Apparently the plane under water isnt the real plane ...It is a decoy plane....

I beleive there is a huge comspiracy to keep this place secluded and...No one is supposed to know about the island or the people on it....

Apparently the plane under water isnt the real plane ...It is a decoy plane....

I beleive there is a huge comspiracy to keep this place secluded and...No one is supposed to know about the island or the people on it....Is that a spoiler or a theory on your part?

That sounded like a theory to me and one that I also believe and have been commenting on throughout the episode. The funny part is that there is this decoy plane (the thought being so that no one would search for any survivors) yet the people on the freighter are not surprised about it at all. I wonder what Daniel knew about it being a decoy when he heard the news on TV and started crying...

it is total theory...havent had time to read spoilers......

it is theory based on the show having a decoy plane....and all of our previous information

obviously a decoy plane. wasnt the pilot at all....what the hell is going on?

i thought it was just the old decoy theory, until we saw the polar bear and the dharma logo in the desert, i cant wait to see how they connect.

There is nothing obvious about this show. If we have learned nothing it is that nothing is what it seams and that we can't assume anything.

Maybe its a conspiracy, maybe Oceanic planted the decoy because it was better to find the plane than to say they lost it completely and had no idea where it was. Thats why they "cant" recover the bodies.

just playing devils advocate here, I do think its a conspiracy of some kind, just wanted to throw another POV out there

last season whikle we were all talking about the others knowing or not knowing they were coming......it seems like now they didnt know they were coming....until it happened...and than the people in the real world covered up their crashing of flight 815....and then there was more of a conspiracy...oh my goodness...I cant figure it all out my dogs want to go for a walk and are barking and i cant think...grrrrr

Well, someone went to a lot of trouble with the decoy plane, that's for sure.

And Matthew Abbadon- in his converstaion with Naomi he appeared to know that it was very possible for oceanic survivors to be on the island... so whoever he is maybe he knows something about all this?

There were so many things revealed tonight, it was awesome. Little confirmations everywhere...the decoy being the biggest. I liked how they brought up Locke's lack of a kidney too. Fate works in strange ways...

How could it not be a decoy plane? Obviously it's not the real plane. the real plane crashed on the island. Perhaps someone else besides Penny's crew were watching for any magnetic anomaly, and saw it when Desmond didn't push the button or when Locke didn't.

I definitely thought this when finishing the ARG (http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/forumdisplay.php?f=377).

I definitely thought this when finishing the ARG (http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/forumdisplay.php?f=377).

DC I'm glad to see you in this thread. Did you catch all the Find 815 things? And I think this is starting to answer some of the questions we brought up in the ARG

This is total speculation on my part, to be clear :) . I wonder how they are going to explain how they missed 6 surviors? This would explain why only 6 made if off the island. I guess missing 6 could possibly be explained but there's no way they could bring All the surviors back. They (dharma?) could never explain how all were reported dead then have 20? (I don't remember how many are left) show up.

I guess it is time for me to play that game huh?...lol

DC I'm glad to see you in this thread. Did you catch all the Find 815 things? And I think this is starting to answer some of the questions we brought up in the ARGGood to see you, too.
Yeah, thanks for cluing me in on the reef map, I missed that.
I was really happy to see the Find815 stuff included. This reinforced many of our thoughts about what we discovered there, while adding a bit more info.

I don't think that Sam thought this was the real plane, either.
100%
I guess it is time for me to play that game huh?...lolIt's much shorter and easier than the previous ARG (TLE), and it looks like it is connecting more directly with the show -- so go for it. The threads here at the Lage can get you through it quickly if you need a hand.

i guess that is what i will be doing tomorrow in work...lol

i guess that is what i will be doing tomorrow in work...lol
Lol. Important work. :biggrin: Enjoy!

I'm also wondering how on EARTH they are going to make any cover story at all for an oceanic 6. That (fake) plane went down in the middle of the ocean for pete's sake! How could anyone get out of a crashing plane and swim miles and miles to the nearest piece of land? Its not possible. I really want to know how they will try to explain it.

Also, what about the body of the pilot in the decoy plane? Was this a real person? How did they accomplish that?

MVM, arent you a teacher?? The future of our country in your hands and you are looking up Lost? LOL! At least give the kids an assignment first!

Well, there seems to be two major schools of thought about the found 815.

One set of theories posit the creation of a second 815 due to some interaction with the island. One copy of 815 crashed near Bali, while the other copy crashed on the island.

Another set of theories involve some conspiracy, with the found 815 being a plant.

I think tonight's episode provided more support for the conspiracy theories when we were shown the pilot's fingers but no wedding ring.

But Lost isn't always as it seems...

Well, someone went to a lot of trouble with the decoy plane, that's for sure.

And Matthew Abbadon- in his converstaion with Naomi he appeared to know that it was very possible for oceanic survivors to be on the island... so whoever he is maybe he knows something about all this?

Matthew Abbadon definitely seems to be in the know about 815 crashing on that island and must be part of the decoy plane conspiracy. When he was telling Naomi "there were no survivors", I took it to mean that she wasn't to ever acknowledge having seen them ince she left the island.

How could it not be a decoy plane? Obviously it's not the real plane. the real plane crashed on the island. Perhaps someone else besides Penny's crew were watching for any magnetic anomaly, and saw it when Desmond didn't push the button or when Locke didn't.

Well, it could be the "real" 815 if there are parallel timelines... 2 Charlies, 2 planes. I'm just saying ;)

This is total speculation on my part, to be clear :) . I wonder how they are going to explain how they missed 6 surviors? This would explain why only 6 made if off the island. I guess missing 6 could possibly be explained but there's no way they could bring All the surviors back. They (dharma?) could never explain how all were reported dead then have 20? (I don't remember how many are left) show up.

Hmmm... That might explain how Hurley ends up being one of the Oceanic 6 even though he went with Locke. Maybe these people want Kate, Jack, Hurley and 3 specific other Losties for some reason.

Well, someone went to a lot of trouble with the decoy plane, that's for sure.

And Matthew Abbadon- in his converstaion with Naomi he appeared to know that it was very possible for oceanic survivors to be on the island... so whoever he is maybe he knows something about all this?


You're right, someone had to go to a LOT of trouble to stage the crash of a jet liner. If it is a 747 that they sank, they start at around $228 million dollars; even if it was a smaller aircraft, the price would still be well over $124 million!

So to forfeit the cost of the plane, transport it all the way out to the middle of the Indian Ocean, and sink it.......would require a lot of financing and effort.

I don't think there have been any real spoilers about a decoy 815 since Naomi told the losties in season 3 that the wreckage of their flight was found and that there were no survivors. Only a lot of speculation.
Could be a Ben coverup to end any search attempt that would lead anyone to the island. Could be that the losties were indeed "brought" to the island for a specific purpose, someone wants that purpose completed, and has gone to great extents to make sure no one discovers where they are before "mission accomplished".
Those are my best guesses, but who knows????????????

I agree that Naomi and Abaddon know that the 815ers are on the island, but thats part of the bigger picture, controlled by a larger power and not necessarily a part of their job. I also think that the four on island freightees had each deduced on their own that the wreckage was a decoy. I think this has a big relation as to why they were chosen for this mission.

I also think that the four on island freightees had each deduced on their own that the wreckage was a decoy. I think this has a big relation as to why they were chosen for this mission.

I totally agree with this statement.

I have wondered if OA lost another plane and this is it. You know, a training flight or they were involved in a top secret or NEFARIOUS something where any deceased would never be asked about what happened. Then, the first anamoly caused the 815 crashed, someone besides Penny saw it and put together the EA with the 815 disappearance and then almost 3 mos later, another EA happened but more strongly (we've never seen what the world heard about that EA) and someone besides Penny was looking for something like that as well and that's how they got the coordinates. Since they already had the OA plane in the Sunda Trench, they decided that it would be best to kill off any survivors of 815 and say that the plane in the Sunda Trench was 815 - all in order to mask their NEFARIOUS plot. Whatever that is.
I guess you can tell I'm a little excited over all this. :rolleyes:
BTW, ya gotta play the find815 game. It's a blast and I kept telling my husband, "I did that!! That was Sam's find!" :biggrin:

It's interesting that the decoy plane, if that's what it is, was found so far off course. That has been a popular theory for what happened to the actual 815, so as to account for the flight times, which don't seem to add up right if it was headed straight to LA.

What I find most intriguing about the "fake" wreckage is that the plane is split in 3 pieces exactly the way the 'real' plane was. Cockpit, fuselage, tail section.
What could this suggest?
That whoever did this knew exactly what happened to the real Flight 815? If so, why bother recreating the wreckage to the letter? Why not just throw a plane in the ocean?
Or... could it actually be Flight 815?
http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/131/wreckagevh7.jpg

Right now we don't know who staged it, but clearly someone in aviation was involved. They to get a commercial jet from Oceanic or paint one to look lie an Oceanic plane. People in avaition(engineers, builders, pilots, FAA) know what the weakest points in a plane are and where a plane tends to "break" in violent crashes. I would guess the fakers broke the plane in three pieces based on that info.
The real question is how do you get three pieces to float to the bottom of the ocean and land so close to each other. I know this isn't reality, but how? I mean the Titanic broke in two pieces and landed at the bottom of the ocean about a mile apart.

What if The Others put that plane there? Or people connected to them? To make everyone think that there were no survivors so that people wouldn't come to the island to look for them. They knew exactly how the plane broke apart. Ben admitted that the people on the boat wanted him, and that that he had a person on the boat. and he knew all the info of the people in the helicopter. He obviously didn't want them to find him, that's why he shot the woman (forgot her name) Just a crazy little theory of mine.

All I could think of as we watched the decoy plane descend in the aquarium was of Kate's toy plane that had been saved all those years.... the bank safety deposit box... her treasuring it...

