It is assumed the rocket was being measured by off-Island time, and Dan was keeping a measure of on-Isalnd time.
This is the nagging point for me. Daniel brought the clock in with him, meaning it was already out of synch with island time.
Therefore, by comparison of the two clocks, more time passed off Island than on Island in the time between launch and landingI'm confused by your logic that more time had passed off-island than on.
The heart of the issue is "time passage", and since we haven't seen the event from the perspective of the ship, how do you know?
That does not indicate, however, that it took 31 minutes for the rocket to get there. I believe this detail is still debatable. Right on. The simple approach is that the rocket trip took 19 seconds, and there's a solid 3-minute loss of time at the instant someone or something arrives on the island.
The wrinkle is - we listened to Regina do the km count. That count - as a ratio of the 3 minutes - should have been warped enough that someone as sensitve as Daniel should have picked up on it. That's a minor nitpick, though.

Nothing time traveled, 31 minutes was lost during a set period of (longer) time. I agree, because there's a spatial element involved. The common view of time travel (based upon popular fiction) is that a traveller stands in one spot and is transported to a different 'time' but stays in that spot. That's nowhere near what's happening here. Persons must move in space as well as time. They then share a 'present' and communicate with others who are living in an 'future', off-island. Presumably this is made possible by some property and/or technology of the Looking Glass.

One very practical application is that it would allow persons to conspire to arrange automobile and bus crashes. One person at the planned crash site, with a camera and sat-phone, another back at the Flame, directing the action... i.e., telling the vehicle driver exactly when and where the target will step into the street.

Not if they came in on the bearing where time is equal.

There is no way they could shoot that low-tech rocket so that it came in at a precise bearing. It was making a straight line from their freighter to the beacon, thus passing into the Island's territory through another bearing cause a time difference.

Think of the area around the Island being surrounded by a huge circle that represents a clock. Depending on what point you come in at through that clock, there will be an increased or decreased time difference. Hit the right spot on that clock and time is equal.

This is the nagging point for me. Daniel brought the clock in with him, meaning it was already out of synch with island time.

Hanover >
Think of the area around the Island being surrounded by a huge circle that represents a clock. Depending on what point you come in at through that clock, there will be an increased or decreased time difference. Hit the right spot on that clock and time is equal.


Exactly, and that angle is 325º.

Think of the area around the Island being surrounded by a huge circle that represents a clock. Depending on what point you come in at through that clock, there will be an increased or decreased time difference. Hit the right spot on that clock and time is equal. That's a purely fictional construct, so opens the door to any other fictional construct. That said, I like it a lot!
edit to add: The Dharma Octagon has 1080 degrees (contrasted to a circular clock, based upon 360 degrees). I've long and loudly wondered it there's something to that..

100%
Exactly, and that angle is 325º.
The submarine seemed kind of low-tech to be able to hit a precise bearing or angle.

On the other hand, I've always though Juliet began to lose time upon arriving, a key point of my "Time runs 1-2% slower" theory, which I've just revived on GT to include info gleaned from The Economist.

losmio,
Personally, I think the sub was just a façade.

losmio,
Personally, I think the sub was just a façade.I've always thought it was used for the very last leg of the journey. We know now that 80km is outside the island's field, which verifies one can get that close via regular transport... but must take great care after that.

And I can't say this enough: we now know that travel through space is a critical element. The island doesn't exist in some nether-time world, it exists in time/space.

Unfotuantly I only took one physics class in college, and it wasn't quantom physics...LOL.

But if we are talking about the space tiime continuim, when you get closer to the object that is bending time, don't you get sucked in by it's gravitational pull?

Why is it that then that anyone approaching or leaving the island has to follow a specific bearing as to suggest a portal to the island?

What happens if you approach the island from a different bearing? It seems that you pass right over it or through it as if it does not exist.

That would contradict Desmond setting sail and being dragged back to the island. That would make sense since he is being pulled back in by the anomoly's gravitational pull.

What is the part of the equation that I am missing? You would think that anything that approaches the island gets sucked in, but it seems to be the opposite as if the island doesnt exist unless you come through the opening/portal.

losmio,
Personally, I think the sub was just a façade.

I thought that too when I saw Juliet being brought to the Island - looked awfully staged - but we also saw the sub used to deliver the DHARMA personnel back in the days when they were active on the island.

It also seems that the other Others believed that it was a valid way on and off the Island .. unless Ben was lying about that too (perfectly possible).


Maybe there are a number of 'portals' or weak points in the EM barrier surrounding the Island and one of them happens to be underwater. If you come in at a certain depth and home in on the sonar beacon (which we have been told was operating to guide the sub in) then you pass through one of these weak points? Perhaps Daniel had calculated the altitude/bearing for the chopper to approach on in order to take advantage of another portal type point?

Think of the EM barrier like a reef. I'm sure I remember reading a 'desert island' type story when I was a kid which had an island surrounded by a fierce reef which had a secret path through it, which you could find by lining up with a marker on the shore (like a certain tree or painted rock). EM barrier - same sort of idea...

I thought that too when I saw Juliet being brought to the Island - looked awfully staged - but we also saw the sub used to deliver the DHARMA personnel back in the days when they were active on the island.

It also seems that the other Others believed that it was a valid way on and off the Island .. unless Ben was lying about that too (perfectly possible).


Maybe there are a number of 'portals' or weak points in the EM barrier surrounding the Island and one of them happens to be underwater. If you come in at a certain depth and home in on the sonar beacon (which we have been told was operating to guide the sub in) then you pass through one of these weak points? Perhaps Daniel had calculated the altitude/bearing for the chopper to approach on in order to take advantage of another portal type point?

Think of the EM barrier like a reef. I'm sure I remember reading a 'desert island' type story when I was a kid which had an island surrounded by a fierce reef which had a secret path through it, which you could find by lining up with a marker on the shore (like a certain tree or painted rock). EM barrier - same sort of idea...

LOL... did you play FIND 815?;)

Can we all decide to quit with the Walt comments in this time discussion?

When Walt appears to Locke he is older. Did the producers manipulate his appearance to make some comment about the space/time continuum around the island? Of course not. The kid who plays Walt was in the middle of puberty and 18 months passed between the time the actor left the show and the time the actor came back to the show to play the part. Walt's age difference is not sci-fi coolness it's just plain puberty.

Can we all decide to quit with the Walt comments in this time discussion?

When Walt appears to Locke he is older. Did the producers manipulate his appearance to make some comment about the space/time continuum around the island? Of course not. The kid who plays Walt was in the middle of puberty and 18 months passed between the time the actor left the show and the time the actor came back to the show to play the part. Walt's age difference is not sci-fi coolness it's just plain puberty.

I'm pretty sure I read the TPTB said some way back that Walt's obvious ageing over the course of the series being filmed was going to be explained in terms of the show.

They cast a young kid for a recurring role in a show they knew was going to span several years so they must have known what they were doing from the start and that this ageing would not need to be glossed over, disguised or ignored. My money is on a valid reason for Walt's character being actually noticeably older in the show and it's going to be a direct result of the wierd-science of the Island.

