Only 8 survivors from the flight....

The rest are presumed dead? They are the new dharma? they are apparently alive on the island....

Discuss.....

Did I just hear Jack on the stand say that there were only 8 survivors after the crash??

This is gonna lead to alot of speculation I'm sure. Who could the other two be? That line just blew my mind. Great episode so far.

Yes, this revelation shocked me as well.

It seems not all will be revealed when our Losties go home.

What an interesting twist.

Only 8 survivors from the flight....

The rest are presumed dead? They are the new dharma? they are apparently alive on the island....

Discuss.....
Bold face lies by Jack. What could make him do that? The site of yhe crash, and how many died? But he did mention the island.

In the courtroom scene when Jack is on the stand he says only 8 of us survived in the water! He's lying of course, but that means that the real world thinks that the O6 where the 6 that got off the island and 2 more people died on the island. So only a total of 8 people survived the intial crash. What does everyopne else think.

but if 8 survived...and there is only the oceanic 6...who died?

Would they have had to have bodies to prove that the s "died". So maybe people who really did die so there's proof?

but if 8 survived...and there is only the oceanic 6...who died?
michael and walt?

Based on Jack's conversation with Kate in the parking garage I'm pretty sure that the story is one that they have been told to tell. So the real question for me is not who are the 8 (if there are 8), but who told them to tell this story and why?

to respect those who wish to remain on the island i presume

I inferred that, in the fake story, 2 died while trying to survive on the island.

with 2 dead of the 8...they would have to have buried them in the real world....so....that means 8 made it off and perhaps got killed? and yes....it means someone told them to tell the story...who?????

Is that the real Aaron? I seem to think so, so that means something happened to Claire. Could she be one of the 8 who didn't "survive'? The only way I could see Claire not leaving with Aaron, was if something really did happen to her. Desmond's vision did have both her and Aaron getting on the helicopter, so maybe something happen to Claire after she got on the chopper?

The question is, why does it have to be part of their "story" that eight people survived the plane crash but (presumably) two of them died on the island?

And does Aaron count as one of the O-6?

If 2 "died" on the island, they could easily have buried them there and not dug them up to bring them home. I mean, didn't Jack (or Kate's lawyer?) also say they survived on a deserted island for months? The bodies wouldn't necessarily have been in good enough condition to offer "proof" of the other 2's existence.

I still think only 6 made it to the real world, and now we know 5 of them.

Oceanic 6 plus Adam and Eve = 8

Its a Duh??? Moment....

I think 8 human bodies "made it to land." Six of them survived.

But I believe the real deal is 8 of them left the island with the intentions of going home. 2 died en route. Either on the freighter or ever how they make it. So the story develops that the 2 extra just died of starvation or whatever.

Everyone else is in the bottom of the ocean.

Jack + Kate + Sayid + Hugo + ____ + ____ is the 6. Clair and Aaron were the other two. Clair died in the rescue attempt or on island and the baby wasn't significant enough to be included as one of the O6.

It's one explanation anyway.

Based on Jack's conversation with Kate in the parking garage I'm pretty sure that the story is one that they have been told to tell. So the real question for me is not who are the 8 (if there are 8), but who told them to tell this story and why?Good point.

I don't think Aaron is considered one of the Oceanic 6 (8) since he was born on the island...

Is that the real Aaron? I seem to think so, so that means something happened to Claire. Could she be one of the 8 who didn't "survive'? The only way I could see Claire not leaving with Aaron, was if something really did happen to her. Desmond's vision did have both her and Aaron getting on the helicopter, so maybe something happen to Claire after she got on the chopper?

In response to the part about Desmond's vision, I'm wondering if it is possible that Desmond had lied about seeing Claire and Aaron leaving the island. If you remember, they never actually showed this flash of Desmond's. It's possible that he seen somebody leaving the island on a helicopter, but not Claire and Aaron, but then told Charlie that so he would be more likely to carry through.

Jack, Kate, Sayid, Hurley. Jin, Sun, Juliet & Desmond.

the O6 + Those two

I'm assuming that 6 people came home alive (the Oceanic 6) and 2 people came home dead. If so...then it's possible the other 2 died after leaving the island, but before they got home.

