"It doesn't quite scatter right." That one line is still resonating in my head. Could it be artificial? An effect of the angle of the sun based on latitude? What does that mean?

It could be getting filtered by something strange in the air. Electromagnetic energy, polar bear fluff, Earth's outer core, Santa's invisible force field. I'm sure it means something, why else would Abbadon send a physicist, I just have no idea what it could mean.

I am going with the polar bear fluff. Hilarious!! :24:

Yeah, that is no throwaway line. He is a physicist "of sorts", so he certainly has some ideas swirling around in his head....

my first thought was that it had something to do with electromagnetic effects. i'm not sure how exactly that would impact the light, but if it can cause the aurora borealis/australis, it seems feasible that it would have some effect on everyday light. also possibly responsible for the occasional seemingly random day/night shifts?

"It doesn't quite scatter right." That one line is still resonating in my head. Could it be artificial? An effect of the angle of the sun based on latitude? What does that mean?

Ooo. I'm glad you brought that up. I forgot about it by the end of the episode. Could this be more evidence to support the "hollow earth" theory?

I don't think electormagnetic effects would change the light. I think the line was telling us he has some sort of special power.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scattering

This is interesting. I am sure there is more about it out there but I haven't gotten that far.

Maybe if they are in some sort of dome in a cold climate that the dome scatters the light differently?

I started a thread earlier but I think it's been pushed back to page 3 or so about a famous physicist named Faraday and his contributions to electromagnetics and electrochemistry. There is some stuff in the article about light rays as well but I don't understand all of it!! Here's another link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Faraday

I started a thread earlier but I think it's been pushed back to page 3 or so about a famous physicist named Faraday and his contributions to electromagnetics and electrochemistry. There is some stuff in the article about light rays as well but I don't understand all of it!! Here's another link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Faraday

Good find. Some interesting stuff, to stay on topic, dig into the Faraday Effect:

"the first experimental evidence that light and electromagnetism are related. The theoretical basis for that relation, now called electromagnetic radiation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_radiation), was further developed by James Clerk Maxwell (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Clerk_Maxwell) in the 1860s and 1870s."

He's on to something between his statement and his name.

From Lostpedia:

Michael Faraday was an English chemist and physicist who contributed to electromagnetism as a field of study. From Wikipedia: "He established that magnetism could affect rays of light and that there was an underlying relationship between the two phenomena." In this episode, Faraday comments on abnormalities in the light rays on the island.
http://lostpedia.com/wiki/Confirmed_Dead

This was definitely a strange line to throw out there. I think it is more evidence to the "hollow earth" theory.

I don't think electormagnetic effects would change the light. I think the line was telling us he has some sort of special power.

Ooo, very interesting...

Good find. Some interesting stuff, to stay on topic, dig into the Faraday Effect:

"the first experimental evidence that light and electromagnetism are related. The theoretical basis for that relation, now called electromagnetic radiation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_radiation), was further developed by James Clerk Maxwell (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Clerk_Maxwell) in the 1860s and 1870s."

He's on to something between his statement and his name.

The find815 ARG gave us an Easter Egg which led a bunch of folks to research Faraday and his work. It is definitiely going to have some meaning to the Island's mysteries...

Also, you'd be interested to know, if you didn't play the game, we were introduced to a Maxwell Group, which is a division of Widmore Corporation. Again, a reference to James Clerk Maxwell and Michael Faraday...

SCATTERING THEORY:
scattering consists of the study of how solutions of partial differential equations, propagating freely "in the distant past", come together and interact with one another and then propagate away "to the distant future". In acoustics, the differential equation is the wave equation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wave_equation), and scattering studies how its solutions, the sound waves, scatter from solid objects or propagate through non-uniform media (such as sound waves, in sea water, coming from a submarine). In quantum mechanics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mechanics) and particle physics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Particle_physics), the equations are those of quantum electrodynamics QED (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_electrodynamics), quantum chromodynamics QCD (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_chromodynamics) and the Standard Model (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Model), the solutions of which correspond to fundamental particles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_particle). In quantum chemistry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_chemistry), the solutions correspond to atoms and molecules, governed by the Schrödinger equation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schr%C3%B6dinger_equation) (of the Schrödinger's cat (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schr%C3%B6dinger%27s_cat) thought experiment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thought_experiment))

An example of scattering -- is a frequency shift in the electromagnetic spectrum. The phenomenon occurs in several closely related phenomena in radiation physics, with analogous effects occurring in the scattering of light. (Such as the event on the Island that 'turned the sky purple')

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scattering

This is interesting. I am sure there is more about it out there but I haven't gotten that far.

Wow, lots of clues and tie-ins here. (Too many to list) Did you notice the Rutherford reference, too? (Shannon and her Dad's last name)

From Lostpedia:

Michael Faraday was an English chemist and physicist who contributed to electromagnetism as a field of study. From Wikipedia: "He established that magnetism could affect rays of light and that there was an underlying relationship between the two phenomena."

That gives me a wild idea: maybe the reason that some of the Lost characters are given historical names (like Michael Faraday, John Locke, Desmond Hume) is that they are these famous people reincarnated by the island.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scattering

This is interesting. I am sure there is more about it out there but I haven't gotten that far.

Love the link! Thanks....

Your link talks about electromagnetic scattering. It mentions light and radio(especially in radar) wave scattering.....hmmmmmmm..... ;)

I also see a mention of nanoparticles & the effect of electromagnetic light on it's properties. Interesting stuff!

Wow, that's a lot of meaning to such a small line! I look forward to learning more about this.

It immediately made me think of the island as a giant greenhouse in the north or south pole (hollow earth). If there was some kind of force field keeping the island tropical, I would think the light filtered through the shield would be diffused weirdly.

Now that I see the electromagnetism-on-light effects being brought up, and with the real Faraday researching this, I am more inclined to think about that instead.

