So we've definitely established that slowtime is a fact. But *how* does it behave? It seems to me there are three possibilities, and I thought I'd open a thread to weigh the scenarios, and any other possibilities I'm missing. I'm launching this as a "geek-out-mechanics-of-time-travel" thread as opposed to a "Whoa, now we know why Walt is Tall!" thread :biggrin:

The three time displacement possibilities I see are:

1). Fixed Lag: The island is a constant 31-minutes-and-change behind the real world, and it always will be. If it's noon on the island, it's 12:31:19pm in the real world. Wow, I accidentally emoticonned there. :eek2: That's twelve-thirty-one-nineteen for you.

2) Fixed Ratio Lag: A year on the island is equivalent to some fraction of a year in the real world. If an island year is 3/5 of a regular year, in 15 years the island will be 10 years further behind the real world. In 24 years, the island will be 16 years further behind. Or some other constant ratio (most comparable to the Narnia scenario).

3). Variable Ratio Lag: The amount of time the island is behind the real world depends.

My guess, from the "Proof!" thread, is that most people fall into #2, though I'm personally leaning toward #3, based on all the emphasis Faraday (and Ben in Season 2) placed on leaving the island according to an extremely precise heading.

The precise mechanics of how #3 scenario might work out are a bit complex, however. In attempting to explain them below, I'm drawing heavily on the thoughts of imfromthepast (http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?p=1761791#post1761791) and havok579257 (http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showpost.php?p=1762747&postcount=128) in other places on the 'Lage. I'm very much hoping you guys will keep me honest. Deep breath, here goes:

A variable ratio lag scenario is not an "alternate universe" theory in the strict sense. But thinking along those lines is helpful because it requires an understanding of *spacetime*. An extremely tricky subject, because it exists in four dimensions (the three we usually think of, plus time) and our brains are really only wired to comprehend three dimensions (the three we usually think of).

So.... to understand what's going on with time discrepancies, temporarily accept the idea of the island as a small "alternate universe." and the rest of the world as a bigger, adjacent, separate universe.

Also, you have to think about universes in a certain way: A universe is like the surface of a balloon. Or a sphere. (though a balloon is the best example as you'll see in a minute) The important thing is to understand that if you keep walking along the surface of the universe in one direction, sooner or later you'll end up where you started. (In other words, the next time someone accuses you of acting like you're the center of the universe, you can say "Mathematically speaking, I am!")

OK, now imagine that the small balloon-universe of the island and the big balloon-universe of the real world naturally exist side by side. Each universe has its own rules and its own time. However, at one very tiny point, the two universes touch. At this special point you can cross between them. And also at this point, the times of the two universes agree. 12:00am, March 1, 2004 on the Island is 12:00am March 1, 2004 in the real world. This is the point of tangency.

Now, because the universes are like balloons, you can smush them together so that they don't just meet at a single point, but they're adjacent along a considerable amount of area -- they share a "common wall". You can now come and go between the universes at any point along the common wall.

BIG HOWEVER:

When you cross along the common wall, the farther you are away from the original point of tangency, the less the times of the two universes will agree. Therefore:

* When Faraday had Regina fire the rocket onto the island, it didn't cross between the two universes quite at the tangent point. So it showed up 31 minutes late. This is why Faraday told Lapidus to fly exactly the same heading he came in on, to avoid any further time discrepancies.

* When Desmond sailed off the island at the end of Season three, he didn't sail in the direction of the common wall. So -- like sailing along the surface of a balloon -- he ended up back where he started.

* For the same reason, Ben gave Michael very specific directions for sailing off the island in season 2. Whether this was to achieve an outcome more like Lapidus' or Desmond's remains to be seen.

* People are able to communicate across the universes in real time because radio and satellite signals are broadcast in all directions. This means that *one* vector of the signal always crosses between the universes at the optimum tangent point. Other vectors cross further from the tangent point, arriving at different times. Remember Hurley picking up old time music on his radio?

Now, I said to think of the island and the real world as separate universes, but they don't have to be. "Strong electromagnetic forces" or other sci-fi gobbledygook nobody understands could have pinched the island off from the rest of the universe, the way a carnival barker would pinch a balloon to make a balloon animal. Same deal, you can cross without time discrepancy at the precise location of the pinch. You can also cross between other parts of the poodle that touch, but the times won't agree.

The key is to remmeber that, under the variable ratio lag scenario, the real world isn't 31 minutes ahead of the island. Or four years ahead. or 1000 years ahead (or could it be behind? I doubt it, but I'm not sure). The discrepancy depends on how close you are to the point of tangency when you cross.

It's possible that someone traveling from the year 2100 could arrive on the island before someone travelling from 2008. However, I don't *think* anyone could ever arrive earlier than "now" on the island. In other words, it's not possible for someone from the real world to cross over and change the island's history. They can only change it's future -- just like everyone else in the present :biggrin:

On a final note, many people often bring up the Amazingly Ageless Mr. Alpert in time discussions. Of course, that makes sense. But I've always suspected his not getting older is probably closer related to Locke's miraculous healing powers than spacetime shenanigans. Remember there's no shortage of weird stuff going on here. I personally don't find Richard Alpert very useful for spacetime discussions because there's so much we don't know about him. Yet.

Slow time? I'm finding this very hard to grasp, especially after what we saw with the rocket. Sure, the island clock was 31 minutes behind the rocket clock, but that alone makes no sense with what we actually saw.

According to the boat, the rocket took 20 seconds to reach the island. On the island, it took much longer. While those 20 seconds were ticking away on the boat, minutes were ticking away on Daniel's island clock. So, how/why can his clock be behind?

There have been hints that time runs slower on the island than it does off the island. But, if that were the case, the 20 second rocket trip should have taken less than 20 seconds to reach the beacon, not more. Color me confused.

:13: wooooohhhooooo.....thats some serious thinking....

:clapping: Oh, bless you for entangling some of the theorizing webs around this slowtime concept.

There are flying cars and no cities floating on clouds in either of the three flashforwards we've seen so far so it's safe to say upon going back to the real world, the Oceanic Six landed there at a point in time close to the crash date.

The need for an extremely accurate bearing struck me because it reminded me of Jack's maps and compass in TTLG and how he was hoping to crash back onto the Island. Also of some interest to me was Ben's tumor and why he couldn't just go and find himself a spinal surgeon out in the real world since he seems to be coming and going as he pleases. I need to go back and rewatch those scenes, but for now, I suspect he would have if he could but for some reason, he was unable to find the right rabbit hole.

I vote for #3 so far. Thank you again for laying it out there like this.

I was thinking along the lines of #3 also, though not as comprehensively. My similar idea is that it's a some type of ripple effect. The further away from the island (or the strongest magnetic point which seems to be the former Swan), the greater the time difference. The freighter wasn't too far away from the island and there was a 31 minute difference. Maybe on the mainland it could be months or even years different.

