I'm interested in discussion about just what was going on at the golf course.

Clearly, Sayid is well funded, whether through his "settlement" or through his new employer.

Who was the man who approached him on this exclusive golf course? What was the gist of their encounter?

Also, did Sayid ever play the links on Hurley's island course? He had a beautiful swing.

I'm interested in discussion about just what was going on at the golf course.

Clearly, Sayid is well funded, whether through his "settlement" or through his new employer.

Who was the man who approached him on this exclusive golf course? What was the gist of their encounter?

Also, did Sayid ever play the links on Hurley's island course? He had a beautiful swing.


Answering the questions in reverse here. I do not remember him playing Golf on the Island but who says he didn't

The man that approached Sayid fled very fast once he found out who Sayid was.
I am guessing that was Sayid's target and probably Elsa's boss

The whole scene was just a set up, Sayid wasn't there on holiday or to golf. He was there to kill the man, we don't know who he is at this point.

How could he have been Elsa's boss when Sayid hadn't met Elsa and then her pager goes off in the end?

How could he have been Elsa's boss when Sayid hadn't met Elsa and then her pager goes off in the end?

Right - the guy was probably just another person on his kill "List."

If the guy was on the kill list, was it likely he knew that not only was Sayid a member of the Oceanic Six, but he also was a hitman for Ben's interests?

I know he wasn't there to play golf, I was commenting though on how he appeared to be skilled at it! After being a torturer with the Republican Guard, then on to searching for Nadia, he found time to develop his game. Maybe he did that at the Lostie Links? I'm sure too that at this point we don't know just how long he's been off of the island.

How could he have been Elsa's boss when Sayid hadn't met Elsa and then her pager goes off in the end?

Who's to say that the flashbacks didn't occur out of order?

Anyone who plays golf knows it's just a form of torture...he'd be a natural.:grin:

Did anyone catch the name of the man he shot? Mr Abignew or something? I can't make it out.

Anyone who plays golf knows it's just a form of torture...he'd be a natural.:grin:


YOU GOT THAT RIGHT PINK!

Some other posters are saying it was Mr Avellino????

YOU GOT THAT RIGHT PINK!

Some other posters are saying it was Mr Avellino????

Sayid used a 7 iron. The guy used a 5 iron.

They both hit the same area. Sayid using the 7 iron shows that he is a pretty good player because the difference between both clubs is about 25 to 30 yards.

The guy needed a stronger club to get it there.

** This has no relevance but I thought it was fun to watch **

I wanted to know who he was too, so I played back the scene with Closed Captioning on - and his name was translated "Mr. Avellino".

According to a WIKI listing in Google (I'm paraphrasing but...) St. Andrew Avillino was once an attorney who commited perjury while defending a friend/client. He left his law practice to live a life "of penance". You can read about it in the WIKI, but what I thought was cool was St. Andrew Avellino is the patron saint of sudden death LOL!

What I found interesting about the encounter was the change in expression on the mans face when Sayid said he was one of "the Oceanic 6." I wondered if the look of fear on the mans face was from him saying that specifically or his name.

In other words, if Mr. Avillino would have happened across Jack in a coffee shop and Jack introduced himself as one of the Oceanic 6, would the man still have freaked out, or was it because it was Sayid Jarrah?

The man on the golf course asks Sayid if its his first time in the Seychelles, where the scene is set. Sayid's other flash forward is in Berlin.

I wanted to know who he was too, so I played back the scene with Closed Captioning on - and his name was translated "Mr. Avellino".

According to a WIKI listing in Google (I'm paraphrasing but...) St. Andrew Avillino was once an attorney who commited perjury while defending a friend/client. He left his law practice to live a life "of penance". You can read about it in the WIKI, but what I thought was cool was St. Andrew Avellino is the patron saint of sudden death LOL!

Wow, intersting. SO maybe our Avillino was an attorney for (uh... Oceanic, Dharma, Whidmore, take your pick) and did somebody wrong.

Patron Saint of sudden death, now that's fitting!!

Sayid used a 7 iron. The guy used a 5 iron.

They both hit the same area. Sayid using the 7 iron shows that he is a pretty good player because the difference between both clubs is about 25 to 30 yards.

The guy needed a stronger club to get it there.

** This has no relevance but I thought it was fun to watch **

I had to laugh as well...Sayid says, you are right...I should have used the 5 iron. Which...of course...is wrong.

If Sayid hit a 7 iron pin high, he would hit a 5 iron 20 yards over the green. The right club for Sayid on that shot is a 7 iron.

Avellino(?) is a wimp basically!:biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:

Did anyone see a yardage marker? I say Sayid hit that 7 about 160-170 yards.

You're right, none of this matters but was funny.

I don't think the identity of Mr. Avellino is particularly relevant; the scene was just there to set up Sayid's new occupation.

I'm puzzled as to why they were wagering in Euros on the Seychelles (which uses the rupee.)

What I found interesting about the encounter was the change in expression on the mans face when Sayid said he was one of "the Oceanic 6." I wondered if the look of fear on the mans face was from him saying that specifically or his name.

In other words, if Mr. Avillino would have happened across Jack in a coffee shop and Jack introduced himself as one of the Oceanic 6, would the man still have freaked out, or was it because it was Sayid Jarrah?

Yeah that struck me too....the man looked as good as dead once he realized who he was talking to.

I don't think the identity of Mr. Avellino is particularly relevant; the scene was just there to set up Sayid's new occupation.

I'm puzzled as to why they were wagering in Euros on the Seychelles (which uses the rupee.)

I would argue that if he is on Ben's hit list, he would be very relevant!