This is the nagging point for me. Daniel brought the clock in with him, meaning it was already out of synch with island time.And it's a bit baffling they didn't have a "synchronize our watches" moment before the launch. Assuming the readouts were clocks and not timers, that is.

When Walt appears to Locke he is older. Did the producers manipulate his appearance to make some comment about the space/time continuum around the island? Of course not. The kid who plays Walt was in the middle of puberty and 18 months passed between the time the actor left the show and the time the actor came back to the show to play the part. Walt's age difference is not sci-fi coolness it's just plain puberty.Except they had Locke specifically mention the difference in height. It may be a production reality that the actor is older, but the fact it was referenced on the show makes now makes it a relevant plot point.

Can we all decide to quit with the Walt comments in this time discussion?

When Walt appears to Locke he is older. Did the producers manipulate his appearance to make some comment about the space/time continuum around the island? Of course not. The kid who plays Walt was in the middle of puberty and 18 months passed between the time the actor left the show and the time the actor came back to the show to play the part. Walt's age difference is not sci-fi coolness it's just plain puberty.
WRONG.
100%
Can we all decide to quit with the Walt comments in this time discussion?

When Walt appears to Locke he is older. Did the producers manipulate his appearance to make some comment about the space/time continuum around the island? Of course not. The kid who plays Walt was in the middle of puberty and 18 months passed between the time the actor left the show and the time the actor came back to the show to play the part. Walt's age difference is not sci-fi coolness it's just plain puberty.
WRONG. There is a reason why Locke noticed the height difference. If they are planning on using Walt's actor again, they are gonna have to come up with an excuse to explain why he looks 4 years older when it has only passed 3 months on the island.
There is also a very known comment from TPTB saying that they knew all along the problems they were gonna have with Malcom's growth and they had planned a fix for it.
So, get ready for the inevitable connection.;)

I don't know if anyone's posted this yet but the rocket experiment doesn't necessarily mean that time has a different rate of speed on the island than the outside world it could in fact mean that depending on the vector you take to get to the island takes a different amount of time than it should.

This is the nagging point for me. Daniel brought the clock in with him, meaning it was already out of synch with island time.
I'm confused by your logic that more time had passed off-island than on.
The heart of the issue is "time passage", and since we haven't seen the event from the perspective of the ship, how do you know?
Right on. The simple approach is that the rocket trip took 19 seconds, and there's a solid 3-minute loss of time at the instant someone or something arrives on the island.
The wrinkle is - we listened to Regina do the km count. That count - as a ratio of the 3 minutes - should have been warped enough that someone as sensitve as Daniel should have picked up on it. That's a minor nitpick, though.

It all depends on whether it was:

(1) a clock
(2) a timer zeroed prior to the point of entry on the Island or
(3) a timer zeroed at the point of firing the rocket.

(1) and (2) are roughly similar in concept. In this case, a different rate of the passage of time is implied. Over however long the period of time that Daniel & Co have been on the Island, 31 minutes less has passed on the Island as compared to the outside world.

(It could also imply a simple discontinuity that differs depending on the angle or point at which you go through the EM barrier around the Island, another theory put forward)

Can someone explain something? The island is 31 minutes or so off from the real world. Its basically 31 minutes in the past. So why is everyone claiming anything that happened on island would have been ages ago? Like people saying Adam and Ave would of died sooner due to the time change.
To me, its just 31 minutes back in time. Time changes same as normal, its just always 31 minutes behind.

Can someone explain something? The island is 31 minutes or so off from the real world. Its basically 31 minutes in the past. So why is everyone claiming anything that happened on island would have been ages ago? Like people saying Adam and Ave would of died sooner due to the time change.
To me, its just 31 minutes back in time. Time changes same as normal, its just always 31 minutes behind.

Some people have theorised that there is a 31 minute discontinuity affecting anything coming onto the Island. Others have speculated on a variable discontinuity depending on how you come through the barrier around the Island.

Others speculate that time is running at a different rate on the Island - 'Slow Time'. I'm leaning towards that.

Until we get another experiment from Daniel it's hard to say which is going to be the real deal.

Here's what I don't understand...let's say that the "payload" should have taken about one minute to get from ship to island. (It seemed about one minute as the kilometers were being counted down)

Then the payload arrives about 31 minutes later. That's more than a 31 minute per day difference right?

That would seem to me that it took 30 more minutes to get there than it should have taken.

This time stuff is warping my mind...it is February of 2008 right now...right?:confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

I searched for Damon and Carlton's comment about Walt. All I have so far is this, which is from an Ask Ausiello spoiler column of 5/3/06:

Lindelof (http://www.lostpedia.com/wiki/Lindelof) and Cuse (http://www.lostpedia.com/wiki/Cuse): "the growth of Malcolm David Kelly (http://www.lostpedia.com/wiki/Malcolm_David_Kelly) (Walt (http://www.lostpedia.com/wiki/Walt)) will be addressed"Sorry about the extraneous links - I got the quote from lostpedia.

Oh, and this too! From the SciFi Wire 10/1/07:
(http://www.lostpedia.com/wiki/Damon_Lindelof)Damon Lindelof (http://www.lostpedia.com/wiki/Damon_Lindelof): "We've always known Malcolm was going to grow faster than we could shoot the show. And we planned for it. Trust us. Please trust us."

Also, since I always love to research comments by TPTB, I wanted to address this:
Carlton Cuse: What we have said and will continue to say is that we will not end the show with a cheat. It will not all have taken place in a snowglobe, it will not all have been a dream.
Lost in CA, I think you are mixing up two uses of the term "snowglobe." What people are talking about in this thread is a physics term.... What Carlton was talking about is a reference to the ending of St. Elsewhere, in which the last scene of the show revealed that the entire series had taken place in the mind of an autistic child looking at a snowglobe. THAT's what he's saying won't happen, thank goodness!
http://www.tvacres.com/signoffs_finales_elsewhere.htm

jennylee,27 >
Sorry about the extraneous links - I got the quote from lostpedia.


You probably know this already, but a quick way to get rid of links like that is to Paste the text in NotePad and then Copy it from there. That's what I do when I want to edit a text from the Internet in Word, for example, but don't want the hyperlinks.

Can someone explain how the implosion of the swan with it's giant magnetic nature did not affect the island. How can you state with a fact that it is physics and relativity when a magnet that can pull a plane out of the sky blew up. How can you trust any electrical equipment passing on/off the island?

I'm confused by your logic that more time had passed off-island than on.
The heart of the issue is "time passage", and since we haven't seen the event from the perspective of the ship, how do you know?

This is based on the fact that Daniel and Regina, or just Daniel, had to somehow, at some point, in some manner, sync the two clocks. We don't know the exact result of that expereiment, in such that we can not confirm a specific or constant ratio of dilation, but Daniel does, hence his reaction.

However, we saw that the "off-Island" is ahead of Daniel's "on-Island" clock, which I agree has gone through some sort of distortion as well, unless Daniel recalibrated before we saw him run the experiment. At any rate, it is safe to assume, and I am sure it is all that can be confirmed, that more time passed off-Island than on, by the clocks and Daniel's reaction to them. If there was a chance that the two clocks were way off before the experiment, Daniel's reaction doesn't make sense, and he probably wouldn't be there. It would be very unscientific to fire (an expensive) rocket to test for a time difference, and not have set the clocks before the experiment. See my point?

