Last week when Abaddon visited Hurley and asked if *they* were still alive, I figured he was trying to get information on the rest of the Losties that didnt come back. But now I am wondering if the O6 get off the island, but the Freighter people get left there, leaving Abaddon trying to get his people back?

Good idea- you may be very right there. Abbadon obviously had some purpose with these boaties, and if the O6 somehow escaped leaving them behind, Abbadon would likely want to know.

I think the "They" that Matthew Abdonon (not sure on spelling) is referring to is not the other survivors of Oceanic 815 but his team of people that he sent to the Island (I.e., Mile, Faraday, C.S. and the drunk pilot). Something tells me that the Ofeanic 6 left these guys behind.

Wow. Interesting thought.

That actually fits really well. Would explain why Jack says he's tired of lying, the lie might be that the helicopter crew died during their mission, and Jack 7 co. took the helipcopter to saftety. There might be a few holes, but so far it sounds plausible.

I think the "They" that Matthew Abdonon (not sure on spelling) is referring to is not the other survivors of Oceanic 815 but his team of people that he sent to the Island (I.e., Mile, Faraday, C.S. and the drunk pilot). Something tells me that the Ofeanic 6 left these guys behind.


I wonder if Sayid becomes one of the 6? I would not be surprised if he had piloting skills.
The 6 would then be: Jack, Kate, Claire, Aaron, Sayid and Hurley??

Yeah, that helicopter won't hold ten people, so if 6 losties get rescued, then the rescue team gets left behind. Will the helicopter even get off the island? Helicopters don't seem to fly too well near the island.

Abaddon tells Naomi twice that everyone aboard 815 is dead, then he repeats it again ordering her if they are not to make sure they are. I can understand why he would want Ben, but why would he care if people survived the plane crash?

Abaddon tells Naomi twice that everyone aboard 815 is dead, then he repeats it again ordering her if they are not to make sure they are. I can understand why he would want Ben, but why would he care if people survived the plane crash?

Probably for the same reason key witnesses go missing in murder trials. They know too much.

Abaddon tells Naomi twice that everyone aboard 815 is dead, then he repeats it again ordering her if they are not to make sure they are. I can understand why he would want Ben, but why would he care if people survived the plane crash?

Did he order her to make sure there were no survivors, or just imply with his inflection?

He did, however, tell he was sending her to make sure they get in and that no one (of the team) gets killed ;)

When it was revealed that Abbadon put the Freighter crew together I immediately started to wonder if he meant the 815 survivors or his crew.

This is just another one of those new questions we'll have to wait months and months for.

But part of me hopes that the Freighters were left there with the 815 survivors. Just will make it all more interesting when Jack goes back to the island which I think he most definitely will.

I agree that "they" must be the Freighters. If they had made it back with the O6, they had loyalties to Abaddon and would tell them directly if the rest of 815 was alive.

I need to rewatch but didn't Abbadon tell Naomi to get the people in AND out?

Good theory. Since Abbadon is clearly not really from Oceanic, perhaps he can't just come out publicly and ask about the Freighties when the Oceanic 6 get rescued. So he asks Hurley instead.

What I still don't get is, how are they going to explain publicly how 6 members of the Oceanic flight survived when the whole world sees this news story about the plane being found on the bottom of the ocean?

I need to rewatch but didn't Abbadon tell Naomi to get the people in AND out?
Yeah, but Naomi is dead. She couldn't make sure that the other four got back out again.
So it's at least possible that the O6 left the island but left the four freighties behind.

Yeah, but Naomi is dead. She couldn't make sure that the other four got back out again.
So it's at least possible that the O6 left the island but left the four freighties behind.
the chopper would probably only carry 6 if it's low on fuel...are there any losties who are capable of flying one? sayid?

this may seem rude and kinda mean spirited, BUT if the chopper was low on fuel and keeping the weight down was important, why pick Hurley as one to leave on the first flight out....?

don't think they leave by helicopter

Bawstngrl

the chopper would probably only carry 6 if it's low on fuel...are there any losties who are capable of flying one? sayid?

When Sayid checked out the heli, he told Jack that it does still work, so it seems pretty clear that he would be able to fly it.

Wow! Good point, I didn't even think about the fact that Abbadon isn't even interested in the 815 survivors when he asks about if they are still alive. He really was interested in whether or not his crew survived. So i guess it's safe to say none of the people from the freighter actually make it off the island with the Oceanic 6. They use the copter maybe to fly to the freighter where Ben's helper is...so many questions!! :)

After seeing that Abaddon is behind the sending of the 'rescue team' maybe in last weeks episode when he asked Hurley are they still alive maybe he meant:

1. his team and not the other losties.
2. or the others as his team was sent to get Ben

I think the latter personally.