I'm sure he is, but I imagine it's a pretty long list. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't have a role assigned to Mr. Avellino currently, and will fit him into things retrospectively. They just needed a victim to illustrate Sayid's post-island activities in the most shocking and arresting manner.

I agree, and hopefully we will learn more about who this Mr. Avellino guy was in another flash forward. But until then I think he's just another person on the list, and was not "the economist."

I would have to say that i thought Sayid's swing was hideous. Have we seen do anything else left handed? i can't remember which hand he uses to shoot with but if you play golf left-handed then you would be left eye dominant. For some reason i think he shoots with his right. In any case, the trajectory on the dude's 5-iron given the uphill slope of the green and the fact that it obviously isn't that far since Sayid's hit a 7-iron, well the ball would not have checked like that.

If the FF's were shown backwards it would explain the gentleman's fear. Sayid told Ben they know I'm after them. Ben says good. By telling Mr Avellino who he was he increased the fear.

If the FF's were shown backwards it would explain the gentleman's fear. Sayid told Ben they know I'm after them. Ben says good. By telling Mr Avellino who he was he increased the fear.

That never really crossed my mind but you have me thinking. That would be a pretty evil twist huh? TPTB showing FF's out of order.

That would explain Avellino's intense fear...

I don't think the identity of Mr. Avellino is particularly relevant; the scene was just there to set up Sayid's new occupation.

I'm puzzled as to why they were wagering in Euros on the Seychelles (which uses the rupee.)

Sayid is doing mercenary work across the globe. He'll be paid in a strong currency. The Euro has been gaining strength for a while now, and many people are starting to prefer being paid in Euros rather than Dollars, as an 'international' currency. There have been a lot of stories here recently about models and other celebs demanding to be paid in Euros. A couple of years ago you can bet Sayid's wager would have been in dollars.

I would have to say that i thought Sayid's swing was hideous. Have we seen do anything else left handed? i can't remember which hand he uses to shoot with but if you play golf left-handed then you would be left eye dominant. For some reason i think he shoots with his right. In any case, the trajectory on the dude's 5-iron given the uphill slope of the green and the fact that it obviously isn't that far since Sayid's hit a 7-iron, well the ball would not have checked like that.

Regardless of where the ball went (it could have been different shots), it was a terrific swing from what we saw.

My thought is that with the "protect your friends" line, Ben and Sayid have come to one common goal. Sayid to protect his pals, Ben to erradicate those people on the list. Sayid might not like it, but Ben might be stringing him along for some other reason.

Maybe he is doing these jobs for Ben, so he can find Nadia.

I would have to say that i thought Sayid's swing was hideous.

You're right. No extension, terrible head bob, no hip rotation. With that swing he'd be lucky to drive much over 200 yards. Still, it doesn't look as bad as Paulo's. Jack's was'nt too bad.:)

Sayid's a soldier, not a golfer. I don't see a big cross over in the skill sets :biggrin:

not splitting hairs but

Andrea Avellino; Lancelotto; Lorenzo Avellino - is the patron saint against sudden death
http://www.catholic-forum.com/saints/sainta36.htm

Great swing and a lefty!!!!

The problem I have with TPTB is the fact that Sayid said "your were right about the 5 iron"

If Sayid hit that with a 5 iron he would have launched it 30 yards over the green!

Obviously Sayid has more power since they both hit the ball of relatively equal distance while on hit a 5 iron and the other a 7.


I rather they screw up something minor like that.....LOL....than fail to tie up the 200 loose ends.

Season 4 is going to be the year of the BEN!

I wish I had Closed Caption because I thought that the name of the hotel that the Economist was to meet Elsa sounded very similiar to Avellino. I will have to rewatch the episode to compare the names.

If the FF's were shown backwards it would explain the gentleman's fear. Sayid told Ben they know I'm after them. Ben says good. By telling Mr Avellino who he was he increased the fear.

Now there's a thought. But I'm wondering, if this guy is part of some group that knows Sayid may be after them, he'd surely know what Sayid looks like. He would have recognized him but instead he doesn't seem alarmed until Sayid tells him who he is.

Hmm, I don't think the FFs were necessarily shown out of order. Ben's List must be of people who were part of the 815 cover-up, i.e. the "bad guys" (according to Ben) who want the island for their own purposes. I think Avellino was afraid because he knew it couldn't be a coincidence that a survivor of 815 had met him out on the deserted golf course, and that Sayid must be there for retribution. (In other words, run for your life!)

That was my take, anyway. ;) :wink1:

Who's to say that the flashbacks didn't occur out of order?Well, first of all seeing as Elsa got the jump on Sayid and had a gun on her and was ready to kill Sayid, I DOUBT that the opening character on the golf course was meant to be her boss. It wouldn't serve any purpose to the story. If it was told out of sequence, so what? What does that change? Elsa at the very least had an idea what was going on, at the most she was conning Sayid trying to get information out of him.
The boss was alerted to Sayid's plan and it is doubtful that her boss did not, at this stage know what Sayid looked like.
100%
Now there's a thought. But I'm wondering, if this guy is part of some group that knows Sayid may be after them, he'd surely know what Sayid looks like. He would have recognized him but instead he doesn't seem alarmed until Sayid tells him who he is.
Yes, exactly. It doesn't make any kind of sense, other than complicating a narrative for the sake of... what exactly?

. It wouldn't serve any purpose to the story.

Not that you know of, anyway. But my real point is that a lot of people are assuming that the flashforwards are happening in order & we have no reason to think that is necessarily true.

Hmm, I don't think the FFs were necessarily shown out of order. Ben's List must be of people who were part of the 815 cover-up, i.e. the "bad guys" (according to Ben) who want the island for their own purposes. I think Avellino was afraid because he knew it couldn't be a coincidence that a survivor of 815 had met him out on the deserted golf course, and that Sayid must be there for retribution. (In other words, run for your life!)

