If Naomi is dead--and it appears she is...who had that flash? Miles was not near her so it couldn't have been him "reading" her. Do you think she's still alive?

This was very odd to me, too. The only time something like this happened was when Nikki and Paulo were having their FBs, and it seemed like they were dead.

Of course, there is a theory that Abaddon is Smokey... so maybe Smokey was having a FB?
I'm mostly joking. But not completely. ;)

This is interesting. In the Expose' commentary, they state that it is one of the rules of the show that they are not allowed to flashback off of a dead character...

Yes, when I saw it I though of Nikki and Paolo too. It's confusing because Miles appears to confirm her death--by "reading" her, so, I'm really confused by this flash. Frankly, I'm really surprised that there isn't already a thread on it!:biggrin:

It wasn't just one person's FB though. We had Miles, Daniel, Charlotte and Frank(?) in their own mini FBs and then we had Naomi but with Abbadon. It could be Abbadon's.

Naomi is giving me the Mikhail vibe. Maybe she doesn't die so easily...

No, there was only Abbadon and Naomi in that flash. So it could be a few things...
1. Naomi is not dead
2. It is Abbadon's flash (but where or who heck is he?)
3. Miles is giving us this flash from a reading of dead Naomi.

That is very interesting. As far as Nicki, dont forget that she wasn't dead during the episode!!! She was buried alive! So she could have been remembering things still.
Now, who had Naomi's flashback? Her or Abaddon?
Anyways, I think that with the introduction of the flashforwards, we could take the flashes as not being actually 'remembered' at the time. Take Hurley's premiere, for instance. He couldn't have remembered each flash because they hadn't happened yet. From now on, this could work for flashbacks also.

If I remember correctly, when they finished the FB they showed her dead body. Maybe the rules for a flashback are just that they show you after they finish your FB...

I said the exact same thing! The only other time this has happened was with Nikki and Paulo, so everyone has now watched out to the fact that people are ALIVE when they show flashbacks. But, the mixed a lot of people's flashbacks together tonight...so that was a little out of the ordinary. And Naomi seemed dead as a door nail to me.

Then again
They are showing Libby's flashbacks sometime soon too and she's dead

I don't know. I got a strange feeling from this FB as well. Not really sure about it at all.
I can't say for sure that she is dead given the island's healing properties.
Then again, if Miles was reading her, shouldn't she be dead?
:34853_huh:
Maybe Miles was reading her but if he has had no experience with the island and what it can do to people, (or maybe the other things going on like the electromagnetic properties) his readings are off???

i'm reading this as, with the flashforwards, the characters don't have knowledge of events that we're seeing. in a way, this might have freed the writer's up to change the rules--before, everything we saw was consciously known by a character. That just doesn't have to be the case anymore.

I said the exact same thing! The only other time this has happened was with Nikki and Paulo, so everyone has now watched out to the fact that people are ALIVE when they show flashbacks. But, the mixed a lot of people's flashbacks together tonight...so that was a little out of the ordinary. And Naomi seemed dead as a door nail to me.

Then again
They are showing Libby's flashbacks sometime soon too and she's dead
Can't figure out how to respond to your spoiler without saying too much. I can't get the spoiler font to work. But in the past flashes from dead characters came from characters who were still alive, but interacted with them at some point in the past.

Wow I didn't know people see these flashbacks as people remembering things, I never have. I just thought it was just a backstory that had a similar theme to what is happening in the present, but not actually being recollected by the character at that moment.

I think there is a chance she is still alive. She's already come back to life once. And they focused on her face for a good while when she was on the stretcher, so.....

There has to be a reason why Naomi was left on the Island. Kate and Daniel wanted to load her into the heli with everything else, but the pilot insisted on leaving her for the second trip.

Why add this dialog if there's no bigger meaning? Perhaps she's about to pull a Mikhail? She looked awfully yellow and decaying-ey though...

I think there is a chance she is still alive. She's already come back to life once. And they focused on her face for a good while when she was on the stretcher, so.....

This is what I am thinking now too. Can't figure out where else this came from.

Plus, we thought she was dead once before, then she went on a double cross trek through the forest before finally dying...hmmmm

Or maybe "Tell my sister I love her" wasn't meant as a code. That could have been Naomi's twin sister on the island and the real Naomi is on the boat.

*ducks as rotten fruits and veggies are lofted at me*

Or maybe "Tell my sister I love her" wasn't meant as a code. That could have been Naomi's twin sister on the island and the real Naomi is on the boat.

*ducks as rotten fruits and veggies are lofted at me*
:no2: No, I can't buy the twin thing, but I think Patchy just might have found himself a girlfriend (Energizer girlfriend--you know, she just keeps on kickin')

I didn't know there were rules to the flashbacks. I thought they were just backstory. I think thats all this was.

There has never been a flashback from the viewpoint of a dead person...so far at least. Nikki and Paolo appeared to have flashes while they were dead.....but we all know what happened there. The dead Naomi flashback is certainly a first, if she is in fact dead.

Maybe it's the flashback of her ghost! This is the second post where I mentioned ghosts...but now that we know there are such things as ghosts in the Lost world (Miles is a ghostbuster), it wouldn't surprise me if it turned out Naomi's ghost is hangin' around.

Honestly, I think it's just a flashback for flashback's sake, just to give us a little more information. It wasn't from anyone's viewpoint. It was just an informational little scene, nothing more, no big theories about twins or nondead people or anything. :p

When Kate and Daniel want to put Naomi's corpse on the helicopter, Myles comments that it's not Naomi, that's just a piece of meat. Many found this odd. Maybe the writers threw it in to indicate that Naomi's spirit or whatever was still around and it was the spirit having the flashback maybe through Myles. But, no doubt, she's dead and if her and Patchy are getting together it's as ghosts.

she must still be alive. can anyone find her name in future credits of episodes?

I have never thought that the flashbacks were the characters remembering something at a certain point in time, but merely a way to tell the character's backstory to the audience. They had to have a way to explain how "The Team" came to be and to give us a little incite into the characters. From the initial scenes with Naomi, I would not have thought she was in charge of the team - but she was. How else would they have done it?

I could have sworn I saw her eyes blink before the camera panned her out of frame. Maybe it was a mistake or I was trying to see something that wasn't there, but I saw it both times I watched the episode.

When Kate and Daniel want to put Naomi's corpse on the helicopter, Myles comments that it's not Naomi, that's just a piece of meat. Many found this odd. Maybe the writers threw it in to indicate that Naomi's spirit or whatever was still around and it was the spirit having the flashback maybe through Myles. But, no doubt, she's dead and if her and Patchy are getting together it's as ghosts.

I had the same exact thought! The word meat was so very odd. Miles genuinely seemed amazed that Kate and Daniel would even go to the trouble. It's as almost Miles felt that there was absolutely no point.

Dying on the island could be like a ticket back to the primary universe where you continue to exist as is. Why bother bringing back a body when you are in a alternate parallel universe in the first place? The primary universe still exists with everything in tact (e.g. Oceanic 815, the passengers are dead, Naomi is still around) but in this alternative universe, some of the passengers survived and Naomi is dead.

The survivors of Oceanic 815 are not suppose to go back, because they are supposed to be dead in the Primary Universe.

Just a thought

:no2: No, I can't buy the twin thing, but I think Patchy just might have found himself a girlfriend (Energizer girlfriend--you know, she just keeps on kickin')



Hilarious!

It was obvious that she knew something before starting her quest..."a dodgy (sp?) situation", worrying about the team being able to handle the situation...

Why wasn't Miles surprised that they were all still alive?

