I am surprised that more people aren't focusing in on the fact that our beloved leader Jack was totally willing to shoot Locke IN THE HEAD! Plus, he was willing to do it in front of everyone. They have never gotten along, seen eye to eye, or whatever you want to call it, but for Jack to pull that trigger was perhaps the most shocking thing I have seen on the show, although a small instance.

Now that I think about it, it is shocking. But then, I haven't been to sure what I think of Jack from the beginning and especially not after he came back with Julia.

It has been talked about in different threads here and there. I wasn't shocked but just disappointed. Why would you want to kill a man in cold blood? Are you that much of a killer? I never knew Jack would be a killer in such a grotesque manner. If that gun had been loaded that's just what he would have been a cold blooded murderer.

It would have been awesome, except that John would probably have died, and I like his character so that'd be a bit of an anti-climax to see him go in the first episode of the series like that! But, I think it's great that we see just how angry Jack is, and he's willing to just do John in right there. That will presumably demolish their relationship, and make other people think differently about Jack. Or... the writers just thought it would be funny, and it won't get brought up again! *whistles tune* we'll see.

So I guess this is the same gun that Locke didn't use on Jack. If it wasn't loaded I guess it wouldn't have mattered anyway. It's interesting that both Ben and Locke thought they could con Jack into getting what they wanted (the phone from Naomi). Ben with is supposed killing of Sayid, Benard, and Jin and Locke with threatening to shoot him. They both failed. Kate was the only one that could still 'con' him so to speak(by taking the phone). I think him shooting Locke was just to show that he's gone over the edge.

I tried to post about this exact thing last night, but the lage ate my post, lol.

There's been a Jack vs. Locke theme since S1. And this is just another instance. It was shocking in TTLG when Locke pointed the gun at Jack. And didn't Jack say, "We both know you're not going to shoot me, John"?? That was mirrored last night when Jack pointed the gun at Locke and he said the same thing.

The look in both of their eyes after Jack actually DID pull the trigger was awesome. That moment was a turning point. We really see how angry Jack is. Locke had a look of complete disbelief and almost sounded like a child when he said, "It's not loaded." Jack's look...OMG....I'm not sure if he couldn't believe the gun wasn't loaded (realizing Locke would never have shot him before, yet he, himself, pulled the trigger), or if he couldn't believe he pulled the trigger. I tend to believe it was the latter.

I think Jack knows Locke is so determined to keep them on that island, and Jack feels rescue is so close, he would rather kill a man than take a risk of letting Locke ruin his plans.

If Locke and Ben constantly put me in a spot where I'd have to make decisions like letting Jin, Sayid and Bernard die to secure everyone's rescue, I think I would rather murder someone than EVER have to face that again. This scene for me was a logical, very well executed followup to the moment in TTLG where Jack has to "let it happen". It breaks him so badly, he would rather kill than have to face that impossible choice again.

Wasn’t that the same pistol that Locke fired as Jack reached for the sat-phone at the radio tower? I guess he could have unloaded it in the interim.

But yes, when Jack pulled the trigger on Locke, I said, “Everything changes...again.” Pulling that trigger did more than divide, it created enemies. I can hear Locke now confronting Jack by saying, “You tried to kill me, but I never tried to kill you, Jack. The whole time I’ve been trying to save you.”

Just as Locke crossed the line (Boone), Jack has now crossed it. I have a feeling he will be working harder than ever to retain the leadership and respect of his faction.

I really felt like that was the turning point in Jack's personality that ultimately leads to the depressed alcoholic in the FFs. I was very shocked by his actually pulling the trigger and the number of times Jack said that he was going to kill someone in the last two episodes.

Jack didn't really hesitate did he? Locke challenged him and Jack squeezed the trigger. Immediately .
Also I think it is interesting to note earlier in the episode when asked why Jack was taking Ben with them Jack said he wanted Ben to know he failed and they were rescued and THEN Jack said he was going to kill him.

I had this exact same conversation with my buddy last night while watching the show.

I think this is by far one of the most shocking moments in Lost...granted some of the things we are shown that are shocking are nothing more than revelations from character's pasts. This showed us how truly bipolar Jack is.

Then we I saw the gay couple and moved on...

It wasn't a "heat of the moment" thing, either. It was premeditated. Jack had already told Kate he wouid kill Locke if he returned.

"Frontier justice" might have had a point earlier, but at that juncture they were minutes away from rescue (or at least intervention from the outside world). Restraining Locke would have been enough.

I never knew Jack would be a killer in such a grotesque manner.

I'm not surprised. Anyone is capable of being a killer. It just took Locke to push the right button for Jack to make such a move.

Yeah, it just occured to me that when Locke found the gun, it only had one bullet in it and he used that to shoot at the phone. I should have thought of that during TTLG.

Anyway, I'm not so sure Jack would have killed Locke. It was a revolver. Its pretty easy, while looking down the back of a revolver like that to see that its not loaded. I think Jack was trying to send a message to Locke by pulling the trigger, but I do'nt think he ever intended to kill him. He sure gave up on the idea quick if he was so willing to do it. I mean, after a minute or two, he just let Locke speak his peace and walk away.

Either way, it is certainly something that my thoughts may change on as the season progresses.

I don't know, Greatheights, Jack looked really surprised that the gun didn't shoot.

Yeah, it just occured to me that when Locke found the gun, it only had one bullet in it and he used that to shoot at the phone. I should have thought of that during TTLG.

That’s right. Locke picked up that souvenir during his stay in the Dharma Ditch.

Jack lost it when he thought the Others show Sayid, Jin and Bernard. Would have killed Ben if the plot allowed it (wouldn't you have?)
Remember the woman who said "you won't shoot," to Sun. BLAM.
I actually laughed when Jack pulled the trigger.
Jack knew Locke wouldn't shoot him. Or was pretty sure. But after all the screw ups Locke has made, I'd have wanted to kill him, too, if I were Jack. He doesn't know what we viewers know. From his perspective, Locke was sabotaging the rescue for no good reason.

The look in both of their eyes after Jack actually DID pull the trigger was awesome. That moment was a turning point. We really see how angry Jack is. Locke had a look of complete disbelief and almost sounded like a child when he said, "It's not loaded." Jack's look...OMG....I'm not sure if he couldn't believe the gun wasn't loaded (realizing Locke would never have shot him before, yet he, himself, pulled the trigger), or if he couldn't believe he pulled the trigger. I tend to believe it was the latter.

Me too mate. :)

I didn't think it was shocking at all. From Jack's POV, Locke knifed an innocent woman in the back, threatened to kill Jack, and tried to stop the rescue. What did you think Jack was going to do - say to himself, "Oh, that crazy Locke" and shrug it off? Locke was a threat to Jack's life, and the lives of everyone trying to get off the island. It is perfectly reasonable to believe Jack would try to take Locke out.

Jack sees the light at the end of the tunnel - for him, rescue is coming, and he's had it with everything and everyone trying to stop it. Of course, we know the light is really the oncoming train.

Just like when Locke told Jack, "You're not supposed to do this" as Jack was calling for rescue on Naomi's radio or how Locke knew about Naomi in the first place (did he really know that Naomi wasn't who she claimed to be or did it matter at all since she was the one providing rescue and he would've killed her anyway?), I think Locke somehow foresaw that Jack would try to kill him, hence the unloaded gun (which was definitely loaded beforehand when Locke shot at Jack as he reached for the phone). Of course that realization couldn't have stopped the shock on Locke's face when Jack actually squeezed the trigger. BTW, was anyone else surprised that no one tried to tackle the gun away from Jack?

Locke has more than once sabotaged Jack's/the Losties chance of rescue. Jack wasn't going to let Locke stop them again and within hours of rescue. From Jack's POV, Locke's life would have been a sacrifice that had to be made.

I can definitely see what lead Jack to want to kill Locke in cold blood, coincidentally, the same way Locke killed Naomi. It made for an awesomely dramatic scene supported by great acting by both Fox/O'Quinn. That being said, I'm glad that the gun wasn't loaded because even though he drives me nuts at times, I like Locke. But, even without any bullets, the impliction by Jack's actions are crystal clear and lines have been drawn by the Losties. Although, I can't help but wonder if the Losties siding with Locke are doing so because they believe in Locke or because they are afraid of the imminent "rescue".

Jack has become increasingly violent. He has threatened to kill several people in the past couple episodes (Ben and Tom) and now he really tried it with Locke. It's pretty disturbing to see him lose his cool like that.

I am surprised that more people aren't focusing in on the fact that our beloved leader Jack was totally willing to shoot Locke IN THE HEAD! Plus, he was willing to do it in front of everyone. They have never gotten along, seen eye to eye, or whatever you want to call it, but for Jack to pull that trigger was perhaps the most shocking thing I have seen on the show, although a small instance.

i agree a hundred percent, i was completely blown away when the hammer came down. did he try twice, or was i just too shocked to notice the one time?

I thought it was just intense seeing them face to face again. LOL

I couldn't wait to see what could happen.. I was a bit surprised in Jack too for pulling the trigger, but his anger and frustrations with Locke's actions was building up on him for so long though, so it had to come at some point.

The reunion with EVERYONE (I mean everyone this time around, except for poor Charlie) was just awesome to see again!! Locke has been away for so long.. you forget how much he had gone through since day one. Those past clips of him in the one hour special was a great reminder of Locke's desire to find answers and to get others to see what he sees.

I still remember that part when he first saw the smoke monster in Season 1 and said "I've looked into the eye of this island. And what I saw was beautiful."

I'm glad he still lives.. wouldn't be the same without him. He's always been the key to the island's big mysteries.

I can't say that I was suprised. The tension with Jack has been building for a while now. Its evident that Jack is frustrated with the Losties and the stress of being a leader, especially with the growing discontent among the ranks. Other Losties are beginning to understand Locke's POV, especially now with the death of Charlie and the relay of "Not Penny's Boat". Jack being the Alpha-male, man of science, fixer-type sees the problem as "Get rescued/off the island" but fails to understand the problem from Locke's POV. He's just fixing the current problem. Its not until the TTLG FF that he finally sees the bigger picture, but we don't know what that is yet, only our theories.

At the point where Jack pulls the trigger, he's lost it. Perhaps it was a test that Locke needed to do to prove something to Jacob/the island? Maybe that Jack isn't worthy of staying? Logically, its merely Jack removing an obstacle to getting off the island, ie Locke blowing up the sub, knifing Naomi, (knowingly) blowing up The Flame, etc.

It seems that there was more than one bullet in the gun. I remember Locke spinning the chamber around, with a perspective that allowed to count the bullets, while laying in the Dharma Ditch. But I'll have to dig up that episode to check.