That was my take, anyway. ;) :wink1:

Agree 100%.

In my opinion, there is no way that Avellino could be "the economist", for the simple fact that Elsa talked to him about Sayid, and then she died, so they couldn't have been in further contact. That fact alone would have alerted him. It stands to reason that her boss would know who Sayid is, and it also stands to reason that he would have had a gun with him for protection.

Plus, Avellino's reaction is all wrong. After Sayid mentions 815, Avellino gets a little upset, but then calmly hits the golf ball onto the green, actually shooting a better shot. Now, if Avellino was Elsa's boss, and was the Economist or whatever, he would have pulled out a gun and shot Sayid right there.

Instead, Sayid calmly reached into his bag, no hurry, and pulled out a gun. The man seemed to really understand the situation when he heard his name, and knew that this stranger knew him, and really wasn't a stranger.

My guess is that Avellino is one of the lesser rungs on the ladder and he knew something was wrong, but I don't think that he expected Sayid to kill him or he would have done more to protect himself, like run or fight, when he first heard the words "flight 815".

I agree with this.

Avellino had no idea who Sayid was and I would think that the Economist does...Elsa spoke of Sayid knowingly...as if her boss knew who he was, and one would imagine, what he looked like.

If the Economist is the man, he would know more than everybody...including Elsa and Avellino.

Elsa says things like, he is here...no, I didn't kill him, etc...this tells me that this is not the first time that she had a conversation about Sayid with her boss...which also tells me that the Economist knows what Sayid looks like by now.

I just wonder if the Economist is someone that we have seen before. My guess is that we have.

And if I had to guess who that is, I would say Widmore. Although, I admit he would be the obvious choice and that makes me think that it's someone else.

Not that you know of, anyway. But my real point is that a lot of people are assuming that the flashforwards are happening in order & we have no reason to think that is necessarily true.Of course we have a reason to believe that the flash-forwards are in sequential order. The structure of the episode had each scene continuing the narrative with the exception of the first scene on the golf course, which was there to establish Sayid as a hit-man. If the order was "reversed", how would that work?
The main narrative in the flash-forward is obviously going in order, to place the opening section in after the end of the show wouldn't serve any purpose AT ALL. Beside the fact of course that the guy on the golf course was obviously not Elsa's boss. They've already subverted the basic structure of the show, further messing with the sequence of events inside of a show is insanity at this point. This isn't INLAND EMPIRE. It was a scene to establish the current reality of Sayid.

The fact that the first flashforward establishes Sayid as a hitman doesn't prove it happened BEFORE he "met" Elsa. He could have killed that man sometime during his relationship with her. There were no dates listed on the locations, so it could have happened at anytime after Sayid left th island.

I'm thinking that Sayid purposely "lost" the bet so as to have an excuse to retrieve the gun from the golf bag under the guise of getting his wallet to pay the bet.
I think that Mr. Avellino and the Economist are not the same. They may only be related by being members of the same organization. The fact that he becomes uneasy when Sayid mentions that he is part of the O6 means that they are already notorious as a group but doesn't know Sayid's specifically or his role as a contract killer.

Erik

The fact that the first flashforward establishes Sayid as a hitman doesn't prove it happened BEFORE he "met" Elsa. He could have killed that man sometime during his relationship with her. There were no dates listed on the locations, so it could have happened at anytime after Sayid left th island.You could apply that reasoning to nearly everything. *Maybe* the final scene with Ben was back on the Island and *maybe* they were talking about another woman and *maybe* this was many years after or before the Island when Sayid had been shot by a polar bear. Except you know, that's just not how it was meant to be taken.

Eh, you can look at this one of two ways:

It is in order. The golfer is worried just because it seems like too big of a coincidence that an O6 would be there the same time he, a member of the conspiracy, is.

It is out of order. The golf scene happened sometime after the end of episode scene. The golfer had notice that Sayid was after members of the group, but at first he didn't recognize Sayid. Once he heard the name he shit his pants because he knew Sayid was there to get him.

It can go either way. I prefer the latter version as I will explain below...
100%
You could apply that reasoning to nearly everything. *Maybe* the final scene with Ben was back on the Island and *maybe* they were talking about another woman and *maybe* this was many years after or before the Island when Sayid had been shot by a polar bear. Except you know, that's just not how it was meant to be taken.


Pfft. If you look at the episode structurally, it makes more sense that the golf scene happened later. The final scene brings the whole episode full circle. At the start, you wonder WHY was that guy scared of Sayid? The most obvious answer is that his group knows Sayid is out to get them. HOW do they know that? Because Elsa told them so (on the phone, and her dead body told them he meant business as well).

Eh, you can look at this one of two ways:

It is in order. The golfer is worried just because it seems like too big of a coincidence that an O6 would be there the same time he, a member of the conspiracy, is.

It is out of order. The golf scene happened sometime after the end of episode scene. The golfer had notice that Sayid was after members of the group, but at first he didn't recognize Sayid. Once he heard the name he crap his pants because he knew Sayid was there to get him.

It can go either way. I prefer the latter version as I will explain below...
100%



Pfft. If you look at the episode structurally, it makes more sense that the golf scene happened later. The final scene brings the whole episode full circle. At the start, you wonder WHY was that guy scared of Sayid? The most obvious answer is that his group knows Sayid is out to get them. HOW do they know that? Because Elsa told them so.
But Elsa already knew about Sayid when she met him in the coffee shop. Why does there need to be a shift in sequence in order for this it to make sense? Yes, you understand why the man was afraid of Sayid by the end of the episode. Absolutely nothing points to there either needing or being a Flash-Forward within a Flash-Forward because it serves no purpose beyond this conversation.