The explanation is going to be interesting as it seems like communication to and from the island is instantaneous, but physical objects are effected. Very strange.

Like timelost23 said, if time on island is running slower, the rocket would have reached them faster, not slower. And if time is running faster on the island, it contradicts the theory of Richard Alpert's agelessness being due to the island time running much slower than "real time". My brain is mush now.

If we go with the hypothesis that the island is a number of years behind the "real" world, could that account for the healing of Locke and Rose? Their bodies revert back to the time on the island when they were not sick or injured. Also, the time difference could have something to do with fetus gestation on the island and why both the babies and mothers die. However, I am not sure how this would work.

Just a theory.

Like timelost23 said, if time on island is running slower, the rocket would have reached them faster, not slower. And if time is running faster on the island, it contradicts the theory of Richard Alpert's agelessness being due to the island time running much slower than "real time". My brain is mush now.

The rocket didn't travel any faster or slower. Outside the "field" it was one time, inside the field it was another...it still only took "physically" the amount of time it takes a rocket to go that distance (probably 20 seconds). It's just that since time does move slower on the island, the Island was already lagging behind from the time the rocket was fired.

Or number 4- There is no time difference at all between the RW and the island, HOWEVER, there is LOST time traveling through the gateway that separates the island from the outside world that is totally random. The little rocket was LOST for 31 minutes, but the radio waves for the Amelia Earhart news flash was LOST for many many years passing through the "gateway" between the two places.

Based on Einsteins theory of relativity, time slows down as you approach traveling the speed of light. The conversation between Faraday and Regina somehow bypasses this gateway as that was done in realtime. Whatever the snowglobe effect is, the barrier that causes the island to be invisible to the outside world, causes a distortion or LOST time for most other items passing thru this barrier, from ships, to balloons to airplanes and rockets and even radio waves, it also apparently bends light in regards to Faradays comment about how the light scatters.

So, the time may not have been slower or faster in either the island or on the boat but somehow those 31 minutes were LOST.


So, in conclusion, I do not believe there is any time difference whatsoever between the island and the real world, but there is something that causes LOST time when traveling between the two.

I do not believe there is any time difference whatsoever between the island and the real world, but there is something that causes LOST time when traveling between the two.

This is what I think too. Whilst the whole Proof! thread is interesting it seems to be straying somewhat IMHO. And besides, LOST time = Mittelos.

or number 5

the freighter people would have been briefed about the time discrepancy before they landed.Yet Dan seemed surprised and somewhat distraught by his experiment.Why?

either the time difference is accelerating,therefore when they get off the island,it will be decades or centuries in the future.

or its decelerating,meaning that island time and real world time will catch up,putting an end to the islands special properties,or signalling some catastrophic event

There are 4 time issues I am looking at:

Boat time, Rocket time, island time, and phone time.

Lets look at the experiment:

In boat time it took 20 seconds or so for the rocket to hit its target. This would imply that radar or sonar or more likely GPS established that the payload was transported from the boat to the island in that time.

In rocket time, it took about 30 longer than island time for the payload to get there. This was established by the digital clock on the rocket ala the clock around the dogs neck in Back to the FUture. That clock being there also shows that this issue was known to the feighties ahead of time.

In island time it took the rocket hours longer than boat time and 30 min longer than rocket time.

BUT while all of this is going on the phone conversation is going on in real time as far as we can tell. So the phone signal does not seem to be affected by this time issue

UNLESS the phones are special in the fact that they slow down the talk from the island and speed up the talk from the boat... but that idea is shot down by the fact that there are no outragous pauses in the conversation from the island point of view.

More on all of this later...

Could this be how the polar bears ended up in Tunisia? They messed up the bearing and sent them on the wrong continent and in the wrong century?

The other question is how fast information passes between the island and the rest of the world. Apparently, the Others have been in contact with the outside. Do we know definitively whether there are any gaps in time revealed by these contacts.?

1). Fixed Lag:
2) Fixed Ratio Lag:
3). Variable Ratio Lag:


2 and 3 are not possible. If time was moving at a different rate on and off the island, they would not be able to communicate by radio in real time. Rather, if time on the island was moving at 3/5 of off the island, then Lapidos would hear Regina talking at 5/3 speed, instead of at the normal rate and pitch.

One thing that would make sense to me, is if the island was surrounded by an irregular layer of highly relativistic space-time -- so that when the rocket hit the layer, it's local time was slowed down for the 3 hours it took to penetrate the layer, so that the journey only took 2 hours and 29 minutes (I'd have to check what the exact time was) from the perspective of the rocket.

But we've seen people being on the island younger than they should be (alpert) and older than they should be (walt), so I think it's reasonable to conclude that the bearing you take take in going on or off the island is going to have a huge factor on how you move through both time and space.

But I'll look up what the exact ratios of the time differences are, and the speed of the rocket, and see if the ratios suggest anything more specific.

I'd just like to interject here that it seem to me that the Oceanic 6 are returning home to their pasts. Jack's father seems to still be alive when he grows his beard, since he is referenced at the hospital and at the pharmacy. Hurley is driving the car he and his father worked on when he was a child. Kate might be married, which she indeed was in her past. Could this be the thing they are not supposed to "tell?" For specific purposes of entering and leaving the island, I think the discussion of the 20-second to 31-minute ration is important, but time seems much slipperier on the whole.

2 and 3 are not possible. If time was moving at a different rate on and off the island, they would not be able to communicate by radio in real time. Rather, if time on the island was moving at 3/5 of off the island, then Lapidos would hear Regina talking at 5/3 speed, instead of at the normal rate and pitch.

One thing that would make sense to me, is if the island was surrounded by an irregular layer of highly relativistic space-time -- so that when the rocket hit the layer, it's local time was slowed down for the 3 hours it took to penetrate the layer, so that the journey only took 2 hours and 29 minutes (I'd have to check what the exact time was) from the perspective of the rocket.

But we've seen people being on the island younger than they should be (alpert) and older than they should be (walt), so I think it's reasonable to conclude that the bearing you take take in going on or off the island is going to have a huge factor on how you move through both time and space.

But I'll look up what the exact ratios of the time differences are, and the speed of the rocket, and see if the ratios suggest anything more specific.

if the time difference is dependent on the bearing,,,then communication by radio is possible.

the radio wave that reaches the freighter,is the one that took the correct bearing for zero difference

are they using radios or satelite phones? Just wondering, as that could also have an impact on this bearing thing

Does the 31 minute lag help under any theory with the problem of 815 apparently crashing on the island during daytime when it should have been dark? Assuming what the pilot said was true.

I'd just like to interject here that it seem to me that the Oceanic 6 are returning home to their pasts. Jack's father seems to still be alive when he grows his beard, since he is referenced at the hospital and at the pharmacy. Hurley is driving the car he and his father worked on when he was a child. Kate might be married, which she indeed was in her past. Could this be the thing they are not supposed to "tell?" For specific purposes of entering and leaving the island, I think the discussion of the 20-second to 31-minute ration is important, but time seems much slipperier on the whole.

Mmm... I disagree.
Jack said "get my Dad down here, if i'm drunker than he is, you can fire me" - I think that was to show really how drunk and messed up he was. The second reference was at the pharmacy, where Jack presumably wrote himself a prescription using his fathers pad 'o prescription writing ... things ... Hence the reason why he didn't want the pharmacist to call and verify that his father had indeed written it.

Hurley could easily have been driving that car. They showed (When his father returned) that Hurley had fully restored the car while his father was MIA. After Hurley's "death" i'm sure his Mother would have kept some of his things (it's only been three months, after all), a car wouldn't be all that surprising. Or, hell, Hurley's part of the Oceanic 6 and was a millionaire, i'm sure he could find another car.

And I think speculating simply because Kate said "he'll be wondering where I am", that she's married, is a bit far. After seeing Ben and Sayid last night, she could have been talking about Ben, for all we know.

OK, now imagine that the small balloon-universe of the island and the big balloon-universe of the real world naturally exist side by side. Each universe has its own rules and its own time. However, at one very tiny point, the two universes touch. At this special point you can cross between them. And also at this point, the times of the two universes agree. 12:00am, March 1, 2004 on the Island is 12:00am March 1, 2004 in the real world. This is the point of tangency.Ok!Good theory .

But special point are in the time-space coordinates.

If a direction (or a point )is good at a given time, will be wrong at another time (the point in 4 dimension is changed).
How can Ben or Dan indicate a fixed direction to escape from the island?
The right direction that chopper do to arrive to island is different to escape from the island because time is changed and so the point of intersection

ok, these time lag theories give me a headache but, as speculated in another thread, could this time diference allow those on the island, more specifically in the Looking Glass station, observe outside events and act on them? For instance, I see the Red sox win the championship, take a phone, call a bookie, tell him to bet on the Sox and win a bunch? could that be possible? THe island would, then, be a most interesting observation post indeed.

I'd just like to interject here that it seem to me that the Oceanic 6 are returning home to their pasts. Jack's father seems to still be alive when he grows his beard, since he is referenced at the hospital and at the pharmacy. Hurley is driving the car he and his father worked on when he was a child. Kate might be married, which she indeed was in her past. Could this be the thing they are not supposed to "tell?" For specific purposes of entering and leaving the island, I think the discussion of the 20-second to 31-minute ration is important, but time seems much slipperier on the whole.

Mmm... I disagree.
Jack said "get my Dad down here, if i'm drunker than he is, you can fire me" - I think that was to show really how drunk and messed up he was. The second reference was at the pharmacy, where Jack presumably wrote himself a prescription using his fathers pad 'o prescription writing ... things ... Hence the reason why he didn't want the pharmacist to call and verify that his father had indeed written it.

Hurley could easily have been driving that car. They showed (When his father returned) that Hurley had fully restored the car while his father was MIA. After Hurley's "death" i'm sure his Mother would have kept some of his things (it's only been three months, after all), a car wouldn't be all that surprising. Or, hell, Hurley's part of the Oceanic 6 and was a millionaire, i'm sure he could find another car.

And I think speculating simply because Kate said "he'll be wondering where I am", that she's married, is a bit far. After seeing Ben and Sayid last night, she could have been talking about Ben, for all we know.

Yep, that too, and one more thing. They all arrived back AFTER the plane crashed, otherwise there wouldn't be any Oceanic 6. Unless they staged their arrival some years after they really arrived. LOL

Lost = headache. :wacko:

ok, these time lag theories give me a headache but, as speculated in another thread, could this time diference allow those on the island, more specifically in the Looking Glass station, observe outside events and act on them? For instance, I see the Red sox win the championship, take a phone, call a bookie, tell him to bet on the Sox and win a bunch? could that be possible? THe island would, then, be a most interesting observation post indeed.

No, I don't think it works that way.
That means that they're out of "our time" all together.

The Sox win in the real world, and real time - For anyone on the Island to be able to "bet on it" it would have 1) Already have to have happened (to know what the outcome would be) and 2) Then move BACK (or just "out") of time to before the game to place the bet.
While TPTB have stated that Des did time travel, I really don't think they can do it that whimsically to make some money.

:cnfused1: sheesh, now you really lost me... oh,boy, I do hope the authors find a very very simple explanation...

First, I'm speaking from the belief in the "same time" theory, with island and "real world" time moving at the same rate, and the barrier in between causing the distortion.

There are so many posts floating around on this subject that I'm not sure if anyone has discussed the possibility that the rate at which time moves for any object crossing the barrier/field surrounding the island is impacted by the time spent within the barrier/field. In other words, the rocket was moving very rapidly (as are crashing planes, etc.) and was impacted minimally in terms of time (31 minutes off or whatever), whereas Desmond sailed around in the barrier for 2 weeks. I'm guessing he actually aged a couple of years during that time. Likewise, I believe (and have no knowledge of any spoilers on the subject) that Walt's growth is explained by the time spent within the barrier.

How this relates to following exact coordinates, I can't say. I simply think Michael and Walt, for reasons yet undisclosed, strayed from the 325 coordinates and spent enough time in the barrier/field to age roughly 4 or 5 years or something. This will be most noticeable on Walt.

Just my two cents.

Latino Ghost has just posted an awesome *diagram* to help explain things:

http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/5407/lostsnowglobepc2.jpg

The diagram accompanies a post in theories, where LG explains it:

http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=88894

Our theories don't quite agree on all the details, but we've got the same general concept.

So glad I'm reading Stephen Hawking's Theory of Everything right now, or my brain would have truly just melted. Love it. Thanks.

Latino Ghost has just posted an awesome *diagram* to help explain things:

http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/5407/lostsnowglobepc2.jpg

The diagram accompanies a post in theories, where LG explains it:


Great diagram, very explicit. But according to this, when Desmond crashed with his boat, he went through the thick of it...

And what about the bearings Ben gave to Michael?

Well, from my perspective, me and LG don't agree about everything.... so my explanation of what happened to Desmond may not be the same as his.

According to my theory (see OP) Desmond travelled in a direction where he didn't cross the "common wall" between the real world and the island. Under that scenario, he's going to end up where he started -- like going through the tunnel in Ms. Pac Man. Hitting "the common wall" is totally different though. That's like going to a new level in Ms. Pac Man. Except the level is suddenly Donkey Kong.

As far as the bearings Ben gave Michael, they were the specific bearings he needed to hit the common wall, so what happened to Desmond wouldn't happen to him. Or, they were specific bearings he needed to miss the common wall, so what happened to Desmond *would* happen to him. But that's not a time differential question. That's a "How big a jerk is Ben?" question :biggrin:

Well, from my perspective, me and LG don't agree about everything.... so my explanation of what happened to Desmond may not be the same as his.

According to my theory (see OP) Desmond travelled in a direction where he didn't cross the "common wall" between the real world and the island. Under that scenario, he's going to end up where he started -- like going through the tunnel in Ms. Pac Man. Hitting "the common wall" is totally different though. That's like going to a new level in Ms. Pac Man. Except the level is suddenly Donkey Kong.

Hon, you lost me at the first Pac Man :biggrin: But for some reason I was under the impression that you were talking about Desmond's second journey around the island. I was talking about the first- when he arrived, washed to shore and was picked up - by a lucky(?) coincidence(?) - by good man Inman.

In other words. doesn't that thick wall of time twarth surround the island? All around?

the simple answer to this is Einstein's theory of time dilation.

a good explanation of this theory can be found here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravitational_time_dilation

It based o nthe idea that if you travel faster than the speed of light, you age slower (as in time travels slower). it has already been proven with a similar experiemnt seen on the show but the difference was only a few miliseconds or something. soz if this has already been mentioned but i dont have the time to read ever post so far

the simple answer to this is Einstein's theory of time dilation.

a good explanation of this theory can be found here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravitational_time_dilation

It based o nthe idea that if you travel faster than the speed of light, you age slower (as in time travels slower). it has already been proven with a similar experiemnt seen on the show but the difference was only a few miliseconds or something. soz if this has already been mentioned but i dont have the time to read ever post so far

Thanks for this link, very useful. What captured my attention was this:


Gravitational time dilation is the effect of time passing at different rates in regions of different gravitational potential; the higher the local distortion of spacetime due to gravity, the slower time passes.


Now I understand that this happens at lightspeed, but I believe we can rule out the possiblity that the island is travelling at the speed of light. The question is, can it be produced by something else?

Hon, you lost me at the first Pac Man :biggrin: But for some reason I was under the impression that you were talking about Desmond's second journey around the island. I was talking about the first- when he arrived, washed to shore and was picked up - by a lucky(?) coincidence(?) - by good man Inman.

In other words. doesn't that thick wall of time twarth surround the island? All around?
Well like both CSStolkein and I agree on, there seems to be certain parts of the field that are weaker than others, hence why Frank was able to enter the island and is now able to leave it, taking a set bearing that Daniel was sure to remind him to take again. I suppose both Rousseau and Desmond got "lucky" and entered through that small corridor(s) to reach the island, cause once you're in, you're going to have one heck of a time trying to get out.

Well like both CSStolkein and I agree on, there seems to be certain parts of the field that are weaker than others, hence why Frank was able to enter the island and is now able to leave it, taking a set bearing that Daniel was sure to remind him to take again. I suppose both Rousseau and Desmond got "lucky" and entered through that small corridor(s) to reach the island, cause once you're in, you're going to have one heck of a time trying to get out.


Ok, that makes sense. Although, Frank is flying and wouldn't it get easier upwards when it gets thinner on your diagram? ;)

The real quesion is, what's causing it? Or: what is the island?

Thanks for this link, very useful. What captured my attention was this:



Now I understand that this happens at lightspeed, but I believe we can rule out the possiblity that the island is travelling at the speed of light. The question is, can it be produced by something else?

You mean like a massive gravitational force with unusual electromagnetic properties [that can be discharged every 108 minutes via computer]? :)

Ok, that makes sense. Although, Frank is flying and wouldn't it get easier upwards when it gets thinner on your diagram? ;)

The real quesion is, what's causing it? Or: what is the island?

Well Helicopters usually travel around at an altitude of 500 - 2,000ft and a plane usually around 8,000 - 10,000ft so assuming the "snowglobe" is big enough to to reach that high, then for Frank to fly all the way to the top of the globe to try and go above it would seem kinda pointless if they already know a corridor through it, though thats assuming they would even know about the weaker part of the snowglobe being at the top heh.

if the time difference is dependent on the bearing,,,then communication by radio is possible.

the radio wave that reaches the freighter,is the one that took the correct bearing for zero difference
But there can't be a time speed difference between the island and the outside world that is affected by bearing, as that would imply that every location in the outside world has a different rate of time. The only thing that is consistent with it being bearing-sensitive, is if the differences are only in the boundary layer, and not on the island itself. Regardless of the radio waves, the fact that they hear the other person speaking in normal speed proves that time is moving the same rate on the island and on the boat (or wherever the rocket was fired from). The rocket experiment suggests that there was some time disturbance somewhere between the two.

You mean like a massive gravitational force with unusual electromagnetic properties [that can be discharged every 108 minutes via computer]? :)

Massive gravitational force would mean they couldn't move off the earth. They never hinted anything of the sort. The island doesn't have massive gravity. It had an electromagnet, and it imploded. Is there any electromagnetic activity left? I don't know... but not life-threatening because they don't have the computer anymore to discharge it, and they are still there...

Latino Ghost has just posted an awesome *diagram* to help explain things:

http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/5407/lostsnowglobepc2.jpg

The problem with that diagram is that it makes the time[/space] disturbance conditional on the vertical angle of approach, while the show makes it pretty clear that it is dependent on the bearing, or horizontal angle of approach.

Hon, you lost me at the first Pac Man :biggrin: But for some reason I was under the impression that you were talking about Desmond's second journey around the island. I was talking about the first- when he arrived, washed to shore and was picked up - by a lucky(?) coincidence(?) - by good man Inman.

I'm sorry, Lea. I thought you were talking about Desmond's second boat trip. I've assumed that's the one the diagram refers to, too. Since after that trip is when Desmond introduces the idea of a "snowglobe"

http://youtube.com/watch?v=qADHgcNl5XM

I haven't really got my head around the circumstances of Desmonds first arrival, I need to bone up on it.

In other words. doesn't that thick wall of time twarth surround the island? All around?

Short answer is "No".... This is hard to explain, I tried to tackle it in OP. Basically, there's a very tiny point where you can cross with *no* time dilation. Think of it as about the size of a garage door. There's a much bigger area surrounding the garage door where you can cross *with* time dilation. Think of it about the size of a parking lot. If you cross by driving through the parking lot, you will experience more time dilation the further you are away from the garage door.

If you try to cross, but your path doesn't take you in a direction that intersects the parking lot, you will keep going until you wind up where you started.

I'm sorry, Lea. I thought you were talking about Desmond's second boat trip. I've assumed that's the one the diagram refers to, too. Since after that trip is when Desmond introduces the idea of a "snowglobe"

http://youtube.com/watch?v=qADHgcNl5XM

I haven't really got my head around the circumstances of Desmonds first arrival, I need to bone up on it.

I thought so. No matter, I'm up to any further explanation ;)


Short answer is "No".... This is hard to explain, I tried to tackle it in OP. Basically, there's a very tiny point where you can cross with *no* time dilation. Think of it as about the size of a garage door. There's a much bigger area surrounding the garage door where you can cross *with* time dilation. Think of it about the size of a parking lot. If you cross by driving through the parking lot, you will experience more time dilation the further you are away from the garage door.

If you try to cross, but your path doesn't take you in a direction that intersects the parking lot, you will keep going until you wind up where you started.

Well, this might be the explanation. Desmond (and Danielle) got "lucky", they hit the doorway with more or less precision...

Now, question. Is this in any relation with the above mentioned "gravitational time dilation"? That one sounds like it has a source and the effect disperses around it. In your theory it is more like a shield around the island... and then, what's causing it?

Well, the plane crashed at September 22. The same date is explicitly shown on the failure log of Pearl station. At least at this day the island's time and the outside world's time has been synchronous.

Later on Ben tells Jack about the death of Christopher Reeve and shows the World Series Finale on a TV screen. The big deal here is, that he tells him the exact date:"Your flight crashed on September 22nd, 2004. Today is November 29th. That means you've been on our island for 69 days. ... "

I don't think there is any time gap at all.

The problem with that diagram is that it makes the time[/space] disturbance conditional on the vertical angle of approach, while the show makes it pretty clear that it is dependent on the bearing, or horizontal angle of approach.

Yes, Pythagoras, I agree. But first, let's emphasize The Great Thing About The Diagram:

The diagram illustrates that the amount of time dilation experienced is determined by where you cross the border between the island and the real world.

The border is a membrane, like a lens, that's thicker on the outside and then in the middle. If you cross in the very thinnest part, you have unnoticeable time dilation. If you cross in the thick part, you have great time dilation.

I kinda started this thread because everybody is trying to work out how far "ahead" the real world is based on the discrepency between Faraday's clock and the clock on the Rocket. Faraday's clock tells us nothing about that.

But, one thing the variable ratio time theory tells us is that Annie at age 20, could have crossed the border at a "bad place" in the vortex, and instead of arriving the real world in 1980, she would've arrived in 2000. Although, from her perspective, the journey would have seem instantaneous (she wouldn't have aged).

She then could have lived in the real world for five years under the assumed identity Charlotte Staples Lewis. Then crossed *back* to the island with the rest of the Freighties at the "sweet spot" in the vortex when their is no time dilation.

If she was on the side of Dharma and not Ben -- Why she left the island, maybe? -- that would explain why Ben freaked out and immediately tried to plug two in her chest.

It would also fit in nicely with her Narnia parallel, because from her perspective not much time has passed, but lots of time has passed on the island -- just like Narnia.

Once you understand how the time membrane works, the fun part begins and you can start spitballing plot theories. Which thankfully have nothing to do with Richard "Magic Eyeliner" Alpert. Sorry, personal pet peeve. :biggrin:

Per http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_dilation

In Albert Einstein's theories of relativity time dilation is manifested in two circumstances:

* In special relativity, clocks that are moving with respect to an inertial system of observation are measured to be running slower. This effect is described precisely by the Lorentz transformation.

* In general relativity, clocks at lower potentials in a gravitational field — such as in proximity to a planet — are found to be running slower. This gravitational time dilation is only briefly mentioned in this article; see that article (and also gravitational red shift) for a more detailed discussion.

* In special relativity, the time dilation effect is reciprocal: as observed from the point of view of any two clocks which are in motion with respect to each other, it will be the other party's clock that is time dilated. (This presumes that the relative motion of both parties is uniform; that is, they do not accelerate with respect to one another during the course of the observations.)

* In contrast, gravitational time dilation (as treated in general relativity) is not reciprocal: an observer at the top of a tower will observe that clocks at ground level tick slower, and observers on the ground will agree. Thus gravitational time dilation is agreed upon by all observers, independent of their altitude.

I haven't seen many/any posts talking about the TWO DIFFERENT CIRCUMSTANCES that can give rise to time dilation - one via relative motion (proved by special relativity) and one via gravity (proved by general relativity).

If we assume that the clocks were synchronized at launch (which is at least implied), then there is time dilation.

BUT, IMO, we still don't have enough information to pick how that time dilation occurs.

Gravitational time dilation could be used in the snow-globe theory, assuming the "shield material" or the island itself has certain gravitational densities significantly higher or lower than at earth's surface. At the same time, the "portal" could be a wormhole, and it could simply be that one end of the wormhole (Lost island or real-world) is has moved relative to the other at some significant fraction of the speed of light, and then been brought back (time dilation via special relativity). See time travel discussion here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wormhole

In the latter case, Lost-island side of the wormhole would have to have been moving at a very high velocity at some point, and then brought back to "normal" speed (or doing this periodically).

What we don't know IS important: the time on both clocks when the experiment started.

I'd just like to interject here that it seem to me that the Oceanic 6 are returning home to their pasts. Jack's father seems to still be alive when he grows his beard, since he is referenced at the hospital and at the pharmacy. Hurley is driving the car he and his father worked on when he was a child. Kate might be married, which she indeed was in her past. Could this be the thing they are not supposed to "tell?" For specific purposes of entering and leaving the island, I think the discussion of the 20-second to 31-minute ration is important, but time seems much slipperier on the whole.

Great theory!

I'd just like to interject here that it seem to me that the Oceanic 6 are returning home to their pasts. Jack's father seems to still be alive when he grows his beard, since he is referenced at the hospital and at the pharmacy. Hurley is driving the car he and his father worked on when he was a child. Kate might be married, which she indeed was in her past. Could this be the thing they are not supposed to "tell?" For specific purposes of entering and leaving the island, I think the discussion of the 20-second to 31-minute ration is important, but time seems much slipperier on the whole.

Wow, very interesting..... would also explain why Kate isn't a wanted fugitive....

But then how do they move the date of the crash forward? Sayid says he received a settlement, they have Oceanic "gold passes" and are global celebrities. So they had to be from *some* kind of plane crash. Newscaster in Confirmed Dead says crash was on Sept. 22., 2004.

Course we also know from the ep that the crash they found isn't the actual plane that crashed. I like this theory, actually, but I think it's going to require some neat tricks to pull off (which is to say, strikes me as entirely w/in realm of possibility).
100%
IMO, we still don't have enough infomation to pick between 1, 2 or 3.

Also, not to completely fry everybody's brains, but #3 doesn't necessisarily rule out #1 or #2 (though they rule out each other)

We could have a vortex between worlds, where, if you cross it in the wrong place, it sends you into the future. AND time on the island could move at a different speed than in the real world.

:biggrin:

Yay, first post!
The one thing that doesn't make sense is that the rocket didn't arrive when it should have! If there were a difference between how fast the island time and the real world time went by they could have perfectly shown us that by the two clocks alone. The delay of the rocket, however, adds some other effect.
So for the sake of simplicity I'm going to assume that the cause of the delay of the rocket is also the cause of the different clock readings.
Also the time difference would only be a factor of about 1.2 (assuming the clocks are timers which I don't find very plausible) and about 1.05 assuming the clocks are clocks and were synced about 10 hours ago when the helo left (it can't be much less because it landed at night and now it's afternoon... if it's more than ten hours the effect gets even weaker).

So there's two possible scenarios..
1. I'm wrong. The clocks are timers afterall and there is one effect that causes the delay of the rocket (20 seconds become 2+ hours) and another effect that causes the different clock readings.
2. IT and RWT are the same and the rocket got lost causing the delay and the time difference.

Hmm... maybe we're reading way, way too much into this. :)
The rocket for instance would have travelled at an implausible speed of almost Mach 6!!! So why would an explanation for something else make more sense?

I have no idea how this whole time differential thing is going to be explained, but it just dawned on me how great it could be used as a plot device. We already saw the gas masks the freighters brought with them and the accuracy with which the freighter can launch rockets. I could see an episode in the future when our islanders are alerted (by Ben's 'man' on the boat?) that the freighter has launched a rocket or rockets weaponized with some type of lethal gas/virus. The losties & others realize they have exactly 31 minutes to figure out how to get themselves safe or they're all dead. The tension, action and conclusion to that scenario could make one of the greatest Lost episodes ever.

could this time diference allow those on the island, more specifically in the Looking Glass station, observe outside events and act on them? For instance, I see the Red sox win the championship, take a phone, call a bookie, tell him to bet on the Sox and win a bunch? could that be possible? THe island would, then, be a most interesting observation post indeed.

I've always thought this is what the Flame was all about, and the reason the island is so valuable/important to the power player. The Flame was comm central for observing the outside world, and also for receiving and transmitting info - relayed via the Looking Glass - to the power player.
Ben was maintaining the facade of working for the power player, and now we know he was also skimming money on the side. Probably not many Others knew about this. Patchy did, certainly, and Juliet eventually found out.

The Swan, imo, was artificially kept on real world time. I'm not sure for what purpose, but when Locke blew it and the sky turned purple, the Swan and environs were essentially transported into the same time as the rest of the island..
100%
Yay, first post!
The one thing that doesn't make sense is that the rocket didn't arrive when it should have! If there were a difference between how fast the island time and the real world time went by they could have perfectly shown us that by the two clocks alone. The delay of the rocket, however, adds some other effect.
So for the sake of simplicity I'm going to assume that the cause of the delay of the rocket is also the cause of the different clock readings.

Welcome! Excellent point. We really don't have enough pieces yet, do we?

I have no idea how this whole time differential thing is going to be explained, but it just dawned on me how great it could be used as a plot device. We already saw the gas masks the freighters brought with them and the accuracy with which the freighter can launch rockets. I could see an episode in the future when our islanders are alerted (by Ben's 'man' on the boat?) that the freighter has launched a rocket or rockets weaponized with some type of lethal gas/virus. The losties & others realize they have exactly 31 minutes to figure out how to get themselves safe or they're all dead. The tension, action and conclusion to that scenario could make one of the greatest Lost episodes ever.

That sounds very probable.

I think 20 seconds of 3.16.23 is the 20 seconds that the rocket should've got to the Island. After 20 seconds somehow the rocket entered into a an area with different time speed (may be more than one) and later there was period of equal speed between two timers. And all the while, Island timer run on a stable time speed. Daniel I think will make a lot of calculations considering the time difference, the distance the rocket took etc. but I'm sure the writers will not let him explain his findings.

Thanks for this link, very useful. What captured my attention was this:



Now I understand that this happens at lightspeed, but I believe we can rule out the possiblity that the island is travelling at the speed of light. The question is, can it be produced by something else?

Maybe a Particle Accelerator that rings the island interacting with vast quantities of magnetic rock produced from a volcano?

I think the rocket not landing when Faraday and the Freighter expected it to, indicates the rocket travelled further than expected. To me this indicates it travelled some distance through a wormhole.

I don't think it got caught up in a "shell/globe" of material, because the Freighter seemed to indicate it's instruments showed it arriving after 20 seconds.

1). Fixed Lag: The island is a constant 31-minutes-and-change behind the real world, and it always will be.

Isn't the island 31 minutes ahead of the real world?

The clock on the rocket showed 3:16 and the one one the island showed 2:45

No proof of 'slowtime' I'm afraid, like said in the other thread:


We don't have confirmation that time moves differently anywhere. What we saw were two clocks with different times on them which people are assuming were set at the same time.

What if they weren't?

What if it was a show put on for Jack's benefit?

What if it was a show put on for Jack's benefit?

Why would Jack suspect that there was a time anomaly? How would he deduce what Dan was measuring?

It wasn't a show.

I think the rocket not landing when Faraday and the Freighter expected it to, indicates the rocket travelled further than expected. To me this indicates it travelled some distance through a wormhole.

I don't think it got caught up in a "shell/globe" of material, because the Freighter seemed to indicate it's instruments showed it arriving after 20 seconds.

The rocket was going about 2.5 km/s judging by the time that went by and Regina's announcement of distance left to the target. That's around 9000 km/h, travelling for about 3 hours...that's a lot of distance! It would seem to indicate more of a difference in time frame relations rather than a space between the island and the real world being 27000+ km.

A brilliant lucid theory CSS, but there are two RW issues here. 1) At the start of it all, Damon, JJ and Jeffrey had to pitch this idea to ABC execs. Given that scholars of all kinds are posting to these boards and are struggling to piece this together, is it really possible that college dropout, pension baby execs would have connected the dots and greenlighted a project with this layer of complexity (especially in the days of Eisner) and even if they did 2) How the heck are the writers ever going to work this into the story so it makes sense for the rest of the planet? Not saying your theory doesn't hold up, just pointing out that it is very unlikely.

CSSTolkien and LG should receive the Nobel Prize in SciFi for this joint discovery. Here's what it seems to explain for me:

1.) When Desmond journeys around the island on his boat he faces a continual wall of major time distortion. When he gives up and returns he has flashback, flashforward capabilities, yet he's unable to stop the death of Charlie, proving that the past can't be changed on the island.

2.) The greatest time distortion occurs at sea level according to this theory. But since the theory involves not only time, but also physical location, the greatest distortion in physical location can also occur at sea level. So the polar bear in Tunisia would make sense; the plane from Nigeria, if flown low; the hot air balloon; Desmond's boat journey from the U.S. Maybe there's a physical place on the island where there is no time difference between universes, just location distortion. This then could be a secret portal where Ben is able to exploit physical location distortion.

3.) The island does not belong to Earth's universe. Therefore the writers can develop a complex mythology, which I think is the best part of the show.

A brilliant lucid theory CSS, but there are two RW issues here. 1) At the start of it all, Damon, JJ and Jeffrey had to pitch this idea to ABC execs. Given that scholars of all kinds are posting to these boards and are struggling to piece this together, is it really possible that college dropout, pension baby execs would have connected the dots and greenlighted a project with this layer of complexity (especially in the days of Eisner) and even if they did 2) How the heck are the writers ever going to work this into the story so it makes sense for the rest of the planet? Not saying your theory doesn't hold up, just pointing out that it is very unlikely.

1) I'd say after the success of Alias, ABC was willing to give JJ a bit of latitude.

2) I don't think they are going to try to explain everything in the last episode. I think, as always, more and more answers will come, and finally the questions will just stop coming, leaving the biggest and most long-standing questions to be dealt with at the end. But it looks like with the inclusion of Daniel, they intend to tackle a healthy portion of the science side this season, or maybe just set it up for next season. And even the most difficult ideas can be simplified to the lowest common denominator by allowing Sawyer to play red...neck....man and say "Just hold on Einstein, explain that in cave man terms". With an ensemble cast, it gives them a lot of leeway to explain things in as much or as little detail as needed to convey the idea.

Thanks to enigma420 (http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/member.php?u=59303) for this thought here :)... I think I've got it!!!

Now, you wrote this:
The rocket was going about 2.5 km/s judging by the time that went by and Regina's announcement of distance left to the target. That's around 9000 km/h, travelling for about 3 hours...that's a lot of distance! It would seem to indicate more of a difference in time frame relations rather than a space between the island and the real world being 27000+ km.You were assuming that the rocket actually travelled the distance of 40 km in the time of 20 seconds like Regina said. BUT due to relativistic effects the rocket would travel a much smaller distance from its own perspective!

So, I'm going to guess that the rocket travels at a much more reasonable speed of Mach 0.5 - that's roughly 170 m/s. From Regina we know that the rocket flew for about 20 seconds. That means it actually only travelled for 3.4 km !!! We now know the distance of 40 km from boat to island appeared to the rocket as only 3.4 km. Which means that the relativistic gamma is 85 - meaning the actual distance is 85 times greater than the rocket experiences!
That also means that that is the same factor by which time is slowed for the rocket from the islands perspective. 20 s times 85 = 1700 seconds = 28 minutes!!! Isn't that awfully close to 31 minutes??

Explains everything... as House would say.
Tada

Ok... one more time. All these are relatiistic effects. Special relativity. Look it up!
*the rocket gets launched from the boat. Because of relativity the rocket sees the 40 km as 3.4 km. So the rocket experiences length constraction.
*Seen from the island the rocket actually has to travel the whole 40 km. But it only flies at about Mach 0.5 which makes it take so long.

Now my head hurts.

That also means that that is the same factor by which time is slowed for the rocket from the islands perspective. 20 s times 85 = 1700 seconds = 28 minutes!!! Isn't that awfully close to 31 minutes??


Except the timers said the exact opposite. If what you are suggesting were true, the rocket clock would have advanced less (since less time passed during the trip from its perspective), and would have been behind Daniel's timer.

CSSTolkien said:
1). Fixed Lag: The island is a constant 31-minutes-and-change behind the real world, and it always will be. If it's noon on the island, it's 12:31:19pm in the real world. Wow, I accidentally emoticonned there. :eek2: That's twelve-thirty-one-nineteen for you.

2) Fixed Ratio Lag: A year on the island is equivalent to some fraction of a year in the real world. If an island year is 3/5 of a regular year, in 15 years the island will be 10 years further behind the real world. In 24 years, the island will be 16 years further behind. Or some other constant ratio (most comparable to the Narnia scenario).

3). Variable Ratio Lag: The amount of time the island is behind the real world depends.

I was kind of gravitating towards #3 as well, but the problem I have is if the coordinates you enter/exit the island from represents a unique and specific time vector, then it is highly unlikely that anyone entering the island separately would end up on the island at the same time.

When the Losties plane crashed, it is highly unlikely that they would have fallen through the precise coordinates that the others used to get Juliet there or that Desmond used to get there or that Eko used to get there, etc.

So maybe all inbound coordinates (wrt the island) lead to the same place, but you better make sure you hit the right outbound coordinate or you might not end up where you want to be.

Just wanted to remind everyone that the diagram I made to go along with my theory for the snowglobe is in no way absolute, it was just a guestimate on how the snowglobe may appear, so i created another diagram to illustrate the other possible snowglobes since we can't really say with certainty that any one snowglobe theory is the end all be all theory until we've seen more evidence from the show:

http://img169.imageshack.us/img169/7963/lostsnowglobesdk5.jpg

A. is closer to what I had originally imagined it to look, but it doesn't always work if the snowglobe has uniformity to it. B. is I think closer to what CSSTolkein theorised where there is one specific point in the snowglobe where the time dilation gets weaker. C. is more random, it gives more possible entry points for the many people who've landed on the island. Some people came in through the air, some people came in through the sea, and some from underneath it. This one makes more sense to me, because it's mostly red, meaning only smaller more precise corridors in the snowglobe provide safe passage, so there probably is only a couple or so safe passageways known to the Frieghties and Others which is why beacons, bearings and what not are so important to them to remember.

Okay, this is all very interesting. I have to say I like the idea of time moving at a different rate on the island than it does in the outside world, even if they can't really explain HOW so that every viewer will understand it. An appreciation for science fiction doesn't necessarily require an understanding of the science.

So it just seems to me that the simple concept of time moving slower on the island than in the outside world can be nothing more than a plot device. I can accept it without some of the explanations I've read here being presented in the show. Remember, the Dharma Initiative sent scientists and researchers to the island to study its "unique properties." For all we know, no one has ever been able to explain how or why things happen the way they do on the island. In fact, if they try too hard to explain the physics, I think they run the risk of disappointing a lot of viewers who watch the TV SHOW for ENTERTAINMENT.

I loved the show Alias. But that doesn't mean I have to believe that Malibu Barbie would make a top-notch, kick-*** double agent that can sit in a secret black-ops underground conference room one minute and then suddenly be "on mission" in Rio or Paris or Hong Kong the next. It's just good TV.

I don't believe that <time is moving slower on the island> is really an option. I mean, beside the fact that they can talk in real time on the phone, they counted down the 20 seconds together. The 20 seconds took 20 seconds for each side. There is no need for further proof.

Whatever happens, it happens only when crossing the "barrier".


ETA And actually it is a very good point that the clock on the rocket was 31 min forward, not behind. Now, accepting the idea that time flows the same way in or out the island, the two clocks were showing the same time in the moment of launch. The flight took a lot longer seen from the island, but it took even more seen from the rocket! The weirdest thing still was that their detectors showed that it arrived after 20 seconds. That part is the weirdest of all, because they were still talking live through the phone, they were in the same timeline.

I don't believe that <time is moving slower on the island> is really an option. I mean, beside the fact that they can talk in real time on the phone, they counted down the 20 seconds together. The 20 seconds took 20 seconds for each side. There is no need for further proof.

Whatever happens, it happens only when crossing the "barrier".


ETA And actually it is a very good point that the clock on the rocket was 31 min forward, not behind. Now, accepting the idea that time flows the same way in or out the island, the two clocks were showing the same time in the moment of launch. The flight took a lot longer seen from the island, but it took even more seen from the rocket! The weirdest thing still was that their detectors showed that it arrived after 20 seconds. That part is the weirdest of all, because they were still talking live through the phone, they were in the same timeline.

I've been saying that all along.

Because they can talk in real time discounts most of the time theories.

That they were talking live during the rocket's flight can only mean one thing: that the barrier only delays time.

Or that it does not delay time but holds objects in a state of suspended animation. In such a state, I imagine it would reek chaos for a human being's internal organs, but not for an inanimate object.

Of course, the fact that radio transmissions can get through the barrier in real time, only confirms Carter's Law of Electro-Pseudo-Magnetic-Retro-Interference.

Or that it does not delay time but holds objects in a state of suspended animation. In such a state, I imagine it would reek chaos for a human being's internal organs, but not for an inanimate object.

Yes, I think I like this version better. But Walt seems to be fine. I think this is how they're going to explain his growth so obviously, his internal organs appear to be fine.

NUTS to all of it.

Why doesn't Daniel just phone Regina and ask her what the time is on the freighter? That'd tell him everything he'd need to know.

Yes some of the above posters are right, it is to do with the barrier, and the barrier only.

There are so many theories on the Internet about how Island time is moving like years slower than real-life time, and quite frankly, there are so many moments in the show that discount this.

It's just not the case, it's not true, never has been, never will be. These theorists just can not let it go.

The 31 minute time lag is referring to the missile launched, and only the missile launched at this point. Anything further is assumption, however i'd like to assume, that it ties into why the helicopter went crazy upon entering the island's atmosphere, why the plane crashed, why most things crash upon arrival etc.

NUTS to all of it.

Why doesn't Daniel just phone Regina and ask her what the time is on the freighter? That'd tell him everything he'd need to know.

Actually, no. It would just tell him what time her clock said versus his. Not the speed of travel to the island, then length of time it takes to get there, etc.

One thing I'm confused about - how does Faraday know that following different trajectories would cause different outcomes? Unless he's run multiple tests at different entry points, he wouldn't know that, would he?

Why doesn't Daniel just phone Regina and ask her what the time is on the freighter? That'd tell him everything he'd need to know.

He SHOULD have asked this, you're right. But the movement through space is apparently a big part of the picture, so the experiment was necessary (and obviously preplanned).
100%
One thing I'm confused about - how does Faraday know that following different trajectories would cause different outcomes? Unless he's run multiple tests at different entry points, he wouldn't know that, would he?
At this point, it's hypothesis for uber-scientist Daniel, but one strong enough to justify a warning..

I think the big problem is people are seeing this ONE single phenomenon when it seems to be many

Desmond went back in time by many years. He also sees future event probabilities

The bunny in Orchid went back 9 minutes

The rocket went back 30 minutes(depending on your perspective)

We have to acknowledge that the very format of the show--which has only passed about 3 months of time gives most of us the "feeling" that time moves slower on the island. But maybe it should be looked at another way

That the Island, whether by itself, or by Dharma experiments, has anomilies all over it that can shift Time. It doesnt have to be a single time lag. The bunny was sent through a wormhole that calculated 9 mintues. Other wormholes are different

The rocket passes through the wormhole. Theoretically, wormholes can warp spacetime, so I dont think we should assume any specific time difference for everything else.

BTW..the Universe is thought to be Flat..not like a ballon, cone or saddle.

I tend to agree with this too although I don't think there's really any way to be sure at this point from the limited amount of data we have since either explanation (time difference or lost time) works to explain what we know now. I tend towards the latter just because of the whole "compass bearing" issue.

This is what I think too. Whilst the whole Proof! thread is interesting it seems to be straying somewhat IMHO. And besides, LOST time = Mittelos.

Massive gravitational force would mean they couldn't move off the earth. They never hinted anything of the sort. The island doesn't have massive gravity. It had an electromagnet, and it imploded. Is there any electromagnetic activity left? I don't know... but not life-threatening because they don't have the computer anymore to discharge it, and they are still there...

My apologies - I was being a bit tongue-in-cheek there, making a slight joke that didn't quite come off the way I'd intended. Sorry!

I think the big problem is people are seeing this ONE single phenomenon when it seems to be many

Desmond went back in time by many years. He also sees future event probabilities

The bunny in Orchid went back 9 minutes

The rocket went back 30 minutes(depending on your perspective)

We have to acknowledge that the very format of the show--which has only passed about 3 months of time gives most of us the "feeling" that time moves slower on the island. But maybe it should be looked at another way

That the Island, whether by itself, or by Dharma experiments, has anomilies all over it that can shift Time. It doesnt have to be a single time lag. The bunny was sent through a wormhole that calculated 9 mintues. Other wormholes are different

The rocket passes through the wormhole. Theoretically, wormholes can warp spacetime, so I dont think we should assume any specific time difference for everything else.

You know, I don't disagree that there are multiple oddities at work that may be playing with each other. At the same time, "The Powers" have made a lot of hay out making the unprecedented step to secure a definite end-date for their show "Because that's what we need to tell the story properly."

That's especially true with a story involving time travel, and that extends to the "flash forward" and "flashback" kind, as well as the sci-fi kind. You start interweaving the past and the present, and if you don't know where you're going to end, and it's a recipe for disaster, narratively speaking. Either you'll solve all your mysteries before the show gets cancelled and have to write Locke jumping Dharma sharks, or you'll write-over your own plot lines and dead people start stepping out of showers.

All this is saying, TPTB are promising us they've built an intricate machine that rewards close attention, so we ought to be able to parse things out. Faraday's rocket scene won't give us all the answers, but the scene is also deliberately constructed with a specific outcome in mind: That's the implicit terms of the contract of willing suspension of disbelief that TPTB has negotiated with the audience.

BTW..the Universe is thought to be Flat..not like a ballon, cone or saddle.

Heresey! I knew it! You're one of them Jaters, aintcha!

One thing I'm confused about - how does Faraday know that following different trajectories would cause different outcomes? Unless he's run multiple tests at different entry points, he wouldn't know that, would he?
At this point, it's hypothesis for uber-scientist Daniel, but one strong enough to justify a warning..Actually, it's a hypothesis from fans. Daniel didn't explain why he gave the warning.