I would imagine the 2 that "died" on the Island are the marshal and Claire. He already mentioned the marshal on the stand.


Edit: I just re-watched the scene and Jack says he never spoke with the marshal and he died in the crash

I would imagine the 2 that "died" on the Island are the marshal and Claire. He already mentioned the marshal on the stand.

He said the Marshal died in the crash and that he never talked to him.

I think that the other two are Michael and Walt. They get off the island and somehow are instrumental in getting the other six off the island. Or at least Michael is. Their help leads to the finding of the other 6.

I think another very important thing that no one has mentioned is what happens to Clair? I don't think she is one of the two that died, otherwise how would Kate be passing off Aaron as her son?

could the other 2 be Michael and Walt. They wouldn't necessarily be part of the "Oceanic Six". If you consider that the "six" are maybe found later than Michael and Walt.

8 is one of the numbers, so it had to be 8 and not 6.

could the other 2 be Michael and Walt. They wouldn't necessarily be part of the "Oceanic Six". If you consider that the "six" are maybe found later than Michael and Walt.

Yep, that seems reasonable to me.

I would also hate it if Claire died, but without Aaron & Charlie, how much story would she have left to tell?

I'm thinking their story is that 8 people survived the crash and 2 died on the island in between the time they crashed and the time they were rescued. As part of the story, Claire probably was one of the ones who died on the island (perhaps during childbirth), which is why Kate is now raising Aaron.

Kate is passing Aaron off as her own so people in the "real world" wouldn't know it was Claire's baby and couldn't be counted as one of the O6. But - my question is how do they explain his age? Claire was 8 or 9 mths pg on the plane. How did Kate, who they know wasnt that pregnant when the plane crashed, explain how she has a baby that age?

Did I just hear Jack on the stand say that there were only 8 survivors after the crash??
YIP!!!
Maybe Claire was one of the 8, but was presumed alive long enough to give birth to Aaron.
Is Aaron on of the 6?!

He said the Marshal died in the crash and that he never talked to him.

I think that the other two are Michael and Walt. They get off the island and somehow are instrumental in getting the other six off the island. Or at least Michael is. Their help leads to the finding of the other 6.


You're right. I just re-watched it. My bad

Tried posting this once but then I got a busy signal so my apologies if it posts twice, but here goes.

At Kate's trial, Jack says that 8 survived, and even with Kate helping everyone the other two dies. Is this important? If so who are the other 2.

I figure everything on this show means something, just want to hear everyone's thoughts.

In response to the part about Desmond's vision, I'm wondering if it is possible that Desmond had lied about seeing Claire and Aaron leaving the island. If you remember, they never actually showed this flash of Desmond's. It's possible that he seen somebody leaving the island on a helicopter, but not Claire and Aaron, but then told Charlie that so he would be more likely to carry through.

Well we also never saw the flash with the seagulls either.

Tried posting this once but then I got a busy signal so my apologies if it posts twice, but here goes.

At Kate's trial, Jack says that 8 survived, and even with Kate helping everyone the other two dies. Is this important? If so who are the other 2.

I figure everything on this show means something, just want to hear everyone's thoughts.

Well, for starters, I believe that the other 2 came home with the Oceanic 6...only they were dead. Which is why we don't have the Oceanic 8.

As far as who it is, I can't make up my mind. My first thoughts told me it had to be Jin and Sun, but who knows?

It was just a cover story. Jack said that only 8 people survived the crash (a lie), and 6 made it off the island (the Oceanic 6).

Hurley counts as 2 :)

Just kidding..I love that guy

Kate is passing Aaron off as her own so people in the "real world" wouldn't know it was Claire's baby and couldn't be counted as one of the O6. But - my question is how do they explain his age? Claire was 8 or 9 mths pg on the plane. How did Kate, who they know wasnt that pregnant when the plane crashed, explain how she has a baby that age?

Actually, the "lie" could be that Kate was 5 months pregnant while on the plane. Some women don't show that much at 5 months (my sister only gained 5 pounds the whole pregnancy). So really there would only have been a 3 month difference from Kate at 5 months (the lie) and Claire at 8. That only makes a difference of 3 months. A 3 month difference isn't that noticeable at all.

