Charlie is " . . . dead, but also here" [Archive] - { Flicks N Shows | Fringe Division

jennylee27

01-31-2008, 11:51 PM

Dave slapped Hurley too, but I think they had that other patient see Charlie to prove he wasn't a "Dave". I think he's very real, but a ghost and I don't get how. I'm just hoping he starts appearing to all of the O6 and tells them all to go back. I want more scenes like that. Charlie and Hurley were great in that scene. More Charlie please.
I would love it if that happened. He can be their voice of conscience, you know, sitting on their shoulders and whispering in their ears to go back. :)

BTW, to whomever asked, I don't think Dom was in the credits, although he was in the press release. Interesting that they tried to hide his appearance at the last second, although they fully credited John Terry.

GettinLost

01-31-2008, 11:53 PM

I almost wondered if the "dead but I'm here" meant, "yes, I'm officially dead because TPTB have erased me from the world but - I'm here because I really am alive". And it was strange that the other patient could see Charlie.

I'm wondering if it was very similar to Desmond and the Mrs...ARGH...the lady he met in the jewelry store he tried to buy the ring from.

loraho

02-01-2008, 12:12 AM

Didn't Carlton and/or Damon say in a podcast that when a character is "dead" he/she's really dead and won't be seen again unless it's in a flashback?

srp

02-01-2008, 12:16 AM

After seeing Charlie with Hurley tonight, it occurred to me that Charlie might have pulled off the same "stunt" (for lack of a better term) that Desmond did last season: He travelled back in a time stream the way Desmond after the hatch explosion. Desmond was able to interact with people when he did it. Why not Charlie?

I suspect that Christian Shephard did the same thing in Season One when Jack saw him. Maybe Yemi too.

Steve
http://www.magiclamp.org/

Lost_in_DeLandFla

02-01-2008, 12:18 AM

Seems that Charlie is a kind of manifestation of the island to me...as Hurley says, The island wants us back, Maybe since people have left the island, the island, or it's power, or smokie--wants them back. As far as we know people have never left the island before --well, except Richard Alpert.....

CrimsonRabbit

02-01-2008, 12:19 AM

If Dave, Yemi and Christian were the Monster.... was Charlie here? Has the Monster left the Island?

lostgurl

02-01-2008, 12:34 AM

Probably my favorite part of the whole episode. I don't want Charlie to be gone, so I really hope he's not dead somehow, or not dead like the way death is usually. :blink:

Huh? What did I just say?

Bella

02-01-2008, 12:36 AM

He was definitely there in some form because the other patient saw him. But how? All I know is that I was THRILLED to see Charlie, and gasped so loud that I'm pretty sure I inhaled all the oxygen in the room.

lostorfound

02-01-2008, 12:46 AM

Charlie is " . . . dead, but also here". Like Dave?

Christian Shepherd is "...dead, but also here." Like Charlie?

Maybe that helps explain Jack's hospital rant in TTLG???????

Andromeda Irulan

02-01-2008, 12:49 AM

AWWWW Pacejunkie I felt sooo bad for you this ep! I'm glad you came back, though. Okay, back on topic, that line immediately triggered a parallel in my mind between it and the status of the losties on the island. They're dead in the real world, because (at least according to Naomi) the plane's been found. BUT - they're alive on the island.

Just what occurred to me at the time...

darwatcher

02-01-2008, 12:51 AM

TPTB have stated that Charlie is dead.

Selene1212

02-01-2008, 12:53 AM

This will teach me not to read everything before starting a new thread... :redface:

PS Welcome back Pacejunkie! :love:

ryan0905

02-01-2008, 12:53 AM

Donatien

02-01-2008, 12:54 AM

TPTB have stated that Charlie is dead.

Charlie even stated that Charlie was dead in this episode. :biggrin:

silveranswer

02-01-2008, 12:56 AM

Dave was apparently a figment of Hurley's mind- and yet he was able to slap Hurley- as was Charlie. Could Dave have been one of the people killed in the deck accident? I was surprised that they included that event in the recap ep.

Pinjo

02-01-2008, 01:01 AM

Wasn't there some complex theory about two Charlies? Something about how when Desmond went back in turning the failsafe key, his interaction led to Charlie not getting on the plane, hence creating a paradox of two Charlies, leading to the universe coarse correcting by killing off island!Charlie and leaving a Charlie off the island? I kepe thinking about the infamous season one Lindelof quote that Dominic would "always have a job" as long as Lost was on the air.
Maybe this second Charlie was 'real' to Hurley in the store.

Canand Cantdo

02-01-2008, 01:01 AM

Okay, I definitely need to talk about this. Lemme get this straight. Whether it's the smoke monster or not, something on the island makes things like Yemi or Kate's Horse or Christian Shephard or Dave appear to the characters on the island. And even Ben's mom. And they even have the ability to speak to the characters... even when Ben didn't even know his mom. So if Hurley was on the island when he saw Charlie I wouldn't be too fussed. Except Hurley's a special case, because he saw Dave off the island too, because Dave was imaginary. Basically, Hurley seeing Charlie is a special phenomenon unlike anything we've seen before. It has to be different, because Hurley's not on the Island so I tend to think that the smoke monster (or whatever makes people appear to the Losties on the island) wouldn't be making house calls in LA (doesn't it have an island to terrorize? It is, after all, a 'security system' for the ISLAND). And Charlie's not imaginary like Dave was, not because he slapped him but because the other patient saw him, too. So what can we assume? Do we assume that this is an afterlife experience? That Charlie is contacting Hurley from beyond the grave? Is this a real ghost visitation? We have no clue what secret the Oceanic Six are apparantly hiding, something about other people (survivors, Losties?) being alive, and Jack was worried that Hurley would give it away so much so that he had to come and visit him and make sure he wouldn't, but Charlie wants him to help them... and he's coming back from the dead to appear to Hurley and convince him to help them.

So... I don't get it. I'd like to think as it was just stated here that Charlie is on the island's agenda, but I don't know if I'd like to make the reach to think that Smokie or whatever appears to people on the island is able to manifest visions off the island, too. I want to count this encounter as a real afterlife experience which does make it unique to the show, and I REALLY want to because it is OFF the island that I'm so confused, but enthralled, as to what is actually making Charlie appear. GAAAH....

That said, I'll mimic what everyone else said now. It's great to see Charlie =D. My girlfriend hated having to watch him die a second time (in "Past, Present, Future") and lucky for her she missed the encore presentation last night on ABC or she'd've seen it thrice. =D

What do you guys think? Does Smokie travel Oceanic, too?

ryan0905

02-01-2008, 01:04 AM

rabidranger

02-01-2008, 01:07 AM

I'm starting to think that Cerberus, Smokey, whatever has somehow been able to reach into the outside world. Charlie's apperance to Hurley reminded me a lot of Walt's appearance to Locke.

Andromeda Irulan

02-01-2008, 01:09 AM

Pinjo, me likey.

Canand Cantdo

02-01-2008, 01:12 AM

Christian Shepherd is "...dead, but also here." Like Charlie?

Maybe that helps explain Jack's hospital rant in TTLG???????

I'm pretty certain that Christian Shephard is dead - of course it doesn't explain what he's doing in Jacob's cabin - but I mean when Jack says that in TTLG. When he tells the doctor to "get his father down here" he says "and if he's drunker than me you can fire me." This is simply Jack, falling apart, making a reference to the fact that his father was an alcoholic. His dad doesn't need to be alive for him to say those things and I am strongly against the idea that Christian is alive off the island in the future. Plus, let's not forget, he lost his license for drinking and that's what caused him to go to Australia in the first place, Jack to follow. He would never be back at work at St Sebastian's... although it's disturbingly apparent that Jack is forging his father's signature and writing fake prescriptions for his pills which he is addicted - in addition to alcohol which we saw him pouring into his orange juice in the beginning of this episode! (SIGH!)

Sorry, mods, I'm BACK on topic.

Wasn't there some complex theory about two Charlies? Something about how when Desmond went back in turning the failsafe key, his interaction led to Charlie not getting on the plane, hence creating a paradox of two Charlies, leading to the universe coarse correcting by killing off island!Charlie and leaving a Charlie off the island? I kepe thinking about the infamous season one Lindelof quote that Dominic would "always have a job" as long as Lost was on the air.
Maybe this second Charlie was 'real' to Hurley in the store.

I loved when Damon said that but I think you're reading too much into it. As a long-time fan of the X-Files and this show as well, I think what the Producers meant was very apparent anyway. Just like Ian Somerhalder shows up as a guest star and appears in other characters flashbacks or as visions to them on the island, Charlie can do that. I thought that in this premiere episode Charlie would be appearing to Claire to give her the comfort she needs to raise Aaron on her own (or with the help of Hurley who I predict will be helping...) I still want him to, but when he does, I think that will probably be Smokie. Let's just hope Smokie is in the consoling mood. Or whatever makes characters appear to the losties.

Anyway Dominic 'always having a job on the show' simply means they'll use him whenever they need him to appear. He'll get the Boone treatment of having the ability to appear on the island because, even though you die, it doesn't mean you have to be gone.

I love this show!

Michelle Friday

02-01-2008, 01:20 AM

Did any one get a close up of what Charlie has in his hand?

And didn' Dom look great!!:wub:

pacejunkie

02-01-2008, 01:22 AM

BTW, to whomever asked, I don't think Dom was in the credits, although he was in the press release. Interesting that they tried to hide his appearance at the last second, although they fully credited John Terry.