I said the exact same thing! The only other time this has happened was with Nikki and Paulo, so everyone has now watched out to the fact that people are ALIVE when they show flashbacks. But, the mixed a lot of people's flashbacks together tonight...so that was a little out of the ordinary. And Naomi seemed dead as a door nail to me.

Then again
They are showing Libby's flashbacks sometime soon too and she's dead
I think the tptb have said that Libby's story will be told through other people's flashbacks.
I didn't know there were rules to the flashbacks. I thought they were just backstory. I think thats all this was.

Honestly, I think it's just a flashback for flashback's sake, just to give us a little more information. It wasn't from anyone's viewpoint. It was just an informational little scene, nothing more, no big theories about twins or nondead people or anything. :p
I hope this is the case and there is nothing etched in stone saying a character has to be alive and present for a flashback. I think there is so much info. we still need that occurs(ed) between island life and the outside world, that I'll take answers in whatever form they're given.
When Kate and Daniel want to put Naomi's corpse on the helicopter, Myles comments that it's not Naomi, that's just a piece of meat. Many found this odd. Maybe the writers threw it in to indicate that Naomi's spirit or whatever was still around and it was the spirit having the flashback maybe through Myles. But, no doubt, she's dead and if her and Patchy are getting together it's as ghosts.
I thin the "meat" comment was used just to reitterate Mile's ghosbuster status.

So it could be a few things...
1. Naomi is not dead
2. It is Abbadon's flash (but where or who heck is he?)
3. Miles is giving us this flash from a reading of dead Naomi.Good point on Naomi's flashback LiD.. I didn't even catch that they just threw a curve ball in the flashback formula.. I like #1 and # 3... but maybe as we leave the island more and more to show real world events, they're breaking away from formula?

Regarding the post that wondered why all the fuss about not taking her body back--I think that scene was to set up future drama by letting us know that the helicopter has a limited capacity.

Miles has a very unique perspective from doing what he does, to him, Naomi's corpse is just an empty shell, "meat", and it is her spirit that was important, so why bother worrying about the empty shell that is left. His character obviously has social issues, so that is why he is so blunt about it.
Charlotte and Daniel are looking at it from the "leave no man behind" perspective. After all, it appears she was their team leader from the scene with Abbadon.

I'm a strong believer that the flashbacks are not representative of someone on the island "remembering" those particular events. Instead, like others have posted, they are shown to add to the backstory and help explain certain motivations on the part of the characters.

I don't really believe there are any rules to the FB's or FF's. Just because there haven't been any FB's from supposedly dead characters (and no, Nikki and Paulo don't count because they weren't actually dead in Expose, just paralyzed) doesn't mean there can't be FB's from dead characters. People can refer to comments made in podcasts, interviews, and DVD commentaries all they want, but it all comes down to this: TPTB can, and will, do whatever is necessary to tell us the story they want to tell.

Miles has a very unique perspective from doing what he does, to him, Naomi's corpse is just an empty shell, "meat", and it is her spirit that was important, so why bother worrying about the empty shell that is left. His character obviously has social issues, so that is why he is so blunt about it.

I agree wholeheartedly with you on this one.

She's not dead..not a chance

That is the exact technique they used to show Niki was really alive. They moved right to the OPEN eyes after the flashback. They dont do that on most flashbacks.

Lets remember they were all chosen for their special abilities and she was already presumed dead before.

I bet she'll be back, and hopefully the island's ability to resurrect certain people will be addressed.

Well if Miles talked to her maybe she was "still around".

She's not dead..not a chance

That is the exact technique they used to show Niki was really alive. They moved right to the OPEN eyes after the flashback. They dont do that on most flashbacks.

Lets remember they were all chosen for their special abilities and she was already presumed dead before.

I agree with you, I don't think she is dead, not for a minute. Her flash clued us in to the fact that there is MUCH more going on with her story than we anticipated.

Flag in the sand. Can't have a flashback if you're dead. Just sayin'.

Flag in the sand. Can't have a flashback if you're dead. Just sayin'.Oh yea? Says who?

Don't buy it. Not with Miles being able to speak with her. I think that we have to look at the final flashback, not as one for Naomi, but rather one for me, creepy Matthew Abaddon, who is very much still alive (if he is human at all that is).

Maybe it was Matthew's flashback and not Naomi's

Didn't Libby's flashback with Desmond happen after she had died? It's been a while since I've seen that one so don't hold it against me if I'm wrong.

Maybe it was Matthew's flashback and not Naomi's

Boo-Yah!! That's what I was thinking.

She looked pretty dead to me. All pale and pastey. But hey, I'd love it if she wasn't. I really like her character!

Don't buy it. Not with Miles being able to speak with her.

See, this is what I've been saying. If Miles could talk to her, then she was still "there".

hmmm...interesting thought. I was wondering why they left her eyes open. On every show, whenever someone dies with their eyes open, someone always closes them. I assume this is for the actor's comfort, but also 'cause in real life it would just be plain wierd to have a dead body staring at you.

If she is alive, then this would show that Miles is a fake and he was really just speaking with live-Naomi rather than ghost-Naomi.

Well, if Miles can still talk to her then I guess her body may be dead, but she isn't. I think that is why he was brought there, to talk to the dead Dharma bodies and find out what really happened to them, not the story Ben told his higher ups. Miles can talk to anyone who is dead I guess. My question is if he needed to be near Naomi's body to talk to her, how could he talk to that guy in the flashback?

If she could go from being flat on the ground with a knife in her back to being in a tree, then I guess anything's possible. Same with Mikhail with a harpoon in the back to swimming off to kill Charlie. If the harpoon didn't kill him, then did the grenade kill him? Who knows?

Did anybody think the woman back on the boat who spoke on the phone ("Minkowski can't come to the phone right now") sounded EXACTLY like Naomi?

But if Naomi doesn't have a sister, she can't have a twin.

The fact that he had to be by her body made me wonder if she isn't still alive.

Until I rmembered Miles spoke to the dead guy in the room, where he had been haunting. The first thing he asked was where is it happening. That makes me believe he has to be some where that is important to the ghost. In Namoi's case her body.

Did anybody think the woman back on the boat who spoke on the phone ("Minkowski can't come to the phone right now") sounded EXACTLY like Naomi?

But if Naomi doesn't have a sister, she can't have a twin.

Didnt that scene happen where Jack and Kate brought Naomi back to the chopper on the stretcher??

This scene (http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage-1368-596.html)was in the background of this scene (http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage-1368-595.html)


Maybe Im remembering it wrong??

All these year, I never thought that the flashbacks were telling us what a character is thinking at that moment, so I never figured a character had to be alive to have a flashback. I mean, it makes sense that a flashback focus on a current living character. But I always thought the flashbacks were being told from a "third person, omniscient" point of view (if I remember my 7th grade English lessons properly). In other words, the writers (not the characters) are telling us the flashback story, the same way they're telling us the main story. This is supported by the flash forwards. Jack and Hurley weren't having premonitions of their future lives. In "Confirmed Dead", we were getting some background information on how the "rescue mission" originated, and for completeness this flashback had to include Naomi.

This is Lost--please define what you mean by saying "death"and I'll give you my guess on whether she is alive or dead.

Some on the boards believe the female voice on the phone was actress and stuntwoman Zoe Bell, who was listed on the credits. I'm not sure at this point.

The girl on the other end of the phone has an accent that you might describe as a 'London accent'. Not Cockney. It was more of a southern-English accent, whereas Naomi's is a traditional Manchester accent and would be generalised by some as 'Northern'.

Gotta go with lockesmith here. Like the blurring of lines between good and evil, Lost really screws with the popular perceptions of 'dead' and 'alive'

Why, when they closed the eyes and/or covered up every other corpse on this show (and there have been a lot of them), was Naomi being carried around like that? Pale, dead with wide open eyes? I found it really strange. I feel it's supposed to be a hint of something, but it could either mean "she's dead" or "she's alive."