I really felt like that was the turning point in Jack's personality that ultimately leads to the depressed alcoholic in the FFs. I was very shocked by his actually pulling the trigger and the number of times Jack said that he was going to kill someone in the last two episodes.
EXACTLY! Between TTLG and TBOTE Jack told Tom he was going to kill him Jack told KAte he was going to kill Ben and then Jack told Kate he was going to kill Locke! What is up with that? Then he went ahead and pulled the trigger! Overboard.

I remember the gun Locke found at gravesite had several bullets, he only used one to shoot at the phone.

The thing that concerns me is Jack and Claire are the only two main characters who haven't killed anyone. For him to pull the trigger in an attempt to kill Locke in cold blood is completely out of character.

I don't think it's out of character at all. I think anybody who's been pushed as far as Jack's been pushed will eventually snap. He's my favorite and I love him dearly and I find this development completely believable and a necessary step in his evolution. I love it.

EXACTLY! Between TTLG and TBOTE Jack told Tom he was going to kill him Jack told KAte he was going to kill Ben and then Jack told Kate he was going to kill Locke! What is up with that? Then he went ahead and pulled the trigger! Overboard.

See, I think the two are very closely related. I've said this elsewhere...

I think the biggest shocker for me was having everyone stand there and not a single person asks Locke: "But WHY are these guys evil? And HOW do you know it? WHY should we foresake a rescue we're desperate for, just based on Charlie writing something we have no context for and the word of a man who has blown up every chance at rescue we got." Then I remembered LOST doesn't roll that way.

I've thought about it and Jack willing to kill Locke doesn't really surprise me. I think I know the exact moment when Jack snapped because Locke and Ben keep putting him in a position to make choices nobody should have to make. I was always impressed by how absolutely broken and devastated his voice sounds after he tells Tom that he's going to find him and kill him.

I'm not surprised because the answer to me is on his face when he tells Kate he had to let it happen. He had to let his friends die and had to make that choice. The road to the 6th St.Bridge started a long time ago and this was the big turning point that led to Jack trying to shoot Locke in the face. His hatered of Ben and Locke and anyone who puts him in a position to have to make that kind of decision is just what bubbles at the surface after three months of intense terror. He's terrified of a rescue that's so close, he can feel it and the possibility of losing it again and again and again (usually as a consequence of Locke blowing :censored: up) is simply too much for Jack. It breaks him.

He'll be fine, as we've seen in that moment when he acknowledges how sick he is of lying and how disgusted he is with himself, but now I'm even more excited to see what's going on with Jack before and after TTLG. I'm just so glad to see his story written the way it is.

chick, I think Locke knew what he was doing too and found it interesting that nobody bothered to help him or defend him, not even those who followed him.

I didn't think it was shocking at all. From Jack's POV, Locke knifed an innocent woman in the back, threatened to kill Jack, and tried to stop the rescue. What did you think Jack was going to do - say to himself, "Oh, that crazy Locke" and shrug it off? Locke was a threat to Jack's life, and the lives of everyone trying to get off the island. It is perfectly reasonable to believe Jack would try to take Locke out.

Jack sees the light at the end of the tunnel - for him, rescue is coming, and he's had it with everything and everyone trying to stop it. Of course, we know the light is really the oncoming train.

Quizzical is absolutely right. Jack would be entirely justified in shooting Locke. That said I am glad he didn't and I think Locke is is probably right.

cons have always been a humongous theme in Lost and I believe this is just another one. I think that John new Jack would pull his gun from him and he basically let Jack take it. If John hadnt wanted Jack to get it then Jack would never have been able to.

Why.......John wanted this to happen so the other Losties would see Jack's true colors and choose to go with him instead of Jack to the Barracks. John was able, with this simple con, to put doubt in the minds of most of the losties about jack and even though only about half decided to follow John, I think that all the losties view of Jack has been forever changed.

Unfortunately due to the PG nature of this board and the restrictions around the use of profanity it is impossible for me to express my true feelings regarding the character of Jack.

I think the biggest shocker for me was having everyone stand there and not a single person asks Locke: "But WHY are these guys evil? And HOW do you know it? WHY should we foresake a rescue we're desperate for, just based on Charlie writing something we have no context for and the word of a man who has blown up every chance at rescue we got." Then I remembered LOST doesn't roll that way.

I was bothered by the same thing! I would have gone with Jack without a second thought simply because "Not Penny's Boat" doesn't tell you much indicating that these guys are not going to rescue you. People who had a scene ago been overjoyed to be leaving weren't asking any questions- which is insane, but that's Lost for ya' sometimes!

Oh, and your insights into Jack's character are always very interesting and informative to read. :) I myself was shocked that Jack actually pulled the trigger... but it doesn't seem out of character to me considering all the stresses he has been under in the past day and the personal vendetta he (understandably) has against Locke.

I think it served to prove how desperate and frightened and at the end of his rope Jack has become. But honestly, the person I was watching with, prior to that scene, said, "Why the hell hasn't Jack killed Locke already?!"

Locke has, numerous times, pushed Jack to the edge. I'm not at all surprised that Jack pulled the trigger.

I am surprised that more people aren't focusing in on the fact that our beloved leader Jack was totally willing to shoot Locke IN THE HEAD! Plus, he was willing to do it in front of everyone. They have never gotten along, seen eye to eye, or whatever you want to call it, but for Jack to pull that trigger was perhaps the most shocking thing I have seen on the show, although a small instance.

I agree, my jaw dropped and my wife said she couldn't believe it. It seemed so right for the moment though that I didn't think about the context of it.

Very intense.

Well, here's another point that no one has made yet: Locke went for his gun first. When Jack punched him, and Locke was on the ground, Locke immediately grabbed for his gun. This is the same gun that he fired at Jack twice before and just before murdering Naomi. Jack never pulled the gun on Locke or reached for the gun. Jack meant to beat him up. The minute Locke went for his gun, it was clear to Jack that Locke was going to shoot HIM. There was a struggle for the gun, and Jack got it first. Just thought I'd point that out.

As for Jack firing the gun, I was surprised, but then again, Locke had it coming. We have to remember that from the time Locke blew up the sub to the moment between Locke and Jack last night, it was only a matter of days. Within that time, Locke thwarted an escape on the sub, joined the Others, got Sawyer to murder his father. Then Jack and Company plot a trap for the Others, Jack listens as he believes three of his friends are murdered. He later is confronted at gunpoint by Locke - ONCE AGAIN - and watches as Locke murders an innocent woman. (You have to consider her innocent from the Losties view because they don't know what we know.) At this point, Jack is an emotional powder keg, and justifiably so. This doesn't even include all the previous stuff Locke did. The icing on the cake is the news of Charlie's death - another unnecessary thing that didn't have to happen if not for the Others and their jamming devices and Dharma stations

Considering all the Losties that have murdered in absolute cold blood, Jack should not painted with a special brush. The man is human and flawed and has been pushed to his limits. Locke has never given an explanation for his actions, but he expects people to take him at his word. Why? For what reason? That's why Jack exploded at him that he was insane when he suggested everyone come with him.

As for Jack pulling the trigger, I don't think it will be a huge thing between him and Locke. Afterall, Ben put a bullet in Locke and left him in the Dharma death pit, and Locke didn't say a word when he saw him again. In fact, Ben is part of Camp Locke now. Go figure.

Yeah, I agree, I was saddened and shocked by this turn in Jack's behavior. Not that he wouldn't be justified in shooting Locke: whether he would be or wouldn't be isn't the point. There is a proximity theory of ethics, that we treat the people we know--neighbors, friends, family, acquaintances--with greater care than we treat people half-way around the world. Isn't that how we act in everyday life--we act in the interests of our tribe. For Jack to shoot one of his own in cold blood, no matter if his beliefs are diametrically opposed to that person's, is an affront at the most basic level. Locke may kill someone he believes is meant to due his tribe harm, but he won't kill a member of his tribe.

Jack was acting out of hubris as much as out of genuine care. Yes, he wants to save his people. What does that arise out of? He has been known to be a caring person, but also, as someone who wants to fix things. That comes out of a need to be a hero, a savior. You could see in Jack's eyes that he was getting desperate to hold onto the thing that makes him special: his heroism. Look how proud he is of his tattoo. He is marked as different, as a leader. He needs that. For Locke to continually F that up is as much a problem because it destroys Jack's fundamental identity as it is because people's lives are at stake. Hubris is Jack's downfall: out of his need to fix, to save, to lead, comes whatever tragedy awaits the survivors after the freighter people land.

That tragic note actually makes Jack a more sympathetic character than he ever was. It also makes him wrong, and more human than savior. So it shocked and saddened me, but good tragedy never comes without that price.

Yeah, I agree, I was saddened and shocked by this turn in Jack's behavior. Not that he wouldn't be justified in shooting Locke: whether he would be or wouldn't be isn't the point. There is a proximity theory of ethics, that we treat the people we know--neighbors, friends, family, acquaintances--with greater care than we treat people half-way around the world. Isn't that how we act in everyday life--we act in the interests of our tribe. For Jack to shoot one of his own in cold blood, no matter if his beliefs are diametrically opposed to that person's, is an affront at the most basic level. Locke may kill someone he believes is meant to due his tribe harm, but he won't kill a member of his tribe.

Jack was acting out of hubris as much as out of genuine care. Yes, he wants to save his people. What does that arise out of? He has been known to be a caring person, but also, as someone who wants to fix things. That comes out of a need to be a hero, a savior. You could see in Jack's eyes that he was getting desperate to hold onto the thing that makes him special: his heroism. Look how proud he is of his tattoo. He is marked as different, as a leader. He needs that. For Locke to continually F that up is as much a problem because it destroys Jack's fundamental identity as it is because people's lives are at stake. Hubris is Jack's downfall: out of his need to fix, to save, to lead, comes whatever tragedy awaits the survivors after the freighter people land.

That tragic note actually makes Jack a more sympathetic character than he ever was. It also makes him wrong, and more human than savior. So it shocked and saddened me, but good tragedy never comes without that price.

I disagree that it was hubris motivating Jack's actions in this case. Everyone seems to forget that even though he's assumed the position of leader on the island, he's a human being first and foremost -- and every human being has a breaking point. Can you imagine what these people have been experiencing for the last three months? And Jack, as their leader, has the added pressure of being the one they all turn to for direction and reassurance. But who can he turn to?

I think that him pulling the trigger was simply the act of a desperate, frightened man who had been pushed to the end of his rope; it was a visceral reaction to Locke's actions and the violent, unpredictable environment they've all been exposed to for the last 91 days.