Okay. For a second let's pretend that the opening scene with Avellino occurred after Sayid shot Elsa in a linear timeline. Then someone explain why, when Avellino heard that the golfer (Sayid) was a survivor of the plane crash flight 815, didn't he pull out a gun right there and then and defend himself? Or explain why Avellino didn't recognize Sayid? Or why Avellino didn't kill him when he drove up in the golf cart and could have shot him in the back? Or why he didn't say, "Who are you working for?"

The reaction of Avellino just doesn't coincide with the theory that he is the Economist, or even that he is killed later than Elsa. If the group knows that Sayid is on to them, then it stands to reason that they would know what he looks like.

I know it sounds cool to think that the episode comes full circle, but It just doesn't make sense.

Elsa had a gun, why does Avellino not have one? Elsa knew what Sayid looked like, why doesn't Avellino recognize him? There are too many holes in this theory for it to be true.

If Avellino knew who Sayid was and that Sayid was onto him, why would he calmly hit a golf shot -- a better shot than Sayid made -- and then just kind of stammer and try to calmly walk away? The man's actions don't fit the theory.

He never tried to defend himself, or take first action, because he didn't have any reason to suspect that his life was at stake. In comparison, Elsa heard Sayid threaten to kill her boss, and then had a pistol handy and shot him.

I think that Avellino was a low man on the totem pole, and that's usually how it's done. You start with the smaller guys, and get names, and work your way up. When you start killing people in the organization, you are trying to flush out the big guy.

Okay. For a second let's pretend that the opening scene with Avellino occurred after Sayid shot Elsa in a linear timeline. Then someone explain why, when Avellino heard that the golfer (Sayid) was a survivor of the plane crash flight 815, didn't he pull out a gun right there and then and defend himself?

Because not everyone involved in the conspiracy or whatever it is is armed with a gun at all times? We don't know what that guy's deal is, he could be some lower level nerd for all we know.

Or explain why Avellino didn't recognize Sayid?I don't know how big this thing is, and how many people each side has to keep track of. You make it sound like everyone on each side is some super Jason Bourne spy with a photographic memory. From this episode we have no concept of how big each side is...

The reaction of Avellino just doesn't coincide with the theory that he is the Economist,Did I say he was the Economist!? No, I did not. He's just one guy on the list. Don't confuse me with other posters.

If the group knows that Sayid is on to them, then it stands to reason that they would know what he looks like. Obviously. But why would every person in this group, remember we don't know how big this group is, could be 1000 people, be able to identify Sayid within seconds?


If Avellino knew who Sayid was and that Sayid was onto him, why would he calmly hit a golf shot -- a better shot than Sayid made -- and then just kind of stammer and try to calmly walk away? The man's actions don't fit the theory. Calmly!? He was anything but calm once he realized who he was with! What pray tell would you do if you knew someone was there who was most likely there to kill you? The guy looked scared shitless to me. Can't you see how stunned and afraid he was? WHY he was afraid specifically of Sayid was answered at the end of the episode.

I think that Avellino was a low man on the totem pole, and that's usually how it's done. You start with the smaller guys, and get names, and work your way up. When you start killing people in the organization, you are trying to flush out the big guy.Ah, one thing that makes sense. Finally. That's a perfectly reasonable way of looking at it - lower guys get offed first since they are easier to find/get to. (Although Sayid can't get names from a dead man, and Ben seems to get names just fine on his own).
100%
But Elsa already knew about Sayid when she met him in the coffee shop. Why does there need to be a shift in sequence in order for this it to make sense? Yes, you understand why the man was afraid of Sayid by the end of the episode. Absolutely nothing points to there either needing or being a Flash-Forward within a Flash-Forward because it serves no purpose beyond this conversation.

What did she know about Sayid? Did she know he was an assassin? Or did she know he merely worked for the 'other side' in some capacity? We don't know what she knew.

Remember, at the end Sayid pointed out that now they know what he is up to. And by that he meant killing. Why would they say that if Elsa and Co. knew everything about him before they met?

. Why does there need to be a shift in sequence in order for this it to make sense?

There doesn't have to be a shift in sequence, but we don't know one way or the other whether there was. No one, based on what we saw, can say definitively that the flashforwards were shown in sequence or out of sequence - just that the possibility exists. I was merely pointing out that an assumption was being made that they were in sequence, when there was nothing to point that they were or weren't in sequence.

There doesn't have to be a shift in sequence, but we don't know one way or the other whether there was. No one, based on what we saw, can say definitively that the flashforwards were shown in sequence or out of sequence - just that the possibility exists. I was merely pointing out that an assumption was being made that they were in sequence, when there was nothing to point that they were or weren't in sequence.

Exactly. The Golf scene could work if it was before the Germany stuff or sometime after the Germany stuff. It could go either way...

Colonel Corn makes perfect sense with what he is saying. Those were my thoughts as well, but you already have put it down, so I'll just back up what you are saying!

What I found interesting about the encounter was the change in expression on the mans face when Sayid said he was one of "the Oceanic 6." I wondered if the look of fear on the mans face was from him saying that specifically or his name.


Yes, I noticed the same thing too. He froze at the mention of Oceanic 6. Guess we'll manage to discover the reason as the show goes on (at least, I hope so).

Colonel Corn makes perfect sense with what he is saying. Those were my thoughts as well, but you already have put it down, so I'll just back up what you are saying!

Yes, "perfect sense" if you assume that everyone is a Jason Bourne style pistol whipping bad-***. You know, because everyone in an organization is a super spy assassin. :drowsy: Colonel Corn did after all claim that Golfer Dude should have recognized Sayid from far away and then shot him while driving by him on his Golf Cart. Also, Colonel Corn claims the man was calm after he found out who Sayid was. I guess his TV and yours had static issues during the rest of that scene.