This is my logic.

Not if they came in on the bearing where time is equal.

There is no way they could shoot that low-tech rocket so that it came in at a precise bearing. It was making a straight line from their freighter to the beacon, thus passing into the Island's territory through another bearing cause a time difference.

Think of the area around the Island being surrounded by a huge circle that represents a clock. Depending on what point you come in at through that clock, there will be an increased or decreased time difference. Hit the right spot on that clock and time is equal.

Where has it been confirmed that there is an "equal-time" passage? Is this assumed because of Daniel telling Frank to follow the same path out that they came in on?

This has been discussed in this thread regarding the scenes with Desmond's (boat) having gone in circles then coming back to the Island, and Michael and Walt, who followed a specific bearing, and we have not seen their boat come back to the Island ;)

Fierro, perhaps you want to post one more time. It's the portals, not different time-ways, IMHO. I don't buy into the different "time ways" off the Island. Frank said that the Chopper was low on gas, hence they couldn't carry much weight. Daniel's comment was the fruition of a quick calculation - the rocket was fired on a specific bearing and took (too long) to get there. Daniel knows there is not enough gas for Frank to "take too long" finding the exit portal. I further presume that the rocket was not necessarily fired on the same bearing that the helicopter came in on. Does this work with the portal theory Fierro? Easier to get "in" the globe than "out"?

Hmmm Could these bearings refer to LIGHT CONES (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light_cone)?
Quote:
When discussing the evolution of a system in general relativity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_relativity), or more specifically Minkowski space (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minkowski_space), physicists often refer to a " light cone (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light_cone)". A light cone represents any possible future evolution of an object given its current state, or every possible location given its current location. An object's possible future locations are limited by the speed that the object can move, which is at best the speed of light (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_of_light). For instance, an object located at position p at time t0 can only move to locations within c(t1 − t0) in time t1.
This is commonly represented on a graph with physical locations along the horizontal axis and time running vertically, with units of t for time and ct for space. Light cones in this representation appear as lines at 45 degrees centered on the object, as light travels at ct per t. On such a diagram, every possible future location of the object lies within the cone. Additionally, every space location has a future time, implying that an object may stay at any location in space indefinitely.
Any single point on such a diagram is known as an event. Separate events are considered to be timelike if they are separated across the time axis, or spacelike if they differ along the space axis. If the object were in free fall (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_fall) it would travel up the t axis, if it accelerates it moves across the x axis as well. The actual path an object takes through spacetime, as opposed to the ones it could take, is known as the worldline (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_line). Another definition is that the light cone represents all possible worldlines.
In "simple" examples of spacetime metrics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metric_tensor_%28general_relativity%29) the light cone is directed forward in time. This corresponds to the common case that an object cannot be in two places at once, or alternately that it cannot move instantly to another location. In these spacetimes, the worldlines of physical objects are, by definition, timelike. However this orientation is only true of "locally flat" spacetimes. In curved spacetimes the light cone will be "tilted" along the spacetime's geodesic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geodesic). For instance, while moving in the vicinity of a star, the star's gravity will "pull" on the object, affecting its worldline, so its possible future positions lie closer to the star. This appears as a slightly tilted lightcone on the corresponding spacetime diagram. An object in free fall in this circumstance continues to move along its local t axis, but to an external observer it appears it is accelerating in space as well – a common situation if the object is in orbit, for instance.
In extreme examples, in spacetimes with suitably high-curvature metrics, the light cone can be tilted beyond 45 degrees. That means there are potential "future" positions, from the object's frame of reference, that are spacelike separated to observers in an external rest frame (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rest_frame). From this outside viewpoint, the object can move instantaneously through space. In these situations the object would have to move, since its present spacial location would not be in its own future light cone. Additionally, with enough of a tilt, there are event locations that lie in the "past" as seen from the outside. With a suitable movement of what appears to it its own space axis, the object appears to travel though time as seen externally.
A closed timelike curve can be created if a series of such light cones are set up so as to loop back on themselves, so it would be possible for an object to move around this loop and return to the same place and time that it started. An object in such an orbit would repeatedly return to the same point in spacetime if it stays in free fall. Returning to the original spacetime location would be only one possibility; the object's future light cone would include spacetime points both forwards and backwards in time, and so it should be possible for the object to engage in time travel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_travel) under these conditions.


Am I the only one gobsmacked at this, or has the Minkowski Space/Light Cones/ the Minkowski on the Freighter link already been discussed elsewhere.

This is just a massive clue, with the name? It's lightcones and Minkowski Space?
100%
ps. The time-dilation effect, reminds me of one of my fave Queen songs, which was about said subject, "'39".

A man sails off into the blue (you soon realise he was a spaceman) comes back with his crew to find 100 years have passed on Earth, in his 1 year away... :)

Interesting reading: ;) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%2739

A closed timelike curve can be created if a series of such light cones are set up so as to loop back on themselves, so it would be possible for an object to move around this loop and return to the same place and time that it started. An object in such an orbit would repeatedly return to the same point in spacetime if it stays in free fall. Returning to the original spacetime location would be only one possibility; the object's future light cone would include spacetime points both forwards and backwards in time, and so it should be possible for the object to engage in time travel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_travel) under these conditions. This makes me think of how everything that left the island kept returning. The raft, Desmond's boat, and the message in a bottle.

I'm also reminded of something Narrator Ben said in A Tale of Survival, when speaking of the raft:

But they would find out it was not their time to leave the island...Very evocative.

Quote:
When discussing the evolution of a system in general relativity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_relativity), or more specifically Minkowski space (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minkowski_space), physicists often refer to a " light cone (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light_cone)".


Good post. "Simultaneity is relative." This does seem to be what the rocket is testing.

While the discussion of relativity and Einsteins theories is interesting, this show still has to be able to talk to average Joe viewer about what's going on. I don't think it's going to get that detailed and intricate beyond, "If you don't leave this island using this bearing, you wont end up back at the time you entered in.." or something along those lines.

Fierro, perhaps you want to post one more time. It's the portals, not different time-ways, IMHO. I don't buy into the different "time ways" off the Island. Frank said that the Chopper was low on gas, hence they couldn't carry much weight. Daniel's comment was the fruition of a quick calculation - the rocket was fired on a specific bearing and took (too long) to get there. Daniel knows there is not enough gas for Frank to "take too long" finding the exit portal. I further presume that the rocket was not necessarily fired on the same bearing that the helicopter came in on. Does this work with the portal theory Fierro? Easier to get "in" the globe than "out"?

Hey, golf_fan!!!! I have to admit that I have been forced to make a big change in my Portal Theory: after Daniel's comment about using the same bearing to leave that they used to come to the island, the 1-in, 1-out is most definetely wrong. They CAN use the same 'portal' to get in or out of the snowglobe. So the portals are 2-way after all.
Anyways, it would be interesting to know WHAT bearing the team came from and what bearing they are heading for to leave. Is it 325 or 145?;)
The other part of my theory that states the existance of only 2 portals, each one around the magnetic poles of the snowglobe, could still be correct.
Now back to Daniel's warning to Frank about using that precise bearing...