Jack is a determined man. I think if you go back and watch the last couple episodes of season 3, you will feel a little bit better about Jack almost killing Locke.

Remember the woman who said "you won't shoot," to Sun. BLAM.

that was my first thought as well... maybe "you're not going to shoot me jack" was the last push over the edge that he needed, Locke has given him plenty of reasons to want to pull that trigger, but maybe telling him he wouldn't do it was the straw that broke the camel's back, no? just mytwocents.

but i agree, this was a pretty chilling and powerful moment; seemed like a logical step in Jack's character arc for me, but also sort of made me like him more because it made him more human and less so up on a pedestal. if everyone else has killed someone, should this be so shocking? after all Locke has made at least 3 attempts to prevent them from getting off the island...

Everyone seems to forget that even though he's assumed the position of leader on the island, he's a human being first and foremost -- and every human being has a breaking point.

Hubris IS human. All too human. The Greek tragedians knew this. So do the writers and producers, I'll wager.

Yes, obviously and of course, I can imagine what these (fictional characters) would be going through. That doesn't at all oppose the fact that Jack sees himself as a hero, and needs to be one. If that weren't the case, then I'm not sure why the scene in which Jack pointedly tells the sheriff that her translation of the Chinese characters was (technically) correct, but that her translation was not what the characters mean.

but also sort of made me like him more because it made him more human and less so up on a pedestal. if everyone else has killed someone, should this be so shocking? after all Locke has made at least 3 attempts to prevent them from getting off the island...

Of course I totally agree with you about it making him more human. And yeah, in a universe (the island) where people seem pretty darned okay with killing, it's remarkable Jack lasted this long without doing so. Which is why I find it so sad--but in a good way. How dull perfection is!

As for Jack firing the gun, I was surprised, but then again, Locke had it coming. We have to remember that from the time Locke blew up the sub to the moment between Locke and Jack last night, it was only a matter of days. Within that time, Locke thwarted an escape on the sub, joined the Others, got Sawyer to murder his father. Then Jack and Company plot a trap for the Others, Jack listens as he believes three of his friends are murdered. He later is confronted at gunpoint by Locke - ONCE AGAIN - and watches as Locke murders an innocent woman. (You have to consider her innocent from the Losties view because they don't know what we know.) At this point, Jack is an emotional powder keg, and justifiably so. This doesn't even include all the previous stuff Locke did. The icing on the cake is the news of Charlie's death - another unnecessary thing that didn't have to happen if not for the Others and their jamming devices and Dharma stations.

I completely agree. Locke has never given an explanation for his actions to the Losties, so from their POV, he's just trying to keep them on the island when they all want to get off. He blew up The Flame, and lied about not knowing about the C4, Blew up the submarine and then killed Naomi, whom the Losties didn't realize is a liar. Locke could have easily have done something different than killing Naomi to ensure the boat wasn't contacted.

Jack pulling the trigger completely make sense to me, although I was shocked. If I was Jack and saw Locke at the sub explosion, I would have grabbed Ryan's gun and shot Locke then. Jack had been hoping to leave and was just about to get on the sub to go home and it blows up? How angry would you be if this had happened?:mad:

Now the one thing I find a little surprising, and wished the writers had done, was have the gun be loaded and not fire. Much more dramatic, and points to Locke's special connection to the island because the island didn't want him to die. Just seemed like a better way for that scene to play out. Much more surprise on everyone's faces.

And yes, there was definitely more than one bullet in Locke's gun. I believe the gun was fully loaded when he checked the chamber in TTLG before he put it to his head.

Well, here's another point that no one has made yet: Locke went for his gun first. When Jack punched him, and Locke was on the ground, Locke immediately grabbed for his gun. This is the same gun that he fired at Jack twice before and just before murdering Naomi. Jack never pulled the gun on Locke or reached for the gun. Jack meant to beat him up. The minute Locke went for his gun, it was clear to Jack that Locke was going to shoot HIM. There was a struggle for the gun, and Jack got it first. Just thought I'd point that out.

As for Jack firing the gun, I was surprised, but then again, Locke had it coming. We have to remember that from the time Locke blew up the sub to the moment between Locke and Jack last night, it was only a matter of days. Within that time, Locke thwarted an escape on the sub, joined the Others, got Sawyer to murder his father. Then Jack and Company plot a trap for the Others, Jack listens as he believes three of his friends are murdered. He later is confronted at gunpoint by Locke - ONCE AGAIN - and watches as Locke murders an innocent woman. (You have to consider her innocent from the Losties view because they don't know what we know.) At this point, Jack is an emotional powder keg, and justifiably so. This doesn't even include all the previous stuff Locke did. The icing on the cake is the news of Charlie's death - another unnecessary thing that didn't have to happen if not for the Others and their jamming devices and Dharma stations

Considering all the Losties that have murdered in absolute cold blood, Jack should not painted with a special brush. The man is human and flawed and has been pushed to his limits. Locke has never given an explanation for his actions, but he expects people to take him at his word. Why? For what reason? That's why Jack exploded at him that he was insane when he suggested everyone come with him.

As for Jack pulling the trigger, I don't think it will be a huge thing between him and Locke. Afterall, Ben put a bullet in Locke and left him in the Dharma death pit, and Locke didn't say a word when he saw him again. In fact, Ben is part of Camp Locke now. Go figure.

Agreed. Also, remember that if Sun doesn't get off the island within a month, she and the baby will die and Jack knows this. I don't think in his mind he thinks he can afford to let Locke mess things up one more time.

It has been talked about in different threads here and there. I wasn't shocked but just disappointed. Why would you want to kill a man in cold blood? Are you that much of a killer? I never knew Jack would be a killer in such a grotesque manner. If that gun had been loaded that's just what he would have been a cold blooded murderer.

Oh you mean like when he so bravely knifed Naomi in the back? If that wasn't cold blooded, she didn't even have a chance.

Also wasn't the gun loaded when John was in the pit? Did he unload or did it misfire?
Maybe the island protected him.

Oh you mean like when he so bravely knifed Naomi in the back? If that wasn't cold blooded, she didn't even have a chance.

Also wasn't the gun loaded when John was in the pit? Did he unload or did it misfire?
Maybe the island protected him.
He fired it at least once at phone near the Radio Tower.

At first I was extremely pissed at Jack for pulling the trigger, as Locke has always been my favorite character. However after thinking about it from Jack's perspective, he was walking towards the submarine, moments away from leaving the island, when Locke shows up out of nowhere and blows it up. Now I still think killing Locke is going too far, but I can definitely see why Jack has been driven to that point.

I think I've worked out what Locke meant. Put the dialogue together without the intervening event (Jack pulling the trigger.)

"You're not gonna shoot me Jack. Anymore than I was gonna shoo[t you.] It's not loaded."

The inference being that Locke would have shot him had the revolver been loaded.

Hey Claudia815, I think you have the right of it. Locke has already stopped Jack from getting of the island once (although we all know that THAT would never have happened ~ Ben was definately shine'n them on and Locke saved Ben from looking like the true monster manipulator he is). But this moment is not as far out of character as one might think. Consider, Jack has already demonstrated his willingness to kill other survivors in order to get off the island (technically speaking he "Killed" Bernard, Sayid and Jin) just because they didn't really die, does not mean he wasn't willing to sacrifice them to get off the island and hey, that kind of moral /ethical schizm would definately cause an nervous breakdown.

I think I've worked out what Locke meant. Put the dialogue together without the intervening event (Jack pulling the trigger.)

"You're not gonna shoot me Jack. Anymore than I was gonna shoo[t you.] It's not loaded."

The inference being that Locke would have shot him had the revolver been loaded.

That's pretty good!

I still think Locke wouldn't have shot Jack, though. He could cold-bloodedly kill Naomi, it's true, but he has no sentimental attachment to her. She is not of his tribe. She means to hurt the island. But Locke can be sentimental and loyal to those he's bonded with. I think he does have sentimental attachments to all of his original tribe members, including Jack. He's sabotaged him, but wouldn't kill him.

that was my first thought as well... maybe "you're not going to shoot me jack" was the last push over the edge that he needed, Locke has given him plenty of reasons to want to pull that trigger, but maybe telling him he wouldn't do it was the straw that broke the camel's back, no? just mytwocents.
Not to mention that a common saying in the show is ' Don't tell me what I can't do'

I love Locke, I do, but I can't blame Jack for wanting to shoot him. For all the things that Locke has done the last few days on the island, all the attempts of leaving the island that have been sabotaged by Locke without any explanation why. I would love to know why Locke thinks they need to stay so badly, outside of him not wanting to go back to being in a wheelchair.

That scene almost physically hurt. I have always liked Locke better than Jack - no question. But that moment was just . . . . well I was struck dumb. If you think about it, Jack was more willing to shoot Locke . . than kill Ben!!

But then, of course he was.

It is just an indication of how far Jack has fallen and that it had already begun . . . WAY
before we seem him bearded in the future. It is the degradation of an individual and his ideals - but at the same time, it is still Jack as he REALLY ever was.

There is a Buddhist idea that the source of human suffering is desire. In this case, the desire to leave the island . . .you spend all that time plotting to leave the island, wanting to leave the island . . . wishing to leave the island . . . and WHam! Freighter people, rescue . . .relief! And then in the next moment, you're left again with yourself . . . and no growth has occurred.

Many of our "Losties," particularly Jack - are control freaks who are uncomfortable unless they can control their worlds.

And you can never can control the world.

Ben is simply a problem to be solved.

Locke is Jack's reminder that he can't control anything.

That scene was both disturbing and funny. I laughed to myself. Locke was like, "for Godsake Jack it isn't loaded." I agree with other people on here it shows to what extreme Jack is willing to be a hero. To protect and save others he is willing to kill one if he thinks (in his mind) it is necessary. He thinks he is so close to saving them that he doesn't want anymore problems. I'm not defending Jack, but what his mindset must be. I'm still on the side of Locke and I have to think that since Jack wants to bo back, then maybe those "saved" was not the best thing.

There is a Buddhist idea that the source of human suffering is desire. In this case, the desire to leave the island . . .you spend all that time plotting to leave the island, wanting to leave the island . . . wishing to leave the island . . . and WHam! Freighter people, rescue . . .relief! And then in the next moment, you're left again with yourself . . . and no growth has occurred.

that's a great perspective. yes, non-attachment: that's what the buddhists advocate. easy to see why (but so hard to put into practice!).