Yeah I kinda got the feeling after watching last night the he could have been referring to his team

I definitely don't think he's concerned with the survivors of 815 anymore and is more concerned with his team. But the fact that the cop that interrogated Hurley last episode makes you wonder if the rest of the world isnt wondering about everyone else? The cop definitely seemed suspicious. But I dont think Abbadon cares about them. Unless of course there is a conspiracy that he is involved in and someone else assured him there were no survivors, and he's about to find out differently.

Do we know if anyone else can fly a helicopter to get the Losties off the Island and not the team? I didn't even think about it this way! Would the new team want to stay there to do some research but not be obligated to report back to Abbadon?

Good catch indeed, it puts his question in new light.

And having that he doesn't know anything about his team, we can only assume that they somehow failed catching Ben :biggrin:
100%
Do we know if anyone else can fly a helicopter to get the Losties off the Island and not the team? I didn't even think about it this way! Would the new team want to stay there to do some research but not be obligated to report back to Abbadon?

Jack said in the Pilot eppy that he took a couple of flying lessons, and Sayid looked as he knew his way around the thing...

But where would they go? We are forgetting about the people on the frighter... what if they won't be that welcoming? Minkowski sure sounded though...

Do we know if anyone else can fly a helicopter to get the Losties off the Island and not the team? I didn't even think about it this way! Would the new team want to stay there to do some research but not be obligated to report back to Abbadon?

Sayid seemed pretty comfortable in it.
What if the Losties killed or knew who killed the "rescue team"?
Could that what Jack asked hugo about if he was going to tell?

.. that Abbadon said to Hurley and we thought was about the 815 survivors, might be about his own team members, don't you think ?

Could be, or it could be about Bens group too. Especially since they seem to be looking for Ben and none too happy with him. Just another question in the ever growing list at this point!

I need to rewatch but didn't Abbadon tell Naomi to get the people in AND out?

Yes

Did he order her to make sure there were no survivors, or just imply with his inflection?

He did, however, tell he was sending her to make sure they get in and that no one (of the team) gets killed ;)

But, like someone mentioned, Naomi is dead, so I'd assume the whole plan (Abbadon's) got shot to, well, The Island, when she died...

The context of the above line was when Naomi was talking about why those four and Abbadon mnetions to Naomi why Her - to get the team to the Island (naomi has special ability to get there?) and make sure no one gets killed. I sure took the implication to mean only the Team without regard to anyone who may be on the Island when they get there - except Ben of course ;)

Yeah, I would think he was talking about the Benites as he wasn't too concerned about his team going into this. I believe they picked the pilot because he knew too much, possible the same with the girl. He didn't even seem care about Naomi much, making her the only muscle of the operation. I truly believe that Ben is the bad guy and that's who everyone is after.........and Abbadon wants him bad! neo

this may seem rude and kinda mean spirited, BUT if the chopper was low on fuel and keeping the weight down was important, why pick Hurley as one to leave on the first flight out....?
don't think they leave by helicopter
Bawstngrl
Maybe it just has to do with who is around when they make their escape. Assuming they go by helicopter, it might simply be a question who is by the helicopter when they have a chance to flee.
If Jack, Kate, Hurley and three others (one of whom must be ale to fly) are by the helicopter and the situation is right for them to leave and (as they assume) get help for the others, I don't think anybody would say "Sorry Hurley, you've got to stay here, you're too heavy." I really think even if they go by helicopter, it depends on the situation.

Wow! Good point, I didn't even think about the fact that Abbadon isn't even interested in the 815 survivors when he asks about if they are still alive. He really was interested in whether or not his crew survived. So i guess it's safe to say none of the people from the freighter actually make it off the island with the Oceanic 6. They use the copter maybe to fly to the freighter where Ben's helper is...so many questions!! :)
But the big problem if they go by helicopter is that as Frank says, it has barely enough fuel to get back to the freighter. I'm not a buyer of any wormhole-theories, so for me that poses the question what happens after the six get on the helicopter.
Somehow, I can't wrap my head around that yet. Even if Ben has a man on the freighter, should that be enough to make sure that they return to the real world, and everybody else stays on the island. Wouldn't the people on the freighter insist that they get their team back first? As of now, that whole scenario doesn't really make sense to me.