It's clear she has had lots of special ops training, possibly including how to "play dead." Like Patchy, that combination of special ops training, combined with the island healing powers could mean she has nine lives as well.

Now originally when I thought about Naomi not being dead, I thought it was crazy, but now I think she really is alive. What if she was bitten by the Medussa spider?

During TBOTE, Kate did look at Naomi's back and there didn't seem to be a hole in the shirt, just like there's no hole in Locke's shirt anymore from the bullet. At first I thought it might have been to show us that the knife wasn't there anymore, but we already knew that because she held the knife to Kate's throat.

It would also explain Miles's reaction, when he tried to communicate with her "spirit" he couldn't find one so maybe he knew she wasn't dead, and then why he freaked out about putting her on the helicopter, although I don't know why he wouldn't just tell anyone she wasn't dead. Maybe he was hoping he could use her as a "surprise" to get back the upper hand from Sayid and Jack.

Naomi's face also looked very similar to Nikki's in color, and why didn't someone ever close her eyes? No one ever closed Paulo's and Nikki's eyes either.

Besides, how do we really know that Miles "spoke" to Naomi's spirit? I'm onboard with the "Naomi is alive" theory!

I'd just like to say that this is a very interesting thread. Kudos to Deland for starting it! :cool:

The point about the non-closure of the eyes is an intriguing one. As someone has already said - we have always seen the dead's eyelids closed in Lost. It's a common-used technique to communicate two things:

1) The person is actually dead (or as dead as people can be in Lost :D)

2) The person is at peace

The latter of these is what intrigues me here, because it would link up with Mile's flashback. The 'ghost' in that flashback was clearly not at peace, and still able to communicate with the 'real world'. Perhaps the writers were showing us that Naomi was not at peace, and therefore able to have a flashback at that point.

Regarding Locke's t-shirt - I think he simply changed shirts. I'm a big Locke fan, and he seems to have lots of that style of t-shirt. The lack of a kidney operation scar is more telling than a lack of a hole in his shirt.

M

Now originally when I thought about Naomi not being dead, I thought it was crazy, but now I think she really is alive. What if she was bitten by the Medussa spider?

During TBOTE, Kate did look at Naomi's back and there didn't seem to be a hole in the shirt, just like there's no hole in Locke's shirt anymore from the bullet. At first I thought it might have been to show us that the knife wasn't there anymore, but we already knew that because she held the knife to Kate's throat.

It would also explain Miles's reaction, when he tried to communicate with her "spirit" he couldn't find one so maybe he knew she wasn't dead, and then why he freaked out about putting her on the helicopter, although I don't know why he wouldn't just tell anyone she wasn't dead. Maybe he was hoping he could use her as a "surprise" to get back the upper hand from Sayid and Jack.

Naomi's face also looked very similar to Nikki's in color, and why didn't someone ever close her eyes? No one ever closed Paulo's and Nikki's eyes either.

Besides, how do we really know that Miles "spoke" to Naomi's spirit? I'm onboard with the "Naomi is alive" theory!

I doubt she was bitten by the spider. After being gutted by a tree 4 days before and getting stabbed in the back, the spider's venom would probably be enough to kill her. I doubt her body could have survived the shock. They did close Nikki and Paulo's eyes. That's why it was supposed to be a shock when Nikki opened her eyes as the dirt started coming down into their grave. Why would Miles lie about speaking to Naomi's spirit? He already didn't trust Jack or Kate. What would be the point of pretending to go along with their story of how Naomi died?

The point about the non-closure of the eyes is an intriguing one. As someone has already said - we have always seen the dead's eyelids closed in Lost. It's a common-used technique to communicate two things:

1) The person is actually dead (or as dead as people can be in Lost :D)

2) The person is at peace

The latter of these is what intrigues me here, because it would link up with Mile's flashback. The 'ghost' in that flashback was clearly not at peace, and still able to communicate with the 'real world'. Perhaps the writers were showing us that Naomi was not at peace, and therefore able to have a flashback at that point.

Regarding Locke's t-shirt - I think he simply changed shirts. I'm a big Locke fan, and he seems to have lots of that style of t-shirt. The lack of a kidney operation scar is more telling than a lack of a hole in his shirt.

M

This seems the most sensible to me.

We've never seen a flashback of a dead person with the exception of Nikki and Paolo but they weren't dead. My theory is that this flashback was of Abaddon.

Why would we see a flashback of Abaddon if he isn't on the island? Or, maybe he is? The camera usually zooms in on the person before the flashback of that person begins. We didn't see Abaddon before the flashback. I doubt it's his flashback.

Why would we see a flashback of Abaddon if he isn't on the island? Or, maybe he is? The camera usually zooms in on the person before the flashback of that person begins. We didn't see Abaddon before the flashback. I doubt it's his flashback.

Good point the camera usually does zoom in on the person before their flashback. So maybe it's a flashback of Naomi's spirit? Since Miles was there and he talked to her. I think I'm just confusing myself the more I try to figure it out :confused:

I doubt she was bitten by the spider. After being gutted by a tree 4 days before and getting stabbed in the back, the spider's venom would probably be enough to kill her. I doubt her body could have survived the shock. They did close Nikki and Paulo's eyes. That's why it was supposed to be a shock when Nikki opened her eyes as the dirt started coming down into their grave. Why would Miles lie about speaking to Naomi's spirit? He already didn't trust Jack or Kate. What would be the point of pretending to go along with their story of how Naomi died?

Well we're not too sure about the properties of the island are we?;)

She technically wasn't gutted by a tree, but had a through and through wound that had punctured a lung. Mikhail said that she would be healed in a day and a half at most, so she would have been completely healed from that wound if it had been 4 days. The bite from the Medussa spider slows the heart rate down, and therefore would slow the rate at which she would bleed.

Thanks for clarifying about Nikki and Paolo's eyes being closed. So why then were Naomi's eyes left open, when all other dead bodies had their eyes closed? To possibly show how similar they looked to Nikki's?

Miles lying about her, I'm not too sure though, but a possible explanation would be that it would come as a shock to Jack, Kate, Sayid and Juliet, and he would hope that they would then gain the upper hand.

This episode was a flashback of the frieghter crew, and Naomi was part of that crew. So she gets a FB scene. Makes sense to me!

In the previews for next week on ABC.com Naomi (at least her body) is still around in a scene with Sayid it seems odd her dead body is still there next week
I think it's her flashback & so far it's always been as if the character was thinking about the past to me and the flashes have always come from a live person including N & P Seems there is still some mystery here.

Didn't Libby's flashback with Desmond happen after she had died? It's been a while since I've seen that one so don't hold it against me if I'm wrong.

No, that flashback was Desmond's...he was recalling his off-island encounter with Libby.

Libby's only flashback was at the very end of "Dave," when she remembers having watched Hurley from afar in Santa Rosa.

You can always tell whose perspective a FB is from, because the camera always focuses on that character when the FB ends.

For example, the first scene in "The Exodus - Part 1" is a flashback from Walt's perspective...even though the FB ends and cuts to a scene of Walt and Michael sleeping on the ground next to each other, Walt is the first one to open his eyes, which implies that Walt was the one having the FB.

Then in Part 2, the scene at the airport where Michael talks to his mother on the payphone (begging her to take Walt; and Walt overhears) is clearly told from Michael's perspective, since the FB ends and cuts to Michael fully conscious on the raft, watching Walt, who is sleeping.

Same thing with Libby...when she has the FB at the end of "Dave," the camera focuses on Libby (and her facial expression is prominent in the shot) before cutting to the FB.