My point was that if Avellino was one of the higher ups in the organization he would have recognized Sayid.

I also never said that he would recognize Sayid from "far away". I simply said it was possible for Avellino to have shot him in the back when he drove up on the cart.

My claim that the man was "calm" after he heard Sayid's name was based on the fact that after he heard the name, he set his feet and made a good golf shot. I don't play golf, but it is my understanding that you must remain calm while shooting. He didn't shank or hook the ball, he hit it right next to the hole.

The man was OBVIOUSLY upset, but my main point was that he wasn't so upset --he didn't fear for his life-- that he tried to leave immediately.

In fact he tried to not let Sayid know that he recognized the name, but he did a horrible job at it.

ALSO, my claim was made on the premise that after Sayid shot Elsa, the group would be "onto him", therefore making it much more feasible that anyone in the organization would know who he is and that he was coming for them.

I admit there is not enough evidence to support which scene came first in a linear timeline, I'm only saying I believe that Avellino's killing came first, because his reaction would not indicate otherwise.
100%
It just doesn't make sense that if Avellino knew Sayid was onto him because Elsa informed the group that he would just stay there and not try and defend himself.

If the man was high up enough in the organization to have been informed, he would be high up enough to have a gun with him.

I don't know what's going on in the future between these two groups, but it's DEFINITELY a "Jason Bourne" type of situation.

My point was that if Avellino was one of the higher ups in the organization he would have recognized Sayid.

I also never said that he would recognize Sayid from "far away". I simply said it was possible for Avellino to have shot him in the back when he drove up on the cart.

My claim that the man was "calm" after he heard Sayid's name was based on the fact that after he heard the name, he set his feet and made a good golf shot. I don't play golf, but it is my understanding that you must remain calm while shooting. He didn't shank or hook the ball, he hit it right next to the hole.

The man was OBVIOUSLY upset, but my main point was that he wasn't so upset --he didn't fear for his life-- that he tried to leave immediately.

In fact he tried to not let Sayid know that he recognized the name, but he did a horrible job at it.

ALSO, my claim was made on the premise that after Sayid shot Elsa, the group would be "onto him", therefore making it much more feasible that anyone in the organization would know who he is and that he was coming for them.

I admit there is not enough evidence to support which scene came first in a linear timeline, I'm only saying I believe that Avellino's killing came first, because his reaction would not indicate otherwise.
100%
It just doesn't make sense that if Avellino knew Sayid was onto him because Elsa informed the group that he would just stay there and not try and defend himself.

If the man was high up enough in the organization to have been informed, he would be high up enough to have a gun with him.

I don't know what's going on in the future between these two groups, but it's DEFINITELY a "Jason Bourne" type of situation.

Sayid says..."they will know I'm coming now" to which Ben replies..."Good".

If I were the big bad Economist, I would probably make sure that all of my minions had a picture, description, and background of Sayid Jarrah because...after all...he will be coming for them.
(If Ben can get detailed background info on all of the 815 survivors on a lost island somewhere, I would think that the Economist could get the same type of info on Sayid)

Avellino had NO IDEA who Sayid was until he told him his name. If this organization is so unorganized that they never gave their members at least a picture of Sayid, I would be very surprised.

The fact is that Avellino "didn't know that Sayid was coming"...obviously. for this reason alone, I say that this flash happened before Sayid met Elsa.

I agree. That's all I was trying to say. LostLenny, it seems you are better at expressing what I want to say than I am.

I was also just trying to propose some things that Avellino might have done if he had known who Sayid was and that he was coming for him. But he didn't.

Sayid says..."they will know I'm coming now" to which Ben replies..."Good".

If I were the big bad Economist, I would probably make sure that all of my minions had a picture, description, and background of Sayid Jarrah because...after all...he will be coming for them.
...
Avellino had NO IDEA who Sayid was until he told him his name. If this organization is so unorganized that they never gave their members at least a picture of Sayid, I would be very surprised.

Again. If the organization is large, and that golf man isn't one of the higher ups who knows everything that is going on, I could EASILY see how his reaction would be exactly as portrayed. He was informed of Sayid the crazy dude causing big problems, but if he is just a peon in a much bigger machine, he wouldn't be too concerned when the organization wide warning went out. (Also, who knows how many of these warnings go out to organization members?).

From the looks of things you seem to be implying the Economist is Dr. Evil and he only has a dozen henchmen or something. Why are you assuming the Economist is the Big Bad again? For all we know he could be one of 100 mid-high level managers. Also, why assume everyone Sayid is going after is a "minion" of the Economist? Maybe Economist guy only runs one branch or sub branch of the organization.



The fact is that Avellino "didn't know that Sayid was coming"...obviously. for this reason alone, I say that this flash happened before Sayid met Elsa.Unfortunately, once he knew who the person was on the golf course, he looked scared "crap"-less as the filters like to call it. So he obviously was extremely worried that Sayid was right next to him - which implies he knew Sayid was bad news. Which implies that scene happened after all the other flash forwards.


There is no lock solid argument either way.
100%
I agree. That's all I was trying to say. LostLenny, it seems you are better at expressing what I want to say than I am.

I was also just trying to propose some things that Avellino might have done if he had known who Sayid was and that he was coming for him. But he didn't.

If that was all you were trying to say, then why spend half your post assuming the guy was super spy like Jason Bourne? OBVIOUSLY he didn't know that Sayid was coming for him personally, on that day, on that golf course. He if anything only knew Sayid was trouble for some organization he was part of in some way, an organization whose size and influence we do not know.