I also wonder if the way the light is filtered is now different because of "that time when the sky turned purple" (season 2 finale, swan station implosion).

What if our freightie is a descendant of this guy?

I started a thread on this in spoiler theories yesterday-came up wih an interestin fact

http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.phpt=87852
In tonights episode Daniel makes a statement that "the light doesnt scatter quite right"
This statment piqued my interest and came up with this : " light scattering is one of the two major physical processes that contribute to the visible appearance of most objects, the other being absorption. Electomagnetic waves are one of the best known and most commonly encountered form of radiation that undergo scattering." This, i believe, is the reason why the island cannot be seen using electronic methods. The high levels of electromagnetivity pretty much makes the island invisible and i also think the reason Daniel is there is to find out why the island cannot be located and possibly to reverse the effects to make the island " visible " .

Anybody else pick up on this as Faraday was marveling over how the light failed to scatter in a manner which he was accustomed. Sounds like the building blocks to a theory as to why the island is so hard to find.....

Anybody else pick up on this as Faraday was marveling over how the light failed to scatter in a manner which he was accustomed. Sounds like the building blocks to a theory as to why the island is so hard to find.....

Yep. They made sure it was right out there, something you'd notice. How about the light scatters funny cuz they're in a snowglobe type of thing (hahahah) Any theory is possible right? :biggrin::biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:

I'm glad they're finally addressing it.
Seems to me with only 8 episodes in the can, they seem to be rushing a few Q and A's our way.

Anybody else pick up on this as Faraday was marveling over how the light failed to scatter in a manner which he was accustomed. Sounds like the building blocks to a theory as to why the island is so hard to find.....


Yeah I picked up on that too. It definitely has to be a clue as to why the Island is almost impossible to find.

i'm really glad someone brought this up... i didn't really look for it in the threads yet, but i had wanted to see what people thought about this. is there another thread or is this really the start of it?

i'm a physics major and it's been awhile since i took an optics course, but i was incredibly surprised that he made this statement with no equipment... unless i missed it?

so, in the most basic sense, no scattering could mean that there aren't as many particles for the photons to interact with. or somehow the light source is emitting organized laser-esque radiation. the laser-esque option would mean that the wavelength of the light would have to span a smaller range than the normal red-to-blue spectrum we see everyday. this would mean that the light would look colored rather than white (since, in light, the conglomeration of all colors is white), which COULD be how Faraday knew the light doesn't scatter as much. but i doubt that since we would have noticed ...

one last thing to say about Faraday (the real-life physicist that dealt with ...) well here's a link b/c i don't think i could describe it that well:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faraday_Cage

I was looking up experiments by the scientist Faraday and he done extensive work with light and electromagnetism and the connection between the two.

Basically he discovered that light can be affected by electromagnetic fields and when it passes through this field it refracts slightly. This refraction of the light causes it to scatter slightly differently than natural sunlight would.

What I think this means is that it confirms our Losties are in a snowglobe type thing which is actually a magnetic field type thing (possibly magnetic force field, thats why all the planes and helicopters instruments go crazy when they pass through it)

Possibly pushing the numbers kept the field down but as the numbers rise to 108 the field gains strength. The Losties crashed because, although the hatch still existed then, the numbers were at 108 so it was at maximum energy.

Once the hatch imploded it put the field up permanently, which is why Ben had that happy smirk on his face at the docks. He knew the island would be much better protected now. Thats also why Naomi's helicopter and the new helicopter lost control of their electronic deviced as they passed through the "lightning/electric storm" which was actually the field.

Thats how I see it at least

Well... it should be noted that "light scattering" is based on the fact that

most surfaces are uneven. Light rays bounce off them in all directions.

Materials which have smooth surfaces reflect light in a regular way.
Shiny metals, glass and mirrors affect light in this way.

I was looking up experiments by the scientist Faraday and he done extensive work with light and electromagnetism and the connection between the two.

Basically he discovered that light can be affected by electromagnetic fields and when it passes through this field it refracts slightly. This refraction of the light causes it to scatter slightly differently than natural sunlight would.

What I think this means is that it confirms our Losties are in a snowglobe type thing which is actually a magnetic field type thing (possibly magnetic force field, thats why all the planes and helicopters instruments go crazy when they pass through it)

Possibly pushing the numbers kept the field down but as the numbers rise to 108 the field gains strength. The Losties crashed because, although the hatch still existed then, the numbers were at 108 so it was at maximum energy.

Once the hatch imploded it put the field up permanently, which is why Ben had that happy smirk on his face at the docks. He knew the island would be much better protected now. Thats also why Naomi's helicopter and the new helicopter lost control of their electronic deviced as they passed through the "lightning/electric storm" which was actually the field.

Thats how I see it at leastWow, Walt, great explanation! I didn't understand this much but you cleared it up for me. One question: Would the "force field" stop outside communications? I'm just wondering why, if the island was then so well protected, Ben felt a need to jam the signals because after the SWAN implosion he said all communications were down (which I thought was because of the implosion).

I was looking up experiments by the scientist Faraday and he done extensive work with light and electromagnetism and the connection between the two.

Basically he discovered that light can be affected by electromagnetic fields and when it passes through this field it refracts slightly. This refraction of the light causes it to scatter slightly differently than natural sunlight would.

What I think this means is that it confirms our Losties are in a snowglobe type thing which is actually a magnetic field type thing (possibly magnetic force field, thats why all the planes and helicopters instruments go crazy when they pass through it)

Possibly pushing the numbers kept the field down but as the numbers rise to 108 the field gains strength. The Losties crashed because, although the hatch still existed then, the numbers were at 108 so it was at maximum energy.

Once the hatch imploded it put the field up permanently, which is why Ben had that happy smirk on his face at the docks. He knew the island would be much better protected now. Thats also why Naomi's helicopter and the new helicopter lost control of their electronic deviced as they passed through the "lightning/electric storm" which was actually the field.