I am really leaning towards an explanation where LIGHT CONES (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light_cone) are involved. These things, in special relativity, represent ALL the possible locations in space and time (past and future) that an event can take place at. And, of course, they are limited by the speed of light.

Now, here is where the cool part comes in....
In a normal FLAT space, these cones are PARALLEL to each other. But in a CURVED space, like the one some of us propose that the island is in, these light cones are tilted in such a way that they are not parallel to each other anymore, they can overlap each other!!!!
If you think that is cool, wait to here the next part:

If the local spacetime presents a curvature big enough, the light cones could be tilted in such a way that they can LOOP BACK ON THEMSELVES. That means that the worldline (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worldline) (that is the PATH that an object can travel in spaceTIME) inside such a cone can, theoretically, close in on itself, creating a CIRCLE.
This creates what it's called a CLOSED TIMELIKE CURVE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Closed_timelike_curve), which is, oh! surprise, a possible scientific way to make Time Travel possible.

I believe that, for some reason, if you take the wrong path/bearing, you would end up being caught in one of these closed loops.
And this could be very bad because, one of the side effects of such CTC is the breakdown of the Cause and Effect concept.

Effects may be able to cause themselves without any apparent cause to trigger them!!!


A CTC therefore results in a Cauchy horizon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cauchy_horizon), and a region of spacetime that cannot be predicted from perfect knowledge of some past timeCuriously enough, this Horizon, on which one side contains closed space-like (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space-like) geodesics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geodesic) and the other side contains closed time-like (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time-like) geodesics, is usually very unstable, making CTC not very 'common'. BUT there is one particular case in which a Cauchy Horizon could exist in a stable form...

In the presence of the CASIMIR FORCE.;)





http://books.google.com/books?id=Hos31wty5WIC&pg=PA218&lpg=PA218&dq=+light+cones+on+curved+space&source=web&ots=VeEQK8dfG_&sig=P63bkOC2T_yX-xWAP4B2q5Fsnvw#PPA219,M1
100%
Good post. "Simultaneity is relative." This does seem to be what the rocket is testing.
EXACTLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


http://everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=1166505
100%
A couple of cool links:


Glossary of relativistic terms:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/time/timespeak.html

These 3 are particularly relevant to Faraday's Rocket Experiment:


reference frame: A (possibly imaginary) laboratory for making physical measurements, which moves through the Universe in some particular manner.
Island Vs World

relative: Dependent on one's reference frame; different, as measured in one frame which moves through the Universe in one manner, than as measured in another frame which moves in another manner.
Daniel Vs Regina

simultaneity breakdown: The fact that events which are simultaneous as measured in one reference frame are not simultaneous as measured in another frame that moves relative to the first.
Perhaps the most important that explains Regina's perspective.

Related to the Swan's 'ancient' computer?
http://arxiv.org/abs/gr-qc/0209061

Just a careless thought, could the Swan's computer access to CTC have been checking the future to see if the numbers had changed?


Time Travel and CTC:
http://www.daviddarling.info/encyclopedia/G/Godel_universe.html



After thinking a while about the island having Closed Timelike Curves perhaps associated to different bearings, I wonder if Frank, Sayid and Desmond are gonna face some weird stuff on the way back to the freighter....
If, for some reason, they have to deviate from Daniel's bearing, perhaps they will end up in a CTC!!!! What if Desmond experiences something similar to FBYE?
I don't think they are gonna go the same way, that is timetravel back to the past. But what if he experiences the exact opposite? A conscious flashfoward to the future???
I mean we might think it is a regular FB, but it is later on revealed as being part of an 'interactive' FF, ala FBYE!!!!

Now, since Sayid just had his FF and Frank, his; only Desmond is left. And that would make a LOT of sense!!!!

Hey, golf_fan!!!! I have to admit that I have been forced to make a big change in my Portal Theory: after Daniel's comment about using the same bearing to leave that they used to come to the island, the 1-in, 1-out is most definetely wrong. They CAN use the same 'portal' to get in or out of the snowglobe. So the portals are 2-way after all.

Thanks, again, for your posts. Your theory is a beautiful thing :biggrin: I guess I hadn't let some of the possibilities fester in my mind based on your theory, things which I will keep to myself for fear of confusing the next reader, well mostly ;). (For example, does the possibility of time travel in the CTC mean the rocket "traveled time"? I really liked the layman explanation you gave about the Island being held in it's place, within the wormhole, by negative gravity, but the "stretching" effect, if you will, of the light waves is what makes time dilate? How does this translate into time travel? Would an object be required to cross into the CTC sections?)

I can't wait for the next installment of "CTCs and the Time Dilation Effect, AKA The Portal Theory"

In the presence of the CASIMIR FORCE.;)

This force was named and confirmed in the Orchid orientation video that we got as a mobisode - the evil twin rabbit vid, yes?

Just a careless thought, could the Swan's computer access to CTC have been checking the future to see if the numbers had changed?

Well, in the LE final vid, Hanso did say they were continuing to experiment with values in an attempt to change one or more of the values. I believe this is an intriguing question. Since the VE marks the end of time, how could they know they'd changed a variable unless they could see into the future? Without the concrete proof, they could only hypothesize whethre or not they changed the equation's outcome - man's end date.

What makes me think "yes" was that snippet you posted about looking out of a black hole through the direct center and being able to see the "future" evolution/ expansion of the universe. I believe that source said one would see the birth and evolution of the Universe...

Thanks again Fierro :biggrin:

so off the island it isn't even X-mas yet and the Tsunami that hit the area hasn't happened yet (well in a round about way I had a prediction that came true, I thought that they would get off just before the Tsunami and looks like it might happen).

so off the island it isn't even X-mas yet and the Tsunami that hit the area hasn't happened yet (well in a round about way I had a prediction that came true, I thought that they would get off just before the Tsunami and looks like it might happen).
I've been saying for a very long time now that the Tsunami might come into play pretty soon. I even dared suggesting that it might have been a direct consequence of the Swan's implosion....

I've been saying for a very long time now that the Tsunami might come into play pretty soon. I even dared suggesting that it might have been a direct consequence of the Swan's implosion....

Given that the real world Tsunami killed hundreds of thousands of people that would be in very poor taste, IMO.

Given that the real world Tsunami killed hundreds of thousands of people that would be in very poor taste, IMO.

I know. It might hurt people's feelings. But this is just a tv show that we know didn't kill anybody. I think people should be mature enough to notice the difference.
But, yeah. It is a touchy subject.

they've also made allusions to 9/11 and showed the Twin Towers a few times, so I'm not sure the tsunami is out of bounds. Freighter getting washed onto the island?

they've also made allusions to 9/11 and showed the Twin Towers a few times, so I'm not sure the tsunami is out of bounds. Freighter getting washed onto the island?

Showing or referring to the effects of the Tsunami in the fictional world of Lost is one thing, using a disaster that killed over 300,000 people and left many more hundreds of thousands of people homeless to further the plot (ie. Hey! It was caused by the Swan station imploding. Whooa, that's cool!) is nothing short of crass and offensive.