In Naomi's case, since Naomi appears to be dead, it's an interesting situation to speculate: however, my theory is that perhaps the FB of Naomi and Abbadon was the last thing Naomi thought of before taking her final breaths - - so it was a FB of Naomi's final memories, shown to us posthumously.

The open eyes seem to be a clue.

Lost starts with Jack's eyes opening. This device has been used at other times throughout the series.

At this point the outside world thinks Jack is dead. At the end of Season 3 Jack knew it was wrong to get off the island and wanted to go back. Maybe Adam and Eve are the"meat" of Jack and Kate. :) They can't be alive both places. That's why Desmond can't be with Penny??? I wonder also if this is why the pilot and Miles were so upset seeing the newsreels of the 815 flight. They 'left' someone back on the island to get the Losties back???

It's the reverse with Naomi. The island world thinks she is dead, but maybe the real world thinks she's not.

Another possibility is that maybe "tell my sister I love her" means "I'm in trouble, they're trying to kill me, I'm gonna play possum (or take a drug to make me appear dead). Then she'll be left on the island to do whatever they came to do (get Ben). The ghostbuster is a bit of a scam artist, so it is entirely possible that he needed to get to her body to give her the antidote to come out of her 'death' state.

I don't know.

Originally I thought they were using the eye device for a 'point of view' perspective. No I think the eyes may be the 'portal' between the living and spirit worlds.

The open eyes seem to be a clue.

Lost starts with Jack's eyes opening. This device has been used at other times throughout the series.

At this point the outside world thinks Jack is dead. At the end of Season 3 Jack knew it was wrong to get off the island and wanted to go back. Maybe Adam and Eve are the"meat" of Jack and Kate. :) They can't be alive both places. That's why Desmond can't be with Penny??? I wonder also if this is why the pilot and Miles were so upset seeing the newsreels of the 815 flight. They 'left' someone back on the island to get the Losties back???

It's the reverse with Naomi. The island world thinks she is dead, but maybe the real world thinks she's not.

Another possibility is that maybe "tell my sister I love her" means "I'm in trouble, they're trying to kill me, I'm gonna play possum (or take a drug to make me appear dead). Then she'll be left on the island to do whatever they came to do (get Ben). The ghostbuster is a bit of a scam artist, so it is entirely possible that he needed to get to her body to give her the antidote to come out of her 'death' state.

I don't know.

Originally I thought they were using the eye device for a 'point of view' perspective. No I think the eyes may be the 'portal' between the living and spirit worlds.

She's definitely dead. People are reading too much into this.

There has to be a reason why Naomi was left on the Island. Kate and Daniel wanted to load her into the heli with everything else, but the pilot insisted on leaving her for the second trip.

Why add this dialog if there's no bigger meaning? Perhaps she's about to pull a Mikhail? She looked awfully yellow and decaying-ey though...

I think that this dialog was there for a few meanings:

-to establish that their is very limited space available for passengers until the chopper refuels. Supports the idea of only 6 making it all the way back to the mainland.

-to explain why it took the chopper SO LONG to get to to the island when they were only 80 nautical miles away.

-to illustrate character: Miles has no interest in bodies, only spirits; That Miles is crap communicating with the living; Daniel is so sensitive that he's prioritize a dead body over a living survivor (and this also speaks to their true mission, which does not involve the Lostaways); and that Lapidus is practical.

All these year, I never thought that the flashbacks were telling us what a character is thinking at that moment, so I never figured a character had to be alive to have a flashback. I mean, it makes sense that a flashback focus on a current living character. But I always thought the flashbacks were being told from a "third person, omniscient" point of view (if I remember my 7th grade English lessons properly). In other words, the writers (not the characters) are telling us the flashback story, the same way they're telling us the main story. This is supported by the flash forwards. Jack and Hurley weren't having premonitions of their future lives. In "Confirmed Dead", we were getting some background information on how the "rescue mission" originated, and for completeness this flashback had to include Naomi.

There are no omniscient shots in the show. Everything is shot from a point-of-view, especially flashbacks. The POV represents what the character knows, not their "actual" point in spacetime. You can't know if you're dead.

Naomi is not dead.

Faraday has a panic attack because of the helicopter jump which triggered his flashback.

Miles gains an ability via flashback. Scam artist before, special afterwards.

Memories of past and future selves, laminated together.

It's turtles all the way down.

Why would we see a flashback of Abaddon if he isn't on the island? Or, maybe he is? The camera usually zooms in on the person before the flashback of that person begins. We didn't see Abaddon before the flashback. I doubt it's his flashback.
But the flashback is about the 4 people who landed on the island, and it showed us how they were chosen (kinda), and who chose them. I think that's why we were shown that piece.

This episode was a flashback of the frieghter crew, and Naomi was part of that crew. So she gets a FB scene. Makes sense to me!
Yeah, I agree with this also. Naomi was there and alive for part of the episode. Miles was communicating with her, so maybe she was able to 'show' him this.

She's definitely dead. People are reading too much into this.
I think so too.

There are no omniscient shots in the show. Everything is shot from a point-of-view, especially flashbacks. The POV represents what the character knows, not their "actual" point in spacetime. You can't know if you're dead.

Naomi is not dead.

Faraday has a panic attack because of the helicopter jump which triggered his flashback.

Miles gains an ability via flashback. Scam artist before, special afterwards.

Memories of past and future selves, laminated together.

It's turtles all the way down.


What ability did Miles gain from having a flashback? I think this whole flashback thing is being taken too literally. It's not the character actually having a flashback. It's just backstory about the character that informs their behavior on the island. In the case of the flash-forwards it seems that these are stories showing us what will happen and when we go back to the island we get to see the very beginnings of those events. I really don't think Faraday landed on the Island and then thought back to when he was watching TV and crying.

Who says the flashbacks must be someone alive remembering something? They are just a device the programme makers use for filling in little bits of pertinent back-history, nothing more.

I think Naomi was bitten by an Arnzt spider (a la Nikki/Paulo) and will wake up. Or, she had a capsule with this spider compound (Dharma's biological research) that she swallowed to allow her to appear dead for a while.

All these year, I never thought that the flashbacks were telling us what a character is thinking at that moment, so I never figured a character had to be alive to have a flashback. I mean, it makes sense that a flashback focus on a current living character. But I always thought the flashbacks were being told from a "third person, omniscient" point of view (if I remember my 7th grade English lessons properly). In other words, the writers (not the characters) are telling us the flashback story, the same way they're telling us the main story. This is supported by the flash forwards. Jack and Hurley weren't having premonitions of their future lives. In "Confirmed Dead", we were getting some background information on how the "rescue mission" originated, and for completeness this flashback had to include Naomi.

My vote is for this interpretation !! BTW, this is the same freakin' discussion we were having last season, and I've yet to see any evidence on-screen at all that the characters are actually having a 'flashback' - they NEVER react as if they were daydreaming, they NEVER suddenly change a course of action based on their 'flashback', etcetera. Try this on - IF this were a book, the FB/FFs might be written in an italic font, to show they were a piece of the story told out of place.

Now, I seem to recall Sawyer may have traditionally 'flashed back' in rage for a few seconds when he was offing Locke's dad. Am I wrong on that ? And Claire had flashbacks of a sort to her kidnapping, but once again it was obvious that she was recalling the events -she mentions it. And Desmond's apparent time-travel memories are always mentioned as such, he doesn't seem to act on every 'FB' that we've seen him in. Eko & Locke had visions of sorts, but once again those were clearly spelled out as such.

