Courtesy of susan14509:

Mobisode #5 - “Operation Sleeper”

Jack and Juliet.
Jack is asleep. He wakes up.
Juliet puts her finger up, like ‘shh’.
Juliet - It’s ok.
Jack - What happened?
Juliet - We need to talk, Jack.
Jack - Ok.
Juliet - Ever since I got here, the people in your camp, Sayid, Sawyer, they don’t trust me. They think that I am here to hurt them. And it’s only a matter of time before they figure out…
Jack - I’m not going to let anything happen to you.
Juliet - Thank you. Please let me finish. It’s only a matter of time before they figure out that they’re right.
Jack - What?
Juliet - They shouldn’t trust me. I’m still working for him, for Ben. He sent me here to study the women to find out which ones were pregnant.
Jack - Why?
Juliet - So we can take them. He promised me no one would get hurt.
Jack - He promised you?
Juliet - Listen, Jack.
Jack - How could you? I thought, that you were one of us. I saw it. You wanted to get on that submarine as bad as I did.
Juliet - But I didn’t get on it. And neither did you. Just… I guess I thought that it was actually going to happen. That we would get off this island. I was naïve to think that he would let us.
Jack - Let us? Ben was in a wheelchair. Locke blew up that submarine.
Juliet - Did he?
Jack - So you’re only here because he sent you here?
Juliet - Yeah.
Jack - Why are you telling me this now?
Juliet - Last night we saw, we saw the baby growing inside her. If she’s still on this island in about a month, both of them will be dead. I’ve been living Benjamin Linus’s dream for three years. Three years. It’s time to wake up.

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I'm really looking forward to seeing this one!

Me too, that sounds good.

"I’ve been living Benjamin Linus’s dream for three years. Three years. It’s time to wake up."

Interesting.... or am I the only one that believes the island is created by the mind. It's not in the mind but a manifestation of it. They think therefore it is.
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I think that comment was forshadowing something like this being revealed later on.

Also interesting that they've resurrected the issue of whether it was Locke who blew up the sub.

Again, several time references.
She says both "it's a matter of time" and "three years" twice.

And she ties the three years to "ben's dream", leaving open the door that it's not a solid three years, by conventional non-island time.

When the scenes are this short, every phrase and word is carefully thought out...

Re the sub: I tend to think this is the smoking gun that confirms Locke didn't blow it up. But you never know when Darlton's throwing a red herring.

it'll be interesting to hear the voice inflection but i suspect juliet's
question re locke is implying that locke was coerced/manipulated into blowing up the sub by ben and/or the island. i cant see how it couldn't be him that physically did it.
we saw him go aboard with the C4 in his pack, we saw him apologise to jack, he seems to know that jack 'isn't supposed' to leave the island and his blowing up of the sub is consistant with his other actions in S3
imo

Also interesting that they've resurrected the issue of whether it was Locke who blew up the sub.

I didn't catch that on the first read through but that seems like what was being hinted at. I'm a firm believer that Locke didn't blow up the sub.

I didn't catch that on the first read through but that seems like what was being hinted at. I'm a firm believer that Locke didn't blow up the sub.

Why are you so certain? Locke did attack Sayid in S1 to prevent him using the transceiver to call for help. Blowing up the sub seems consistent to me with his desire to keep everybody on the island.

That said, I'm willing to believe Ben had some plan in mind to sabotage the plan for Jack and Juliet to leave. I just always figured Locke beat him to it.

It was interesting, but another one with Jack?
There are other interesting characters on the show! I'm very disappointed. Hope next week we'll see a different character for a change.

Really, really good one! This helps fill in the blank of how Jack knew of Juliet's plan, even before Kate confronted them.

I also think this casts suspicion on Locke blowing up the sub. Damon or Carlton did point out that we were supposed to wonder why Locke wasn't wet after the explosion.

Wow, awesome. :cool:

Yes, it seems they sure are dropping hints about the sub, between the chess-game mention of it and Juliet's pointed question "Did he?" [Did Locke really blow up the sub]. On the other hand, in the end it could just serve to reinforce how Ben manipulated Locke into blowing it up but the door is open for other possibilities.

Jack sure takes a while to shake off the sleep and focus on what Juliet is saying. It's like the One of Us scene where Kate wakes him up after being knocked out by the gas for 24+ hours - he's all "huh?" He must have had a difficult internship at the hospital! (Well, he would have been 10 years younger then, in any case.)

I think it also shows that Jack had misplaced trust in Juliet when he brought her to camp. It had seemed to be enough that she had desperately wanted to get off the island, per their beachside conversation in one of the later episodes. He seemed really taken aback that she was still in cahoots with Ben. It also further erodes the theory some of the other beachies had that Jack was working for the Others upon his return to camp.

I'm a little disappointed because this is a conversation we had been told about already, so it's not revealing much. We already knew that pregnant women die, that Juliet had been on the island three years, that solving the riddle of the dying pregnant women was Ben's obsession.

It also doesn't solve the riddle of why Jack trusts Juliet.

I'm not sure what this adds to what we already knew, but it does color in Juliet's actions in 'LB' and in 'OOC' in how she handled Kate; and later how she handled Sayid and James. Guilt and shame. She knew those three would be her biggest obstacles in returning to camp. Also, I think she was banking on the fact that Jack truly wanted to believe in her honesty and solidarity with the Losties.

We know that, after this scene, Jack's faith in Juliet was stronger than ever, since he plotted with her alone and kept all his plans secret from the other survivors, trusting only Juliet. I guess her honesty paid off. They seem to be building a strong relationship for these two, based on a lot of mutuality and respect. And there is an intimacy about her coming to him in his sleep. This looks like a prime relationship story for next year.

I was disappointed because this is recounting a conversation we've heard about but didin't see. Then, I thought about how she also was telling Jack that she either a. doesn't believe the sub was blown up or b. she believes Locke blew it up after being manipulated by Ben.
I also thought the "Ben's dream" stateement intriguing. It's a little easier following the time reference in this one.

We know that, after this scene, Jack's faith in Juliet was stronger than ever, since he plotted with her alone and kept all his plans secret from the other survivors, trusting only Juliet. I guess her honesty paid off. They seem to be building a strong relationship for these two, based on a lot of mutuality and respect. And there is an intimacy about her coming to him in his sleep. This looks like a prime relationship story for next year.

I had a similar thought watching the mobisode. I also found it interesting that when Jack started to raise his voice, Juliet kept her calm tone and Jack calmed right down again. That's something we saw before in the glass-walled prison on Alcatraz. That must be Juliet's super-power, she's a Jack-whisperer! :biggrin:

I was disappointed because this is recounting a conversation we've heard about but didin't see. Then, I thought about how she also was telling Jack that she either a. doesn't believe the sub was blown up or b. she believes Locke blew it up after being manipulated by Ben.
I also thought the "Ben's dream" stateement intriguing. It's a little easier following the time reference in this one.

Those were my thoughts as well. Disappointment in the fact that once again, Benry likely hadn't planned to keep his promise to her. Not sure why she'd still believe him, but I suppose her misplaced trust in a controlling authority figure with power like her ex husband ties into her personal issues.

It's also interesting that she's assuming Sun will survive if she gets off the island.How does she know that?

I'm a little disappointed because this is a conversation we had been told about already, so it's not revealing much. We already knew that pregnant women die, that Juliet had been on the island three years, that solving the riddle of the dying pregnant women was Ben's obsession.

It also doesn't solve the riddle of why Jack trusts Juliet.

You know, I hadn't thought about the whole "why does Jack trust Juliet" q until you brought it up. Maybe part of what we are to take from this is that for all of Jack's trust in 'science', he makes as many gut decisions as anyone else, and certainly makes them about people. He makes a gut decision about nearly everyone and sticks to it even when he receives evidence that he should not trust the person.
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It's also interesting that she's assuming Sun will survive if she gets off the island.How does she know that?

I don't think she KNOWS that, but she suspects it. But she is sure that Sun and the baby will both die if they remain on the island.

Remember when Juliet was practically begging Ben to let her leave the island with a woman to test out her theory?

Interesting that once again Juliet is in focus. I'm not sure if that bodes well for her longevity on the show (not that the two have to be connected). I can't decide yet if Juliet is a transitory character or if she's in it for the long haul. Anyway, while this conversation doesn't appear to offer many new revelations, I think it's possible we're on the cusp of understanding some fundamentally important elements of the show. Some things I found interesting:

* Juliet is willing to stay the course with Ben in order to see her own agenda through to the end. I think the wrinkle is Jack. If he wasn't a factor, she would have slitted everyone's throat in the Lostie camp ASAP.

* Juliet's emphasis on living Ben's dream for three years could have multiple layers. It could refer to the fact that she was working on his bogus side project (involving the issues with women dying during childbirth) or it could be pointing once again to how the Island works and time passes by.

* Locke and the sub is pretty interesting. Juliet's response to Jack seems to raise the idea that Locke wasn't the one responsible for the sub being blown up. Three possiblities: She was just being coy, Locke was led to believe he was responsible but in fact someone else blew up the sub (Ben?), or the sub didn't actually blow up and the whole thing was a charade.

Also interesting that they've resurrected the issue of whether it was Locke who blew up the sub.

Or are they saying that the sub has not been blown up?

Interesting that once again Juliet is in focus. I'm not sure if that bodes well for her longevity on the show (not that the two have to be connected). I can't decide yet if Juliet is a transitory character or if she's in it for the long haul.

I don't think she's going anywhere anytime soon. I'm not sure that she'll be there until the very end either, but I can see at least a couple more seasons left for her. If they ever delve into why Aaron must not be raised by an(other) and the tests they performed on Claire, we're going to see another island flashback. Hopefully, they'll touch on Walt's special powers too and Juliet was there as we now know from her previous mobisode.



* Juliet is willing to stay the course with Ben in order to see her own agenda through to the end. I think the wrinkle is Jack. If he wasn't a factor, she would have slitted everyone's throat in the Lostie camp ASAP.


Yes, I think his trust in her paid off, but she's always hated Ben and another important factor really is Sun's baby. I think Juliet was reminded what her mission as a scientist was all about and that life mattered more than Ben's "dream". Pre-island Juliet strikes me as a person who worked very, very hard to get results and seemed very passionate, 100% dedicated to her work and very enthusiastic about furthering her research. On the island, the mousy, insecure woman is transformed into the Ice Queen we know, but because the Island hates Ben, she has to watch pregnant women die and feel powerless about it. Ben won't let her at least try to save them by taking them off the Island and this is her chance to do right. I believed her when she told Jack she was risking her life going back to the beach because she feels she does owe them something.

Having said that, I still think she would slash their throats if they got in the way of going back to Rachel and Julian.

* Locke and the sub is pretty interesting. Juliet's response to Jack seems to raise the idea that Locke wasn't the one responsible for the sub being blown up. Three possiblities: She was just being coy, Locke was led to believe he was responsible but in fact someone else blew up the sub (Ben?), or the sub didn't actually blow up and the whole thing was a charade.

I would bowdown to the people who held on to this theory. I think the sub still being inact is a (remote) possibility and one that might prove interesting now that there's a Boat Of Doom approaching the Island.

It also further erodes the theory some of the other beachies had that Jack was working for the Others upon his return to camp.

It was erroded to a grain of sand to begin with.


I also thought the "Ben's dream" stateement intriguing. It's a little easier following the time reference in this one.

Alice wakes up from a dream in Alice In Wonderland , doesn't she?

Alice wakes up from a dream in Alice In Wonderland , doesn't she?


I wonder if Benry's refusal to allow Juliet to leave the island a part of his twisted desire/dream of making Juliet his new Annie or vision of his mother as Alice?

I really need to finish watching that movie.

There's way more to Juliet than this, and I also believe that she wouldn't hesitate to hurt anyone that gets in her way of getting back to her family - including Jack. She confides in him because no one else trusts her or will listen to her. And I doubt this bodes well for any kind of "relationship" with her and Jack. He's got other things on his mind and it ain't her, especially now. Still, any mobisode with Jack is great!! :)

It was interesting, but another one with Jack?
There are other interesting characters on the show! I'm very disappointed. Hope next week we'll see a different character for a change.

It makes sense that Jack would be featured more since he was with the Others for that missing week. It could also have to do with what actors were contracted to film these, maybe not all negotiated to participate in them, and then of course Jack is teh star.

I also found it interesting that when Jack started to raise his voice, Juliet kept her calm tone and Jack calmed right down again. That's something we saw before in the glass-walled prison on Alcatraz. That must be Juliet's super-power, she's a Jack-whisperer! :biggrin:

W also saw that between Juliet and Michael, in fact, in the other mobisode. She kept her calm, low tone all through what might have been a very disturbing talk with him. BTW,did we ever see Juliet loose her composure???

W also saw that between Juliet and Michael, in fact, in the other mobisode. She kept her calm, low tone all through what might have been a very disturbing talk with him. BTW,did we ever see Juliet loose her composure???

When she dropped the burnt muffins.

W also saw that between Juliet and Michael, in fact, in the other mobisode. She kept her calm, low tone all through what might have been a very disturbing talk with him. BTW,did we ever see Juliet loose her composure???
When she & Jack were working over Colleen, and Jack was asking her to help him with the clamps, she was very rattled then, telling him "I'm not a surgeon". He steadily reassured her, and she assisted him through the surgery. She also lost it when she saw her sister & nephew on the monitor, crying & begging Ben to let her go home. And you can kinda count the scene where she takes the case away from Sawyer...as she's walking away from him & Sayid, you can see her face has a very "WHEW!!", relieved expression.

I agree with Veronica_First, I love the intimacy of this mobisode, and how it promotes the trust and balance of the relationship between Jack & Juliet. She quickly became one of my favorite characters last season, she's so enigmatic & compelling; I love how she calmly handles all the Losties, but especially Jack. Anyone else, he'd likely have flown off the handle and started yelling, but he always seems to keep his cool with Juliet.

And when she almost murdered Ben in his kitchen, which is my favorite Juliet scene. I wish she would just completely lose it, that would be interesting.

I think that Jack and Juliet are calming forces to each other. Maybe that's why they have a good connection. Every time one of them seems to get upset and almost lose it the other one is there to calm them down. Should be interesting to see how this relationship continues the rest of Season 4.

Not to be mean, but I'd like to see attention given to the other characters, its not fair that Jack gets 3 out 5 of these. Sun/Jin/Sayid have alot of stuff they could do, like say Sun tell Jin and Sayid about how she shot Colleen, sometime after Glass Ballerina or more Claire anything really, since shes hardly been shown as others.

But anyway, this one really does explain alot about what Jack/Juliet planned before Greatest Hits, just needs Danielle to show up to complete it.

Interesting they are trying to show us more of Juliet as a character, I'm interested to see where she goes in season 4.
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It's also interesting that she's assuming Sun will survive if she gets off the island.How does she know that?

I think she just thinks it could work, and didn't she say this to Ben in the one of us flashback.

Not to be mean, but I'd like to see attention given to the other characters, its not fair that Jack gets 3 out 5 of these. Sun/Jin/Sayid have alot of stuff they could do, like say Sun tell Jin and Sayid about how she shot Colleen, sometime after Glass Ballerina or more Claire anything really, since shes hardly been shown as others.



I really hope we get a mobisode featuring Sun dealing with the aftershock of shooting Colleen. I'd prefer it's with Jin, but at this point, I'd take her talking to Vincent as long as we get to see Yunjin working that quiet magic of hers. ;)

I really hope we get a mobisode featuring Sun dealing with the aftershock of shooting Colleen. I'd prefer it's with Jin, but at this point, I'd take her talking to Vincent as long as we get to see Yunjin working that quiet magic of hers. ;)

heheh same here, Yunjin really has got that magic. :biggrin:

Yeah Jin would be a better choice, I'm sure theres something to explore Post Glass Ballerina for them, since well they were missing in action for over 5 episodes.

heheh same here, Yunjin really has got that magic. :biggrin:

Yeah Jin would be a better choice, I'm sure theres something to explore Post Glass Ballerina for them, since well they were missing in action for over 5 episodes.


Tragically.

It makes sense that Jack would be featured more since he was with the Others for that missing week. It could also have to do with what actors were contracted to film these, maybe not all negotiated to participate in them, and then of course Jack is teh star.
Yes, Jack was with the Others for a week and is nice to see what happened, but his story is not the only one with "missing pieces".
I hope all of the main actors had agreed in doing this mobisodes, it would be awesome to see more of their characters stories.

I thought the mobisode was excellent, and I can appreciate that other characters should be shown. However, as long as I get what I have been getting, especially like the last three, then I'll be happy, and I won't care which character is front and center. Although, I'm always happy to see Jack.

I think the mobisodes, for the most part, have been intriguing and compelling. That's all I can ask.

As for my feelings on the mobisode itself, it was an interesting conversation between Jack and Juliet. Juliet was clearly letting Jack know, initially, that she definitely wanted off the island and at any cost. If that meant throwing back in with Ben, then that's what she was going to do. However, after seeing Sun's baby and perhaps spending time with the Losties, I think Juliet started to remember the woman she was in the real world - the one who gave good news and helped couples bring new lives into the world and not someone who held people captive and conducted creepy experiments.

Jack trusting her wasn't a wrong choice, necessarily. He DID see good in Juliet, and he DID see her desperation to get back home. He didn't misread those aspects of Juliet, but then again, he hasn't been trapped on the island for three years with Ben, so there was no way to gauge the extent to which Juliet would go to get home. Jack doesn't know everything that Juliet knows. Heck, Juliet actually has a working knowledge of Smokey. Now THERE'S a missing piece I would love to see explained, and if it's another Jack and Juliet mobisode, that's fine with me. Like I said, as long as questions, even small ones are answered, I'm happy.

Lastly, I think Juliet also knows much more about the island than she is letting on. She may even know about Jacob. How do you spend three years on the island and not know something? Her eluding to Jack about the sub and whether Locke blew it up was more than just interesting. I believe something will be revealed about that in season four. (If the writer's strike ends, that is.)

There's way more to Juliet than this, and I also believe that she wouldn't hesitate to hurt anyone that gets in her way of getting back to her family - including Jack. She confides in him because no one else trusts her or will listen to her. And I doubt this bodes well for any kind of "relationship" with her and Jack. He's got other things on his mind and it ain't her, especially now. Still, any mobisode with Jack is great!! :)I like EM a lot, but I think that Juliet will have a tragic end to her character. I don't know if she'll end up betraying Jack or she'll die helping him, but it's going to be something like that. I think that she will end up betraying Jack...

I was suprised that Jack didn't bite her head off as he does with other charactes that do not do what he says :) I guess it speaks well of their relationship.
Like some other people I got the impression that Juliet knows that Ben had something to do with the sub being destroyed, but not necesarily that the sub still exists. I really think she's in cohoots with other Others against Ben, eg. Richard who went agaisnt Ben and helped Locke.
I don't think we really learned a lot from this mobisode, but I always wondered how this conversation took place, and to be honest I imagined it with Jack yelling a lot.
I also got the idea that maybe there is hope for the pregnant women on the island. I hope that's true :D.
I have always questioned why Jack trusted Juliet, the whole "I saw it in you eyes" didn't completely do it for me. But this mobisode kind of complements ;)
Finally, I got to say that Juliet looked very comfortable in Jack's tent....

* Locke and the sub is pretty interesting. Juliet's response to Jack seems to raise the idea that Locke wasn't the one responsible for the sub being blown up. Three possiblities: She was just being coy, Locke was led to believe he was responsible but in fact someone else blew up the sub (Ben?), or the sub didn't actually blow up and the whole thing was a charade.

Interesting. I didn't think the whole sub could have been a fake.
Maybe that's why he said "Sorry.". Not for blowing it up, but for starting a charade on him.

I don't know that Juliet knows that Sun will live if she gets off the Island. She just knows that Sun will die if she doesn't leave. I'm sure Sun would agree to take the chance since she knows about what happens to the pregnant women.
All of this knowledge that Juliet has about pregnant women comes from preEMA and so the same scenarios might not apply. I don't know if she's thought about that or not.
I think you guys are right, though, about her knowing more and not sharing,
I just think she's gonna go with whomever can get her off the Island or at least who she thinks has the best chance of doing so. She also knows that Ben is a master manipulator and that's what makes her think that either the sub wasn't actually blown up or he made Locke think that blowing up the sub wasn't what he wanted him to do.

I like EM a lot, but I think that Juliet will have a tragic end to her character. I don't know if she'll end up betraying Jack or she'll die helping him, but it's going to be something like that. I think that she will end up betraying Jack...

I agree that Juliet probably won't have a happy ending on the show but I don't think that she's going to betray Jack. It would only be a rehash of her season 3 story line and therefore totally repetitive IMO. It's very likely that she's going to die though and I hate it.

Why would Juliet betray Jack? She's been shown as a person of rather strong personal integrity. Look at the sacrifices she has endured out of love for her sister. And in this mobisode we saw that, far from having the capacity to betray Jack, she was troubled by her mission to act as a mole and her conscience was finally shattered by her compassion for Sun and the baby. If anything, we've seen that Juliet is a very intrinsincally good person, who has done some ethically questionable things in very dire circumstances. But, aside from the villainous Ben, who have we seen her actually betray?

The name Juliet certainly doesn't imply betrayal either. It implies being trapped tragically by fate and by passionate, unexpected love. I sure hope that's where they take her character, because I want to see them use the resources of this stellar actress to its fullest limit.

I think Juliet's transformation from the mousy clinical research geek pre Island to the Ice Queen who is just as manipulative as Ben points to the tragic end her name implies. Her supposed hatred of Ben has made her just like him.

In this mobisode, she is confessing her mole status to gain his trust even more. She has pinned her star to his wagon for now. It kind of reminds me of (and I hate to admit it) Survivor with the alliances and the self serving agendas of the contestants.

IMHO, she is not to be trusted by ANYONE, she is only "with" someone if it suits her purposes and furthers her own agenda. She may indeed have feelings for Jack as indicated by her kiss, however, part of me feels the kiss was only a way of emotionally knifing Kate, not anything more. She seems to definitely enjoy making Kate twist in the wind--I can't forget she handcuffed herself to Kate and traipsed through the jungle all the while attempting to wheedle information out of her, and only when her own behind was threatened by the monster did she give up the ruse. I also remember her odd demeanor in TTLG when Kate demands to talk to Jack alone to tell him about Naomi. If Juliet was truly that convinced that Kate should know the secret plan a woman as strong as Juliet would just tell her the plan, not wait for Jack's "permission". By dangling that carrot "I think we should tell her Jack" in front of Kate, she is again twisting the knife into Kate that Jack is "with" Juliet and not Kate. Masterful and cold, just like Ben.

While it is obvious that I am not sympathetic to the Juliet character, I respect that others may feel differently and I can see merit in their defense of Juliet. She is strong, and has endured so much and that has made her what she is. She did indeed help Jack and the Losties but I don't think it was so much any altruistic act on her part, it just happened to further her own agenda too.

I enjoy reading what others think of her because it is fascinating that we can see the same scenes and take such differing translations away from it.

IMHO, she is not to be trusted by ANYONE, she is only "with" someone if it suits her purposes and furthers her own agenda.

I totally agree with you on this. I love Juliet, but what you say is true. I believe that Juliet has grown to learn from her experience to NOT belong or affiliate with anyone. She plays her cards right and allies herself with whom she feels her interests or benefits lie with. That is not to say she is necessarily evil, but because of what she has gone through, she has learned to only watch out for number one, and I can not say I blame. I don't particularly think that at this point she is going to betray the Losties, in a sense, out of and evil nature or vice, but if she turns on them one way or another it will be because her alliance will need to shift to where it will suit her best. She might have become somewhat emotionally attached to the Losties, whether be it her growing feelings for Jack, or as we saw here after her experience with Sun, but I don't think she feels part of the group, and doesn't feel any loyalty to them. We saw that she had a "thing" with Goodwin and felt bad for Colleen, but a few days later had no trouble shooting Pickett because it served her plans and agenda. We might want to think she feels more attached with the Losties because we so far see them as the "good guys", but Juliet is the most interesting imo because she is the free agent who can switch sides because she only works for number one, and again she doesn't do it or if she does anything to purposely hurt anyone but to achieve her goal.

At the very least, this conversation with Juliet should have put Jack on high alert. She's basically confirming that she will do whatever it takes to see her agenda through to the end. She admits to hiccups, basically minor crisis of conscience, but in the end she's pretty resolute. I think she gives Jack a bit of a free pass, but everyone else is vulnerable to her schemes. In the end, I have to agreee with those who suggest her fate will mirror the literary Juliet. She'll probably be "redeemed" in the end, but at the cost of her own life. Or, ala Judas Iscariot, she sells everyone out, is given her "thirty pieces of silver" as a reward, and can't live with herself-commiting suicide.

She may indeed have feelings for Jack as indicated by her kiss, however, part of me feels the kiss was only a way of emotionally knifing Kate, not anything more.

I respect your opinion but do you think that's realistic? Just try to get into her head in that scene. The way you described it, the inner dialogue must have sounded like this:

Juliet: Hmm, Sawyer wants to go back to the beach. This is my chance to gain even more of Jack's trust. Who the hell cares if I'm going to die? Oh, there's Kate. I can't stand her. I have an idea. I'm gonna go kiss Jack just to make her jealous.

Lost isn't a high school flick. Do you really believe that's more realistic than this:

Juliet: Sawyer wants to go back to the beach to help Sayid, Jin and Bernard. My people and me included have done some horrible things to these people. This is my chance to redeem myself and start over again. There's a good chance that I'm going to die and before I go, I want Jack to know how I really feel about him.

I also remember her odd demeanor in TTLG when Kate demands to talk to Jack alone to tell him about Naomi. If Juliet was truly that convinced that Kate should know the secret plan a woman as strong as Juliet would just tell her the plan, not wait for Jack's "permission". By dangling that carrot "I think we should tell her Jack" in front of Kate, she is again twisting the knife into Kate that Jack is "with" Juliet and not Kate.That's a different take on it (I'm assuming you mean the scene in The Brig). I didn't see that she's trying to play Kate there at all. I thought she was feeling that it wasn't right for Jack to continue to withhold vital information from the adults whose lives were in danger, who had every right to that information. By that line of thinking, I wonder, do you also think that she had manipulated Jack behind the scenes to behave so unethically - and not give this vital information to the rest of the group? Jack treated Kate (and by extension, all the rest of the group) with complete disrespect in that scene, as if he and Juliet alone had the right to know information about a danger that threatened them all. It was the ultimate elitist alliance. If you follow this line of thinking, what does that really say about Jack after all - that he's so easily manipulated by Juliet, and that he agreed so completely with that plan?

I can see the logic in the idea that Juliet may be scheming, except that it's in complete contrast to everything we knew about her pre-island. She chose an altrustic profession and was the ultimate loving sister. All of that speaks to a fundamentally good person, a loyal person and a loving person. She may have changed due to the stresses of her captivity, but her underlying personality seems indelible. That's why I think the hints of her being a master manipulator are all red herrings, because if she really is, then her story has no coherence.

I can see the logic in the idea that Juliet may be scheming, except that it's in complete contrast to everything we knew about her pre-island. She chose an altrustic profession and was the ultimate loving sister. All of that speaks to a fundamentally good person, a loyal person and a loving person. She may have changed due to the stresses of her captivity, but her underlying personality seems indelible. That's why I think the hints of her being a master manipulator are all red herrings, because if she really is, then her story has no coherence.

I totally agree with your assessment Veronica. When it comes to Juliet's story line I'm sure that the Losties will always be suspicious of her and TPTB will give us reasons not to trust her (like the ending of OOU). Still, I think that she's never going to betray them and it wouldn't surprise me in the least if she dies while proving her loyalty to either Jack or the Losties. She certainly has done some questionable things in the past but she has a good heart. She sacrificed her own happiness to save her sisters life. Yes, she betrayed Ben but who can blame her? He kept her on that island and stole 3 years of her life.

Juliet: Hmm, Sawyer wants to go back to the beach. This is my chance to gain even more of Jack's trust. Who the hell cares if I'm going to die? Oh, there's Kate. I can't stand her. I have an idea. I'm gonna go kiss Jack just to make her jealous.

And I agree here that this is just an implausible scenario. Everyone's life was in the balance, including Juliet's. Even if this were a silly soap opera of girls fighting over guys, which I'm (usually) sure it's not, this was certainly not the moment an intelligent woman like Juliet would have chosen to do something like that.

Juliet coming to Jack's tent to unburden herself and tell him the TRUTH - that's what happened in this mobisode. If it were only another manipulation to gain his trust, why tell him the truth? Why not some other useful lie? I think this did deepen Jack's trust in her, and we saw in the finale, both in his longing look as she walked away and in the way he asked about her first when Hurley phoned from the beach, that she succeeded. She means a great deal to Jack now. She has strengthened her alliance with Jack, and this scene shows partly how she did it, but there's nothing here to indicate her intentions towards him are anything less than honorable. She's capable of using her intelligence in devious ways, I'm sure, and I'm sure they'll continue to play with us that way, but I'd be very disappointed if they invalidated her basic character just to make a clever twist in the story.

I respect your opinion but do you think that's realistic? Just try to get into her head in that scene. The way you described it, the inner dialogue must have sounded like this:

Juliet: Hmm, Sawyer wants to go back to the beach. This is my chance to gain even more of Jack's trust. Who the hell cares if I'm going to die? Oh, there's Kate. I can't stand her. I have an idea. I'm gonna go kiss Jack just to make her jealous.

Lost isn't a high school flick. Do you really believe that's more realistic than this:

Juliet: Sawyer wants to go back to the beach to help Sayid, Jin and Bernard. My people and me included have done some horrible things to these people. This is my chance to redeem myself and start over again. There's a good chance that I'm going to die and before I go, I want Jack to know how I really feel about him.

I have to agree about the highschool hijinks. If anyone was guilty of that it was Kate (the whole spoon licking escapade comes to mind).

I think Juliet's transformation from the mousy clinical research geek pre Island to the Ice Queen who is just as manipulative as Ben points to the tragic end her name implies. Her supposed hatred of Ben has made her just like him.

In this mobisode, she is confessing her mole status to gain his trust even more. She has pinned her star to his wagon for now. It kind of reminds me of (and I hate to admit it) Survivor with the alliances and the self serving agendas of the contestants.

IMHO, she is not to be trusted by ANYONE, she is only "with" someone if it suits her purposes and furthers her own agenda. She may indeed have feelings for Jack as indicated by her kiss, however, part of me feels the kiss was only a way of emotionally knifing Kate, not anything more. She seems to definitely enjoy making Kate twist in the wind--I can't forget she handcuffed herself to Kate and traipsed through the jungle all the while attempting to wheedle information out of her, and only when her own behind was threatened by the monster did she give up the ruse. I also remember her odd demeanor in TTLG when Kate demands to talk to Jack alone to tell him about Naomi. If Juliet was truly that convinced that Kate should know the secret plan a woman as strong as Juliet would just tell her the plan, not wait for Jack's "permission". By dangling that carrot "I think we should tell her Jack" in front of Kate, she is again twisting the knife into Kate that Jack is "with" Juliet and not Kate. Masterful and cold, just like Ben.



I agree with you that Juliet has become like Ben she has learned how to lie and deceive people around her. But that's basically it, Ben wanted to kidnap pregnant women, Juliet didn't.
From the mobisode, I got the idea that she confessed because she felt guilty and bad for Sun and her baby. We saw in One of Us how upset she was when Sabine died. As strong as Juliet is, she's not used to her patients dying, she has said so herself.
Juliet kissing Jack to make Kate mad, I don't think so. Why would she care what Kate thinks? Juliet her own relationship with Jack, maybe she thought kissing him goodbye was her last chance to let him know how she felt Since in the mobisode conversation she told him Ben was the only reason she was there.
About the Naomi-Kate-Juliet-Jack conversation, if you think about this it's another example of how different these women are. Kate has shown that she will do what she wants, and that Jack, Sawyer or Sayid for that matter do not tell her what to do. Juliet on the other hand,is not threaten by Jack's leadership position she wants to be his partner and work with him, not against him and what he thinks it's better. Plus, sadly, Kate doesn't need anyone's help to torture her emotionally.

I liked this mobisode and while I love seeing anything with Jack, I think it's about time we saw everyone else too (Sawyer, Sayid, Kate, Sun, Jin, Desmond, Claire, even Vincent). Actually, it's kind of weird that we haven't seen EL or JH in one of these, as they, along with MF, have been highly prominent in the show before. Just nothing triangle related please, I couldn't be more sick of the so called "love stories" of those three.

I agree with everyone who thinks that Juliet will ally herself with whoever she thinks can get her off the island, no matter what that means. I do however think she has a soft spot for Jack, which, may or may not influence her choices. I also think that seeing Sun's baby may have brought back memories of who she used to be and those memories might have had an effect on her. Whether the effect is permanent or temporary still remains to be seen.

I like Rabid's theory that she'll end up like Shakespeare's Juliet. I think there's a strong possibility she'll sell her soul to the Freighties to get off the island and end up committing suicide in the future. Perhaps the guilt in a future FF will be stronger than what she felt when she was with Sun and she decides to stop living with it. I'm also partial to the theory that if any Lostie manages to get off island with Jack and Kate (or a little before/after), their lives post island will be miserable, and that could possibly play a part in Juliet's future.

I like Rabid's theory that she'll end up like Shakespeare's Juliet. I think there's a strong possibility she'll sell her soul to the Freighties to get off the island and end up committing suicide in the future..

How is this like Shakespeare's Juliet? She never betrayed anyone (except those in her family who deserved it). In fact, she concocted a plan out of the purest kind of love, that went awry despite her best intentions, and she only killed herself when all was lost for the one she loved. Shakespeare's Juliet was the personification of naive innocence, who tried but was never able to out-think the manipulators that surrounded her.

I meant in the sense that she would commit suicide. Didn't mean their stories would be similar or that their motivations would be the same, just that their deaths would be brought about by their own hands

I meant in the sense that she would commit suicide. Didn't mean their stories would be similar or that their motivations would be the same, just that their deaths would be brought about by their own hands

Oh, I see. But "death by one's own hand" covers almost half of the major characters in Shakespeare, one way or another, so I hope it has implications beyond that. That's not what defines Juliet. Love is Juliet's defining quality, not suicide.

Oh, I see. But "death by one's own hand" covers almost half of the major characters in Shakespeare, one way or another, so I hope it has implications beyond that. That's not what defines Juliet. Love is Juliet's defining quality, not suicide.

That is true, but if Lost's Juliet had a story that closely mirrored Shakespeare's Juliet, that wouldn't be very original, IMHO. We all know that names are not picked at random by the Lost writers, but what we don't know for sure is the extent of similiraties their characters will have with the ones that carried the name first.

I guess if Juliet killed herself for Jack, her story would be more similar to the original Juliet's. It's a possibility too. But it would be a rehash of Charlie's death, who walked willingly toward certain death for Claire's sake.

Well, I apologize if I made anyone upset regarding my comments about Juliet. And I appreciate you view and agree that it is totally possible. Again it is a matter of how we view the character. I saw Juliet being upset over Sabine's death, as, yes she was upset her patient died but she also knew it meant Ben wouldn't let her leave the island because she hadn't fixed the problem yet. So she had two reasons to be sad. One for her patient, one for herself.

I think that any of us who see Juliet as all good or all evil are not giving her enough credit. She is a smart, strong woman (now) and just because she shows a soft side doesn't mean she can't be cruel as well.

Agreed. They'd never do a perfect parallel of any story. Juliet didn't kill herself for Romeo, of course. She pretended to kill herself so that she could be taken to Romeo later, and they could live happily ever after. But the plan got mucked up when Romeo returned, thought she was dead and then killed himself. She killed herself after that in despair.

I think we can see three possible parallels with the famous Juliet - the theme of love and romance, the idea of trying to compete in a web of manipulations and lies, and lastly the theme of tragic death. But the thing that this name has always been primarily associated with is love, particularly tragic love. There are infinite ways those traits can be integrated into this fictional Juliet, without ever copying the exact same story. For one thing, she's not fourteen!

All this talk about Juliet dying is depressing me :(. But to be honest I do think she's gonna bite the dust before the series is over :(, but seing that many of Lost fans think like that gives me hope that we will be completely wrong :p

Ben must have had some amazing control over Juliet. She kills Danny, and almost gets put to death, but Ben is still pissed and has her marked. They Others seem to know that Jack is protecting her over the whole Juliet telling Jack to kill Ben (which then never comes up again after stranger in a strange land), yet Ben can still get her to go to the camp and it is only then she is upset enough to go through on betraying him

Ben must have had some amazing control over Juliet. She kills Danny, and almost gets put to death, but Ben is still pissed and has her marked. They Others seem to know that Jack is protecting her over the whole Juliet telling Jack to kill Ben (which then never comes up again after stranger in a strange land), yet Ben can still get her to go to the camp and it is only then she is upset enough to go through on betraying him

From her FBs you can tell Juliet was easily controlled, by her husband and then Ben. Why would Ben trust Juliet to go the Losties beach after she tried to kill him? I don't know, I guess because if Jack made the effort of saving Juliet and protecting her from her own people, Ben knew that Jack would protect Juliet from the Losties too, which did happen...but I'm just guessing.

Ben must have had some amazing control over Juliet. She kills Danny, and almost gets put to death, but Ben is still pissed and has her marked. They Others seem to know that Jack is protecting her over the whole Juliet telling Jack to kill Ben (which then never comes up again after stranger in a strange land), yet Ben can still get her to go to the camp and it is only then she is upset enough to go through on betraying him

Yeah, he did. I'm beginning to think Danny wasn't the person Juliet was meant to put a bullet in. I think it was actually James. I could be wrong of course, but I think when she saw Alex on the monitor with Kate and James, she changed her mind. Plus, I got the impression she didn't care for Danny all that much.

Juliet, thankfully, continues to be a mystery, and I believe the writers will continue to toy with whom she'll be loyal to in reaching her agenda to get off that island. Above all else, that is her goal, understandably.

Ben must have had some amazing control over Juliet. She kills Danny, and almost gets put to death, but Ben is still pissed and has her marked. They Others seem to know that Jack is protecting her over the whole Juliet telling Jack to kill Ben (which then never comes up again after stranger in a strange land), yet Ben can still get her to go to the camp and it is only then she is upset enough to go through on betraying him

Interesting comparison. The only similarity I see between Juliet with the Losties and with the Others, is that the leaders of both groups exerted their influence with members of their group to protect her when she was in jeopardy.

However, I like the way she reacted to Jack's assurance of protection in the mobisode. She thanked him and asked him to let her finish. What I see here is Juliet trying to take back her own selfhood. She's a doctor who, as she told Sun, used to help people conceive and enjoyed giving them good news. She's not going to be part of Ben's plot any longer. When Kate confronted Jack, which would have been after the conversation in the mobisode, she urged Jack to tell Kate - said that Kate should know - so she didn't seem entirely comfortable with being part of Jack's secret plan either.

Certainly, her decision to go back with Sawyer to try to help the men on the beach in the finale is uniquely her own, made for her own reasons and nobody else's IMO. Like Sawyer, she believes she has things to make up for. Sawyer made a point of telling Jack clearly, with words, that his desire to go back to the beach was in no way intended to interfere with Jack's leadership priorities. I thought Juliet's kiss was, at least in part, meant to tell Jack the same thing, along with a few other message perhaps. Given that she and Jack were shown to communicate extremely well in the mobisode, I'm now assuming that Jack understood whatever Juliet meant to convey by that kiss.

After reading through this entire thread, I realized that Juliet is probably one of if not the most conflicted characters. She started out wanting to help people, was extremely disappointed because she couldn't. Then was given a chance to help her sister but in the process doomed her own fate for a while. She was given another chance with the sub only to see Locke(or Ben) take that away. Now I think she's been given a chance to make an ultimate decision between the losties (who I think she perceives as generally good people) and the others (who aren't necessarily good people). That's why she confides in Jack. I think her fate is now tied to the losties. She's made her decision. Now whether she dies for her cause or not we'll have to see. I hope not...

Shakespeare's Juliet was the personification of naive innocence, who tried but was never able to out-think the manipulators that surrounded her.


To me that doesn't sound like our Juliet at all (on the island), but I agree that she might have a tragic ending like the original Juliet. She certainly is a complex character! I'm just not sold on the idea that she's picked her "team" though. I think it's like what was said earlier, that she really only just looks out for #1. As for the kiss, why couldn't she have been doing multiple things, telling him goodbye and I like you and snubbing Kate. To me it's very apparent that she likes Jack and also that she does not like Kate with Jack. She is not above human nature, even if it's immature. I know plenty of adults who act that way. I really like this character, but in real life I would never ever trust her. I wonder how the writers could change my opinion of her; hm, the only way I'd believe that she's for the losties is if she died for them...which brings me to the beginning of my post - kinda like a "circle" ;)

The other parallel with Juliet's namesake is that she fell in love with someone on the opposing side of a feud that had become deadly. Juliet is from the Other's camp, and Jack is representative of the 815 survivors. They've been deadly enemies and yet now they seem to be getting cosy and sharing confidences, even a kiss. I believe the writers will continue to develop these two as a romantic pairing. However, I do suspect that Juliet's fate is ultimately doomed in this story.

What makes Juliet a compelling character is her capacity for duplicity and deception even though we also see positive qualities as well, and can have sympathy for her plight and what she's fighting to achieve. The writers are likely going to continue to keep her loyalties in question for some time. However, I don't really get the vibe that she's innately self-serving and coldly ruthless. We've had scenes which show she's anything but. She IS desperate though, and that lends an unpredictability to her actions.

I really enjoyed this scene. It's intimate and frank. And it fills in a missing piece of the timeline.

I also found it interesting that Jack scoffed so scornfully at the notion of Juliet trusting Ben's promise. It confirms for me that Jack knew it was naive to trust Ben all along. He certainly didn't prior to TMFT, and thus it calls into question his claim that Kate made him trust the Others, and his acceptance of Ben's promise that he would release Kate and Sayid as soon as he was gone on the sub.

I believe, (and it's just my opinion) it shows that he never truly trusted Ben's word, but was willing to pretend to do so in order to ensure that ride off the island.

I also found it interesting that Jack scoffed so scornfully at the notion of Juliet trusting Ben's promise. It confirms for me that Jack knew it was naive to trust Ben all along. He certainly didn't prior to TMFT, and thus it calls into question his claim that Kate made him trust the Others, and his acceptance of Ben's promise that he would release Kate and Sayid as soon as he was gone on the sub.
I believe, (and it's just my opinion) it shows that he never truly trusted Ben's word, but was willing to pretend to do so in order to ensure that ride off the island.

in TMFT jack thought that ben was going to keep his promise to let him go! he kept his promise to help kate and sawyer to get off the alcatraz and HE also kept his promise and stopped juliet's trial! so back then jack had reasons to expect ben to keep his promise!

in this mobisode jack wasnt sure of ben's motives anymore coz the sub blew up and they gassed him and left the othersville and also left juliet behind! when he said "ben was in a wheelchair and locke blew up the sub" he sounded like he was trying to convince himself that locke did it but on the other hand i'm sure after the sub blew up jack remembered his chess game with ben and what ben told to him about leaving the island! and after juliet said "did he?" he didnt say anything back, like he was also thinking the same thing but didnt want to believe it!


Juliet - They shouldn’t trust me. I’m still working for him, for Ben. He sent me here to study the women to find out which ones were pregnant.
Jack - Why?
Juliet - So we can take them. He promised me no one would get hurt.
Jack - He promised you?

also jack never trusted ben when it comes to kidnapping pregnant women! juliet tells that ben sent her to study pregnant women so he can come and take the pregnant women and adds that he promised her that noone get hurt... after this explanation, after finding out that ben was still planning to kidnapp his friends, its normal that he didnt trust ben and surprised to hear that juliet did!

...

as for the "juliet calmed jack down as she always does and he didnt yell at juliet even after she told him that she was planning to betray them" comments...
first, it was midnight and everyone was sleeping... juliet was talking in whispers and jack lower his voice for the same reason... to not wake anyone up...
second, he was sleeping and as soon as he woke up he learned that juliet was working with ben!!! (this mobisode reminded me the scene where kate started to tell jack that the others gassed them and left, immediatly after he woke up...it took him a while to gather his thoughts) that was something jack didnt expect to hear right after he woke up from his sleep in the middle of the night, so it's understandable that he was shocked and couldnt believe what he's hearing!

The trust issue always feels like a gaping plot hole. Jack had ample reason not to believe Ben when he abandoned Sayid and Kate with him as captives. He also had no basis to trust Juliet, certainly not enough to bring her into the heart of the camp and make her (and only her) the keeper of his secrets. By the same token, Ben had no reason to trust Juliet by sending her to the camp as his mole, nor did Juliet have reason to trust Ben to protect her in that situation.

The misplaced trust is necessary to keep the plot rolling along, I guess, but it makes the characters look a little weak in the head at times. It's an odd mix to combine supposed surgical brilliance (and a vast assortment of other unlikely skills) with childlike trust in people who've been shown as duplicitous time and again.

The trust issue always feels like a gaping plot hole.

ITA!
it was naive of jack to trust ben and juliet even ben kept his promise twice or juliet told him that she's a prisoner too and showed how much she hates ben and wanted to get off the island as bad as jack and the losties!


The misplaced trust is necessary to keep the plot rolling along, I guess, but it makes the characters look a little weak in the head at times.


yeah one day you see the one character show no trust to a certain character, the other day he/she acts the opposite :confused:

we can say that ben knew that juliet wanted to get off the island badly and ben was the only one who could make it happen so maybe this could explain why ben trusted juliet but a character like ben shouldnt put his whole trust into that and ignore the possibilty of a betrayel!
same goes with jack... yes i can see that he had some reasons to choose to trust ben and juliet to an extent, but he should also remembered that those were the ppl who tried to manipulate him to do the surgery just a week ago!

Certainly, her decision to go back with Sawyer to try to help the men on the beach in the finale is uniquely her own, made for her own reasons and nobody else's IMO.

I think the decision to go back to the beach might have been the first real, independent decision of Juliet's life. Prior to the island, she was under the thumb of a man she'd once (presumably) loved and trusted, unable to free herself to pursue her own goals. Once on the island she eventually found herself in a similar position, but worse--completely under Ben's thumb, deprived of even the solace of her sister's company. I think that was the first decision we've seen her make that wasn't coerced to some extent and that couldn't have been taken just to further her goal of getting home.

we can say that ben knew that juliet wanted to get off the island badly and ben was the only one who could make it happen so maybe this could explain why ben trusted juliet but a character like ben shouldnt put his whole trust into that and ignore the possibilty of a betrayel!
same goes with jack... yes i can see that he had some reasons to choose to trust ben and juliet to an extent, but he should also remembered that those were the ppl who tried to manipulate him to do the surgery just a week ago!

Ben trusted because he believed he knew her all the way through, and that she would never sacrifice even the smallest chance to go home. But Ben had seen Juliet at close quarters for three years; it's reasonable that he'd think Juliet would go on acting in the same way she always had, especially since her best chance to break way--by getting Jack to kill Ben--had failed.

Jack, on the other hand, doesn't have three years of experience with Juliet, and he isn't particularly intuitive; except with Charlie, we've rarely seen Jack exhibit much deep insight into others. Rather, he's always being surprised, even by those closest to him. His view of others tends to be black/white. His hatred of the Others is pretty intense. I kind of understand, based on SIASL, why Jack began to trust Juliet, but I'm not sure I've seen enough to understand why he goes on trusting her once he gets evidence that his initial understanding of her is flawed, as in this mobisode. Either he knows her far better than has been shown--and how is that possible?--or he's really come to feel a great deal for this woman, and he's prepared to give her the kind of slack and understanding we haven't seen him show before. Of course I trust Juliet--but that's another matter.

Jack's decision to trust Ben, both about the sub ride and about freeing Kate and Sayid, remains a mystery to me. The only conclusion I can reach is that Jack really, desperately wanted off that island, at least as badly as did Juliet, and he trusted Ben because trusting Ben was his only hope of getting on that sub. His trust can't have been based on anything he'd actually seen of Ben.

I think Jack has always trusted Juliet somewhat. There are tentative hints of it to me even as early as when he first walks to the glass in ATOTC but she just walks away and it's gone. I really don't know or understand why he trusts her, an instinct maybe that you can see his head sometimes overrule or question, but it's always been an element of their dynamic. It was a pattern for a while- he seems to be trusting her some, she throws him a curveball (manipulation and not answering his questions after she said he could trust her in ATOTC, asking him to kill Ben after flirting in TCOL), he backs off, then it comes back (EMFH, SIASL). I guess somewhere through SIASL he came to understand her or her situation enough that curveballs like this revelation don't have the same impact now? I don't know. We missed all their time in Othersville so it's hard to tell when he really started to consistently trust her and care enough to want to protect her.

Ben and Juliet's relationship and trust is based on years of friendship and betrayal and lies and shifting alliances and mutual goals and differing goals etc. I'm just hoping for another flashback to get a better grasp on exactly why he didn't see her betrayal coming.

I don't think Jack ever truly trusted Ben. But Jack looks at things rationally. All of the promises or deals Ben made with Jack in Othersville he kept. To think that he just wouldn't keep his next one doesn't follow logical pattern. And after going through with so many bigger deals, why would Jack think that Ben would cherry pick such a minor one to not follow through on just because? I think that logic combined with a chance to go for rescue would be enough to quell his doubts long enough to get him on the sub. But as Juliet pointed out, they didn't actually get on the sub. And Jack knows how manipulative Ben can be- in addition to what he already knew, the Others have since disappeared without warning or explanation, Juliet has just told him Ben's latest plan for the survivors and Juliet's now turning on Ben. I don't think that just because Juliet was able to raise doubts about who was really behind it now means that Jack didn't think Ben would let Kate and Sayid leave then.

I really enjoyed this scene. It's intimate and frank.
'Intimate and frank' is a great description. They talk. Like adult people do. She explains her side- why and the plan, details included. He feels betrayed, he expresses that, and asks his questions. I do think he caught her off guard with 'so you're only here because he sent you here?'. She knows how to handle his anger and their normal conversations, even on difficult subjects like her Others' actions, but I don't think she really expected a question like that or knew what he expected (particularly considering what she'd just told him). It was personal and about them. Her 'yeah' was safe and I agree not true.

However, I like the way she reacted to Jack's assurance of protection in the mobisode. She thanked him and asked him to let her finish. What I see here is Juliet trying to take back her own selfhood.
I liked this as well. I get where Jack was coming from- she came to him in the middle of the night and with what she was saying the obvious immediate conclusion would be that she was worried or scared. I liked his quick reassurance and I liked that she did acknowledge it positively for that reason. I don't think she was trying to reclaim her selfhood though- I think going back to the beach in the finale was that first step- I think she was trying to reclaim their more equal dynamics. She came to him with important information. I don't think she wants his first reaction to be 'don't worry, I'll protect you'. I think she prefers when they're doing things together like getting Ben to let them go home or the finale plan. Did she need his protection- yes, briefly. But it shouldn't become their default dynamic. Accepting needing to be protected by him all the time is just another form of being below him.

I don't think Jack fully trusts Juliet, especially now, and as far as protection - she may have a hard time with that one now, even though she thought she was doing the right thing. There's more to Juliet, and I still think when all is said and done, she is going to be the cause of something really bad - on purpose. And as far as Jack, I think he's shown way more intuitiveness and insight, as well as care and concern, for the other Losties, than some on the island. And his insight into Juliet and whatever she may be up to will not be an exception to that. And some are so transparent.

If Jack doesn't fully trust Juliet, I wonder how to explain the fact that he confided only in her, to the exclusion of all the people he crashed in the plane with, about the impending danger they all faced. It's hard to explain why Jack trusts Juliet so implicitly, so much more than he has ever trusted any of his other "friends", but it seems obvious that at this point, he does trust her the most. It seems the honesty of the encounter shown here might be a clue. He respects that she came to him of her own volition maybe and confessed things she had no need to tell him?

Who is transparent, though? All the characters seem deliberately opaque to me.

in TMFT jack thought that ben was going to keep his promise to let him go! he kept his promise to help kate and sawyer to get off the alcatraz and HE also kept his promise and stopped juliet's trial! so back then jack had reasons to expect ben to keep his promise!



Ben never made that promise, he promised Jack to get him off the island. Jack cut his kidney thing to manipulate them and get Sawyer and Kate off alcatraz. Juliet was the one that promised him to help his friends after Ben offered her a ticket off the island. Also Ben promised Jack not to kill Juliet and then he order Juliet to be branded.


...

as for the "juliet calmed jack down as she always does and he didnt yell at juliet even after she told him that she was planning to betray them" comments...
first, it was midnight and everyone was sleeping... juliet was talking in whispers and jack lower his voice for the same reason... to not wake anyone up...
second, he was sleeping and as soon as he woke up he learned that juliet was working with ben!!! (this mobisode reminded me the scene where kate started to tell jack that the others gassed them and left, immediatly after he woke up...it took him a while to gather his thoughts) that was something jack didnt expect to hear right after he woke up from his sleep in the middle of the night, so it's understandable that he was shocked and couldnt believe what he's hearing![/

I think that if Jack had really been mad he wouldn't have cared on waking everyone up, it's Jack he likes to yell at everyone. Plus Juliet's soothing influence on Jack IMO, is not just based on this scene but in other scenes as well.

Ben never made that promise, he promised Jack to get him off the island. Jack cut his kidney thing to manipulate them and get Sawyer and Kate off alcatraz. Juliet was the one that promised him to help his friends after Ben offered her a ticket off the island. Also Ben promised Jack not to kill Juliet and then he order Juliet to be branded.


Well, indirectly he did. He sent Juliet to help Sawyer and Kate escape on the conditon that Jack complete the surgery. So it was all Ben's doing. He told Juliet to get Jack to continue the surgery so that when he does she helps his friends escape. So from Jack's point of view Ben in a way told him that if he continues to do the surgery he (Ben) will get Juliet to help them. So, indirectly Ben controlled that move of their game, again.

My initial point was that I believe Jack never truly trusted Ben's word. Whether or not Ben came through on some of his bargains (and not others) is beside the point. If you look at the episodes prior to TMFT and this mobisode, Jack's manner is consistent, one of contempt and distrust of Ben's motivations and assurances. IMO he accepted Ben's promise in TMFT because his opportunity to leave on the submarine depended upon it, he didn't want to jeopardise that by making demands for the release of Kate and Sayid or renegotiating the deal to take one or both of them with him.

I do understand that Jack didn't have a lot of options, and had to do what he could to get Ben to honor the initial bargain of getting him off the island (with Juliet), but it makes his claim in TMFT that he trusted them because Kate told him to even more suspect. He was aware that trusting Ben's word was taking a big risk, and that's why it's sad that he took Ben's promise to let them go at face value and didn't ensure Kate and Sayid's safety more securely before he left to go on the submarine. I think he rationalised that he had to make an exception (in terms of believing Ben) or the whole escape plan would have fallen apart.

We see here in the mobisode a return of his initial and more prevalent attitude that Ben's word is worth absolutely nothing. And with good reason.

I think Jack has always trusted Juliet somewhat.

I don't think he's "always" trusted her, but he certainly developed a common bond with her pretty quickly during his captivity. And he has more reason to trust her than anyone else he's been playing this game with...as he told her, he could see it in her eyes, she wants off that island as badly as he does. Both of them are motivated by that one goal.

Eventually, Jack came to realize that they're all nothing more than pawns in Ben's chess game, and in this mobisode he sees that Juliet has finally come to accept that fact as well..."it's time to wake up". They both know that they will be stronger together, no secrets between them, in order to take on Ben. And they obviously do some solid bonding in this tiny little bit of film.

Ben never made that promise, he promised Jack to get him off the island. Jack cut his kidney thing to manipulate them and get Sawyer and Kate off alcatraz. Juliet was the one that promised him to help his friends after Ben offered her a ticket off the island. Also Ben promised Jack not to kill Juliet and then he order Juliet to be branded.


if ben didnt order juliet to help jack's friends so he could finish the surgery juliet wouldnt help them!



I think that if Jack had really been mad he wouldn't have cared on waking everyone up, it's Jack he likes to yell at everyone. Plus Juliet's soothing influence on Jack IMO, is not just based on this scene but in other scenes as well.


not a week or at most 10 days ago!

i remember scenes where jack yelled at her, treatened to kill her, threw the papers in her face...
but my point was we cant be sure of jack's trust to juliet or juliet's soothing influence on jack coz 10 days ago jack wasnt trusting juliet, then he started (or wanted) to trust her... things change very fast in the island :rolleyes: who knows what the following week will bring :)



If Jack doesn't fully trust Juliet, I wonder how to explain the fact that he confided only in her


he confided in danielle too... IMO the reason why jack didnt tell his plan to the losties was because kate told him that noone trusted jack anymore! (he learned that noone told him about naomi, charlie was acting weird around him...etc) he wanted to come up with a good plan before he faced the losties!

not a week or at most 10 days ago!

i remember scenes where jack yelled at her, treatened to kill her, threw the papers in her face...
but my point was we cant be sure of jack's trust to juliet or juliet's soothing influence on jack coz 10 days ago jack wasnt trusting juliet, then he started (or wanted) to trust her... things change very fast in the island :rolleyes: who knows what the following week will bring :)

I actually think Jack threw the papers at Ben. Jack yells at everyone, and he's waved a gun in a few faces, so I discount all that behavior. In any case, there was a nice rapport developing between Jack and Juliet by either the third or fourth episode of season 3; even in the first episode, she was able to joke a little with him and lighten the atmosphere. He realizes early on that she is not willingly in league with Ben; she saves Kate and Sawyer's lives and their escape attempt; she reveals that she's a prisoner too. She's the first person Jack asks about when he comes out of the gas, and he never hesitates about bringing her with him back to the beach, or keeping her safe from interrogation. It seems to me that the show has given us a lot of evidence that Jack trusts Juliet fairly early on. In any case, ten days probably have elapsed from the day we saw in SIASL (where Juliet gets branded) and Juliet's revelation in DOC, so I have no difficulty in believing that Jack's placed a great deal of trust in Juliet for at least a week or 10 days.

he confided in danielle too... IMO the reason why jack didnt tell his plan to the losties was because kate told him that noone trusted jack anymore! (he learned that noone told him about naomi, charlie was acting weird around him...etc) he wanted to come up with a good plan before he faced the losties!

By the time Kate tells Jack that the other survivors don't trust him any longer, Jack had already made the decision to keep Juliet's news to himself. Jack decides to conceal the information and place his primary confidence in Juliet--not in Kate, not in Sayid, not in any of the other survivors--before he knows about Naomi or before he knows that much of the camp now doubts his loyalty. I think Jack makes this decision because, as we see in this mobisode, Jack does repose a great deal of trust in Juliet. He can take bad news from her without pitching a fit, he understands her motivations, and above all he believes what she tells him.

Ben and Juliet's relationship and trust is based on years of friendship and betrayal and lies and shifting alliances and mutual goals and differing goals etc. I'm just hoping for another flashback to get a better grasp on exactly why he didn't see her betrayal coming.

To be honest, Ben has shown a weakness towards Juliet throughout season 3. Instead of killing her, he only had her get branded. Then he let her go to the beach as a spy although he knew that she was planning to kill him. I think Ben might have developed feelings for her and you know what very often happens to people when they fall in love.They tend to see that person with rose-colored glasses. I guess that's what happened to Ben because it's totally unexplainable how he didn't see her betrayal coming otherwise.


not a week or at most 10 days ago!

i remember scenes where jack yelled at her, treatened to kill her, threw the papers in her face...
but my point was we cant be sure of jack's trust to juliet or juliet's soothing influence on jack coz 10 days ago jack wasnt trusting juliet, then he started (or wanted) to trust her... things change very fast in the island :rolleyes: who knows what the following week will bring :)

Jack threatened to kill her in the season premiere and he only yelled at her during the miniarc. They were enemies at that point. He was the prisoner and she was the captor. That's totally normal behaviour under those circumstances. Still, even during those early episodes Jack & Juliet had some nice rapports from time to time. I guess when she revealed to him that she's a prisoner too, he realized that he found an ally in her and started to really put his trust in her.

he confided in danielle too... IMO the reason why jack didnt tell his plan to the losties was because kate told him that noone trusted jack anymore! (he learned that noone told him about naomi, charlie was acting weird around him...etc) he wanted to come up with a good plan before he faced the losties!

Jack only learnt that the Losties didn't trust him anymore at the end of the Brig. He already knew about Ben's plan for a few days and started to work out a plan with Juliet. He trusts her more than he trusts Sayid, Hurley, Charlie or any other of the Losties. They have the same goal (getting off the island) and they share the same social and educational background. It's that simple.


Who is transparent, though? All the characters seem deliberately opaque to me.

Isn't it obvious? Juliet is totally transparent and she's the most evil person on the island. Yawn. The most beautiful thing about this show is that none of the characters are totally good or totally bad but unfortunately, so many people seem to be far too close-minded to realize and appreciate it. There's not one character on this show that has no good sides. Even Ben has a few positive character traits.

wow this is so tiring!

did he look surprised after kate told him that noone trusted him? no... coz he already knew it...
the point of that scene was to show us that noone trusted jack (except kate) and that he knew it and to make us wonder what he's up to!

also the season premiere was a long time ago for us but not in island time... they stayed in the alcatraz for a week and kate and co found the othersville in a few days (4-5?)
and not a long time passed after they got back to the beach...

so jack knew juliet for 2 weeks maybe a little more... he wasnt trusting juliet in the first week, he started to trust her in the second week!

if you think that jack has complete trust in juliet and it will not change in the future its ok! but i say things (relationships) change fast in the island...
so things can change for jack-juliet dinamic too!

wow this is so tiring!

did he look surprised after kate told him that noone trusted him? no... coz he already knew it...
the point of that scene was to show us that noone trusted jack (except kate) and that he knew it and to make us wonder what he's up to!

also the season premiere was a long time ago for us but not in island time... they stayed in the alcatraz for a week and kate and co found the othersville in a few days (4-5?)
and not a long time passed after they got back to the beach...

so jack knew juliet for 2 weeks maybe a little more... he wasnt trusting juliet in the first week, he started to trust her in the second week!

if you think that jack has complete trust in juliet and it will not change in the future its ok! but i say things (relationships) change fast in the island...
so things can change for jack-juliet dinamic too!

Jack was somewhat suprised nobody told him about Naomi, he asked Kate "Why didn't anyone tell me ?" or something like that. But it's not the first time the Losties go against the so called leader, so I don't think he was completely shocked. As much as he apreciated Kate telling him about Naomi (if he did, because all I saw was yelling) he knew he couldn't tell Kate about his plan becuase she would tell the Other Losties.

Relationships do change pretty fast on the island. Jack and Juliet were enemies, he threaten to kill her, and he told both Juliet and Ben, "do you think I trust you people?"
but when Juliet was supposedly left behind, he didn't hesistate a second to bring her with him, he told Sayid that, at the camp meeting he told everyone that the fact that he trusted Juliet should be enought, but the Losties didn't listen to him...and they were right :p. Jack andJuliet started off enemies, but now they have a very strong bond. Juliet has had plenty of opportunities to betray Jack, and she hasn't, same for Jack he doesn't need to protect her, he owes her nothing, but still he saved her life and then protected her, from his people.

so maybe jack wasnt that wrong about juliet... he gave her the benefit of the doubt, he trusted that she wouldnt betray them, he believed that juliet and the losties have the same goal... and juliet didnt betray them, after 3 years she went against Ben's decisions and told the beach camp his plan, she decided to side with the losties...
maybe if jack wouldnt have trusted juliet and left her behind in the othersville, they would never have the chance to know what the other's were planning...

IMO Sun's pregnancy and the fact the she'll be dying in the next month is not the only reason for Juliet to change her mind because Sun isn't the first pregnant patient on the island that's facing death!

IMO Sun's pregnancy and the fact the she'll be dying in the next month is not the only reason for Juliet to change her mind because Sun isn't the first pregnant patient on the island that's facing death!




I agree I don't think that's the only reason, I think Juliet's soft-spot for Jack made a difference too, and the fact that he has saved her life and protected her, AND her hate for Ben.

Jack andJuliet started off enemies, but now they have a very strong bond. Juliet has had plenty of opportunities to betray Jack, and she hasn't, same for Jack he doesn't need to protect her, he owes her nothing, but still he saved her life and then protected her, from his people.

I'm not sure that they started off as enemies...they started off on opposite sides of the glass, definitely, but they seemed to connect pretty quickly...within the first day or two, at least. Jack tried to use her to escape from the hatch (by putting the plate to her neck), but in that very scene, he realized that Ben viewed her as expendable. That seemed to strengthen their bond, and though he was reluctant to admit it for awhile, Jack knew that they had some common ground.

And I think that's why Jack didn't fly off the handle with her when she confessed the truth about working for Ben. He's seen what has happened to her at Ben's hands, he knows that all she wants is to get home, and he knows that she's a good person. Bottom line: he trusts her like he trusts no one else on the Island.

Not to say that Jack doesn't trust Juliet, because maybe he does, but I wouldn't go so far as to say he trusts her like he trusts no one on the island, because I think Jack trusts Kate more than anyone else on the island. He has every reason to. She's given him every reason to, whereas Juliet....not so much!

Not to say that Jack doesn't trust Juliet, because maybe he does, but I wouldn't go so far as to say he trusts her like he trusts no one on the island, because I think Jack trusts Kate more than anyone else on the island. He has every reason to. She's given him every reason to, whereas Juliet....not so much!

And even with the "not so much!", Jack continued to keep Juliet close at his side. He trusted his own instincts about her, and ultimately, he was right. I think Jack really respected her honesty in that mobisode scene, and she continued to assume the role of his "second in command" even after he knew the truth. Of course he trusts Kate as well, but Juliet became the one he sought time with; she became the one he kept secrets for and with; she became the one who helped him plan against Ben. I think this mobisode piece really fleshes out their relationship well, in terms of the trust they've built, and how they relate to and communicate with each other.

Not to say that Jack doesn't trust Juliet, because maybe he does, but I wouldn't go so far as to say he trusts her like he trusts no one on the island, because I think Jack trusts Kate more than anyone else on the island. He has every reason to. She's given him every reason to, whereas Juliet....not so much!

When has Jack ever trusted Kate when it came to important decisions for the camp? When he didn't want to tell Kate about the impending attack of the Others even though Kate came to him and sold out Sayid and the rest of the camp? When he figured out a plan with Juliet without informing anyone (including Kate) about it? When he didn't want to let her go down to the hatch because he didn't trust her enough to tell her about Ben? When he didn't want to tell her about his army?

I think Jack trusts Kate when it comes to having his back on the island but he doesn't seem to trust her when it comes to important decisions for the camp. That's just my opinion of course.

Looking back at season 3, it's really unbelievable how fast Jack & Juliet have bonded. They've only known each other for approximately a month but they've already developed such a strong trust in each other. It's even more unbelievable on Jack's part because he always seemed to have trust issues IMO but who can blame him if we take a look at his past? It's just unbelievable to me that he already trusts her enough when it comes to working out plans for the safety of the camp.

Our Lady of Situational Loyalty does bear a strong resemblance to Jack's ex-wife, Sarah. Surely that's the source of much of his loyalty to her.

It wasn't a matter of Jack trusting Kate or Juliet more, or less.

Juliet had something to offer - inside information about a potential threat to the beachies, and also a knowledge of how the Others think and operate.
Kate didn't have any comparable info or resources. If she had, then Jack would trust her equally as much, or as little.

edit: for what it's worth, Jack takes in information, and acts on it - sometimes rashly - but he never gives out any information.

Our Lady of Situational Loyalty does bear a strong resemblance to Jack's ex-wife, Sarah. Surely that's the source of much of his loyalty to her.

Perhaps subconsciously, especially in the beginning. But Juliet's resemblance to Sarah was pointed out to Jack by Ben himself, as one of Ben's manipulations. I'd think Jack would be more wary, and less trusting, once that had been made explicit. I wonder how much of Jack's trust in Juliet stems from the fact that she's the first person Jack seems to recognize as a peer.

lostmio, Juliet did have information to offer. But nothing we saw in this mobisode indicates that Juliet required Jack to keep her information confidential. In fact, Juliet's reaction at the end of The Brig suggests that she wouldn't have minded sharing her information with others. Jack chose not to share the information with Kate or with anyone else on the beach.

Jack chose not to share the information with Kate or with anyone else on the beach.
Yes, that was one of my points. It would have been exceeding un-Jack-like for him to give out that information, to anyone, unless he felt it necessary. That he didn't had nothing to do with not trusting Kate - or with trusting Juliet more than the beachies.

Perhaps subconsciously, especially in the beginning. But Juliet's resemblance to Sarah was pointed out to Jack by Ben himself, as one of Ben's manipulations. I'd think Jack would be more wary, and less trusting, once that had been made explicit. I wonder how much of Jack's trust in Juliet stems from the fact that she's the first person Jack seems to recognize as a peer.

I don't think Ben just let this information slip out without thinking. Given his manipulative ways, it seems reasonable that Ben told this to Jack as a way to create more sympathy in Jack for Juliet, by making it seem that she was being used as well.

Jack threatened to kill her in the season premiere and he only yelled at her during the miniarc. They were enemies at that point. He was the prisoner and she was the captor. That's totally normal behaviour under those circumstances. Still, even during those early episodes Jack & Juliet had some nice rapports from time to time. I guess when she revealed to him that she's a prisoner too, he realized that he found an ally in her and started to really put his trust in her.

Actually, Jack didn't trust Juliet even after he found out she was a prisoner. Jack still wanted nothing to do with her. Remember when she came to him with the photo's of Ben's infected stitches, and she asked for Jack's help? Jack's response was "I'm not going to help him, and I'm not going to help you." That scene took place at night, and by the next morning, Jack still hadn't budged on his stand. It was only after Jack found out that Juliet killed Pickett to save Kate and Sawyer that Jack shifted course. Alex inadvertently happened to touch upon Jack's kryptonite: guilt.

The moment when Jack really changed in his opinion of Juliet was exactly when he said it changed: when he saw her face when the submarine blew up. THAT was the moment when he saw a genuine desire for her to get off the island and that she wasn't playing games.

He trusts her more than he trusts Sayid, Hurley, Charlie or any other of the Losties. No way. Jack spent how many days with Juliet? Ten? How many MONTHS did he spend with Sayid, Hurley, Charlie, etc? How many life and death struggles did they all share? How many friends did they bury? No way does Jack trust Juliet more than Sayid and the others.

They have the same goal (getting off the island) and they share the same social and educational background. It's that simple. Mostly true. Definitely have the same goals and educational background. We have no idea about Juliet's social life off the island, and she does seem to have a VERY strong bond with a sibling, unlike Jack. She may even be close to her parents, who knows. I'm trying to understand how Juliet became such a meek mouse off island.

I'm not sure that they started off as enemies

They definitely started off as enemies. When someone drugs you, ties you up, cages you in a glass box and tortures you emotionally, it's not a friendship. I DO believe that Jack saw a softer side of Juliet underneath all that ice, but how can you possibly trust someone who works for Ben? Again, I have to look at it from Jack's point of view and not from the viewer because we KNOW that Juliet doesn't like Ben, but Jack doesn't know it.

...they started off on opposite sides of the glass, definitely, but they seemed to connect pretty quickly...within the first day or two, at least. I think the chemistry between the actors is fantastic, but I don't think Jack EVER trusted Juliet until he was in Othersville. Why do I say that? Because Jack said it. "Do you think I believe you people?" Jack was playing Juliet the entire time until after Sawyer and Kate escaped. Juliet brought Kate to Jack when Kate told him that they were going to kill Sawyer. Jack saw how distraught Kate was, and he SAW that Juliet was a part of it all, and he knew he was being manipulated. Juliet told the Others to kill Kate and Sawyer if they had to, and she called Jack's bluff in front of Tom with regard to him being able to kill Ben. Jack, in turn, outed Juliet to Ben and Tom.

Jack tried to use her to escape from the hatch (by putting the plate to her neck), but in that very scene, he realized that Ben viewed her as expendable. That seemed to strengthen their bond, and though he was reluctant to admit it for awhile, Jack knew that they had some common ground. I think the bond started during the aloe scene, and not prior. It probably had something to do with Jack seeing her hurt and vulnerable. He's a sucker for a sob story.

And I think that's why Jack didn't fly off the handle with her when she confessed the truth about working for Ben. He's seen what has happened to her at Ben's hands, he knows that all she wants is to get home, and he knows that she's a good person. Well, he didn't fly off the handle because it was the middle of the night, but mostly because she confessed. Truth goes a long way with Jack. If Jack had found out about Juliet's spy mission on his own, the reaction to Juliet would have been very different. As for my opinion of Juliet's goodness, the jury is still out on that fact. I WANT her to be good, and I hope the writers let her be good, but I have a feeling there's something "bad" about Juliet.

Bottom line: he trusts her like he trusts no one else on the Island.

Completely 100% disagree. He barely knows her. No way.

And even with the "not so much!", Jack continued to keep Juliet close at his side. He trusted his own instincts about her, and ultimately, he was right. I think Jack really respected her honesty in that mobisode scene,

I agree. It was the honesty that I think really helped Jack.

and she continued to assume the role of his "second in command" even after he knew the truth. I don't see her as a second in command at all. I'm not really sure if Jack trusts anyone completely on the island. He had no problem with Juliet going to face a very uncertain ending at the beach with Sawyer. I'm not saying that he has no feelings for her, but from what I have seen, it's not nearly on the level that I'm reading. Juliet likes Jack alot. THAT I do see. Jack is attracted to Juliet. I see that too, but Jack was definitely surprised by the kiss. He wasn't expecting it. I'm not saying that he didn't like it. I'm saying that I don't think HE felt their relationship was anywhere near what it was when Juliet kissed him. I admire the fact that Juliet just put her feelings out there. None of this schoolgirl crap. "I like him. I'm going to kiss him. Period." You go, girl. However, I'm still not sure there aren't ulterior motives on Juilet's part with regard to the Losties. I just don't know.

Of course he trusts Kate as well, but Juliet became the one he sought time with; But why would he continue to seek time with Kate if he feels she loves Sawyer. It makes sense that he might seek out Juliet. Imo, Jack feels like he has to break whatever emotional ties he had with Kate because now she's involved with Sawyer. He needs to protect his heart. It makes sense that he would want to distance himself from Kate.

she became the one he kept secrets for and with; They had one secret, and we don't even know how long the secret existed from the time she told Jack to the time he told the Losties. It could have been one day, two at most. The timeline for Lost is murky. I thought Jack, Kate and Sawyer were prisoners for a lot longer than they actually were. I thought it was weeks, but it was only one week.

she became the one who helped him plan against Ben. They ALL planned against Ben. In fact, it was mostly Jack and Sayid, frankly.

I think this mobisode piece really fleshes out their relationship well, in terms of the trust they've built, and how they relate to and communicate with each other.I do think that the mobisode showed another side to the relationship, definitely.

Perhaps subconsciously, especially in the beginning. But Juliet's resemblance to Sarah was pointed out to Jack by Ben himself, as one of Ben's manipulations. I'd think Jack would be more wary, and less trusting, once that had been made explicit. I wonder how much of Jack's trust in Juliet stems from the fact that she's the first person Jack seems to recognize as a peer.

That's an interesting point. I think the fact that Juliet bears a resemblance to Sarah was a brilliant move on Ben's part. Even if it's subconscious, Jack may be connecting to Juliet because she DOES remind him of Sarah. (Why Jack still cares about that woman is beyond me, but wrong topic).

lostmio, Juliet did have information to offer. But nothing we saw in this mobisode indicates that Juliet required Jack to keep her information confidential. In fact, Juliet's reaction at the end of The Brig suggests that she wouldn't have minded sharing her information with others. Jack chose not to share the information with Kate or with anyone else on the beach.And they also kept their secrets. None of that stuff really makes sense to me. Why didn't Jack share the information? Why didn't the Losties tell Jack about Naomi? Why would they trust a complete stranger that fell out of the sky who's story had more holes than swiss cheese in it (and Sayid even noticed them)? Why didn't they just all sit down and rehash what they knew or why they might be wary of Jack? These people NEVER seem to communicate - and it's not one character who's guilty of it. They are all guilty of it. It bugs me.

Eh.

No way. Jack spent how many days with Juliet? Ten? How many MONTHS did he spend with Sayid, Hurley, Charlie, etc? How many life and death struggles did they all share? How many friends did they bury? No way does Jack trust Juliet more than Sayid and the others.

You are convinced of this, but this isn't as obvious to me. How much trust Jack has in the other survivors isn't a factor of how long he has known them or what they've seen together - it's how he demonstrates whether or not he has trust. Jack may have trusted Juliet with "only one" secret, but it was the secret of life and death for all of them. So, not only did Jack share this secret only with her, but he trusted her to be telling him the truth on this life and death issue. It was a mutual trust, very strong, given the situation. By the same token, Jack decided that the rest of these adults - including Sayid, Kate, Desmond, etc. - had no right to this information, which directly impacted their own survival. He decided to "protect" 'them by withholding information given him by a stranger - information she never asked him to keep confidential. It's bewildering. Not sure if it represents a lack of trust in his older friends, or a lack of respect, but it definitely seems to indicate a stronger degree of trust and/or respect for Juliet. By rights, he shouldn't trust her more. Still, it seems he does.

You are convinced of this, but this isn't as obvious to me.

And that's fine.

How much trust Jack has in the other survivors isn't a factor of how long he has known them or what they've seen together

I disagree. Generally, trust is earned over time and not given in a moment's notice. Trust is earned and reinforced. It's not random.

- it's how he demonstrates whether or not he has trust.

Very true.

Jack may have trusted Juliet with "only one" secret, but it was the secret of life and death for all of them.

First of all, Jack didn't trust Juliet with the secret. Juliet trusted Jack. Second of all, Jack did reveal the secret to the others. When Sawyer was about to play the recorder, Jack and Juliet did not look "caught" or afraid. They were on their way into the tent to talk to the Losties.

Using your own logic, was it right for Desmond, Sayid, Charlie and Hurley to keep the arrival of a person who had access to getting off the island a secret? Someone who had access to outside help? Does that mean that they trusted Naomi above everyone else on the island, including Rose or Claire, etc.?

All this means is that some Losties had secrets, and for whatever reason, they chose not to reveal their secrets right away to different parties. I think it's dumb and idiotic, but that's Lost.

So, not only did Jack share this secret only with her,

Again, you have it backwards.

but he trusted her to be telling him the truth on this life and death issue.

I'm not saying he didn't trust her on a life and death issue, but imo, it was more Jack erring on the side of caution. Even if he didn't believe a single word she was saying, it was far more dangerous for him to ignore her message then him not believing her. I mean, you HAVE to react if someone tells you that they are coming for the pregnant women, especially when you've spent the most time with Ben, as Jack has, and knows his manipulations.

It was a mutual trust, very strong, given the situation. By the same token, Jack decided that the rest of these adults - including Sayid, Kate, Desmond, etc. - had no right to this information, which directly impacted their own survival.

But they had a right to keep an equally important secret, also about life and death - and possible rescue? I'm seeing a double-standard here.

He decided to "protect" 'them by withholding information given him by a stranger - information she never asked him to keep confidential. It's bewildering.

Now she's a stranger? My head is starting to spin. Look, I agree with you on this point: Jack should have shared the information immediately. But again, for all we know, Jack slept on it one night and told them about it by the end of the next day. Is that reprehensible? No, but I agree that it should have been told the next morning. The same way I feel that Sayid and the others should not have hidden away Naomi. What was all that about? THAT'S a true stranger. A stranger that they all instantly trusted, especially after all the duplicity and craziness they've seen on the island? Now THAT'S bewildering.

Not sure if it represents a lack of trust in his older friends, or a lack of respect,

It's neither. It's temporary stupidity - of which Sayid, Charlie, Hurley, Kate, etc, all took a sip.

but it definitely seems to indicate a stronger degree of trust and/or respect for Juliet. By rights, he shouldn't trust her more. Still, it seems he does.

Based on Jack waiting one day? I don't see that at all, but if you see that Jack trusts Juliet above and beyond every other soul on the island, then that's fine. That's what you see. I, on the other hand, don't even remotely see that. Like I said, it was Juliet's secret that she told to Jack, and it seems that Jack shared that secret within a day. Maybe Jack left camp that morning to find Rousseau and returned by evening just as the you-know-what was hitting the fan. Who knows. Maybe Jack wanted to have a tangible action plan to present to the group before revealing the secret. Does that make him right for concealing it? No way, but it may be his reasoning. The same way Sayid, and the others had their reason for concealing Naomi and keeping it a secret, although that makes less sense to me because she's a way off the island. Why not celebrate it instead of hiding her? It's bizarre, but it's Lost.

I think there are several things going on with the trust issue, and not only when it comes to Jack, but to everyone else on the island,

First, and foremost, there's the fact that the writers don't want to let the cat out of the bag too soon. So, some decisions made by the Losties are always going to seem a stretch for us viewers. Why didn't the Losties go exploring the island as soon as they landed? It would have been only natural that someone like Sayid, for instance, at least try to walk around it; because, the Others, and the Hydra and the 4-toed stustue would have been discovered too soon. That's why.

So, a lot of these questions about why Jack and/or Ben trust Juliet have to do with plot development, or rather, plot stalling. However, I do think one could have a well reasoned argument as to why anyone does anything on the island, as the writers have been ambiguous enough to allow for many explanations. Not that any of our arguments is more right than anyone else's, but, I guess that's why so many people like this show: anyone can be right.

Jack has never been very rational or logical when it comes to Kate because he's in love in her, so, any reaction he has to what she does or doesn't do, anything he tells her to do or not to do is all driven by his emotions. He wants to protect her more than anyone else, and he gets more frustrated by her than by anyone else. He'll never be logical when it comes to her; usually so sure of himself, he never is with her, partly because he loves her and partly because she's been so ambiguous with her own feelings for him and Sawyer. He truly doesn't know where he stands with her romantically, so, he never knows what to do around her.

There's also the fact that she's keeping the biggest secret of her life from him, and he knows it. It's true he had his chance to know and blew it, but it's also true that Kate could have told him at any point. We could speculate she doesn't tell him for any number of reasons, but the point is, if you look at it from Jack's POV, she doesn't completely trust him, and that makes their interactions even more complicated. Not to mention the fact that he's already seen her with Sawyer, which has got to sting like a Vincent. One of my friends says he gets paralyzed when she's around, but I'm not sure it goes that far, I think it's more likely my friend is projecting :biggrin: . Sawyer is not that much better at it either, he snaps at her, keeps secrets from her, is sweet one minute, rude the next... I chug it all to the fact that he's also in love with her.

When it comes to Juliet, my best guess is that Jack started to change his opinion of her when she told him that Ben had promised her to let her go after three years, right after she'd killed Pickett to allow Kate and Sawyer to leave. It's probably one of the most vulnerable Juliet moments so far; it could have been an act, but she truly looked at the end of her rope then. I think at that time he started to see her as a victim too. Not that Juliet is blameless in her transformation from mouse to ruthless ice queen, but, none of that might have happened, had she never met Ben and lived under his manipulative, controlling thumb for 3+ years. It seems Jack did see something in her eyes that led him to believe that he could trust her and it seems he was right; after all, she didn't betray him. She actually came to him and told him about Ben's plan so that they could do something about it.

Why did he keep Kate in the dark about the dynamite? I believe mostly because the writers wanted to show us the big surprise of all the Losties going to that field to see the tree bow up, it was done for dramatic effect. But one could say that Jack was keeping his cards to himself and he didn't want to bring anyone else into it until he had it all worked out. Juliet already knew what was coming, she was the one who told him, so, it makes sense that with this indication that his trust had been well placed, he asked for her help.

But he tried to keep everyone else out of it too until their participation was absolutely necessary. IMO, that makes a lot sense, as, in the past, the Losties, as a group, have proved to be indecisive, argumentative, prone to bickering, and even fighting. There are a lot of short fuses and alpha males around, so, he thought it best to come to them with a plan. Not to mention that after his experiences with the Others, he knows Ben has ways of watching them, and he figured out how they always seemed to be one step ahead of the game. More reaso