All IMO of course, some might think that making light of a tragedy of immense human proportions to further our TV entertainment is perfectly all right.

Somehow I doubt that the network and producers will be on the side of the latter body of opinion.

i seriously do not think tptb would use the swan implosion to explain a real world disaster....

I found this but see Fierro is all over it....lol

Minkowski space (or Minkowski spacetime) is the mathematical setting in which Einstein's theory of special relativity is most conveniently formulated. In this setting the three ordinary dimensions of space are combined with a single dimension of time to form a four-dimensional manifold for representing a spacetime. Minkowski space is named after the German mathematician Hermann Minkowski.

The use of the tsunami as something that merely has an effect on the island could be handled tastefully, though I agree that to say that the island somehow caused it would bring lots of objection.

The effect it could have on the island is interesting though. If we merely have a half-hour time shift after crossing some boundary between the boat and the island, then the island folks may have a half-hour warning of what's coming.

Out at sea, the effects of a tsunami are minimal; it's when the wave gets to shallow water that it's severe, so the boat may see minimal effects.

Of most interest; often before a tsunami comes in, the tide goes way way waaaaay out all of a sudden, far beyond the normal low-tide position. So I wonder what, besides the looking glass station, may be revealed if/when the water recedes. Also, I wonder whether the wrecked looking glass station (or other yet, unrevealed items -- a submarine perhaps?) may wash up on the beach when the wave comes in...

You all may want to take a listen to the new official podcast with Damon and Carlton, just out today. They reference Daniel's experiment and give a bit of an explanation of what he found. It could be helpful. The episode is minorly spoilerish for this week's episode (title and centric). Enjoy!

ahhhhh...I miss the podcasts....I cant wait to hear it

They didn't enlighten us much more on this issue, actually, but it's nice that they talked about it.

I don't know where these podcasts are...the Lage, ABC, or somewhere else?

I try not to listen to spoilerish info but since I am already totally spoiled about this week's epi, I would love to listen to this.

This week is gonna be good!

abc.com LLenny

Or iTunes, which gives you the option of saving it forever!

Oh, stop teasing Lenny and just give him the link :biggrin:

http://abc.go.com/primetime/lost/index?pn=podcast#t=3421

http://ll.media.abc.com/podcast/audio/abc/LOST_404_audio_podcast.mp3 - mp3 version

http://thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=30485&page=67 - Podcast thread

You can right click on the episode link on the ABC and an choose "Save Target As" and save it where you want it on your computer, LLenny. Jenny's right about ITunes as well.
I loved the podcast! They truly seemed to be thrilled to be podcasting again.

SamG, Thank you! I was going to do that and forgot. :redface:

Thanks everyone...just listened to the Darlton podcast and that was very cool. Pretty much shoots the "there's no time diff" people out of the water huh? I also thought that their mention of how the polar bear "could have"...(as in DID) got to Tunisia was great too.

Not anything that hasn't been speculation on here before, but it's always nice to get some confirmation. Throwing us a bone on occasion.

Thanks everyone...just listened to the Darlton podcast and that was very cool. Pretty much shoots the "there's no time diff" people out of the water huh? I also thought that their mention of how the polar bear "could have"...(as in DID) got to Tunisia was great too.

Not anything that hasn't been speculation on here before, but it's always nice to get some confirmation. Throwing us a bone on occasion.

Yeah, the polar bear line was a nice bone. As well as the advice to read the Narnia Chronicles. I haven't read them, but my knowledge of the movies - time moves differently between Narnia and the "Real World"... ;)

Oh, stop teasing Lenny and just give him the link :biggrin:
I know, I was exhausted and lazy last night. You can fire me. :)

Yeah, the polar bear line was a nice bone. As well as the advice to read the Narnia Chronicles. I haven't read them, but my knowledge of the movies - time moves differently between Narnia and the "Real World"... ;)
There's also an Adam and Eve like couple, a magic wardrobe and teleporting between worlds....

You can fire me. :)

I DO NOT second that motion ;)


There's also an Adam and Eve like couple, a magic wardrobe and teleporting between worlds....

Thanks for this. I'm not much of a reader, especially while in school. But, I have been meaning to watch the Lion, the Witch and The Wardrobe, and the trailer for Prince Caspian looks really good.

I have heard mention of the chronicles which includes the Golden Compass. Could you refresh my memory which series this is? I believe we were exposed to this possiblity through Find815.

Like I said, I'm not a reader, and with all the Chronicles series out now (LOTR, Harry Potter, Narnia, (The Golden Compass, PT 1 of the series, ...), I am utterly confused :biggrin"

:) The Golden Compass is part of the His Dark Materials trilogy, which I personally have not read. I don't remember the reference to it in Find815 though...

Polar bears
Norway

Just a few things "His Dark Materials" (The Golden Compass) have in common with LOST

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/His_Dark_Materials

:) The Golden Compass is part of the His Dark Materials trilogy, which I personally have not read. I don't remember the reference to it in Find815 though...

Sam G answered it for me, but I shouldn't have said referenced, I should have said connected to Lost by us geeky folk after we unraveled the Svalgard, Camp Whatever (Milo-something?), Easter Egg.
100%
Polar bears
Norway

Just a few things "His Dark Materials" (The Golden Compass) have in common with LOST

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/His_Dark_Materials

Should I have heard of Phillip Pullman? For some reason I was thinking Lewis did both "The Chronicles of Narnia" and "His Dark Materials" series.

Thanks for making me smarter you guys :biggrin:

Polar bears
Norway

Just a few things "His Dark Materials" (The Golden Compass) have in common with LOST

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/His_Dark_Materials
And the golden compass that Locke gave to Sayid (in S1/Hearts and Minds)...

His Dark Materials is a superb series of books. Highly recommended.

And I thought the movie wasn't bad either. They are also seeking a way to get into another world, besides other things.

Didnt Sayid's "date" tell the person on the phone that they had called 30 minutes late?

I believe it was in said German and the call was 30 minutes early.

Didnt Sayid's "date" tell the person on the phone that they had called 30 minutes late?

I believe it was in said German and the call was 30 minutes early.

I think you're right Sam G. MATP, I am gonna say GREAT catch, even if it is coincidence. But, seeing how we are led to believe Elsa is working for a nefarious faction associated with the Island, albeit perhaps only in a searching mode, this could be a clue towards who her boss was.

Slighly OT for this thread, but according to the show's dialogue, Elsa's boss is The Economist, not Ben, correct?

And I thought the movie wasn't bad either. It was pretty decent. They watered down the anti-Religion sentiments a tad too much but didn't remove them altogether which was admirable, I guess.

Apparently Mark Trail (http://www.flickr.com/photos/22318976@N08/2279664991/) has also discovered this time anomaly.

http://thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=89315 - I like this theory. A scientist wouldn't use a clock to time an experiment. So yes, there's 31 minute difference between the timers but it too the rocket 3 hours and 16 minutes to reach the island from 80 nautical miles off the coast.