I didn't think it was shocking at all. From Jack's POV, Locke knifed an innocent woman in the back, threatened to kill Jack, and tried to stop the rescue. What did you think Jack was going to do - say to himself, "Oh, that crazy Locke" and shrug it off? Locke was a threat to Jack's life, and the lives of everyone trying to get off the island. It is perfectly reasonable to believe Jack would try to take Locke out.
Jack sees the light at the end of the tunnel - for him, rescue is coming, and he's had it with everything and everyone trying to stop it. Of course, we know the light is really the oncoming train.

Well said. It's all a matter of point of view and what the losties are seeing certainly puts locke in a not so favorable light. They've seen him blow this and that up, be violent, crazy, and in their minds it's because he doesn't want to be rescued and pretty much are stopping their rescues as well.. but I think that locke (like ben) believes that rescue is not to their overall benefit. Point being that the Losties (read Jack) just see his efforts in preventing the rescue they all think they want. I'm still a bit mystified about how/why the gun was unloaded. I'm hopeful that at some point we'll get that answer - and it will make sense - but for now I'm lost.. The action of Jack pulling the trigger is whats key though. It escalated to the point where he was ready to shoot locke at close range between the eyes.

Just wanted to throw the fact that Jack sure has done a lot of "I'm gonna kill" talk in the last few episodes. He said it about Ben, Tom, & Locke. Now that I think about it, hasn't he made almost all of the "threats" in front of Kate? Is he trying to put on the tough-guy act for her?

While very shocking that Jack was put in that posistion, think about this:

Jack wanted off the island so bad, he was willing to kill Locke before he left.
Now in the future, he is screaming to go back.
What is SO bad in his life he wants to do this?

Just wanted to throw the fact that Jack sure has done a lot of "I'm gonna kill" talk in the last few episodes. He said it about Ben, Tom, & Locke. Now that I think about it, hasn't he made almost all of the "threats" in front of Kate? Is he trying to put on the tough-guy act for her?

Why would Kate be impressed by that?

Not that she would be impressed by the fact that he is wanting to kill people. I think I put that out there wrong.
I mean more like Jack knows Kate fell for the bad boy of the bunch. He still loves her.
Jack has always tried to save people (fix everything) which, in my opinion, is the exact opposite of being the hard-a$$ that Sawyer is.
Now he is pi$$ed and on one hand, he is still trying to save her. On the other hand, he is ready to kick butt & take names later, more like Sawyer.

Ok, maybe that makes no sense. HAHA! Ignore me & I might go away. ;)

.... But Locke can be sentimental and loyal to those he's bonded with. I think he does have sentimental attachments to all of his original tribe members, including Jack....

maybe, but do you remember him being sentimentally attached or even all that upset when his actions led to Boone's death? I'm not confident that he has that much of an attachment to anything but the Island & himself...

also, galaxygirl, good call with "don't tell me what i can't do" being a repeated line. my thoughts exacty.

I think I've worked out what Locke meant. Put the dialogue together without the intervening event (Jack pulling the trigger.)

"You're not gonna shoot me Jack. Anymore than I was gonna shoo[t you.] It's not loaded."

The inference being that Locke would have shot him had the revolver been loaded.

I'm not sure I quite understand. In what episode would Locke have shot Jack if the gun was loaded? The gun was loaded when Locke was at the Radio Tower, because he shot at the phone. Do you mean when him and Jack were fighting for the gun in TBOTE?

As was stated before, Locke did reach for the gun way before Jack. Locke reached for it after Jack punched him.

I'd actually forgotten about that, but it might have been the last round in the revolver (he points it at Jack afterwards.) I definitely think Locke would have killed him. Even with a fully loaded gun it would have been ultimately futile though, as he could only have taken out six of them before someone made the call...

When Locke checked the gun for bullets in TTLG, it was fully loaded.

I don't think Locke would have shot Jack, he knows Jack is supposed to be there, on the island, so he actually has importance to Locke. Plus, he could only have killed so many people before he ran out of bullets, so killing Jack wouldn't have really accomplished anything. Naomi on the other hand was viewed as a threat to the island so Locke could kill her without a guilty conscience.

It's interesting though because we see the weak Locke when he couldn't kill his father who fully deserved to die, and then we see a determined Locke kill Naomi for the good of the island. This would seem to go against his week character. Later when Jack punches him, he seems to have reverted back to a weak Locke, someone who didn't seem to be very confident.

I really felt like that was the turning point in Jack's personality that ultimately leads to the depressed alcoholic in the FFs.

Yeah, sure look like the very point where Jack snaps. Murder of the first degree...almost. Definitely, at least for me, the Biggest Shocker of the episode. Sure they hate each other, sure they've pointed guns at each other, but this is definitely a whole new level for these two (and a lovely start for S4). Even the timing was nuts... just as John was saying "...anymore than I'd shoot.." *click* (you)!, like he really didn't want Locke to finish that sentence. lol. Looks like it might be a dark road for Jack this reason.

Good point--since the end of last season it has mystified me why Locke could kill Naomi without much thought but agonized over his father so much. Likewise, why didn't he use the gun on Naomi instead of the knife?
Jack is on that slippery slope now. He has been pushed to his limits and it is the beginning of the end for him, leading up to that night on the bridge. But I am as frustrated as he is, what with Locke and Ben being so vocal that he is wrong, but never explaining exactly why. Jack, man of science, needs to hear reasons why he is doing the wrong thing and so do I, darn it!!

I know this is Lost, but he needs answers as to why what he is doing is so dreadful, instead of what it appears to be, a dream come true that they are finally getting off the island. I think I would be screaming "Tell me, Tell me why and I might believe you!"

Ben and Locke, by being so ominous but exasperatingly vague, are bringing about exactly what they fear, because it pushes Jack over the edge. Their pride in keeping the secret of the Island (whatever it is) for themselves is what is putting it in jeopardy.

I know this is Lost, but he needs answers as to why what he is doing is so dreadful, instead of what it appears to be, a dream come true that they are finally getting off the island. I think I would be screaming "Tell me, Tell me why and I might believe you!"

Thank you. In fact, Locke manipulating Hurley and using Charlie's death under the premise that "Jack would never believe us" is... how shall I put it... BS?

Start with: "Hi! My name is John Locke. Upon boarding the plane in Sydney I was paralyzed and had spent the last four years in a wheelchair after I broke my back. If you don't believe me, ask Rose. She saw me at the airport.

The Island healed me and I can walk now.

I believe the freighters spell doom for us because I know they're here to [insert reason] and if we don't get the hell out of their way, they will [insert why the losties should fear them]."

Yeah, the show would be over pretty quickly.

Interesting information about the gun having more than one bullet. I'm sure Ben will be proud of Locke for making Jack lose it and setting him up.

Speaking only of incidents on the Island:

Michael shooting Ana and Libby was the writers' story arc about what lengths a parent would go to in order to rescue a child. Charlie killed to protect Claire. Ana Lucia killed to protect herself and the tail survivors Ben killed supposedly to protect the Island (or whatever), keep the secret of his commune, and to keep the losties from leaving. Then, Sawyer killed to avenge his parents deaths. Locke has now killed, too, supposedly to keep somethign even more dreadful from happening. Now, Jack, a compassionate doctor dedicated to healing and saving lives is ready to kill anyone who gets in his way.

The pattern I see is that the writers are creating scenarios of what drives someone to kill.

Jack being ready to kill to ensure he gets rescued may lead to the redemption of Michael when he returns to the group. Few amongst them can say they would not kill under the same situation Michael was in.

Maybe Locke's unloaded the gun with his (now more than ever) powerful mind

He had no way of knowing that Locke was pointing an unloaded gun at him, assuming that it was unloaded. Somebody here has stated that the gun was fully loaded when Locke found it in the pit. Screencaps would help remove any doubt.

In any event it matters little. Locke could have unloaded the gun in the interim to set Jack up and gain influence. On the other hand, Locke may genuinely not have wanted to use the gun after having shot the phone. He may not have expected Jack to have fired at him.

It makes Jack's journey all the more interesting now. Will we down the line look back at the past 3 or 4 episodes and see them as a real turning point for his character. The leader is certainly prepared to go to whatever means necessary to ensure he gets to that boat and off of the island. Lostfan's point is a good one about the particular choices certain characters have made in this show when in possession of a gun. Michael's shooting of AL and Libby caused uproar amongst many fans, and I think the writers again challenged viewers here.

Great epi

Peace
M

Sure, Jack was serious when he said he'd kill Locke if he showed up again, but to try to plug the guy in the head with all those people around? That's really hardcore, even for Jack. I was really shocked that he pulled the trigger.

I have literally never had as much respect for Jack as I did when I heard that pin click. I hate him more every episode, and rather enjoy seeing his downfall, but Locke's callous murder of Naomi and insistence that he is right after being proven wrong so so often means that the only way Jack can earn a drop of appreciation from me is by his relentless campaign against the self-righteous git.

Thank you. In fact, Locke manipulating Hurley and using Charlie's death under the premise that "Jack would never believe us" is... how shall I put it... BS?

Start with: "Hi! My name is John Locke. Upon boarding the plane in Sydney I was paralyzed and had spent the last four years in a wheelchair after I broke my back. If you don't believe me, ask Rose. She saw me at the airport.

The Island healed me and I can walk now.

I believe the freighters spell doom for us because I know they're here to [insert reason] and if we don't get the hell out of their way, they will [insert why the losties should fear them]."

Yeah, the show would be over pretty quickly.

Interesting information about the gun having more than one bullet. I'm sure Ben will be proud of Locke for making Jack lose it and setting him up.

I dunno about that. Jack needs to see it to believe it, and having heard about Locke's "miraculous" discovery would probably think it was a freak occurence, rather than the Island's handiwork. Besides, Jack is stubborn and sometimes blind in his ways...it's like he does not want to see it, to see what Locke is talking about.

That said, it's hard for me to understand why Jack is not heeding these warnings a little more seriously. He hardly seemed swayed when Hurley mentioned Charlie's message and sacrifice...he's just that stubborn, I guess. :confused:

Jack used to be one of my favorite characters, but starting in S3, I began to tire of him. He just doesn't seem to learn and grow as much as some of the other Losties (at points it sems like he's whining), that's why I've begun to like Sawyer alot more, plus he's hilarious. Still love that Skeletor line!

Jack was definitely hurt that Hurley chose Locke over him, although I don't think Locke chose Locke, per se, but Locke was just on the same "side" as Charlie. I think when Hurley chose Locke, that's when Jack first started having doubts that was he was doing may not be right. Plus Jack had just gone through emotional turmoil in leading them up to the Radio Tower, and now some of the Losties don't want to be rescued. Hurley being one of them finally touched Jack.