Hey, I like that! Very nice theory. It seems quite logical given what we know.

I was looking up experiments by the scientist Faraday and he done extensive work with light and electromagnetism and the connection between the two.

Basically he discovered that light can be affected by electromagnetic fields and when it passes through this field it refracts slightly. This refraction of the light causes it to scatter slightly differently than natural sunlight would.

What I think this means is that it confirms our Losties are in a snowglobe type thing which is actually a magnetic field type thing (possibly magnetic force field, thats why all the planes and helicopters instruments go crazy when they pass through it)

Possibly pushing the numbers kept the field down but as the numbers rise to 108 the field gains strength. The Losties crashed because, although the hatch still existed then, the numbers were at 108 so it was at maximum energy.

Once the hatch imploded it put the field up permanently, which is why Ben had that happy smirk on his face at the docks. He knew the island would be much better protected now. Thats also why Naomi's helicopter and the new helicopter lost control of their electronic deviced as they passed through the "lightning/electric storm" which was actually the field.

Thats how I see it at least

Walt-

That's the finest explanation of the EM phenomenon and the need for the Swan Hatch that I've read since we discovered the infamous hatch. You're unsderstanding has clarified it for me and others. Excellent!

I'm no physicist or expert in light but here are a few random thoughts that we should discuss:

1- Light is made of both energy and waves/particles

2- Quantum Mechanics has proven that photons -- individual light particles -- can actually pass through solid objects

"Scattering" must be a technical term with regards to light. I'll do some research and see if I can come up with something.

100%
I did a wiki search and sure enough there is a technical term "scattering."

This is the opening paragraph from wiki:


Scattering is a general physical process whereby some forms of radiation, such as light, sound or moving particles, for example, are forced to deviate from a straight trajectory by one or more localized non-uniformities in the medium through which it passes. In conventional use, this also includes deviation of reflected radiation from the angle predicted by the law of reflection. Reflections that undergo scattering are often called diffuse reflections and unscattered reflections are called specular (mirror-like) reflections.

The types of non-uniformities that can cause scattering, sometimes known as scatterers or scattering centers, are too numerous to list, but a small sample includes particles, bubbles, droplets, density fluctuations in fluids, defects in crystalline solids, surface roughness, cells in organisms, and textile fibers in clothing. The effects of such features on the path of almost any type of propagating wave or moving particle can be described in the framework of scattering theory.


Apparently there is also a term called "electromagnetic scattering" but I haven't got that far since I'm still trying to wrap my head around this.

I am a chemist and my sister is a physicist so we were going nuts when we heard his name was Faraday, he was a physicist and the light scattering line. Also, we talked about optics today in an instrumentation class I am taking and I felt the weirdness of the connection between last night's show and the lecture.

Anywho, since all of this was brought up, I think we are going to find out more about the EM phenomena this season. Finally!!!!

Does anyone know about cloaking devices?

Isn't it an EM energy that causes light to bend thus creating the illusion of invisibility? You know like in Star Trek?

This would support the EM snow globe theory at the north pole and would explain why the island can't be seen, because the EM is bending the light.

After TBOTE soem people brought up HOlmium and the fact that it was a great EM conductor. What if the island is largely comprised of holmium in its rock? That might explain the island's special properties.

I was looking up experiments by the scientist Faraday and he done extensive work with light and electromagnetism and the connection between the two.

Basically he discovered that light can be affected by electromagnetic fields and when it passes through this field it refracts slightly. This refraction of the light causes it to scatter slightly differently than natural sunlight would.

What I think this means is that it confirms our Losties are in a snowglobe type thing which is actually a magnetic field type thing (possibly magnetic force field, thats why all the planes and helicopters instruments go crazy when they pass through it)

Possibly pushing the numbers kept the field down but as the numbers rise to 108 the field gains strength. The Losties crashed because, although the hatch still existed then, the numbers were at 108 so it was at maximum energy.

Once the hatch imploded it put the field up permanently, which is why Ben had that happy smirk on his face at the docks. He knew the island would be much better protected now. Thats also why Naomi's helicopter and the new helicopter lost control of their electronic deviced as they passed through the "lightning/electric storm" which was actually the field.

Thats how I see it at least


Very interesting....I'd like to add something:

What if Inman was put on the island by the same folks who now want to take Ben home with them( which is an interesting spin considering that Ben took some Losties home from the dock). By putting Inman there, he can control the electromagnetic field, thus giving them(the outsiders) a better chance to find the island instead of after the sky turning purple.

For the physicist guy with the 2nd post: Thanks for the scientific backup. And I am probably treading into dangerous territory challenging a known physicist, but can't the conglomerate of all colors of light also be black, depending on whether the surface is reflecting or absorbing it?:confused:

HH - Great post. It jumped out of me as well. Kate's reaction to Daniel's statement was along the lines of "Weirdo", but it was a genuinely big clue from the writers.

HH/Eight/Walt - Interesting stuff, and I've enjoyed reading a lot of the snow globe-related threads that have appeared recently. This (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philadelphia_Experiment) has been in the back of my mind for a few days. It offers up some ideas about how one might try and produce the effect of a 'cloaking device'.

The involvement of the military in the Philadelhia Experment tself brings me back to my long-held belief that the Military, or at least militarily ambitious people, have a lot to do with what's going on in the show. It's a theme JJ Abrams likes.

Anyway. Off topic now.

Peace
M

I know this is probably far less scientifically specific to Michael Faraday's work, but since I've been thinking all along (as have many others) that the island is wormhole or other dimensional anomaly, I had a slightly different take on his light-scattering comment. If he had been assigned to the team because he was a string-theorist of some ilk, he might have just been marveling at the qualities of the place, the odd quality of light being the first. Sort of like when Laura Dern and Sam Neill get to see the live dinosaurs in Jurrasic Park: here is something they've loved and studied in the abstract, suddenly made palpably real.