Can any of you "they're actually having a flashback" supporters pick out any others of the ( what must be 150+) 'FB's by now that actually seemed to be acted on or even acknowledged (heck, I'll settle for a quizzical expression on their face at the end of the 'FB') by the character 'having' it ? Maybe someone who knows how should set up a sticky poll, and we can resolve this like civilized human beings - vote on it in a meaningless and ultimately futile gesture of camaraderie.;)

Until then, I'm making like a Zax and not budging- 3rd Person Omniscient POV For Life !!

-UnklBob, AUSTX via NOLA

BTW, this is the same freakin' discussion we were having last season, and I've yet to see any evidence on-screen at all that the characters are actually having a 'flashback' - they NEVER react as if they were daydreaming, they NEVER suddenly change a course of action based on their 'flashback', etcetera. This is my take on the FB's, too. I think it's just a dramatic device for storytelling purposes.

But! Why were Dead Naomi's eyes still open? Not only is it a film/television trope to always have someone manually closing a dead person's eyes, but it would have made the scenes much easier for the actress if she was allowed to close them. So TPTB must have had her keep her eyes open for a reason. The question is, were they just trying to fake us out after the Pikki episode, or was it just a way to segue back from the Naomi flashback using the formula they'd already established long ago?

Booga, I think they were going out of their way to both show that she was dead and that she was recently dead. Those contact lenses they popped onto her (her eyes were an extremely dark brown, so dark that you can't differentiate a pupil, when she was alive) were meant to show a major change in her state of being.

She is dead dead dead dead dead.

There is no RULE that only the living can have a FB, or a FF. That's a fan convention, not anything that is hard in fast in the writer's room.

There is no RULE that only the living can have a FB, or a FF. That's a fan convention, not anything that is hard in fast in the writer's room.

While I love the "Naomi is not dead" theory, and hope it's true, I agree that her FB could easily be attributed to it being a "Team Abaddon" Flashback. Her having a flashback is not what makes me think she may be alive, I just love twists, that's why I find LOST so enjoyable!

Naomi is giving me the Mikhail vibe. Maybe she doesn't die so easily...

I got that same feeling....it just didn't "feel" like she was dead. It was weird.

Her having a flashback is not what makes me think she may be alive, I just love twists, that's why I find LOST so enjoyable!Yeah, but they've already done that so many times (even with Naomi herself) that the real twist would be she's actually dead this time...

Here's something odd. When Miles is with Naomi's "dead" body he actually he says something backwards:


Sounds pretty clearly like "Gotta see it through", when it's played in reversed.


Possible evidence that Naomi could be alive? But why backwards?

The audio can be heard on Dark's site.

Okay, a few things:

FBs are only told through someone who is living. How do we know this? Because TPTB specifically told us that when Libby died that we would not be able to get her back story FROM HER. They've told us time and again that we will get her story, but it has to be from other people, BECAUSE SHE IS DEAD.

That does NOT mean that the characters on the show are literally having the memories, nor does it mean that those with flash forwards are having premonitions. It means that TPTB have a storytelling device, and it used to show back or future story with characters and show how their behaviors are shaped by the past, present adn future. I believe that the storytelling device is used to show the general mindset of the character at the time (for the FBs). I think for the FFs, we are meant to think that they are thinking about what is happening on island. In other words, the island storyline is shaping their mindset in the future.

The other reason I am positive of this? Because of Nikki and Paulo. That episode-ending surprise would never have worked if the convention hadn't already been set up that only living people have FBs. Here we were thinking throughout the episode "Weird. A dead person having FBs. That's new!" and then they turned that on it's head, saying "Nope, we actually weren't doing that. It doesn't work that way on Lost."

Lastly, if Naomi is actually dead, they better have a good explanation of how that FB occurred, because it makes no sense to me as a viewer.

Okay, a few things:

FBs are only told through someone who is living. How do we know this? Because TPTB specifically told us that when Libby died that we would not be able to get her back story FROM HER. They've told us time and again that we will get her story, but it has to be from other people, BECAUSE SHE IS DEAD.

That does NOT mean that the characters on the show are literally having the memories, nor does it mean that those with flash forwards are having premonitions. It means that TPTB have a storytelling device, and it used to show back or future story with characters and show how their behaviors are shaped by the past, present adn future. I believe that the storytelling device is used to show the general mindset of the character at the time (for the FBs). I think for the FFs, we are meant to think that they are thinking about what is happening on island. In other words, the island storyline is shaping their mindset in the future.

The other reason I am positive of this? Because of Nikki and Paulo. That episode-ending surprise would never have worked if the convention hadn't already been set up that only living people have FBs. Here we were thinking throughout the episode "Weird. A dead person having FBs. That's new!" and then they turned that on it's head, saying "Nope, we actually weren't doing that. It doesn't work that way on Lost."

Lastly, if Naomi is actually dead, they better have a good explanation of how that FB occurred, because it makes no sense to me as a viewer.

1) did TPTB ever say that we also wouldn't get any back story on Naomi from her flashbacks? Or that we would get more back story from Naomi but only from other living people? They only said it for Libby, and i'm willing to bet when they did, they hadn't thought about or even conceived of the naomi flashback scene in question.

2) it makes sense to us viewers because we are used to seeing scenes that happen in the past to clarify what we see in the present.

and i think the reason TPTB said we'd learn more about libby through other people's flashbacks is because it would be very odd to suddenly have a libby backstory on the island for no reason at all. it wasn't odd to see the naomi/abbadon scene because it was directly related to the story we were being told in that episode.

Here's an idea. The FB we saw of Naomi and Abaddon wasn't one directly "experienced" by Naomi; it was one "seen" by Miles. We know that he has the ability to communicate with the dead. Perhaps he was experiencing the FB of Naomi and Abaddon through his communication with Naomi. So, in a sense, he was having the FB, via Naomi.

Please excuse me if this is oversimplifying, but I took the Naomi FB as I did the other freighties... as a collective FB. Meaning that it was a back story for the group. To me, since it was a group thing, there is no need to separate Naomi because of her death....

Obviously, they were broken into segments, but I ***-U-ME-D that they split it up for clarity, not ownership of the FB....

I could be totally off here, but just my take on it.

I'm not sure what you mean by a collective FB. Do you mean one where a group remembers or thinks about the same, shared event? If so, I don't think it would apply to this episode, because clearly, the FBs were distinctly separate experiences. The only other thing I can think of that's closest to what we had here was in Exodus. But even so, we would be pretty sure about whose FB it was, based on who was featured in a specific scene. This FB thing with Naomi is pretty ambiguous, though, because it appears to be her FB, and yet she's dead.

I'm not sure what you mean by a collective FB. Do you mean one where a group remembers or thinks about the same, shared event? If so, I don't think it would apply to this episode, because clearly, the FBs were distinctly separate experiences. The only other thing I can think of that's closest to what we had here was in Exodus. But even so, we would be pretty sure about whose FB it was, based on who was featured in a specific scene. This FB thing with Naomi is pretty ambiguous, though, because it appears to be her FB, and yet she's dead.


When I said "collective" I was thinking group, but I see your point. If we take the "no dead people FBs" literally, I would have to assume (scary) that either she is still kickin' (a la Patchy) or it was Abaddon's FB..... so basically I have nothin'..... LOL:)

When I said "collective" I was thinking group, but I see your point. If we take the "no dead people FBs" literally, I would have to assume (scary) that either she is still kickin' (a la Patchy) or it was Abaddon's FB..... so basically I have nothin'..... LOL:)

Well, we'll see what tptb have up their sleeves soon enough!:biggrin:

A little food for thought...the titles of the episodes often have double meanings. The passengers of Flight 815 are "Confirmed Dead," but Naomi is apparently "Confirmed Dead" in this episode, as well. Of course, we know they aren't really all dead.
Think "Two for the Road." Not only were Libby and Ana Lucia leaving because of that episode, but it set into motion the events that led to Michael and Walt leaving, also. Another "Two for the Road..."