What if The Others put that plane there? Or people connected to them? To make everyone think that there were no survivors so that people wouldn't come to the island to look for them. They knew exactly how the plane broke apart. Ben admitted that the people on the boat wanted him, and that that he had a person on the boat. and he knew all the info of the people in the helicopter. He obviously didn't want them to find him, that's why he shot the woman (forgot her name) Just a crazy little theory of mine.

that's what i think. the others obviously had money on the mainland in the form of mittelos bioscience. who knows if they had other front companies. the freighties are on a mission to get Ben for a reason.

lets not forget who would have the power to kidnap 324 people to put on the plane without anyone noticing? even tho this theory has been dis-proven many times perhaps the survivors are dead but here at the same time( like charlie, they kinda made it a point for charlie to say that) maybe the writers just de-bunked the theory to keep us thinking....

Of course, the obvious explanation is the real-world one. TPTB cut up the plane they bought into three sections. If they want to use the same plane for this scene they either have to keep it in 3 pieces or buy an awful lot of sellotape ! :biggrin:

Of course, the obvious explanation is the real-world one. TPTB cut up the plane they bought into three sections. If they want to use the same plane for this scene they either have to keep it in 3 pieces or buy an awful lot of sellotape ! :biggrin:

i thought the underwater plane was all cg though... don't know how much it would cost to put all that underwater and film it.

I imagine the underwater aspect is probably cgi, but the actual pieces of the plane were real.

I don't think it has anything to do with a conspiracy by human hands. The Others didn't have anything to do with it, nor did Hanso, Widmore, Dharma, etc. etc. etc.

Furthermore, I personally still don't believe that it's a time travel issue in the traditional sense. I might be willing to entertain the idea of a Donnie Darko-style "course correction," but I think it comes from a natural ability of the Island to serve as a hub between multiple causalities.

It's simple, in one causality, the plane crashed, while in another one it didn't.

Seems to me that the mysterious "lawyer for oceanic" (was his name Abaddon or something?) and Naomi knew about the island, and its power. They didn't necessarily know there were survivors, but they seemed to know that the island caused the disappearance of 815; this created the possibility that they may have ended up there. Their main purpose seems to be getting Ben Linus, using Desmond as a link to the island/cover-up. Remember, Desmond was down there three years as the only living "Dharma" representative.

But it does seem apparent that Abaddon knows more than his recruits about events on the Island and 815.

lets not forget who would have the power to kidnap 324 people to put on the plane without anyone noticing? even tho this theory has been dis-proven many times perhaps the survivors are dead but here at the same time( like charlie, they kinda made it a point for charlie to say that) maybe the writers just de-bunked the theory to keep us thinking....

I don't think they actually kidnapped 324 people and put them in the plane on the ocean floor. They just used a few as the plane was in an area that recovery missions could not be accomplished. They just needed a few to make it look like all the passengers were dead.

Who said it was a fake? Seems to be an assumption by many people here, but I don't recall any suggestion or confirmation.

I'm with the thinking that Desmond reliving part of his life when he bumped into Charlie etc caused an alternate line of reallity and therefore two flights existed - 1 before desmond changes things which crashed on the island, and a second one that had a slightly diffrerent outcome after desmond caused a butterfly effect.

The second one would kill them all as there couldn't be two of each person, much like Charlie eventually couldn't dodge death even with the help of Desmond, as he was already alive back in England, though this means that either there were 3 charlies, one on he island, one on the second plane (Naiomi said he was a legend after dying on the flight), and one still alive who didn't get on the plane that visits Hurley, or something more sinister....

If this was a huge con - planting a fake plane in a trench off bali - my question is - when was this faked plane planted on the ocean bottom? The prevailing theory seems to have been that it was planted after the crash of the Losties.

But what if there were two Flight 815s from the beginning, and both crashes were planned simultaneously?

The real question is how do you get three pieces to float to the bottom of the ocean and land so close to each other. I know this isn't reality, but how? I mean the Titanic broke in two pieces and landed at the bottom of the ocean about a mile apart.

Here's one possibility.
There are a few hundred aviation graveyards in America alone with all kinds of discontinued and unused airliners. Someone buys, repairs, paints a Boeing 777, flys it off, and lands in the water above the Sunda Trench. Close by, there is a sea-going vessel, capable of transporting 4 tugboats, which intersects the plane (in the water). Cabling is attached to the plane from the tugs, and the plane is then flooded. The tugs can essentially lower the plane into the position of choice. Prior to flooding the plane, explosives could be placed in key structural locations and then denonated when the plane was at the bottom of the ocean.
Now obviously, this would be expensive, complicated, and hard to do unnoticed,.. but it is within the realm of possibility. Especially for a group with deep pockets (like, say, the DI...;))

lets not forget who would have the power to kidnap 324 people to put on the plane without anyone noticing?

Here's one possibility.
Refer to above. An organization with deep pockets could easily get their hands on 300+ corpses (re-directed cremations, unidentified or unclaimed bodies, etc.). Load them on a plane and fly them off. I'm no expert, but I think salt water and time exposure would probably screw up any chance at a detailed autopsy.

I'm not saying that this is how it all went done. But is possible,...

I was leaning toward time correction until that guy noticed the pilots ring missing.
That would be a detail the staging crew wouldn't know about. Their perfect plan
is compromised now; if they find out or should I say when they find out the guy
knows it they will take him out.

I have to admit that I was getting VERY exited until I saw the front part of the plane...:frown:
For those who don't know, my theory states that that is the real wreckage of the plane. But they would have found only TWO pieces, since the cockpit is still on the island.
So, apparently everything points in the direction of the old fake flight 815 theory of conspirancies, right?
Well, it seems so, but, being as stubborn as I am, we could still say that the only part they faked was the missing one: THE COCKPIT. It would have been very suspicious to find just two parts of a plane one by the other, without the cockpit. So they had to put a fake one next to them. Easier and cheaper than fake a whole plane!

Hints that may support this idea are:

1) Like the OP stated, the plane was splitted in three. Just like the real one on the island.

2) For those who followed the FIND 815 ARG, that guy who found the plane, wasn't SAM.
The whole ROV scene was nothing like the one we saw in the ARG.

Theory: This is a fake ROV footage done AFTER Sam found the plane. The only difference:
They put the front part of an oceanic plane next to what Sam really found: Fuselage and Tail.
This might be why Sam looked so suspicious at the end of the ARG. He KNOWS what they did with the plane.

My theories:

1)It's fake wreckage. The tone of the Oceanic people on the phone was really weird.

2)Orchid Station style duplication/teleportation. But that doesn't explain the wrong pilot being in the seat.

Any theories as to why the plane was found of Indonesia in the Sundra Trench, rather than in the Pacific by Fiji?

You\'re right, someone had to go to a LOT of trouble to stage the crash of a jet liner. If it is a 747 that they sank, they start at around $228 million dollars; even if it was a smaller aircraft, the price would still be well over $124 million!

So to forfeit the cost of the plane, transport it all the way out to the middle of the Indian Ocean, and sink it.......would require a lot of financing and effort.

Actually, it doesn\'t have to have been an airworthy plane, so it would be cheaper by three orders of magnitude... Somewhere around $250,000 for a scrap 747. Pocket change for this \"Operation\", whatever it is.

----------
Why on earth is The Fuselage firewalled in China? The crazy backslashes above are probably because I have to post via a proxy.

Any theories as to why the plane was found of Indonesia in the Sundra Trench, rather than in the Pacific by Fiji?

I was pretty surprised and disappointed that nobody commented on that on the show!!!!

As for my theory..Check my siggy!!!

Actually, it doesn\'t have to have been an airworthy plane, so it would be cheaper by three orders of magnitude... Somewhere around $250,000 for a scrap 747. Pocket change for this \"Operation\", whatever it is.

----------
Why on earth is The Fuselage firewalled in China? The crazy backslashes above are probably because I have to post via a proxy.


Well, it might be even cheaper and easier to take just the missing part: THE FRONT!!!!

Decoy? Possibly - but this show is all about timelines. I'm favoring that theory. Dharma was trying to affect the future by altering the past. The polar bear with a Dharma colllar unearthed in an archaelogical dig indicates that Dharma was playing with past events. The plane that was found was a crash that occurred in one timeline. Lapidus was the pilot. Events were changed (by Ben to fix his spinal tumor?) so that the Losties plane ends up on the island (but a different timeline is created). The time line change results in a different pilot and different set of people dying. The change in that timeline also is what prevents Christian Sheppard from dying. Jack returns to the new time line with his dad still in charge of the hospital. In the new time line Lapidus is a live. Somehow Oceanic knows about the change - they know Lapidus is alive. So they say that it's the other pilot in the cockpit - but Lapidus kind of blows that. It could explain why Faraday freaking out - he was one of the people that was on the plane that crashed in the other timeline. Somehow - he realizes that.

Then again - it could be a decoy.

I was pretty surprised and disappointed that nobody commented on that on the show!!!!

I did comment on this in another thread. There has been a lot of speculation before this on where 815 actually went, given that we know it went of course and how the flight times didn't seem to jive with the easterly path one would expect with an LA-bound flight plan.

Maybe this adds credence to the idea the island is closer to the Indian Ocean than the Pacific.

I did comment on this in another thread. There has been a lot of speculation before this on where 815 actually went, given that we know it went of course and how the flight times didn't seem to jive with the easterly path one would expect with an LA-bound flight plan.

Maybe this adds credence to the idea the island is closer to the Indian Ocean than the Pacific.
I meant on the show itself. The news reported didn't make any references about the plane being found so off course. That dissapointed me. That might be because TPTB don't want the answer to that to be known just now.

Hmmm, maybe the pilot didn't have a wedding band because the corpse Frank was seeing was his own? Maybe in the alternate timeline, Frank DID get on the plane. Maybe he even recognized it, that's how he could be so sure without being able to say anything other than the ring is missing. Who would have stayed on the phone with him if he had said "I know it's not him because that's ME!" Just an idea (that I'm not sure even I buy).