Pulling that trigger did more than divide, it created enemies. I can hear Locke now confronting Jack by saying, “You tried to kill me, but I never tried to kill you, Jack. The whole time I’ve been trying to save you.”

Ooh, I can hear Locke saying this too! It saddens me because I love Locke and Jack and wish they respected one another more.

I was very surprised that Jack pulled the trigger, but then again not really. Jack's character arc is incredibly wide, from do-gooding doctor, to vengeful hero, from "no one gets left behind" to moving on with life in LA while most of the Losties apparently remain on The Island. Watching Jack reminds me of that game Pong. He bounces back and forth between extremes for sure, as Locke does also.

I always think of what Sayid told Ben about thinking he was a good person and not realizing he had the capacity to go the exact opposite way. Each of the Losties has that capacity too, and The Island is perfect environment to expose those dormant aspects of their personalities. Oddly, the characters that have been murderers off the island are challenged on the island to become pacifistic and merciful (like Kate, Sawyer, and Sayid), while the characters that off the island seems least likely to kill (Jack, Locke, Hurley), have been challenged to become warriors on the island and tap into their dark sides to survive. These actors must be having the best time!

Yeah, it just occured to me that when Locke found the gun, it only had one bullet in it and he used that to shoot at the phone. I should have thought of that during TTLG.

This seems to be at issue on this thread, but Locke's gun absolutely had 6 bullets in it when he found it (I've just checked). We saw him shoot one at the radio. Where did the rest go? Was it loaded when he pointed it at Jack? If it was, would he have pulled the trigger? Honestly, I'd like to think not. I truly believe Locke has some affection for Jack, and many of the other Losties. He clearly respects Jack's abilities and his desire to help. But he considers Jack weak for not being able to "believe" and isn't about to let anyone get in the way of his mission on The Island, affection or not so it's possible he may have killed him if he thought he had to.

I don't think it's out of character at all. I think anybody who's been pushed as far as Jack's been pushed will eventually snap. He's my favorite and I love him dearly and I find this development completely believable and a necessary step in his evolution. I love it.

See, I think the two are very closely related. I've said this elsewhere...

I think the biggest shocker for me was having everyone stand there and not a single person asks Locke: "But WHY are these guys evil? And HOW do you know it? WHY should we foresake a rescue we're desperate for, just based on Charlie writing something we have no context for and the word of a man who has blown up every chance at rescue we got." Then I remembered LOST doesn't roll that way.

I've thought about it and Jack willing to kill Locke doesn't really surprise me. I think I know the exact moment when Jack snapped because Locke and Ben keep putting him in a position to make choices nobody should have to make. I was always impressed by how absolutely broken and devastated his voice sounds after he tells Tom that he's going to find him and kill him.

I'm not surprised because the answer to me is on his face when he tells Kate he had to let it happen. He had to let his friends die and had to make that choice. The road to the 6th St.Bridge started a long time ago and this was the big turning point that led to Jack trying to shoot Locke in the face. His hatered of Ben and Locke and anyone who puts him in a position to have to make that kind of decision is just what bubbles at the surface after three months of intense terror. He's terrified of a rescue that's so close, he can feel it and the possibility of losing it again and again and again (usually as a consequence of Locke blowing :censored: up) is simply too much for Jack. It breaks him.

He'll be fine, as we've seen in that moment when he acknowledges how sick he is of lying and how disgusted he is with himself, but now I'm even more excited to see what's going on with Jack before and after TTLG. I'm just so glad to see his story written the way it is.

chick, I think Locke knew what he was doing too and found it interesting that nobody bothered to help him or defend him, not even those who followed him.

I agree with you completely Claudia. Jack is a good person, a hero, and I don't mind seeing him pushed to these extremes. It's immensely interesting and we already know that Jack eventually "gets it" and wants to come back to The Island.

But while I agree Locke could advance his cause a long way by simply explaining to everyone what happened to him on The Island, I think most would not believe him, particularly Jack. And even if Jack were forced to accept it because The Others confirmed it, or Rose confirmed it, it still wouldn't convince him to stay on The Island. He's already seem a lot of weird stuff on the island (like his dad, Desmond, etc.) and still he refuses to acknowledge that they may have been brought to the Island for a reason. I'm not sure what it's going to take to open Jack's mind on this issue. That should be very interesting to see.

Why.......John wanted this to happen so the other Losties would see Jack's true colors and choose to go with him instead of Jack to the Barracks. John was able, with this simple con, to put doubt in the minds of most of the losties about jack and even though only about half decided to follow John, I think that all the losties view of Jack has been forever changed.

That's an interesting theory. I wouldn't put it past Locke to con Jack. And it probably will affect the Losties opinions of Jack in the long run. Jack has done so much for them already, however, there are a few who will remain loyal to him no matter what.

I dunno about that. Jack needs to see it to believe it, and having heard about Locke's "miraculous" discovery would probably think it was a freak occurence, rather than the Island's handiwork. Besides, Jack is stubborn and sometimes blind in his ways...it's like he does not want to see it, to see what Locke is talking about.


But while I agree Locke could advance his cause a long way by simply explaining to everyone what happened to him on The Island, I think most would not believe him, particularly Jack. And even if Jack were forced to accept it because The Others confirmed it, or Rose confirmed it, it still wouldn't convince him to stay on The Island.

That's not the IT I'm talking about. The paralysis and miracle part is only the introduction because that's where it all began for Locke and it helps to establish motivation and answer Jack's (so beautifully delivered question): "Are.you.INSANE?" So whether Jack believes that part or chalks it up to the random universe is not important. If he's to keep a pregnant woman who will DIE in a month if she doesn't leave off a rescue boat, Locke and Ben need to come up with something better than what Charlie wrote on his hand and "Trust me cause I say so."

Jack doesn't care about the Island being special, he wants to get everybody the hell away from the monsters and the polar bears and the psycho, babynapping cult. And that is where some concrete info on the freighties and why exactly they're bad news would come in handy, not recounting the beauty and mystery of the Island.

He's already seem a lot of weird stuff on the island (like his dad, Desmond, etc.) and still he refuses to acknowledge that they may have been brought to the Island for a reason.

I don't really see that reason yet either so until Locke and TPTB show it to me, I'm not going to tell pregnant Sun to risk her life and not get on that boat based on hallucinations I had while dehydrated and suffering from PTSD (yeah, I know it's more than that but Jack doesn't get the benefit of watching his own show ;) )

That's not the IT I'm talking about. The paralysis and miracle part is only the introduction because that's where it all began for Locke and it helps to establish motivation and answer Jack's (so beautifully delivered question): "Are.you.INSANE?" So whether Jack believes that part or chalks it up to the random universe is not important. If he's to keep a pregnant woman who will DIE in a month if she doesn't leave off a rescue boat, Locke and Ben need to come up with something better than what Charlie wrote on his hand and "Trust me cause I say so."

Jack doesn't care about the Island being special, he wants to get everybody the hell away from the monsters and the polar bears and the psycho, babynapping cult. And that is where some concrete info on the freighties and why exactly they're bad news would come in handy, not recounting the beauty and mystery of the Island.

I see what you're saying, but I think you pointed out earlier, Lost just doesn't roll that way. God forbid the characters actually TELL eachother things! Tha'ts why I found it funny when Locke said he knew he had a lot of explaining to do. I hope he really understands that and starts sharing what he has been told by Jacob.


I don't really see that reason yet either so until Locke and TPTB show it to me, I'm not going to tell pregnant Sun to risk her life and not get on that boat based on hallucinations I had while dehydrated and suffering from PTSD (yeah, I know it's more than that but Jack doesn't get the benefit of watching his own show ;) )

Oh, if only. I just wish I could grab a hold of Jack and . . . . oops, got distracted by that image and lost my train of thought . . . I think I was going to say warn him that he's leading them all to disaster, but I can't really remember now.

This episode showcased so many new sides for Jack, I'm sort of reeling. I know you're probably thinking of it day and night like I am Claudia. I'd love to hear more of your thoughts on it. I'll PM you.

Come on. From season 1, Locke has been sneaking up behind people in order to knock them out (Sayid), blowing up communications stations (Flame), blowing up submarines, consorting with the enemy, abandoning his friends, and throwing knives into the backs of unarmed women. At the beginning of this episode, Jack told Kate that if Locke came back, Jack would kill him. I was so happy to see that Jack kept his word.

Just as I was happy to see Sawyer kill Anthony Cooper. After all the build up, it would have been a cop-out on the writer's part to suddenly make Sawyer say, 'oh, it's okay. I've been mad at you my entire life, but you're an all right guy. You can go. Just promise not to con any more married women!' Sawyer's life purpose was to kill "Sawyer" and he did it.

Jack would have been a weakened character if he did not do what he said he would do by killing Locke (or trying to the best of his ability, as the case were). As Sawyer said in Season 1, "It's Lord of the Flies time."

100%
.
But yes, when Jack pulled the trigger on Locke, I said, “Everything changes...again.” Pulling that trigger did more than divide, it created enemies. I can hear Locke now confronting Jack by saying, “You tried to kill me, but I never tried to kill you, Jack. The whole time I’ve been trying to save you.”

Just as Locke crossed the line (Boone), Jack has now crossed it. I have a feeling he will be working harder than ever to retain the leadership and respect of his faction.


This is VERY true. I could so hear Locke saying that very thing too. Spot on dude!!! This scene has been playing over in my mind and I just can't get over the fact that Jack would have done something like that, and in front of everyone. Does he realize how much things would have changed if the gun would have actually been loaded. The grotesque image that would have resulted would have DESTROYED the resolve of the entire group, chaos would have ensued and everything would have fallen apart. I'm surprised more people weren't affected even though the gun was empty. I would have immediately disapproved.

Jack is OBVIOUSLY losing his grip on everything. This started happening in S3 I think with Jack's psyche being picked apart by The Others in the beginning. Him saving Ben's life, staying with them and developing a relationship with Juliet through the middle, and being rescued by Kate, denied leaving the island, losing trust with his people, dealing with Ben and having to take on a leadership role all over again at the end....not to mention how he was going to LET Ben kill Jin, Sayid and Bernard. I think Jack has always had the interest of everyone at heart, but now I think he has let his desperate need to get off the island come ahead of anything else, including the people he is supposed to be leading. And really if you think about it the fact that he would have let them die AND shot Locke in cold blood makes him no different than our original betrayer Michael. Michael was just trying to do what he thought was best for his son AND all he wanted ultimately was to get himself and Walt OFF OF THE ISLAND, which is the ONLY thing Jack is truly worried about it seems like.