Dom was in the opening credits tonight jenny. He was listed along with the main cast actually which must have just been a contractual thing.

Does anyone remember when Dominic was passing out something at some event and there were some theories about him coming back? Can anyone find that info?

Yes, he was at the Londond Film and ComicCon in September and he passed out stickers that said "I Was Here Moments Ago". They were identical to the sticker that was on his guitar in the GH flashback (DarkUFO has the cap). When asked about the stickers, he said we would learn the meaning of them this time next year (meaning September? I took it to mean there would be some Charlie reveal in season five).

http://bp3.blogger.com/_8HhjIy50yEY/R6KjUaLiPJI/AAAAAAAAAQ0/sLKVuW3imBc/s1600-h/charlie.png

What's in his hand?

Nothing. That's the inside of his sleeve.

Wasn't there some complex theory about two Charlies? Something about how when Desmond went back in turning the failsafe key, his interaction led to Charlie not getting on the plane, hence creating a paradox of two Charlies, leading to the universe coarse correcting by killing off island!Charlie and leaving a Charlie off the island? I kepe thinking about the infamous season one Lindelof quote that Dominic would "always have a job" as long as Lost was on the air.
Maybe this second Charlie was 'real' to Hurley in the store.

Yes Pinjo and thank you for bringing it up. You're of course referring to the paradox theory. According to Damon (from the FBYE Lost on Location feature):

"One would argue, the first time that series of events happened, Desmond probably never approached Charlie, didn't even recognize him, he just walked out of Widmore's office and kind of kept on going. So there the paradox effect takes place and you wonder did Desmond change anything when he was back there?"

So in a nutshell, when Desmond spoke to Charlie on the street, might he have created two Charlies -- one that never got on the plane and one that was already on the island in the future? That's why Desmond had flashes only of Charlie's death, because the universe had to course correct and eliminate the extra Charlie.

Now, every other time a vision has appeared to someone, they were either wearing the clothes they died in or looked as the person remembered them. Charlie was neither. He had a haircut, different clothes, a jacket for the weather (!) and NO SCARS. He looked as if he had never been on the island. This is not the Charlie that Hurley knew, but the question is, is he an island trick or is he the other Charlie that Desmond created. Now of course that other Charlie wouldn't have island Charlie's memories (Or would he?) so that doesn't answer why Charlie knew Hurley so this is all one big puzzle right now. Is he just a simple ghost?

Now at the end Hurley told Jack that "it" wants us to go back. So does Hurley think Charlie is the island luring them back? Jack seemed to know exactly what he was talking about so has Jack been visited by Charlie too or is Jack being visited by his father? Is Sayid being visited by Shannon? Locke was visited by Boone. Get it? They may be "haunted" by all the dead, not just Charlie.

And might I just add that Dom looked absolutely fabulous? :)

lostmio

02-01-2008, 01:23 AM

Christian Shepherd is "...dead, but also here." Like Charlie?

Maybe that helps explain Jack's hospital rant in TTLG???????

Yeah, I got that out of it, too.
Jack's downward spiral and obsession with going back will be triggered by Christian apparitions. Hurley will soon be wanting to go back, too.

Kate: no apparitions as of the TTLG flashforwards, but sooner or later somebody who's dead-but-not will come to her. Who will she see? The marshall or someone we haven't yet seen die?

Canand Cantdo

02-01-2008, 01:24 AM

Did any one get a close up of what Charlie has in his hand?

And didn' Dom look great!!:wub:

in his hand? Lostpedia.com has a great screencap of what he has on his hand when he breaks the glass in the interrogation room:

http://www.lostpedia.com/wiki/Image:THEY_NEED_YOU.jpg

It's pretty neat.

But yeah... I don't know, what Charlie was saying if that was a clue, when he said "I'm dead, but I'm here..."

lockesmithe

02-01-2008, 01:32 AM

Pace, I read with great interest your post, only to be disappointed that you couldn't tell us definitively what Charlie's appearance was all about. ;)

However, your post was insightful and boiled down the possibilities nicely.

Now get crackin on the answer....

Enter Seventy Seven

02-01-2008, 01:36 AM

Canand Cantdo

02-01-2008, 01:43 AM

pacejunkie

02-01-2008, 01:45 AM

I think Charlie in this episode, Walt in TTLG, and Christian in "So It Begins", are all smokey/Jacob. And I also believe the "they" in they need you refers to Locke and the other survivors who stayed on the island. People are trying to find the island, and it's under attack perhaps, and Jacob, via Charlie, is trying to get Hurley at least to help them... hence why he thinks they should go back. I also think the "he" Hurley refers to at the end with Jack ("I think he wants us to come back") is Jacob or Locke.

He actually says "it" and not "he" which says to me that Hurley believes it's the island playing tricks on them, trying to lure them back using various apparitions. I'm convinced Jack is seeing Christian which explains his references to his father in TTLG and that its making him crazy like Hurley.

Pace, I read with great interest your post, only to be disappointed that you couldn't tell us definitively what Charlie's appearance was all about. ;)

However, your post was insightful and boiled down the possibilities nicely.

Now get crackin on the answer....

LOL! I'm working on it. But in the meantime, did you get the part about Charlie being a total bloody rock god? *swoon* :biggrin:

Guinevere

02-01-2008, 01:48 AM

Canand Cantdo

02-01-2008, 01:50 AM

rabidranger

02-01-2008, 01:51 AM

Lost_in_DeLandFla

02-01-2008, 01:51 AM

Now, every other time a vision has appeared to someone, they were either wearing the clothes they died in or looked as the person remembered them. Charlie was neither. He had a haircut, different clothes, a jacket for the weather (!) and NO SCARS. He looked as if he had never been on the island. This is not the Charlie that Hurley knew, but the question is, is he an island trick or is he the other Charlie that Desmond created. Now of course that other Charlie wouldn't have island Charlie's memories (Or would he?) so that doesn't answer why Charlie knew Hurley so this is all one big puzzle right now. Is he just a simple ghost?

Fabulous Pace. I realized that Charlie looked different, but I thougth it ws just the hair, didn't put the lack of scars into place!

Canand Cantdo

02-01-2008, 01:54 AM

Rabid, what's your source for that? It doesn't seem to me that apparitions on the island whether or not the person's dead have to be considered 'ghosts' anyway... aren't they just Smokey?

rabidranger

02-01-2008, 01:56 AM

Rabid, what's your source for that? It doesn't seem to me that apparitions on the island whether or not the person's dead have to be considered 'ghosts' anyway... aren't they just Smokey?

Dark UFO and the Lost Forum both had extensive spoilers of the first two eps. I was referencing the second ep.

Canand Cantdo

02-01-2008, 01:58 AM

Dark UFO and the Lost Forum both had extensive spoilers of the first two eps. I was referencing the second ep.

Thanks! That's.... really weird.

klalkis

02-01-2008, 02:15 AM

What's in his hand?

Its the inside of his coat sleeve.

Guinevere

02-01-2008, 03:17 AM

It could very well be Charlie's spirit:

Spoilers indicate that one of the Freighties that arrives on the Island (Miles) can communicate (via advanced technology) with the "ghosts" or "spirits" of dead people. What if people like Hurley can do this naturally?

You may be on to something, Fierro. After all, Hurley did see Christian in the cabin and the EYE. Both things we've been lead to believe that only "special" people can see. Maybe the Island has helped Hurley tap into that part of himself that he didn't even know he had.

What Would Jeff Do

02-01-2008, 03:24 AM

Didn't Carlton and/or Damon say in a podcast that when a character is "dead" he/she's really dead and won't be seen again unless it's in a flashback?

My interpretation was that dead meant really dead, but they may appear in visions/dreams as well as flashbacks, like Boone's appearance in Further Instructions.

awesomecoolderek

02-01-2008, 03:39 AM

I thought it was Charlie's spirit. I know that seems hokey but I believe that Charlie's been trying to tell Hurley something that Hurley doesn't want to hear (obviously). He didn't make him up and I really don't believe that Smokey has power off the Island. One of the other patients saw him as well. Just because someone's crazy doesn't mean they aren't right, you know. He's some kind of spirit. I'm just not sure what. :shrug:
Yeah. There was something about "Charlie" in tonight's episode that was very different from "Dave" in Hurley's past episodes - and not just the fact that another person saw him (which was clearly a clue from the writers). It has more to do with what Charlie was saying (he answered Hurley's questions, and answered them accurately) and why Charlie was there.

So.

It's not "Smokey". (I'm getting so tired of hearing that one...)

It's not another figment of Hurley's imagination.

It's Charlie - who is "dead, but also here."

Something "happened" to Charlie when he sacrificed himself, and we'll be seeing more of him I'm sure.

MegletTX

02-01-2008, 04:32 AM

I'M JUST SO FREAKING HAPPY TO SEE CHARLIE!!!!!!!!!!! :biggrin:

middlenamewayne

02-01-2008, 08:02 AM

It may help to think of what WASN'T said:

Not "Charlie is dead but I am here."

Not "I was dead, but I am here,"

Not "I am dead, but I am ALSO here."

Assuming that whoever we are seeing is not lying, every word in the sentence tells something very specific, and also excludes other ideas of what's up with Charlie.

Can't go deeper - gotta catch a few winks.