Also, I agree with LostLaura. There have to be some story-telling conventions or it's a cheat. The only way the flashback wasn't for a living Naomi, imho, is if it was Abaddon's flashback. There have been times when an episode was split up in such a way that it was difficult to tell who's flashback we were seeing, ie. "Special." One had to pay close attention to realize that Walt knew all along that Michael was lying when he said Brian wanted to keep him but that it wasn't his choice. He knew that Michael told him a lie to spare him the knowledge that Brian didn't want him. Most of the flashbacks in that episode were Michael's POV. This one all-important one was Walt's.

I'm agnostic as to whether or not Naomi is really dead or alive at this point, but the episode title is making me think twice about it. I may have to watch it again...:roflmao:

How about this for a radical idea - we stop using the term "Flashback"? I know, this is the term TPTB have used, and it would be nearly impossible to get very many people on the various discussion boards/blogs to stop using that term, being that it's been ingrained in our minds since day one. But I think it is a misnomer. It implies that the characters are actually thinking about those specific events at the specific time we're seeing them, which I and others here have stated we don't believe is the case. Some people here have used the term "backstory", and I think its a MUCH more appropriate term. It doesn't have the implication that a character is "flashing back" to a prior event in their lives. "Backstory" just means the writers are showing us "scenes that happen in the past to clarify what we see in the present" as duckab234 said. No "ownership" is implied with "backstory".

How about this for a radical idea - we stop using the term "Flashback"? I know, this is the term TPTB have used, and it would be nearly impossible to get very many people on the various discussion boards/blogs to stop using that term, being that it's been ingrained in our minds since day one. But I think it is a misnomer. It implies that the characters are actually thinking about those specific events at the specific time we're seeing them, which I and others here have stated we don't believe is the case. Some people here have used the term "backstory", and I think its a MUCH more appropriate term. It doesn't have the implication that a character is "flashing back" to a prior event in their lives. "Backstory" just means the writers are showing us "scenes that happen in the past to clarify what we see in the present" as duckab234 said. No "ownership" is implied with "backstory".

They've always struck me as actual flashbacks ... they seem tied in to something that is currently happening to the character.

Of course they'd just be getting the impression of the memory, triggered by the current event, whereas we get to see the whole thing in detail.

They also fill the narrative objective of giving us backstory too.

Okay, a few things:

FBs are only told through someone who is living. How do we know this? Because TPTB specifically told us that when Libby died that we would not be able to get her back story FROM HER. They've told us time and again that we will get her story, but it has to be from other people, BECAUSE SHE IS DEAD.

That does NOT mean that the characters on the show are literally having the memories, nor does it mean that those with flash forwards are having premonitions. It means that TPTB have a storytelling device, and it used to show back or future story with characters and show how their behaviors are shaped by the past, present adn future. I believe that the storytelling device is used to show the general mindset of the character at the time (for the FBs). I think for the FFs, we are meant to think that they are thinking about what is happening on island. In other words, the island storyline is shaping their mindset in the future.

The other reason I am positive of this? Because of Nikki and Paulo. That episode-ending surprise would never have worked if the convention hadn't already been set up that only living people have FBs. Here we were thinking throughout the episode "Weird. A dead person having FBs. That's new!" and then they turned that on it's head, saying "Nope, we actually weren't doing that. It doesn't work that way on Lost."

Lastly, if Naomi is actually dead, they better have a good explanation of how that FB occurred, because it makes no sense to me as a viewer.

I can see why you and some others have interpreted the Libby thing to mean that only live characters can have FB's, but I think you might be overlooking something here.

Yes, Libby, Nikki & Paulo are all now dead.

They are also buried and out of the action entirely. Personally, I think that is why from here on out, any of their backstory would need to be told via another character.

While I believe Naomi to be dead, she hadn't yet left the action or active story, making it possible to focus on her and tell a bit more about how the freighter team ended up coming to the island.

Just another way to look at it, staying within what TPTB have told us.

They've always struck me as actual flashbacks ... they seem tied in to something that is currently happening to the character.

Of course they'd just be getting the impression of the memory, triggered by the current event, whereas we get to see the whole thing in detail.

They also fill the narrative objective of giving us backstory too.
I agree with all of your points, except for the term "actual flashbacks." And, I would like to point out that everything you're saying is applicable if you use the term "backstory" instead of "flashback". Also, even if the term "backstory" is used, the story can still be told from the perspective of a certain character, and can be interpreted as the memory of that character.

"Actual flashback" implies that at the precise moment we are shown the flashback, that character is thinking about the actual event that occurs in the flashback. Yes, as you said, they wouldn't think about the thing in detail, they already have the entire memory of the event in their mind, and that event happens to pop in their mind at that moment. While I agree that in many instances you could make a case for this, there are many others where this doesn't really seem realistic. For example - Miles flashback. Here he is, in a tense situation with a gun aimed at Jack, trying to find out where Naomi is, and at that precise moment, he remembers the time he went to the house of the murdered kid and got a bunch of money out of the deal? Doubtful. And of course right after the "flashback", Miles blurts out "I will know" (about how Naomi died if he sees her body), which makes sense to us because we just found out that he's a ghost whisperer. So I would not say that Miles had a "flashback" - I would say the writers told us his "backstory".

I can see why you and some others have interpreted the Libby thing to mean that only live characters can have FB's, but I think you might be overlooking something here.
Does anyone know where we can get the transcripts of the audio commentaries on the DVDs? Horowitz and Kitzis specifically said during Expose that it is a rule of the writing team that only living characters can have flashbacks. I checked Lostpedia, but they don't have the commentaries written out.

Nope, but I could always transcribe that part of my DVD commentary tonight! :biggrin:

In "The Man Behind the Curtain," we see Ben's birth. Ben can't possibly remember that. Therefore, a flashback doesn't necessarily mean a person is remembering it, and I see no reason why a dead character can't have a flashback.

How about this for a radical idea - we stop using the term "Flashback"? I know, this is the term TPTB have used, and it would be nearly impossible to get very many people on the various discussion boards/blogs to stop using that term, being that it's been ingrained in our minds since day one. But I think it is a misnomer. It implies that the characters are actually thinking about those specific events at the specific time we're seeing them, which I and others here have stated we don't believe is the case. Some people here have used the term "backstory", and I think its a MUCH more appropriate term. It doesn't have the implication that a character is "flashing back" to a prior event in their lives. "Backstory" just means the writers are showing us "scenes that happen in the past to clarify what we see in the present" as duckab234 said. No "ownership" is implied with "backstory".

This is part of what I was TRYING (poorly) to express with my "collective FB" comment... that the scenes were all part of a backstory for the characters on the freighter. THankfully, you are more eloquent than I.....

THANKS !!!

In "The Man Behind the Curtain," we see Ben's birth. Ben can't possibly remember that. Therefore, a flashback doesn't necessarily mean a person is remembering it, and I see no reason why a dead character can't have a flashback.

Ben would presumably have been aware of the circumstances of his birth and could have been thinking of them. We get to see the actual events that he is thinking of, in a narrative.

After all, if all the flashbacks were were purely memories-based they'd all be shot from a first person perspective.

I always thought the flashbacks were memories, the characters remembering things that where being triggered by what was happening to them on the island.

Then Expose happened.

I contend Expose is just like the Pilot. The name itself is such an obvious clue that we overlook it. Yes, Nikki was in a show called Expose, and yes, we are exposed to "behind the scenes" info through flashbacks. But what if what we were being Exposed...was the nature of the flashbacks themselves.