I think you're right Sam G. MATP, I am gonna say GREAT catch, even if it is coincidence. But, seeing how we are led to believe Elsa is working for a nefarious faction associated with the Island, albeit perhaps only in a searching mode, this could be a clue towards who her boss was.

Slighly OT for this thread, but according to the show's dialogue, Elsa's boss is The Economist, not Ben, correct?

Why would Elsa's boss be Ben? Ben has Sayid working against her and The Economist for him!!??

Why would Elsa's boss be Ben? Ben has Sayid working against her and The Economist for him!!??

I have read some posters, in many threads, refer to Ben as the Economist. Just wanted to make sure I had it straight, Ben is not the Economist the title referred to.

I think Ben and the Economist are not working togther.

(from the last Darlton podcast)
Darlton said in their last podcast that Ben and Sayid are fighting the bad guys, in so many words. So, Ben is a good guy?

Everything we thought we knew...

Michael Emerson, in many of his interviews has said he has great hope for Ben turning out to be one of the good guys.

Michael Emerson, in many of his interviews has said he has great hope for Ben turning out to be one of the good guys.


Ben did say at the beginning that he was one of the good guys.

Ben did say at the beginning that he was one of the good guys.

Yeah, he did, didn't he. See, that is the problem with lying so much, no one knows when to believe you :cool:

Maybe Elsa's pager is old because of a time anomaly. Her boss may have to use an older pager to "fit in" wherever he's at...and maybe Elsa has to do that too.

(I keep killing threads...I post a response and the thread stops! let's see how I go with this one. 10 to 1 no one reads this and the thread dies)

Do you suppose that writers are playing with the idea of "Island time"? It is a time phenomena found on some islands of the Pacific such as Fiji, Tahiti and Tonga...it is even found to some extent on islands off Australia's coast... and it possibly exists on other tropical islands around the world.

Most of the world's time is governed by clocks, watches, calendars and timetables. We rely on these to do our day to day activities. But some of the above mentioned places operate on "Island time" and things might get done....but in a different sort of time-frame. Tourists experience a brief form of island time when the remove their watches and time-governing devices whilst on holiday in these locations. Days seem to blurr into each other and it is even difficult to remember exactly what day or time it is. Perhaps it isn't that there is an actual difference in time between the Lost island and the world...perhaps it is in the perception or reckoning of time.

(I keep killing threads...I post a response and the thread stops! let's see how I go with this one. 10 to 1 no one reads this and the thread dies)

Do you suppose that writers are playing with the idea of "Island time"? It is a time phenomena found on some islands of the Pacific such as Fiji, Tahiti and Tonga...it is even found to some extent on islands off Australia's coast... and it possibly exists on other tropical islands around the world.

Most of the world's time is governed by clocks, watches, calendars and timetables. We rely on these to do our day to day activities. But some of the above mentioned places operate on "Island time" and things might get done....but in a different sort of time-frame. Tourists experience a brief form of island time when the remove their watches and time-governing devices whilst on holiday in these locations. Days seem to blurr into each other and it is even difficult to remember exactly what day or time it is. Perhaps it isn't that there is an actual difference in time between the Lost island and the world...perhaps it is in the perception or reckoning of time.

I am posting just to break your streak of post killing!

Interesting idea about island time but I think there is more to it than that...Faraday's experiment proves to me that there is a difference in real time off and on island.

There are many other examples...Aaron's age for instance. I have a 22 mo old son and Aaron looks to be about 3 or 4 years old. He is 3 months old on island. Unless it took some 3 to 4 years for Kate to get her Oceanic settlement and find herself on trial for murder...I think it's safe to say something is up with time!

LLenny, I know there has been some debate about Aaron's age, but I personally think 3-4 years is too old an estimate. I have a 4 year old, and he is way more baby looking than her - his head is still much too disproportional for that, his eyes too big, etc. I'd put him in the 2 - 2 1/2 range myself.

(I keep killing threads...I post a response and the thread stops! let's see how I go with this one. 10 to 1 no one reads this and the thread dies)

Perhaps it isn't that there is an actual difference in time between the Lost island and the world...perhaps it is in the perception or reckoning of time.

I'll help your thread-killing streak end, too. ;)

I do think there is some sort of time shift as evidenced by Dan's payload experiment. However, Jack has made several comments about how long they've been there, pretty specific things like, "100 days" and "3 months since I've seen the Red Sox play." So, in his own way, he's keeping track of time. Now how that compares to the outside world yet, I don't know.

LLenny, I know there has been some debate about Aaron's age, but I personally think 3-4 years is too old an estimate. I have a 4 year old, and he is way more baby looking than her - his head is still much too disproportional for that, his eyes too big, etc. I'd put him in the 2 - 2 1/2 range myself.

Let's split the difference...and say 3!

My son is pretty big for 22 months and Aaron is way more advanced looking than that. You are right saying that 4 is probably too old but I think 3 is right on (give or take a few months)

That still is a long time for her to be given a trial for a murder case no? Assuming that it doesn't take another 1 or 2 years for them to be rescued, my guess is that he should be about 18 to 24 months at the time of the trial...

I too noticed Aaron's age. Being a paralegal it would have taken a year or more for Kate to finally get to trial, especially on a murder charge. She was obviously able to provide for Aaron before being served with an arrest warrent: she had time to establish a home, a nanny, and furnishings for Aaron. So, I doubt she was arrested right away, after coming back to the main land. When Kate's attorney asked for release on bail the Judge declined and Kate had to wait in jail until her trial. Since Aaron calls her, "Mommy" they established a relationship somewhere BEFORE her arrest.
Kate's mother said, "they have been giving me six months to live for the last four years" Am I wrong on this quote? If Kate has been gone for four years, that would make Aaron three years old at least. So Kate and Aaron will develope a relationship on Island for a year before getting rescued.. or on the boat? Remember Desmond said he had a vision of Claire and Aaron getting on a helicopter?
Comments?

(I keep killing threads...I post a response and the thread stops! let's see how I go with this one. 10 to 1 no one reads this and the thread dies)


As a former thread killer myself, I gotta say you picked a good thread to try your luck in. This one has been going strong for two weeks, and it is imn the Epi Forum. :biggrin:

LLenny, I know there has been some debate about Aaron's age, but I personally think 3-4 years is too old an estimate. I have a 4 year old, and he is way more baby looking than her - his head is still much too disproportional for that, his eyes too big, etc. I'd put him in the 2 - 2 1/2 range myself.

Hey Jenny, my son is 2 years 8 months. He is big for his age, and the other day when we were playing, he reminded me exactly of Aaron - my boys height, his head of hair, his language, everything. Aaron (is definitely) not 4. I could throw Lenny a bone and go with three.

I too noticed Aaron's age. Being a paralegal it would have taken a year or more for Kate to finally get to trial, especially on a murder charge. She was obviously able to provide for Aaron before being served with an arrest warrent: she had time to establish a home, a nanny, and furnishings for Aaron. So, I doubt she was arrested right away, after coming back to the main land. When Kate's attorney asked for release on bail the Judge declined and Kate had to wait in jail until her trial. Since Aaron calls her, "Mommy" they established a relationship somewhere BEFORE her arrest.
Kate's mother said, "they have been giving me six months to live for the last four years" Am I wrong on this quote? If Kate has been gone for four years, that would make Aaron three years old at least. So Kate and Aaron will develope a relationship on Island for a year before getting rescued.. or on the boat? Remember Desmond said he had a vision of Claire and Aaron getting on a helicopter?
Comments?