What do you true-scientist types think? Also, what's your take on the name-drop of Minkowski (on the freighter)?

If you care to critique or just have a laugh at one scientist-wannabe's theory, check the thread linked to in my sig. I've just never been able to get over/past the fantastic detail of Desmond going back to the past, finding himself covered in 'blood' (really paint) that came out of the 'future' (name on paint can). I'm sure I've got my terms all bollocks-upped, as Charlie might say, but I do my best.

HH - Great post. It jumped out of me as well. Kate's reaction to Daniel's statement was along the lines of "Weirdo", but it was a genuinely big clue from the writers.

HH/Eight/Walt - Interesting stuff, and I've enjoyed reading a lot of the snow globe-related threads that have appeared recently. This (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philadelphia_Experiment) has been in the back of my mind for a few days. It offers up some ideas about how one might try and produce the effect of a 'cloaking device'.

The involvement of the military in the Philadelhia Experment tself brings me back to my long-held belief that the Military, or at least militarily ambitious people, have a lot to do with what's going on in the show. It's a theme JJ Abrams likes.

Anyway. Off topic now.

Peace
M


Didn't that have to do with the military cloaking their battleships?

If light can be scattered to cloak an island, do you suppose it could be scattered to cloak people?

Didn't that have to do with the military cloaking their battleships?

Indeed, and it's widely regarded as a hoax, but it's interesting as a thought experiment if one considers that nobody has ever produced a successful cloaking device for light, and there appear to be a few things going on at this island that shouldn't really be possible given our current understanding of physics (and biology). Electromagnetism is mentioned a lot in cloaking device theories, but I'm sure this has already been addressed in some of the EM-related threads I've read.

I'm confused, I thought pressing the button kept the island hidden & now it is not. Like when 815 crashed, it was because Desmond did not press the button right away, allowing the plane to pass through???

Very interesting! In the Find 815 ARG, Sam saw something like the Aurora Borealis when they were surveying the oceans around the Sunda Trench, do you science guys think he might have been seeing particles bouncing off the island's EM field?

This is why Dharma used a submarine to go to and from the island, being under the sea its not effected by the electromagnatism. Submarines use inertial guidance system which is a series of gyroscopes to guide them. Plus a compass.

I think this is the most interesting thread for this episode :) So interesting to read everyone's thoughts! I loved how he said that line as well..

I'm not a scientist but an artist for as long as I can recall. I've always wondered about this fact. Light is explained in RGB or Red Green and Blue. But reflected colors, the primary colors we see, are Red Blue and Yellow. We all learned this in elementary school. You mix Yellow with Blue to get Green, Red and Blue to get Purple, Red and Yellow to get Orange and so on.

So Green is not really a primary reflected color. I've never really understood how Green could be a primary light source color and that Yellow is nowhere to be found in the light spectrum. Is Yellow the phantom, or is Green?

Of course in the reflected colors I've left out the all important Black & White (the color police of values). Maybe a hint?

Hmmm. Please help me out here.

Don't even get me started on printing inks CMYK.;)

wow, i've been trying to find a flaw in this theory, and i can't! the HO from TBOTE, the light "not scattering right", FARADAY, the Faraday cage, it all fits! it's as if the island is a giant Faraday cage, on the inside of the cage you are protected from the electromagnetism, but it concentrates on the outside of the cage, so anyone approaching from outside the island would have to go through a "wall" of built-up electro-magnetic energy.

so, is this a naural property of the island? if it's composed of a high percentage of Holmium, I would think so. also, how does this relate to any of the other mysteries on the show, if at all? could the incredibly strong electro-magnetism of the island be causing any of the other "anomalies" we've seen? so many questions brought up by this "answer", i love this show!

This was mentioned in a thread I started elsewhere, but the key here is the
Faraday Effect.


Faraday discovered that a magnetic field has the power to rotate the plane of
polarized light passing through certain transparent dielectric materials (including
crystal, plastic, glass, and water). The effect is not that of the magnetic field on the
light but rather of the magnetic field on the materials themselves.


If we assume that Daniel is commenting on the polarization of the light being odd
(perhaps perceived as glare) then we know there's a strong magnetic field around
the island (not surprising) and that the sunlight must be passing through some other
transparent material before reaching the ground. If the latter wasn't true then the
magnetic field would not have any noticable effect on the light. I am assuming
here that the light is partially polarized to begin with perhaps as it passes through
Earth's atmosphere.


So I think that this statement is hinting at the island being inside of a snow globe
or under water.
100%
I'm not a scientist but an artist for as long as I can recall. I've always wondered about this fact. Light is explained in RGB or Red Green and Blue. But reflected colors, the primary colors we see, are Red Blue and Yellow. We all learned this in elementary school. You mix Yellow with Blue to get Green, Red and Blue to get Purple, Red and Yellow to get Orange and so on.

So Green is not really a primary reflected color. I've never really understood how Green could be a primary light source color and that Yellow is nowhere to be found in the light spectrum. Is Yellow the phantom, or is Green?

Of course in the reflected colors I've left out the all important Black & White (the color police of values). Maybe a hint?

Hmmm. Please help me out here.

Don't even get me started on printing inks CMYK.;)


Primary colors aren't a physical property of light. Light is a continuous electromagnetic
spectrum. So both green and yellow wavelengths (and all shades thereof) occur
uniquely in the spectrum. The human eye contains three types of receptors which
each respond to only one narrow range of color and the brain mixes them to
make the colors we see so that's where that comes from. FWIW, some mammals have
eyes that can perceive two or four color ranges natively.

I no everyone is just taking this as them showin us that Daniel is a lil weird but can anyone think of a reason why light wouldnt be 'scattered' right on the island? I could see them sneakin something real simple in there that turns out to be important later on.