- mnw

pacejunkie

02-01-2008, 08:09 AM

Quote from Dom about the new Charlie (from Kristin): (http://www.eonline.com/gossip/kristin/detail/index.jsp?uuid=b08619ec-e0b4-4473-be06-60fc916efd23&sid=fd-kristin)

Death Becomes Charlie: How freaking awesome was Dominic Monaghan's surprise return and that scene with Hurley? Charlie looked so hot and confident and cool—like a bona fide rock star!—that I had to text some love to Dom and tell him so. He shot back: "Sooo glad you liked the NEW Charlie." He said when he decided to return he knew "It must be a revolutionised Charles." Smart man! The new Charlie rocks.

Sounds like Dom wanted Charlie to come back rock star fabulous.

theaznshadow

02-01-2008, 08:45 AM

Dead but also here. This is probably the lie Jack refers to in last year’s finale. If that fits then one shouldn’t be surprised to see Charlie appear in future episodes chatting up the now 4 remaining O6 crew in this apparent "real world”. This could also explain why Kate wasn’t being chased, etc.

My question is where is this “here”? When? The more I watch this show the more I am convinced that its headed for a alternate time/alternate reality direction. So confused right now.

unhans

02-01-2008, 09:02 AM

"He was definitely there in some form because the other patient saw him."

It came from a crazy person.. He could be in Hugo's head for all we know. I think we're going to hear more from him though..

cinamin

02-01-2008, 09:03 AM

Call me sentimental, but for now I'd just like to think of Charlie as Hurley's guardian angel, a personal course corrector, and he's just looking out for his best buddy. Seems like a good idea to go back after seeing Jack and now Hurley deteriorate off-island. I get the feeling they had to make a deal with the devil to get off the island and now they're paying for it. But then again, why did Hurley regret his choice to go with Locke and not Jack?

Lots of puzzle pieces missing from the magic box yet. But so much fun to look forward to in finding them!

Chrysander

02-01-2008, 09:14 AM

Southern Belle

02-01-2008, 09:17 AM

I was so delighted to see Charlie again....and he looked so awesome!!

At least the question of 'What did Hurley see in the convenience store that scared him into a car chase with the cops...." was answered.

I don't think it has anything to do with Hurley being crazy, Charlie came back to communicate with Hurley the need to go back to the island. I loved when he slapped Hurley to let him know he was really there.

Is he a ghost or a spirit? I don't know the answer to that, but I'm sure time will tell.

Who knows, Charlie may show up speaking with Jack or one of the others.

Good Twin

02-01-2008, 09:23 AM

pacejunkie

02-01-2008, 09:27 AM

Check out the new video podcast with a behind the scenes look at how they filmed the Charlie underwater scene. (It was a stunt double, though it looked just like him). Interesting that at least for this Charlie, Jean Higgins calls him a ghost:

WATCH (http://darkufo.blogspot.com/2008/02/video-podcast-behind-scenes-of-episode.html)

Marcus Antonius

02-01-2008, 10:53 AM

srp

02-01-2008, 10:53 AM

Yes, Charlie's dead. So is Christian. TPTB also said that Christian was "dead", but not in the sense we think of "dead". Then there's that little matter of the Verizon webisode that showed Christian talking to Vincent, telling him to "go find my son, he has work to do". How's hallucination is that? Vincent's? http://spoilerslost.blogspot.com/2008/01/lost-mobisode-13-so-it-begins.html

Please follow my theory on this...

We already know that time travel is involved in the story line, and we know that people that are experiencing this can interact with people in the time line they're visiting. We've seen it. Desmond did it, and talked to Ms. Hawking in the antique shop. Desmond even interacted with Charlie in the past (on the street while he was playing his guitar, before the plane crash).

If Desmond can travel back in time, why couldn't Charlie travel forward in time... a time in which he was dead?

Say that Desmond realized that everything that was happening right now (the show we just saw, and those to shortly follow) was going completely wrong, and things "aren't supposed to happen this way" as Locke would say. People got off the island that weren't "supposed" to. What would Desmond do?

If Desmond was able to travel back again, this time to the island after the crash, and talk to Charlie, don't you think that Charlie would be willing to talk to Hugo to give him that message?

Since Hugo saw people that didn't exist before, his natural reaction to seeing Charlie would be to completely freak out. I think that's exactly what the writer's would want us to believe.

The thing that stands out to me is that the other patient at the hospital saw Charlie, and told Hugo about it.

I don't know how Charlie did it. Maybe Desmond went back dragged him into the hatch, or there's some other way to do it. But if a rabbit could do it to Dr. Candle (or whatever name he was using in that video we saw over the long break), I think Charlie could too.

wray

02-01-2008, 11:03 AM

pacejunkie

02-01-2008, 11:18 AM

I like your idea. It goes with the idea that the Looking Glass station is a portal and with the Orchid film that suggests that time/space travel is possible on the island, explaining the multiple rabbits that appear (two of the same rabbit actually). By "I'm dead, but I'm also here" that could imply that in the past and on the island, Charlie is dead, but in the future or where ever he travels to, Charlie can be as real as anybody. I actually prefer a time traveling Charlie to a dead ghost Charlie. It gives him a lot more control over his own destiny and choices of where and when to appear, and he doesn't just appear on the whim of others.

I hope you're right, it would support related theories and is a good balance between a living and dead Charlie.

ETA: I've been thinking about this more and I really think you're on to something. I'm thinking this will turn to out to have more to do with time travel and time shifting than ghosts. Consider:

1) Klugh asking Michael if Walt has ever appeared somewhere he wasn't supposed to be. Walt popped up all over the island yet we know he was alive. He couldn't have been a ghost.
2) The rabbit in the Orchid film suddenly appearing again, mistakenly too close to its other self, along with the reference to the Casimir effect which makes time/space travel possible.
3) The fact that everyone sees these things, not just the people they appear to.
4) Desmond's time travel, a huge clue
5) Charlie's clue on his guitar "I Was Here Moments Ago"
6) Jacob's shack appearing and disappearing in a different place.

Think about that last one. Jacob's shack didn't just disappear when Hurley counted, it reappeared in another place entirely and then disappeared again. I think the shack itself is caught in this space/time rift and actually moves all around the island. It is an object, so it can't be "dead". It's not a ghost, it is time shifting.

This would mean that Charlie is time shifting as well, and would explain his change of hair and clothes. He can go back, forward, hang out in another place, just like Desmond did. He is dead, but only on the island.

Could flight 815 had time shifted as well, landing relatively safely on the island and insuring survivors? Christian could have passed through that time shift on the way down and voila he's alive.

BLUEFROGBOOGIE

02-01-2008, 11:34 AM

pacejunkie

02-01-2008, 11:49 AM

I think the key to someone else seeing Charlie is the fact that the other dude saw Charlie first. and pointed it out to Hurley.

I don't think Charlie is a ghost. Since when do ghosts get haircuts and change their clothes?

I think he may be popping in and out of time.

I agree with you. Charlie is time shifting, just like Desmond did. Check out this thread where it is being discussed (maybe they should be merged): http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=87160

Jacob's shack is time shifting too, popping up in different places all over the island, which is why it didn't just disappear, but Hurley saw it in one place and then another. Charlie is dead on the island, but he is shifting through time and space, appearing to Hurley very much alive just like Desmond when he traveled back in time. And remember Walt popping up everywhere even though we know Walt is alive? Walt couldn't have been a ghost and yet he travelled the same way.

srp

02-01-2008, 12:51 PM

I was thinking about this a bit more and realized that all this time bopping around might have bigger significance:

Here we have an island that's been around a long, long time. People find the island ever so often. The people that already live there either stay hidden, or grab people to be part of the bigger group because they're good candidates. (But candidates for what? More on that later.)

In more modern times, the island is discovered, but this time by someone that thinks they can exploit whatever power the island has to their own benefit. They set up shop. They start experiments in magnetism, screw around with time to see if they can control it.

Meanwhile, the original inhabitants stay hidden. They stay hidden until they find a kid (Ben) on the island that's receptive to what the island is really all about, and one of them (Richard) goes to talk to him. They bide their time until Ben gets older.

They hatch (ha...excuse the pun) a plan: They want to make sure that no one ever accidently runs across the island again. The problem? They women there can't have children, and they need to figure out why this is happening. If they figure that out, they're good to go. The island can stay hidden.

So what are they hiding? The very thing the researchers (and really, their backers) are trying to exploit: time travel.

In The Original Others hands, everything is fine. They can help steer the time line the way they always have. The were able to bring in "good candidates" to help them. People with abilities like Walt's are "special", because they're already to the point where they can be trained to control what The Original Others already know how to do.

In the hands of the researchers and industrialists, time travel technology wouldn't just be bad, it would be disastrous.

And that's why Ben is fighting tooth and nail to keep those newcomers off the island. They're the paramiltary group that the industrials have sent in, because they're not going down without a fight?

Who are those guys? Widmore probably... Mr. Paik maybe.

jennylee27

02-01-2008, 12:57 PM

All hail PJ, the resident Charlie expert. Seriously girl, I could have quoted 6 of your posts to respond to! Thanks for telling me Dom was in the main credit list. I missed that.
Check out the new video podcast with a behind the scenes look at how they filmed the Charlie underwater scene. (It was a stunt double, though it looked just like him). Interesting that at least for this Charlie, Jean Higgins calls him a ghost:

WATCH (http://darkufo.blogspot.com/2008/02/video-podcast-behind-scenes-of-episode.html)
I caught that too. That told me that "ghost" was surely the description used for Charlie in the script.