And yet, when Naomi got to the Island she claimed that she was looking for Desmond and had "the photograph" to prove it. So she must be working on new information she gathered. I don't doubt she did some research on her own and found Penny or at least heard about the "Desmond angle" from someone. By "Desmond angle" I mean using looking for him as an excuse for gathering information about the "Losties."

If she was a type of "black ops" person, it would make sense. Sly and cute: very deadly.

Did he order her to make sure there were no survivors, or just imply with his inflection?

He did, however, tell he was sending her to make sure they get in and that no one (of the team) gets killed ;)

You're right, he didn't ask her to make sure. I don't even think it could be implied from his tone of vioce. He simply repeated that there were no survivors from 815. He wanted her to stop being curious. He probably knows that there were survivors, but he's not talking to Naomi.

Going back to the previous episode, it would appear probable that he was asking Hurley about the 4, and not just any other Losties that may have been left behind. Abaddon wanted Naomi to get in and out alive, and he mut be aware by now that Naomi is, at the least, missing.

I took his tone to mean that she's not to be worried about the 815 survivors. Her only mission is to go there and get her people in, do their job and get out. Now, where I'm iffy is why Naomi had Desmond's photo, and Miles has Ben's.

Dharma is pissed about Ben gassing their whole facility so they are planning a little revenge.
but ben always has an ace up his sleve so he was one step ahead of them.

But the big problem if they go by helicopter is that as Frank says, it has barely enough fuel to get back to the freighter. I'm not a buyer of any wormhole-theories, so for me that poses the question what happens after the six get on the helicopter.
Somehow, I can't wrap my head around that yet. Even if Ben has a man on the freighter, should that be enough to make sure that they return to the real world, and everybody else stays on the island. Wouldn't the people on the freighter insist that they get their team back first? As of now, that whole scenario doesn't really make sense to me.

Maybe Locke smashes all the Sat phones and transponders after the helicopter with the 6 leave making it almost impossible for the island to be found again ;)

I don't think Abaddon cares about the 815 people at all. I think he was looking for the island, couldn't find it, and when 815 disappeared he and his "people" realized that the island somehow swallowed the plane up. If they could find the plane they could find the island. I'm not even convinced he cares about all of his "crew". It wouldn't surprise me if Naomi's last order before leaving (if she hadn't died) would have been to kill the pilot and any of the other "crew" that were deemed unable to keep their mouth shut about the island and the true resting place of 815. I think part of the crew is useful (MIles, Naomi) and that the pilot is there to keep him (and possibliy eliminate him) from making trouble about how the find of 815 on the ocean floor is an obvious fake.

He might be asking if all of the original Dharna people are really dead...

Though, more on track with the original post, I really like how something sounds obvious in one epsoide, and then later you get new info that puts it possibly in a whole new light. Really keeps you on your toes.

Last week when Abaddon visited Hurley and asked if *they* were still alive, I figured he was trying to get information on the rest of the Losties that didnt come back. But now I am wondering if the O6 get off the island, but the Freighter people get left there, leaving Abaddon trying to get his people back?
That's a very interesting idea. However, Abbadon never said who he *really* was to Hurley, so how would Hurley have known who he was referring to? If I were Hurley, I would have assumed the Losties, not the Freighties. Also, if he did mean the Freighties, what is Hurley's incentive to go back and rescue them? We know he's been having... Visions (for lack of a more definitive word) telling him to go back... But I really don't think he would do it for the Freighties, unless a lot of things happen between now and then.

Side note: Anyone know the correct spelling of Ab's name? Is it two "b"s or "d"s? We've all been spelling it different ways. :biggrin:

chica - At LostPedia it's Abaddon, but that site also points out that in the press release for TBOTE it was spelt 'Abbadon'. It reverted to 'Abaddon' in the press release for Confirmed Dead. Therefore, I'm in the dark as well :)

M

Ok, but why would anyone think that there were people from a plane crash that all died would be on this island? If I heard on the news that everyone died in a plane crash, I wouldn't wonder if they were going to show up on some stange island. I mean what would give her cause to think that there were 815 people there?

It seemed to me like he was trying to express to Naomi that even though they both knew there were survivors he wanted to make sure no one else ever knew. He was basically saying "I'm tired of this conversation. Let's not utter anything about survivors anymore". Does anyone else feel that way?

It seemed to me like he was trying to express to Naomi that even though they both knew there were survivors he wanted to make sure no one else ever knew. He was basically saying "I'm tired of this conversation. Let's not utter anything about survivors anymore". Does anyone else feel that way?