I preface this by saying I'm no scientist.

But! Maybe light isn't scattering because there's nothing for it to bounce off of. That means everyone there in an astral projection. ;)

I agree that maybe this was just show show he's a little odd in the head and what not but I also think there's a bit more to it than just that. He's a physicist that deals with electromagnetism and stuff right? I think with the island's many unusual traits/properties and its unusually strong ties with electromagnetism maybe the light really IS scattering in weird ways...as if the island was somehow tilted differently or off from its axis or something.

Not that I think it's a big deal maybe just adds more to the island being separated/existing on another plane/dimension different from the Earth.

Light bends in the presence of severe gravitational anomalies like black holes....

I preface this by saying I'm no scientist.

But! Maybe light isn't scattering because there's nothing for it to bounce off of. That means everyone there in an astral projection. ;)


Hmmm, I dunno... I think light scattering differently would look different that light not scattering at all.

Hmmm, I dunno... I think light scattering differently would look different that light not scattering at all.

Hmmm, maybe I'll take some art history classes instead of astro physics :grin:

light scattering is what makes different colors. think of a prism. like the one on pink floyd's Dark Side of the Moon.

What if it's scattering differently because it's not real sunlight?
Or sunlight filtered through some sort of field?

Check out the Wiki definition: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scattering

ROY G BIV

Red, Orange, Yellow, Green, Blue, Violet and Indigo. :)

The Philadelphia Experiment was an American attempt to create a cloaking device by the US Navy during WWII. Allegedly Nicolai Tesla was even involved in the experiment becasue of his mastery of coils.

Apparently giant electro-coils were placed on the ship and charged while the ship was in the harbor of Philly. According to the legend NOT only did the ship disappear from sight it also disappeared from time.

From the sources I've read over the years the ship actually reappeared in a harbor down south and then later reappeared in Philly. Once the ship reappeared it was said that the sailors were in a state of panic. Alot of them had been fused to the ship's bulkhead and many others were running around stark, raving mad.

According to the movie made in the 80's two sailors actually fell off the ship at some point and appeared in Nevada sometime during the 80's.

Essentially the story is about cloaking devices and time travel.

ROY G BIV

Red, Orange, Yellow, Green, Blue, Violet and Indigo. :)

The Philadelphia Experiment was an American attempt to create a cloaking device by the US Navy during WWII. Allegedly Nicolai Tesla was even involved in the experiment becasue of his mastery of coils.

Apparently giant electro-coils were placed on the ship and charged while the ship was in the harbor of Philly. According to the legend NOT only did the ship disappear from sight it also disappeared from time.

From the sources I've read over the years the ship actually reappeared in a harbor down south and then later reappeared in Philly. Once the ship reappeared it was said that the sailors were in a state of panic. Alot of them had been fused to the ship's bulkhead and many others were running around stark, raving mad.

According to the movie made in the 80's two sailors actually fell off the ship at some point and appeared in Nevada sometime during the 80's.

Essentially the story is about cloaking devices and time travel.

Also, when the ship is supposed to have disappeared, there was allegdly a large flash of blue light. My mind immediately turned to the sky turning purple when Desmond turned the failsafe key

M

I was looking up experiments by the scientist Faraday and he done extensive work with light and electromagnetism and the connection between the two.

Basically he discovered that light can be affected by electromagnetic fields and when it passes through this field it refracts slightly. This refraction of the light causes it to scatter slightly differently than natural sunlight would.

What I think this means is that it confirms our Losties are in a snowglobe type thing which is actually a magnetic field type thing (possibly magnetic force field, thats why all the planes and helicopters instruments go crazy when they pass through it)

Possibly pushing the numbers kept the field down but as the numbers rise to 108 the field gains strength. The Losties crashed because, although the hatch still existed then, the numbers were at 108 so it was at maximum energy.

Once the hatch imploded it put the field up permanently, which is why Ben had that happy smirk on his face at the docks. He knew the island would be much better protected now. Thats also why Naomi's helicopter and the new helicopter lost control of their electronic deviced as they passed through the "lightning/electric storm" which was actually the field.

Thats how I see it at least

I really like this speculation by Walt. I also liike what Eight added to it.


That's the finest explanation of the EM phenomenon and the need for the Swan Hatch that I've read since we discovered the infamous hatch. You're unsderstanding has clarified it for me and others. Excellent!

I think besides his line being a good clue, I find it very interesting that he noticed this with the naked eye. I think that, too, says something about him possibly have some ability. And, I think, it goes along with his sad emotions when he saw the new footage about the plane. I think he's somehow very sensitive to *things.* What things ... we'll have to wait and see. :biggrin:

wow, i've been trying to find a flaw in this theory, and i can't! the HO from TBOTE, the light "not scattering right", FARADAY, the Faraday cage, it all fits! it's as if the island is a giant Faraday cage, on the inside of the cage you are protected from the electromagnetism, but it concentrates on the outside of the cage, so anyone approaching from outside the island would have to go through a "wall" of built-up electro-magnetic energy.

so, is this a naural property of the island? if it's composed of a high percentage of Holmium, I would think so. also, how does this relate to any of the other mysteries on the show, if at all? could the incredibly strong electro-magnetism of the island be causing any of the other "anomalies" we've seen? so many questions brought up by this "answer", i love this show!

Such as healing properties? :renske:

I like Walt's theory about the numbers entered indicating levels of magnetic strength. Here's an interesting add on. What if when Desmond failed to punch in the numbers flight 815 was actually attempting to land at a secret air strip, as there would be a gap in the magnetic field? But he failed, and the plane was pummelled by the unexpected presence of the field.