Based on Jack's conversation with Kate in the parking garage I'm pretty sure that the story is one that they have been told to tell. So the real question for me is not who are the 8 (if there are 8), but who told them to tell this story and why?


BINGO!!!!!!!!!!!

back to a time continumium problem?

hold up...kates mom said as the years went by...and 6 months would pass and another 6 months when she should be dead...so...maybe that was a clue here....maybe years passed off the island and it wouldnt matter if kate was pregnant on the plane???

i think the point is, why even say 2 survived and then died? why not just say 6 survived the crash.

Yeah it's just a cover story. What I find wrong with it is that Ben gets off the island too and maybe Juliet or Desmond, so how do they explain them? I'm guessing this means Juliet and Des are still on the island and I have no idea about Ben.

The story of eight surviving the crash, but only 6 making it home is A LIE. (I think you've told that story so many times that your starting to believe it) Remember our 40+ survivors?

Guessing which two could have actually survived, but not made it back is useless. The question is WHY do they need to say there were originally eight?

Basically everything Jack said in court was a pack of liessss!

michael and walt?

How about Boone and Shannon?

Tried posting this once but then I got a busy signal so my apologies if it posts twice, but here goes.

At Kate's trial, Jack says that 8 survived, and even with Kate helping everyone the other two dies. Is this important? If so who are the other 2.

I figure everything on this show means something, just want to hear everyone's thoughts.

It could be anything 2 people that died during the island departure but the cover being that they died after the crash. It could also be that since Juliette and Desmond were not on the plane they also got off the Island but the cover is that 8 survived the crash but only 6 made it back. Desmond and Juliette and possibly Ben got back but the public or the media does not know about them.

back to a time continumium problem?

hold up...kates mom said as the years went by...and 6 months would pass and another 6 months when she should be dead...so...maybe that was a clue here....maybe years passed off the island and it wouldnt matter if kate was pregnant on the plane???

......and upon the O6 homecoming, Aaron was too old to have been conceived before the crash. Now the story has to be that the baby was conceived on the island and a father is needed. For some reason the fake dad can't be Sayid, Hurley or Jack so they need to say that Aaron's father died on the island?

Nah. Not sounding right to me.

I was more shocked by the part about they were living on a 'deserted island in the South Pacific'....

Nobody found that even more interesteing that the 8 survivors part?

I knew that they were gonna make up something like that. They are telling kind of the 'truth', but like always not the WHOLE truth.

Of course, this island Jack speakls about is NOT OUR island. No bunkers, no Dharma and not Smokie. Just a suitable island they found somewhere in the Pacific.
But this brings even more questions than answers...

Wasn't the plane found in the Indian Ocean???????????????????????????
Why, if they are faking a crash site, didn;t they place this 'fake' island CLOSE tol the wreckage??????
It makes no sense at all.

Jack, like Cooper, confirmed that the world believes the plane crashed in the Pacific, yet Flight 815 was found in the Indian Ocean? How come?????

Tried posting this once but then I got a busy signal so my apologies if it posts twice, but here goes.

At Kate's trial, Jack says that 8 survived, and even with Kate helping everyone the other two dies. Is this important? If so who are the other 2.

I figure everything on this show means something, just want to hear everyone's thoughts.

How about Boone and Shannon?

hold up...kates mom said as the years went by...and 6 months would pass and another 6 months when she should be dead...so...maybe that was a clue here....maybe years passed off the island and it wouldnt matter if kate was pregnant on the plane???

exactly. i don't believe we have seen anything to pinpoint how long it has been since their "rescue". it could have been 6 months it could have been 6 years. i sincerely doubt the criminal justice system would take that long to prosecute, but who knows.

My first thought was that the other two survivors were Walt and Michael. Perhaps they wouldn't be included in the "Oceanic 6" if they were found earlier? Not very confident in that idea though, because that would mean the public would have had to know there were survivors of the crash before the other 6 came back.

EDIT: Upon listening to jack on the stand again, the last few words before Kate cuts him off, he talks about how she took care of everyone, and "she tried to help the other two but..." and then she cuts him off. So I revise my opinion and now think the other two will be explained as having died on the island after surviving the initial crash.