You are changing everything and assuming that that guy knew Sayid was there and that Sayid was going to kill him. That's the only explanation I see when you come up with a ridiculous notion like oh he should have done a drive by on Sayid with his golf cart. I mean come on dude.

My claim that the man was "calm" after he heard Sayid's name was based on the fact that after he heard the name, he set his feet and made a good golf shot.

So you ignored his obvious emotional distress because he hit the ball well? Why? He clearly wasn't calm the instant he figured out who he was with. Sorry, you are completely wrong here.

But my main point was that he wasn't so upset --he didn't fear for his life-- that he tried to leave immediately.

If that was your main point why did it only take up such a small part of your post? Also, if you thought a man standing 6 feet away from you, in an open field, might possibly capture/injure/torture/kill you, you are telling me you really would run? Where? What purpose would that serve? My counter point is is that fleeing wouldn't have any advantage whatsoever considering where they were. Sayid still could have shot him if he was 5 more feet away. And if Sayid wasn't planning on shooting him, fleeing would FORCE Sayid to shoot him, so he doesn't get away.

His strategy of playing it cool, and trying to leave normally, in the hopes that their meeting at that moment was a coincidence (ie Sayid was planning on getting to him later) is the absolute best possible strategy.

Let's fight.

I thought we were having a discussion. You said several less than convincing things so I addressed them.

Anywhoo, I think we both agree that it could go either way, even if we are heavily leaning in opposite directions. Yes?

When Sayid was playing golf with his intended target, and revealed that he was one of the O6, the guy got this look...like he was talking to a ghost, like he was afraid of Sayid all of a sudden. Do you think it's something (else) weird, or did he maybe realize from that remark that S was a danger to him...and, what was golf guy's name? I've watched it three times and can't hear it. I predict we'll see him again.

That's what I noticed, too! I was confused, at first. I wonder if this person knows that Sayid is working for Ben? Or at least knows something strange about the 815 crash.

Well, I assume he was on Ben's list of people to kill and he might have known something about an O6er working for his opposition.

I'm pretty sure he got suspicious of Sayid once he said he was one of the O6. One of the survivors just HAPPENED to run into him? The guy probably knew Ben was gunning for him.

I think he knew that he was in danger when he realized who Sayid was. Obviously, he was on the list of those that Ben wanted killed. I would think that he would know that whatever he is involved in would be dangerous.

I don't think we will see him again...he looked pretty dead. I guess we could see him during an earlier flash forward, though.

Wasn't this a fantastic scene?

I was afraid for Sayid at the start; this man appeared to have sought him out - and perhaps he did, for company or to hustle him - but to see it change about face so... that guy near kacked himself when Sayid announced who he was.

(that description doesn't do justice - but I'm so tired now that the suggestions the Firefox dictionary is helpfully making aren't even close to what my knackered hands are doing to my frazzled brain's efforts at English. Meh - that wasn't even grammatical was it?)

My guess - this wasn't Sayid's first hit, and that he was in some sense expected.

his name was Avellino, i believe. he seemed jittery when Sayid first mentioned that he got a settlement from a plane crash, and then pretty much soiled himself when Sayid revealed his full identity. given that Avellino is obviously a very wealthy man, and got spooked at the mention of the plane crash, i wonder if perhaps the reason for his assassination has to do with involvement in the cover-up/staging of 815. well-funded organizations seem to be behind the shady goings-on in Lost world.

The guy nearly SHS, it was so funny.
Dont mess with the O6 ; ).
Maybe Avellino had a lil bitty part in the 815 cover up/discovery.
We'll have to wait and see.






"Driveshaft, more like Suckshaft"

I had to laugh as well...Sayid says, you are right...I should have used the 5 iron. Which...of course...is wrong.

If Sayid hit a 7 iron pin high, he would hit a 5 iron 20 yards over the green. The right club for Sayid on that shot is a 7 iron.

Avellino(?) is a wimp basically!:biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:

Did anyone see a yardage marker? I say Sayid hit that 7 about 160-170 yards.

You're right, none of this matters but was funny.

Not to pick nits here but a skilled golfer can work different clubs to similar distances. I have seen Ananika Sorenstram (sp?) demonstrate hitting to a target 120 yards away with 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, & Wedges. Her point was by adjusting how hard she swung she could use different clubs to effect how the ball cut through the wind, whether it would release and run when it hit or stop and back up depending on what shot she needed. That being said attacking the pin like they were most anyone is going to use a higher lofted iron so the ball sticks and maybe spins back a bit.
Mr Avelino was a decent size guy but he must be a pansy to need a 5 iron for a 160 yards.
I know this b/c I can only hit my five about 170 yards:hypocrit:;)

Sayid's skillset never fails to impress me.

Not to pick nits here but a skilled golfer can work different clubs to similar distances. I have seen Ananika Sorenstram (sp?) demonstrate hitting to a target 120 yards away with 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, & Wedges.

You won't believe this, but a friend of mine went round a short par 4 using just a putter. It took him three attempts to get round in par. Truly impressive.

Did this scene remind anyone else of the golf wager between Goldfinger and James Bond? I half expected to see Odd Job hiding in the trees.

Exactly. The Golf scene could work if it was before the Germany stuff or sometime after the Germany stuff. It could go either way...Why then would you choose to use it, if the purpose is just as well served with a sequential telling of the story? This isn't the same deal as the Flash-forward in the finale to Season 3. That changed the entire structure of the show. This would merely re-arrange events in an unsatisfying and bizarrely anti-climactic fashion. Plus there is no sign of it being the case, other than it being theoretically possible, in the broadest possible sense.
100%
Sayid says..."they will know I'm coming now" to which Ben replies..."Good".