This is pretty far fetched, but here it goes lol:

During World War II, it is rumored that the idea of cloaking a battleship with an electromagnetic field was tested. The tests were succeful, but when the ship was cloaked, it was never found again. It is theorized that this ship (if the events ever happened) slipped into a Closed timelike curve (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Closed_timelike_curve) or CTC for short. A CTC is a path through 4-dimensional space-time that is closed, which means it returns to its starting point. Which means causality, fundamental to all science, breaks down. Technically events no longer need a cause, or even a cause and effect can happen simultaneously. This opens the door for time travel.


The island's electromagnetic field is strong enough to pull the island into a CTC. This would account for it to being hard to find, but also to many other things. Such as Desmond's visions and his attempts at changing fate, since the path is closed the events will repeat themselves until they happen. And when Locke's legs and Rose's cancer were healed, no cause, just effect. The island is disconnected from the rest of the world's space time, permitting time travel. All this adds up to the island being "special."

I have some other theories (http://www.docarzt.com/lost-theories/koobies-physics-theory-it-does.php), but they are pretty much the same as what has been said here.

Koobie, I think if you look in the Speculation--> general theories section, you'll see that there are lots of like-minded folks here. Join us!

Koobie - I mentioned the Philadelphia Experiment story earlier in the thread. Definitely with you on this, and I'd take up Future Paint's recommendation

Peace
M

"how does your light shine, in the halls of Shambala?"

What if our freightie is a descendant of this guy?

I know a direct desendent of John Locke - not kidding.

...
And I am probably treading into dangerous territory challenging a known physicist, but can't the conglomerate of all colors of light also be black, depending on whether the surface is reflecting or absorbing it?:confused:

lets look at it this way: there is a white shirt, a blue shirt, and a black shirt. we then shine a purely red light onto all shirts. the white shirt will look red while both the blue and black shirts will look black. now we shine a purely blue light on all the shirts. the black shirt still looks black, and now both the white and blue shirts look blue. finally, we shine a white light (which is all the colors combined) at the three shirts, and the white looks white, the black black and the blue blue.

this happens because the white shirt reflects all of the colors, the blue shirt only reflects blue and absorbes the rest, and black absorbes all colors. so, you are dead on that black comes from a surface absorbing all the colors, but what is the resultant light coming off the black shirt into your eyes? NO colors! black is the absence of reflecting colors, independent of the initial characteristics of the light source.

i hope that made sense? because you technically answered your own question when you said "absorbed"

Study "LIGHT" here http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/gamma/spec_vislight.html

and here http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/search-results.html?q=scattered+light+on+earth.

From Lostpedia:

Michael Faraday was an English chemist and physicist who contributed to electromagnetism as a field of study. From Wikipedia: "He established that magnetism could affect rays of light and that there was an underlying relationship between the two phenomena." In this episode, Faraday comments on abnormalities in the light rays on the island.
http://lostpedia.com/wiki/Confirmed_Dead

Besides hinting at the electromagnetism surrounding the island, the writers could be trying to tell us something about Daniel Faraday's character. Maybe Faraday -- whose name is so closely related to the real-world physicist who discovered a relationship between magnetism and rays of light -- will discover a similar relationship on the island, as well. Perhaps his crewmembers will find that their helicopter cannot leave the island while the electromagnetic field is so strong, and Faraday will find a way to suspend the electromagnetism long enough for them (and eventually somehow the Oceanic 6?) to depart.

Definitely think the weather is artificial....It wud also explain how locke is always able to predict the weather by looking up to the sky..?!?

Light bends in the presence of severe gravitational anomalies like black holes....


I hear ya. When TPTB showed the guy guarding Carl in the Clockwork Orange Room(see God Loves Jacob as He Loves You flash sequence), he was reading a copy of "A Brief History of Time" by Stephen Hawking. The page he was opened to was regarding the refraction/reflection of light around black holes and how the gravity effects such light. That made me think that someone was able to simulate the environment of a black hole somewhere on earth, which now seems iffy at best to me because I like the electromagnetic aspect to this. I can't even begin to summarize the Hawking black hole stuff, but here's a link to the pages the guy was looking at:


http://www.thetailsection.com/lost-bhot-01.jpg

http://www.thetailsection.com/lost-bhot-02.jpg
100%
Definitely think the weather is artificial....It wud also explain how locke is always able to predict the weather by looking up to the sky..?!?


Locke is like the LOST island beast let out of the cage....he knows all and sees all on the island. Unless this is like the movie "The Truman Show," which would be lame...

We have been pondering how to explain the daytime changes, if they are at north pole.

One explanation is the sun and moon are artificially created, or atleast the sun.

I believe during daytime sunlight is projected from a satellite orbiting the earth. When night time is approaching, the light is dimmed little by little, so the real moon shows up to the sky.

best line of the episode, faraday on the way light scatters on the island.

according to the original faraday (the 19th century faraday), the correlation between the way light "scatters" (the sun's radiation) and electromagetism (the island's natural powers) has something to do with time-travel.

Have we even seen a sunset? I honestly can't remember a scene with our losties staring at a sunset.

I think that line was just TPTB way of telling us "There's just something not quite right about this island"...told from a man who might know what to look for when observing his surroundings. The Losties accept the island for what it is...a tropical island. But Faraday...he's looking at it from a physicist's perspective...and is trained to see light refraction and any imperfections that the untrained eye might not pick up.

It totally reminded me of Neo seeing the cat walk past twice in "The Matrix"....I think this was Faraday's way of saying "There's a glitch in the Matrix".

Have we even seen a sunset? I honestly can't remember a scene with our losties staring at a sunset.
Well, you would think that if there were no sunsets on the island, the losties would have noticed, don't you think?;)

I agree that that line goes well with the Snowglobe theory. But for the losties everything inside such thing seems to be or act quite normal. They have never said something like, 'hey, look at the moon! It looks so weird. It seems like distorted or something!!! Even Sayid seems to be sure that they are close to the Equator because of the way the sun behaves.

But I am on board with the theory that the island is enclosed in a region of spacetime with a particular curvature. Personally, I would place the island in the throat of a Five Dimensional Black Hole.