I think 8 human bodies "made it to land." Six of them survived.

But I believe the real deal is 8 of them left the island with the intentions of going home. 2 died en route. Either on the freighter or ever how they make it. So the story develops that the 2 extra just died of starvation or whatever.

Everyone else is in the bottom of the ocean.

Jack says in his testimony that Kate tried to save 2 of the people after the crash, but couldn't. Whoever wants them to lie would have known the truth about these people which leads me to believe they didnt die en route.

i think the point is, why even say 2 survived and then died? why not just say 6 survived the crash.

This is tricky becasue of tonight's revelations:

1- They have to say that eight survived becasue we know six make it back to civilization

2- I think Aaron qualifies as one of the Oceanic 6, right? At any rate it appears Claire didn't make it back so they had to explain how Aaron was born so Claire had to survive the initial crash but (coverup) "died during childbirth."

So this leaves an interesting question as to who the other Oceanic 8 survivor was?

Oceanic 6 = Jack, Kate, Hurley, Aaron, Sayid

Oceanic 8 = Claire (and those above)

This is tricky becasue of tonight's revelations:

1- They have to say that eight survived becasue we know six make it back to civilization

2- I think Aaron qualifies as one of the Oceanic 6, right? At any rate it appears Claire didn't make it back so they had to explain how Aaron was born so Claire had to survive the initial crash but (coverup) "died during childbirth."

So this leaves an interesting question as to who the other Oceanic 8 survivor was?

Oceanic 6 = Jack, Kate, Hurley, Aaron, Sayid

Oceanic 8 = Claire (and those above)

Well, obviously The Oceanic Six are lying about how many survived the crash. So with their story being eight survived the crash but two of them ended up dying, they have a sizable list from which to choose the other two. My guess was Boone and Shannon, but they could say Ana Lucia or Eko or Charlie.

This is tricky becasue of tonight's revelations:

1- They have to say that eight survived becasue we know six make it back to civilization

2- I think Aaron qualifies as one of the Oceanic 6, right? At any rate it appears Claire didn't make it back so they had to explain how Aaron was born so Claire had to survive the initial crash but (coverup) "died during childbirth."

So this leaves an interesting question as to who the other Oceanic 8 survivor was?

Oceanic 6 = Jack, Kate, Hurley, Aaron, Sayid

Oceanic 8 = Claire (and those above)

I don't think aaron would really count as one of the oceanic 6 considering he wasnt technically a passenger on the manifest. As far as claire is concerned i have no clue, but we know des said he saw her gettin in the chopper so maybe something happens to her after getting off the island.
100%
My guess was Boone and Shannon, but they could say Ana Lucia or Eko or Charlie.

As far as them saying Ana i don't think they do, if ya remember back in the season opener ana's former partner mentioned her to hurley and he said he didnt know her and he wouldve known her if she was mentioned as a survivor.

The reveal in Confirmed Dead about the plane crashing in the Sunda Trench really looks strange in light of this episode, with Jack's testimony. And nobody on the jury or elsewhere in that courtroom seemed to bat an eye when he said the plane crashed on an island. How in the world will they connect those two dots?

Putting that aside, the theories that others have posted here about Aaron being one of the "6" doesn't make sense as he wasn't really a passenger, but it's still an outside possibility. I don't know about everyone else, but I'd feel a bit cheated if they counted him as one of them. I was hoping for 6 flash forward stories of those survivors, and this way 2 get rolled up into 1. I'm still thinking someone else is that fifth member of the "6".

And Desmond and Juliet can't be part of that group because they were never on the plane. The public wouldn't recognize them, and it would be easy to prove they weren't on the plane. My guess is that if they do get off as well, they become part of the rescue section of the cover story. Maybe something like they had piloted a fishing boat out near the island and picked up a signal from the Oceanic 6? Or came across a certain S.O.S. sign made out of rocks? Just a thought -

hold up...kates mom said as the years went by...and 6 months would pass and another 6 months when she should be dead...so...maybe that was a clue here....I think she said it had been 4 years since she got sick & had 6 months to live. Does anyone know how long passed from when Kate visited her mom in the hospital until the plane crashed? It might give us some clues...