Here's one possibility.
There are a few hundred aviation graveyards in America alone with all kinds of discontinued and unused airliners. Someone buys, repairs, paints a Boeing 777, flys it off, and lands in the water above the Sunda Trench. Close by, there is a sea-going vessel, capable of transporting 4 tugboats, which intersects the plane (in the water). Cabling is attached to the plane from the tugs, and the plane is then flooded. The tugs can essentially lower the plane into the position of choice. Prior to flooding the plane, explosives could be placed in key structural locations and then denonated when the plane was at the bottom of the ocean.
Now obviously, this would be expensive, complicated, and hard to do unnoticed,.. but it is within the realm of possibility. Especially for a group with deep pockets (like, say, the DI...;))

Here's one possibility.
Refer to above. An organization with deep pockets could easily get their hands on 300+ corpses (re-directed cremations, unidentified or unclaimed bodies, etc.). Load them on a plane and fly them off. I'm no expert, but I think salt water and time exposure would probably screw up any chance at a detailed autopsy.

I'm not saying that this is how it all went done. But is possible,...

But why? Why would anyone see a need to create a scenario where an unsuspecting dive crew would locate a plane that was established as simply missing. Planes dissappear all the time without actual wreckage being located. Tragic, yes but It's not like they were searching near land for an individual (i.e. JFK Jr. or someone) this was a plane filled with mostly ordinary people that disappeared in the middle of the ocean. The idea of a fake 777, tugboats, demolition experts , surreptitiously acquired corpses, etc... seems like a long way to go for little gain.

I don't even know how finding the plane's underwater location can even be tied back to the freighter finding the island - the two seem really remote at this point in the arc.

it's starting to look more like some 'wrinkle in time' sort of thing, which I find disappointing. Perhaps that's the plan, build some conflict among the fans a divide between the SUPERS (those who believe in supernatural explanations) and REALIES (those who still hold out for a rational explanation). Of course the truth is probably somewhere in the middle (MIDDLIE?)

Dogfood1
REALIE

I don't think it has anything to do with a conspiracy by human hands. The Others didn't have anything to do with it, nor did Hanso, Widmore, Dharma, etc. etc. etc.

Furthermore, I personally still don't believe that it's a time travel issue in the traditional sense. I might be willing to entertain the idea of a Donnie Darko-style "course correction," but I think it comes from a natural ability of the Island to serve as a hub between multiple causalities.

It's simple, in one causality, the plane crashed, while in another one it didn't.

I agree, RB. I've really never been on-board with the fake plane conspiracy. Don't really have a theory of my own, other than, I too believe it has to do with the natural abilities of the island.

tengland1: Yes, I thought the same thing. As soon as the showed the close-up of the hand and the arm, I thought the clue was going to be the service stripes on the jacket cuff. Pilots get one stripe for every 5 years of service. I thought sure he was going to say "that's not him, he's only got 10 years and the jacket says 20+!".

I just have one question for those who might have some knowledge about how aviation works. How did the person operationg the underwater camera know instantly that the plane was Oceanic 815. I ask this beacuse I was under the impression that the flight number on a plane changed and was never hard stamped on the plane. It was as if with one glimpse of the wreckage he knew instantly that it was 815. Now I know that the crash made headline news but lets face it the crash sight was way off from where the plane should have been. These people have benn working on an exploration of some sort, which i would assume had them a little preoccupied, yet they instaltly concluded that this must be 815. Is the flight number painted on the outside of the plane?

Who said it was a fake? Seems to be an assumption by many people here, but I don't recall any suggestion or confirmation.

I'm with the thinking that Desmond reliving part of his life when he bumped into Charlie etc caused an alternate line of reallity and therefore two flights existed - 1 before desmond changes things which crashed on the island, and a second one that had a slightly diffrerent outcome after desmond caused a butterfly effect.

The second one would kill them all as there couldn't be two of each person, much like Charlie eventually couldn't dodge death even with the help of Desmond, as he was already alive back in England, though this means that either there were 3 charlies, one on he island, one on the second plane (Naiomi said he was a legend after dying on the flight), and one still alive who didn't get on the plane that visits Hurley, or something more sinister....

I think it's a time splice thing-- and the reason that the pilot on the undersea wreckage wasn't the pilot we met on the island (and the Helicopter pilot knew it wasn't him because of the wedding ring) is because in the alternate reality it was the helicopter pilot flying 815 as he was originally supposed to.

is because in the alternate reality it was the helicopter pilot flying 815 as he was originally supposed to.

Yeah, I called my sister during the next commercial and ask her, "Is Frank seeing his own dead body?" (She poo-pooed the idea....but I'm not so sure she's right.)

But why? Why would anyone see a need to create a scenario where an unsuspecting dive crew would locate a plane that was established as simply missing. Planes dissappear all the time without actual wreckage being located. Tragic, yes but It's not like they were searching near land for an individual (i.e. JFK Jr. or someone) this was a plane filled with mostly ordinary people that disappeared in the middle of the ocean. The idea of a fake 777, tugboats, demolition experts , surreptitiously acquired corpses, etc... seems like a long way to go for little gain.

I don't even know how finding the plane's underwater location can even be tied back to the freighter finding the island - the two seem really remote at this point in the arc.

it's starting to look more like some 'wrinkle in time' sort of thing, which I find disappointing. Perhaps that's the plan, build some conflict among the fans a divide between the SUPERS (those who believe in supernatural explanations) and REALIES (those who still hold out for a rational explanation). Of course the truth is probably somewhere in the middle (MIDDLIE?)

Dogfood1
REALIE

If one group can 'hide' an island, why can't another (or the same) fake a plane crash?
Groups like the Widmore Corp., DI, or Paik Industries easily have the finances and/or influence to do this.
The island is special, control of it is important, and worth faking a plane crash over to divert attention away from it's actual location.
(IMO)

Why all this talk of "wreckage"? All they showed on TV is exactly what we saw on TV -- images of what APPEARS to be a plane crash. But we're not assuming the producers of Lost actually crashed a plane, are we?

There's no physical evidence being presented to anyone - just TV images that could be faked in precisely the same way as the images we saw were created.

The Maxwell Group controlled all of the equipment - they could easily have simulated the entire thing.

I stated this in the "Photo of Ben, in the real world?" thread, but since it deals with the wreckage, I'll post here, too.... http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showpost.php?p=1750199&postcount=59
From the info in the photo thread, the pic of Ben is of him at the airport- presumably an Oceanic flight (the blue ticket holder), and, apparently, since the only way to get to the island seems to be either by submarine or by crashing, what if it's HIS FLIGHT that was found on the bottom of the ocean? If he indeed does paralell Jack and desperately wants to return, what if he hijacked it to make it crash so he'd be able to get back to the island? The people who found the wreckage would assume flight 815 since it was the most recent flight that went missing- a flight from 30 odd years ago wouldn't be fresh in their minds. (I got the 30+ years based on the clothing and hairstyles of the people in the photo.)

I was leaning toward time correction until that guy noticed the pilots ring missing.
That would be a detail the staging crew wouldn't know about. Their perfect plan
is compromised now; if they find out or should I say when they find out the guy
knows it they will take him out.

This is why you should always keep every episode handy. Waaaaaaay back in episode one, Greg Grunberg, the actor who played the pilot (lol at moustached photo in this ep, btw) appeared and got flayed by smokey. About a minute and a half after he wakes up we get a closeup of his left hand:
http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s285/spatula26/PilotsHand.jpg

...and no wedding ring! Lapidus (Fahey always scares me) needs t lay off the sauce.

Also, I'm not sure he was in the correct seat. I haven't got a cap from thie ep. yet, but I think I remember Norris's body being in the seat on the right in the footage, but Grunberg (Grunberg is love!) was sitting on the left. If someone has a cap already, I'd love to see it.

I'm with the thinking that Desmond reliving part of his life when he bumped into Charlie etc caused an alternate line of reallity and therefore two flights existed - 1 before desmond changes things which crashed on the island, and a second one that had a slightly diffrerent outcome after desmond caused a butterfly effect.

The second one would kill them all as there couldn't be two of each person, much like Charlie eventually couldn't dodge death even with the help of Desmond, as he was already alive back in England, though this means that either there were 3 charlies, one on he island, one on the second plane (Naiomi said he was a legend after dying on the flight), and one still alive who didn't get on the plane that visits Hurley, or something more sinister....

I totally agree with this premise--in fact I've been talking about pretty much the same thing with some of my RL friends for a while now. However, I don't think there need be 3 Charlies. We learned last night that Naomi was not at all who she presented herself to be to the Losties. She's a spy of some sort with black ops and military training. What she told Charlie might have been improved as a way to sell Charlie on the story she was telling them about who she was.

About a minute and a half after he wakes up we get a closeup of his left hand:
http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s285/spatula26/PilotsHand.jpg

...and no wedding ring! Lapidus (Fahey always scares me) needs t lay off the sauce.


While I greatly admire your initiative in finding this screencap, I gotta disagree about the ring. The shot clearly appears to show a horizontal band across his ring finger. I take this photo as evidence that Lapidus was correct!

Hitt, i noticed and laughed at the mustache too. i think however both 'pilots' were in the same (left) seat.

As someone mentioned earlier, it is puzzling to me that no one would be aware that the supposed wreckage was found so far off course and in the opposite direction. I also have to wonder, if you were going to go to all the trouble of faking a crash site so people would believe no one survived the flight why would you deliberately place it in the opposite direction of 815's path?

I don't think it has anything to do with a conspiracy by human hands. The Others didn't have anything to do with it, nor did Hanso, Widmore, Dharma, etc. etc. etc.---Furthermore, I personally still don't believe that it's a time travel issue in the traditional sense. I might be willing to entertain the idea of a Donnie Darko-style "course correction," but I think it comes from a natural ability of the Island to serve as a hub between multiple causalities. ----It's simple, in one causality, the plane crashed, while in another one it didn't.
This was my thought back in S3 after both Cooper and Naomi told about a "no survivor wreckage" of 815 being found. I backed my thoughts with the overwhelming amount of plays on time, aging, time travel, and course correction that had been presented over three seasons. However, my theory was not nearly as popular as the "cover-up" theory. I also remember it being disputed because TPTB stated something about there being no alternative timelines.