Anyways, something that I also found odd... While Faraday could pick about that subtle detail about Light on the island, he didn't quite seem to have been expecting to make such a discovery. How come? Doesn't he know what the island is or WHERE it is? If it was inside a 'snowglobe' or distorted region of spacetime, wouldn't he have notice from the OUTSIDE????? Therefore, he would have expected Light to behave like that.

Fierro, I think that Farraday isn't as fully informed about why he is on the island and what he is doing there, compared to the other freighties. He may be there for one distinct reason and the rest is a secret to him. I wouldn't be surprised if they drugged him for the trip over, even (like when Juliet took the sub).

I really believe that the purpose of Daniel's line was twofold: First, noting that light behaves differently on the island, confirm either that there's something odd about the island's location within time/space or that there's something on the island that effects normal physics.

Second, I think Daniel is "sort of" a physicist because he has the ability to "see" EM fields and perhaps other physical phenomenon that most of us cannot see. The freighties were each chosen for a special reason: Miles can communicate with "spirits", CS Lewis had figured out something essential about DHARMA/the island (perhaps time-related), and Frank was "supposed to be on Flight 815". Having someone who can see or sense the way the island effects normal physics would be a real boon to such a team.

I'd even suggest that it's possible the reason Daniel was so freaked out by seeing the wreckage of Flight 815 on the ocean floor was that he sensed that something "wasn't right" about that plane being there -- that normal physics had been altered to allow that to happen.

We have been pondering how to explain the daytime changes, if they are at north pole.

One explanation is the sun and moon are artificially created, or at least the sun.

I believe during daytime sunlight is projected from a satellite orbiting the earth. When night time is approaching, the light is dimmed little by little, so the real moon shows up to the sky.Remember the artificial light in the SWAN. I know it's not the same thing exactly ... but could be on a much larger scale.

I think that line was just TPTB way of telling us "There's just something not quite right about this island"...told from a man who might know what to look for when observing his surroundings. The Losties accept the island for what it is...a tropical island. But Faraday...he's looking at it from a physicist's perspective...and is trained to see light refraction and any imperfections that the untrained eye might not pick up.

It totally reminded me of Neo seeing the cat walk past twice in "The Matrix"....I think this was Faraday's way of saying "There's a glitch in the Matrix".True but that glitch is in the Matrix and what is the Matrix but something man-made. ;)

Well, you would think that if there were no sunsets on the island, the losties would have noticed, don't you think?;)

I agree that that line goes well with the Snowglobe theory. But for the losties everything inside such thing seems to be or act quite normal. They have never said something like, 'hey, look at the moon! It looks so weird. It seems like distorted or something!!! Even Sayid seems to be sure that they are close to the Equator because of the way the sun behaves.

But I am on board with the theory that the island is enclosed in a region of spacetime with a particular curvature. Personally, I would place the island in the throat of a Five Dimensional Black Hole.

Anyways, something that I also found odd... While Faraday could pick about that subtle detail about Light on the island, he didn't quite seem to have been expecting to make such a discovery. How come? Doesn't he know what the island is or WHERE it is? If it was inside a 'snowglobe' or distorted region of spacetime, wouldn't he have notice from the OUTSIDE????? Therefore, he would have expected Light to behave like that.I think he knows as little as possible. He knows his mission is to get Ben and (probably) any survivors if there are any (which, of course, he found there were). Other than that ... I doubt he has any idea about the island or even where they *exactly.*

I really believe that the purpose of Daniel's line was twofold: First, noting that light behaves differently on the island, confirm either that there's something odd about the island's location within time/space or that there's something on the island that effects normal physics.

Second, I think Daniel is "sort of" a physicist because he has the ability to "see" EM fields and perhaps other physical phenomenon that most of us cannot see. The freighties were each chosen for a special reason: Miles can communicate with "spirits", CS Lewis had figured out something essential about DHARMA/the island (perhaps time-related), and Frank was "supposed to be on Flight 815". Having someone who can see or sense the way the island effects normal physics would be a real boon to such a team.

I'd even suggest that it's possible the reason Daniel was so freaked out by seeing the wreckage of Flight 815 on the ocean floor was that he sensed that something "wasn't right" about that plane being there -- that normal physics had been altered to allow that to happen.YES! YES! YES! That's what I meant in my post way, way back in this thread about it being a clue, too, as to how he could notice the light difference with no instrument. I seriously believe that each person was hand-picked for what they will bring to the island.

I started a thread earlier but I think it's been pushed back to page 3 or so about a famous physicist named Faraday and his contributions to electromagnetics and electrochemistry. There is some stuff in the article about light rays as well but I don't understand all of it!! Here's another link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Faraday

OOh! First thing I noticed before I read any of it was that he was born on Sept 22nd!!! coinsedence???

Well, you would think that if there were no sunsets on the island, the losties would have noticed, don't you think?;)

I agree that that line goes well with the Snowglobe theory. But for the losties everything inside such thing seems to be or act quite normal. They have never said something like, 'hey, look at the moon! It looks so weird. It seems like distorted or something!!! Even Sayid seems to be sure that they are close to the Equator because of the way the sun behaves.

But I am on board with the theory that the island is enclosed in a region of spacetime with a particular curvature. Personally, I would place the island in the throat of a Five Dimensional Black Hole.


Anyways, something that I also found odd... While Faraday could pick about that subtle detail about Light on the island, he didn't quite seem to have been expecting to make such a discovery. How come? Doesn't he know what the island is or WHERE it is? If it was inside a 'snowglobe' or distorted region of spacetime, wouldn't he have notice from the OUTSIDE????? Therefore, he would have expected Light to behave like that.

lol....Fierro, I had the same thoughts....following from a post I made yesterday.

I've been tossing this idea around......