I agree with you. Charlie is time shifting, just like Desmond did. Check out this thread where it is being discussed (maybe they should be merged): http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=87160

Jacob's shack is time shifting too, popping up in different places all over the island, which is why it didn't just disappear, but Hurley saw it in one place and then another. Charlie is dead on the island, but he is shifting through time and space, appearing to Hurley very much alive just like Desmond when he traveled back in time. And remember Walt popping up everywhere even though we know Walt is alive? Walt couldn't have been a ghost and yet he travelled the same way.
Interesting theory, and I will check out that thread. The problem with creating any theory around Hurley's 3 visions (Dave, Charlie and the shack) is that Hurley is a highly unreliable witness. He could have just scared himself into hallucinating that the shack was moving.

It's really Charlie's appearance that is getting to me, and not just the hotness factor. Hurley ALWAYS saw Dave in the same outfit, the standard get-up of Santa Rosa. Yet he saw Charlie in the clothes he died in AND with the new look. That's so odd to me. I've always liked the two Charlies theory, even though it makes my brain explode, but the clothes are problematic there, aren't they? Unless one says that Charlie's whole life was changed by meeting Desmond, including his wardrobe choices. :biggrin:

pacejunkie

02-01-2008, 01:28 PM

Time shifting would also explain Richard and how he didn't seem to age.

JardinPrayer

02-01-2008, 01:31 PM

My 2 cents. 1: The producers have stated clearly that "when you're dead on the island, you're dead. 2: It has also been revealed that there will be elements of time shifting...that means alternate realities. 3: Jean clearly stated that Charlie is a "ghost," - at least in this scene.

I personally don't believe Smokie is operating off the island, but we have seen evidence that Others can and do, explaining Abaddon's visit. As for Charlie, I believe his "reality" changed several times because of Desmond's interventions, not just their encounter on the street but in the several times Des saved Charlie's life. He altered time for Charlie. That there may be more than one Charlie is possible, but the Charlie that visited Hurley last night was most assuredly aware that he is "dead."

I believe the Oceanic 6 are in an alternate PAST of their lives. Oceanic 815 clearly crashed and they clearly survived, but now they all know each other where they did not in the original reality. They are in their PAST, but a different version of it, I think. In that past, Charlie is not yet dead...possibly because he never got on the plane. Jack's father is also still alive because he has not yet died. The "6" are the only ones who know they are in an alternate timeline, and that is what Jack does not want Hurley to "tell."

That's how I'm thinkin' at the moment.

pacejunkie

02-01-2008, 01:33 PM

All hail PJ, the resident Charlie expert. Seriously girl, I could have quoted 6 of your posts to respond to! Thanks for telling me Dom was in the main credit list. I missed that.

:blush:

It's really Charlie's appearance that is getting to me, and not just the hotness factor. Hurley ALWAYS saw Dave in the same outfit, the standard get-up of Santa Rosa. Yet he saw Charlie in the clothes he died in AND with the new look. That's so odd to me. I've always liked the two Charlies theory, even though it makes my brain explode, but the clothes are problematic there, aren't they? Unless one says that Charlie's whole life was changed by meeting Desmond, including his wardrobe choices. :biggrin:

Well on the island he didn't have much wardrobe choice. :rolleyes:

But jenny, I started a general theory thread (http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=87275)for the idea that Charlie is not in fact a ghost, but is time travelling. There is much in support of it. I would love your opinion if you wouldn't mind stopping by. We can add to it with more evidence as it comes up through the season.

lostlocke

02-01-2008, 01:52 PM

Just happy to see Charlie...:biggrin:

I had two thoughts about this scene:

- Hurley's not crazy. Another patient saw Charlie (no one else ever saw Dave).

- Charlie is only there to see Hurley. I don't think he will appear to anyone else.

I just have one problem with that, what if the patient that also "saw" Charlie was a figment of Hurley's imagination too!! I agree about Charlie not appearing to anyone else though. I don't think anyone else will see him. Whatever happens and whatever it means, I'm just glad to see Charlie again.

Michelle67

02-01-2008, 02:04 PM

It has to be different, because Hurley's not on the Island so I tend to think that the smoke monster (or whatever makes people appear to the Losties on the island) wouldn't be making house calls in LA (doesn't it have an island to terrorize? It is, after all, a 'security system' for the ISLAND).

The problem with that is that being a security system it may not just keep things out but keep things in. If the Oceanic Six were supposed to remain on the island, tracking them down to bring them back could be a priority.

I would say that from the two flash forwards we've had from both Jack and Hurley that their experiences off island seem to be bringing them to a place where they realize it would have been better to not have left in the first place. Perhaps(my long shot for the day)
the whole off island experience has been manufactured by the island to convince them to stay and isn't really real. I mean if smokey can generate people why not whole environments.

No I'm not on the smokey boat -- just looking at possibilities.

Perhaps if the six returned to the island in the past(like Desmond's past experience with Penny) with the knowledge of what would happen if they left the island they could do things differently. Maybe they are being wooed back with a chance to make things right. And doing so might save everyone.

Now, every other time a vision has appeared to someone, they were either wearing the clothes they died in or looked as the person remembered them. Charlie was neither. He had a haircut, different clothes, a jacket for the weather (!) and NO SCARS. He looked as if he had never been on the island. This is not the Charlie that Hurley knew, but the question is, is he an island trick or is he the other Charlie that Desmond created. Now of course that other Charlie wouldn't have island Charlie's memories (Or would he?) so that doesn't answer why Charlie knew Hurley so this is all one big puzzle right now. Is he just a simple ghost?

Sounds like Dark Tower. Didn't the parallel characters in the series have some of the memories of their dead counterparts?

Personally I'd just like to pretend that when Charlie died he continued on in some way on the island and if Claire didn't make it - they are happily together. And maybe Claire is the one haunting Kate to return to the island --- " I want my baby back!':devil1: :devil1: :devil1:

Don't remember who said it, but someone said something about Hurley being able to see Jacob like Locke and Ben can. Perhaps that is the reason that Charlie came to Hurley. Ben and Locke may be dead and whoever is left on the island has no one that can communicate with Jacob for them. Just a thought.

eta - alternate reality theory. If you have these alternate realities bleeding over into one another -- maybe special people such as Hurley can see people from the other realities -- could explain how he could just turn Charlie off like that. Charlie didn't go anywhere -- Hurley just turned off his ability to see him.

rgreen517

02-01-2008, 02:17 PM

Well, another guy in the institution anyway.

Not necessarily. If you watch the scene again, you can see when the other mental patient points, and they show the direction that Charlie is in, there is someone in the distance at the same angle, that patient could have meant that person, but when Hurley looked, Charlie was there.

RVator

02-01-2008, 02:22 PM

Does there need to be two Charlies? Remember Charlie had no recollection of what happened during the hatch implosion. Is his appearance "him" during that time? Due to the effect of the EM pulse he was wandering through time and met people just like Desmond did. His amnesia whether his choice or not upon his rejoining the timeline? Desmond demonstrated very similar things. Charlie and Des are caught up in "many worlds" during the event of the hatch implosion. No need for two? Thoughts?

MegletTX

02-01-2008, 02:52 PM

dudes, it's so obvious. the form-fitting leather jacket, the close cropped hair, the cool sunglasses, the fact that he could dissapear at will. this is "future-chalie", all he needed was a full-body jump suit to seal the deal! seriously, though,i think somehow the events in the swan and the looking glass have detatched charlie from the normal constraints of space-time. i think he is now on par with mrs. hawking, and is jumping around in time trying to save the world from some imminent disaster.

although i have to say i love the idea tha Des and Charlie meeting off island caused that charlie not to get on the plane and therefore we have a duplicate charlie. but if that were the case, how would that charlie know about hurley and the island? and how would a "real" charlie have appeared in the glass at the police station to give hurley a message. future-charlie, dudes. future-charlie

I LOVE THIS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This is SO perfect, what if the Oceanic 6 are sitting on a secret that if they do X-Y-Z then they can reverse everything and save everyone on the island but doing so would expose the island to the world...so they have been sworn to secrecy or whatever. So future Charlie is begging Hurley to go back and fix it because if he doesn't, there IS no future Charlie...does that make sense???

The problem with that is that being a security system it may not just keep things out but keep things in. If the Oceanic Six were supposed to remain on the island, tracking them down to bring them back could be a priority.

That could make sense too! I would say they are very worried about what Hurley might tell, and I think they wanted to take Hurley away to some place where he could never tell anyone... :uhh:

pacejunkie

02-01-2008, 03:03 PM

Sounds like Dark Tower. Didn't the parallel characters in the series have some of the memories of their dead counterparts?

Great to see you Michelle! And speaking of the Dark Tower, since you bring it up *reaches into pocket*:

The Dark Tower parallels (compiled by Captain_Falafel):
Charlies character seems to be strongly influenced by the character of Eddie Dean from The Dark Tower series - both start off as heroin addicts who were drawn into drugs by their older brothers. Eddie has a mentor figure who gets them through withdrawal, he falls in love with a girl - then he gets killed. But at the end of the story his widow meets an alternative version of Eddie from another world.

