Dharma has a scorpion station in the desert....perfect for that environment....

What was their deal with the polar bear there also?


ETA: I have since rewatched the video of the symbol and it is a hydra...sorry

Wasnt that a hydra symbol?

that was definitely a hyrda logo...blowing my mind...i know people will say thats in the future, but i bet thats evidence of early dharma before they left for the island...some secret base in the desert while they were planning.

Is this episode flash forwards? i took the flashes to be flash backs?

You are right....I rewound it...it is the hydra...sorry ...my mistake....

so each of those people were in search of Dharma.....with the exception of the other pilot how was in search of flight 815

That has to be one of the most mind-blowing revelations of the entire series. A Dharma Hydra station n th desert of Tunisia.

Side note about Tunisia -- served as the shooting locale for Tatooine in Star Wars.

diablo (and anyone else who is wondering)-

I think we can safely assume those were flashbacks. Naomi, and the rest of the team, apparently believed the survivors were dead when they came to the island. So I would guess that the moments in which they were first told they were dead (being the central part of each flashback) was in the past.

Was it a test station in the desert or the ruins of the Hydra station from the island?

Naomi didn't seem to think everyone was dead.

She almost looked like she expected to find that Dharma logo there though, didn't it?

yes charlotte did look like that symbol was supposed to be there...

I'm kind of wondering how long the polar bear survived... My guess is that it might have been left in the desert to see how capable it was of surviving there, in the same way it seems that polar bears were being adjusted to live in the jungle. So did the polar bear die naturally or from extreme hunger or dehydration?

Seems to me that Charlotte's FB revealed that the island lives in the past; it's a landmass that eventually became present-day Tunisia.

Seems to me that Charlotte's FB revealed that the island lives in the past; it's a landmass that eventually became present-day Tunisia.

I don't know about that. I think it did definitely have something to do with how time relates to the island... but if that were the case, wouldn't that make her bit a flashforward?

it was a hydra logo on a polar bear collar

All of the flashes were flashbacks. The logo was Hydra, and the Polar Bear had to have been dead for a while, and part of someone else's dig, remember she had to bribe the guy to allow her on the site. Time travel? or dimensional? Remember time is relative, something is only in the "past" in comparison to events that happen after, but those events take place in a location where time has no meaning...:kiss:

Seems to me that Charlotte's FB revealed that the island lives in the past; it's a landmass that eventually became present-day Tunisia.

I think you're on the right track. The Island, as we know it, and as the Losties (and whoever else is on it) experience it actually exists in the past. The outside world has far outpaced it in the stream of time. That means there should be other on-Island artifacts found as well. The question I have is what caused a polar bear with a collar to drop dead in it's tracks? The one Sawyer killed? The one Locke wasted in the cave?

I think you're on the right track. The Island, as we know it, and as the Losties (and whoever else is on it) experience it actually exists in the past. The outside world has far outpaced it in the stream of time. That means there should be other on-Island artifacts found as well. The question I have is what caused a polar bear with a collar to drop dead in it's tracks? The one Sawyer killed? The one Locke wasted in the cave?

Ahhh, now I understand what Bella meant. In that case, I think that's a pretty plausible explanation (or part of the explanation) for what the writers mean by time playing a big role in all of this. About the polar bear- I'm not sure, but I'm thinking we saw a closeup of the bear's neck/shoulders after Sawyer shot it. Don't remember a collar. It'll be interesting to go back and see if that's there, though!

Tunisia was never surrounded by water. It was part of Pangea:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/90/Pangea_pl_gi_ubt.png/533px-Pangea_pl_gi_ubt.png

(North Africa)

Unless the island existed 250 - 300 million years before that, but it still wouldn't be under water then either. If it was part of pangea, they would have to dig deeper than a few feet in the desert, and the bones would be petrified rock and a darker brown, not bone white.

As someone else said. Yemi's plane ended up on the island in an inexplicable manner, and I think the polar bear ending up in Tunisia is the same thing. Either that, or he was placed there.

Ahhh, now I understand what Bella meant. In that case, I think that's a pretty plausible explanation (or part of the explanation) for what the writers mean by time playing a big role in all of this. About the polar bear- I'm not sure, but I'm thinking we saw a closeup of the bear's neck/shoulders after Sawyer shot it. Don't remember a collar. It'll be interesting to go back and see if that's there, though!

I think the collar on the polar bear is a continuity error brought into to tell a new part of the story.

My first thought was a combination of teleportation and time travel of some sort, like something we saw in the Orchid Station dharma video....

This is one of my favorite episodes ever and I can't wait to watch it again! As soon as they found the fossils, I thought "polar bear!"

i think the poar bear in the desert with a dharma collar is in reference to the "orchid video" which was released after season 4. don't forget, it was a polar bear FOSSIL, so it was not only out of place, but out of it's time as well. imo it's the result of a botched dharma experiment.

I think the collar on the polar bear is a continuity error brought into to tell a new part of the story.

Possibly. But wouldn't it be easier and look better for TPTB to simply say this was another polar bear that was there on the island? Assuming the above theories about it being in the past are true.

A fossil wouldn't have a leather collar with unrusted rivets holding on the Dharma logo. If it was frozen in ice, yeah, thats possible. but obviously it isn't.

Here's the Lostpedia article on polar bears:

http://www.lostpedia.com/wiki/Polar_bears

Notice the part about the DI experiments designed to modify a species to live in an non-native environment. Notice also that the polar bears on the Island were released during the Purge.

Unless the island existed 250 - 300 million years before that, but it still wouldn't be under water then either. If it was part of pangea, they would have to dig deeper than a few feet in the desert, and the bones would be petrified rock and a darker brown, not bone white.

Thanks for pointing this out. Also, Charlotte said that the polar bear was a couple of million years too late for the dinosaurs, and they were around after Pangea broke up.

Really, in the middle of the desert, I'd imagine that an animal carcass could get covered up with a foot of sand and dirt relatively quickly. Maybe a few years? A few decades?

Even with all the great character development and the new characters (all expertly done, of course) the Dharma polar bear burried in the desert is what stuck with me the most.

Don't most things that die in the desert mummify due to the dry conditions? Just asking. Not speculating anything....yet.

This Tunisia sequence reminded me of:

1. The opening of Stargate (the movie)
2. The opening of Close Encounters of the Third Kind

Not that I'm giving any significance to these. Just an observation.

Naomi didn't seem to think everyone was dead.
Actually she and Abaddon seemed to know that they weren't.
She almost looked like she expected to find that Dharma logo there though, didn't it?

yes charlotte did look like that symbol was supposed to be there...

No doubt that Charlotte was NOT surprised, or puzzled to find the polar bear or the dharma logo with it. The only thing she was finding hard to believe was that the wreckage of 815 had been found.

Here's the Lostpedia article on polar bears:

http://www.lostpedia.com/wiki/Polar_bears

Notice the part about the DI experiments designed to modify a species to live in an non-native environment. Notice also that the polar bears on the Island were released during the Purge.

Makes sense to me. I don't think the reason for a polar bear (intact skeleton as it appeared) being in the desert should be any different than it being on an island.

Just to clarify a point someone made -- the polar bear that Locke fried in "Further Instructions" did not die. So as far as we know there is only one dead polar bear on the island and one living.

My first thought was a combination of teleportation and time travel of some sort, like something we saw in the Orchid Station dharma video....

This is one of my favorite episodes ever and I can't wait to watch it again! As soon as they found the fossils, I thought "polar bear!"

I agree, it has to have something to do with a teleportation experiment.

Just to clarify a point someone made -- the polar bear that Locke fried in "Further Instructions" did not die. So as far as we know there is only one dead polar bear on the island and one living.

Darlton did say in the S3 Blu Ray Extras, that 2 polar bears could make more polar bears....;)

I agree, it has to have something to do with a teleportation experiment.

This would make sense too. Maybe the Others were experimenting on alternative ways to get off the island. Obviously they aren't just taking the submarine on and off, because they drugged Juliet before she came because it was "a bumpy ride".

I'm in the teleportation camp right now. Either that, or the bear was simply placed there.

But teleportation also makes sense with Yemi's african plane somehow making it onto the island, as well as the african slave trading boat. Africa, Africa, Africa.

I think that Charlotte might possibly be studying the Dharma initiative. She might have been investigating an old dharma sight, and her interest in 815 might be because she somehow knows about the island and how dharma lost it. The hydra emblem is interesting- perhaps all their tests on animals were a part of a hydra project.

I don't think Tunisia is the island, since Tunisia never was an island. I think teleporation is an option, since locke's dad possibly teleported to the island. Even Charlie's communication with Penny makes me think the Island isn't existing in the ancient past.

My first thought was a combination of teleportation and time travel of some sort, like something we saw in the Orchid Station dharma video....

This is one of my favorite episodes ever and I can't wait to watch it again! As soon as they found the fossils, I thought "polar bear!"

Good to see you again, Sick =]

Bedlam in Goliath made it all the way to # 3 this week.

As someone else said. Yemi's plane ended up on the island in an inexplicable manner, and I think the polar bear ending up in Tunisia is the same thing. Either that, or he was placed there.

Here's the Lostpedia article on polar bears:

http://www.lostpedia.com/wiki/Polar_bears

Notice the part about the DI experiments designed to modify a species to live in an non-native environment. Notice also that the polar bears on the Island were released during the Purge.

Tunisia is not far from one of the vile vortices in Africa. Maybe that's how the polar bear ended up there. Maybe that's one way off the island. Poor polar bear...

My first impression was the different time-line bit. Additionally, it could explain how Naomi has a picture of Desmond. That is, perhaps the dig continue to uncover more artifacts from the Island time-line; namely, Desmond's book w/ the picture.

Also, I don't think the Pangea fact is fatal because Pangea is a techtonic fact in our timeline, not necessariliy an alternate time-line. Thus, there could be points of contact between two time-lines on the same global surface.

...
No doubt that Charlotte was NOT surprised, or puzzled to find the polar bear or the dharma logo with it. The only thing she was finding hard to believe was that the wreckage of 815 had been found. She seemed eager - like she was proving a theory or something.

Just to clarify a point someone made -- the polar bear that Locke fried in "Further Instructions" did not die. So as far as we know there is only one dead polar bear on the island and one living.

You're right, Eight. We now have a polar bear running around the Island that's reminiscent of the bear in the movie The Great Outdoors! :lol:

She seemed eager - like she was proving a theory or something.

Exactly. Why wouldn't I want to know? *smiles*

I am leaning towards the polar bear skeleton being from the bear Sawyer shot! However that can be explained. just a feeling...

That statement Ben made way back in season 2 I think: 'God can't see this island' is a big hint to the show IMHO.

Tunisia seems to be on the opposite side of the Earth from the coordinates of the plane crash(-4.815° -162.342°). So maybe there's a Bermuda Triangle type door from one side of the globe to the other.

Just an idea. Don't quote me on this.

I'm expecting a very cool moment when/if Charlotte runs across one of the Island's living Polar Bears.... ;)

I loved the look on her face when she was hanging upside down....she didn't say anything but I totally got the impression that whatever she was believing in had just come true. It all came across as a cool vibe...

:cool:

A fossil wouldn't have a leather collar with unrusted rivets holding on the Dharma logo. If it was frozen in ice, yeah, thats possible. but obviously it isn't.

Was that a fossil? I'm not up on my terminology. I thought a fossil was an impression left in rock, not actual bone itself.

I still think the show will be able to be explained without time travel; at least, not time travel in the traditional sense.

Good to see you again, Sick =]

Bedlam in Goliath made it all the way to # 3 this week.

Good to see you too! That's great, and the album totally deserves to sell well. I was disappointed when I went to a bar last night and attempted to use the jukebox to play "ilyena" and couldn't find it with the search feature. Hopefully it will be possible in the future!

I think we are going to find that there were Dharma stations in places other than the island. Whatever electromagnetic force that is/was on the island could also have been in other places in the world.

Could Penny have possibly been at a Dharma station at the end of Season 2?

Was that a fossil? I'm not up on my terminology. I thought a fossil was an impression left in rock, not actual bone itself.

I still think the show will be able to be explained without time travel; at least, not time travel in the traditional sense.

This is totally correct. Fossils are rock, scraped and chipped out of more rock.


These were actual bones in dirt. The dig was not all that old.
Added to this, we look at what a previous poster mentioned; the fact that there was a leather collar with unrusted rivets around the bear's neck. I'd add that the leather wasn't old and cracked, as we'd expect from a long stay in the desert. The dig was not all that old.
The blast door map has a mention of introducing a modified polar bear (the map used the Latin name for the species) to the island. It would seem to me that if one were breeding a bunch of Polar Bears to survive in a climate where they'd normally die, they'd first test out their results in a place that has hot enough temperatures but is a little more accessible than the island -- Tunisia, for example...From all this, I'd be more likely to suspect that Charlotte is someone who's been researching a mysterious cult called the Dharma Initiative (I believe Ben said she was an anthropologist; not an archaeologist, so this would be perfectly consistent...) and a report of a discovery of something that sounded like off-island Dharma activity would likely bring her running. This is likely an abandoned Dharma facility that was breeding Polar Bears for eventual research in the Hydra station. It would interest Charlotte.

How long would it take for the Tunisian sun/location to wipe out the remains of a polar bear like that? Anyone know? Just wondering how long it might have been there until it was discovered.

Side note: Charlotte really didn't look surprised at all to be finding that Dharma collar did she?

This Tunisia sequence reminded me of:

1. The opening of Stargate (the movie)
2. The opening of Close Encounters of the Third Kind

Not that I'm giving any significance to these. Just an observation.


What about, oh, I dunno... STAR WARS
100%
I just have to say that archaeologists *ARE* anthropologists!

I took an archaeology class in college (two actually) and they were both in the
anthropology department. Consider archaeology to be a sort of specialty that some
anthropologists practice.

When they mentioned she was an anthropologist I immediately thought of the 3-toed
statue.

What about, oh, I dunno... STAR WARS

Not that I think there's anything to this... but what this desert/archeological flashback reminded ME of was... the Exorcist.
100%
There is a thread from last week's episode theorizing about how the Island might be somehow connected w/ the North Pole (it is called Ho, Ho, Ho something-or-other - go read it if you haven't, it is really quite an interesting theory). Eventually someone mentioned something called the "vile vortices" - a number of locations around the globe that allegedly have weird, Bermuda-triangle-esque qualities. (The Bermuda triangle is one of them, in fact). Anyway, one of the vortices also seems to cover the part of North Africa that includes Tunisia. Maybe Dharma uses these vortices for some sort of telekinetic secret-passageways around the globe? Might explain how they get back and forth to places like Canada, Portland, and Tallahassee.

I just have to say that archaeologists *ARE* anthropologists!

I took an archaeology class in college (two actually) and they were both in the
anthropology department. Consider archaeology to be a sort of specialty that some
anthropologists practice.

When they mentioned she was an anthropologist I immediately thought of the 3-toed
statue.

But anthropologists are not necessarily archaeologists -- especially a Cultural Anthropologist, as Ben said Charlotte was. I'll repeat that Charlotte's research may very well have involved studying the inner workings of the "Dharma Initiative Cult." Peple who look at the dig we saw in "Confirmed Dead" and are claiming that it must be a bunch of ancient ruins are making some huge presumptions they cannot justify...

How long would it take for the Tunisian sun/location to wipe out the remains of a polar bear like that? Anyone know? Just wondering how long it might have been there until it was discovered.

Don't know the answer. But I do think it was a nod both to Close Encounters of the Third Kind [where the WWII planes are found in the desert] and to Star Wars.

Also just want to point out that in the Lost Experience, Dharma had research posts activities in Africa too. But as for the polar bear, I'm on board with the idea that there was some sort of teleportation or mirror-polar bear scenario that will make sense to us later.

And I'm also open to the vile vortices idea, I've thought for a while that the sub and the airport in Miami Juliette left from are ruses. We never actually saw any planes, and the windows in the waiting lounge looked like plasma displays. Alpert sure gets around from the mainland to the island quick too.

From all this, I'd be more likely to suspect that Charlotte is someone who's been researching a mysterious cult called the Dharma Initiative (I believe Ben said she was an anthropologist; not an archaeologist, so this would be perfectly consistent...) and a report of a discovery of something that sounded like off-island Dharma activity would likely bring her running. This is likely an abandoned Dharma facility that was breeding Polar Bears for eventual research in the Hydra station. It would interest Charlotte.

Another possibility is that Charlotte works for whoever is left of DHARMA or people looking for DHARMA or someone wanting to re-create DHARMA and was told to go to Tunisia to get the collar to cover up evidence of their involvement with the polar bear (that would be a hard thing to explain!). That could also explain why she was on the freighter team - if someone from DHARMA still exists then they would definitely be interested in getting Ben since he was responsible for the purge of their people on the island.

I just wanted to add here that I believe it's teleportation because of the condition of the remains. Also, I think that if the writers wanted to suggest there was a DHARMA station in Tunisia then they'd have had Charlotte stumble upon that and not simply a polar bear.

More specifically, I think it's teleportation of a clone (the "bad twin"?) -- the original stays on the island.

Another possibility is that Charlotte works for whoever is left of DHARMA or people looking for DHARMA or someone wanting to re-create DHARMA and was told to go to Tunisia to get the collar to cover up evidence of their involvement with the polar bear (that would be a hard thing to explain!). That could also explain why she was on the freighter team - if someone from DHARMA still exists then they would definitely be interested in getting Ben since he was responsible for the purge of their people on the island.

It would also explain that wad of cash she gave to the French dude who was trying to stop her from getting to the site. Whoever she's associated with it appears she's well financed.

I agree - I saw the polar bear skeleton as evidence supporting the wormhole and vile vortices theories.

I think it is clear that one of Charlotte's goals is to determine whether the polar bear in Tunisia is related to polar bears on the island.

Toward that end I would submit this - that the polar bear in Tunisia was the same age as the bears on the island - perhaps the same litter. And Dharma separated the bear in Tunisia to see or quantify the effects of anti-aging that the island had!

The bear in Tunisia was the control, and it is long dead. If Charlotte can prove that the island bears were born around the same time - we have concrete proof about the speed of aging on Lost Island.

Hmmm. that's a neat idea. I like it.

I think that the polar bear was brought to the desert from the hydra (some would say transported), I just dont know how. A polar bear in the desert is not normal, experiments by Dharma may be key.


"dude, you got some Arzt on you"

I think it is clear that one of Charlotte's goals is to determine whether the polar bear in Tunisia is related to polar bears on the island.

Toward that end I would submit this - that the polar bear in Tunisia was the same age as the bears on the island - perhaps the same litter. And Dharma separated the bear in Tunisia to see or quantify the effects of anti-aging that the island had!

The bear in Tunisia was the control, and it is long dead. If Charlotte can prove that the island bears were born around the same time - we have concrete proof about the speed of aging on Lost Island.

Not a bad idea, but for a "control" you would have to have the polar bear in the same conditions as the "test" polar bears minus the one factor you want to study. You would want the same conditions for each the "test" and "control" subjects so the environment wouldn't be the cause for their growth or aging differences. Tropical Island and Desert aren't the same conditions.Because the desert is dry, with very little rain, who's to say the possible aging discrepancy wouldn't be due to lots of rain vs little rain? Sorry, just my scientific nature coming through.:)

I don't know why they chose Tunisia for the control bear. But one thing I do know - the bear in Tunisia as an experimental control beats teleportation as a theory.

Looks like Tunisia is exactly on the opposite side of the earth from where the island might be... I don't think it's time travel... space travel to the furthest point??

Seems highly odd, considering either on or off island, how many other polar bears would there be running about in hot climates? Not exactly gonna mix it up with the neighbours polar bear are you? Seems like it was just a plot device to show Dharma's research off island, as we never saw collars being found on the other island polar bears.

It's Tunisian law.

seriously, that was the wierdest thing in this episode..i was like, "are you kidding me!!"

That has to be one of the most mind-blowing revelations of the entire series. A Dharma Hydra station n th desert of Tunisia.

Side note about Tunisia -- served as the shooting locale for Tatooine in Star Wars.

It doesn't mean that the Hydra Station was also in the dessert but that a Polar Bear from the Hydra Station was relocated to the Dessert for some other experiment.

Fossils are the remains of creatures which existed long ago. Fossils range from thousands of years to many millions of years in age. The earliest fossils date from around 600 million years ago, however recent reports suggest bacteria may have existed up to 3 billion years earlier. To put this in context, the dinosaurs became extinct just 65 million years ago.

Not all former life was preserved as fossils, in fact the vast majority simply vanished without trace. The most likely materials to survive fossilisation are the hard parts such as shells and objects which in life were constructed from resistant materials, such as Coral. In order for softer materials to survive, the conditions must be extremely favourable.


Fossils include bones as well.

I don't know why they chose Tunisia for the control bear. But one thing I do know - the bear in Tunisia as an experimental control beats teleportation as a theory.

Or, the bear in Tunisia was simply one of the bears Dharma was breeding for the warmer temperastures of the island, and it simply died before it could be shipped there. The reason it was buried is because the carcass started getting a little smelly...

Thus far, I don't believe we've seen any 'evidence' of teleportation. After all, what 'evidence' can there be? All we've seen is that a polar bear skeleton was found in the Tunisian desert wearing (or perhaps not) a DHARMA Hydra collar.

We can't assume anything about the age of the skeleton based on un-rusted rivets in the collar because that assumes that TPTB would go to those lengths to give us hints and would take that into account. History has shown that they are lazy when it comes to tiny details like that, and the show is overflowing with continuity errors like that. It MAY be a hint, but I wouldn't bet on it. They simply can't think of everything.

Let's look at things we can be relatively sure of:

1) Charlotte was VERY interested in the discovery of 815. We don't know why.
2) Charlotte had to pay her way onto the site.
3) Charlotte had a LOT of money (well, we don't know this, as I am unfamiliar with their currency and just how much she paid him, but TPTB employed a familiar "huge wad of cash" visual to, IMO, signify that she was passing a lot of money to the guy at the site.
4) Charlotte ignored the rest of the skeleton and immediately dug under the head. She was looking in that specific spot. She was looking for something, and judging by her face, she found what she was looking for. Therefor, it is safe to assume that she was looking for a DHARMA collar.

Based on that, I think it's logical to assume that Charlotte had prior knowledge of the DHARMA group, and their use of Polar Bears. She knew to look for a collar. She obviously travelled to this specific site to search for DHARMA paraphernalia.

My interpretation of all this is as follows:

Charlotte learned that someone unearthed a poloar bear in the middle of the Tunisian desert. She could have learned this on her own, or she was informed of this by an 'employer' of some sorts. Either way, she immediately was either sent off or departed on her own to the site, as this seemed to have a DHARMA feel to it. She went there to verify that it was indeed a DHARMA bear.

I don't think we can make ANY assumptions on how the bear got to where it was. There are numerous possibilities. The bear could have been transported from the Hydra station on the island to the Tunisian desert to see how it would survive in the desert (my personal opinion) by the DHARMA folks. After all, we do know that they were studying polar bears living in non-natural environments. So I don't think it's a great leap to conclude that they simply chose a remote desert to move one of the polar bears to in order to study the effects.

The polar bear could have also been 'teleported' there, I suppose, but we've seen no concrete evidence of anyone teleporting anywhere in this show, so I don't think that's anything more than unsubstantiated theorizing by fans.

The bear could have also been part of a second Hydra station in Tunisia. DHARMA may have had all kinds of stations in all sorts of 'special' places around the globe.

Anyway, I just don't think there's any reason or basis to assume this was time travel or teleportation. Yet.

Someone mentioned, in other threads as well, that the Polar Bear was transported to Africa via the viral vortice. I think once the others took over the island they released the animals from the Hydra station and one of the Bears escaped the island and swam through a viral vortice thus ending up near Africa. Made land and died shortly thereafter.

That explanation makes the most sense to me after further consideration (since Thursday.) There's no proof that the DI had any facilities elsewhere in the world (doesn't mean they didn't we just haven't seen it.) And I don't think just becasue there's a bear carcass in Tunisia that it automatically implies time travel like some threads suggest.