In Expose, we learn in the Pearl station that Ben is devising a plan around Jack, Kate and Saywer and Micheal...mainly to perform his "miracle" surgery....this is on island time the same time as The Hunting Party in season 2.

Micheal is "brought" into the plan by the use of the computer in Hunting Party. That eppisodes flashbacks...have Jack performing the same surgery on the Italian that he would later perform on Ben.

hmmm...I thought to myself. The Hunting Party was an eppisode that aired during season 2...before Ben was even introduced. Thats a pretty big coincidence. Two eppisodes...written probably a year apart....tie so perfectly together? Jack's flashback to performing a the same surgery on a "mysterious" figure, with a complicated woman convincing him to do it...happening at the extact same time in real time...as a mysterious man needing that same surgery is trying to figure out a plan to get Jack to do the surgery?

The eppisodes surrounding the Hunting Party? Flashback eppisodes for Sawyer and Kate...as well as some verrrry strange "visions" for Eko and Chaz....characters that would end up having reprecussions later on?

One of the wierdest co-incidences....is that after the eppisode The Hunting Party...a few days later on the island...Hurley and Sayid are sitting on the beach with the radio and Moonlight Sonata comes through on the radio.

In the Hunting Party flashback...Jacks marriage is comng to an end...and another flashback will show us, a few days after this happens Jack is sitting in his car...watching Sara and her new man....listening to....Moonlight Sonata.

Is the Hunting Party really a reference to Ben and the Others going back (or sideways) in time...hunting down the best way to make what they need to happen...happen.

If Naomi is dead--and it appears she is...who had that flash? Miles was not near her so it couldn't have been him "reading" her. Do you think she's still alive?

I don't think there's any reason to believe that every flashback is actually being remembered or thought of by the main character at the time we see it. They are for our benefit, to put current events into perspective.

Is the Hunting Party really a reference to Ben and the Others going back (or sideways) in time...hunting down the best way to make what they need to happen...happen.

That's a good post. It fits in with the idea of the 'black box' on the Island being able to make things happen to fit a desired outcome by subtly influencing the outcome of a series of events. (Ben needs a specialist surgeon so a sequence of events lead to a plane crashing on the Island - literally bringing such a surgeon falling out of the sky. Ben even commented on it)

Maybe a lot of the flashbacks are clues as to why the characters are there - in order to fulfil some function or other on the Island. Maybe the connections are there between the characters because character B needed to be influenced by something character A did in order to end up on the Island.

A little food for thought...the titles of the episodes often have double meanings. The passengers of Flight 815 are "Confirmed Dead," but Naomi is apparently "Confirmed Dead" in this episode, as well. Of course, we know they aren't really all dead.
Think "Two for the Road." Not only were Libby and Ana Lucia leaving because of that episode, but it set into motion the events that led to Michael and Walt leaving, also. Another "Two for the Road..."



i think the double entendre for "Two For the Road" was Libby and Ana Lucia "leaving", and also Ana Lucia and Christian Shephard going to Australia together.

In "The Man Behind the Curtain," we see Ben's birth. Ben can't possibly remember that. Therefore, a flashback doesn't necessarily mean a person is remembering it, and I see no reason why a dead character can't have a flashback.I don't necessarily think the person has to be remembering it at that moment either -- I don't think remembering has to happen for the rule of the character being alive to have meaning.

Nope, but I could always transcribe that part of my DVD commentary tonight! :biggrin:
What a noble sacrifice! To subject yourself to that episode for the good of this community - you are to be commended! :)

I don't necessarily think the person has to be remembering it at that moment either -- I don't think remembering has to happen for the rule of the character being alive to have meaning.

I agree. What I've been trying to say that is that the FBs gives us context for the situation the characters is in on the island. FFs are a different version of that same idea. The characters are not literally remembering at that time, but the character does need to be alive.

What a noble sacrifice! To subject yourself to that episode for the good of this community - you are to be commended! :)

Good point... I'm not sure I CAN sit throught that one again.... so maybe I won't. ;) We'll see.

When Kate and Daniel want to put Naomi's corpse on the helicopter, Myles comments that it's not Naomi, that's just a piece of meat. Many found this odd. Maybe the writers threw it in to indicate that Naomi's spirit or whatever was still around and it was the spirit having the flashback maybe through Myles. But, no doubt, she's dead and if her and Patchy are getting together it's as ghosts. I thought that they showed her body a lot longer than usual. Especially her face. Mostly they will show dead bodies only briefly but there was quite a long shot of Naomi being carried to the helicopter.:cool:

How about this for a radical idea - we stop using the term "Flashback"? I know, this is the term TPTB have used, and it would be nearly impossible to get very many people on the various discussion boards/blogs to stop using that term, being that it's been ingrained in our minds since day one. But I think it is a misnomer. It implies that the characters are actually thinking about those specific events at the specific time we're seeing them, which I and others here have stated we don't believe is the case. Some people here have used the term "backstory", and I think its a MUCH more appropriate term. It doesn't have the implication that a character is "flashing back" to a prior event in their lives. "Backstory" just means the writers are showing us "scenes that happen in the past to clarify what we see in the present" as duckab234 said. No "ownership" is implied with "backstory".

That would be fine if it was just a "term TPTB have used." Flashback is the literary term for what they are doing. It is not simply a confusing choice of words. Flashback refers to an internal analepsis (http://www.cla.purdue.edu/English/theory/narratology/terms/analepsis.html). It is not necessarily a "memory." It is, however, told from a point of view.

i think the double entendre for "Two For the Road" was Libby and Ana Lucia "leaving", and also Ana Lucia and Christian Shephard going to Australia together.

Ha! I forgot about that. Yes, I think you are right. Nevertheless, I think an argument can be made that Michael and Walt may have been referenced here also. It's just something we would not have seen at the time the episode aired, but it is abundantly clear in retrospect.

That would be fine if it was just a "term TPTB have used." Flashback is the literary term for what they are doing. It is not simply a confusing choice of words. Flashback refers to an internal analepsis (http://www.cla.purdue.edu/English/theory/narratology/terms/analepsis.html). It is not necessarily a "memory." It is, however, told from a point of view.

Thanks for the clarification - I was unaware that there was a formal literary definition of the term. But I do think if you were to ask many people here how they define "flashback", they'd use the word "memory".

Ummm, aren't the flashbacks just a tool used by TPTB to tell the story?


And on a side note, I think this answers the questions regarding whether or not last weeks eppy was flash-forwards or flashbacks. Obviously a flashback.

The characters are not literally remembering at that time, but the character does need to be alive.

Says who?

She had just past away, her friend had just shown up and talked to her with his ability. It seems to be an appropriate time to show the viewers how she ended up there.

Its the writers show, they can do what they wish.

:biggrin:ottomatic, now I have that Pointer Sisters song "Automatic" in my head.

Says who?
Horowitz and Kitzis said it during the commentary for Expose, that it is a rule for the writers. Granted, they may have changed it since then, but since it was so intimately tied to the surprise in that ep, I'd be surprised. That being said, are you all going to make me watch all of Expose again just to get the quote? :rolleyes:

Jenny, I'm gonna turn it on in the background right now. Do you have any idea at what point int he episode they say it? I presume it's right at the end? I'll start there, in the hopes that I don't have to watch the whole thing.

I watched it! LOL
Good thing it comes at 11:34 in the commentary. I don't know whose voice is whose, sorry:

First one: "One of the things we did in this episode which was we seemingly broke one of our rules, which is that you only flash back off of living people."
The other one interrupts: "Which is still true."
First one: "Right. And in this episode, we seem to break that rule until you realize at the end that they're not really dead."

They go on to say that flashing off the "corpses" was meant as a clue for "astute viewers" to wonder if they are changing the rule of only flashing off the living.