I believe Locke is saner than ever and Jack unfortunately is losing it. Plus we know in the not too distant future that he is obviously losing his mind and slumping into a dark hole of despair. This is what is interesting about that though. If being on the island all this time drove Jack to potential murder and crazy, what drove him to madness in the future which leads him to meeting with Kate and telling her they have to go back??? The island drove him away and is trying to bring him back now....he obviously still has more to learn. Very interesting stuff though and I'm really digging the new conversation this one episode has sparked.

maybe, but do you remember him being sentimentally attached or even all that upset when his actions led to Boone's death? I'm not confident that he has that much of an attachment to anything but the Island & himself...

Good point. But I don't think he's not not upset--when Boone came to him in the sweat lodge, Locke had this look of regret and sadness, if only for a moment.

Absolutely, onelittlenumber. He clearly showed regret in that scene with Boone. After all, Locke is a man who couldn't bring himself to shoot the undercover cop in S3. I suspect that he had no intention of shooting Jack, but that Jack clearly had every intention of killing Locke.

Why would you want to kill a man in cold blood?
Thats pretty simple actually.
Locke came out of the woods and knifed the person who was vital to them getting off the island in the back and then disappeared. Locke was a threat to every person's life on that island by his actions. Jack was merely defending himself and the rest of his flock by attempting to kill Locke.

I had this exact same conversation with my buddy last night while watching the show.

I think this is by far one of the most shocking moments in Lost...granted some of the things we are shown that are shocking are nothing more than revelations from character's pasts. This showed us how truly bipolar Jack is.

Then we I saw the gay couple and moved on...

Jack's not bi-polar. He may be seem quite obsessive, and stubborn, and somewhat mislead, but he's definitely not bi-polar.

I think the shooting scene, along with the screwdriver scene and TTLG's pill-popping scene, paint the picture of Jack, formerly in charge of himself, losing it. There's a lot of rationalizations here on the board, but shooting Locke while Locke is on his back--defenseless--is not Jack-like. Some would say it's Locke's fault and entirely justified. But let's tell the truth here--killing an enemy combatant in a war under those circumstances would be considered murder.

This signals a Jack-arc in which he starts to make bad choices, and he will pay an emotional price for doing so. This is not the cool-headed Jack we have all gotten used to--the Jack running around saving crash survivors or orchestrating Kate's and Sawyer's escape while holding a surgical patient hostage (when he himself is in enemies' hands). My guess is that we will eventually see Jack regain self-control, perhaps even better himself, in future flash-forwards. Jack-lovers (and I like the Jack character), the writers are giving Jack a "downward spiral" arc, so be prepared for more not-Jack behavior.

Remember, half of the Losties left with Locke, as they believe Locke (and Charlie) over Jack's arrogant disregard of information that contradicts his notion that the freighties are there to rescue them. Arrogance is Jack's achilles heal. And the formerly unimaginable has just occured--Jack lost the confidence of half of the Losties.

I think the shooting scene, along with the screwdriver scene and TTLG's pill-popping scene, paint the picture of Jack, formerly in charge of himself, losing it. There's a lot of rationalizations here on the board, but shooting Locke while Locke is on his back--defenseless--is not Jack-like. Some would say it's Locke's fault and entirely justified. But let's tell the truth here--killing an enemy combatant in a war under those circumstances would be considered murder.

This signals a Jack-arc in which he starts to make bad choices, and he will pay an emotional price for doing so. This is not the cool-headed Jack we have all gotten used to--the Jack running around saving crash survivors or orchestrating Kate's and Sawyer's escape while holding a surgical patient hostage (when he himself is in enemies' hands). My guess is that we will eventually see Jack regain self-control, perhaps even better himself, in future flash-forwards. Jack-lovers (and I like the Jack character), the writers are giving Jack a "downward spiral" arc, so be prepared for more not-Jack behavior.

Remember, half of the Losties left with Locke, as they believe Locke (and Charlie) over Jack's arrogant disregard of information that contradicts his notion that the freighties are there to rescue them. Arrogance is Jack's achilles heal. And the formerly unimaginable has just occured--Jack lost the confidence of half of the Losties.


Well said, all of it. This is Jack's slide, but we'll see a return at some point. I loved Jack's intensity so much in S3 but seeing this downward spiral is going to be something else!

Regarding Locke, I agree to there's been alot of rationalizing going on. This was certainly a very different Jack, and not quite consistent with the Jack we've known before; it's one big step further. Pulling the trigger on John's forhead was/would have been a cold-blooded, public murder of a man who in truth was doing what would appear to be the right thing.

not to mention how he was going to LET Ben kill Jin, Sayid and Bernard.

Let's say you're Sayid and you just told him a few hours ago that you're not going to sacrifice your life for nothing and he'd better go all the way through and get you the rescue you're willing to die for. Or Sun, knowing you're going to die in a month if you don't get out of there. Or Jin, whose willing to die to make sure that doesn't happen. Now let's say Jack doesn't listen to Sayid, cowers in front of Ben, hands him the walkie and they both go back to their respective camps. If I were Sayid and if I were released and met with Jack again, knowing there's a boat 80 miles offshore and the people I care about can't get to it cause Jack didn't have the cojones to let me die for a good cause like I asked him to, I'd strangle him with my bare hands and set out to get that satphone from Ben at all costs myself. But that's just me. (And probably Jin and Sayid as well...)

Jack has always had the interest of everyone at heart, but now I think he has let his desperate need to get off the island come ahead of anything else, including the people he is supposed to be leading.

The people he was leading were just as desperate for the rescue as he was. So that's not excluding them in any way.


And really if you think about it the fact that he would have let them die AND shot Locke in cold blood makes him no different than our original betrayer Michael. Michael was just trying to do what he thought was best for his son AND all he wanted ultimately was to get himself and Walt OFF OF THE ISLAND, which is the ONLY thing Jack is truly worried about it seems like.



Here's how one is not like the other for me. There's absolutely no good reason to kill anyone ever (except for self-defense), what I'm talking here is motivation, which is where I think you were comparing the two as well.

People Jack wanted to shoot and reason why:

*Locke (who had just pointed a gun at him for the second time in a few hours)
*probable cause:

Come on. From season 1, Locke has been sneaking up behind people in order to knock them out (Sayid), blowing up communications stations (Flame), blowing up submarines, consorting with the enemy, abandoning his friends, and throwing knives into the backs of unarmed women.
*People Jack wants to get off the Island: 40+ or anyone who wants to go. Earlier, he'd spoken to Danielle and she said "No, thanks. This is my home now." Strangely enough, Danielle is not bound and gagged and ready to be shipped on the freighter against her will.

...and the aformentioned threatening him with a gun twice.

People Michael actually shot and reason why:

*Ana Lucia and Libby
*Probable cause: were in the wrong place at the wrong time/got in the way of Michael's plan, which at no point specifically required killing anyone anyway.
*People Michael wanted to get off the Island: his son and himself.

From where I stand, one is definitely not like the other.

Plus we know in the not too distant future that he is obviously losing his mind and slumping into a dark hole of despair. This is what is interesting about that though. If being on the island all this time drove Jack to potential murder and crazy, what drove him to madness in the future which leads him to meeting with Kate and telling her they have to go back??? The island drove him away and is trying to bring him back now....he obviously still has more to learn. Very interesting stuff though and I'm really digging the new conversation this one episode has sparked.

It is. I loved that scene because it has the same effect as Jack tossing a football with Tom at the end of Par Avion. As for the whys, we can only speculate at this point, but Matthew Fox has said in a recent interview (I don't know if we can classify this as a spoiler, but I'd rather err on the side of caution)



But, as you’ll see, there’s more to him ending up suicidal than just some guilt of the way things went down on the island. It’s pretty big, and it’s unavoidable for him, the draw of the island and what’s left for him to do there and so it would be very hard for him. He would try to keep his mind off it but it would eat away at him and ultimately result in him using all types of narcotics, booze… and eventually standing on a bridge wanting to kill himself.



I don't know if all of this relates to the ghost/spirit/whatever that rocks Jacob's chair in the cabin, but it's one more reason why I'm dying to see his next episode. I think the next Jack and Ben episodes are going to be crucial for the plot.

I see what you're saying, but I think you pointed out earlier, Lost just doesn't roll that way. God forbid the characters actually TELL eachother things! Tha'ts why I found it funny when Locke said he knew he had a lot of explaining to do.

Well, yes. All I'm saying is ALL characters should be held to that standard. If we accept that convention for Locke, the same should work for Jack when it comes to not believing him.



This signals a Jack-arc in which he starts to make bad choices, and he will pay an emotional price for doing so. This is not the cool-headed Jack we have all gotten used to--the Jack running around saving crash survivors or orchestrating Kate's and Sawyer's escape while holding a surgical patient hostage (when he himself is in enemies' hands). My guess is that we will eventually see Jack regain self-control, perhaps even better himself, in future flash-forwards. Jack-lovers (and I like the Jack character), the writers are giving Jack a "downward spiral" arc, so be prepared for more not-Jack behavior.

Oh, I absolutely agree with you.

Jack's arrogant disregard of information that contradicts his notion that the freighties are there to rescue them.

They never were in the first place.

Remember, half of the Losties left with Locke, as they believe Locke (and Charlie) over Jack's arrogant disregard of information that contradicts his notion that the freighties are there to rescue them. Arrogance is Jack's achilles heal. And the formerly unimaginable has just occured--Jack lost the confidence of half of the Losties.

IMO, most of the people went with Locke because of Hurley's emotional plea about Charlie. It was only after Hurley made this speech and walked over to Locke that people began choosing "sides". Locke began making what clearly seems like insane and irrational choices for all the Losties when he blew up The Flame, the sub (supposedly), and killed Naomi, and awhile back cold cocked Sayid. He never offered any explanation of why he's doing this, and he blew up the sub and The Flame before he even knew about Naomi and her people. Locke's actions make him appear to be the one losing it. That's why I think they chose Locke's side only because Hurley went with him. They chose Hurley and Charlie over Locke.

To be honest I don't even know Locke's full reasoning for preventing anyone from leaving. Granted we know he has a special connection to the island, so fine, he can stay there, why prevent anyone else from leaving? Unless he doesn't want anyone else to find the island, and to me that sounds a whole lot like Ben. If this is the case, he owes the Losties an explanation.

The only information that Jack is disregarding, is "Not Penny's boat" written on Charlie's hand. That's not that much information, they don't have all the information we the Viewer have. Jack's been told not to call the freighter by Ben, who he knows is a liar, and by Locke who's been doing irrational things for awhile now. So to listen to Locke because of "Not Penny's Boat" on Charlie's hand would be crazy if you want to leave the island. Even Desmond stays with Jack, and he's the one who's connected to Penny, yet it's not her boat. If it was me, knowing what they know and I wanted to get off the crazy island where there's some kind of mysterious smoke thingy that kills people, a group of "others" who wants me dead, crazy whispers all over the place, and dead people showing up everywhere, I'd be the first one in line! Also remember, only Locke and Rose(Bernard) know how "special" the island is.

Let's say you're Sayid and you just told him a few hours ago that you're not going to sacrifice your life for nothing and he'd better go all the way through and get you the rescue you're willing to die for. Or Sun, knowing you're going to die in a month if you don't get out of there. Or Jin, whose willing to die to make sure that doesn't happen. Now let's say Jack doesn't listen to Sayid, cowers in front of Ben, hands him the walkie and they both go back to their respective camps. If I were Sayid and if I were released and met with Jack again, knowing there's a boat 80 miles offshore and the people I care about can't get to it cause Jack didn't have the cojones to let me die for a good cause like I asked him to, I'd strangle him with my bare hands and set out to get that satphone from Ben at all costs myself. But that's just me. (And probably Jin and Sayid as well...)

Exactly, Jack had to let them die for the greater good and as you've mentioned before, being forced to make decisions like this are what have pushed Jack over the edge and given us this very determined, will get them all rescued no matter what the cost, crazed with stubborness man who is done listening to the insane ramblings of a guy that has been mysterious to the point of being scary and sabotaging attempts at rescue since their first week on the island.


The people he was leading were just as desperate for the rescue as he was. So that's not excluding them in any way.


I agree. To suggest that it is JUST JACK that wants off that island is off the mark.

Here's how one is not like the other for me. There's absolutely no good reason to kill anyone ever (except for self-defense), what I'm talking here is motivation, which is where I think you were comparing the two as well.

People Jack wanted to shoot and reason why:

*Locke (who had just pointed a gun at him for the second time in a few hours)
*probable cause:

*People Jack wants to get off the Island: 40+ or anyone who wants to go. Earlier, he'd spoken to Danielle and she said "No, thanks. This is my home now." Strangely enough, Danielle is not bound and gagged and ready to be shipped on the freighter against her will.

...and the aformentioned threatening him with a gun twice.

People Michael actually shot and reason why:

*Ana Lucia and Libby
*Probable cause: were in the wrong place at the wrong time/got in the way of Michael's plan, which at no point specifically required killing anyone anyway.
*People Michael wanted to get off the Island: his son and himself.

From where I stand, one is definitely not like the other.


No, there is nothing comparable between Michael's act and Jack's act. Michael murdered two innocent women in a desperate attempt to save his son. Jack attempted to kill a known murderer and someone who had just threatened his life. I hate that Jack pulled the trigger and was shocked by the action and so glad the gun wasn't loaded, but wanting/needing to killing Locke at that point was understandable going by just what Jack knew of Locke's behavior and of Locke's most recent crime, which was planting a knife in the back of what Jack considers and innocent women and we don't know that she's not.

Just because Locke doesn't want outsiders to move in on his "girlfriend" doesn't mean the freighties are there to harm anyone except maybe Ben if they're in any way related to Dharma and looking to hold someone responsible for the murder of 40+ people in a single day.

Jack pulling the trigger was a shocking and pivotal moment for the character, his downward spiral already in progress and evident since "Greatest Hits" when his blood thirsty need for revenge was clouding his judgment and making him forget his true purpose, which was to protect his flock, which Sayid quickly reminded him of.

Jack is headed down a dark and disturbing path and as a Jack fan it won't be fun to watch, but it will most likely be very moving to watch especially when he hits rock bottom (which he already has in the FF in my opinion) and begins his climb back and probably emerging better for the experience and I know the actor will do a good job with it so I'm looking forward to watching it unfold.

I am surprised that more people aren't focusing in on the fact that our beloved leader Jack was totally willing to shoot Locke IN THE HEAD! Plus, he was willing to do it in front of everyone. They have never gotten along, seen eye to eye, or whatever you want to call it, but for Jack to pull that trigger was perhaps the most shocking thing I have seen on the show, although a small instance.
I agree. Jack is a healer, a medical professional, for him to be prepared to murder Locke is shocking.

This surprised me as well, but after thinking about it for a while, I think I've managed to make sense out of this...I had prepared a detailed analysis of this, including supporting evidence with references to events and flashbacks in seasons 1-3, but it ended up being two pages long (single-spaced) and I don't think anyone want to read that much...

I keep coming back to his father telling him that when he fails, he doesn't have "what it takes." Jack clearly has difficulty moving past failure, as we can see from his unravelling after the failure of his marriage. Also, probably due to his issues with his father, he needs others to validate him, his success, and even his role as a leader. So, not only has he been thwarted in his attempts to get off the island and rescue everybody recently (including several times by Locke), but Locke is also threatening to alter the perceptions of those he's leading, who may begin to doubt that rescue might arrive. He's clearly heading down a downward spiral even before Locke comes back and he sees Locke as being the source of his potential faliure, lashing out at him much as he did his father at the AA meeting, with the difference here being he's in a more deparate situation here and he has a gun.

This being said, as the main character and hero of this show, I do think Jack will pull himself out of this, even as low as he's gotten in the s3 finale flashforward (I think what we saw in the premiere was that he was rationalizing what had happened), but it will involve him moving past his issues with his father and gaining the confidence to be able to acknowledge he failed and to move past it to do what needs to be done to ultimately succeed. This should be an interesting journey and I'm actually looking forward to watching Jack's character work through this, which is something of a change, after spending most of last season pretty annoyed with him.

I thought - "It's about Dang time!"

I like this Jack. He's finally woke up to realize you can't be all "lets be friends" with this group. And I like that he's not mister White Hat after all. He needs to get angry more often!

Love that not only would he have shot him one time - but he would have shot him twice if the gun had been loaded!! He really hates Locke!

You know - I find the creators whole take on Jack to be so biased.

Sawyer actually kills Tom for taking Walt. Everybody screams - "Boo Sawyer". But Jack had just threatened Tom with death - "I'm gonna get everyone rescued then I'm gonna find you and kill you."

Then - he tells Kate I'm gonna kill Locke. And when he gets the chance he pulls the trigger twice! Just in case there was a bullet in the next chamber of the revolver! Where's the "Boo Jack"??? We just saw he obviously would have killed Locke had the gun been loaded. He's just as capable of killing as anybody else!

BOOOOOOOOOO!!!

I thought - "It's about Dang time!"

I like this Jack. He's finally woke up to realize you can't be all "lets be friends" with this group. And I like that he's not mister White Hat after all. He needs to get angry more often!

Love that not only would he have shot him one time - but he would have shot him twice if the gun had been loaded!! He really hates Locke!

You know - I find the creators whole take on Jack to be so biased.

Sawyer actually kills Tom for taking Walt. Everybody screams - "Boo Sawyer". But Jack had just threatened Tom with death - "I'm gonna get everyone rescued then I'm gonna find you and kill you."

Then - he tells Kate I'm gonna kill Locke. And when he gets the chance he pulls the trigger twice! Just in case there was a bullet in the next chamber of the revolver! Where's the "Boo Jack"??? We just saw he obviously would have killed Locke had the gun been loaded. He's just as capable of killing as anybody else!

BOOOOOOOOOO!!!

I am glad that Jack pulled the trigger, it shows his character's evolution (or deevolution as some put it) is continuing, but I'm also glad Locke wasn't killed. I want to see more confrontation between these 2, it's very entertaining.

Who booed Sawyer when he killed Tom? I thought it needed to be done, and am glad Sawyer did it. After all, Tom may come across as "friendly" at times but he was still cut throat. He was one of the ones who took Walt and blew up the raft leaving Jin, Sawyer and Michael to die, when all they wanted to do was leave. Was he one of the ones aboard Desmond's boat who shot at Sun? (Can't remember exactly who was part of that group). Not too mention he wanted to kill Sayid, Jin and Bernard even though Ben had told them not too. I certainly didn't boo Sawyer in this instance, I thought it was justified.

It also parallels, the whole event in "Saving Private Ryan" when they let the German POW go instead of kill him and then met him (supposedly) later on, and he ended up killing one of them. You never know when something might come back to haunt you.

If Locke and Ben constantly put me in a spot where I'd have to make decisions like letting Jin, Sayid and Bernard die to secure everyone's rescue, I think I would rather murder someone than EVER have to face that again. This scene for me was a logical, very well executed followup to the moment in TTLG where Jack has to "let it happen". It breaks him so badly, he would rather kill than have to face that impossible choice again.
Claudia815, I wrote this before, but do not know if you saw my post. I totally agree. Basically Jack has killed before ~ when he didn't stop the others from "shooting" Jin, Bernard and Sayid. Jack wants off that island, Locke destroyed the sub, (how convenient for Ben was that little bit of madness!) and has demonstrated just how far he is willing to go to stop everyone from leaving. Jack's behavior (shooting Locke point blank) is totally in character at this point, and nicely sets up the alcoholic/nervous breakdown we have been witness to. Seriously, wouldn't Jack have had to be willing to demonstrate how much he wants to get himself and everyone off the island for any of that to make sense? Just a bit of validation. I cannot wait for next week!
BBFN

I am glad that Jack pulled the trigger, it shows his character's evolution (or deevolution as some put it) is continuing, but I'm also glad Locke wasn't killed. I want to see more confrontation between these 2, it's very entertaining.

Who booed Sawyer when he killed Tom? I thought it needed to be done, and am glad Sawyer did it. After all, Tom may come across as "friendly" at times but he was still cut throat. He was one of the ones who took Walt and blew up the raft leaving Jin, Sawyer and Michael to die, when all they wanted to do was leave. Was he one of the ones aboard Desmond's boat who shot at Sun? (Can't remember exactly who was part of that group). Not too mention he wanted to kill Sayid, Jin and Bernard even though Ben had told them not too. I certainly didn't boo Sawyer in this instance, I thought it was justified.

It also parallels, the whole event in "Saving Private Ryan" when they let the German POW go instead of kill him and then met him (supposedly) later on, and he ended up killing one of them. You never know when something might come back to haunt you.

There were actually a lot of folks who didn't like that Sawyer just shot Tom point blank. I'm thinking "the man said, 'You and me ain't finished, Zeke.' I think I know what that means!"

I was actually glad in the repeat episode of "Through the Looking Glass" Wednesday night, the captions pointed out that although Tom was "Friendly" he was not friendly and reminded everyone of the bad things he had done.