Then there is the comparision between Charlie/Desmond and Jake Chambers/Roland. Jake is Rolands sidekick in Book 1. Roland is told by an Oracle that he must sacrifice Jake to progress to the next stage of his journey and speak to the man in black. Rolands quest for the Tower is his priority but he still tries to protect Jake against this prophecy. Jake knows he is fated to die, but sticks with Roland because he'll die anyway without his protection. In the end Roland reluctantly lets Jake die. He falls into a pool of water...and drowns.

However Jake only ended up in the Gunslinger world because he was murdered (shoved in front of a car) in the real world. Roland gets the chance to change Jakes original death and this results in a 'paradox' meaning Jake is alive and well again. Both he and Roland have half-memories of the original timeline. Jake continues to be a major character until the last book when he dies again, sacrificing his life willingly...though (once again) Jake is found to be alive, along with Eddie in an alternate reality.

Jake is a sweet 11 year old kid and King kills him 3 times. But he also resurrects him 3 times - firstly by a transition between worlds, second by a timeline paradox, third by an alternate reality. Good old King. And good possibilities for our Charlie, no? It seems both Jake and Eddie have already been such strong influences on his character/storyline.

Oh, one last thing...the Dark Tower series also uses 'portals' between worlds. ;)

sier

02-01-2008, 03:17 PM

Best thread of s04e01 so far.

PaceJunkie is really tearing it up with theories and that is *fantastic*. I am so glad to come on here and start thinking about this show again.

I can't say for certain if Charlie is simply a figment, a ghost (i hope not), or a future rendition. They are all plausible, but I sincerely hope its a Future version because that is a mind&*%# just waiting to happen.

GreatHeights

02-01-2008, 03:25 PM

pacejunkie

02-01-2008, 03:48 PM

I think its worth pointing out that of the three people to "visit" Hurley in the institution, Charlie is the only one not wearing a visitor badge. To me, that's an indication that he'd definately not "there" in the sense of still being alive in that reality.

Which sucks, cause I was pretty into the Desmond causing a time paradox/Two Charlies concept.

I wouldn't let that stop you, Charlie met Hurley outside on the grounds. I doubt he'd need a visitor badge to just walk up, the place doesn't look that high security and there was an open road behind him.

Of the many options, figment is the most disappointing (and least likely because the setup is there like that's what you're supposed to think), ghost is only slighter better but obvious and not very orginal storytelling, but future/paradox/time traveler is the most mindblowing and intriguing choice that would blow the shows mysteries wide open.

And a time traveler wouldn't need a visitor's badge either. ;)

jennylee27

02-01-2008, 03:56 PM

I really like the Dark Tower parallels. The question is how far Darlton would take their homage to one of their favorite writers, I suppose...

LostApril

02-02-2008, 03:12 AM

Didn't notice this before but my thought on this is:

If Hurley was seeing Charlie as a ghost or hallucination, why isn't Charlie wearing his DS ring? I mean besides Charlie wearing something I don't believe to have seen him wearing in other episodes, it seems if one was imagining a person being there, they would be wearing something specific to themselves. He is even wearing different shoes. (Ok, that reads like crap. Sorry.) Did Hurley notice Charlie's ring was gone when he got turned down to help them?

What I am getting at is when Hurley saw Dave, Dave was always wearing the same thing. Not the case with Charlie. So I figure based on that, Charlie can't be part of Hurley's imagination. That is just my thought.

BlackLotus

02-02-2008, 03:38 AM

charlie is the island reaching out to hurley. as he said - it wants them back.
as has been mentioned, christian probably starts doing the same to jack.

we've seen stuff like this happen on the island - now it goes a stage further.
given the events that ensured our losties were on 815 in the first place we shouldnt find it too hard to believe that the island can reach out beyond it's shores...

this me think of the black horse that saved kate from the marshal.

lowclass

02-02-2008, 03:51 AM

MonsterAteThePilot

02-02-2008, 03:52 AM

I don't know if it has been discussed yet or not but if the time traveling chalie theory is correct then he must have been the musician that programmed the beach boys code?

Guinevere

02-02-2008, 04:06 AM

This does seem to explain a lot, srp. I thought he was a spirit but this works just about as well. Do you think that Charlie made this trip when the hatch imploded? You know, he acted strangely and wasn't very forthcoming with Claire about what happened.

myothercarisflight815

02-02-2008, 04:17 AM

Time shifting would also explain Richard and how he didn't seem to age.

This does seem to explain a lot, srp. I thought he was a spirit but this works just about as well. Do you think that Charlie made this trip when the hatch imploded? You know, he acted strangely and wasn't very forthcoming with Claire about what happened.

I wonder if Mikail has knowledge of this as well. We saw him die.. but he keeps popping up all over the place.

moviephone

02-02-2008, 09:39 AM

Hurleys conversation with Charlie is the same as his conversations with Dave. Dave was a part of Hurleys subconcious. Dave was the part of Hurley that wanted to forget about what happened when he killed a person and to do that he ate.Charlie is the part of Hurley that wants to go back to the island because Hurley is feeling guilty about what happened ( leaving people behind ). Thats why Hurley could make Charlie vanish. And whatever guilt Hurley feels Jack is trying to hide at the moment but we all know what happens to Jack. You could just tell by the look on Jacks face when they were talking in the gym that Jack is one step away from the oxys.

LillyIsHot

02-02-2008, 10:33 AM

http://bp3.blogger.com/_RrObyQ3XzcY/R6Kp_8BEz9I/AAAAAAAASgY/uVrQnA77eos/s1600-h/charlies-hand.gif

CharliesHoodie

02-02-2008, 12:28 PM

Charlie is seen by another patient and Dave could not be seen by anyone. That's why they had to take the picture of Hurley and Dave together to prove to Hurley that Dave was not there.

BuffyMars

02-02-2008, 01:56 PM

Is it possible that the guy who saw Charlie was in Hurley's head, too? Or maybe Charlie was really Smokey, and other people can see it.

Jealous_Guy

02-02-2008, 01:58 PM

While we were chatting in Joshmeister's chat the other night, someone mentioned that maybe Smokey got on the freighter and off the island. I'm loving that :D

Ironflak

02-02-2008, 02:26 PM

xanthateto

02-02-2008, 02:39 PM

I for one would have liked if they would have omitted him from this episode.
I mean he just died one episode ago. Isn't it a bit soon.
Can't we have an ep without Charlie.

It was funny because right before this scene some one was said it would only be a matter of time before he was back.
I said that it was unlikely since flackbacks are gone and told them the only possibility was him showing up sometime as a hallucination.
5 seconds later there he is.
sheesh

I was under the impression that flashbacks are still around, it just varies between them and flashforwards between episodes.

I also get the feeling that Charlie's "ghost" was a manifestation of the Island (the monster?). Just like I think Vincent and Walt's appearance to Locke in the season 3 finale were. As Hurley said it wants them back.

Also I must say that I felt the line in the topic title (and its delivery) was incredibly cheesy and out-of-character for Charlie. I know he's dead and meant to be a bit mysterious now, but it still made me shudder.

Nobdy

02-02-2008, 03:14 PM

I think Hurley literally "created" Charlie. Hurley is special, and if you check my post on Hurley is special, you'll see why.

I'm thinking Hurley, like Jack later on, knows what he has to do, but Hurley has proven to not be very good at owning up to things in his life. He creates a real, physical Charlie to tell him what he needs to do (because of his guilt) and then wishes Charlie away. Charlie is there, and that's why he can be seen by the other patient as well.

GettinLost

02-02-2008, 04:03 PM

The patient that Hurley was playing Connect Four with is not the same patient that tells Hurley that someone is staring at Hurley. The Connect Four patient has a beard and the 'there's someone staring at you' patient does not. Also, the 'staring at you' patient's face is never clearly seen, whereas the camera focuses on the Connect Four patient's face. Also, we never again see the 'staring at you' patient in the background once the camera turns around and we see Charlie for the first time. Is this an indication that Hurley made both Charlie and the 'staring at you' patient up?

I didn't think about that untiil you brought it up - it would make sense that the patient who told Hurley about "that man is staring at you" and Charlie was both in Hurley's mind.

I'm actually more confused about Charlie now. I think whatever power is on the Island goes beyond the Island with anyone who has been there.

Also - I keep remembering Roussoue's comment about killing her people who were all "sick". We still have no answer to that mystery. Maybe the sickness comes with very lucid visual hallucinations!

Captain_Falafel

02-02-2008, 06:32 PM

Okay then. I have a best case scenario and a worst case scenario to explain the Hurley/Charlie FF scene, based on a mixture of the theories here. Knowing my luck it'll be the crappy one that plays out, but hey, I'm used to that.

Best Case Scenario = Delusional Hurley AND Paradox Charlie
Hurley does have a history of being delusional and he is probably suffering from PTSD after whatever the frak went down on the island. The vision he saw in the window of the police holding room was a hallucination that was brought on by the shock of seeing Charlie by the Ho Hos.

The Charlie who approaches Hurley in the mental hospital garden is a real living alternative Charlie created by Desmond's time travelling paradox - a Charlie who never went to the island. If the paradox!Charlie is anything like Jake in the Dark Tower books he will have inherited the memories of the dead Charlie when the universe corrected its course. So "I am dead, but I'm also here" means "I am dead on the island, but I also exist here because of the paradox".