I don't think they actually kidnapped 324 people and put them in the plane on the ocean floor. They just used a few as the plane was in an area that recovery missions could not be accomplished. They just needed a few to make it look like all the passengers were dead.
If it is a planned cover-up, this would be the simpler way to go. There is just too much involved and too much to explain about an actual staged crash.
If this was a huge con - planting a fake plane in a trench off bali - my question is - when was this faked plane planted on the ocean bottom? The prevailing theory seems to have been that it was planted after the crash of the Losties.
The news report said that the Christiane 1 had been out looking for downed ships for about two months (By the way I believe that it's real mission was to find the wreckage and control the information, footage etc to be released to the public) So if this was a staged set, I would say it was after the losties crashed.
Why all this talk of "wreckage"? All they showed on TV is exactly what we saw on TV -- images of what APPEARS to be a plane crash. But we're not assuming the producers of Lost actually crashed a plane, are we?

There's no physical evidence being presented to anyone - just TV images that could be faked in precisely the same way as the images we saw were created.

The Maxwell Group controlled all of the equipment - they could easily have simulated the entire thing.
Again, MUCH easier than staging a crash, corpses and all.

While I greatly admire your initiative in finding this screencap, I gotta disagree about the ring. The shot clearly appears to show a horizontal band across his ring finger. I take this photo as evidence that Lapidus was correct!

I just looked at the picture, too. And I agree - there IS a ring.

While I greatly admire your initiative in finding this screencap, I gotta disagree about the ring. The shot clearly appears to show a horizontal band across his ring finger. I take this photo as evidence that Lapidus was correct!

Yeah, I went back and looked at an earlier shot. The ring is there.

Darnit!:crybaby:

Speaking of the wreckage, here's a moment that just absolutely cracked me up about last night's ep.

I'm all for suspension of disbelief and everything, but there is NO WAY that any legit TV news organization is going to broadcast the raw footage of a marine salvage unit, particularly when the roving camera goes an EXTREME closeup of a horribly decomposed body! :rolleyes: :biggrin:
Honestly can you imagine? You have CNN and even if there's some breaking news story about discovered plane wreckage, like they're actually going to show you what one of the dead bodies looks like from about a whole 6 inches away?? :P :lol

edit: And hey what happened to Greg Grunberg's 70's porn 'stache that he was rockin' in that photo? He certainly didn't have it on the crash day.

I don't think it has anything to do with a conspiracy by human hands. The Others didn't have anything to do with it, nor did Hanso, Widmore, Dharma, etc. etc. etc.

Furthermore, I personally still don't believe that it's a time travel issue in the traditional sense. I might be willing to entertain the idea of a Donnie Darko-style "course correction," but I think it comes from a natural ability of the Island to serve as a hub between multiple causalities.

It's simple, in one causality, the plane crashed, while in another one it didn't.

In a way I agree. Not quite sure of the details, but I am currently convinced that the plane is both on the island, where the losties get to see it, and in the ocean, where the outside world gets to see it. We still have no real idea as to the connection between the island and the real world.

here is something to ponder.....back in season 2, or maybe season 1, there was an oceanic website set up by abc ( so i take it to be canon). if you poked around there, one of the hidden things that you came across was a newspaper article mentioning an oceanic crash during a repositioning flight. perhaps this one is that plane?

My theory is that Oceanic made a fake video because the survivors were never found. They broadcast it and didn't put a ring on the pilot's finger (they didn't go deep into detail) and Frank Lapidus noticed the lack of a wedding ring.

here is something to ponder.....back in season 2, or maybe season 1, there was an oceanic website set up by abc ( so i take it to be canon). if you poked around there, one of the hidden things that you came across was a newspaper article mentioning an oceanic crash during a repositioning flight. perhaps this one is that plane?

:biggrin: you beat me to it - thats exactly what I thought, when I saw it. Can anyone confirm that the "other" mysterious disappearing flight is canon and not just fanfiction?

However, in reading some of the posts here, it got me thinking that maybe there is far more to that other plane crash than we previously realized...

I just have one question for those who might have some knowledge about how aviation works. How did the person operationg the underwater camera know instantly that the plane was Oceanic 815. I ask this beacuse I was under the impression that the flight number on a plane changed and was never hard stamped on the plane. It was as if with one glimpse of the wreckage he knew instantly that it was 815. Now I know that the crash made headline news but lets face it the crash sight was way off from where the plane should have been. These people have benn working on an exploration of some sort, which i would assume had them a little preoccupied, yet they instaltly concluded that this must be 815. Is the flight number painted on the outside of the plane?

That's exactly what I thought. "Um, dude. You just found an Oceanic plane. Not that specific one" I mean, the plane would have a number but it wouldn't be the flight number, because yeah, different planes could be used for the same flight number. It would be more like a serial number. And it's likely that the public wouldn't know that serial number.

In a way I agree. Not quite sure of the details, but I am currently convinced that the plane is both on the island, where the losties get to see it, and in the ocean, where the outside world gets to see it. We still have no real idea as to the connection between the island and the real world.

I agree too. I don't think it would have been worth the trouble for anyone to stage a fake crash, just having people know the plane crashed and was lost at sea would be good enough. I am leaning towards the "the plane exists both on the island and in the ocean" theory, but that really puzzles me about the ring. They obviously threw that in for a reason and I'm sure it's important to show that there is a difference between the island plane and the ocean plane. Though my first thought when we saw the pilot's corpse was that his hand had gotten rotten and the ring fell off.

I thought that was rather interesting too. The thing that struck me about it is that nobody except for the Others and the Losties knows that the plane broke up into 3 pieces like that, so why go through the trouble to make the fake crash resemble it? How the heck do you get a plane like that into the water without anyone noticing? You have to tow it from somewhere.
That whole thing is such a mystery!

Has it ever been established that the pilot from season 1 was the pilot? I meant, he might have been the COPILOT, right? Because the guy in the picture didn't look like Greg to me.
Also, this could provide more support to the theory that there was some kind of hijacking and the plane was deviated from its original route.


Edit: My bad:redface: , it is Greg!! What a difference a moustache can make!!!!!:biggrin:

F.A.O

A moderator

who keeps on removing my posts/threads and how do I make a complaint

I see no justification in the actions taken and would like to make a complaint

F.A.O

A moderator

who keeps on removing my posts/threads and how do I make a complaint

I see no justification in the actions taken and would like to make a complaint

Your post was moved to here (http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=88439), as I told you, because its a theory. It was not closed, like you said. The second one however was closed because it is a duplicate. What exactly is your complaint? not that this is the proper forum to do it ...I apologize to the op for taking this ot.

That's exactly what I thought. "Um, dude. You just found an Oceanic plane. Not that specific one

You would be assuming by stating this that Oceanic has had more than 1 crash. It is more likely that they have never had a crash before and that is how he knew right away it was 815.

Any theories as to why the plane was found of Indonesia in the Sundra Trench, rather than in the Pacific by Fiji?

I was pretty surprised and disappointed that nobody commented on that on the show!!!!

Yeah, I felt the same way Fierro, I was like WTH?!?! Lapidus is able to recognize an extremely small detail about the Pilot and his missing wedding ring, yet no one notices the blatantly obvious? It's in the wrong Ocean!!!:shrug:

You're right too, TPTB must be holding on to this juicy detail until later.;)

You would be assuming by stating this that Oceanic has had more than 1 crash. It is more likely that they have never had a crash before and that is how he knew right away it was 815.

If the guy had enough knowledge to know that Oceanic 815 was their only crash(assuming it was), then surely he would have known that the plane, according to it's flight path and destination, should have been in the Pacific and not Indian Ocean!

F.A.O

A moderator

who keeps on removing my posts/threads and how do I make a complaint

I see no justification in the actions taken and would like to make a complaint

My advice would be to try to learn from these actions. The Fuselage is not like other chat groups, and there is a definite culture that has been established here, and which is maintained. This culture appeals to some and not to others, but generally it is there to protect the innocent and young and to insure that those who are soft of voice have their right to be heard. If this place doesn't appeal to you, maybe you could find another place that does. If it does appeal to you, but you feel that you're bumping into what you perceive are problems, I'd take a look at what you're doing and try to make changes to comply with the culture that is already here. If you expect that the entire Fuselage should change because you don't like what is going on, you will probably be dissapointed. Most of us here like it just fine as it is, and are happy that the Fuselage is as highly moderated as it is. Those mods spend a lot of their time making sure it is as nice a place as possible, and instead of complaining about them, you ought to be thankful for what they do.

I just have one question for those who might have some knowledge about how aviation works. How did the person operationg the underwater camera know instantly that the plane was Oceanic 815. I ask this beacuse I was under the impression that the flight number on a plane changed and was never hard stamped on the plane. It was as if with one glimpse of the wreckage he knew instantly that it was 815. Now I know that the crash made headline news but lets face it the crash sight was way off from where the plane should have been. These people have benn working on an exploration of some sort, which i would assume had them a little preoccupied, yet they instaltly concluded that this must be 815. Is the flight number painted on the outside of the plane?

The actual flight number (in this case OCE (or something like that) 815) isn't stamped on the plane, because a plane will through the course of its life have many different flight numbers (eg. a British Airways plane could have BA1273, BA3216, BA712, etc, through its lifetime). My guess is that 815 was the only Oceanic flight ever to have gone missing, and therefore they would automatically assume it to be 815.

All planes carry serial numbers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aircraft_registration), although I didn't catch one on the footage.

here is something to ponder.....back in season 2, or maybe season 1, there was an oceanic website set up by abc ( so i take it to be canon). if you poked around there, one of the hidden things that you came across was a newspaper article mentioning an oceanic crash during a repositioning flight. perhaps this one is that plane?