But I don't get the whole fan-base of the Others anyway. To me - they are the BAD GUYS. Periodl.

EXACTLY! Between TTLG and TBOTE Jack told Tom he was going to kill him Jack told KAte he was going to kill Ben and then Jack told Kate he was going to kill Locke! What is up with that? Then he went ahead and pulled the trigger! Overboard.Jack has shown a barbaric streak right from the beginning, and that streak is a mile wide, now. The show has always had a component of it's plot be about the Losties' downward spiral into barbarism, and the struggle against that spiral. Ever since the Others started showing up, the Losties, under Jack's leadership, have been far more ready to fight and kill than to talk and learn. It was only a matter of time before that fact intensified to the point where they would turn on eachother and end up in division.

As far as drama is concerned, though, I thought it was a great scene with great, almost comical timing. And it made perfect sense to me. Locke just didn't understand. Jack WOULD try to kill him. Well, he understands now.

It's interesting though because we see the weak Locke when he couldn't kill his father who fully deserved to die, and then we see a determined Locke kill Naomi for the good of the island. This would seem to go against his week character. Later when Jack punches him, he seems to have reverted back to a weak Locke, someone who didn't seem to be very confident.This makes sense to me. Everything Locke does, he does for the Island, or at least that's what he thinks. Killing Cooper was not of service to the island. Killing Naomi was. Killing Jack would not have been. Besides, he had a familial connection with Cooper. Ben's assignment that he kill Cooper was to make Locke jump through a hoop through which he couldn't jump. And indeed, he didn't. He has a personal connection with Jack. Although they are rivals and always have been, they haven't been mortal enemies, and they have been through a lot together, not the least of which was the plane crash itself. Whether they like it or not, they are two people within the same community, and that would have made it difficult for Locke to kill Jack. He had no connection with Naomi, and saw her has putting the Island itself in imminent danger. So she had to go.

This is a great discussion when considering the similarities and differences between Jack and Locke. One is the public, representative leader who tries to ensure the welfare of all using rational, acceptable thought. The other, a subversive (and possible) well-doer who relies on intuition and faith. I believe that in the hearts of both lies the best interests of all.

Interestingly, if you say Shepherd and John, no one knows who you're talking about. Say Jack and Locke...that's quite another matter. The way I see it, they are somehow the dichotomies of the same truth.

Jack has shown a barbaric streak right from the beginning, and that streak is a mile wide, now. The show has always had a component of it's plot be about the Losties' downward spiral into barbarism, and the struggle against that spiral. Ever since the Others started showing up, the Losties, under Jack's leadership, have been far more ready to fight and kill than to talk and learn. It was only a matter of time before that fact intensified to the point where they would turn on eachother and end up in division.

As far as drama is concerned, though, I thought it was a great scene with great, almost comical timing. And it made perfect sense to me. Locke just didn't understand. Jack WOULD try to kill him. Well, he understands now.

Jack pulling the trigger was the only logical conclusion to a series of actions on Jack's part, in recent episodes in particular. Three threats to kill to his name. Had he not followed through on one of them, having shown a brutal side in beating Ben, then the writers could well have been accused of jumping the shark.

This makes sense to me. Everything Locke does, he does for the Island, or at least that's what he thinks. Killing Cooper was not of service to the island. Killing Naomi was. Killing Jack would not have been. Besides, he had a familial connection with Cooper. Ben's assignment that he kill Cooper was to make Locke jump through a hoop through which he couldn't jump. And indeed, he didn't. He has a personal connection with Jack. Although they are rivals and always have been, they haven't been mortal enemies, and they have been through a lot together, not the least of which was the plane crash itself. Whether they like it or not, they are two people within the same community, and that would have made it difficult for Locke to kill Jack. He had no connection with Naomi, and saw her has putting the Island itself in imminent danger. So she had to go.

The same can be said of Locke in his flashback in Further Instructions. Locke couldn't bring himself to kill Eddie. He only has it in him to take down threats to the survivors. Mikhail was an example of this, although he lived.

Purplesky- I've been having a discussion in another thread where we touched on the different theories of human behaviour. The Man of Science v Man of Faith principle still holds true with Jack and Locke. Their goals are the same - to save people. Their methods and thought processes are the difference between them.

A request was made for a screen of the gun Locke picks up in the ditch...here it is:

http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage-1300-987.html

I don't know a thing about guns, but it looks fully loaded to me. I find it very strange that by the time Locke reaches the group and the whole scene with Jack goes down that there are no bullets. Why would he unload the gun? What's the point in carrying an unloaded gun, especially considering the fact that he feels the people on the freighter could be a threat to them? The only thing I can think is that he unloaded it before trying to get the phone from Jack...he never intended to shoot him, so why take the chance of accidentally killing him. But we know there was at least one bullet, since he did fire off a shot in Jack's direction. Too strange...

raspie - I'd requested a screencap, so thank you.

I want to add to the chorus saying this is a great thread--it is!

I have some more thoughts about this whole thing (it was so pivotal, wasn't it?).

From a dramatic standpoint, that Jack pulled the trigger rocked. No doubt about it, this is a game-changer, from a character and interpersonal standpoint. I read an interview with MF before the TBOTE, and I now see what he specifically meant when he said that the character of Jack Shephard had such depths to work with as are not normally offered to actors in TV (he was comparing his work on the show to that of his work on Party of Five--he was spot on, I watched that show here and there over a year, and it was just the same damn thing over and over with his character).

BUT, in terms of my moral compass, I go with those who say that killing outside of self-defense is never justified. When people say that Jack had to do it because Locke would've done anything he could to prevent people like Sun, who would die if she tried to carry her baby to term, from getting off the island, I wonder, what happened to tying people up to prevent them from action? I mean, Jack has no idea that Locke may have "special communion" with the island, has no idea that Locke has communicated with the fabled Jacob. Couldn't Jack just tie the bugger up? He didn't even attempt anything beyond a shot.

For all Jack knows, Locke is a guy who assigns mystical, touchy-feely, quasi-religious meanings to "ordinary" (ordinary, relative to the island's happenings) events. So to Jack, this guy's a flake, not a man with special powers--an annoying, dangerous man, yes, but a pretty much ordinary man. Jack doesn't even know that Locke was paralyzed and regained use of his legs.

So, putting aside what I said earlier about hubris, I just don't see an excuse for Jack's behavior, morally-speaking. Again, doesn't mean I don't think it rocks for the show, for the story, and for MF, but that it isn't morally excusable.

Great discussion and contributions!!!

:clapping:

Jack has known Locke's intentions all along, and he knew Locke was there to try and convince everyone to not get on that freighter. Jack was willing to kill one person for the sake of rescuing everyone else, just as Sayid was willing to give his own life to do so. I don't think it was a particularly evil thing for Jack to do. Shocking, yes, but not evil. Just look at the consequences of the unloaded gun...John's little speech worked again. So, at this point, it's become doubtful to Jack that everyone will be rescued. If he had killed John right there, everyone would have probably followed Jack despite the fact that he had killed Locke in cold blood like that. Now people are doubting.

To me, while Jack did obviously want Locke dead so badly that he fired instantly. Yet he can't of cared much, as if the first shot was empty, why didn't he pull the trigger over and over if it may have one loaded? Seems he at least did realise what he was doing at that point.

Jack has known Locke's intentions all along, and he knew Locke was there to try and convince everyone to not get on that freighter. Jack was willing to kill one person for the sake of rescuing everyone else, just as Sayid was willing to give his own life to do so.

That wouldn't justify cold-blooded murder. I know what you mean because you can see it in Jack's eyes earlier when Jack has the gun pointed at him: "You're done keeping me on this Island." I know why Jack is sick and tired of being on the Island and having to send people to their death or listen to his friends being executed and having to let it happen, etc. That burden is what makes him snap and he loses control over his own decency and his instincts, but there's no justifiable motive to shoot a man in the face.

Seems he at least did realise what he was doing at that point.

He did and it freaked him out. Hurley's speech brings him back, but more importantly, when he's mourning Charlie later by the cockpit and remembers who they were only three months ago when they first trekked there, he asks: "How did we get here?"

From a dramatic standpoint, that Jack pulled the trigger rocked. No doubt about it, this is a game-changer, from a character and interpersonal standpoint. I read an interview with MF before the TBOTE, and I now see what he specifically meant when he said that the character of Jack Shephard had such depths to work with as are not normally offered to actors in TV

It did rock and I'm very happy with this development. Jack's my favorite character and I'm glad to see he really is given this complex, tight story from beginning to end, no pit stops in between. I love it. And I love the Jack and Locke dichotomy and you know what? I missed it. I missed debating this and not Kate's love life (which is why for me, last season was a black hole of suckiness for a good while).

BUT, in terms of my moral compass, I go with those who say that killing outside of self-defense is never justified.

It's not. I'm glad there were no bullets not only because I need Locke and Jack to butt heads some more but because even though killing Locke like that would have made Jack go to that cockpit not just to mourn Charlie but to turn the gun on himself. I don't think Jack could have handled it.

cons have always been a humongous theme in Lost and I believe this is just another one. I think that John new Jack would pull his gun from him and he basically let Jack take it. If John hadnt wanted Jack to get it then Jack would never have been able to.

Why.......John wanted this to happen so the other Losties would see Jack's true colors and choose to go with him instead of Jack to the Barracks. John was able, with this simple con, to put doubt in the minds of most of the losties about jack and even though only about half decided to follow John, I think that all the losties view of Jack has been forever changed.

Unfortunately due to the PG nature of this board and the restrictions around the use of profanity it is impossible for me to express my true feelings regarding the character of Jack.


Took the words right out of my mouth. I think Locke was being very clever here, looking for sympathy and trying to undermine Jack's position as leader and gain favour, as he knew he had to convince as many as possible to come with him. Why else would the gun not be loaded.


He WAS still shocked that Jack pulled the trigger though.

If I was Jack after all Locke has done to murder people and stop rescue for his precious Island I would have pulled the trigger too.

Great thread, and some fantastic observations.

I thought that scene rocked, in terms of both actors' performances. And while I think Locke is an incredible character, and his absence would certainly detract from the show, I thought it was perfectly understandable for Jack to do what he did. That's the great thing about Lost, isn't it? You can understand character's motivations, even if you don't agree. If Jack hadn't tried making good on his assertion that he'd kill Locke, it would've become rather lame. I'm glad he pulled the trigger, though I was relieved Locke didn't die, because we need to see more of the confrontation between these two amazing characters, and how their dealings with each other will impact the overall show.
Just fantastic stuff, IMO.