Ahhh, but too2strange makes a good point...if Kate's mom has been sick for 4 years and Kate being thought dead was the only thing (in her mind anyway) that kept her alive, wouldn't that put Aaron closer to 3 plus?

What if, instead of time passing slower on the island, time actually passes faster on
the island. That might explain why the young women have seemed to age so much
biologically and it would also explain why Aaron grew so much. What is taking place
over months on the island might take place in days in real time. I haven't thought about
what else does/doesn't match up. I'm just thinking aloud.

DVG: I believe it is in reverse. Time is slower on the Island and faster off. But I'm confused. And I have a bad cold so I'm not thinking straight today.

I am posting just to break your streak of post killing!

Thank you for stopping my post-killing spree....glad to know I am not a serial killer after all.

Interesting idea about island time but I think there is more to it than that...Faraday's experiment proves to me that there is a difference in real time off and on island.

I have been curious to find out how the Losties chart time on the Island...it's a thought that just occurred to me with this new season... have the Losties been using the usual clocks and watches and calendars? Or have they been using natural clocks like the sun and the moon? They seem to mark their days from the crash of Oceanic 815 rather than from a calendar.

There are many other examples...Aaron's age for instance. I have a 22 mo old son and Aaron looks to be about 3 or 4 years old. He is 3 months old on island. Unless it took some 3 to 4 years for Kate to get her Oceanic settlement and find herself on trial for murder...I think it's safe to say something is up with time!

I have only just taped this episode so I haven't seen it all yet, but I did catch the last minute or so with Kate and Aaron. Even given the TV convention of using babies that are older than their given age, Aaron on the Island would only be about 3 months old whereas the child Kate picks up says "Mama" and appears to be about 2 years old.

I have yet to watch the rest of the episode....so don't spoil it for me!

There are many characters that have watches on the island. Jack gave Hurley his watch to check on Claire's contractions in the pilot episode. Michael found one of Jin's watches and Jin gave it to Michael at the end of season one. I think the Losties are still running on conventional time, using clocks and watches. There are many characters that wear a watch.

A 33 page post which means absolutely nothing after tonight's episode. Awesome. I am glad no one EVER answered how you can relate all of this making sense AFTER THE GIANT MAGNETIC HATCH BLEW UP!

A 33 page post which means absolutely nothing after tonight's episode. Awesome. I am glad no one EVER answered how you can relate all of this making sense AFTER THE GIANT MAGNETIC HATCH BLEW UP!

Go to the Theories section and look for Fierro's 1-In, 1-Out Portal theory. This theory takes the (lack of) the Swan Hatch into account.

Is this what you meant by your comment? That none of us fans have included that in our theories? Many of us have - but, the concensus, for now, is that the Swan was keeping the time difference more in check, and now I think it may have been keeping all Island visitor's from turning into Brandons... So, lack of Swan means mroe obvious time diffs...

BTW, I am more convinced than ever that time is different on the Island. From "The Constant" - Daniel to Jack "Your perception of how long it is taking your friends to reach the freighter and how long it is actually taking them are not the same" and Sayid to Frank "We left the Island at dusk and when we reached the boat, it is the middle of the day. How can this be?"

Those are loose quotes, but the jist is intact. Did you miss these lines last night? Doesn't this confirm, again, that time is indeed different on the Island than off?

BTW, I am more convinced than ever that time is different on the Island. From "The Constant" - Daniel to Jack "Your perception of how long it is taking your friends to reach the freighter and how long it is actually taking them are not the same" and Sayid to Frank "We left the Island at dusk and when we reached the boat, it is the middle of the day. How can this be?"


Those quotes could also mean that travel to and from the island takes longer... not that there's a time difference (which we found wasn't the case... the calendars on the ship were correct, unless for some reason they were keeping track of island time, which I doubt).

Those quotes could also mean that travel to and from the island takes longer... not that there's a time difference (which we found wasn't the case... the calendars on the ship were correct, unless for some reason they were keeping track of island time, which I doubt).

One shown calender doesn't really lead us anywhere, does it? We'd need a calender, that Ben or Richard has been using on the Island to be able to begin to compare. Maybe WE are assuming it Dec 24, 2004 at the Losties Camp.

I know, I know - The Losties cycle of day and night, etc. but, I'm just saying, that calender is not guiding me so much as the clocks, Daniel's lines, and Darlton's podcasts (all I'm saying bout that).

AND, the calender on the wall in my home office, which is not at all affected by any known time shifts, says September 2007 ;) I kind of quit needing to flip it I guess, since I really don't look to that wall in my office... ;) (variables a plenty)

Besides, if we are going to compare, the calender is one contradiction to about 10 or so indicators that there is a time difference. If we are just going to weigh evdience, we have more supporting a time difference. Now, if we were politicians in the Fixed Time Party, sure, that Calender would be our Rosetta Stone, but I am personally non-partisan, no need to spin the evidence to support my platform. :biggrin:

One shown calender doesn't really lead us anywhere, does it? We'd need a calender, that Ben or Richard has been using on the Island to be able to begin to compare. Maybe WE are assuming it Dec 24, 2004 at the Losties Camp.

I know, I know - The Losties cycle of day and night, etc. but, I'm just saying, that calender is not guiding me so much as the clocks, Daniel's lines, and Darlton's podcasts (all I'm saying bout that).

AND, the calender on the wall in my home office, which is not at all affected by any known time shifts, says September 2007 ;) I kind of quit needing to flip it I guess, since I really don't look to that wall in my office... ;) (variables a plenty)

Besides, if we are going to compare, the calender is one contradiction to about 10 or so indicators that there is a time difference. If we are just going to weigh evdience, we have more supporting a time difference. Now, if we were politicians in the Fixed Time Party, sure, that Calender would be our Rosetta Stone, but I am personally non-partisan, no need to spin the evidence to support my platform. :biggrin:

If TPTB made the calendars a red herring, I'd be pretty mad. That's just lame. :D

And so it was coincidentally Christmas Eve at Penny's flat?

Nah... I don't think there's anything here. To paraphrase Darlton (paraphrasing Freud), sometimes a calendar is just a calendar.

If TPTB made the calendars a red herring, I'd be pretty mad. That's just lame. :D

And so it was coincidentally Christmas Eve at Penny's flat?

Nah... I don't think there's anything here. To paraphrase Darlton (paraphrasing Freud), sometimes a calendar is just a calendar.

Well, I do have to agree with you there :biggrin:.

However, isn't everyone pretty upset that the Losties didn't/ haven't celebrated Christmas on the Island? :rolleyes:

At any rate, I like best the thought you blew off - that the calender is marking Island days. But, now we need to know who's calender that is. :)

Another thing to consider:


How do we know the freighter is 'off island'?


It seems to be, but we can't be sure.