If that is canon, then it would destroy my above guess :)

My advice would be to try to learn from these actions. The Fuselage is not like other chat groups, and there is a definite culture that has been established here, and which is maintained. This culture appeals to some and not to others, but generally it is there to protect the innocent and young and to insure that those who are soft of voice have their right to be heard. If this place doesn't appeal to you, maybe you could find another place that does. If it does appeal to you, but you feel that you're bumping into what you perceive are problems, I'd take a look at what you're doing and try to make changes to comply with the culture that is already here. If you expect that the entire Fuselage should change because you don't like what is going on, you will probably be dissapointed. Most of us here like it just fine as it is, and are happy that the Fuselage is as highly moderated as it is. Those mods spend a lot of their time making sure it is as nice a place as possible, and instead of complaining about them, you ought to be thankful for what they do.

don't be so ridicolous. I don't have anything to learn from it: I have raised a perfectly legitimate issue. Of course I don't expcect the site to change becuase I don't like my posts being removed and threads removed based on the ego trip of a moderator anymore than the typo police. there are more pressing problems in the world to concern myself.

it is just an alien experience to myself and have never encountered such bizarre reasoning and selective bias about what constitutes a category of theory based on the moderator assumptions about the point I was making.

I don't see such incestral attitudes and traffic warden consciousness on other such forums so you bet I will leave the fuslage.

it will be my pleasure little man with clipboard

I've seen many people say that the underwater video/news report is just a coverup for crash. I dont think this at all. I think the whole reason TPTB but that small clip from the underwater vessile was to show that there really was a crash. I think if they wanted us to think that video was a coverup, they would have only shown it to us as part of a news report. I mean, with all the evidence of time travel/loopholes that they have thrown at us, how could one think that this is a coverup?

Granted, it is fishy. The name of the boat was, I believe, the "Christian 1".

Conserning the hotline, people are saying that the "supervisor" sounds suspicious. But I think that if you call in an emergency hotline screaming some conspirousy theory esque stuff, they would question you too.


...Just my thoughts, disect them if you please.

don't be so ridicolous. I don't have anything to learn from it: I have raised a perfectly legitimate issue. Of course I don't expcect the site to change becuase I don't like my posts being removed and threads removed based on the ego trip of a moderator anymore than the typo police. there are more pressing problems in the world to concern myself.

it is just an alien experience to myself and have never encountered such bizarre reasoning and selective bias about what constitutes a category of theory based on the moderator assumptions about the point I was making.

I don't see such incestral attitudes and traffic warden consciousness on other such forums so you bet I will leave the fuslage.

it will be my pleasure little man with clipboard

See ya later then.

Right now we don't know who staged it, but clearly someone in aviation was involved. They to get a commercial jet from Oceanic or paint one to look lie an Oceanic plane. People in avaition(engineers, builders, pilots, FAA) know what the weakest points in a plane are and where a plane tends to "break" in violent crashes. I would guess the fakers broke the plane in three pieces based on that info.
The real question is how do you get three pieces to float to the bottom of the ocean and land so close to each other. I know this isn't reality, but how? I mean the Titanic broke in two pieces and landed at the bottom of the ocean about a mile apart.

I agree that the pieces shouldn't have landed so close together but, at the same time, the two halves of the Titanic purportedly were about 1/4 of a mile apart and would presumably get that way due to one half rapidly sinking before the second half sank, which would have been carried along by the current in the process. Either way, in regard to the plane, no one on the mainland would have any clue that the plane broke up in mid-air -- the fact that the plane was in three pieces on the ocean floor could be explained by the fact that the plane went down and broke either when it impacted the water or when it impacted the ocean floor, therefore not scattering the pieces.

I agree that the pieces shouldn't have landed so close together but, at the same time, the two halves of the Titanic purportedly were about 1/4 of a mile apart and would presumably get that way due to one half rapidly sinking before the second half sank, which would have been carried along by the current in the process. Either way, in regard to the plane, no one on the mainland would have any clue that the plane broke up in mid-air -- the fact that the plane was in three pieces on the ocean floor could be explained by the fact that the plane went down and broke either when it impacted the water or when it impacted the ocean floor, therefore not scattering the pieces.


I think the trench is 4 miles deep so I don't think the plane could have impacted the ocean floor so hard as to cause it to break in 3. The water impact would be also cheesy...Why 3 pieces????? I am telling you there are way too many coincidences on this show to be just that, coincidences. The 'real' 815 splitted in 3, so did the faked one? Why?
If there is a fake crash, is just, according to my fake crash scenario, of the front part of the plane. Curiously where they found the pilot that according to Frank, is not the real one.
They already had the 2 original parts, they just had to bring out the missing one.
This might be what Sam found out at the end of FIND 815. And his knowledge might come into play later on.

don't be so ridicolous. I don't have anything to learn from it: I have raised a perfectly legitimate issue. Of course I don't expcect the site to change becuase I don't like my posts being removed and threads removed based on the ego trip of a moderator anymore than the typo police. there are more pressing problems in the world to concern myself.

it is just an alien experience to myself and have never encountered such bizarre reasoning and selective bias about what constitutes a category of theory based on the moderator assumptions about the point I was making.

I don't see such incestral attitudes and traffic warden consciousness on other such forums so you bet I will leave the fuslage.

it will be my pleasure little man with clipboard

you really need to work on that whole "being polite" towards others and "posting etiquette". we do not tolerate rude insinuations about the moderators or how this site is run.

your question about your thread was moved HERE (http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?goto=newpost&t=88448) and it was answered by two mods.

whether or not it is alien to you has no bearing on how this site functions. we have rules. the mods enforce the rules. you are not following the rules or seem to be refusing to accept that we have rules here. said rules are for good reason. you are missing the point overall.