If I were the big bad Economist, I would probably make sure that all of my minions had a picture, description, and background of Sayid Jarrah because...after all...he will be coming for them.
(If Ben can get detailed background info on all of the 815 survivors on a lost island somewhere, I would think that the Economist could get the same type of info on Sayid)

Avellino had NO IDEA who Sayid was until he told him his name. If this organization is so unorganized that they never gave their members at least a picture of Sayid, I would be very surprised.

The fact is that Avellino "didn't know that Sayid was coming"...obviously. for this reason alone, I say that this flash happened before Sayid met Elsa.
Very well put, both of you.

The Economist was obviously significant enough to have had a bodyguard (assistant whatever) in Elsa and a pre-determined safe-house so he/she knew that somebody was after them. It seems likely that Elsa was there to meet Sayid in the same fashion that Sayid was there to meet Elsa. They were conning each other. I thought that was a given. She was more than prepared for him and would not have gotten into that situation as being such an important employee of "the Economist" if it had not been pre-determined. Also: she said "I thought I told you not to call me until..."
She had been in contact with this person during the time Sayid and her were together.
It was a lie, she was conning him to get information.

I DOUBT that after all these precautions the Economist woke up one morning and thought "Let's go golfing!" with NO bodyguards, with NO guns, with NO precautions.
And of course the fact that he didn't recognise the face.

And of course the whole pointless aspect to putting the murder of the Econmist first from a narrative/structural point of view, as stated above and before.
100%
Okay. For a second let's pretend that the opening scene with Avellino occurred after Sayid shot Elsa in a linear timeline. Then someone explain why, when Avellino heard that the golfer (Sayid) was a survivor of the plane crash flight 815, didn't he pull out a gun right there and then and defend himself? Or explain why Avellino didn't recognize Sayid? Or why Avellino didn't kill him when he drove up in the golf cart and could have shot him in the back? Or why he didn't say, "Who are you working for?"

The reaction of Avellino just doesn't coincide with the theory that he is the Economist, or even that he is killed later than Elsa. If the group knows that Sayid is on to them, then it stands to reason that they would know what he looks like.

I know it sounds cool to think that the episode comes full circle, but It just doesn't make sense.

Elsa had a gun, why does Avellino not have one? Elsa knew what Sayid looked like, why doesn't Avellino recognize him? There are too many holes in this theory for it to be true.

If Avellino knew who Sayid was and that Sayid was onto him, why would he calmly hit a golf shot -- a better shot than Sayid made -- and then just kind of stammer and try to calmly walk away? The man's actions don't fit the theory.

He never tried to defend himself, or take first action, because he didn't have any reason to suspect that his life was at stake. In comparison, Elsa heard Sayid threaten to kill her boss, and then had a pistol handy and shot him.

I think that Avellino was a low man on the totem pole, and that's usually how it's done. You start with the smaller guys, and get names, and work your way up. When you start killing people in the organization, you are trying to flush out the big guy.Now if the episode had ended with the golf scene, it would have come full circle but as it stands, it would be an out of sequence narrative for the sake of it with no evidence provided in episode (or anywhere else) that this had occurred.

Good posts Colonel Corn!

One other thing that I noticed about this episode...

Avellino says something like..."a wager makes everything more fun/interesting..."

Later on during the episode, when Sayid is thrown in the rec center with Ben, Ben says (paraphrase) "I lost a dollar you know, I bet Locke one dollar that you wouldn't fall for his trap with Reyes..."

I wonder what the significance is of the two wagers...they were obviously meant to be connected being in the same episode...not sure they mean anything but I thought that it was cool.

I guess Ben believes that a friendly wager makes everything more fun too.

Thanks, Bugul.

You reaffirmed my point. I was trying to take it even farther. For example, I posted that IF Avellino had known who Sayid was, and that he was after him, why wouldn't he have just shot him in the back when he pulled up on the cart?

It sounds ridiculous, but this whole deal seems like a REAL dangerous situation for everyone involved, so why take the chance if you know who Sayid is already? Why not just kill him before he even gets a chance to turn around?

I am know thinking that because of Avellino's death, they were onto Sayid, and that's why they sent Elsa out to figure out what was going on. Or maybe there were more people killed between Avellino and Elsa that we weren't shown yet.

I was thinking that Avellino's murder should have alerted someone, but since it was likely the beginning of events, they didn't have enough information -- they didn't know who the boss was.
100%
This is when someone chimes in that Avellino obviously doesn't know who Sayid is/was, because he gets scared when he hears the name.

So why didn't he know who Sayid was? He was most likely an underling, or a lower level rung on the ladder and wouldn't have been informed.

And that's why the scene likely happened before the scenes with Elsa in a linear timeline.

People on concentrating too much on is Avellino the Economist/is he working with the Economist.
All we know is that Ben hired Sayid to kill people. We don't know that they are all working together really. They could be from different factions of one group, they could be 2 groups, or even 3, just killing all people connected to the island or Dharma or anything.
That being said, the golf scene happened first! Come on.
It set up Sayid as a hitman. It was showing Elsa was not the first time Sayid did this sort of thing, nor was Avellino most likely. If Avellino wanted him dead he could've knocked Sayid out with the 5 iron while Sayid took his shot! He obviously wasn't expecting to die on that course. He just happened to be on the list
100%
From the new Cuse/Lindelof interview in another thread
"
DOC JENSEN: Some people are even wondering if the flash-forward stories in each episode are being presented chronologically. For example, did the opening sequence of Sayid's flash-forward — in which he killed the Italian guy on the golf course in the Seychelles — actually occur after his ill-fated Elsa affair?
LINDELOF: There was originally a line in that episode where Sayid said, ''I've just returned from the Seychelles,'' which would have cleared all that up. But we lost it in editing because the scene went on for four minutes. When we're presenting you with a narrative, it's always happening in chronological order."