Someone mentioned, in other threads as well, that the Polar Bear was transported to Africa via the viral vortice. I think once the others took over the island they released the animals from the Hydra station and one of the Bears escaped the island and swam through a viral vortice thus ending up near Africa. Made land and died shortly thereafter.

That explanation makes the most sense to me after further consideration (since Thursday.) There's no proof that the DI had any facilities elsewhere in the world (doesn't mean they didn't we just haven't seen it.) And I don't think just becasue there's a bear carcass in Tunisia that it automatically implies time travel like some threads suggest.


That is a good one! After all they kind of shown to us that Dharma polar bears were pretty good at swimming since they reached the main island from the Hydra.
Now, did they swim towards the 325 bearing?;)
Now, that would kind of go along with my 1-in, 1-out Portal theory...
It seems Polar Bears are also capable of magnetoreception, so they might be attracted to the island's magnetic pole. Therefore, a stranded polar bear that escaped the Hydra might have swam off the island's snowglobe like Michael and Walt did.
Now, if this exit is in the Indian Ocean, like my theory suggests, it seems like a way too long distance for a polar bear to swim until reaching tunisia?

Anyways, I'd like to point out to another theory based on hints from FIND 815:
the island might be close to Santorini. This is pretty close to Tunisia.
It would be worth noticing that Egypt is pretty close to Tunisia and closer to where this theory says the island or an entrance to it might be...And let's not forget that it has been suggested tha the island might have Egyptian connections....

Someone mentioned, in other threads as well, that the Polar Bear was transported to Africa via the viral vortice. I think once the others took over the island they released the animals from the Hydra station and one of the Bears escaped the island and swam through a viral vortice thus ending up near Africa. Made land and died shortly thereafter.

That explanation makes the most sense to me after further consideration (since Thursday.) There's no proof that the DI had any facilities elsewhere in the world (doesn't mean they didn't we just haven't seen it.) And I don't think just becasue there's a bear carcass in Tunisia that it automatically implies time travel like some threads suggest.


We haven't seen a Viral Vortice anywhere in the show, either, have we? What makes people so certain these are even a part of this show? Am I missing something? Clearly I am. I've been out of it for a while.

So far I haven't seen this question addressed: Why would a polar bear be wearing a collar? Could the collar be the portal to a different time period, but only works when worn on the island? Perhaps this is why Charlotte has come to the island.

We haven't seen a Viral Vortice anywhere in the show, either, have we? What makes people so certain these are even a part of this show? Am I missing something? Clearly I am. I've been out of it for a while.

I'm with you. I think people are just too quick to take any tiny bit of evidence (or even lack of evidence in this case) and run wild with it on here. There's a slight possibility of the teleportation theory because of that Orchid video, but there hasn't been anything else remotely tied to teleportation, wormholes, viral vortices (what the hell?) on the show at all.

The most likely explanation is that there was simply DHARMA research going on elsewhere in the world, and Charlotte was following the trail of it.

So far I haven't seen this question addressed: Why would a polar bear be wearing a collar? Could the collar be the portal to a different time period, but only works when worn on the island? Perhaps this is why Charlotte has come to the island.


I assume it would be for identification purposes, not some magical talisman. You know, like dogs wear collars.

There's a slight possibility of the teleportation theory because of that Orchid video, but there hasn't been anything else remotely tied to teleportation, wormholes, viral vortices (what the hell?) on the show at all.
The polar bear had the hydra logo on his collar. Polar bears are good swimmers, but not that good. Add to the the beach craft that made a similar unexplained journey across the globe in the other direction, and Locke's father doing likewise, you have more than a little evidence for some kind of teleportation going on.

The polar bear had the hydra logo on his collar. Polar bears are good swimmers, but not that good. Add to the the beach craft that made a similar unexplained journey across the globe in the other direction, and Locke's father doing likewise, you have more than a little evidence for some kind of teleportation going on.

The polar bear could have just as easily (and much more plausibly) been transported there. Why do people assume that this bear originated on the island? Sure, it's possible, but it's also possible that there are two Hyrda stations, or that the bear was simply relocated by normal means.

The beach craft we don't know about. There's no 'evidence' of teleporting, there's simply no evidence of anything. That doesn't mean it teleported.

Locke's father (correct me if I'm mis-remembering) got into some sort of auto accident and blacked out, in the ambulance and woke up on the island, yes? Isn't it possible that he was drugged and brought to the island? Why is teleportation the only option here?

You can't say that those three things 'add up' to evidence. There is no evidence of teleportation. Just because we don't know how these things got to where they are does not indicate teleportation.

It *could* be teleportation, but there's no evidence of it at all.

^^^ What he said.
None of those things are evidence of teleportation.

I had always assumed Cooper was brought to the island on the sub, just like the Others bring everyone else.

The polar bear's collar is insignificant -- I mean what, are those collars only manufactured on the island and not allowed to leave? No, the collars were brought to the island with the polar bears and everything else. So they just as easily could've been brought to Africa or anywhere else Dharma wanted to do research.

I think people are just too quick to take any tiny bit of evidence (or even lack of evidence in this case) and run wild with it on here...

The most likely explanation is that there was simply DHARMA research going on elsewhere in the world, and Charlotte was following the trail of it.

Well, I think people have cited quite a bit of evidence (albeit circumstantial) supporting some of these ideas. And the fact is, most of the theories about this show are built upon very little, or circumstantial evidence. If you have something to refute these theories, by all means, lets debate them on their merits or demerits. But blanket statements dismissing some pretty common theories on the 'Lage don't advance the discussion in any productive way. All it does is rain on the parade of the people who have fun brainstorming about the possibilities this show provides.

Besides, on a Science Fiction show that includes an invisible island with accelerated healing properties, a bunch of people who are supposed to be dead on the bottom of the ocean, apparitions of dead people, and a cabin that jumps around the island, I don't think DHARMA reasearch going on elsewhere in the world is a likely explanation, much less the MOST likely explanation. There's less evidence for this than the theories you dismissed. We've seen absolutely nothing to indicate an off island DHARMA presence, where as we've seen all sorts of examples of things being where they don't belong.

^^^ What he said.
None of those things are evidence of teleportation.


I also see no evidence of teleportation or any of the other exotic stuff. Rather than make the story extra-complex without the need to be, why not look for the simpler solution? (Search on the phrase "Occam's Razor" or "Ockham's Razor".)

We saw in TLE that Dharma(Hanso?) had at least one station in North Africa.
We'd expect that the first Polar Bears on the island were brought there from some outside breeding program, and the blast door map mentions using "gene therapy" to adapt the bears to the island.
As complicated as it would seem to ship things to the island, we'd expect they'd make sure the bears had adapted properly before actually _shipping_ them there.
It's conceivable that a bear, all tagged with its Dharma collar and ready to be shipped, died and was buried on the station grounds.Does it really _have_ to be more complicated than this, or maybe some people just need lots of sciFi paraphernalia in a story before they can watch it? I mean, there is sciFi stuff in the show, but they seem to have only added it in where it was needed.

Well, I think people have cited quite a bit of evidence (albeit circumstantial) supporting some of these ideas. And the fact is, most of the theories about this show are built upon very little, or circumstantial evidence. If you have something to refute these theories, by all means, lets debate them on their merits or demerits. But blanket statements dismissing some pretty common theories on the 'Lage don't advance the discussion in any productive way. All it does is rain on the parade of the people who have fun brainstorming about the possibilities this show provides. Fair enough, but you also can't judge a theory by how "common" it is on the 'lage. Simply because it is common does not in any way give it any more credibility.

Besides, on a Science Fiction show that includes an invisible island with accelerated healing properties, a bunch of people who are supposed to be dead on the bottom of the ocean, apparitions of dead people, and a cabin that jumps around the island, I don't think DHARMA reasearch going on elsewhere in the world is a likely explanation, much less the MOST likely explanation. There's less evidence for this than the theories you dismissed. We've seen absolutely nothing to indicate an off island DHARMA presence, where as we've seen all sorts of examples of things being where they don't belong. Except that we DO know DHARMA has an off-island presence. Or at least they did. DHARMA was not started on that island.

I assume it would be for identification purposes, not some magical talisman. You know, like dogs wear collars.
Of course yours is the obvious answer. But do zoos or animal parks collar their bears or larger animals for identification purposes? Generally, aren't they tagged differently, or are these bears from a time when collars were commonly used?

Teleportation and everything else seems to be getting complicated. Has anyone ever heard of Occam's razor? The explanation of any of these events should make as few assumptions as possible. And usually the simplest explanation is the right one.

Now what that is, I have no dang idea yet!!

Teleportation and everything else seems to be getting complicated. Has anyone ever heard of Occam's razor? The explanation of any of these events should make as few assumptions as possible. And usually the simplest explanation is the right one.

Now what that is, I have no dang idea yet!!

I have a feeling that Occam's Razor is another of those natural laws that don't work the same way on the island.

I have a feeling that Occam's Razor is another of those natural laws that don't work the same way on the island.


So it's always the most complicated explanation instead? Should we name this Lost's Razor? :)

Fair enough, but you also can't judge a theory by how "common" it is on the 'lage. Simply because it is common does not in any way give it any more credibility.

My point was that simply dismissing those common theories ignores the fact that they have been discussed at length with plenty of reasons and evidence (again, as circumstantial as it may be...). I wasn't intending to give creedence to any theory, only to point out that the manner of discussion wasn't productive, or, essentially, if all one can do it dismiss an idea without actually debating it as presented, one should simply not participate in that line of discussion.

Except that we DO know DHARMA has an off-island presence. Or at least
they did. DHARMA was not started on that island.

We saw in TLE that Dharma(Hanso?) had at least one station in North Africa.


Well, we know someone from off the island (possibly Hanso) had to start Dharma. What I was meaning was that DHARMA as an organization, the subsidary of whoever controlled it, didn't exists and operate as DHARMA off the island as far as we know, ie actual DHARMA research stations in North Africa. As far as we know, all research done in the name of DHARMA happens on the island. Besides, the polar bear didn't just have a DHARMA collar. It had a HYDRA STATION collar on. We know the HYDRA is on the island. (Well, Alcatraz, but let's not split hairs here.)

I also see no evidence of teleportation or any of the other exotic stuff. Rather than make the story extra-complex without the need to be, why not look for the simpler solution? (Search on the phrase "Occam's Razor" or "Ockham's Razor".)

Well, again, the evidence of teleportation has been laid out in this and many other threads from past seasons. If you don't agree with the conclusion, that's fine, man, but don't deny the connections other people have put together. As for "any of the other exotic stuff"...well, beyond the list in my previous post, there's also smokey, the whispers, the connections between the losties, Hurley seeing dead Charlie, etc. that all seems like pretty "exotic" stuff. Not to mention that TPTB refer to the show as "SciFi", none of which is "sciFi Propaganda". lol

Finally, and I refuse say anything on this subject other than this one paragraph, you, like many people, are misunderstanding and misapplying Occam's Razor. You've been here longer than me, so you are probably already aware, but this has been debated ad nauseam on this board, and I'm not going to elaborate here. If you want to know how you're misapplying it, do a search for it.

Great Post Everyone!!! I have really enjoyed reading all the posts in this thread. My two cents is leaning toward the teleportation/vile vortices theory mixed with the Casimer Effect/Orchid experiment. What if Dharma were doing dual experiments on the Polar bears??? The Latin name for "polar bear", Ursus maritimus, was shown on the blast door map (http://www.lostpedia.com/wiki/Blast_Door_Map_Notations). The direct quotation is STATED GOAL, REPATRIATION ACCELERATED DE-TERRITORIALIZATION OF URSUS MARITIMUS THROUGH GENE THERAPY AND EXTREME climate change, implying that the bears were involved in experimentation of some kind. My guess is that the first stage of the Polar bear experiments involved the gene therapy and extreme climate change, possibly taking place at the Hydra station (the Hydra collar around the skeleton's neck). The second stage of the experiment would involve releasing the Polar bears into different environments, through the Orchid/Casimer effect experiment. Which was possibly teleporting the bears to different vile/vortices where Dharma might already have stations/posts. (Like Africa, North/South poles???) Charlotte's reaction to the Hydra collar on the bear, seemed like, We Did It!!! We sent one back!!! Just my guess :biggrin:.

Well, again, the evidence of teleportation has been laid out in this and many other threads from past seasons. If you don't agree with the conclusion, that's fine, man, but don't deny the connections other people have put together. As for "any of the other exotic stuff"...well, beyond the list in my previous post, there's also smokey, the whispers, the connections between the losties, Hurley seeing dead Charlie, etc. that all seems like pretty "exotic" stuff. Not to mention that TPTB refer to the show as "SciFi", none of which is "sciFi Propaganda". lol


I guess I have to object to this. I don't mind responding to things I said, but I take exception to being asked to answer to things I didn't say.

There was no "denying" the connections other people have put together -- how do you deny that someone said something? I'm just providing an an honest rebuttal, which happens to include some connections that _I've_ put together, and I think that my ideas belong in the mix, too...

It's entirely possible that the writers have some yet-as-undisclosed reason to add in all the exotic stuff proposed here, but in the end, they'll have to explain it all to some audience that may never watch the sciFi channel and whose reading of comic books probably never went beyond "Archie," when they were very young kids.

Consider that the writers have never stopped the steady flow of the story to give any explanation longer than the small bits dropped in an orientation film, and that even those are incredibly rare. When formulating a theory it doesn't hurt to think how the writers would have to explain it all to the segment of the audience that prefers "Dancing With The Stars" to "Battlestar Gallactica."

While this doesn't prove anything and is not intended to do so, it gives some food for thought when formulating our theories. We may choose to use it or not. I have to say that I'm surprised at how many people choose the "not," but that's their own business.

As far as there being sciFi stuff in the show, of course there is. It happens that I did mention that in my post, but you seen to have edited that out... There are some such elements in the story, but I fail to see why this would mean that there must be yet another exotic sciFi element thrown in to explain every mystery. Could there be another sciFi element to explain the bear? Of course. Yet, when there's a completely rational explanation that requires no exotic sciFi paraphernalia to explain it, shouldn't it also be given some consideration? Double of course.

Consider that Occam's Razor is not a law of the universe that must be satisfied, but a guideline that deals with the normal human tendency to make things more complicated than they need to be. That doesn't mean that there won't be times when The Real Answer isn't the more complex one; it just means that in so many facets of life, over time, the complex explanations don't do as well as the simpler ones. If you want to choose an explanation that's overly complex over a simple one, just make a quick check of how lucky you feel today and then go for it. You don't need my or anyone's permission, but expect to have to deal with some sincere surprise on others' part.

Because pointing out unexpected complexity is a reasonable part of the debate, and it won't go away...

Charlotte obviously knew what she was looking for, when she digged out the collar.

She also knew there's more to the flight 815 story than others did, because she wanted to see the news over and over again.

The Hydra is located in the island, thus the Polarbear came from there. Via teleportation, dime distortion or whatnot, that is not that important. The fact it did, is.

Charlotte has not been on the island before. I believe she was hired due to her achievements, just like Juliet was. The only difference she was hired by the bad guys (Abaddon's team). They tell her about the island and it's possibilities, and they throw her few bones to get excited, just like the ones in the desert. After convincing her, she decides to go along.

Is there any possibility that Charlotte's flashback was actually a flashforward, and that she left the island with enough information to somehow know right where to find a hydra polar bear?

A strike against that would be the headline of the newspaper, which indicates 815 had been found; however, it is quite clear from the exchange of dialogue between her and the other woman in Tunisia that Charlotte doesn't believe they've found the wreckage. She would certainly know this if she had already been on the island.

These flashbacks really confused me. I couldn't tell, especially after Charlotte's whether they were flashbacks for flashforwards. She does appear to know an awful lot about Dharma, as she did not seem at all surprised or confused about the Dharma collar on the polar bear. She appears the most knowledgeable of the four [is that even a word?]
Now I'm even more confused...

Charlotte obviously knew what she was looking for, when she digged out the collar.

She also knew there's more to the flight 815 story than others did, because she wanted to see the news over and over again.

The Hydra is located in the island, thus the Polarbear came from there. Via teleportation, dime distortion or whatnot, that is not that important. The fact it did, is.

or... there are two Hydra stations.

Mind you, it probably did come from the same station, but, again, that doesn't mean it teleported. Could have just been transported there via air, boat, etc.

The Hydra is located in the island, thus the Polarbear came from there. Via teleportation, dime distortion or whatnot, that is not that important. The fact it did, is.


I think that the best you can say is "The Hydra is located in the island, thus the Polarbear might have come from there." It could just as easily have come from somewhere else, and had been tagged and ready to ship to the hydra station when it died and was buried as we saw it. Don't forget; the first polar bears on the island had to be shipped in from somewhere else.

Time distortion and teleportation are some exotic possibilities for its presence in Tunisia, but but there are much simpler, mundane, and low-tech explanations as well...

look at this link(and enlarge the map)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vile_vortices
you will find one in sahara and one in the pacific ocean,and also some on the poles
i think it explains it pretty much...

look at this link(and enlarge the map)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vile_vortices
you will find one in sahara and one in the pacific ocean,and also some on the poles
i think it explains it pretty much...

Only one possible theory out of several.......

give me an example of some other theory of how the polar bear with the dharma collar ended up there..
Im sure the final solution will be based on couple of ideas but they all have to be present in todays culture(even if they are not approved by scientists)
But these vortices also enable time differences or even time travel-it seems to me they fit really good into general picture of what is happening

give me an example of some other theory of how the polar bear with the dharma collar ended up there..
Im sure the final solution will be based on couple of ideas but they all have to be present in todays culture(even if they are not approved by scientists)
But these vortices also enable time differences or even time travel-it seems to me they fit really good into general picture of what is happening

This thread, and the "Polar Bear in Desert proves time travel thread" is full of theories of why the bear ended up there, all plausible, and they all fit with what has been occuring in the show. Nothing's definitive yet.

ETA: Not that I agree with all the theories, but they all make sense within the confines of LOST.

Very interesting ideas in this thread.

I agree that Charlotte knew she was looking for a Dharma collar, and I guess that's about it. Everything else is speculation. I'm wondering; why an archaeological site? This confuses me.

However it got there, the bear wasn't meant to be there and was accidentally/incidentally found.

-or-

The archaeological site is significant. We don't know anymore about it, other than it is in Tunisia.

I don't think it could be one of the bears we've seen already, because it would have to have been at the site long enough to just now be discovered as a skeleton and to have been buried rather deeply. Charlotte had to jump down into a pit to see the skeleton. Also, it is apparent that archaeologists have been there quite a while, so a recent and sudden appearance of a teleported bear would have been noticed.

This Tunisia sequence reminded me of:

1. The opening of Stargate (the movie)
2. The opening of Close Encounters of the Third Kind

Not that I'm giving any significance to these. Just an observation.

Also, the beginning of The Exorcist...

I don't think it's crazy to say that Dharma existed and performed experiments off island. I wonder why they chose Tunisia though. In the grand scheme of things. We really know very little about Dharma yet other than that they used the Island as one base for their experiments. As for the polar bear, I think it is different from the one that was shot in season 1.

Yes there can be 20 Hydra stations all around the world, but that would just be stupid to name them all the same.

The polar bear came from the island, since it was already tagged as Hydra experiment. Charlotte was lured to the island trip with this interesting fact.

My another theory:

I believe the bear came through a vile vortice while doing a space-time loop with time in indian ocean, but at the same time it was dropped from an aeroplane while being transported from massachusetts to north pole - all at the same time because it was stuck in 5 dimensional black hole in the island. When desmond failed to press the button the fish bisquit got flown into another dimension and the bear died of hunger.

Yes there can be 20 Hydra stations all around the world, but that would just be stupid to name them all the same.



When you see a LAPD police car can you tell which station it came from by the logo?

I refuse say anything on this subject other than this one paragraph, you, like many people, are misunderstanding and misapplying Occam's Razor. You've been here longer than me, so you are probably already aware, but this has been debated ad nauseam on this board, and I'm not going to elaborate here.

Perhaps the fact that Mr. Ockham was the captain of the Christiane I is misleading some people in that direction?

Tangential to that: In regards to all the talk about movies that were shot in Tunisia, noone has mentioned Monty Python's Life of Brian, which is about how easily people can be led into following things that they shouldn't be following!

- mnw

When you see a LAPD police car can you tell which station it came from by the logo?

Every station has a purpose so they are named differently, just like every character, address etc. in the story has their own name. You can't compare brand names to individualized names.

give me an example of some other theory of how the polar bear with the dharma collar ended up there..

Scroll up to message 92 and you've got it. Simple, mundane, and not needing any exotic sciFi paraphernalia...
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I don't think it could be one of the bears we've seen already, because it would have to have been at the site long enough to just now be discovered as a skeleton and to have been buried rather deeply. Charlotte had to jump down into a pit to see the skeleton. Also, it is apparent that archaeologists have been there quite a while, so a recent and sudden appearance of a teleported bear would have been noticed.

It's quite normal when an animal dies, to bury it. The depth of the skeleton in the ground really doesn't prove anything if there could have been resolve among those who buried it to prevent scavengers from digging it up again. Plain. Simple.
100%

I don't think it's crazy to say that Dharma existed and performed experiments off island. I wonder why they chose Tunisia though

TLE showed Hanso facilities in North Africa. If you were going to breed a Polar Bear to survive in the wild in warm climates (they normally can't) you'd probably want to test them out before going through the time and expense of shipping a large and dangerous animal to the island. Tunisia would seem to be hot enough and be remote enough to allow secrecy.
100%

The polar bear came from the island, since it was already tagged as Hydra experiment. Charlotte was lured to the island trip with this interesting fact.


Do you have anything to base that on? The tag simply associates the bear with the Hydra station. It could just as easily have been tagged because it was being prepared to be shipped there for the first time. It may have never been anywhere near the island. You've suggested one possibility, but you have nothing to make it definite. Is it really that hard to understand this?

Seems to me that Charlotte's FB revealed that the island lives in the past; it's a landmass that eventually became present-day Tunisia.

What the...What?

Yes there can be 20 Hydra stations all around the world, but that would just be stupid to name them all the same.
Maybe it's a franchise? ;)

Seriously, isn't this thread becoming a little too tense?

Lot of info in this thread. I don't have access to find815 or lost experience (dial up), so bear with.
Once I started to kinda buy the teleportation idea, I thought perhaps someone switched around the long./ lad. and sent the poor fellow out to the Sahara (Ockham's ?occam's razor? ) . Now that I hear there are multiple Hydra stations I am thinking differently. The fact the this bear still had its ID collar leads me to believe it was not supposed to be there. Did it escape? Did the Dharmas abandon it? I can't wait until they show more clues.
100%
Maybe it's a franchise? ;)

Seriously, isn't this thread becoming a little too tense?

What would you do for a Klondike Bar ? (r)

Now that I hear there are multiple Hydra stations I am thinking differently.
My comment above was a joke. The possibility of a Tunisian hydra station has been used as a way to explain the polar bear, but to my knowledge, there is zero evidence of any off-island DHARMA stations.

In my opinion, if there were a hydra franchise in Tunisia, I would think TPTB would have had Charlotte stumble upon it instead of a polar bear.

Yeah, I realize that. I have to agree, I think she would have started to look around if she thought the station was there. Wait N see.

My comment above was a joke. The possibility of a Tunisian hydra station has been used as a way to explain the polar bear, but to my knowledge, there is zero evidence of any off-island DHARMA stations.


But we've gotta consider that zero evidence does not suggest that something's unlikely. It just means that we haven't seen evidence yet. As The Hanso Foundation that funded Dharma was a very cosmopolitan organization, there's certainly nothing to suggest that an off-island Dharma facility would be any way out of the ordinary. I would suggest that last week's ep might be the first evidence of such placess, unless we want to count some TLE stuff.

From a storytelling POV, since we've only had two episodes where it's being made clear that a lot of the story may be off-island, I'd say that the writers didn't take long to bring in the Dharma angle...

the whole 'casmir effect' that was brought up by the Orchid orientation video suggests that wormholes or teleport experimentation was afoot on the island.



Casimir effect and wormholes

Exotic matter with negative energy density is required to stabilize a wormhole.[6] Morris, Thorne and Yurtsever[7] pointed out that the quantum mechanics of the Casimir effect can be used to produce a locally mass-negative region of space-time, and suggested that negative effect could be used to stabilize a wormhole to allow faster than light travel.

That would explain why there was a polar bear in the middle of the Tunisian desert at any rate, as opposed to a branch of Hydra in Tunisia.

Something similar happened with a Shark during TLE...

"We were diving off the Great Barrier Reef when we found this partially decayed shark carcass. Check out the logo on this guy...definitely not a tattoo or a brand..." -Richard P.

http://www.djdan.am/mn_img/sharks/shark-general.jpg

http://www.djdan.am/mn_img/sharks/shark-closeup.jpg

I don't think that there'd be any overt DHARMA presence off-island, I'm trying to think if there was any hint of it during TLE but my minds gone blank and there's a lot of clues to check through on LostPedia?

I've always thought that the food that was dropped must have been prepared and branded with the DHARMA logo somewhere offshore and then delivered to The Island but whoever has been paid to do that probably doesn't advertise the fact, most likely it's a company that's owned by one of the big three.

Or maybe that whole food-drop thing was on On-Island operation?

I don't think that there'd be any overt DHARMA presence off-island, I'm trying to think if there was any hint of it during TLE but my minds gone blank and there's a lot of clues to check through on LostPedia?


I'd say that's way up in the air at the moment, especially in light of last week's ep. When you come right down to it, there's no reason they couldn't have done some work elsewhere, but until the story started moving off-island there's no way it would be shown to us. Besides, revealing it all of a sudden makes for an easy WTF moment...

In any case, it's not hard to imagine them breeding the first temperate-climate bears off-island, considering the cost and bother of transferring the animals there. I mean, hey, they're large, dangerous, and had to be a real bother to stuff down the hatchway of that submarine:biggrin:.

Seriously, the first bears brought to the island had to come from somewhere, and I'd suspect they'd want their initial breeding stock on the island to at least be moderately adapted to the heat. What better place to do the initial breeding in secrecy than a hot and relatively obscure place like the Tunisian wilderness?

Yes there can be 20 Hydra stations all around the world, but that would just be stupid to name them all the same.

Not really. Let's say there are 5 locations on the planet that DHARMA was interested in researching. One is the island, obviously, perhaps another in Tunisia, because of some strange properties exhibited there, and 3 others scattered around the globe because of unique properties in those places.

Each point of interest has the same 'stations'... each one has a SWAN station, each has an ARROW station, a PEARL station, etc., etc.... and each would have a HYDRA station. The Hydra stations serve as the zoological research stations at each of these DHARMA facilities.

Why would it be "stupid" to name them all the same? It would actually make things easier when transferring personel from one location to another - they would already be familiar with the purpose and names of every station.

Mind you, I don't necessarily think that's what is going on here, but it's FAR more plausible (which doesn't mean anything in this show, I concede) than teleportation or ... vortices (where are these references to vortices coming from, by the way? Why is everyone referring to them as fact when we haven't seen a single thing about them in the show?)...

This bear, more than likely, was somehow linked to the Hyrda station that we all know. Whether the bear was ever actually ON the island we don't know. As others have said, it could have died before being transported there. Or, it could have been transferred to Tunisia from the island by normal means.

I'm kind of wondering how long the polar bear survived... My guess is that it might have been left in the desert to see how capable it was of surviving there, in the same way it seems that polar bears were being adjusted to live in the jungle. So did the polar bear die naturally or from extreme hunger or dehydration?

It was a myocardial infarction brought on by extreme hunger.

It's quite normal when an animal dies, to bury it. The depth of the skeleton in the ground really doesn't prove anything if there could have been resolve among those who buried it to prevent scavengers from digging it up again. Plain. Simple.
100%


I disagree that it is plain and simple. If a polar bear suddenly appeared at an archaeological dig, either already dead or dies quickly, who would bury it there? It makes no sense to bury something at an ongoing dig. Especially something that doesn't belong there.

I understand your devil's advocacy. There are a gazillion (well...maybe not that many) ideas and theories about the polar bear and how/why it was in Tunisia. I'm going to go out on a limb, and say that ultimately, the answer will be neither plain or simple! :D

Not really. Let's say there are 5 locations on the planet that DHARMA was interested in researching. One is the island, obviously, perhaps another in Tunisia, because of some strange properties exhibited there, and 3 others scattered around the globe because of unique properties in those places.

Each point of interest has the same 'stations'... each one has a SWAN station, each has an ARROW station, a PEARL station, etc., etc.... and each would have a HYDRA station. The Hydra stations serve as the zoological research stations at each of these DHARMA facilities.

Why would it be "stupid" to name them all the same? It would actually make things easier when transferring personel from one location to another - they would already be familiar with the purpose and names of every station.

I agree with this logic. Obviously a Polar bear in the desert makes very little sense and it's not plain and simple because whatever work the DHARMA initiative was undertaking was not plain and simple. However I am sure this will be resolved in a more straightforward manner than a wormhole because thus far most of the explanations for strange happenings have been simple and plausible. I think the writers will continue to allude to the existence of wormholes but in the end, all of these strange happenings will be explained by actual science and not science fiction.

I disagree that it is plain and simple. If a polar bear suddenly appeared at an archaeological dig, either already dead or dies quickly, who would bury it there? It makes no sense to bury something at an ongoing dig. Especially something that doesn't belong there.

I understand your devil's advocacy. There are a gazillion (well...maybe not that many) ideas and theories about the polar bear and how/why it was in Tunisia. I'm going to go out on a limb, and say that ultimately, the answer will be neither plain or simple! :D

I don't follow what you're saying. I believe that what happened (assumptions on my part) is that they discovered a polar bear at the site of an archaeological dig. The people who buried it did not intrude upon some dig site and bury it, as the site most likely was not being excavated at the time of the alleged burial.

- Polar bear is in Tunisia (somehow)
- Polar bear dies in Tunisia
- People bury dead polar bear in Tunisia
- Time passes
- More time passes
- Archaeological dig begun in Tunisia
- Polar bear skeleton is uncovered at the dig site
- "Hey what a weird thing to find at a dig site" news is sent out in the archaeological community
- Charlotte learns of discovery (somehow)
- Charlotte travels to dig site because she suspects DHARMA
- Charlotte digs out collar, proving DHARMA involvement

I don't really think anyone is suggesting someone buried the skeleton in an active dig site. It just happened to be buried in a place where someone EVENTUALLY began excavating.

The question that comes to my mind when watching this scene is what is Charlotte's interest in the DHARMA initiative? Why is she so excited to see the hydra logo? Also, why is she reading the news in so many different languages to find out about the 815 wreckage? I'm less concerned with how the bear got there because I assume that DHARMA has more locations than some remote island that is nearly impossible to get to. I also wonder what DI was doing collecting polar bears in warm climates. Why bring a polar bear to the desert or a tropical island?

Thus far, I don't believe we've seen any 'evidence' of teleportation. After all, what 'evidence' can there be? All we've seen is that a polar bear skeleton was found in the Tunisian desert wearing (or perhaps not) a DHARMA Hydra collar.

We can't assume anything about the age of the skeleton based on un-rusted rivets in the collar because that assumes that TPTB would go to those lengths to give us hints and would take that into account. History has shown that they are lazy when it comes to tiny details like that, and the show is overflowing with continuity errors like that. It MAY be a hint, but I wouldn't bet on it. They simply can't think of everything.

Let's look at things we can be relatively sure of:

1) Charlotte was VERY interested in the discovery of 815. We don't know why.
2) Charlotte had to pay her way onto the site.
3) Charlotte had a LOT of money (well, we don't know this, as I am unfamiliar with their currency and just how much she paid him, but TPTB employed a familiar "huge wad of cash" visual to, IMO, signify that she was passing a lot of money to the guy at the site.
4) Charlotte ignored the rest of the skeleton and immediately dug under the head. She was looking in that specific spot. She was looking for something, and judging by her face, she found what she was looking for. Therefor, it is safe to assume that she was looking for a DHARMA collar.

Based on that, I think it's logical to assume that Charlotte had prior knowledge of the DHARMA group, and their use of Polar Bears. She knew to look for a collar. She obviously travelled to this specific site to search for DHARMA paraphernalia.

My interpretation of all this is as follows:

Charlotte learned that someone unearthed a poloar bear in the middle of the Tunisian desert. She could have learned this on her own, or she was informed of this by an 'employer' of some sorts. Either way, she immediately was either sent off or departed on her own to the site, as this seemed to have a DHARMA feel to it. She went there to verify that it was indeed a DHARMA bear.

I don't think we can make ANY assumptions on how the bear got to where it was. There are numerous possibilities. The bear could have been transported from the Hydra station on the island to the Tunisian desert to see how it would survive in the desert (my personal opinion) by the DHARMA folks. After all, we do know that they were studying polar bears living in non-natural environments. So I don't think it's a great leap to conclude that they simply chose a remote desert to move one of the polar bears to in order to study the effects.

The polar bear could have also been 'teleported' there, I suppose, but we've seen no concrete evidence of anyone teleporting anywhere in this show, so I don't think that's anything more than unsubstantiated theorizing by fans.

The bear could have also been part of a second Hydra station in Tunisia. DHARMA may have had all kinds of stations in all sorts of 'special' places around the globe.

Anyway, I just don't think there's any reason or basis to assume this was time travel or teleportation. Yet.
hmm , what about the rabbit in the video, it seemed to teleport from somewhere.. and the scientists were all freaked out about it being around the other rabbit (same rabbit)>??

I believe the hydra station is under the bear, underground. They threw the polarbear via a tube to the ground, so they can see what happens.

The tunnel goes back to the island underground. So they are actually one and the same station, it's just that big.

There is only one hydra station, it's not a pizza franchise mind you. Somehow we don't know yet but maybe in time it will be differently altered into same dimension. This is a MUCH MORE PLAUSIBLE theory than yours, since in Tunisia there is too much sand to do a good hatch digging.

I believe the hydra station is under the bear, underground. They threw the polarbear via a tube to the ground, so they can see what happens.

The tunnel goes back to the island underground. So they are actually one and the same station, it's just that big.

There is only one hydra station, it's not a pizza franchise mind you. Somehow we don't know yet but maybe in time it will be differently altered into same dimension. This is a MUCH MORE PLAUSIBLE theory than yours, since in Tunisia there is too much sand to do a good hatch digging.

You mean like the tubes at the bank?? I guess this is as plausible as anything else I've seen on this thread...

After reading through 13 grueling pages of this thread I have learned one thing for absolutely sure, and that is how to spell paraphernalia... used a lot of it in my younger years to take trips through some of those vile vortices (why are they "vile" by the way... what did they ever do to anyone) but I never knew how to spell it until now... thank you :biggrin:

That's what we're here for, bourne. ;)

After reading through 13 grueling pages of this thread I have learned one thing for absolutely sure, and that is how to spell paraphernalia... used a lot of it in my younger years to take trips through some of those vile vortices (why are they "vile" by the way... what did they ever do to anyone) but I never knew how to spell it until now... thank you :biggrin:


why are they vile?
well they "kidnapped" innocent people and dumped them on the lost island:)
thats an argument,right?:)
100%
I agree with this logic. Obviously a Polar bear in the desert makes very little sense and it's not plain and simple because whatever work the DHARMA initiative was undertaking was not plain and simple. However I am sure this will be resolved in a more straightforward manner than a wormhole because thus far most of the explanations for strange happenings have been simple and plausible. I think the writers will continue to allude to the existence of wormholes but in the end, all of these strange happenings will be explained by actual science and not science fiction.

the whole concept of wormholes actually exists in todays science so I wouldnt call it "a science fiction"....
if you want something popular read your own magazine "Scientific american"

the whole concept of wormholes actually exists in todays science so I wouldnt call it "a science fiction"....
if you want something popular read your own magazine "Scientific american"

OK, I agree there might be some wormhole that is associated with the island due to the fact that you have to follow a certain coordinate to get in and out (snowglobe aspect) but i don't know if the polar bear has anything to do with the wormhole. In this case I'd be more interested in DHARMA having stations outside of the island but that's just a personal thing. As with everything to do with LOST, there are still a lot of questions to be answered and this thread has some great fodder in it.

why are they vile?
well they "kidnapped" innocent people and dumped them on the lost island:)
thats an argument,right?:)
100%


the whole concept of wormholes actually exists in todays science so I wouldnt call it "a science fiction"....


Very true, I suppose, but once you start speculating what happens when human's pass through these wormholes, it becomes science fiction, purely speculative.

I read not so long ago, somewhere, that someone considered LOST to be "stealth sci-fi." I really liked that description.

The polar bear with Dharma collar found in the Tunisian desert reminded me of the following literary reference:


"Kilimanjaro is a snow-covered mountain 19,710 feet high, and it is said to be the highest mountain in Africa. Its western summit is called by the Masai, 'Ngaje Ngai,' the House of God. Close to the western summit there is the dried and frozen carcass of a leopard. No one has explained what the leopard was seeking at that altitude."


It is the opening lines for Ernest Hemingway's "The Snows of Kilimanjaro". Of course the leopard is native to Africa and not normally wearing a Dharma collar but the reference struck me as kind of interesting, don't ya think? :)

Well, Damon and Carlton actually went pretty far towards answering this question in the new official podcast that came out today. They said it got to the desert in the same way that bunny #8 moved through space in the Orchid video (That is not a direct quote, please listen on your own).
Podcast is minorly spoilery about this week's episode (title and centric).

Okay, so I listened and I really didn't understand it at all. Spoilerfontented only because some people don't read PTB comments: And in the video it's not bunny #8, it's bunny #15. I'm so confused. Can someone explain the connection to me?
Thanks.

I rewatched the video they suggested...and this could be a HUGE reveal!

Ok please explain it to me then. I watched it off of youtube. I'd seen it before. And I just don't understand.

Things are usually simpler than people think.


This is just what i've been trying to explain to you. There are no 20 hydra stations, like it would be a pizza franchise.

Bear came from the island, confirmed by Darlton in the latest podcast. It is teleported like the bunny in the Orchid station video. There are ways to get things off and on the island.

Laura, I'm not really good at explaining this type of thing, but I would say that the Orchid station transports objects/creatures through time and space. With the bunny, it got transported into the same place, right next to itself, which was a big problem. Sounds like the polar bear was transported to Tunisia - I guess into the past as well.

I wonder if the Tunisia bear was one of the Orchid's first test subjects. Maybe they never knew how far it traveled. Personally, I liked Damon's first explanation about the bear taking a boat and then hitchhiking to Tunisia. :biggrin:

Maybe I should rewatch the video. I didn't understand it when I watched it.

Well, in the video, it says something about the setting being "-20". I wonder if the negative implies being sent back in time?

This could help explain Ben in the end of TE, it could be a doppleganger, transported off the island into the future. It would also explain the "old" currency, if he's transporting into the past.

This also provides another mean of getting off the island that's not a submarine or a helicopter.

Is anyone discussing an alternate pole (earth axis) theory? Tunisia could be directly opposite an area of the South Pacific where Flight 815 crashed/where the island is. Could also explain the electromagnetic qualities of the hatch.

Things are usually simpler than people think.


This is just what i've been trying to explain to you. There are no 20 hydra stations, like it would be a pizza franchise.

Bear came from the island, confirmed by Darlton in the latest podcast. It is teleported like the bunny in the Orchid station video. There are ways to get things off and on the island.


Heppamies, I think your right in this case. What Darlton stated in the podcast is my guess. I stated this on page 9 of this thread, however I think the 20 hyrda stations is a fun idea :rolleyes:. IMO Dharma was doing two experiments on the polar bears (1st gene and climate changes @ the Hydra, then 2nd casamir /teleported to different environments off the island from the Orchid station.

Seems to me that Charlotte's FB revealed that the island lives in the past; it's a landmass that eventually became present-day Tunisia.

If the Island became Tunisia, about how long would that take? Charlotte didn't look like she aged a day. I'm guessing the Polar Bear was transported by accident, perhaps a duplicate?
100%
Is anyone discussing an alternate pole (earth axis) theory? Tunisia could be directly opposite an area of the South Pacific where Flight 815 crashed/where the island is. Could also explain the electromagnetic qualities of the hatch.

Good thought! I was thinking that velocity, volume, speed and direction might have something to do with where the duplicates end up.