2- I think Aaron qualifies as one of the Oceanic 6, right? At any rate it appears Claire didn't make it back so they had to explain how Aaron was born so Claire had to survive the initial crash but (coverup) "died during childbirth."

This would be a great answer to "why do they have to lie about an extra two people surviving the crash" if it weren't for Kate telling the world that Aaron is her son. She was in no way given legal custody or adoptive rights to this child, so hiding Claire's ever surviving the initial crash is imperative.

One of them should be Charlie because Penelope saw him in TTLG and if I remember correctly he told her that he was a survivor of Oceanic 815. If Penelope is still alive I'm guessing that she would bring that to everyone's attention.

As far as them saying Ana i don't think they do, if ya remember back in the season opener ana's former partner mentioned her to hurley and he said he didnt know her and he wouldve known her if she was mentioned as a survivor.

That's right, I had forgotten that scene.

I think she said it had been 4 years since she got sick & had 6 months to live. Does anyone know how long passed from when Kate visited her mom in the hospital until the plane crashed? It might give us some clues...

Kate was on the run for three years before the plane crash. She would have visited her mom in the hospital after the events of WKD and LB (In which her mom appeared physically healthy). I'm thinking about two years prior to current island-time?

I think the lie about the 2 extra people is necessary to explain some existing evidence of their crash survival. My best guess is that they needed to explain why Aaron was born (Claire survived the crash but died after childbirth.)

One of them should be Charlie because Penelope saw him in TTLG and if I remember correctly he told her that he was a survivor of Oceanic 815. If Penelope is still alive I'm guessing that she would bring that to everyone's attention.Unless she's involved...

One of them should be Charlie because Penelope saw him in TTLG and if I remember correctly he told her that he was a survivor of Oceanic 815. If Penelope is still alive I'm guessing that she would bring that to everyone's attention.

By jove I think you've got it. This is the only time any of the losties have made contact with the outside world. (Other than Jack calling the frieghties but it looks like they're all in on the coverup.)

Based on Jack's conversation with Kate in the parking garage I'm pretty sure that the story is one that they have been told to tell. So the real question for me is not who are the 8 (if there are 8), but who told them to tell this story and why?

I agree. Only 6 made it back alive and the remaining people were thought to be down at the bottom of the ocean. So does that mean Aaron is one of the O6. Who made them tell the story will be very interesting.
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One of them should be Charlie because Penelope saw him in TTLG and if I remember correctly he told her that he was a survivor of Oceanic 815. If Penelope is still alive I'm guessing that she would bring that to everyone's attention.

Penelope knows about the island and everything else, so I wouldn't think she would tell anyone.

I inferred that, in the fake story, 2 died while trying to survive on the island.

That's what I got from Jack's statement. That 8 survived but 2 passed away while on the Island.

To say that 8 got off the Island is reading too much into his statement. Then they would have been called the Oceanic 8 instead of 6.

It's interesting that Jack lies so easily in this flash-forward but later he says that he is tired of lying.

Kate is passing Aaron off as her own so people in the "real world" wouldn't know it was Claire's baby and couldn't be counted as one of the O6. But - my question is how do they explain his age? Claire was 8 or 9 mths pg on the plane. How did Kate, who they know wasnt that pregnant when the plane crashed, explain how she has a baby that age?

This is the question I've been asking myself! Kate wasn't pregnant when she boarded the plane and li'l Aaron's about 2 or so in this ff. It doesn't make sense at the moment.

back to a time continumium problem?

hold up...kates mom said as the years went by...and 6 months would pass and another 6 months when she should be dead...so...maybe that was a clue here....maybe years passed off the island and it wouldnt matter if kate was pregnant on the plane???

That could be it and she said that Aaron was Jack's or something like that. :shrug: Until we get a better idea of the timelines, we're going to be scratching our heads a lot!

One of them should be Charlie because Penelope saw him in TTLG and if I remember correctly he told her that he was a survivor of Oceanic 815. If Penelope is still alive I'm guessing that she would bring that to everyone's attention.

That's a great point. I haven't seen or heard any hints that she is involved in the story at least for this season.