I agree. Though I'd say they probably knew it was a strong possibility, but not necessarily a fact. It seemed like it was a very secondary issue for him. Like if it turned out to be true it would be an annoyance, something else to keep quiet. Like they both know they had to stick to the story of no survivors and if they did have the misfortune of discovering some they'd figure out later how to handle it/hide it.

chica - At LostPedia it's Abaddon, but that site also points out that in the press release for TBOTE it was spelt 'Abbadon'. It reverted to 'Abaddon' in the press release for Confirmed Dead. Therefore, I'm in the dark as well :)

M

Alright then, thanks for the info. Perhaps we'll learn the true spelling as he becomes more prominent in the show.

Although having said that, I stick with Abaddon because of

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abaddon

and

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abaddon_%28demon%29

Would seem more likely given the apparent tone of the character, from what we know so far

That's a very interesting idea. However, Abbadon never said who he *really* was to Hurley, so how would Hurley have known who he was referring to? If I were Hurley, I would have assumed the Losties, not the Freighties. Also, if he did mean the Freighties, what is Hurley's incentive to go back and rescue them? We know he's been having... Visions (for lack of a more definitive word) telling him to go back... But I really don't think he would do it for the Freighties, unless a lot of things happen between now and then.

Side note: Anyone know the correct spelling of Ab's name? Is it two "b"s or "d"s? We've all been spelling it different ways. :biggrin:

Double mystery on us!

Hurley knows exactly who Abaddon is talking about, IMO, because he knows exactly what he is not supposed to talk about also. There is a whole lot of stuff we don't know ;)

I still think he's referring to the survivors. If you think about the discussion he had with Naomi, she was giving him all sorts of reasons why this mission was FUBAR. He was sending them in no matter what and it didn't seem to me as if he really cared even though he kept saying get them in and out alive. It seemed to me as if there was some higher purpose for sending them there that he wasn't letting them in on. I think he knew and has known all along about the 815'ers and what his true intentions are are going to be a big part of the show later on I guess.

But I don't think he's too concerned about these four. They are important but their roles on the island aren't nearly as important as the 815'ers in the big scheme of things I think.

My guess is that they don't get rescued by the boat people. I think Penny will rescue them at some point.

I like the idea, and it would have to be someone other than the freighter that helps them out at least w/ my line of reasoning. Daniel, Miles et al came from the freighter so they should be baddies too. Especially since Ben said he has someone on the ship (implying they would need monitoring)

What I still don't get is, how are they going to explain publicly how 6 members of the Oceanic flight survived when the whole world sees this news story about the plane being found on the bottom of the ocean?
The robotic subs presumably didn't explore the whole wreck. Maybe they (Dharma? Widmore?) feel that it is safe to claim that there were no survivors, since they are no longer in contact with the island.
100%
My guess is that they don't get rescued by the boat people. I think Penny will rescue them at some point.
Could be.
Speaking of Penny, have we seen Desmond yet in season 4? If not,
where is he?

LLL - We've seen Desmond in TBOTE when the Losties split into two groups, but I don't remember seeing him in Confirmed Dead. He's in Jack's group, and we only really saw Kate, Jack, Sayid and Juliet from that group. We had the scene between Juliet and Sayid on the beah, but I don't think Desmond was in the background

I think the thing that we're missing with this whole discussion is that even though he lied to Hurley about who he was, he never had a doubt in his mind that Hurley would know who he was talking about when asking if "they" were still alive. That means that something must still be coming up that is quite momentous because otherwise the "they" that he speaks of (as of right now) could easily mean the Freighties, the Others, the original team before the Purge, etc.

I just don't see exactly what could transpire that would be that huge for Hurley to immediately know who this unidentified person is talking about - even if a war of some type broke out, there are at least three different factions: The Losties, the Others, and the Freighties.

Wicked catch!

I was one thinking he meant the survivors...How ingenious of the writers, if that's the case!
I'm sure I wasnt the only one thinking he meant the Losties. I know we dont know for sure yet who he MEANT when he asked Hurley if THEY were still alive...But for a man that told Naomi there were no survivors, I guess that leaves his team, or Ben's team.

Eric

Wicked catch!

I was one thinking he meant the survivors...How ingenious of the writers, if that's the case!
I'm sure I wasnt the only one thinking he meant the Losties. I know we dont know for sure yet who he MEANT when he asked Hurley if THEY were still alive...But for a man that told Naomi there were no survivors, I guess that leaves his team, or Ben's team.