threads are moved or merged with little to no bias. there is not some vendetta against you or anyone else. you have been here since May 2007 and you still don't get it? whatever, not important. either way, follow the rules or be escorted from the plane.

~~~~~~~

Saukkomies, thanks for trying. we may frame your post to share with future irate new posters. ;)

Saukkomies, thanks for trying. we may frame your post to share with future irate new posters. ;)

Hey, when I first started being active on the Fuselage I picked up a couple of minor infractions before I figured it all out. So I reckoned I could give the guy a bit of advice and tell him to just chill. But it's cool - I think that either you're on the plane or off...

Right now we don't know who staged it, but clearly someone in aviation was involved. They to get a commercial jet from Oceanic or paint one to look lie an Oceanic plane. People in avaition(engineers, builders, pilots, FAA) know what the weakest points in a plane are and where a plane tends to "break" in violent crashes. I would guess the fakers broke the plane in three pieces based on that info.
The real question is how do you get three pieces to float to the bottom of the ocean and land so close to each other. I know this isn't reality, but how? I mean the Titanic broke in two pieces and landed at the bottom of the ocean about a mile apart.

very good points. I'd like to add to this, something I noticed in the Lapidas flashback: right at the start of that scene, Lapidas looks to be simulating the plane landing on the ocean floor by dropping a model plane into a fishtank (or something similar). He hasn't at that point seen the pilot -wedding ring yet, and he looks to be unsure that the way the plane is placed on the ocean floor is actually a viable way for the plane to have landed. My suspicion is that what we saw him doing, watching the model fall to the bottom of the fishtank and land in a certain way, he probably did this many times over to try to recreate the actual placement being shown on the footage he's seen on TV.

To me, that says that the plane was specifically placed on the ocean floor, and furthermore was done so in a way that it couldn't have naturally landed that way.

Don't know if this is of any significance, but it jumped out at my when I first saw that scene.
100%
Decoy? Possibly - but this show is all about timelines. I'm favoring that theory. Dharma was trying to affect the future by altering the past. The polar bear with a Dharma colllar unearthed in an archaelogical dig indicates that Dharma was playing with past events. The plane that was found was a crash that occurred in one timeline. Lapidus was the pilot. Events were changed (by Ben to fix his spinal tumor?) so that the Losties plane ends up on the island (but a different timeline is created). The time line change results in a different pilot and different set of people dying. The change in that timeline also is what prevents Christian Sheppard from dying. Jack returns to the new time line with his dad still in charge of the hospital. In the new time line Lapidus is a live. Somehow Oceanic knows about the change - they know Lapidus is alive. So they say that it's the other pilot in the cockpit - but Lapidus kind of blows that. It could explain why Faraday freaking out - he was one of the people that was on the plane that crashed in the other timeline. Somehow - he realizes that.

Then again - it could be a decoy.

I think it's difficult to say that the Losties were "brought" to the island, by anyone. Remember, it was Desmond's choice not to push the button that day that crashed the plane. Had Des just gone about his business and not gotten curious, well, let's just say the show would be a lot less interesting. ;)

I just don't see how anyone could "know" Desmond would make that choice and more importantly when he would do so. Unless of course Desmond is part of the conspiracy... :confused:

I've seen many people say that the underwater video/news report is just a coverup for crash. I dont think this at all. I think the whole reason TPTB but that small clip from the underwater vessile was to show that there really was a crash. I think if they wanted us to think that video was a coverup, they would have only shown it to us as part of a news report. I mean, with all the evidence of time travel/loopholes that they have thrown at us, how could one think that this is a coverup?

Granted, it is fishy. The name of the boat was, I believe, the "Christian 1".

Conserning the hotline, people are saying that the "supervisor" sounds suspicious. But I think that if you call in an emergency hotline screaming some conspirousy theory esque stuff, they would question you too.


...Just my thoughts, disect them if you please.


Not necissarily..
THe only way to get people to admit something, or believe in something, is to give them COLD hard facts.. sometimes facts that are often TOO explicit and over the top.
IF dharma, or whoever was behind the crash, planned the decoy and propped it up as much as episode two's intro showed, then it'd be easy for the world to believe that Oceanic 815 truly did crash.

I think the trench is 4 miles deep so I don't think the plane could have impacted the ocean floor so hard as to cause it to break in 3. The water impact would be also cheesy...Why 3 pieces????? I am telling you there are way too many coincidences on this show to be just that, coincidences. The 'real' 815 splitted in 3, so did the faked one? Why?

I'm not denying (if this is indeed a spoofed crash) that those who placed the parts there intentionally had them broken into three pieces, I'm just stating that for the sake of the real world questioning the fact that it was in three pieces, it could easily be explained away logically. As stated earlier, there are bound to be weak or susceptible points on a plane, just as there are on cars, that would be more likely to break on impact. Well, if a plane is falling at 1g, that would be quite an impact. :o Try falling of a jet ski at 55 mph and see how you feel.... LOL The water feels more like pavement at that speed.

Well, there seems to be two major schools of thought about the found 815.

One set of theories posit the creation of a second 815 due to some interaction with the island. One copy of 815 crashed near Bali, while the other copy crashed on the island.

Another set of theories involve some conspiracy, with the found 815 being a plant.
Or that both 815s were planted.

Real world logistics? They had the plane from the original pilot episode. They re-used to for those underwater shots.

Reason for the fake aeroplane crash: TPTB (i think Ben) funding the fake plane wanted people to stop searching for 815 survivors. If they were searched long enough, it would jeopardize the islands location.

815 crashed to the island was because Des didn't push the button. John not getting killed because he didn't have a kidney, etc. = All part of universe course-correcting to reach the Valenzetti equation.

I know this doesn't prove one way or another whether it was faked or not.

If it was fake/planted wreckage....wouldn't it be a little over the top to actually fill it with luggage as shown in the debris field?

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h220/seaque/e9b2b69f.jpg

I totally agree with this premise--in fact I've been talking about pretty much the same thing with some of my RL friends for a while now. However, I don't think there need be 3 Charlies. We learned last night that Naomi was not at all who she presented herself to be to the Losties. She's a spy of some sort with black ops and military training. What she told Charlie might have been improved as a way to sell Charlie on the story she was telling them about who she was.

Yeah, you could be right, I pickled over how many Charlies there would have to be for a while, and came to the premise of 3, but as you say, I guess it's only her word that would suggest the need for so many, and we established that she is in fact full of shit....
100%
I think it's a time splice thing-- and the reason that the pilot on the undersea wreckage wasn't the pilot we met on the island (and the Helicopter pilot knew it wasn't him because of the wedding ring) is because in the alternate reality it was the helicopter pilot flying 815 as he was originally supposed to.

How would that work though, as the first plane would have to be the island one, then Des goes back, fiddles with time, a new reallity happens, plane crashes, sinks, all dead, which would have to happen after the island crash, but at the same time if that makes sense, so then the pilot would be dead, there wouldn't be an alternate version of him as Des had already gone back and fiddled, so the pilot wouldn't be alive to get recruited by Abaddon. Unless there were two of him living at the same time back in the 'real' world, which had to be course corrected so he died on the second 815.

I'm just a little confused trying to work out if there was a means for a second one of him to be created....though I have to agree that I thought the same thing when I saw it.

Sheez, I'm confusing myself now....

I know this doesn't prove one way or another whether it was faked or not.

If it was fake/planted wreckage....wouldn't it be a little over the top to actually fill it with luggage as shown in the debris field?

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h220/seaque/e9b2b69f.jpg

The news report that followed the undersea footage stated that the Christiane I had been searching for the remains of sunken trading ships. It's highly unlikely, given the proximity of that debris to the plane, but still possible that the luggage may be the remnants of cargo from such ships. I doubt it very much myself, but I just throw it out there as a thought.

I know this doesn't prove one way or another whether it was faked or not.

If it was fake/planted wreckage....wouldn't it be a little over the top to actually fill it with luggage as shown in the debris field?

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h220/seaque/e9b2b69f.jpg

I read your post on my thread, that is very interesting... If they weren't expecting to many people to go down there to check stuff, why going into so many details?
Like many people believed, they just needed a plane and some corpses.
Either it is an extremely well planned out fake (even when they forgot about the pilot's ring;) AND setting the plane in the weirdest possible place) or that is, at least, parts of the real Flight 815.

Also, does anyone else find intriguing when the ROV controller said something about picking up a lot of 'anomalies'...

MAN 1: My MAGNETOMETER is picking up a hell of a lot of anomalies around here.For those who followed the FIND 815 ARG, there were lots of electromagnetic interference over the area where the plane was found....

WHY?

Is the Island really in the Indian Ocean? Or its EM influence can be felt all the way over there? If so, how?

PORTAL!!! The fuselage and the tail were spewed out of the Snowglobe through the (EM) SINK HOLE.;)

Decoy? Possibly - but this show is all about timelines. I'm favoring that theory. Dharma was trying to affect the future by altering the past. The polar bear with a Dharma colllar unearthed in an archaelogical dig indicates that Dharma was playing with past events. The plane that was found was a crash that occurred in one timeline. Lapidus was the pilot. Events were changed (by Ben to fix his spinal tumor?) so that the Losties plane ends up on the island (but a different timeline is created). The time line change results in a different pilot and different set of people dying. The change in that timeline also is what prevents Christian Sheppard from dying. Jack returns to the new time line with his dad still in charge of the hospital. In the new time line Lapidus is a live. Somehow Oceanic knows about the change - they know Lapidus is alive. So they say that it's the other pilot in the cockpit - but Lapidus kind of blows that. It could explain why Faraday freaking out - he was one of the people that was on the plane that crashed in the other timeline. Somehow - he realizes that.

Then again - it could be a decoy. Lost is also a show all about cons, and this 815 on the ocean floor could just be a big con to fool the rest of the world. That would fit into the recurring theme in Lost as well.

Hmmm, maybe the pilot didn't have a wedding band because the corpse Frank was seeing was his own? Maybe in the alternate timeline, Frank DID get on the plane. Maybe he even recognized it, that's how he could be so sure without being able to say anything other than the ring is missing. Who would have stayed on the phone with him if he had said "I know it's not him because that's ME!" Just an idea (that I'm not sure even I buy).
But if I were to espouse alternate timelines (which I don't in relation to Lost :33: ), I do like the twist of the pilot's body actually being Lapidus'. The hair's the wrong color though.

I just have one question for those who might have some knowledge about how aviation works. How did the person operationg the underwater camera know instantly that the plane was Oceanic 815. I ask this beacuse I was under the impression that the flight number on a plane changed and was never hard stamped on the plane. It was as if with one glimpse of the wreckage he knew instantly that it was 815. Now I know that the crash made headline news but lets face it the crash sight was way off from where the plane should have been. These people have benn working on an exploration of some sort, which i would assume had them a little preoccupied, yet they instaltly concluded that this must be 815. Is the flight number painted on the outside of the plane?