Given Dan's talents of being able to detect the light scatter, I wonder if he could also see some sort of anomaly on the TV screen during the news cast. Maybe he just couldn't describe what he could see.....something really frightening. (This, of course, is based on the Christiane I (sp?) news film was actually a shot near the location of our invisible island.)

Somewhat similar to what Richard Malkin told Claire...... something "blurry". It's as though Malkin couldn't describe what he saw but he knew it was really, really bad. (Yeah, I think he was a real psychic. :smile: )
http://thefuselage.com/Threaded/showpost.php?p=1755199&postcount=78
I know this is nitpicky but.....Dan said the light scatters "out here". If it were a snow
globe wouldn't he have said something more like "in here"?

Second, I think Daniel is "sort of" a physicist because he has the ability to "see" EM fields and perhaps other physical phenomenon that most of us cannot see. The freighties were each chosen for a special reason: Miles can communicate with "spirits", CS Lewis had figured out something essential about DHARMA/the island (perhaps time-related), and Frank was "supposed to be on Flight 815". Having someone who can see or sense the way the island effects normal physics would be a real boon to such a team.

Totally agree with you here, Tramp.

I know this is nitpicky but.....Dan said the light scatters "out here". If it were a snow
globe wouldn't he have said something more like "in here"?



Only if he knew that he was in said snowglobe.

Only if he knew that he was in said snowglobe.

True....very true. I'm done nitpicking. :biggrin:

Basically he discovered that light can be affected by electromagnetic fields and when it passes through this field it refracts slightly. This refraction of the light causes it to scatter slightly differently than natural sunlight would.

What I think this means is that it confirms our Losties are in a snowglobe type thing which is actually a magnetic field type thing (possibly magnetic force field, thats why all the planes and helicopters instruments go crazy when they pass through it)

A magnetic field cannot itself affect light. The Faraday Effect shows how the polarity of light can be changed by a magnetic field, but only as it is passing through a solid dielectric object, like a piece of glass.

I really believe that the purpose of Daniel's line was twofold: First, noting that light behaves differently on the island, confirm either that there's something odd about the island's location within time/space or that there's something on the island that effects normal physics.

Second, I think Daniel is "sort of" a physicist because he has the ability to "see" EM fields and perhaps other physical phenomenon that most of us cannot see. The freighties were each chosen for a special reason: Miles can communicate with "spirits", CS Lewis had figured out something essential about DHARMA/the island (perhaps time-related), and Frank was "supposed to be on Flight 815". Having someone who can see or sense the way the island effects normal physics would be a real boon to such a team.

I'd even suggest that it's possible the reason Daniel was so freaked out by seeing the wreckage of Flight 815 on the ocean floor was that he sensed that something "wasn't right" about that plane being there -- that normal physics had been altered to allow that to happen.
Well, yeah! You don't need to be a physicist to know that it is kind of impossible for a plane that crashed in the Pacific to be found in the Indian Ocean!!!!!

I don't think electormagnetic effects would change the light. I think the line was telling us he has some sort of special power.

I think it was definitely an allusion to the unique physics of the island. It isn't a "special power", because he said, "The light... it's strange out here isn't it?" indicating that it's something he would expect others to notice as well.

I think the more important part is to note that he doesn't want to "pigeonhole" himself as a physicist. He actually has a broader background than just physics it seems. Most anyone who had worked their butt off to be an actual physicist would have no problem with the label. He may not be a physicist but just have an inate understanding of physical phenomena.

[/b] Well, yeah! You don't need to be a physicist to know that it is kind of impossible for a plane that crashed in the Pacific to be found in the Indian Ocean!!!!!But did it? We have been going on the assumption that the plane went East. If the plane had gone West it would have crashed in the sea right where they found the wreckage. Now the questions are: did the pilot know he was flying West and not East? Did he head East and enter a *portal* that spat him out West of Australia? Find815.com set up the premise that the plane was by the Sundra Trench ... West of Australia and that's where they found it on the show. But I think we've assumed they're in the Pacific (and Desmond's comments about reaching Fiji only added to it). I think we have to revist that. It looks more and more like they are not in the Pacific at all.

I know this is nitpicky but.....Dan said the light scatters "out here". If it were a snow
globe wouldn't he have said something more like "in here"?

Perhaps he's being careful not to give anything away, though I suspect he has as little knowkdge about the island's genuine location as our intrepid survivors.

M

Not only does he comment about the light, but even before that when he walks around he is constantly looking around in amazement. Just like dropping into something totally new.

But did it? We have been going on the assumption that the plane went East. If the plane had gone West it would have crashed in the sea right where they found the wreckage. Now the questions are: did the pilot know he was flying West and not East? Did he head East and enter a *portal* that spat him out West of Australia? Find815.com set up the premise that the plane was by the Sundra Trench ... West of Australia and that's where they found it on the show. But I think we've assumed they're in the Pacific (and Desmond's comments about reaching Fiji only added to it). I think we have to revist that. It looks more and more like they are not in the Pacific at all.

I believe that the island will end up being nor in the Pacific or the Indian. But in a place in between. If there are spacetime curvatures involved, the island could be even viewed as not being on Earth, technically, most of all if 'portals' are involved.

Now, I have personally thought about the plane flying West, but it is really HARD to believe unless the pilot was on it. And like many people have pointed out, some passengers might have noticed that they were flying over Australia.
Now, the lie that the masterminds are gonna tell in order to explain why they found the plane in the wrong place, HAS to be something like that: the plane flew West, for some unknown reason.
Besides Desmond, Danielle also confirmed the location of the island near Tahiti, which is in the Pacific.
But, of course,, we know that there is something very fishy about her story. She might hold the clue to several mysteries of the show.

Anyways, I think that there has been several hints by some losties that the island might be close to the Equator. Curiously both 'crash' sites are somewhere near it.

Edit: I wonder if the 'Where are we' question is gonna be asked to some of the freighter people?