I think it's safe to assume that Penny, in London, CELEBRATING CHRISTMAS, RECIEVING THE LONG AWAITED PHONECALL ON DECEMBER 24, 2004 IS OFF THE ISLAND!!!!!!!!

I know that Lostpedia isn't the end all be all, but for what it's worth, here is what they have in their "Timeline" section...

Day 95 - Saturday, December 25, 2004 (Christmas Day)(On the Island)/Thursday, December 23, 2004 (Off the Island)

"Eggtown"

They also have day 96 as 12/26 on island and 12/24 off island so, at least based on their estimates, time IS different on and off island.

I think it's safe to assume that Penny, in London, CELEBRATING CHRISTMAS, RECIEVING THE LONG AWAITED PHONECALL ON DECEMBER 24, 2004 IS OFF THE ISLAND!!!!!!!!

We even see a christmas tree. HOWEVER, the frieghter would be in sequence with Penny's time if off Island. The DAY, MONTH maybe correct, what about the year?
If the frieghter is in 2004, Penny's in what year? If Penny and the frieghter are in 2004, than the frieghter is in a different time warp. Isn't it suppose to be 2007 off Island? Why does everyone have 2004?

Sayid's compass doesn't work, I assume the watches are also off slightly. Have the writers refered to anyone specifically asking what time it was on a watch BEFORE Daniel? Could this explain the confusion of Daniel on sequences? Daniel's watch was not working right? The timers Daniel had were effected by some radiation to make them run faster? HOWEVER, Daniel was told by the ship that the rocket LANDED according to OFF Island time. Daniel PROVES that Off Island time and Island time ARE different. Right?

We even see a christmas tree. HOWEVER, the frieghter would be in sequence with Penny's time if off Island. The DAY, MONTH maybe correct, what about the year?
If the frieghter is in 2004, Penny's in what year? If Penny and the frieghter are in 2004, than the frieghter is in a different time warp. Isn't it suppose to be 2007 off Island? Why does everyone have 2004?

Sayid's compass doesn't work, I assume the watches are also off slightly. Have the writers refered to anyone specifically asking what time it was on a watch BEFORE Daniel? Could this explain the confusion of Daniel on sequences? Daniel's watch was not working right? The timers Daniel had were effected by some radiation to make them run faster? HOWEVER, Daniel was told by the ship that the rocket LANDED according to OFF Island time. Daniel PROVES that Off Island time and Island time ARE different. Right?

It's 2004 off island. The confusion come when we think of bearded Jack in the Flashforward. That takes place long after the scene when Des talks to Penny. A great deal of time goes by between this phone call and when Jack tells Kate "we have to go back".

It's 2004 off island. The confusion come when we think of bearded Jack in the Flashforward. That takes place long after the scene when Des talks to Penny. A great deal of time goes by between this phone call and when Jack tells Kate "we have to go back".


I'm not thinking of Jack in 2007, I think Jack with the beard is in 2009 or 2010. When they leave the Island there are comments about how LONG a time they survived. Aaron is 2 or 3. Daniel's rocket takes an extra time to arrive. Something is wrong with the time. I think Daniel's blackboard would give further answers if I was a math major.

I'm not thinking of Jack in 2007, I think Jack with the beard is in 2009 or 2010. When they leave the Island there are comments about how LONG a time they survived. Aaron is 2 or 3. Daniel's rocket takes an extra time to arrive. Something is wrong with the time. I think Daniel's blackboard would give further answers if I was a math major.

You're a little messed up with the timeline. When we see bearded Jack on the plane, the flight attendant hands him a newspaper dated Saturday, April 7th, 2007...that's the date when Jack tries to kill himself.

For a complete timeline of LOST, go to lostpedia and search the timeline section. It is a helpful source to get your bearings since this show jumps around alot. It even shows what was happening to the Tailies and the other Losties on certain days...it's pretty cool.

We even see a christmas tree. HOWEVER, the frieghter would be in sequence with Penny's time if off Island. The DAY, MONTH maybe correct, what about the year?
If the frieghter is in 2004, Penny's in what year? If Penny and the frieghter are in 2004, than the frieghter is in a different time warp. Isn't it suppose to be 2007 off Island? Why does everyone have 2004?

Sayid's compass doesn't work, I assume the watches are also off slightly. Have the writers refered to anyone specifically asking what time it was on a watch BEFORE Daniel? Could this explain the confusion of Daniel on sequences? Daniel's watch was not working right? The timers Daniel had were effected by some radiation to make them run faster? HOWEVER, Daniel was told by the ship that the rocket LANDED according to OFF Island time. Daniel PROVES that Off Island time and Island time ARE different. Right?

Penny says she has been looking for Desmond for 3 years. He went on the boat race three years ago. He crashed on the Island three years ago. Penny has been looking for Desmond for three years. She has been looking for him since he disapeared three years ago. He disapeared three years ago. he has been on the Island for three years.
What is so hard to understand here?

Penny says she has been looking for Desmond for 3 years. He went on the boat race three years ago. He crashed on the Island three years ago. Penny has been looking for Desmond for three years. She has been looking for him since he disapeared three years ago. He disapeared three years ago. he has been on the Island for three years.
What is so hard to understand here?

Does Penny say she's been looking for him since the day the race began, the day he went of course, the day it was discovered he was lost, the day she thinks she knew he was actually on an Island and not dead, the day Daddy Widmore said he set up the whole thing to get rid of Des, six months after Des left on the race because she needed that long to quit hating him, etc, etc, etc.

What is so easy to understand here?

BTW, 3 years, exactly, may be a good approximation though :biggrin:

DESMOND: --just remember, December 24th, 2004. If you still care about me you'll have to--
Later

PENNY: Des, I've been looking for you for the past three years. I know about the island. I've been researching---(static)---and then when I spoke to your friend Charlie, that's when I knew you were still alive. That's when I knew I wasn't crazy. Des, are you still there!?

What I gather, to Desmond it is http://bp2.blogger.com/_pG1kU-zfuxM/R8eBSgnj8kI/AAAAAAAAAH0/OOzacgn4Zms/s1600-h/screen-capture-11.jpg December 24, 2004 on the freighter. That was when he was scheduled to call Penny.

We don't know exactly when in 2001 Penny started looking for Des but that's my guess at the year.

Penny says she has been looking for Desmond for 3 years. He went on the boat race three years ago. He crashed on the Island three years ago. Penny has been looking for Desmond for three years. She has been looking for him since he disapeared three years ago. He disapeared three years ago. he has been on the Island for three years.
What is so hard to understand here?


So let me make sure I'm up to speed then. You are of the belief that Desmond left 3 years ago, has been missing for 3 years, and Penny's been looking for him for 3 years, right?

You're a little messed up with the timeline. When we see bearded Jack on the plane, the flight attendant hands him a newspaper dated Saturday, April 7th, 2007...that's the date when Jack tries to kill himself.

For a complete timeline of LOST, go to lostpedia and search the timeline section. It is a helpful source to get your bearings since this show jumps around alot. It even shows what was happening to the Tailies and the other Losties on certain days...it's pretty cool.

thanks, I'll do that.