Thanks, Jenny! :biggrin:

I watched it! LOL
Good thing it comes at 11:34 in the commentary. I don't know whose voice is whose, sorry:

First one: "One of the things we did in this episode which was we seemingly broke one of our rules, which is that you only flash back off of living people."
The other one interrupts: "Which is still true."
First one: "Right. And in this episode, we seem to break that rule until you realize at the end that they're not really dead."

They go on to say that flashing off the "corpses" was meant as a clue for "astute viewers" to wonder if they are changing the rule of only flashing off the living.

QED.

Thanks for taking the time to check this out for everyone.

Oh you're welcome. I'm still expecting a chorus of disagreement, because of course the writers can change their minds at any time! ;) Besides, it's not like I (personally) still want Naomi to be alive....

Abbadon is still alive, right? It was his flashback. Mystery solved.

Thank you for that great info jennylee!

Irrespective of the flashback rules, I think it would be pretty lame if it turns out Naomi is still alive. She already apparently died once, in TTLG when Locke threw the knife in her back. But then she somehow revived herself. That's fine - we've seen people recover from worse. But then she apparently dies a second time in TBOTE, from the same injury. This is the aspect of it that bothers me. It's one thing for Mikhail to apparently die due to the sonic fence, but somehow survive, and then appear to die due to a harppon arrow and somehow survive that - it seems unlikely, but I'll go with it. But with Naomi, it's like, make up your mind, writers, does the knife kill her or not?

Watch the sequence again. You see Naomi right after the flashback noise. It is HER flashback. ***Mod edited***

It IS Naomi's flashback. They will leave her behind on this 'copter trip and when they come back she will be gone. Then we won't see her for a bunch of weeks then she'll show up again, just like Mikhail.

***Mod edited***

Watch the sequence again. You see Naomi right after the flashback noise. It is HER flashback. ***Mod edited***

It IS Naomi's flashback. They will leave her behind on this 'copter trip and when they come back she will be gone. Then we won't see her for a bunch of weeks then she'll show up again, just like Mikhail.

***Mod edited***


Most of us find a way to make our point without offending people. You might want to consider that idea when you next post...;)

Watch the sequence again. You see Naomi right after the flashback noise. It is HER flashback. ***Mod edited***

It IS Naomi's flashback. They will leave her behind on this 'copter trip and when they come back she will be gone. Then we won't see her for a bunch of weeks then she'll show up again, just like Mikhail.

***Mod edited***

I watched it! LOL
Good thing it comes at 11:34 in the commentary. I don't know whose voice is whose, sorry:

First one: "One of the things we did in this episode which was we seemingly broke one of our rules, which is that you only flash back off of living people."
The other one interrupts: "Which is still true."
First one: "Right. And in this episode, we seem to break that rule until you realize at the end that they're not really dead."
Thanks Jenny. I don't have the season 3 set, or I would have checked it out myself.

As you said, they can change the rule at any time, I guess we will have to wait to see what happens here!

You're welcome all. I do prefer an informed discussion. :smile:

LostLaura basically says almost everything I wanted to say and felt about the Naomi flashback here:

FBs are only told through someone who is living. How do we know this? Because TPTB specifically told us that when Libby died that we would not be able to get her back story FROM HER. They've told us time and again that we will get her story, but it has to be from other people, BECAUSE SHE IS DEAD.

That does NOT mean that the characters on the show are literally having the memories, nor does it mean that those with flash forwards are having premonitions. It means that TPTB have a storytelling device, and it used to show back or future story with characters and show how their behaviors are shaped by the past, present adn future. I believe that the storytelling device is used to show the general mindset of the character at the time (for the FBs). I think for the FFs, we are meant to think that they are thinking about what is happening on island. In other words, the island storyline is shaping their mindset in the future.

The other reason I am positive of this? Because of Nikki and Paulo. That episode-ending surprise would never have worked if the convention hadn't already been set up that only living people have FBs. Here we were thinking throughout the episode "Weird. A dead person having FBs. That's new!" and then they turned that on it's head, saying "Nope, we actually weren't doing that. It doesn't work that way on Lost."

Lastly, if Naomi is actually dead, they better have a good explanation of how that FB occurred, because it makes no sense to me as a viewer.

I don't think characters in the show are always having the memories, but the memories are clearly from their POV and do inform what is currently happening on the island even if they aren't having them right then. The convention is...until now...they have always gone off a living person. That makes me wonder if Naomi is alive or if the writers are saying "all bets are off" as far as the flashbacks go. It did strike me as strange when I watched it.

But if Naomi doesn't have a sister, she can't have a twin.

She could have a clone, though. Or the Naomi we met on the island could be a duplicate/clone/alternate universe Naomi...just throwing some crazy speculations out there.:biggrin:

LostLaura basically says almost everything I wanted to say and felt about the Naomi flashback here:


Thanks!

Ok, so after TE tonight.... she's dead? I mean, I guess she is. But seriously, they STILL focused on her a TON tonight. I am honestly still unsure..... I GUESS she's dead? But..... I'm not 100% sure. Some of you will call me ridiculous but I'm just not positive yet.

Ok, so after TE tonight.... she's dead? I mean, I guess she is. But seriously, they STILL focused on her a TON tonight. I am honestly still unsure..... I GUESS she's dead? But..... I'm not 100% sure. Some of you will call me ridiculous but I'm just not positive yet.Maybe they were teasing us with the FB last week?

I'm betting with all the ceremony about Sayid closing her eyes, covering her head, and wanting to bring her off the island, she is officially dead...

My theory is that it was Naomi's identical twin sister Regina in the flashback.

My theory is that it was Naomi's identical twin sister Regina in the flashback.

The sister that she doesn't have according to Miles when he admonished Daniel in the last episode?


If Naomi is going to spring back to life, I'd suggest that the plot mechanism is most likely to be related to the same type of spider that bit Nikki/Paulo.

There must be some reason why they keep featuring her 'corpse' so prominently.

My theory is that it was Naomi's identical twin sister Regina in the flashback.

Except, Regina is played by someone who looks nothing like Naomi.

How do you know that?

How do you know that?

By reading the credits and listening to Regina's voice. I ain't too smart but I have deductive reasoning down pat!:biggrin:

Please explain how "reading the credits" told you who will play Regina and what she looks like???
I'm calling B.S.
Its pretty pathetic to read spoiler info and then come to this board and post it and pretend its "deductive reasoning".

Please explain how "reading the credits" told you who will play Regina and what she looks like???
I'm calling B.S.
Its pretty pathetic to read spoiler info and then come to this board and post it and pretend its "deductive reasoning".

Yeah, that would be pathetic. More pathetic would be assuming that I did that. Regina has an Australian accent. There are two Australian actresses in the credits. I already know one of these Australian actresses is Claire. The other Australian actress listed in the credits must be the Australian voiced woman on the phone. That's how "reading the credits" told me who would play Regina. It ain't rocket science.

I think there's a good chance Naomi is still alive, simply because I don't think the writers would just suddenly throw out the FB rule. We've had a few examples in Lost of people's bodies appearing to be dead when they really aren't...

1) the pilot in The Pilot ep
2) Nikki & Paulo's Medussa spider paralysis
3) psychic's daughter who woke up during her autopsy exam [ her father told Eko it was just hypothermia (or something like that), but the coroner (an actual doctor) was totally freaked out ]

[ Christian Sheppard possibly a third??? ah, but tha's a whole other thread... ]

I'd say it's not that far of a stretch for Naomi to still be alive, too. Myles' behavior after "speaking" with her "ghost" makes sense when we learn two epys later that he came to the island to blackmail Ben...something Naomi would surely not approve of.