When Hurley shuts his eyes and covers his ears he goes back to having delusions. The voice repeating "They need you" is not really Charlie's voice. It is Hurley's delusion. He is imagining Charlie's voice in his head. The paradox Charlie gets up and bolts long before Hurley opens his eyes.

Worst Case Scenario = Charlie is Jacob/Cerberus/the Island
Charlie isn't really Charlie. He is Jacob disguised as Charlie. Jacob (or Cerberus) is so insanely powerful that it can travel off the island, throw up scary visions and also take on the physical forms of dead people with new haircuts. Basically Jacob or Cerberus (I think they might be the same thing) operates very much like Stephen King's IT and is trying to force the Oceanic 6 to return to the island, just like IT forced the lucky seven to return to Maine.

I don't like this second theory at all since a) it's a very obvious route to take b) it is all getting very silly if Jacob is that powerful even on mainland, c) I just don't like the idea of something or someone else manifesting as Charlie okay? I want Charlie to be Charlie.

Phew! Well, if either theory is true Stephen King should totally sue.

pacejunkie

02-02-2008, 06:35 PM

I don't know if it has been discussed yet or not but if the time traveling chalie theory is correct then he must have been the musician that programmed the beach boys code?

Excellent. It has been theorized that all the Losties have been there before, and that is why Hurley's numbers are in the Swan, why Locke could beat the chess playing computer (and why it was programmed with chess) and why Charlie easily knew the musical code. They themselves put these things there. The original title for the series was supposed to be "The Circle".

This does seem to explain a lot, srp. I thought he was a spirit but this works just about as well. Do you think that Charlie made this trip when the hatch imploded? You know, he acted strangely and wasn't very forthcoming with Claire about what happened.

Also excellent. We never got an explanation for how Charlie got out of there. The only way out from where he was was up the shaft with the rope and he was pretty injured and had only seconds. I find it hard to believe he made it out in time.

I wonder if Mikail has knowledge of this as well. We saw him die.. but he keeps popping up all over the place.

And even more excellence. He dies, time shifts, returns, dies, time shifts, returns....

Some great stuff in this thread!

ETA: We cross posted Cappy. I think either scenario is a 50/50 shot and I agree, Jacob as Charlie would be lame. But I also think time shifting is a third possible scenario. That differs from the paradox where there is a second Charlie, that just says that the Charlie that drowned in the station time shifted and travelled to another place where he's alive.

Captain_Falafel

02-02-2008, 06:49 PM

I also think time shifting is a third possible scenario. That differs from the paradox where there is a second Charlie, that just says that the Charlie that drowned in the station time shifted and travelled to another place where he's alive.

Yes, I agree that is another possibility. Charlie has become "unstuck in time" just like Desmond did after his sacrifice in the Swan implosion. If that is the case then it is Kurt Vonnegut that needs to sue them! It's very Billy Pilgrim.

Southern Belle

02-02-2008, 06:52 PM

Okay then. I have a best case scenario and a worst case scenario to explain the Hurley/Charlie FF scene, based on a mixture of the theories here. Knowing my luck it'll be the crappy one that plays out, but hey, I'm used to that.

Best Case Scenario = Delusional Hurley AND Paradox Charlie
Hurley does have a history of being delusional and he is probably suffering from PTSD after whatever the frak went down on the island. The vision he saw in the window of the police holding room was a hallucination that was brought on by the shock of seeing Charlie by the Ho Hos.

The Charlie who approaches Hurley in the mental hospital garden is a real living alternative Charlie created by Desmond's time travelling paradox - a Charlie who never went to the island. If the paradox!Charlie is anything like Jake in the Dark Tower books he will have inherited the memories of the dead Charlie when the universe corrected its course. So "I am dead, but I'm also here" means "I am dead on the island, but I also exist here because of the paradox".

When Hurley shuts his eyes and covers his ears he goes back to having delusions. The voice repeating "They need you" is not really Charlie's voice. It is Hurley's delusion. He is imagining Charlie's voice in his head. The paradox Charlie gets up and bolts long before Hurley opens his eyes.

Phew! Well, if either theory is true Stephen King should totally sue.

I like your Best Case Scenario...I'm going with that, it makes more sense than anything else I've read lately, though I don't see Charlie bolting when Hurley closes his eyes, I can see him vaporizing and disappearing into thin air.

And I also like what myothercarisflight815 mentioned, the time shifting thing would explain a great deal about Richard not aging, Mikail refusing to stay dead and Charlie popping back up again.

Ninotchka

02-02-2008, 07:17 PM

When he visits Hurley in the mental hospital, Charlie is wearing a t-shirt with a crow figure on it. A crow (or corvus), in mythology and folklore, usually symbolizes the spiritual aspect of death.

In ancient times, people believed that when someone dies, a crow carries their soul to the afterlife. If something so wrong happens and someone dies as a result of it, their soul brings terrible sadness to the land of the dead. Sometimes their soul is carried back by the crow to put the wrong things right. Just sometimes…

In Mesopotamian legends, crow is not only a symbol of spirits, but also a messenger from far future.

One may find many references to those ancient beliefs in modern literature, movies and graphic novels. James O’Barr’s The Crow comes into mind, for example. Remember that Eric Draven was dead, but also here?

Now I’m not saying Charlie is a ghost, a spirit, or whatever you’d like to call it, nor a messenger from far future. Well I don’t really know what/who he is. I just thought Charlie wearing a t-shirt with the crow figure on might be a reference, and/or a clue. Just wanted to share.

pacejunkie

02-02-2008, 07:35 PM

Thanks Ninotchka. Good first post. Charlie has played the role of a messenger throughout Lost. He was the one Ethan spoke to when he threatened the camp and Charlie sent the message on. Charlie was the one who thought of the bottle of messages for the raft, he read out Claire's SOS message saying "We are alive" and gave the same message to Penny (again saying "we're alive"). And of course there is the most important message of all, "Not Penny's Boat". He died as a messenger.

Now here, once again Charlie plays a messenger, delivering his message of "They need you" to Hurley. I'm hoping he'll keep at it until his true mission is complete and his friends, especially Claire and Aaron, are rescued.

Captain_Falafel

02-02-2008, 08:35 PM

Now I’m not saying Charlie is a ghost, a spirit, or whatever you’d like to call it, nor a messenger from far future. Well I don’t really know what/who he is. I just thought Charlie wearing a t-shirt with the crow figure on might be a reference, and/or a clue. Just wanted to share.

Great info, Nino. I'm gonna go with messenger for now. Simply because in my book ghosts don't have a physical presence. Ghosts don't slap. That's the rule.

Speaking of costume clues...Charlie is wearing a black leather jacket. The only other time when Charlie wears a black leather jacket is when he is playing Wonderwall in the street. The Wonderwall scene where Desmond speaks to Charlie is the point we believe the paradox takes place. So the leather coat might be a hint to the paradox. I do think the Wonderwall moment was significant since they repeated it in Greatest Hits. This is where the 'I was here moments ago' sticker comes from.

Seriously...Desmond must have changed something when he went back in time or what was the point of that episode? It makes sense that Desmond altered Charlie's path when he spoke to him because that would offer a reason for Desmond's Charlie death flashes that followed. What I like best about this theory is the idea that one day Desmond will discover he created an alternative living Charlie when he time travelled, so (in a very weird confusing way) Desmond did save Charlie.

pacejunkie

02-02-2008, 08:39 PM

What I like best about this theory is the idea that one day Desmond will discover he created an alternative living Charlie when he time travelled, so (in a very weird confusing way) Desmond did save Charlie.

And at the same time island Charlie saved Desmond. Now that's just too cool. :cool:

shootingstar

02-02-2008, 09:48 PM

Best Case Scenario = Delusional Hurley AND Paradox Charlie
Hurley does have a history of being delusional and he is probably suffering from PTSD after whatever the frak went down on the island. The vision he saw in the window of the police holding room was a hallucination that was brought on by the shock of seeing Charlie by the Ho Hos.

The Charlie who approaches Hurley in the mental hospital garden is a real living alternative Charlie created by Desmond's time travelling paradox - a Charlie who never went to the island. If the paradox!Charlie is anything like Jake in the Dark Tower books he will have inherited the memories of the dead Charlie when the universe corrected its course. So "I am dead, but I'm also here" means "I am dead on the island, but I also exist here because of the paradox".

When Hurley shuts his eyes and covers his ears he goes back to having delusions. The voice repeating "They need you" is not really Charlie's voice. It is Hurley's delusion. He is imagining Charlie's voice in his head. The paradox Charlie gets up and bolts long before Hurley opens his eyes.

I like the best case scenario the best (okay that sounded redundant). But I like the idea of a Paradox Charlie.

There is so much good information on this thread.

BoogaFrito

02-02-2008, 10:02 PM

I really don't want there to be actual ghosts or spirits in the show, I want a scientific explanation. To go down the road of ghosts and spirits, is to give up and not bother to explain things properly in my opinion.I totally agree. I'd hate to see them start dipping into the supernatural well; they're already well on their way in that direction with Ms. Hawking and Jacob. Argh!

If Hurley was seeing Charlie as a ghost or hallucination, why isn't Charlie wearing his DS ring?In between Island-time and FF-time, Hurley could have easily learned Charlie had left it in Aaron's crib.