As others have noted, a plane has a serial number painted on the outside, not the flight number. If someone faked the crash site, they clearly would have painted the original 815's serial number on the plane. But the underwater bot-operator's excitement certainly came from knowing about the crash and it was probably the only Oceanic plane to have crashed. I mean, we all know what United Flight 93 is, don't we?

Why all this talk of "wreckage"? All they showed on TV is exactly what we saw on TV -- images of what APPEARS to be a plane crash. But we're not assuming the producers of Lost actually crashed a plane, are we?

There's no physical evidence being presented to anyone - just TV images that could be faked in precisely the same way as the images we saw were created.

The Maxwell Group controlled all of the equipment - they could easily have simulated the entire thing.
The other important point to remember is that the wreck was "found" in an ocean trench 5000 meters deep (over 3 miles). At that depth only highly specialized reinforced equipment can operate - divers simply can't dive that deep. So the access can be controlled, and probably salvage efforts would be futile.
Or, it could be faked images altogether as you said. After all, that happens in the "real life" news we are fed from time to time.

Yeah, you could be right, I pickled over how many Charlies there would have to be for a while, and came to the premise of 3, but as you say, I guess it's only her word that would suggest the need for so many, and we established that she is in fact full of crap.....

Well, she didn't say they found Charlie on the plane - she said they found a member of Driveshaft, from her hometown. There are in fact two of those, Charlie and his brother. So there could be one Charlie on the island, one back in the world, and a dead Liam.

The other important point to remember is that the wreck was "found" in an ocean trench 5000 meters deep (over 3 miles). At that depth only highly specialized reinforced equipment can operate - divers simply can't dive that deep. So the access can be controlled, and probably salvage efforts would be futile.
Or, it could be faked images altogether as you said. After all, that happens in the "real life" news we are fed from time to time.

Yes, precisely so - isn't it convenient that the "wreckage" happens to be found in a place where no one else is likely to be able to confirm the story?

Yes, precisely so - isn't it convenient that the "wreckage" happens to be found in a place where no one else is likely to be able to confirm the story?
Yes, but it ain't convenient at all to place such fake wreckage in the wrong place. It just makes things even more suspicious.
Cooper said the plane crashed in the Pacific. So I would assume that is what the media said. So how come they found the plane in the Indian Ocean????
I'm dying to hear TPTB's explanation.

There's no physical evidence being presented to anyone - just TV images that could be faked in precisely the same way as the images we saw were created.

I agree. Since the plane is in a trench in the middle of the ocean, anyone who has S.C.U.B.A gear and a boat would not be able to see the wrekage. If this is a cover up, they wouldnt even need to put a plane at the bottom of the sea.
I do like both the ideas of a cover up , and the timeline thing.

ps, guess i didnt do the quote right.

Cooper said the plane crashed in the Pacific. So I would assume that is what the media said. So how come they found the plane in the Indian Ocean????
I'm dying to hear TPTB's explanation.

Well, I'm not a power that be's, but I can offer an explanation. The plane was found off the coast of Indonesia where the Pacific and Indian Oceans come together. Although it is technically in the Indian Ocean, it is pretty dang close to the Pacific. Cooper doesn't seem to be someone who would score very well in a geography quiz, so he probably was just wrong.

My theories:

2)Orchid Station style duplication/teleportation. But that doesn't explain the wrong pilot being in the seat.

i was just going to say, maybe it's the correct pilot, but before he got married....going along with the multiple timeline concept...but he married his 'high school sweetheart', and the guy in the wreckage was not 17 or 18 years old....hmmm. ok so now i'm back to thinking through the conspiracy ideas...

Well, I'm not a power that be's, but I can offer an explanation. The plane was found off the coast of Indonesia where the Pacific and Indian Oceans come together. Although it is technically in the Indian Ocean, it is pretty dang close to the Pacific. Cooper doesn't seem to be someone who would score very well in a geography quiz, so he probably was just wrong.

Yes but the Sunda Trench is exclusively in the Indian Ocean, not in the Pacific, and that's where the plane was found. According to Wikipedia, Indonesia is completely within the Indian Ocean. The Pacific doesn't start until probably 100 miles north of Indonesia.

It also doesn't explain that the plane is completely in the wrong location to where it's flight path and destination should have taken it.:shrug:

But I believe you're right, Cooper just assumed it was found in the Pacific because that's where it should have been.;)

That's exactly what I thought. "Um, dude. You just found an Oceanic plane. Not that specific one"

major commercial passenger airline disasters are uncommon. if you had recently heard of a huge airline losing a plane, i think that's exactly the type of reaction a recovery crew would have, even if they weren't looking for the plane

But I believe you're right, Cooper just assumed it was found in the Pacific because that's where it should have been.;)

Yeah, I mean, it's Cooper we're talking about, not Arzt, who would probably not only have been able to say it was in the Indian Ocean, but would then go on to give a lecture about how the Sunda Trench is one of the most geologically active fault zones in the world, as well as supplying you with information about the culture of Bali and the zoology of the ocean depths...

Cooper probably repeated what he heard on the news. And what he heard was that Flight 815 crashed in the Pacific Ocean and the plane was found on the bottom. Curiously he didn't make any references to Bali or the Indian Ocean. So what's going on? I mean is there more information about the plane that was told in the news that we haven't heard yet? Did Cooper hear any explanation as to why it was found so far away from its path? I mean he didn't look surprise about that fact? Like everybody else on the show so far????????????
It seems that we, the fans, are the only ones finding that little detail a little bit odd...;)

Is that a spoiler or a theory on your part?

The plane at the bottom ocean is complete.

How can it be the same plane, if we KNOW that one part is on the beach, the other part in the jungle (cockpit)?

The plane at the bottom ocean is complete.

How can it be the same plane, if we KNOW that one part is on the beach, the other part in the jungle (cockpit)?

correction: the fuselage of the plane was washed off the shore in season 1. The only remaining part (as a whole) on the island is the cockpit/front.

Locke brought Cooper to the island using the magic box. Imo Cooper is manifested to the island and may not be real, hence he thinks the plane crashed in the pacific as Locke would.

Locke brought Cooper to the island using the magic box. Imo Cooper is manifested to the island and may not be real, hence he thinks the plane crashed in the pacific as Locke would.
It has been confirmed by TPTB that Cooper was brought to the island by conventional means.

It has been confirmed by TPTB that Cooper was brought to the island by conventional means.

That doesn't mean that The Box didn't have something to do with it... :rolleyes:

It has been confirmed by TPTB that Cooper was brought to the island by conventional means.



I like the idea of manifestations not just being creations by the island, but also bringing real people or objects to the island. Such as Jack "fell from the sky" for Ben.

Of course this wouldn't explain Cooper (being the real Cooper) saying the wrong ocean.

I like the idea of manifestations not just being creations by the island, but also bringing real people or objects to the island. Such as Jack "fell from the sky" for Ben.

There are several good examples of this. For instance, when Juliet told Richard that she could not leave her job and come with them to the Island unless her ex-husband was hit by a bus, and then the very next morning - her ex-husband gets hit by a bus... That was, in my opinion, a good example of The Box putting things into motion to bring Juliet to the Island... through "conventional" ways of course...

correction: the fuselage of the plane was washed off the shore in season 1. The only remaining part (as a whole) on the island is the cockpit/front.

So... still not in the deep ocean. So it can't be the same.

BTW: Is a body not being crushed due to the pressure at a depth of 5 km.

Any theories as to why the plane was found of Indonesia in the Sundra Trench, rather than in the Pacific by Fiji?
Because it is really, really deep there: hence "no possibility of recovering the bodies".
100%
I just have one question for those who might have some knowledge about how aviation works. How did the person operationg the underwater camera know instantly that the plane was Oceanic 815.
How many Oceanic flights have disappeared in the southern oceans recently?
100%


I just don't see how anyone could "know" Desmond would make that choice and more importantly when he would do so. Unless of course Desmond is part of the conspiracy... :confused:
I was thinking that TheIsland/Jacob/Smokey/whatever can manipulate fate to serve its ends, including Desmond's behavior.

Of course I have no idea if any of this is right, but it sure is fun thinking about it.
100%
I know this doesn't prove one way or another whether it was faked or not.

If it was fake/planted wreckage....wouldn't it be a little over the top to actually fill it with luggage as shown in the debris field?

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h220/seaque/e9b2b69f.jpg

Not if you are a group of maniacal super-villains (think Dr. Evil on steroids) out to rule not only the present, but the future and the past as well.

Na-ha-ha-ha-ha!

BTW: Is a body not being crushed due to the pressure at a depth of 5 km.

Surprisingly, the answer is 'no'. The pressure would cause compression of the air spaces in your body. It would crush a person's lungs, but they would fill with water. The same with the air in the ears. Any internal water, such as that in the blood, would simply compress. Most of the rest of the body is made up of substances with a similar or the same density as water - water being a huge proportion of the make up of the human body.

Locke brought Cooper to the island using the magic box. Imo Cooper is manifested to the island and may not be real, hence he thinks the plane crashed in the pacific as Locke would.

Yeah, at first, I didn't think he was real either. I thought that maybe....the island didn't get the "recipe" right for cloned-Cooper because....he bites. I mean, what kind of person would do that; even someone in a desperate situation? The man was pure evil.


Of course I have no idea if any of this is right, but it sure is fun thinking about it.


Yes, I'm with you there. Welcome to my world. :smile:

Surprisingly, the answer is 'no'. The pressure would cause compression of the air spaces in your body. It would crush a person's lungs, but they would fill with water. The same with the air in the ears. Any internal water, such as that in the blood, would simply compress. Most of the rest of the body is made up of substances with a similar or the same density as water - water being a huge proportion of the make up of the human body.

Michaud, you really are an intelligent fellow. I enjoy reading your posts.....a wealth of information.

Michaud, you really are an intelligent fellow. I enjoy reading your posts.....a wealth of information.

I'm flattered. :)

Here's something interesting. Naomi never said that they'd recovered the bodies from Trench 815. In The Brig, Naomi tells Sayid that "all the bodies" were there when the robots surveyed the wreck. Frank's television went fuzzy at a particular moment in the news report in Confirmed Dead:

From Lostpedia


[In flashback, a plane falls gracefully to the bottom of a fish tank. We see the helicopter pilot, Frank Lapidus in a shop in Eleuthera, The Bahamas]

TV REPORTER: We wanna caution our viewers that the images they are about to see are graphic in nature. Viewer discretion is advised. Authorities have released dramatic footage of the sunken remains of Oceanic Flight 815. The National Transportation Safety Board has set up a hotline for family members of the Oceanic victims. The NTSB has begun the victim identification process.

[A photo of a man is shown on-screen next to underwater remains, and the hotline number]

TV REPORTER: We have confirmation that this is the pilot, Captain Seth Norris. In a statement, the NTSB said that quote...

[The television muffles and blurs. Frank hits it to bring the reception back]

TV REPORTER: ...recovery of the bodies will be next to impossible. We can only hope that identification will provide closure to the families of the victims. Unquote.

[Frank stares at the screen, noticing something. He grabs a phone and dials the
hotline number]

FEMALE OPERATOR: National Transportation Safety Board, Oceanic hotline.

FRANK: Yeah, let me speak to your supervisor.


We never have been given a reason why recovery of the bodies would be "next to impossible".

(I haven't played the ARGs, so I have no way of knowing whether this has been answered there. The answer hasn't been given in the show yet though.)

So... still not in the deep ocean. So it can't be the same.

BTW: Is a body not being crushed due to the pressure at a depth of 5 km.