People on concentrating too much on is Avellino the Economist/is he working with the Economist.
All we know is that Ben hired Sayid to kill people. We don't know that they are all working together really. They could be from different factions of one group, they could be 2 groups, or even 3, just killing all people connected to the island or Dharma or anything.
That being said, the golf scene happened first! Come on.
It set up Sayid as a hitman. It was showing Elsa was not the first time Sayid did this sort of thing, nor was Avellino most likely. If Avellino wanted him dead he could've knocked Sayid out with the 5 iron while Sayid took his shot! He obviously wasn't expecting to die on that course. He just happened to be on the list
100%
From the new Cuse/Lindelof interview in another thread
"
DOC JENSEN: Some people are even wondering if the flash-forward stories in each episode are being presented chronologically. For example, did the opening sequence of Sayid's flash-forward — in which he killed the Italian guy on the golf course in the Seychelles — actually occur after his ill-fated Elsa affair?
LINDELOF: There was originally a line in that episode where Sayid said, ''I've just returned from the Seychelles,'' which would have cleared all that up. But we lost it in editing because the scene went on for four minutes. When we're presenting you with a narrative, it's always happening in chronological order."Thank you!

Thank you, mikebinos. Glad we've cleared that one up

Peace
M

If the FF's were shown backwards it would explain the gentleman's fear. Sayid told Ben they know I'm after them. Ben says good. By telling Mr Avellino who he was he increased the fear.

agreed! Maybe this fella was Ben's lawyer at one time..... :confused:

agreed! Maybe this fella was Ben's lawyer at one time..... :confused:If you'll just scroll up the page a bit... already been officially debunked.

Got tired of reading what is and what isn't Cause I know...but I don't know if the reason I know is considered spoiler info or not cause I don't know all the spoiler rules so I won't say.

But...apparently some golfers are on this channel. I are not a golfer so here's the question to the golfers...

Avellino found out that Sayid was an 06'r and was very shaken by the revelation BEFORE his shot...yet, he gets off a great shot. I thought golfers had problems golfing when parameters aren';t good.. Noise, wx, scared poopless.... how'd he get off such a great shot.

Other questions answered. Being a lefty, I noticed Sayid's golfing leftiness. He wears is watch on his left arm, generally a sign of a righty. He carries the gun all through the barracks in his right hand, a sign of a righty. He did a coupla other things right handed as well.. Must be ambidext and the scene was not mirror imaged unless they took the time to be sure his watch was switched as well.

I'm just saying....

...yet, he gets off a great shot. I thought golfers had problems golfing when parameters aren';t good.. Noise, wx, scared poopless.... how'd he get off such a great shot.


Exactly.

Colin Montgomerie seems to deal pretty well with the inane name-calling when he plays in the Ryder Cup. Perhaps our golfer has the same mental proficiency.

Well, looks like FFs within an episode go in chronological order if you can believe Darlton. Or at least Sayid's FF did that. Don't have the link, but they reveal this in a Doc Jensen interview...

People on concentrating too much on is Avellino the Economist/is he working with the Economist.
All we know is that Ben hired Sayid to kill people. We don't know that they are all working together really. They could be from different factions of one group, they could be 2 groups, or even 3, just killing all people connected to the island or Dharma or anything.
That being said, the golf scene happened first! Come on.
It set up Sayid as a hitman. It was showing Elsa was not the first time Sayid did this sort of thing, nor was Avellino most likely. If Avellino wanted him dead he could've knocked Sayid out with the 5 iron while Sayid took his shot! He obviously wasn't expecting to die on that course. He just happened to be on the list
100%
From the new Cuse/Lindelof interview in another thread
"
DOC JENSEN: Some people are even wondering if the flash-forward stories in each episode are being presented chronologically. For example, did the opening sequence of Sayid's flash-forward — in which he killed the Italian guy on the golf course in the Seychelles — actually occur after his ill-fated Elsa affair?
LINDELOF: There was originally a line in that episode where Sayid said, ''I've just returned from the Seychelles,'' which would have cleared all that up. But we lost it in editing because the scene went on for four minutes. When we're presenting you with a narrative, it's always happening in chronological order."

From the previous page.

Got tired of reading what is and what isn't Cause I know...but I don't know if the reason I know is considered spoiler info or not cause I don't know all the spoiler rules so I won't say.

But...apparently some golfers are on this channel. I are not a golfer so here's the question to the golfers...

Avellino found out that Sayid was an 06'r and was very shaken by the revelation BEFORE his shot...yet, he gets off a great shot. I thought golfers had problems golfing when parameters aren';t good.. Noise, wx, scared poopless.... how'd he get off such a great shot.

Other questions answered. Being a lefty, I noticed Sayid's golfing leftiness. He wears is watch on his left arm, generally a sign of a righty. He carries the gun all through the barracks in his right hand, a sign of a righty. He did a coupla other things right handed as well.. Must be ambidext and the scene was not mirror imaged unless they took the time to be sure his watch was switched as well.

I'm just saying....

It is rare but some golfers prefer to golf opposite hand. Phil Mickelson learned on left handed clubs and still golfs left even though he is really right handed.
IMO believe it has some correlation with the left/right brain connection. I would not put past TPTB to make a statement that Sayid is a right brained poet-artist type at his core despite the fact we know him as a shrewdly analytic left brain type....maybe:undecide:

My dad does everything lefty except hit a baseball and golf ball.

And a good golfer doesn't let anything keep him from hitting a good shot. Being able to control your head is THE most important part of being a good golfer.

I wouldn't know...I'm not good enough!:biggrin: