What's with all the hostility between the two groups? Did it not seem a little overblown? The division between the two camps just seemed so sudden, and extreme, almost forced. Weren't Hurley and Sayid high-fiving each other not so long ago on the beach?? Now he doesn't trust him at all, just cuz Sayid stayed with Jack?

Someone give me a reason to believe this wasn't sloppy writing (I hate that I just said that cuz I virtually never feel that way).

JS

I sorta agree. When Hurley said he didn't trust Sayid because of the neck-snap at the beach, I couldn't help but say "but he was protecting you guys!" Sayid wouldn't have harmed Hurley or anyone else. Yes, they disagree on who the Freighters are, but does Team Locke thing they have so quickly joined the Freighters and want to kill Team Locke?

Yeah, its weird. Sure I can understand the animosity between say, Jack and Locke, but it was the very line you mentioned that threw me for a loop. I can understand that people split up, but to suddenly not trust Sayid... I dunno. Seemed rather extreme.

Hey, how can I edit the post title? I screwed it up. I guess it's impossible?

To me, that was part of why this episode was so fascinating. Because of real dangers, stresses and reasons not to trust, they're all letting themselves get run away with paranoia.

I think it's a basic disagreement about how to proceed with the freighties-- cautious engagement on Jack's team vs. total distrust on Locke's part. Since the stakes are so high -- the only shot at escape the losties have had or are likely to have vs. death for all -- both sides are taking a somewhat extreme position. Like Danielle said, it's not personal. I think Locke feels he needs to do whatever is necessary to keep Jack's team from making a fatal mistake.

To me, that was part of why this episode was so fascinating. Because of real dangers, stresses and reasons not to trust, they're all letting themselves get run away with paranoia.

Yeah but then why did Hurley question Locke in the scene before Kate and Sayid found him in the closet? Hurley's acting like Hurley here, he doesn't like the prisoner thing and what Locke is doing, and then BAM!!!! he's playing possum for Locke, who he just questioned. Just didn't make sense, giving us a twist is one thing but lack of continuity is another.

Couldn't this have bascially played out the same way (Sayid getting Charlotte back to the helicopter) without Hurley playing possum?

I find these comments kind of strange, because I really felt like everyone (except Locke) was very casual in their differences. Yes, people had guns. But NOONE was angry with anyone else. Noone yelled or got violent, noone even tried to escape. It was more like, "hey guys, glad your here, ok now we're capturing you, would you like some tea?" Then Locke and Sayid made a friendly deal and everyone was back on their merry way. There really was no hostility whatsoever. Now Locke did get a little uppity with Hurley, but thats becasue Hugo was questioning Locke's actions, and frankly Locke had a right to get uppity, because he IS running that crew.

So where was the hostility?

Y. ...then BAM!!!! he's playing possum for Locke, who he just questioned. Just didn't make sense, giving us a twist is one thing but lack of continuity is another.

Couldn't this have bascially played out the same way (Sayid getting Charlotte back to the helicopter) without Hurley playing possum?

I don't think it's a continuity problem. I think there's just information we have not yet been given. I think the conversation (or situation) that encouraged Hurley to be bait simply hasn't been revealed yet.

The hostility, I feel, is because each group feels the other is preventing them from their goal. Team Locke wants to hide but got found. Team Jack wants to leave but can't because of Team Locke (and Locke did kill Naoimi - in cold blood - who was believed to be there to save them by Team Jack). So, yeah, there's some resentment and mistrust there.

I'm not liking this new dynamic by TPTB. I want ALL my losties on the same team. Unfortunately, I think the divide will only grow more between the Jackies and the Lockesters.

btw, I agree that any time guns are involved, it's admissable to label any situation as possibly "hostile".

I find these comments kind of strange, because I really felt like everyone (except Locke) was very casual in their differences. Yes, people had guns. But NOONE was angry with anyone else. Noone yelled or got violent, noone even tried to escape. It was more like, "hey guys, glad your here, ok now we're capturing you, would you like some tea?" Then Locke and Sayid made a friendly deal and everyone was back on their merry way. There really was no hostility whatsoever. Now Locke did get a little uppity with Hurley, but thats becasue Hugo was questioning Locke's actions, and frankly Locke had a right to get uppity, because he IS running that crew.

So where was the hostility?

They were held at gun point, that's not hostile? The guns were not necessary, this whole scene could have been played out without the guns (and Hurley's trick), as it was when Locke and Sayid ended up talking with the iced tea. And Hurley's comment about Sayid breaking the guy's neck was pretty hostile.

Funny, that Locke is running that group, because many people are questioning him, Hurley, Sawyer, Claire to name a few. But Jack's group, Jack isn't running it, it's a collective effort.

They were held at gun point, that's not hostile? The guns were not necessary, this whole scene could have been played out without the guns (and Hurley's trick), as it was when Locke and Sayid ended up talking with the iced tea. And Hurley's comment about Sayid breaking the guy's neck was pretty hostile.

Funny, that Locke is running that group, because many people are questioning him, Hurley, Sawyer, Claire to name a few. But Jack's group, Jack isn't running it, it's a collective effort.

There isn't a lot of anger between the groups, thats what I mean. The guns were used out of mistrust, the same thing that motivated Hurley's comment. Maybe "hostility" is the proper word, but to me anyhow the word implies intent to do harm, or anger, or something more negative than simple mistrust.

When Sayid and Kate were entering the camp, I did find it strange that they had their guns at the ready. Before the groups split, Locke said, "you know where to find us when you change your minds." It's not as if he said, "you're on your own now - we never want to see you again." I realize that Team Jack is operating under the assumption that Locke has gone a bit crazy (what with killing Naomi and kidnapping Charlotte), but still. Even if Locke is running the show, he's with Hurley, Claire, Sawyer, etc. They had little reason to enter the camp ready to shoot. They may have had a more friendly response if they came in with arms up saying, "We're just here to talk."

In the end, it all worked out so I suppose it's a moot point.

There was plenty of hostility, with little reasoning for it. When Sayid says to Hurley that he is not dangerous, Hurley responds with that comment about Sayid breaking that dude's neck on the beach, as if to say "you are dangerous, and I dont trust you."

What gives?

There was plenty of hostility, with little reasoning for it. When Sayid says to Hurley that he is not dangerous, Hurley responds with that comment about Sayid breaking that dude's neck on the beach, as if to say "you are dangerous, and I dont trust you."

What gives?

I took that to mean that Hurley is afraid Sayid is angry at him for his role in the trap, and he knows Sayid can be lethal. Excessive, as Sayid points out.

why wouldn't there be hostility? whenever there are 2 groups that disagree on something there is bound to be hostility.

why wouldn't there be hostility? whenever there are 2 groups that disagree on something there is bound to be hostility.

Well, there wasn't that much hostility the last time the full group was together. As Linus4prez pointed out, Locke basically invited them over when they changed their minds. There really shouldn't be a need for Locke's team to be hostile, since Jack's group hasn't done anything to change their mind. Now, Locke's team has changed things up a bit to cause some sort of hostility from Sayid and company by kidnapping Charlotte.

Locke, Hurley, Danielle and Sawyer really shouldn't have hostility toward Sayid and Kate or need to resort to tricks. Locke I think is losing it since Jacob doesn't seem to be enamored with him anymore.

Locke, Hurley, Danielle and Sawyer really shouldn't have hostility toward Sayid and Kate or need to resort to tricks. Locke I think is losing it since Jacob doesn't seem to be enamored with him anymore.

I think they needed to resort to tricks. Sayid, and Kate were walking through the house with guns. Why? Hurley tricked them, Locke is taking all precautions. I think that's the smart thing to do. Was Jacob ever enamored with Locke?!! I think Locke was a little mixed up when the cabin wasn't there, but he continued on. Hurley knows that the cabin disappears and reappears. I guess Locke must know now too. Neither of them know why though and I'm looking forward to finding that out.

I think this episode spelled everything out pretty well...

The freighties are hostile toward the Losties because one of them killed Naomi.
The biggest hostility is Jack's for Locke, which is why Sayid told him to stay behind. He's pissed about all the ways Locke has acted to ensure they don't get rescued. Even if it's based on lack of information (we dunno if he blew up the sub, or if he was right to kill Naomi, after all), it's not out of character.
Kate fears Locke because he threw a knife into Naomi's back (frankly, this is the only thing that seems slightly overblown to me...why would Kate give such a s**t about Naomi?), which is why she's nervous about going along.
Sawyer and Danielle questioning Locke was meant to establish that Locke isn't 100% sure of strategy here, that Ben is right about him needing to be told what to do...that, and Sawyer questions everyone.
Hurley questioning Locke was the first foundation of the regret he referred to in ep 1, but it was also a writer's device--if Hurley questions Locke and Locke gets all funky with him, then we think Hurley is really tied up and are surprised along with Sayid and Kate to learn it's a trap.
As for setting the trap, and the guns, Locke and co. knew that if Team Jack came looking they would be coming with one of Charlotte's team, who would be armed. Sawyer said so. It was just being cautious, not hostile, and I thought Locke's apology to Sayid was pretty genuine.The opposition of Locke and Jack has been building since Season 1. This all seems like logical progression to me.

And as for why Locke is the leader...everyone always looks to him for leadership because is is an older father figure, because he posits himself as a leader and implies that he has military experience, and because he seems to be confident about what they should do. Unfortunately he's as confused as everyone else is, so I think that's gonna change pretty quickly. And it'll get ugly when it does.

Not only is there hostility between the groups, what is up with Hurley? That is among the STRANGEST behavior ever demonstrated on the show IMO.

I think this episode spelled everything out pretty well...

The freighties are hostile toward the Losties because one of them killed Naomi.
The biggest hostility is Jack's for Locke, which is why Sayid told him to stay behind. He's pissed about all the ways Locke has acted to ensure they don't get rescued. Even if it's based on lack of information (we dunno if he blew up the sub, or if he was right to kill Naomi, after all), it's not out of character.
Kate fears Locke because he threw a knife into Naomi's back (frankly, this is the only thing that seems slightly overblown to me...why would Kate give such a s**t about Naomi?), which is why she's nervous about going along.
Sawyer and Danielle questioning Locke was meant to establish that Locke isn't 100% sure of strategy here, that Ben is right about him needing to be told what to do...that, and Sawyer questions everyone.
Hurley questioning Locke was the first foundation of the regret he referred to in ep 1, but it was also a writer's device--if Hurley questions Locke and Locke gets all funky with him, then we think Hurley is really tied up and are surprised along with Sayid and Kate to learn it's a trap.
As for setting the trap, and the guns, Locke and co. knew that if Team Jack came looking they would be coming with one of Charlotte's team, who would be armed. Sawyer said so. It was just being cautious, not hostile, and I thought Locke's apology to Sayid was pretty genuine.The opposition of Locke and Jack has been building since Season 1. This all seems like logical progression to me.

And as for why Locke is the leader...everyone always looks to him for leadership because is is an older father figure, because he posits himself as a leader and implies that he has military experience, and because he seems to be confident about what they should do. Unfortunately he's as confused as everyone else is, so I think that's gonna change pretty quickly. And it'll get ugly when it does.

I agree completely. I'd also like to add that these people are running on a lot of intense emotions and adrenaline. They just escaped from an ambush by the Others, were overjoyed at the fact they were about to be rescued, found out their friend died, found out the rescuers may actually be there to kill them, etc. I don't think they are all thinking rationally. Plus, now that the freighter people have arrived, I would say a lot of them on Locke's team are paranoid (and rightfully so). Paranoia definitely causes people to behave in less than rational ways. People don't behave the same way all the time.

I *Loved* the way the tension between the two camps was handled. I don't think it was overblown, I think they got it just right.

The whole thing reminded me of the dawn of the Cold War, in post war Berlin. Where the Russians and the Americans were still technically allies, but they were also immediately eyeing each other for the showdown to come.

I thought the show demonstrated how much deep love and respect there is among the characters... Sayid telling Hurley he's not going to hurt him, Locke bringing iced tea to Sayid and apologizing for the ambush. Sure part of it was usual Locke being wiley, but I also think Locke was genuinely happy and relieved that it was just Sayid and Kate coming to talk, and not a bonafide war party.

Hurley playing possum was huge, demonstrating that he's definitely on board for playing a part in the war. But I thought Kate's initial reaction to Sawyer was equally huge. Even though she genuinely loves Sawyer, her intellectual loyalties are with the Jack Pack. So her immediate instinct when she saw Sawyer was to warn Sayid, despite all his "Smooth Southern Shooshing" (I just trademarked that).

I'm not convinced that Kate staying behind was a defection to Locke's crew either. It's turning into a complex and very dangerous situation. I think she's just unwinding the spool a little bit, giving events a little thread....

Well, there wasn't that much hostility the last time the full group was together. As Linus4prez pointed out, Locke basically invited them over when they changed their minds. There really shouldn't be a need for Locke's team to be hostile, since Jack's group hasn't done anything to change their mind. Now, Locke's team has changed things up a bit to cause some sort of hostility from Sayid and company by kidnapping Charlotte.

Locke, Hurley, Danielle and Sawyer really shouldn't have hostility toward Sayid and Kate or need to resort to tricks. Locke I think is losing it since Jacob doesn't seem to be enamored with him anymore.

I agree there isn't and shouldn't be hostility between the groups. I'll suggest that its not so much hostility but that the stress of the radically changing sutuation has created a lot of tension between the teams. Others are scattered who knows where, Freighties wanting who knows what, nothing is as it was the last 3+ months. The Status Quo, as messed up as it was , is over. The Jack and Locke split has really created a lot of confusion among the Losties. Since Jacks S1 "Live Together" speech on the beach, the Losties have come a long way down the road to being hard nosed survivors that don't trust and expect the worst. They have certainly faced a lot of survive or not situations and they all know a threat when they see one. Even Team Jack doesn't trust, they want to play the string out because they wll risk more to get off the island. This dynamic works for me since they built the tension up between Jack and Locke over a long time. If Survival is key for everyone and you have a choice of action and you're not sure what you are up against , there will be differences of opinion on what course to take. And under stress it gets tense, and if you have weapons and have become used to their presence, then that's part of the scene.

I think this episode spelled everything out pretty well...

The freighties are hostile toward the Losties because one of them killed Naomi.
The biggest hostility is Jack's for Locke, which is why Sayid told him to stay behind. He's pissed about all the ways Locke has acted to ensure they don't get rescued. Even if it's based on lack of information (we dunno if he blew up the sub, or if he was right to kill Naomi, after all), it's not out of character.
Kate fears Locke because he threw a knife into Naomi's back (frankly, this is the only thing that seems slightly overblown to me...why would Kate give such a s**t about Naomi?), which is why she's nervous about going along.
Sawyer and Danielle questioning Locke was meant to establish that Locke isn't 100% sure of strategy here, that Ben is right about him needing to be told what to do...that, and Sawyer questions everyone.
Hurley questioning Locke was the first foundation of the regret he referred to in ep 1, but it was also a writer's device--if Hurley questions Locke and Locke gets all funky with him, then we think Hurley is really tied up and are surprised along with Sayid and Kate to learn it's a trap.
As for setting the trap, and the guns, Locke and co. knew that if Team Jack came looking they would be coming with one of Charlotte's team, who would be armed. Sawyer said so. It was just being cautious, not hostile, and I thought Locke's apology to Sayid was pretty genuine.The opposition of Locke and Jack has been building since Season 1. This all seems like logical progression to me.

And as for why Locke is the leader...everyone always looks to him for leadership because is is an older father figure, because he posits himself as a leader and implies that he has military experience, and because he seems to be confident about what they should do. Unfortunately he's as confused as everyone else is, so I think that's gonna change pretty quickly. And it'll get ugly when it does.

Nice. That was a good summary. Thanks, you've put my fears to rest. :)

A little 'tension' between the groups is bound to exist, but I feel that the writers completely overplayed it in this episode, and it stuck out like a sore thumb, and it appears I'm not the only one who thought so (not that I thought I was the only one... my wife turned to me while watching the show and was like "Why are they now acting like enemies?").

To me, Danielle escorting Sayid with a rifle to his back was the part that seemed the most awkward. Danielle has known Sayid the longest, of all of the survivors. They already went through this whole 'mistrust' thing. But they know one another. There was no reason to escort him with a rifle. The only thing that was necessary was to say "Hey, Locke is in that cabin and wants to talk to you." You think Sayid wouldn't go peacefully? Of course he would.

Hurley's comment about snapping the guy's neck was absurd, too... He himself had just run over someone... a little odd to be judging Sayid for killing someone when Hurley himself had just done the same thing. They were both acting in self defense.

I don't understand the need for the deception and the guns. These two groups parted amicably, if with different purposes. These two groups only differed on their trust of the freighters, not of each other (well, except for how some folks felt about Locke personally).

I feel that this 'tension' was forced, overplayed, and pulled me out of the show. Very awkward and contrived, in my opinion. It was just the writers trying (too hard) to introduce tension between the two groups that they obviously want there for some reason, but failed to give us a good reason to believe what they were presenting. It was really implausible.

A little 'tension' between the groups is bound to exist, but I feel that the writers completely overplayed it in this episode, and it stuck out like a sore thumb, and it appears I'm not the only one who thought so (not that I thought I was the only one... my wife turned to me while watching the show and was like "Why are they now acting like enemies?").

To me, Danielle escorting Sayid with a rifle to his back was the part that seemed the most awkward. Danielle has known Sayid the longest, of all of the survivors. They already went through this whole 'mistrust' thing. But they know one another. There was no reason to escort him with a rifle. The only thing that was necessary was to say "Hey, Locke is in that cabin and wants to talk to you." You think Sayid wouldn't go peacefully? Of course he would.

Hurley's comment about snapping the guy's neck was absurd, too... He himself had just run over someone... a little odd to be judging Sayid for killing someone when Hurley himself had just done the same thing. They were both acting in self defense.

I don't understand the need for the deception and the guns. These two groups parted amicably, if with different purposes. These two groups only differed on their trust of the freighters, not of each other (well, except for how some folks felt about Locke personally).

I feel that this 'tension' was forced, overplayed, and pulled me out of the show. Very awkward and contrived, in my opinion. It was just the writers trying (too hard) to introduce tension between the two groups that they obviously want there for some reason, but failed to give us a good reason to believe what they were presenting. It was really implausible.

I think Surferdervish's summary was well laid out and makes a lot of sense. And here Vertical, you mentioned the couple of incidents that didn't fit very well - Daneille keeping Sayid at gunpoint, Hurley's completely misplaced line about Sayid snapping someone's neck. How could Hurley even entertain the thought that Sayid would do that to him? Lost isn't really the place for nervous jokes.

The more I look at it, this episode is standing out as rather poorly written compared to others recently.

I think they needed to resort to tricks. Sayid, and Kate were walking through the house with guns. Why? Hurley tricked them, Locke is taking all precautions. I think that's the smart thing to do. Was Jacob ever enamored with Locke?!! I think Locke was a little mixed up when the cabin wasn't there, but he continued on. Hurley knows that the cabin disappears and reappears. I guess Locke must know now too. Neither of them know why though and I'm looking forward to finding that out.

Yes but the trick occured before Locke and company saw them walking around the house with guns. Hurley was in the closet when Sayid and Kate came up on Othersville, you could hear the pounding. If Locke had just walked up to Sayid when they entered Othersville, it would have all ended the same, having a civil discussion over Iced Tea. That's why the hostility and trickery makes no sense, it ended with them being civil to each other. There was no need for the hostility. It seems the trick was only written in there to give Kate and Sayid time to look around Ben's house.

Hmmmmm, after I wrote that, it made me think. Hurley TOLD Sayid that Locke and Ben stopped by Ben's house before leaving. Maybe there was a reason that Locke wanted Sayid to go to Ben's house, other than to trap him.