Interesting new mobisode. Transcript:
Mobisode #10 - “Jack Meet Ethan”

[Jack is going through suitcases. Ethan walks up.]

Ethan - You’re the Doctor, right?

Jack - Yeah. That’s me.

Ethan - Well, I heard you were rounding up the medicine, so I figured you might want this.

[He opens a suitcase.]

Jack - Whew.

[Laugh]

Ethan - Jackpot, right?

Jack - Guy must have been a hypochondriac or something. Where did you find this?

Ethan - Jungle.

Ethan - I’m Ethan, by the way.

[They shake hands.]

Jack - Jack.

Ethan - Thank you, Jack.

Jack - For what?

Ethan - Getting those together, having a little perspective, you know. [Says something unintelligible.] Most of them still think we’re going to get rescued any time now.

Jack - And you think I don‘t?

Ethan - No, I think you’re smart. And I think you’re looking at that girl, [looks at Claire] knowing that you might actually have to deliver that baby here. I know that’s what I’m thinking.

Jack - Well, it’s nice to know I’m not alone.

Ethan - [Laughs.] You’re definitely not alone.

Jack - If she does go into labor, at least I know I’ve got an assistant. [Ethan looks at him and looks away.] I’m sorry, I didn’t mean to…”

Ethan - It’s all right. Don’t worry about it. Anyway I’m glad the meds.

Jack - Thank you.

[Ethan gets up to leave.]

Ethan - Jack, um, my wife died in childbirth. And our uh, our baby didn’t make it either. [Jack looks at him, but doesn’t say anything.] Well, let’s hope we’re both wrong and the rescue boats are on the way right now.

Jack - Let’s hope.

[Ethan walks away.]
Best part for me was hearing Ethan say he lost his wife and child during childbirth. Could this actually be true?

Don't know why this mobisode has the same number (111) as the previous one...
Edit: Here is the link to the credits page at ABC.com (http://abc.go.com/primetime/lost/missingpieces/index?pn=missingpiecescredits#t=0&d=74760).

I think Ethan was telling the truth. There is no reason for him to lie about that. But wow in retrospect Charlie is a murderer, it seems that Ethan was genuinely worried about Claire

Well, Ethan was in the wrong too, that's for sure. Kidnapping, drugging and manipulating Claire, killing Sceve? All very bad things. Just because Ethan had a trauma in his past doesn't justify his behavior.

Just rewatching SIASL (skipping the FBs!). I had forgotten Ethan was the Others' surgeon. No wonder he gave Jack all those supplies.

Oooh, this one was actually interesting, so yeah... Jack, Juliet and Ben can be featured more, I'm not complaining.


hearing Ethan say he lost his wife and child during childbirth. Could this actually be true?

Yep. And I think we saw it happening

in One Of Us. Deana, was it? No, it wasn't. It's Sabine, remembered it ten minutes later.

I think Ethan was lying about something, about the suitcase. There was no hypocondriac and I don't think he found it in the jungle, I think he brought it from Otherville, part of the effort to make sure Ben had a healthy lab rat in Claire.

I felt really bad for Ethan there. I know he did some crappy stuff but it's nice to see him humanized.

Yep. And I think we saw it happening

in One Of Us. Deana, was it? I can't remember her name.

I think Ethan was lying about something, about the suitcase. There was no hypocondriac and I don't think he found it in the jungle, I think he brought it from Otherville, part of the effort to make sure Ben had a healthy lab rat in Claire.
Hmm, interesting idea. But I checked losthatch.com for a transcript of that episode:

[Juliet looks down the beach where Ethan is buried. Then she quits trying to make small talk. Flashback to Juliet in an operating room on the island. A few others are there as well. Everyone is wearing a blue smock with the DHARMA logo of The Flame station printed on them. An EKG with a long beep shows a flat line. With bloody latex gloves, Ethan pulls down his mask]
Ethan: She's gone, Juliet. She's dead.
[Goodwin is also in the room. Behind him can be seen a large round clock on the wall. The time reads 12:18]
Goodwin [Speaking to Juliet]: Hey, it's okay. You tried. Why don't you go ahead and take off. I'll talk to Ben.
So, Ethan was there, and he was very casual about the woman's death.

As for the suitcase full of drugs, remember that guy from S1 who had the rash? He was a hypocondriac. But I agree, I think it is more likely that Ethan brought that stuff. Remember in OOU when Juliet talked about the supply drops?

This was another good and very interesting one. We of course are assuming that Ethan hung Charlie and that Ethan killed Sceve. We never saw either take place.

Hmm, interesting idea. But I checked losthatch.com for a transcript of that episode:

So, Ethan was there, and he was very casual about the woman's death.


Yeah, I was trying to remember if he was in the room. I'm going to have to rewatch that episode now, cause I don't remember if he was actually operating and had nothing but a stony face on... The Others only had one surgeon so it's not like they could afford to bother with normal surgery procedures about operating on one's loved ones.

It was just an idea, I was thinking that ~> real spoiler about an upcoming episode so be warned...

Since Juliet has an upcoming island flashback and we know Ethan's in it, it would make sense if they use what we already saw

end real spoiler

...and it would be very creepy and Other-esque to realize Ethan and Mrs.Ethan were trying to produce a baby specifically for Ben and for the good of the cause. Remember when Ben told Juliet she agreed to get pregnant? Just a theory, I'm often way off with my hunches. :D

As for the suitcase full of drugs, remember that guy from S1 who had the rash? He was a hypocondriac. But I agree, I think it is more likely that Ethan brought that stuff. Remember in OOU when Juliet talked about the supply drops?


Yeah, I just mentioned Sullivan in our Jack thread, but it would still be a little odd to have him go with that suitcase through security. It didn't even need to be the supply drop, he could have stolen the meds straight from Otherville without Ben's knowledge.

Flyer, very true. But unless we get evidence otherwise, I am going to stick with what we know.

Claudia, your post is funny, so much spoilerfont! Regarding the actual show spoiler:
I really hope we get information about Ethan and Goodwin in that ep that goes beyond their roles as soldiers for Ben. More about Ethan's family would be excellent, as well as Juliet's reactions to their deaths.

Flyer, very true. But unless we get evidence otherwise, I am going to stick with what we know.

What do we know? Nothing. We have been led to assume Ethan killed both, but we've also been shown time and time again that the Others aren't killers, but we've been told by Juliet that Ethan strayed and acted on his own. Did he really though?

That scene from "One of Us" was the first thing that popped into my head too Claudia, but it could be:


That Ethan's loss was the manipulative tool used to recruit Ethan to their creepy little island cult.

I think that what Ethan said did happen to him. Why did he tell Jack, though? So that Jack would eventually ask him more about it? To give Jack a reason to trust Ethan in relation to Claire and in relation to everything in general?

You know, I think that a lot of the Others are actually misguided and misinformed cult followerers. Doesn't everyone want something to believe in? To be a part of? Ben provided that for the Others and was charismatic enough to keep drawing people in, to keep people inline, to get them to do just about anything for a long time. I think that Ethan really did believe that what he was doing was the right thing. Well, I think that he thought that the cause that he was fighting for was worth fighting for and if he had to do something out of the ordinary that might be morally ambiguous in and upon itself, well, so be it...the cause was worth it...

I hate spoiler fonting but here I go

I really liked this mobisode, any time we get so Ethan is cool with me. I knew there had to be something behind his weird behavior. Like other people said it still doesn't justify hanging Charlie from a tree and killing Steve/Scott wheatever, but I think that he might have lost it. Perhaps he shares an obssessive behavior like Jack.
This mobisode really humanized Ethan, which I never thought could happen since the Others are supposed to be bad...
About the meds, I can live with both theories they were on the plane, or maybe Ethan brought them from Othersville. But it's obvious that they want to show a "nice" side from Ethan so I'm leaning with the second, we may never know
I don't think Sabine was his wife, he was sad, but not as upset as one would think.

Do you guys think the x-rays or whatever Juliet saw in NIP belong to Ethan's wife?

very cool mobisode, i love the way this show regularly gives us information that makes us have to revise and re-examine some of the assumptions that we have made about people.

i don't think that ethan had time to grab a suit case of drugs, when ben dispached ethan i felt that he just ran off to the crash site.

I hadn't thought of the off Island possibility, I guess I was too wrapped up in the "baby for Ben" scenario.

I think that what Ethan said did happen to him. Why did he tell Jack, though? So that Jack would eventually ask him more about it? To give Jack a reason to trust Ethan in relation to Claire and in relation to everything in general?

I think he was trying to establish a good relationship with Jack because he saw him as the emergent leader (Goodwin went to Ana on the Tailies side of the Island so this was a good tactic), but if my theory is correct and he really did bring meds to help the losties, he probably said it because he felt the need to say it, if that makes any sense.

You know, I think that a lot of the Others are actually misguided and misinformed cult followerers. Doesn't everyone want something to believe in? To be a part of? Ben provided that for the Others and was charismatic enough to keep drawing people in, to keep people inline, to get them to do just about anything for a long time. I think that Ethan really did believe that what he was doing was the right thing.

I think they all do, I'm sure most of them started off like Juliet. But there's ways to do that without all the murder, torture, kindapping, manipulations, etc., and maybe someone less psychotic would find that way. Ben don't roll like that though. No wonder the Island doesn't like him anymore.

i don't think that ethan had time to grab a suit case of drugs, when ben dispached ethan i felt that he just ran off to the crash site.

Wasn't he supposed to report a few days after the crash? We know Goodwin did it. I think it's possible that Ethan went back to Otherville or to the drop off point and grabbed the suitcase, I don't see Sullivan going through customs with a suitcase full of pills.

Great mobisode! I believe he ran into some meds on the beach and in the jungle. Put it in a suitcase and abracadabdra!! He earned a little trust from the Losties doctor. Perhaps by telling Jack about his wife dieing in child birth as well as their child, he was hoping for Jack to have some info about it, probe it or question it. If Jack had some medical gem of wisdom as to why that happened, maybe Ethan could bring that knowledge back to the others and put some use to that information.
I think Ethan, being at Richard Alperts side off the island and being one of Ben's go-to guys, I dont believe him to have had a child or attempted on the island. He knows the ramifications. Why subject his wife (if he was married) to such a risk. I think he was just telling one of many attempts of having children on the island.

Wasn't he supposed to report a few days after the crash? We know Goodwin did it. I think it's possible that Ethan went back to Otherville or to the drop off point and grabbed the suitcase, I don't see Sullivan going through customs with a suitcase full of pills.
If we believe Juliet, we know Ethan had access to supplies, either left for him by Juliet or someone else, or that he had time to retrieve.
Juliet: Look, I know how this sounds, but without those injections, Claire would have died. Without the serum she's going into a form of withdrawal and if I don't treat her quickly, her immune system could shut down entirely. Jack, I can fix this. I just need the serum. Ethan kept a stash of the medical supplies near the caves where you used to live. If I go right now, I can be back before it's to late.

I think that what Ethan said did happen to him. Why did he tell Jack, though? So that Jack would eventually ask him more about it? To give Jack a reason to trust Ethan in relation to Claire and in relation to everything in general?


I think Ethan is being 100% sincere in this conversation. I would even say that when he said 'hope the rescue comes' he was being sincere. He is worried about Claire and feels that she has been shafted since she did not chose to have her baby on the island. Choice seems to be a very important thing in the others camp. In 'One of us' Ben consoles Juliet by saying that Sabine chose to get pregnant like that is suppose to make everything ok even in Maternity Leave Claire is given the choice to give her baby to the others or go back with the baby. I think Ethan feels it is unfair that Claire did not have a choice and had she known she was going to end up on a pregnant women killing island she would probably have not gotten pregnant and it may stem from his wife who I'm theorizing also got pregnant without a choice (maybe the condom did not work or she was a survivor of a boat crash on the island and was already pregnant at the time). It would also explain why Ethan was being so nice to Claire in Maternity Leave.

What a great mobisode right up there with 'King of the Castle'.

I agree Jynes, for some reason I always knew Ethan didn't go all crazy on Claire for no reason. Still doesn't explain Scott/Steve or hanging Charlie from a tree. But new I can see he genuinly wanted to save Claire and the baby, I kind of feel bad that I was completely wrong when I judged him before :(.
This is one of my favorites mobisodes :D
I'll repeat a question that I had earlier:
What do you guys think about the possibility of the x-rays-thingys that Richard showed Juliet were from Ethan's wife?
Ethan was the one who was investigating Juliet, and now we know he could have a motive to find a fertility doctor ...

While I believe Ethan when he said that his wife died during childbirth, I don't think that his primary interest in Claire was her welfare. I think he saw Claire as the source of some answers to the Other's pregnancy issues and he was going to get those answers by hook or by crook. I think that Ethan wanted to keep the Others' family line going, he was fighting for their survival, and he would have done anything to do that. I think that he placed getting answers from Claire and her pregnancy and Aaron higher than he placed her well-being...

Essentially, I think that Ethan and the other Others are blinded by the cause. In a way, they're fighting their own war against something and there will be casualities. I think that Ben has warped their thinking, including Ethan's, for his own cause - although I do think that Ben wants to preserve the Island and the Others. However, he wants all that so that he can take from it as well...he'll do anything to preserve the Island and the Others, but he'll do anything to preserve his own position of power, too...

Another Jack one, but I've given up hope that Kate, Locke, Sawyer or Sayid will get one.

Interesting one. I wonder if the backstory about Ethan is actually true, It might be.

CF, I'm guessing the actors did not sign on to do them. Oh well.

Show spoiler:
As for Ethan, we know we'll be seeing him in episode 6, so I guess he filmed this around the same time! Yay!

I think Ethan is being 100% sincere in this conversation. I would even say that when he said 'hope the rescue comes' he was being sincere.

I don't think he was being sincere about that, more like resigned because he knows too well it's not coming. However, I think this mobisode gives more credence to Juliet's claim that Ethan went rogue on The Others because there's a level of personal involvement there we hadn't been privy to before. I believe he wanted to save Claire and her baby (surgeons, eh? :rolleyes: ), but I have a hard time imagining that was his number 1 priority. I don't know how in the know Alex was about it, but I don't think she got alarmed about "cutting the baby out of you" for no reason. I tend to agree with Junie on this, but I like that this mobisode nuanced Ethan's reasons and his reactions, just like I enjoyed having confirmation that Goodwin was somewhat emotionallly involved in his mission and pleaded Ana's cause with Ben. It makes them more complex, but it doesn't turn them into benevolent, misunderstood Samaritans for me.

There's a nice tie in here with ATBCHDI when Jack is ineptly running through the jungle, determined not to lose another pregnant woman under his care and distraught (per Javi's script) at the thought of another family destroyed and what I think Ethan thought he was doing by working for Ben: preventing another tragedy like the one his own family suffered. And then of course, Jack, Claire and Aaron are family... I wonder if The Others or Ethan ever knew that.

I agree Jynes, for some reason I always knew Ethan didn't go all crazy on Claire for no reason. Still doesn't explain Scott/Steve or hanging Charlie from a tree.

I see no mystery there. I haven't changed my perspective on The Others. I love their story, I feel different degrees of empathy for all of them, but they're still murderers and torturers of people whose only transgression against them was crashing on their damn island through no fault of their own.


What do you guys think about the possibility of the x-rays-thingys that Richard showed Juliet were from Ethan's wife?
Ethan was the one who was investigating Juliet, and now we know he could have a motive to find a fertility doctor ...

Hm. That might be a nice catch. Was the patient in question still alive at that point? It still could have been Sabine, we don't really know the timeline, do we? Damn, I really need to rewatch One Of Us. Good thing it's one of the best episodes of season three.

Essentially, I think that Ethan and the other Others are blinded by the cause. In a way, they're fighting their own war against something and there will be casualities. I think that Ben has warped their thinking, including Ethan's, for his own cause - although I do think that Ben wants to preserve the Island and the Others. However, he wants all that so that he can take from it as well...he'll do anything to preserve the Island and the Others, but he'll do anything to preserve his own position of power, too...

They lost something else in the process: a big part of what makes them human. Like I said, it's not black and white and I find each of them likeable and can find ways to wrap my mind around their motives, but I also think the Island gave Ben cancer and refused to cure him for a reason. Look at Alex's reaction to Jack in Stranger In A Strange Land (yeah, really... that's a pretty revealing episode for The Others' cult, if you look into it). You have a basically decent 16 yr. old kid whose adoptive father has pictures of her all over his walls and who seems to have had a rather good life on the Island, asking a doctor why he didn't let her father die. She seems befuddled by Jack's integrity, by his refusal to take a life of a man he hates, by the fact that while there are no outward consequences for him, on the contrary, a lot of people would be greatful to have her father dead, Jack still couldn't live with murder, by what his word means to him, etc. That's some twisted morality right there and it's reinforced by Locke telling Kate in Left Behind that now he knows what she did, that The Others judged her unworthy. :dog:, please! Life is cheap for the Others and you just shoved a guy through a sonic fence with the obvious intent to fry his brains.

This is a very good mobisode, I just referenced three episodes I intend to rewatch because of it, (ATBCHDI, One Of Us and SIASL). More, please!

I think Ethan was telling the truth. There is no reason for him to lie about that. But wow in retrospect Charlie is a murderer, it seems that Ethan was genuinely worried about ClaireI think he might have been telling the truth but I felt no compassion for him at all. I don't trust a thing that comes out of his mouth. He was there for one reason and one reason only ... to feel out these people and what better way than to show a doctor that you are not only compassionate about a very pregnant woman in their group but that you lost your wife and child in child birth (a very real possibility without any "Other" interference). I think it was all part of the ruse to get Jack to trust him. Whether the wife/baby was true or not ... I feel he told Jack just to get Jack to feel sympathetic towards him and it worked. Ethan = E.V.I.L. in my book.

Oooh, this one was actually interesting, so yeah... Jack, Juliet and Ben can be featured more, I'm not complaining.

Yep. And I think we saw it happening

in One Of Us. Deana, was it? No, it wasn't. It's Sabine, remembered it ten minutes later.

I think Ethan was lying about something, about the suitcase. There was no hypocondriac and I don't think he found it in the jungle, I think he brought it from Otherville, part of the effort to make sure Ben had a healthy lab rat in Claire.There was but I still think he got it from the Others. The hypochondriac that was on the island didn't have those kinds of meds with him. If he did, surely he would have brought them to Jack to try and get the rash healed.

This was another good and very interesting one. We of course are assuming that Ethan hung Charlie and that Ethan killed Sceve. We never saw either take place.I know we haven't been shown the deed being done, but I feel we've been more than told that it happened. Sometimes what we are told on the show, even if by belief of someone that didn't see it, it's truth. Personally, I think to show that it was someone else this far into the game (for me, anyway) would fall flat. It's too far into the story ... time to move on because, really, at this point in the game who cares if he did or didn't? He's dead, Charlie's dead and Claire and Aaron are alive and well (when we last saw them anyway ... :eek2:).

I agree, we have no reason to believe Ethan didn't hang Charlie from the tree. Just because he was invested in the Claire/baby thing still doens't "clear" him for that.

I wonder if Ethan just went nuts and did all of that by himself, wanting to cut the baby etc or if all the Others were involved.

I'm not able to watch it because of my busted computer at home... but am I to interpret this to mean Ethan himself gave Jack a suitcase full of medical supplies? Might this also be what contained the pregnancy kit? I think it's interesting they're saying here The Others themse;ves supplied the Losties, at least in the beginning (or maybe it was just Ethan). The revealtion that Ethan had a wife who died in childbirth really gives all of his actions a completely different spin -- he will most certainly feel justified to do whatever is necessary to brijng new life to the Island, the Others and in some way himself.

Totally agree, CR. If Ethan and his wife were willing to give her life and that of their unborn kid, then I'd say that they're dedicated to the cause, so to speak. As I mentioned before, I think that Ethan really believed in whatever it was that the Others were pursuing and probably considered it like he was in a war of sorts. Most people don't want to kill another person, but, if in a war, they're probably going to have to kill someone...or be killed. That being said, I do think that Ben has mislead the Others - although I do think that he is trying to honestly preserve the Island and its inhabitants. However, he's also "in it" for himself and the preserverence of the power that he has at the moment, dwindling as it seems to be. An analogy that I just thought of is that Ben is a bank robber that's saying that he and his cohorts need the money to further their cause, but he's going to take some of it and put it into his own checkbook...kind of like a twisted Robin Hood who does steal money and give SOME of it to the poor, but gives more of it to himself...
100%
ETA: Yes, CR, by the way...Ethan brought a suitcase/briefcase of medical supplies to Jack and said that he found it on the beach...

Tossing my 2 cents in again
I am leaning twords Ethan LOST his wife and child off island
and this is what led him to be vunerable and be recruited to 'Teh Island'
We know that Juliets husband was hit by a bus after
she said 'this' to Richard so possibly wife and child dieing
was orcastrated by The Others as well,don't know
it's just a thought
anyway I believe it is a possibility and how ever it happend
it led Ethan to come to Teh Island
As far as the Case of Drugs,Locke got on the plane with a Case of Knives
so this being Pre-911 who knows what went thru customs on Flight 815
If that passenger had perscription for all of it anything is possible
and we saw Ethan give Hurley a suitcase that had golf clubs
and other items so why not give Jack a Case of Drugs
and gain some TrusT so he could get closer to Claire
Just a thought

Flight 815 crashed on September 22nd, 2004. Of course, if they could get an AXE from the plane at that date, I suppose they could jam in Sullivan's case, but I still think Ethan brought those from his jungle stash or from Otherville.

It's exactly the infiltration MO we've seen from Goodwin on the other side of the island. Seek the emergent leader, show your face, gain trust by offering either your skills (Goodwin) or supplies that are needed (Ethan) and then keep your head down. If the top dog recognizes you as one of the pack, you don't need to worry about people asking questions.

I think it was all part of the ruse to get Jack to trust him.

As I said above... I think the method is sometimes called "the atomic fireman" and we've seen both Goodwin (running out of the jungle) and Juliet in One Of Us immediately trying to establish trust by making themselves useful.

I'm not able to watch it because of my busted computer at home... but am I to interpret this to mean Ethan himself gave Jack a suitcase full of medical supplies? Might this also be what contained the pregnancy kit?

Excellent catch! Not that we'll ever know (doubt it), but I think the answer to Kate's question is: "Nobody carries one of those on the plane, certainly not Sullivan."

ooops 2004 yeah I guess I LOST it on that one
My bad
but still Locke had a huge assortment of knives
and Sawyer found VERY interesting stuff
in the luggage,whiskey,porno,ect.
and look at ALL the tarps they found
as well as the ropes and other s
upplies they scavengered from the reckage
But Yes I'm leaning twords the
drugs being from the Medical Hatch
which was still functioning at this time
in the show
Sorry 'bout the date mistake

I'm intrigued about Ethan's statement that his wife died in childbirth. The two big questions are, is he telling the truth? and, was the child conceived on the Island? If both answers are "yes" then we have an interesting situation. Juliet said that the pregnant women all died before or during their second trimester--which is three months from labor. Did Ethan's wife last all the way through nine months and die "in childbirth" but women since her have been dying earlier, and, if so, why the change? Did she actually die miscarrying during the second trimester, and would a doctor call that "in childbirth" or was Ethan tilting the truth to fit it to Jack's concerns? Did she conceive off-Island and die from some non-Island related problem during labor and that was why Ethan was so adamant about controlling Claire's last weeks and labor--just in case?

I think that the idea that Ethan was trying to get on Jack's good side, to say that he's been there, too (dealing with a dangerous pregnancy), to give credence to his being around and possibly be of help, to come across as a good guy, to create a non-Other type of identity/to blend in...that he was doing all of this...

Well, I can't wait until this one's up on ABC!
Just reading the script, I could feel my eyes rolling when Ethan said he had found the suitcase in the wreckage (or words to that effect). I will withhold judgment on his veracity until after I see his expression when he talks about his wife and child.

This one kind falls into middle ground for me. Nothing terrible like Buried Secrets or Tropical Depression, but nothing cool like King of the Castle or Room 23. This is one that's just kind of there and seemed like it was made arbitratily. I don't see what point the suitcase served--other than a conversation piece. I wonder if the people making these episodes have even watched the episodes in which their mobisode is supposed to take place. Did anyone watching season 1 think Jack had a suitcase full of medicine? No. That's what made his search for the medicine all the more important.

Anyone know when this webisode goes up on abc?

Anyone know when this webisode goes up on abc?

I think it will be up next Monday, al.

I'm intrigued about Ethan's statement that his wife died in childbirth. The two big questions are, is he telling the truth? and, was the child conceived on the Island? If both answers are "yes" then we have an interesting situation. Juliet said that the pregnant women all died before or during their second trimester--which is three months from labor. Did Ethan's wife last all the way through nine months and die "in childbirth" but women since her have been dying earlier, and, if so, why the change? Did she actually die miscarrying during the second trimester, and would a doctor call that "in childbirth" or was Ethan tilting the truth to fit it to Jack's concerns?

Oh, that's an interesting point, I hadn't thought about it. That's a point for the off Island scenario. Maybe that's Ethan's backstory, how they recruited him. On the other hand, he may very well have tweaked the facts a bit to fit with Jack's concerns for Claire.

This is one that's just kind of there and seemed like it was made arbitratily.

I disagree, especially since (spoiler for upcoming episode)

we're going to see Ethan again very soon in an on island flashback.

I don't see what point the suitcase served--other than a conversation piece. I wonder if the people making these episodes have even watched the episodes in which their mobisode is supposed to take place. Did anyone watching season 1 think Jack had a suitcase full of medicine? No. That's what made his search for the medicine all the more important.

I think this mobisode takes place after Jack goes looking for medicine in the fuselage and even after the Marshal's death. It does make sense that Jack had a suitcase full of meds afterwards because he set up a little infirmary and even with a suitcase full of meds, the same concerns apply about dividing a limited supply to 40+ people. The point of the suitcase was that Ethan established himself in the group, gained trust (like Goodwin with Ana) by helping the losties.

I think Ethan was carefully manipulating the situation like other posters have said, to get Jack's trust. He and Goodwin were probably reporting back to Ben at intervals and he could have stocked the suitcase at any time from one of the hatches or Ben may have sent the meds with the plan to use them like this.

I don't think this humanizes Ethan at all, it just shows that he, like Goodwin, had a mission and were prepared to make it successful. Goodwin was ruthless but presented a decent face, so did Ethan. I am reminded of the scene with Ethan looking at Claire just before he took her. CREEPY! And I know we didn't actually SEE Ethan hang Charlie or kill Sceve, but the only other candidate I can realistically come up with, especially for Charlie, would be the smoke monster. And it would not have to hang Charlie to kill him. THAT was a message to Jack to stop following. The Smoke monster doesn't seem to have any affiliation or interest in the motives of the Others. So if it wasn't the smoke monster, it had to be Ethan or one of the Others. They were so far in the jungle at that point I don't think any Losties could have been around to do it.
JMHO.

[quote=Claudia815;1710599]However, I think this mobisode gives more credence to Juliet's claim that Ethan went rogue on The Others because there's a level of personal involvement there we hadn't been privy to before.

Juliet claimed Ethan was not to have taken Claire yet Tom says to Ethan in Maternity Leave -you were suppose to make the list before you brought her in. So that was the plan all along-to bring her in. But I think Ethan went overboard when she got loose. He might have thought she was in danger from the Losties (they were torturing and killing themselves and several were violent men). She was obviously calling to him in the jungle trying to find him. Perhaps in his mind they kidnapped her and he was worried? I just wonder why they didn't bring Claire into the group too. Because she was Jack's sister?

I don't know how in the know Alex was about it, but I don't think she got alarmed about "cutting the baby out of you" for no reason. She had a very good (but misguided) reason. From Alex's perspective every pregnant woman Ethan operated on died. Being just 16 she probably didn't understand why the pregnant women were dying or why Claire would likely live. She also didn't understand what a cesarean section was. To her "cutting the baby out" meant death so she tried to save Claire.

But what we saw were doctors (Juliet & Ethan?) preparing for a C-section. You don't go to all the trouble of sterile surgery for the baby. That's done to keep the mother alive and prevent post op infection. So Ethan was telling the truth when he said they would return Claire to the beach afterwards. Ben erred by not being more open with Alex and by trying to protect her from the harsh realities of the island too much.

Like I said, it's not black and white and I find each of them likeable and can find ways to wrap my mind around their motives, Both groups are very much alike which is why I am so drawn to Lost. Everything is done in shades of gray (despite the black/white theme). To the Losties the hostiles are the Others. To the hostiles the Losties are Them. We objectify our enemies.

but I also think the Island gave Ben cancer and refused to cure him for a reason. I know I’m being anal but all we know is that some entity/power on the island gave Ben a tumor. There was no evidence it was cancer. If an aggressive tumor (which it was according to Jack) was cancer, the patient would need chemo and radiation and probably would not survive. Instead Ben was on his feet and walking in little more than a week. I think there are several sources of power on the island. There is the island itself that I think has healing properties. Then there is Jacob and Cerberus (the traveling judge, jury & executioner) and maybe one or two more. I think Jacob gave Ben the tumor to retaliate against whatever power Ben has over him. The island countered by letting a spinal surgeon fall out of the sky.

Look at Alex's reaction to Jack in Stranger In A Strange Land .... You have a basically decent 16 yr. old kid whose adoptive father has pictures of her all over his walls and who seems to have had a rather good life on the Island, asking a doctor why he didn't let her father die. She seems befuddled by Jack's integrity, by his refusal to take a life of a man he hates, by the fact that while there are no outward consequences for him, on the contrary, a lot of people would be greatful to have her father dead, Jack still couldn't live with murder, by what his word means to him, etc. Jack had no problem taking the life of the man he hates. He agreed with Locke’s decision to torture Ben only because Ben was an Other. He had no knowledge of what Ben had done personally at that point. Ben was not a member of his group so it was all right to torture him.

Jack would have let her father die. He only operated on Ben because he got something he wanted in return. That is what he is talking about with Alex. Jack had an agreement with Ben. He would do the surgery and keep him alive if Ben would get him off the island. In the middle of the operation Jack renegotiated that agreement to include letting his friends go. He finished the operation (“I’ll do the operation”) even after his friends got off the island because he felt he was keeping his part of the bargain. But then immediately afterwards Ben’s life is again in danger from an infection and Jack withholds his medical help despite the “and I’ll keep you alive” part of their agreement. That is not what I call integrity. I've never heard of a doctor refusing to save a person’s life like that and I lost all respect for Jack afterwards. He used to be my favorite character but no more. I have no doubt Jack would save Rousseau’s life should she be injured because she is one of his people. Even though they know she has killed 5 people in cold blood, kidnapped Aaron and tried to give him to the Others and suggested to Claire that she kill Aaron should he get sick.

That's some twisted morality right thereFor both sides. It's sad that Alex doesn't have better role models or that Ben has not informed her of what is at stake here. IMHO in this instance Ben kept his word. Jack didn't. He violated the spirit of the Hippocratic Oath he took. and it's reinforced by Locke telling Kate in Left Behind that now he knows what she did, that The Others judged her unworthy. please! We only have Locke’s word on what was said. And given the fact he intended to kill one man (Patchy) and directly caused the death of another (his father) I wouldn’t believe him. Locke, one of the Losties, now believes he has the right to determine who lives and who dies. In that way he is acting like Jack.

Life is cheap for the Others Correction -life is cheap for both groups. The only difference is that the Others believe they are acting for a greater good (to the point of martyrdom) while the Losties are acting in their own self interest.

This is a very good mobisode, I just referenced three episodes I intend to rewatch because of it, (ATBCHDI, One Of Us and SIASL). More, please! We agree! I love all the mobisodes but a few more than the others. But this one had a purpose-to change our perception of the Others by giving us more information about them. Just like (DVD spoiler ahead):

The cut "Alex & Daddy" scene on the DVD set where we find out Ben had tried to stop Danny from beating up Sawyer. Ben made him give his word. So Ben never intended for Sawyer to be beat that way or for him to be killed.

Jack had no problem taking the life of the man he hates. He agreed with Locke’s decision to torture Ben only because Ben was an Other. He had no knowledge of what Ben had done personally at that point. Ben was not a member of his group so it was all right to torture him.


I'm confused. Whose life did Jack take and didn't Locke and Sayid trick Jack into locking Ben in the armory so Sayid could torture him and then Jack threatened Locke's button to force him to open the door so he could stop Sayid?

I kind of took Jack's withholding medical treatment or using it as a bargaining tool as a survival strategy more than his hatred of Ben or the Others. His medical skills were pretty much all he had to hold over their heads, believing that once he became useless to them they would kill him.

He put everything he had into trying to save Colleen and she was an Other so I don't think he really picks and chooses who he'll try to save based on whether or not they are one of his people. I think the guy is just doing his best to survive and make sure those around him survive.

Btw, somebody who can do such things could rename this thread - the mobisode production code is actually 102 now, not 111.

Funnily enough I was watching 'All the Best Cowboys have Daddy issues' last night - which is where Charlie was hung from the tree. Ethan didn't seem to be much of a 'good guy'....the beating he gave Jack was extremely vicious and he said he would kill 'one of them' (meaning Charlie or Claire) if Jack didn't stop following. We all know he wasn't going to kill Claire so he obviously carried out his threat with Charlie. I know it could have been one of the other 'others' ho actually did the deed but Ethan was definatley involved.

Loved the mobisode btw!!! I think Ethan's wife was one for the women who have died on the island and that the meds supplies came from the others!

Juliet claimed Ethan was not to have taken Claire yet Tom says to Ethan in Maternity Leave -you were suppose to make the list before you brought her in. So that was the plan all along-to bring her in. But I think Ethan went overboard when she got loose. He might have thought she was in danger from the Losties (they were torturing and killing themselves and several were violent men).

I agree the plan was to bring her in all along, we see Ben talk to Mikhail about a possible future mom when the plane crashed. Not so sure about protecting her from the losties... there is absolutely no evidence that any of the violent men there would have ever hurt a pregnant woman.

She had a very good (but misguided) reason. From Alex's perspective every pregnant woman Ethan operated on died. Being just 16 she probably didn't understand why the pregnant women were dying or why Claire would likely live. She also didn't understand what a cesarean section was. To her "cutting the baby out" meant death so she tried to save Claire.

I was thinking the same about Alex, that she was confused and thought Ethan, Juliet and co. were harming the women when they were trying to save them, but I hope she knows what a C section is! I think I was familiar with the term by the time I was 10. It would just strike me as odd if a man as educated and pedantic as Ben raised his adoptive daughter to be an ignorant teenybopper.

Both groups are very much alike

I don't agree with this because for me, it all starts with the original sin if you will. None of the passengers on the plane wanted to crash on their stupid island. Once they did, they weren't the ones who invaded the Others camp and started kindapping people. I see the shades of gray and I enjoy the story more because of them, but that doesn't change my perspective on the others as a murderous sect led by a psychopath. I'm pretty sure it's all for the greater good, but I think Ben's lost his humanity a long time ago.

To the hostiles the Losties are Them. We objectify our enemies.

On Day One, the losties were a bunch of ragged, dehydrated and confused survivors of a traumatic plane crash. All Ben had to do was show up at the beach and go: "Howdy! So your plane crashed, huh? Bummer. Well, we have our small community here, but we've lost contact with the outside world so good luck with that rescue. In the meantime, here's some food and some medicine and a map to the water stream in the jungle. I'm afraid we can't host all of you, but we can offer a bed for the pregnant lady and the wounded passengers and help you out with whatever supplies we can spare." etc, etc, etc.

I know I’m being anal but all we know is that some entity/power on the island gave Ben a tumor.

Fair enough. It gave him something that kills fast either way.

I think Jacob gave Ben the tumor to retaliate against whatever power Ben has over him. The island countered by letting a spinal surgeon fall out of the sky.

I like that theory very much, the Jacob part in particular. I'm not very fond of the Island as a sentient entity, but then again I don't believe in Fate either and the writers do ,so tough luck. :biggrin:

Jack had no problem taking the life of the man he hates.

Who, Ben? He held Ben's kidney hostage to release his friends, something he needn't have done if Ben hadn't kidnapped them instead of doing what I said above and then in the spirit of good neighborhood go to Jack and simply ask for help.

He agreed with Locke’s decision to torture Ben only because Ben was an Other.

I think flyer answered that one.

He had no knowledge of what Ben had done personally at that point. Ben was not a member of his group so it was all right to torture him.

Ben was the representative of a group that hat had broken every bone in Scott's body, strung up Charlie in a tree, kidnapped a pregnant girl and children and a whole bunch of people from the other side of the Island. Jack knew too well what Ben's group had done long before he was caught in Danielle's net.

Jack would have let her father die. He only operated on Ben because he got something he wanted in return.

And who put him in that position in the first place? He didn't lock himself up and held himself hostage.

That is not what I call integrity.

Holding your end of the bargain? No, in Jack's case it's what I call survival. It all goes back to the original sin. He didn't ask to crash on the Island, didn't ask to have himself and his friends shot with darts and imprisoned like animals, etc.

I've never heard of a doctor refusing to save a person’s life like that and I lost all respect for Jack afterwards.

So Ben's the honorable little victim in this one? Interesting.

I have no doubt Jack would save Rousseau’s life should she be injured because she is one of his people. Even though they know she has killed 5 people in cold blood, kidnapped Aaron and tried to give him to the Others and suggested to Claire that she kill Aaron should he get sick.

Me neither. Because doctors don't withold medical treatment based on their patient's morality, but in this case, Jack bargained with Ben's treatment because Ben put him in that position where it was his only choice and the only way he could save the lives of his friends.

IMHO in this instance Ben kept his word. Jack didn't. He violated the spirit of the Hippocratic Oath he took.

There would have been absolutely no need for that if Ben had gone to him and said: "I have a tumor on my spine. I need a spinal surgeon or I'll die." Before all the torture, manipulations and kindappings that is.

We only have Locke’s word on what was said. And given the fact he intended to kill one man (Patchy) and directly caused the death of another (his father) I wouldn’t believe him. Locke, one of the Losties, now believes he has the right to determine who lives and who dies.

Oh, I don't particularly trust Locke either, but we've seen the Others be arrogant and riding their moral high horse before, even loveable Tom. It's not a stretch of the imagination for me.


The cut "Alex & Daddy" scene on the DVD set where we find out Ben had tried to stop Danny from beating up Sawyer. Ben made him give his word. So Ben never intended for Sawyer to be beat that way or for him to be killed.

I'm not about to erect Ben a statue for that. Maybe he shouldn't have kidnapped Sawyer in the first place.

It's good fun to try to look at this from all angles, but... no, I don't think Ben is an unsung hero and Jack is an amoral doctor who refused medical treatment to the poor mild-mannered gentleman who kidnapped him and his friends and routinely terrorized a bunch of people whose big sin was crashing on his island through no fault of their own.

Claudia,
I agree with everything you wrote above! Brava! :clapping:

I agree with Guinevere, well done Claudia!
It's easy for people who have never been put into a situation where they would have to make a serious decision that might go against their personal beliefs or morals to cast doubt on others (even if those others are fictional characters). No one really knows what they will do in situations such as those depicted on Lost (or similar) until you've faced them yourself. So I would advise caution to those who, like the Others, claim to maintain the moral high ground while looking in from the outside.

Different thought: I find it interesting that the mobisodes seem to be going in reverse order. As you watch them on ABC it's as if you're going from the pilot to just before the end of season 3.

I think Ethan was telling the truth. There is no reason for him to lie about that. But wow in retrospect Charlie is a murderer, it seems that Ethan was genuinely worried about Claire

I liked this mobisode. It was indeed refreshing to see a normal Ethan, like he looked in "Not in Portland." I also think he's telling the truth about his wife and kid, and how he found the suitcase full of medicine.

On the other hand, I dont think we can label Charlie a murderer. The Ethan who hung Charlie and fought Jack was a Cerberus Ethan. He didnt look, act and talk the same. Like he did a complete 180. Strangely enough, I'm starting to wonder if Jacob or Cerberus are responsible for the sickness? Sorry to go off track a second...

Ben, we speculate, is doing something behind the others backs and possibly Jacob's. We had Juliet telling Jack she was tired of living Benjamin Linus's dream. Can this cure finding be from Ben? And Jacob is trying to avoid Island births? Just a thought.

Again, the mobisode was pretty good.
Eric.

Am I the only one who got creeped out by Jack in this episode? Some of those looks he gave Ethan, it was like Jack knew something that Ethan didn't.

The shot of Claire is a reversed image from Pilot 1.

There's also some continuity weirdness with the meds in the suitcase. Ethan pulls out the big bottle, and then we cut to the meds inside, and lo and behold the big bottle is back in the suitcase.

When Ethan and Jack shake hands, each is holding three bottles in his left hand. That was kind of a weird symmetry.

Ethan's story about losing his wife and child not only would strike a chord with Jack because of Claire but also remind him of the pregnant woman who died because of his father's negligence. Cool to realize in retrospect that the imperiled pregnancy trope was there so far back.

Cardie

Ethan's story about losing his wife and child not only would strike a chord with Jack because of Claire but also remind him of the pregnant woman who died because of his father's negligence. Cool to realize in retrospect that the imperiled pregnancy trope was there so far back.

Cardie

Like echoes from the past rippling in on the Island...and out into the future?...
Eric

Claudia and Flyer - Thanks to both of you! OMG, it's just amazing the completely different things people see. It really boggles the brain how far-reaching it gets! I notice a couple other people thanked you and agreed with you, and I have to agree with them. Thank you for taking the time to answer each point brought up in a rational and well-thought out way. That can be so rare on these boards at times.

Doc

That's nice of you, but there's no need to thank me, I wasn't out saving lives or anything, I'm just having fun. I quite enjoy debate when I feel it's worth the trouble and I enjoy people's different points of view even when I disagree with them. :smile: I actually understand the "misunderstood Others" perspective, but some of the facts just don't fit, even if I can see the nuances.

Cardie, while I'm no fan of the SuperSwimmers storyline (egads!), I also enjoyed the way Claire's pregnancy was interwoven both here and in ATBCHDI, where Jack is desperate to find her and determined to stop another tragedy like the one in his past, whereas Ethan is probably attempting the same thing, in his own twisted way. Now if only we'd find out more about baby Aaron and why he's so special...

Loved this one! First it has Jack, and you can't really go wrong there, plus Ethan, who freaks me out so tremendously, I just love it when they bring him back. And great posts. I agree with all of you and disagree at the same time.

First, I completely believe that Ethan lost a wife and child. Whether on or off the island, I'm not sure. Saying she died "in childbirth" does make it sound off-island, since the women on the island don't make it to the third trimester per Juliet, and because that would have made him a great target for recruitment by The Others.

On the other hand, it seems to make more sense that this happened on-island, and Ethan just fudged the story a bit. This would explain why Ethan genuinely seem to get attached to Claire (transference), and why he is so committed to Ben's fertility research (which not all The Others seem interested in). If his loved one gave her life to an experiment (recall Ben and Juliet said the women on the island knew the risks in getting pregnant), he'd probably want to make damn sure that research was eventually successful, so the death would not be in vain.

I'm also positive Ethan brought the Losties the meds from the medical hatch or Otherville. This fits in with the fact that The Others initially seemed to want to help the Losties (whether out of pure altruism or simply in a "fatten the calf" way, I'm not sure). Goodwin was pretty helpful on his side of the Island also. And remember when Ethan found those golf clubs and brought them to Hurley? He said he found them "in the jungle" too, and it was just when the Losties really needed something to distract them from their tragedy and improve their spirits.

I also agree that The Others were not going to kill Claire, mainly because there was no reason to do so. Alex was simply mistaken. We know that Ben was concerned that Alex might get pregnant by Carl, so it seems likely he hadn't told her that women who get pregnant on The Island die along with their babies. And why didn't he tell her that? Because then she would know he wasn't her real father. Alex probably knew what a c-section was, but was left to speculate that the pregnant women she knew had been killed during these procedures, and something strange was done with the babies.

One other tid bit about Ethan I think it interesting in the context of this episode, I don't think he's a surgeon (just because he was in a surgery, doesn't make him a surgeon - Juliet's not a surgeon either). Last season, we learned about the Mittelos Bioscience website had information where Ethan was identified as he was a Ph.D, not an M.D., with a specialty in genetic research.

I now have to disagree with an earlier poster on a couple counts (and I apologize because most of your post was very good). First, you would prepare a sterile surgical area for a C-section to prevent infection in the baby and the mother. The baby is at risk of infection as well, so although I agree that The Others were not going to kill Claire, the fact that they prepared a sterile surgical room is not proof of that.

Also, while a tumor is not necessarily cancer (a tumor is just a collection of abnormal cells in the body), we can assume Ben's tumor was cancerous because Jack stated it was "aggressive". That means the cells of the tumor are replicating and destroying surrounding tissues. That's what makes it definitively cancerous.

It's also incorrect that a patient would require radiation and chemo post surgical excision of a cancerous tumor. If a tumor is self-contained and completely removed through surgery, it is possible that no follow up treatment with chemo or radiation would be required.

I also disagree that Jack broke his oath in threatening Ben with lack of treatment. The oath requires the physician to do no harm. There is no vow about not threatening harm, and I personally believe that Jack would not have let Ben die. He was just bluffing. Remember, he's a great poker player.

Funnily enough I was watching 'All the Best Cowboys have Daddy issues' last night - which is where Charlie was hung from the tree. Ethan didn't seem to be much of a 'good guy'....the beating he gave Jack was extremely vicious and he said he would kill 'one of them' (meaning Charlie or Claire) if Jack didn't stop following. We all know he wasn't going to kill Claire so he obviously carried out his threat with Charlie. I know it could have been one of the other 'others' ho actually did the deed but Ethan was definatley involved.

Good point about Ethan. He beat my man Jack down viciously! I shan't forget that, no matter how human he has appeared on a couple occasions.


Ben was the representative of a group that had had broken every bone in Scott's body, strung up Charlie in a tree, kidnapped a pregnant girl and children and a whole bunch of people from the other side of the Island. Jack knew too well what Ben's group had done long before he was caught in Danielle's net . . .
There would have been absolutely no need for that if Ben had gone to him and said: "I have a tumor on my spine. I need a spinal surgeon or I'll die." Before all the torture, manipulations and kindappings that is.


I agree with most of what you said in your posts, Claudia, but I must point out that we don't know for sure that The Others killed Scott (or was it Steve?). They probably did, but the shape his body was in also fits Smokey's M.O. very well. Just a possibility I'm throwing out. I'm not committed to it, but it's worth mentioning.

Also, I think Ben originally may have had a much less complicated plan for getting Jack to do the surgery (perhaps just asking him). But after Ethan screwed up and took Claire and Charlie was nearly killed, Ben realized Jack would hate The Others and refuse to help him, so his plan had to get a lot more complicated.

As to the debate about the goodness versus evilness of The Others, I suppose it depends on your perspective. If you believe The Greater Good philosophy, it will depend on "why" they are doing what they are doing. If on the other hand you believe in the virtue ethics philosophy (like Jack), a beneficial end can never justify an evil means. Personally, I wavier between these two philosophies. I think evil acts are evil acts, period, no matter the end result, but then again I felt it was perfectly acceptable for Sayid to torture Ben when I only suspected he might be an Other. It seems The Others aren't the only ones playing fast and loose with morality here, so I'm going to reserve my final judgement on all of them until I know more about what's happening on The Island.

I also have to say there is a very good reason to think that Ethan may not have been the one that strung Charlie up by his neck. It would have been impossible for him to drag a very pregnant Claire and Charlie into the jungle alone (and leave no trail as Kate pointed out). It's clear to me that someone helped him, so it remains possible that this other person was the one that hurt Charlie (not that this would make Ethan less culpable - he was still involved).

Last, I wonder where Ethan got that Michigan sweatshirt. He wasn't wearing it when he left Otherville. Have their been any Michigan references on the show before?

First, I completely believe that Ethan lost a wife and child. Whether on or off the island, I'm not sure. Saying she died "in childbirth" does make it sound off-island, since the women on the island don't make it to the third trimester per Juliet, and because that would have made him a great target for recruitment by The Others.

On the other hand, it seems to make more sense that this happened on-island, and Ethan just fudged the story a bit. This would explain why Ethan genuinely seem to get attached to Claire (transference), and why he is so committed to Ben's fertility research (which not all The Others seem interested in). If his loved one gave her life to an experiment (recall Ben and Juliet said the women on the island knew the risks in getting pregnant), he'd probably want to make damn sure that research was eventually successful, so the death would not be in vain. I'm of the mind that Ethan's wife died due to the island pregnancy curse. (At first I wondered if he was lying, but it adds so much to his character for it to be true.) "In childbirth" is much less complicated than explaining the whole thing, and to a total stranger. I get suspicious of people who start giving me their complete and detailed life story in the first minute of introduction, and Ethan was calculating this to establish himself as Mr. Everyman Who Wants To Help.

I also agree that The Others were not going to kill Claire, mainly because there was no reason to do so. Alex was simply mistaken. We know that Ben was concerned that Alex might get pregnant by Carl, so it seems likely he hadn't told her that women who get pregnant on The Island die along with their babies. And why didn't he tell her that? Because then she would know he wasn't her real father. Alex probably knew what a c-section was, but was left to speculate that the pregnant women she knew had been killed during these procedures, and something strange was done with the babies. That makes a lot of sense now that people have mentioned it. Despite her independence and resourcefulness, Alex was probably kept in the dark about the pregnancy problem on the island since it had been present all her life, and Ben didn't look like the kind of parent who would sit her down for "the talk". So she rightly concluded that pregnant women die. But did she think her people killed the other pregnant women?


I also disagree that Jack broke his oath in threatening Ben with lack of treatment. The oath requires the physician to do no harm. There is no vow about not threatening harm, and I personally believe that Jack would not have let Ben die. He was just bluffing. Remember, he's a great poker player. True. Does the Geneva Convention require doctors to treat the enemy while the doctors are prisoners of the enemy? Anyway, on both occasions he bargained medical treatment of Ben for someone else's life - Kate and Sawyer's, and later Juliet's.

I also have to say there is a very good reason to think that Ethan may not have been the one that strung Charlie up by his neck. It would have been impossible for him to drag a very pregnant Claire and Charlie into the jungle alone (and leave no trail as Kate pointed out). It's clear to me that someone helped him, so it remains possible that this other person was the one that hurt Charlie (not that this would make Ethan less culpable - he was still involved). He probably did have help, since the island makes super-sperm :rolleyes: but apparently doesn't also make super-muscles like it was speculated once regarding Ethan. It's no coicidence that both Ethan's threats came true - he threatened Jack that he would kill one of them (Claire or Charlie) if they didn't stop following them in ATBCHDI, and he threatened Charlie later that he would kill one of his beachmates every day until he brought Claire to him. I think that makes it pretty clear. I guess they could backtrack by making Smokie culpable in Scott-or-Steve's death, but I think it would diminish the impact.

Last, I wonder where Ethan got that Michigan sweatshirt. He wasn't wearing it when he left Otherville. Have their been any Michigan references on the show before? It actually was a Wisconsin sweatshirt. I just listened to the commentary for Expose and Kitsis & Horowitz said that Wisconsin was their alma mater and it's just a nod to that. Badgers are rather loyal to their school! :biggrin:

Ethan didnt hang Charlie
I think its very safe to say that Ethan did not Hang Charlie on the tree, I heard comments from one of the writers/creators (think it was Cuse) something to the fact" We never saw Ethan hang charlie" stressing that there was more than meets the eye.

And I do believe we will see who did and what happened to charlie. very possible it could have been smokie.

Ben, "We are not Killers"


- this mobisode was to show "the down to earth" side of Ethan, and to re-specify that the others are humans with (in their minds) good intentions and not as hostile as they thought.

- also, were did he get the suitcase of meds... depends on what day that this conversation took place between Jack and Ethan, He could have taken it off of the plane, or if there was enuff time..then he very well could have made a trip back to otherville and brought back the case with him.

- Delivery the meds, was it another sign that the others were trying to help the losties with proper meds, OR was the meds that Ethan delivered tainted? did the meds that Ethan deliver have something in them?

- Also, i think that something in the case that Ethan Delivered to Jack has something to do with the comment in the previous "Missing Pieces" episode of Paulo and his woman, where they entered Jack's tent and suddenly they had the urge to..you know.
Something in the case was still in Jack's Tent ! imo

- yeah i agree, Ethan was telling the truth about losing his wife and child.


basically they want to show that the others ARE the good guys and get ready for the Hostiles.

there will be a duality of who we should beliefe are the "Good Guys" the others or the hostiles.

The Others are the hostiles. After the purge Ben and perhaps a few other Dharma folks joined the native population of the island, whom the DI called "the hostiles."

And the cut Nikki/Paulo scene was filmed and deleted for a regular episode. These "missing pieces" are shot brand new and were not deleted scenes.

Cardie

This was fabulous! *swoon*

my cards are on the table elsewhere on these boards as to my belief that Alex is an unreliable witness, the case against Ethan as killer unproved and the Others' intentions over Claire's delivery (as safe a one as they could give believing as they appeared to that surgical intervention was necessary) so I'll leave yous this:

I believe absolutely that Ethan was telling the truth about loosing his wife and child, and it saddens me to read his utterly convincing heartbreak and crippling fear for Claire's wellbeing are interpreted as manipulation.

I'm astounded - though you'd think by now I'd have come to expect - that his expected baby is described in terms of having been created for Ben's dream. Couldn't Ethan's baby have been an expression of his wife's love for him? Couples have children - and NO pregnancy is without risk. Expectant mum's do die, it doesn't require a killer Island to do it.

I believed Ben when he reassured Juliet it was Sabine's choice to get pregnant (and hope Juliet is unintentionally pregnant to Goodwin for balance).

Did Ethan's wife deliver on the Island, was she one of the nine women Juliet lost? Yes I think so.

I was going to argue that her patient, Sabine, was not Ethan's wife because he was so composed on her death, but...

Ethan Rom doesn't just rearange into Other Man, it also produces 'The Roman'.

~ I'm going to presume you know where I'm coming from ...and go ;) if I stay any longer, I'll start playing the contrarian against my own points :rolleyes: lol - too many possibilities ~

I enjoyed this episode. I do believe that Ethan lost his wife and child but I just haven't figured out if it's on Island or not. I tend to think not and that was the catalyst for bringing Ethan to the Island. It also explains why Ethan became obsessed with Claire and "went off the reservation" as far as the Hostile Others were concerned.
I noticed the Wisconsin sweat shirt right away as well. It seemed odd that he would be wearing it even if he purloined it from one of the suitcases. Sweatshirt, sunny beach?! Whew! Stanky! :sick:
I think the debate over whether or not Ethan hung Charlie is probably moot because, even if he didn't actually do it himself and he had help, he's still culpable for the act.
If I had a criticism of the mobisode, it would be that Ethan should have told Jack about his wife and child while they were looking at Claire. JMO though.

On the other hand, it seems to make more sense that this happened on-island, and Ethan just fudged the story a bit. This would explain why Ethan genuinely seem to get attached to Claire (transference), and why he is so committed to Ben's fertility research (which not all The Others seem interested in). If his loved one gave her life to an experiment (recall Ben and Juliet said the women on the island knew the risks in getting pregnant), he'd probably want to make damn sure that research was eventually successful, so the death would not be in vain.

Regardless of whether the baby was custom-conceived or not, that's pretty much how I see his interest in Claire too, which is why I believe his story about losing his family. It adds two different layers in one shot: one for his interest in Claire and one for his relationship with Ben/Ben's project, etc.

One other tid bit about Ethan I think it interesting in the context of this episode, I don't think he's a surgeon (just because he was in a surgery, doesn't make him a surgeon - Juliet's not a surgeon either). Last season, we learned about the Mittelos Bioscience website had information where Ethan was identified as he was a Ph.D, not an M.D., with a specialty in genetic research.

Hm. Could be. I don't really see any reason for Ben to lie about losing their only surgeon though. It was very conversational and part of a snark exchange with Jack and I don't think it's possible to not have a surgeon in their situation. If they didn't have one where the first pregnant woman died, you think they'd be prepared for it by now. It's not very clear to me if Ethan can be both a surgeon on a scientist at the same time, I'm not very knowledgeable in this field.


I agree with most of what you said in your posts, Claudia, but I must point out that we don't know for sure that The Others killed Scott (or was it Steve?). They probably did, but the shape his body was in also fits Smokey's M.O. very well. Just a possibility I'm throwing out. I'm not committed to it, but it's worth mentioning.

True. It would be mighty convenient though for Smokey to kill a lostie the night after Ethan threatened Charlie to kill one of his people a day.

Also, I think Ben originally may have had a much less complicated plan for getting Jack to do the surgery (perhaps just asking him). But after Ethan screwed up and took Claire and Charlie was nearly killed, Ben realized Jack would hate The Others and refuse to help him, so his plan had to get a lot more complicated.

There's quite a few things he could have offered the stranded losties, I'm sure Jack would not have hesitated to improve everyone's life on the island by trading his skills. Supply and demand, Benjamin.

Personally, I wavier between these two philosophies. I think evil acts are evil acts, period, no matter the end result, but then again I felt it was perfectly acceptable for Sayid to torture Ben when I only suspected he might be an Other. It seems The Others aren't the only ones playing fast and loose with morality here

Oh, absolutely not. I'll stick to my original sin though. I didn't think it was acceptable for Sayid and Locke to torture Ben while he was locked up and there was no vital piece of info that needed to be retrieved and retrieved FAST. Because while I was pretty sure he was an Other, they weren't, but I think more than any issue of morality, I was opposed to it because I knew just by looking at Ben's face that torture would be in vain and he'd never give up anything this way.

True. Does the Geneva Convention require doctors to treat the enemy while the doctors are prisoners of the enemy? Anyway, on both occasions he bargained medical treatment of Ben for someone else's life - Kate and Sawyer's, and later Juliet's.

Thank you.

basically they want to show that the others ARE the good guys.

Well, that was easy. I'm just harder to convince I guess. We weren't shown that Ethan didn't hang Charlie either. I think he had help (I suspected Juliet after I saw her tie that knot at the end of One Of Us), but he did it.


I believe absolutely that Ethan was telling the truth about loosing his wife and child

So do I. It's what makes most sense for the story. I'm 100% convinced.

and it saddens me to read his utterly convincing heartbreak and crippling fear for Claire's wellbeing are interpreted as manipulation.

I just happen to think the two can co-exist very well. He is heartbroken about his own tragedy and he does fear it will be repeated with Claire and wants to prevent it. He is also following Ben's orders and adopts a very good, smart strategy to infiltrate the losties' camp and place himself above any suspicion. It's a strategy we saw repeated with Goodwin and it worked for both.

I'm astounded - though you'd think by now I'd have come to expect - that his expected baby is described in terms of having been created for Ben's dream. Couldn't Ethan's baby have been an expression of his wife's love for him?

Those two aren't mutually exclussive either. It's just a theory, but I don't think having a designer baby for Ben means they didn't want that baby or wouldn't have loved it for what it would have been, flesh of their flesh, anyway.

I was going to argue that her patient, Sabine, was not Ethan's wife because he was so composed on her death, but...

Ethan Rom doesn't just rearange into Other Man, it also produces 'The Roman'.


I don't think he kidnapped her. ;) I really have to go back and rewatch how composed he was, but there were 9 women who died on that operating table. It doesn't have to be Sabine just because we've seen her before, but I'm convinced Ethan's wife was one of them.

Might this also be what contained the pregnancy kit? I think it's interesting they're saying here The Others themse;ves supplied the Losties

KATE: "Where did Sawyer find one of these anyway? I mean, who flies with a pregnancy test, right?"

:cool:

Ethan didnt hang Charlie
I think its very safe to say that Ethan did not Hang Charlie on the tree, I heard comments from one of the writers/creators (think it was Cuse) something to the fact" We never saw Ethan hang charlie" stressing that there was more than meets the eye.

Funny enough, I agree. I think Charlie hung himself, per Ethan's instructions.

Claire: What... what happened to Charlie?
Ethan: Charlie? Oh, he's fine. When we got far enough away from camp, I let him go back.

Ben, "We are not Killers"

Just because Ben says that, doesn't make it so. Let's look at the evidence:


A few years ago Ben joined the group of natives that DHARMA called The Hostiles. Ben and this group then proceeded to release deathly gas around the island that killed everyone in the DI and Ben personally opened the canister that killed his own father.
Ben provided Locke with a knife and urged him to kill his father, later, he told Locke to bring him Cooper's body or forget about membership to their exclusive little club.
Ben himself put a bullet into Locke and left him to die in the DHARMA pit because Locke had been favored by Jacob.
When Tom radioed Ben from the beach and he found out the Losties had pulled a fast one on him, he told Tom: "Kill Kwon", so that the other two prisoners would give up the rest of the plan. Unlike the phony order he gave Tom later (when he was talking to Jack), this one wasn't planned in advance. Ben meant that order to kill Jin. He was taken by surprise by the Losties plan, so he didn't have any time to plan a phony "Kill Kwon" order with Tom.
Ben gave Mikhail the order to kill Greta and Bonnie in the TLG station, along with Charlie. Orders which Mikhail executed without hesitation.I'll not go into all the lies Ben has told so far, but we all know he's a big liar. That particular line is a psychological manipulation, and anyone following the show can certainly see that Ben and his pose are indeed killers.

Just because Ben says that, doesn't make it so. Let's look at the evidence:


A few years ago Ben joined the group of natives that DHARMA called The Hostiles. Ben and this group then proceeded to release deathly gas around the island that killed everyone in the DI and Ben personally opened the canister that killed his own father.
Ben provided Locke with a knife and urged him to kill his father, later, he told Locke to bring him Cooper's body or forget about membership to their exclusive little club.
Ben himself put a bullet into Locke and left him to die in the DHARMA pit because Locke had been favored by Jacob.
When Tom radioed Ben from the beach and he found out the Losties had pulled a fast one on him, he told Tom: "Kill Kwon", so that the other two prisoners would give up the rest of the plan. Unlike the phony order he gave Tom later (when he was talking to Jack), this one wasn't planned in advance. Ben meant that order to kill Jin. He was taken by surprise by the Losties plan, so he didn't have any time to plan a phony "Kill Kwon" order with Tom.
Ben gave Mikhail the order to kill Greta and Bonnie in the TLG station, along with Charlie. Orders which Mikhail executed without hesitation.I'll not go into all the lies Ben has told so far, but we all know he's a big liar. That particular line is a psychological manipulation, and anyone following the show can certainly see that Ben and his pose are indeed killers.

I agree with Crazy. The Others ARE killers. They killed Scott, Nathan, and who knows who else. There is no reason to believe that Ethan did not hang Charlie. From what we seen so far, Claire's abduction was a one man operation. Didn't Tom even say something to the effect that Ethan was rogue?

Hm. Could be. I don't really see any reason for Ben to lie about losing their only surgeon though. It was very conversational and part of a snark exchange with Jack and I don't think it's possible to not have a surgeon in their situation. If they didn't have one where the first pregnant woman died, you think they'd be prepared for it by now. It's not very clear to me if Ethan can be both a surgeon on a scientist at the same time, I'm not very knowledgeable in this field.

Ethan could be a surgeon and a scientist, but I'm pretty sure he could not be a surgeon if he is a Ph.D. He would have to be an M.D. or D.O. And I personally lean towards the view that everything Ben's says is a lie, but that's just my skeptical side.


There's quite a few things he could have offered the stranded losties, I'm sure Jack would not have hesitated to improve everyone's life on the island by trading his skills. Supply and demand, Benjamin.


Agreed. I'm just pointing out that I believe Ethan's decision to take Claire dramatically changed any plan The Others had for the Losties. Their plan was also changed dramatically when Danielle captured Ben. I'm very curious about what the original plan might have been.


Well, that was easy. I'm just harder to convince I guess. We weren't shown that Ethan didn't hang Charlie either. I think he had help (I suspected Juliet after I saw her tie that knot at the end of One Of Us), but he did it.

I totally forgot about Juliet's knot-making capabilities, but she is one of my prime suspects for who helped Ethan bring them back.

And I love the previously mentioned theory that Charlie hung himself. I don't buy it, because he's way too much of a wimp, but it's intriguing!

And just to correct CL, Ben didn't join the Dharma Initiative. He was taken there by his father when he was a child. Since we've only seen one flash back for Ben, we still don't know why he stayed there into adulthood (did he have a choice?), what Dharma was up to and why the hostiles wanted them gone, etc. I wouldn't trust one of The Others for anything, but I think we'd be smart not to make up our minds about them completely until we've seen more, particularly since the producers have hinted heavily that we'll be seeing things this season that make us see them in a different light.

I could liken the Losties experience with The Others to a dog's experience at the vet. From the dog's view, most of what's being done is torture. Without a knowledge of medicine, they can't view the actions taken against them as anything but evil. But we as their masters know that all those painful things that are being done are actually to help them.

I started thinking this after Ben shot Locke. If he wanted Locke dead, he could have and should have shot him more than once, preferrably in the head. Instead he rendered a life-threatening but slow bleeding gut wound, and left him alone, knowing full well The Island would probably cure him. That has always made me believe that Ben didn't want Locke dead, but wanted to put him in the position to receive a message from The Island, that would get Locke to help Ben in his mission safeguard The Island.

I started thinking this after Ben shot Locke. If he wanted Locke dead, he could have and should have shot him more than once, preferrably in the head. Instead he rendered a life-threatening but slow bleeding gut wound, and left him alone, knowing full well The Island would probably cure him. That has always made me believe that Ben didn't want Locke dead, but wanted to put him in the position to receive a message from The Island, that would get Locke to help Ben in his mission safeguard The Island.

Then why take him to the pit of bodies? Ben was just angry and jealous that Jacob actually communicated with Locke and saw him as a threat to his leadership. If he had just wanted to bring Locke to the brink of death, there are better ways to do it. He left him alive because he knew that lying in a pit waiting to die where no one could find you would be a horrible way to go. He shot him out of jealousy, but he shot him in the manner that he did out of malice. I don't think he really expected the island/Walt to help him.

And just to correct CL, Ben didn't join the Dharma Initiative.

sandiego, before correcting me, please read my post I said:

A few years ago Ben joined the group of natives that DHARMA called The Hostiles.

Ben joined, by choice, the group that Richard belonged to. This group was called the Hostiles by the DI. I never said Ben joined the DI and I never said he was on the island voluntarily.

He was taken there by his father when he was a child. Since we've only seen one flash back for Ben, we still don't know why he stayed there into adulthood (did he have a choice?),

He couldn't wait to join Richard's group. He did have a choice, and he clearly chose to stay with the Hostiles and help them, but he had to be told, by Richard to be patient. Doesn't get any choicier than that.

what Dharma was up to and why the hostiles wanted them gone, etc. I wouldn't trust one of The Others for anything, but I think we'd be smart not to make up our minds about them completely until we've seen more, particularly since the producers have hinted heavily that we'll be seeing things this season that make us see them in a different light.

I don't care what DHarma was up to or why the Hostiles wanted them gone. You just don't gas an entire community with the innocent and the guilty alike. Ben's father was mean, and a terrible man, but he was just a lackey for Dharma, he wasn't involved in any of th eexperiments the DI was performing, he was just a janitor, doing his job. Did he desrve to die? I don't think so.

For the sake of argument let's assume that the DI was evil and they were destroying the island and killing the natives (AKA The Hostiles), is everyone that works in the DI deserving of death? eventhose who don't know what the DI was doing? And by seeing Ben's dad, we know not everyone was in the know. We also know that scientists and researchers were constantly lied to in the DI (refer to the Pearl, where they thought they were watching people push a useless button).

Sorry, but no. That's like saying you have to kill all the civilians in a country you are at war with. The civilians are not all guilty of their country's actions. Just as not everyone in the DI was guilty of whatever nefarious activities were being done (if any).

I could liken the Losties experience with The Others to a dog's experience at the vet. From the dog's view, most of what's being done is torture. Without a knowledge of medicine, they can't view the actions taken against them as anything but evil. But we as their masters know that all those painful things that are being done are actually to help them.

Are you seriously comparing human beings to dogs? I'm sorry but that's just so wrong. The Losties are PEOPLE, they undestand logical arguments and they might even understand complex concepts if they are layed out in layman's terms.

For me, what it boils down to is: does the end justify the means? and my personal answer to that in NO, it doesn't. I don't care how altruistic a purpose the Others have, I don't care if they are saving the world from destruction, none of those reasons guarant kidnapping people in the middle of the night, infiltrating a group of perfectly innocent survivors, ordering the death of some of them, etc. Whatever their purpose is, there are countless other ways to accomplish it without torturing a group of guys who just happened to crash, through no fault of their own on a horrible place.

Not to mention that everyone keeps forgetting Richard's line about Ben's side projects. It is clear that Ben is not doing what the island wants and that he is off into his own little power trip. He's been corrupted by power and he's abusing it. Ben is not working on the important issues (which I presume are the altruistic ones the writters keep referring to). Otherwise, Richard would not have said those words or given Locke Sawyer's file so that he could coerce Sawyer into killing Cooper.

Then why take him to the pit of bodies? Ben was just angry and jealous that Jacob actually communicated with Locke and saw him as a threat to his leadership. If he had just wanted to bring Locke to the brink of death, there are better ways to do it. He left him alive because he knew that lying in a pit waiting to die where no one could find you would be a horrible way to go. He shot him out of jealousy, but he shot him in the manner that he did out of malice. I don't think he really expected the island/Walt to help him.

Totally agree.

You just don't gas an entire community with the innocent and the guilty alike. Ben's father was mean, and a terrible man, but he was just a lackey for Dharma, he wasn't involved in any of th eexperiments the DI was performing, he was just a janitor, doing his job. Did he desrve to die? I don't think so.



I thought I read somewhere that the Hostiles didn't gas Dharma, but it was an island-wide phenomenon. They hadn't filmed Roger's death as Ben explicitly killing him with a gas canister, just putting on a gas mask as he watched his father die. Not that makes it any less of a murder. I think the concept of an island-wide gassing as a phenomenon of the island to be quite compelling.

I thought I read somewhere that the Hostiles didn't gas Dharma, but it was an island-wide phenomenon. They hadn't filmed Roger's death as Ben explicitly killing him with a gas canister, just putting on a gas mask as he watched his father die. Not that makes it any less of a murder. I think the concept of an island-wide gassing as a phenomenon of the island to be quite compelling.

I think the quote was from an ME interview. I believe ME said the Hostiles did gas the island and the plan was that Ben would look at his watch and get his mask on, but then they added the canister part. ME was shocked that Ben could be so callous.

But, however it went down, the Hostiles knew the gassing would come, and they knew the precise time (they had masks and a scheduled time), yet, they didn't warn the innocent among the DI, that's just so wrong in so many levels.....

sandiego, before correcting me, please read my post I said:



Ben joined, by choice, the group that Richard belonged to. This group was called the Hostiles by the DI. I never said Ben joined the DI and I never said he was on the island voluntarily.



He couldn't wait to join Richard's group. He did have a choice, and he clearly chose to stay with the Hostiles and help them, but he had to be told, by Richard to be patient. Doesn't get any choicier than that.



I don't care what DHarma was up to or why the Hostiles wanted them gone. You just don't gas an entire community with the innocent and the guilty alike. Ben's father was mean, and a terrible man, but he was just a lackey for Dharma, he wasn't involved in any of th eexperiments the DI was performing, he was just a janitor, doing his job. Did he desrve to die? I don't think so.

For the sake of argument let's assume that the DI was evil and they were destroying the island and killing the natives (AKA The Hostiles), is everyone that works in the DI deserving of death? eventhose who don't know what the DI was doing? And by seeing Ben's dad, we know not everyone was in the know. We also know that scientists and researchers were constantly lied to in the DI (refer to the Pearl, where they thought they were watching people push a useless button).

Sorry, but no. That's like saying you have to kill all the civilians in a country you are at war with. The civilians are not all guilty of their country's actions. Just as not everyone in the DI was guilty of whatever nefarious activities were being done (if any).



Are you seriously comparing human beings to dogs? I'm sorry but that's just so wrong. The Losties are PEOPLE, they undestand logical arguments and they might even understand complex concepts if they are layed out in layman's terms.

For me, what it boils down to is: does the end justify the means? and my personal answer to that in NO, it doesn't. I don't care how altruistic a purpose the Others have, I don't care if they are saving the world from destruction, none of those reasons guarant kidnapping people in the middle of the night, infiltrating a group of perfectly innocent survivors, ordering the death of some of them, etc. Whatever their purpose is, there are countless other ways to accomplish it without torturing a group of guys who just happened to crash, through no fault of their own on a horrible place.

Not to mention that everyone keeps forgetting Richard's line about Ben's side projects. It is clear that Ben is not doing what the island wants and that he is off into his own little power trip. He's been corrupted by power and he's abusing it. Ben is not working on the important issues (which I presume are the altruistic ones the writters keep referring to). Otherwise, Richard would not have said those words or given Locke Sawyer's file so that he could coerce Sawyer into killing Cooper.



Totally agree.


Sorry, CL, I did misread your post. My mistake and I'm sorry.

I still think my point is valid. And I'm not saying that Ben or The Others are "good", only that we have a very small piece of the picture here, and as with the Losties, I'm interested in analyzing their actions not only in the simple context of right versus wrong, but also from a broader perspective that takes into account what led them to these decisions, what kind of impact their decisions have on the broader population, etc. For me, judging the actions of the characters is just not that interesting. Understanding their actions is what challenges me to think about my own actions and ideas, which I feel is the best part of Lost.

And by the way, I have a very high opinion of dogs, so I meant that analogy as no disrespect to humans. The point of it was we can't always recognize that pain is sometimes what we need to improve ourselves.

Perhaps my point is better illustrated this way, and trust me, I'm not asking you agree with my perspective, only to respect it, because I think it is something the writers are trying to get us to think about:

From Through the Looking Glass, when the White Queen explains to Alice the "effect" of living backwards.


White Queen: "There's one great advantage in it, that one's memory works both ways . . . For instance, there's the King's messenger. He's in prison now, being punished: and the trial doesn't even begin till next Wednesday: and of course the crime comes last of all."
Alice: "Suppose he never commits the crime?
White Queen: "That would be all the better."
Alice: "Of course it would be better, but it wouldn't be at all better his being punished."
White Queen: You're wrong there, at any rate,were you ever punished?"
Alice: "Only for faults."
White Queen: "And you were all the better for it, I know!"

I'm confused. Whose life did Jack take and didn't Locke and Sayid trick Jack into locking Ben in the armory so Sayid could torture him and then Jack threatened Locke's button to force him to open the door so he could stop Sayid?

After they discovered Henry was an Other Jack told Locke that Locke had been right and that he shouldn't have interfered. Jack was against torture when he thought Henry might have been a caste away himself but when they knew he was an Other then Jack agreed with Locke. He agreed (along with Locke and Sayid) that torture was an appropriate method to determine if someone belonged to a particular group. Jack thought it was alright to hold one member of a group responsible for the crimes of another member.

Remember first season when Jack had first agreed with Sayid about torture? That it was alright to use torture on Sawyer to get a beautiful blond her inhaler? Even though they had very little evidence Sawyer was guilty? Even though another woman had a remedy for the problem so it wasn't even needed? Jack brushed Sun aside when she tried to explain that she had a remedy for Shannon. Jack wouldn't listen to her because how could anyone other than himself have an answer? He knew everything. If Sun had been a tall blond, he would have given her the few minutes it would have taken to understand what she was saying. The whole episode was totally unnecessary. Shannon didn't need the inhaler and Sawyer didn't have it.

I kind of took Jack's withholding medical treatment or using it as a bargaining tool as a survival strategy more than his hatred of Ben or the Others. His medical skills were pretty much all he had to hold over their heads, believing that once he became useless to them they would kill him.

What did Jack have to lose by helping him? He believed he was dead either way so at least why not help? He took an oath as a doctor and I think he violated that oath.

He put everything he had into trying to save Colleen and she was an Other so I don't think he really picks and chooses who he'll try to save based on whether or not they are one of his people. I think the guy is just doing his best to survive and make sure those around him survive.

Colleen is an excellent example of his picking and choosing. Why operate on Colleen and not Ben? I think he operated on Colleen because another beautiful blond (Juliet) was in need of his help and Jack, who loves to rescue damsels in distress, did so once again.

Jack is the hero of the story but he is a very flawed hero. The writers have managed to make us sympathize with a group of people with very questionable morals. It's one of the reasons I like sci fi so much.