And in my desperation to believe they're not going to start waving ghosts around, I'll cling to something else: if Charlie isn't part of Hurley's imagination, why would he disappear after Hurley counts to 5?

macgreagor

02-02-2008, 10:23 PM

Regarding the Charlie/Desmond scene with him playing Wonderwall, Des has just come out of Widmore's building and he sees Charlie and recognizes him, and Des starts to babble about the Island, and Charlie says something like "That's why we don't do drugs". And then Des continues on and says something like "And Penny said where's your tie, and I said I lost it, and it started to rain" and then it DOES begin to rain and Charlie quickly packs up his stuff and runs off.

Maybe in that timeline Charlie never starts the heroin, and never had to go to Australia to get Liam back in the band because the band was still going strong. Just a thought.

Off topic, and probably addressed in another thread, Des' comment about Penny indicates that in yet another timeline he experienced (making at least three), Penny was there when he came out of the office building in order to make the comment about the tie. There were several of those type of clues in FBYE which, as unappealing as it is to some posters, indicates that the alternate timeline theories do have merit.

Desmundo

02-02-2008, 10:52 PM

So I guess that shouldn't make us assume he was "real". He looked good though :)

I think Jorge Garcia said recently in an interview that he likes how some dead characters come back as heaven versions of themselves, like Boone. They look better, Charlie did too.

My question is, is Charlie's consciousness inside the body Hurley sees? Like is it locked in there, muted, while some other entity controls the physical part? Or is Hurley being presented with Charlie's sincere ghost? Or is his body just completely a shell, controlled by someone else? I think Charlie's mannerisms were like the living Charlie's.

I wondered the same thing about Boone when he was in Locke's dream.

toddintexas

02-02-2008, 11:03 PM

Great stuff on this thread! I was so happy to see Charlie return in this episode because he was one of my favorite characters.

I really like the time shifting Charlie theory. The Jacob/Smokey theory is just so played out it seems like that's the explanation for everything that can't be explained. I only have one issue with the time shifting Charlie, or for that matter even the paradox Charlie.......what about the vision of Charlie in the holding cell? Of course it could have been an hallucination by Hurley, but that just wouldn't flow, and he had the same message on his hand as when he visited Hurley at Santa Rosa.

Anything to bring Charlie back is fine with me, I just hope it's the time shifting idea.

wanders01

02-02-2008, 11:23 PM

Darn, if it was a time paradox Charlie he should still have his DS ring because that was before he put it in the crib.

I like this idea.....rats.

bakerboys

02-02-2008, 11:31 PM

All hail PJ, the resident Charlie expert. Seriously girl, I could have quoted 6 of your posts to respond to! Thanks for telling me Dom was in the main credit list. I missed that.

I caught that too. That told me that "ghost" was surely the description used for Charlie in the script

Ditto, that JennyL.
It was great to see Dom on the show and I'm so happy PJ's on the 'lage.
Here's to more of both! :rootbeer: :rootbeer: :rootbeer:

pacejunkie

02-02-2008, 11:50 PM

I totally agree. I'd hate to see them start dipping into the supernatural well; they're already well on their way in that direction with Ms. Hawking and Jacob. Argh!

I hope you're not too upset by it but they've already gone way into the supernatural realm and there will be no other way of explaining what's going on.

if Charlie isn't part of Hurley's imagination, why would he disappear after Hurley counts to 5?

Not a problem with the time shift theory. Charlie spoke his piece, Hurley stopped listening, Charlie shifted out of there.

Regarding the Charlie/Desmond scene with him playing Wonderwall, Des has just come out of Widmore's building and he sees Charlie and recognizes him, and Des starts to babble about the Island, and Charlie says something like "That's why we don't do drugs". And then Des continues on and says something like "And Penny said where's your tie, and I said I lost it, and it started to rain" and then it DOES begin to rain and Charlie quickly packs up his stuff and runs off.

Maybe in that timeline Charlie never starts the heroin, and never had to go to Australia to get Liam back in the band because the band was still going strong. Just a thought.

I've had the same thought. In the paradox theory, every act has a ripple effect and some small change could have big consequences. That meeting with Desmond may have stuck in Charlie's mind, that Charlie may never had become a junkie, never had a failed band, never flew to Sydney and never got on flight 815. Exactly.

I really like the time shifting Charlie theory. The Jacob/Smokey theory is just so played out it seems like that's the explanation for everything that can't be explained. I only have one issue with the time shifting Charlie, or for that matter even the paradox Charlie.......what about the vision of Charlie in the holding cell? Of course it could have been an hallucination by Hurley, but that just wouldn't flow, and he had the same message on his hand as when he visited Hurley at Santa Rosa.

Personally, I think the smokey theory is the lamest most unimaginative theory going. As for the holding cell vision, I don't know, but to me it seemed like what I would imagine if Charlie (as his alter ego "the Flash") could "vibrate through walls" and escape his watery tomb. It looked liked (in a surreal way) Charlie accessing a portal and getting the heck out of Dodge.

Ditto, that JennyL. It was great to see Dom on the show and I'm so happy PJ's on the 'lage. Here's to more of both! :rootbeer: :rootbeer: :rootbeer:

Aw, you're awesome. :cheers: As I've always said, more Charlie, more me. So here's to more Charlie!

Diesels Blitz

02-03-2008, 01:14 AM

My apologies if this has been discussed before, but do you think Desmond seeing a different Charlie after turning the failsafe key had anything to do with the original Charlie dying, almost as if course correction had to take place because two Charlies couldn't exist in the world at the same time?

pacejunkie

02-03-2008, 01:20 AM

BLUEFROGBOOGIE

02-03-2008, 12:01 PM

pacejunkie

02-03-2008, 12:25 PM

It appeared to me that when Charlie first he appeared he seemed very "bright". In fact, he was wearing sunglasses. What would be the reason for a ghost to wear sunglasses? I'm thinking he time or dimension travels thru some sort of vortex that produces a flash of light.

Also, he almost gave off the feeling of being new. New clothes, new haircut, new demeanor. I don't know how to tie it all together, but the sunglasses have bothered me since I saw them..... considering that eyes are such an important symbol.

I agree, and they were big too, like the kind a celebrity wears when he doesn't want to be recognized. And the jacket, not only does a ghost not need to dress for the weather, but its the same jacket (or similar to) he wore in his flashback with Desmond, as if that's the Charlie we're seeing now, the one Desmond spoke to on the street. That's where the paradox began.

EricGunn

02-03-2008, 01:27 PM

I agree, and they were big too, like the kind a celebrity wears when he doesn't want to be recognized. And the jacket, not only does a ghost not need to dress for the weather, but its the same jacket (or similar to) he wore in his flashback with Desmond, as if that's the Charlie we're seeing now, the one Desmond spoke to on the street. That's where the paradox began.

I'm not sure what to make of Charlie, but I'm glad we may see him in FFs. From the slap, I take it Charlie's really there. Why is it that Hurley's the only one that can see him...I'm a not a Dr. But I'd like to speculate that perhaps the EM anomaly he experienced on the Island somehow altered his brain's EM balance, and therefore he can use a part of it that us "normal" folks have in a dormant state.

Walt seems to have been born with this ability, but the question rises if Locke, Desmond and Eko got some of it after the Hatch implosion? Again, I cant say. But Desmond started to have visions, Locke became...different and Eko had a face to face with Smoky that exhibited very different behavioral patterns than usual...coincidence..? Most likely.

So what is Charlie now, what's with the white light and why the sunglasses? With all the religious references on Lost, and biblical abilities (Long life, prophet-like visions, divine guidance etc etc etc...) what if Charlie's a spirit? In the bible, there is a realm where god and the angels live. A spirit realm. It's from there that Lucifer fell etc. To us humans, this state of being, or dimension is unaccessible, until death and approval from god himself. Are the Pearly Gates double locked??? ;) I bring in again the EM anomaly the Losties might have been exposed to and their effects perhaps.

What if the dormant part that is awaken let's you see spirits? Not ghosts, but spirits? I think Hurley has had that ability supressed once before. That's why he was more than happy to return. Medication seems to supress the visions. Now think oabout Jack.

We all wandered whytf he was telling the Dr to ask his father. In the Santa Rosa scene, Jack DOESNT want, or isnt accepting returning to the Island. I think Jack started to see Christian in the glass too. And that's the reason he wanted to go back in the S3 ff. But he doesnt seem to want Kate to know he's having these visions...or what?

Eric.
If there are threads reagarding these topics, can you link 'em? thanks!!

Kaz4596

02-03-2008, 02:00 PM

I really, really believe what we saw was the real Charlie. Just the way he was acting when he approached Hurley.

Does anyone remember when Dominic was passing out something at some event and there were some theories about him coming back? Can anyone find that info?
100%
http://bp3.blogger.com/_8HhjIy50yEY/R6KjUaLiPJI/AAAAAAAAAQ0/sLKVuW3imBc/s1600-h/charlie.png

What's in his hand?

I met Dom at an event in September and I told him I was so sad Charlie wouldn't be in Lost anymore and Dom said he could be back. (Not his exact words but it was a few months ago and it wasn't a lenghty converstion, he was very busy) I thought he ment for flashbacks if anything as I had read that the writers said Charlie was dead.