Eric

Or... Abaddon really believes what he told Naomi about there being no survivors and is completely shocked to learn of the O6, and is asking Hurley if there are more. (As a possiblity)

After having time to think (a lot) about it, I don't think Abaddon is talking about the Losties - and Hurley definitely knows who "They" are.

Just not enough pieces of this puzzle yet...

I thought he meant the "others" but now as I remember I think it was the Losties as he said they needed Hurley and the others and freighters wouldn't need Hurley. Would have to be the Losties.

I thought he meant the "others" but now as I remember I think it was the Losties as he said they needed Hurley and the others and freighters wouldn't need Hurley. Would have to be the Losties.

...oh yeah :) And, since you reminded me, Charlie and the palm as well... :)

In TBOTE we meet Abaddon, who asks Hurley, "Are They Still Alive"?
We are lead to assume he meant the people of flight 815 at the time.

However after seeing CD last week, could it be that "They" really means
the team he assembled? (Naomi, Miles, Dan and Charlotte).

or could "They" mean "Ben's team"...

I think Abaddon's interest lies more in Ben, the team he sent and their
mission to get Ben.

Is it possible that even Abaddon thinks what the outside world thinks,
(plane lost, search called off, plane found, confirmed dead, 6 miraculously
survived and returned home via freighter in which Abaddons team never
came back from?)

I think Abaddon was just trying to get to Hurley. At the point when he said "Are they still alive?" Hurley already knew that Abaddon was not who he said he was. Abaddon wanted to shake him up even more.

But then again, what do I know?

Also-
Abaddon knowing the secrecy of the mission must know
that something more than what was released by the news
outlets is happening.
So he pursues these survivors of the flight for any information
they may have.
I think his intentions were for Hurley to go with him, so he
could interrogate him and get answers that will lead him
to his team and Ben.

It would seem to me that the "they" he's referring to would be the group of people Hurley most identifies and sympathizes with i.e. the losties.

Seems to me Abaddon is trying to convince Hurley to come with him and/or provide him with some critical information, by using the memory of those that may not have made it off the island. I didn't get the impression that Abaddon was grilling Hurley for info, which would be more likely the case if he was referring to ben, the others, or the freighter 4.

i think A. said "they" meaning charlie,and the others that died on the island. i have an odd feeling that the dead are walking.

I think Abaddon was just trying to get to Hurley. At the point when he said "Are they still alive?" Hurley already knew that Abaddon was not who he said he was. Abaddon wanted to shake him up even more.

But then again, what do I know?

Agreed! I forgot to add that.

Just noting how perceptions change so rapidly in this show.
My Penny/Naomi thread seemed to make so much sense
last week. Then this week it was blown out of the water.

Most of us assumed he meant the passengers of flight 815 when
he asked if "they" are still alive.

Now "they" could be taken differently.
100%
i think A. said "they" meaning charlie,and the others that died on the island. i have an odd feeling that the dead are walking.

Interesting..
When in doubt, poke it with a stick. :poking:
However I think the dead are indeed dead.
I think hallucinations and visions are the
explanations of the dead we see.

Agreed! I forgot to add that.

Just noting how perceptions change so rapidly in this show.
My Penny/Naomi thread seemed to make so much sense
last week. Then this week it was blown out of the water.

huuummmm....could be the same with charlie.....ya never know:sweety:

The "Are they still alive?" question, delivered suddenly and unexpectedly is a classic interrogation (and interview!) tactic, intended to get a surprised reaction that can be interpreted as a yes/no. One thing that frustrated Abbadon's ploy is that Hurley just freaked out, which gave him no real information. It does suggest that Abbadon really doesn't know what happened on the island and that his little expedition will end up going very badly...

This shouldn't be a huge surprise, as Naomi herself described the group as a bunch of misfits that she'd have to baby-sit. With her dead and them leaderless on an island that kills people off, one by one, this all seems to be a recipe for disaster. So the answer to what Abbadon meant may not simply refer to the 815'ers, or his people, or Ben's people, or even referring to any residual Dharma people. The answer may be -- all of the above...
100%
Then again, if the O6 made some sort of deal to get off the island but it included a condition that they must stick to some cover story, Abbadon might just be testing to see if "the nutcase" Hurley was unstable enough to spill any secrets. His offer to "upgrade" Hurley may then have been an attempt to get him to a facility where it could be assured such an information leak couldn't happen. Failing this, he asked a sudden interrogation-style question to see if Hurley could be tricked into revealing a yes or no through his surprised reaction. By freaking out, he didn't reveal anything, but he may also have given the impression that he can't be trusted to be stable enough to keep a secret. That could bode ill for the "big guy..."