Again, I give an explanation for this in my portal theory. Basically, the tail and the fuselage were pushed out of the snowglobe through the Exit portal. Picture it as a Sink Hole.

How could it not be a decoy plane? Obviously it's not the real plane. the real plane crashed on the island.

Are you sure?

Was the duplicate rabbit in the Orchid video the real rabbit or a decoy? I dont think the word decoy would apply to either rabbit

Was the second Penny polaroid a decoy too? There is no such thing as 2 polaroids--its the only modern camera that has no inherent duplicate(yet the writers chose this camera in the Time Travel episode among all other possible cameras to produce that photo.

How about Jacobs shack showing up in 3 different locations. Which one was the decoy? Was Bens mom a decoy of his real mom? How about Kates horse? Is that the Real horse or a decoy?

So is the plane on the island really the Real Plane? It seems if you follow the logical flow of the story, as presented, its more likely that if there is a decoy or copy--its the plane on the magical island--not in the ocean.

We have to stop thinking as if this is a normal world--any of it. What world has half its characters named after famous people and no one says a word about it? Did those famous people, as we know them on our world, ever exist in Losts world?

Could it be a decoy plane? Of course..but saying it can be nothing but a decoy flies in the face of the shows paradigm----which is utterly sureal.

Again, I give an explanation for this in my portal theory. Basically, the tail and the fuselage were pushed out of the snowglobe through the Exit portal. Picture it as a Sink Hole.

And how about the cockpit then? This part is still in the 'jungle'.

Some interesting ideas in this thread.

Just a minor point here to clarify.

A "wreckage" is the physical remnant (remains) of a "crash" i.e. the wreckage found at the bottom of the trench.

A "crash" is an event, i.e. the crash of flight 815.

A "crash site" is where the event happened, i.e. the crash occurred on the beach.

I think some people are getting confused as to the correct terms. I hope this clears it up.

Are you sure?
So is the plane on the island really the Real Plane? It seems if you follow the logical flow of the story, as presented, its more likely that if there is a decoy or copy--its the plane on the magical island--not in the ocean.

But that was cleared up pretty well in Tale of Two Cities, I thought. Ben and Co. watch the plane break up, he immediately mobilizes Ethan and Nathan to go look for survivors. Nothing was staged.

Hey, I think this is a huge clue:

very good points. I'd like to add to this, something I noticed in the Lapidas flashback: right at the start of that scene, Lapidas looks to be simulating the plane landing on the ocean floor by dropping a model plane into a fishtank (or something similar). He hasn't at that point seen the pilot -wedding ring yet, and he looks to be unsure that the way the plane is placed on the ocean floor is actually a viable way for the plane to have landed. My suspicion is that what we saw him doing, watching the model fall to the bottom of the fishtank and land in a certain way, he probably did this many times over to try to recreate the actual placement being shown on the footage he's seen on TV.

To me, that says that the plane was specifically placed on the ocean floor, and furthermore was done so in a way that it couldn't have naturally landed that way.

Don't know if this is of any significance, but it jumped out at my when I first saw that scene.

Great catch, Anarion! I just noticed this also, but you're the first I've seen with it on the boards. More specifically, when Lapidus drops the model plane in his aquarium, it lands *upside*down*, whereas in the video footage it has landed rightside up.

You can see it right at the 30:27 mark at abc.com (right after fourth commercial break). The scene begins with the plane floating to the bottom of the fish tank, and then a change of focus to reveal Lapidus staring through the tank at the plane intently. The way the whole thing plays out, it's as if the plane landing wrong is what gives Lapidus the idea something's fishy, causing him to notice the (lack of a) wedding ring.

Also, anybody else think it's kinda odd our ace pilot is working in the Caribean Dreams *boat*shop*? OK, so there's a model helicopter on top of the TV, but the bullet points on the window say, in order: * Diving * Snorkeling * Windsurfing * Fishing. I can see how, in the Caribbean, you might want a charter pilot to fly you to the spots for all these activities..... but it also implies that our man Lapidus has a knowledge of how things work underwater, and probably of undersea wrecks. So if he thinks something's up.....

Originally, I was leaning toward a black box / Orchid station / teleportation explanation for the crash. I was sort of thinking it was an Oceanic #815 from the future that somehow got teleported back in time, a la Dharma bunny #15 (YouTube search "LOST Orchid Orientation" if you have no idea what I'm talking about). But that would have meant that some sort of abnormal duplicate plane crashed under more or less normal circumstances. But the (not) upside-down-ness of the plane, combined with the missing wedding ring, definitely lends more support to the idea that the crash is an out-and-out fake. IMO.

Also, anybody else think it's kinda odd our ace pilot is working in the Caribean Dreams *boat*shop*? OK, so there's a model helicopter on top of the TV, but the bullet points on the window say, in order: * Diving * Snorkeling * Windsurfing * Fishing. I can see how, in the Caribbean, you might want a charter pilot to fly you to the spots for all these activities..... but it also implies that our man Lapidus has a knowledge of how things work underwater, and probably of undersea wrecks. So if he thinks something's up.....

He's also an alcoholic by all accounts. Perhaps he's banned from flying within the States?

Hey, I think this is a huge clue:



Great catch, Anarion! I just noticed this also, but you're the first I've seen with it on the boards. More specifically, when Lapidus drops the model plane in his aquarium, it lands *upside*down*, whereas in the video footage it has landed rightside up.

You can see it right at the 30:27 mark at abc.com (right after fourth commercial break). The scene begins with the plane floating to the bottom of the fish tank, and then a change of focus to reveal Lapidus staring through the tank at the plane intently. The way the whole thing plays out, it's as if the plane landing wrong is what gives Lapidus the idea something's fishy, causing him to notice the (lack of a) wedding ring.

Also, anybody else think it's kinda odd our ace pilot is working in the Caribean Dreams *boat*shop*? OK, so there's a model helicopter on top of the TV, but the bullet points on the window say, in order: * Diving * Snorkeling * Windsurfing * Fishing. I can see how, in the Caribbean, you might want a charter pilot to fly you to the spots for all these activities..... but it also implies that our man Lapidus has a knowledge of how things work underwater, and probably of undersea wrecks. So if he thinks something's up.....

Originally, I was leaning toward a black box / Orchid station / teleportation explanation for the crash. I was sort of thinking it was an Oceanic #815 from the future that somehow got teleported back in time, a la Dharma bunny #15 (YouTube search "LOST Orchid Orientation" if you have no idea what I'm talking about). But that would have meant that some sort of abnormal duplicate plane crashed under more or less normal circumstances. But the (not) upside-down-ness of the plane, combined with the missing wedding ring, definitely lends more support to the idea that the crash is an out-and-out fake. IMO.

I don't see how dropping a toy plane into a fishtank provides any sort of accurate simulation with which to formulate an opinion on the possibility of the placement of the wreckage a couple of miles down on ocean trench. I think that scene is just to tell us that he's pondering the crash.

Just looking at the wreckage as shown on the ROV footage should tell you that something isn't right. It's split into three pieces (exactly like the 815 that crashed on the island) but all the pieces are close together on the seabed? Doesn't seem likely to me unless it was supposed to have split up as it landed on the ocean floor yet stayed intact as it crashed into the ocean and sank.

But that was cleared up pretty well in Tale of Two Cities, I thought. Ben and Co. watch the plane break up, he immediately mobilizes Ethan and Nathan to go look for survivors. Nothing was staged.

Hey

Im not suggesting it was staged.

Im not suggesting it wasnt seen. But what else have people SEEN on that Island--are those things I mentioned Real?

So the point, if you read what I said again, is that the assumption that the trench plane is a decoy and the real plane is on the island would actually be the opposite of what the show's paradigm has been. Things that may not be real have only been shown on the Island thus far.

I don't see how dropping a toy plane into a fishtank provides any sort of accurate simulation with which to formulate an opinion on the possibility of the placement of the wreckage a couple of miles down on ocean trench. I think that scene is just to tell us that he's pondering the crash.

Just looking at the wreckage as shown on the ROV footage should tell you that something isn't right. It's split into three pieces (exactly like the 815 that crashed on the island) but all the pieces are close together on the seabed? Doesn't seem likely to me unless it was supposed to have split up as it landed on the ocean floor yet stayed intact as it crashed into the ocean and sank.

Agreed, the toy isn't going to hold up in court :biggrin:. But it does show -- and it sounds like you're with me on this -- that Lapidus didn't just pick up the phone because he saw the corpse wasn't wearing a wedding ring.... there are lots of things that aren't sitting right with him about the whole thing. And the diveshop locale suggests that he has the expertise about wrecks to know what he's talking about. The lack of the wedding ring was probably the "straw that broke the camels back" for him to call in.

Cooper probably repeated what he heard on the news. And what he heard was that Flight 815 crashed in the Pacific Ocean and the plane was found on the bottom. Curiously he didn't make any references to Bali or the Indian Ocean. So what's going on? I mean is there more information about the plane that was told in the news that we haven't heard yet? Did Cooper hear any explanation as to why it was found so far away from its path? I mean he didn't look surprise about that fact? Like everybody else on the show so far????????????
It seems that we, the fans, are the only ones finding that little detail a little bit odd...;)
Are you saying the news media was (intentionally) given incorrect information (plane crashing in Pacific Ocean) so the public would not be suspicious? That could be.

My take with Cooper's statement was that he heard on the news that it crashed off the coast of Bali, or near Indonesia, and he just assumed that was in the Pacific. As others here have pointed out, Cooper may be street smart but he doesn't seem to be a book-smart type.

Also, does anyone else find intriguing when the ROV controller said something about picking up a lot of 'anomalies'...

For those who followed the FIND 815 ARG, there were lots of electromagnetic interference over the area where the plane was found....

WHY?

Is the Island really in the Indian Ocean? Or its EM influence can be felt all the way over there? If so, how?

PORTAL!!! The fuselage and the tail were spewed out of the Snowglobe through the (EM) SINK HOLE.;)



When I read this, I couldnt stop thinking about how the DI and the Others used the submarine as their primary (and maybe only?) way of traveling to and from the Island...and how Juliet had to drink the orange juice with tranquilizer because it was to be such a bumpy ride. The alternate timeline theory just doesn't sit well with me, and there are too many yet to be explained questions revolving around the conspiracy theories, so I like seeing a thrid possibilty to this all.

And how about the cockpit then? This part is still in the 'jungle'.
You know? When the episode started I was getting VERY excited when they showed the plane broken in 2, until I saw the cockpit... That seemed to have destroyed my theory...
But not necessarily, not yet!
Just the cockpit may have been 'faked'. That's all they needed to...
When they found 2 parts of Flight 815 in the middle of the wrong ocean, they needed to do something about it to cover up their lies. Abaddon or whoever wasn't expecting the island to spit out the plane out of the Snowglobe. That messed up their plans. So they sank the front of another oceanic plane and put some corpses there. The pilot was identified, by Frank, as not being the right one.
100%
That doesn't mean that The Box didn't have something to do with it... :rolleyes:

Drugs, kidnapping and submarine....
100%
I like the idea of manifestations not just being creations by the island, but also bringing real people or objects to the island. Such as Jack "fell from the sky" for Ben.

Of course this wouldn't explain Cooper (being the real Cooper) saying the wrong ocean.

While I think Ben's magic box is much more than just a metaphorical thing, in this case I believe Ben was just playing around with John's mind. That is what he always does, after all, right?
I believe that Ben needed to prove to the Others that Locke wasn't the 'one', like many of them believe because of the whole 'walking again' stuff. It might be a native 'tradition' or ritual that the chosen one MUST pass. So they HAD to bring Cooper to the island, as the sacrifice demands. Don't forget that Ben had to go through a very similar situation wh