I didn't expect to see him so soon though, and him being in a flashforward was such a shock (in a good way though!) I'm not sure how or why he was there but I hope we see more of him and find out how Hurley can see him.

jennylee27

02-03-2008, 02:42 PM

pacejunkie

02-03-2008, 02:49 PM

Still loving this discussion. If it was "paradox Charlie" that came to the institution, then how would he have "regular Charlie's" memories of the island?

Did you read the discussion on The Dark Tower? The character in that series shared the memories of his other dead self.

jennylee27

02-03-2008, 03:00 PM

LOL, you are right. I even read that entire series over the last half year. Pardon my brain lapse.

pacejunkie

02-03-2008, 03:10 PM

LOL, you are right. I even read that entire series over the last half year. Pardon my brain lapse.

You're better than me then. I just read the synopsis. ;)

Captain_Falafel

02-03-2008, 03:39 PM

I only starting reading the Dark Tower books a few months ago. The Jake/Paradox story comes in third book in the series 'The Waste Lands'. If you want to hear another interesting catch - in the paradox segment of the book Jake has a teacher named Bonnie, a housekeeper called Greta and is reading a book about a train called Charlie.

Is this coinsidence or homage?

czardingus

02-03-2008, 04:47 PM

Darn, if it was a time paradox Charlie he should still have his DS ring because that was before he put it in the crib.

Actually, this is a good sign if you wish to see time paradox Charlie. Liam gave him the ring after Drive Shaft got big, and the Busking Charlie was pre-stardom.

pacejunkie

02-03-2008, 04:51 PM

Actually, this is a good sign if you wish to see time paradox Charlie. Liam gave him the ring after Drive Shaft got big, and the Busking Charlie was pre-stardom.

Right and if after meeting Desmond in the street that Charlie never had a succesful band with a heroin addicted brother, then Liam never gave him the ring.

jennylee27

02-03-2008, 04:57 PM

EricGunn

02-03-2008, 05:14 PM

Captain_Falafel

02-03-2008, 05:29 PM

Thanks! No, I don't think Charlie is based on the evil train - at least I hope not! However it could be significant that in the high speech of Midworld the word 'Char' means 'death'. The name Charles means 'Great man' which makes me think of Widmore's 'Great man' speech. I think the Pace and Hieronymus parts of his name might be more significant.

It was more the Bonnie and Greta names that stood out to me. They aren't common names - so when a Bonnie character and a Greta character showed up in the Jake paradox story it rung a few bells for me. I've only read the book recently.

axpo23

02-03-2008, 05:34 PM

I haven't read all of the posts yet, but I just can't believe....not yet... that Hurley is spot on with this. If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck...well, it must be a duck.
100%
After seeing Charlie with Hurley tonight, it occurred to me that Charlie might have pulled off the same "stunt" (for lack of a better term) that Desmond did last season: He travelled back in a time stream the way Desmond after the hatch explosion. Desmond was able to interact with people when he did it. Why not Charlie?

I suspect that Christian Shephard did the same thing in Season One when Jack saw him. Maybe Yemi too.

Steve
http://www.magiclamp.org/

I had forgotten about Yemi...but good point. Although, what is the catalyst for them to be able to do that? Surely not everyone who dies can do that bc Des isn't dead...But that would be a cool explanation and give some validity to Hurley, ya know?
100%

What do you guys think? Does Smokie travel Oceanic, too?

LOL! Did they give Smokey a Golden Ticket? hehe:clapping:

islandchica

02-03-2008, 05:53 PM

Okay, let me just saw first that I LOVED this scene. Really reassuring to see that Charlie WILL be back, at least in FBs and FFs. And was it just me, or is Charlie ten times hotter since he's been dead? ;)

Dom was in the opening credits tonight jenny. He was listed along with the main cast actually which must have just been a contractual thing.

See, I find that kinda odd. When other characters have been "offed", the actors are off of the cast list by the next episode. Especially considering that there have been eight months between this season and the last, I'm starting to wonder if Dom is still going to be a series regular, just in a different way.

"He was definitely there in some form because the other patient saw him."

It came from a crazy person.. He could be in Hugo's head for all we know. I think we're going to hear more from him though..

Well, yeah, the guy was in the mental institution, but that doesn't necessarily mean he was seeing things.

Not necessarily. If you watch the scene again, you can see when the other mental patient points, and they show the direction that Charlie is in, there is someone in the distance at the same angle, that patient could have meant that person, but when Hurley looked, Charlie was there.

Yeah, but didn't the guy say that Charlie was watching him? I see no reason for some random unknown Joe off the street to be watching Hurley. Charlie, though, that makes sense.

Anyways, I definitely do NOT believe Charlie is a ghost, nor is he Hurley's imagination, because 1.) the other guy could see him, 2.) he slapped Hurley to prove he was "real", and 3.) that would just be lame. I'm much more in line with the "time travel" theory that pacejunkie brought up.

axpo23

02-03-2008, 06:01 PM

I really don't want there to be actual ghosts or spirits in the show, I want a scientific explanation. To go down the road of ghosts and spirits, is to give up and not bother to explain things properly in my opinion. If they continue with that, then all the other 'mysteries' on the islands can just be completely cut short with "yeah it's supernatural" what about the numbers? "Oh that's fate, and supernatural" what about.. "supernatural!!". So I hope this isn't the case. I love the idea of the whatever it is on the island being able to manifest outside the island in the future. Perhaps the lostees did something on the island which let it escape, who knows.

I couldn't agree more. I think the "supernatural explanation" would be a bunch of junk and I'd be super angry that I wasted 5 years at the end of this thing if that was all there was.
100%
Time shifting would also explain Richard and how he didn't seem to age.

Yeeesssss. Ok, I am liking this theory a lot more.

Minotaur

02-03-2008, 06:33 PM

Well, another guy in the institution anyway.

Who I'm sure looked a lot like Jonny Knoxville...

axpo23

02-03-2008, 06:36 PM

pacejunkie

02-03-2008, 07:39 PM

Bella

02-03-2008, 11:07 PM

Maybe Hurley's schizophrenic. Maybe the patient who claimed to have also seen Charlie was just another Dave -- a figment of Hurley's imagination (or mental illness).
100%
Nope. Not just you. But then I always thought he was hot. Here he just went from hot to spectacular. Look out Sawyer. :biggrin:

Yup, Charlie looked hot. I think it was the fact that he also seemed confident, like he'd found a... purpose.

Guinevere

02-03-2008, 11:24 PM

...Yup, Charlie looked hot. I think it was the fact that he also seemed confident, like he'd found a... purpose.

I think you hit on something there, TVsBella - he has found a purpose and he's being as loyal to Hurley as Hurley's been loyal to him. He's always thought that music was his purpose and it might have been for a while but I think he's found a life purpose that has nothing to do with being a bloody rock god. I think, it's like someone else said, he's a messenger.

Olu

02-04-2008, 10:34 PM

not exactly, Dave was never really real. Hurley seems to think the Island is after them, thats right I capitalized the i in Island.

Or Dave was Libby's husband (David), who was time shifting to keep Hurley away from Libby. He was jealous. :biggrin:

MegletTX

02-05-2008, 01:47 AM

OH my gosh I just thought of something...Remember how Locke said "Crazy people don't know they're going crazy, they think they're getting saner" or something like that? Sooo if Hurley THINKS he's going crazy, then he ISN'T!! So Hurley thinks he's going crazy, gets them to put him back in Santa Rosa only Charlie comes there too...

pacejunkie

02-05-2008, 08:35 AM

danl08

02-05-2008, 11:48 AM

Dave slapped Hurley too, but I think they had that other patient see Charlie to prove he wasn't a "Dave". I think he's very real, but a ghost and I don't get how. I'm just hoping he starts appearing to all of the O6 and tells them all to go back. I want more scenes like that. Charlie and Hurley were great in that scene. More Charlie please.
I'll play Devil's Advocate here:

What if the other mental patient is actually another "Dave" in the sense that he is a figment of Hurley's mind? Then you would have Hurley confirming that Charlie was "there" by someone else who also wasn't really there.

pacejunkie

02-05-2008, 11:54 AM

I'll play Devil's Advocate here:

What if the other mental patient is actually another "Dave" in the sense that he is a figment of Hurley's mind? Then you would have Hurley confirming that Charlie was "there" by someone else who also wasn't really there.

I know, but a double bluff like that just doesn't seem to have a point. Why would Hurley imagine someone to tell him someone imaginary is there? They just could have had Charlie show up and have you assume he's imaginary rather than make a point of showing that someone else can see him. To then say, tricked you! seems like a lot of trouble to go through. I'll stick with Occam's Razor for this one and go with the simpler explanation. The other patient could see him because he could see him. It means he's not imaginary so think again.

Aggie00

02-05-2008, 01:44 PM

Here is my take on Charlie showing up at the mental hospital. He was alive and real. Now hear me out on this.

When you remember somebody, you ususally remember them from last you saw them. For example, people you knew in high school you view them as you last saw them when their name comes up. Well, Hurley last saw Charlie before going down to The Looking Glass. Charlie had facial hair and looked like, well, island Charlie. The Charlie that shows up at the mental hospital is clean cut and looks up to date on the clothes he is wearing. Why would Hurley envision Charlie looking like that?

It comes down to the whole time shifting thing. Charlie from another time/place time shifted and found Hurley and while Hurley had his eyes closed and counting, Charlie shifted back out of Hurley's time. That's the only explanation I can come up with besides the ever popular "Hurley imagined him".

Just trying to look at it at a different angle.