Remember that TTLG just happened two days ago, TTLG takes place on Wed. and Thur. Day 92-92, Dec 22 and 23.

Eggtown takes place on Sat. and Sun. Day 95-96, Dec 25 and 26.
So Penny has a few days to do something with her new info. Whether we hear or see any of her efforts this season is doubtful.

Did I just hear Jack on the stand say that there were only 8 survivors after the crash??

You did! :drowsy:
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Based on Jack's conversation with Kate in the parking garage I'm pretty sure that the story is one that they have been told to tell. So the real question for me is not who are the 8 (if there are 8), but who told them to tell this story and why?

Why does it have to be an instruction? Why couldn't they have concocted it themselves?

In the courtroom scene when Jack is on the stand he says only 8 of us survived in the water! He's lying of course, but that means that the real world thinks that the O6 where the 6 that got off the island and 2 more people died on the island. So only a total of 8 people survived the intial crash. What does everyopne else think.

This was my interpretation as well.

with 2 dead of the 8...they would have to have buried them in the real world....so....that means 8 made it off and perhaps got killed? and yes....it means someone told them to tell the story...who?????

I disagree that 8 made it off. They would be the Oceanic 8 then, not the Oceanic 6. They wouldn't reduce the number each time someone died.

but if 8 survived...and there is only the oceanic 6...who died?

One death would be the Marshal escorting Kate back.

Kate is passing Aaron off as her own so people in the "real world" wouldn't know it was Claire's baby and couldn't be counted as one of the O6. But - my question is how do they explain his age? Claire was 8 or 9 mths pg on the plane. How did Kate, who they know wasnt that pregnant when the plane crashed, explain how she has a baby that age?

How does this explain Jack's reluctance to see Aaron then?
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2- I think Aaron qualifies as one of the Oceanic 6, right? At any rate it appears Claire didn't make it back so they had to explain how Aaron was born so Claire had to survive the initial crash but (coverup) "died during childbirth."

I disagree. Kate refers to him as my son. Kate's mother refers to him as her grandson. I believe that Kate is passing Aaron off as her own.
100%
Penelope knows about the island and everything else, so I wouldn't think she would tell anyone.

Where does Penelope and Desmond fit into the whole post-island equation? Wouldn't she have some interest and/or connection with these people?

Why does it have to be an instruction? Why couldn't they have concocted it themselves?

I totally agree with this. I think the O6 (or O8) came up with a story to protect those still on the island and the island itself. They don't want anyone else finding it. They will do anything to protect it.

My question is why they admitted 2 more survived the crash.

Presumably somehow the outer world knows they had to have survived, but how?

Was one Charlie because Penelope can vouch she saw him alive in his transmission, therefore they can hardly say he died on impact. (nor can it explain a communication facility on a deserted island).


What else has happened that may have alerted the outside world of a non-O6 survivor?

Boones transmission.., but that was blocked.

Did Claire ever get one of her messages away on those birds last season?

hmmmm, only 8 of us survived. I wonder who the other 2 were that apparently "died" on the island?

One death would be the Marshal escorting Kate back.

No, Jack said at the trial that the marshal died in the crash and he never met him. So he wasn't one of the "eight of us."

i think the point is, why even say 2 survived and then died? why not just say 6 survived the crash.

There has to be some reason why those two "dead" characters are mentioned to have survived the crash but died later on. I agree that the reason might be that the outside world knew of their existence. One poster mentioned Charlie talking to Penelope, so there is one person in the outside world who knows Charlie was alive. They could have said later on that Charlie survived the crash but died on the island (trying to contact Penny, maybe, like it really happened)

One death would be the Marshal escorting Kate back.

Jack said the Marshall died, but he didn't say whether he died on the island or not. He only said he never talked to him. So I'm not sure that the Marshal is the other of the two (assuming Charlie is the first)

My question is why they admitted 2 more survived the crash.
Presumably somehow the outer world knows they had to have survived, but how?
Was one Charlie because Penelope can vouch she saw him alive in his transmission, therefore they can hardly say he died on impact. (nor can it explain a communication facility on a deserted island).
What else has happened that may have alerted the outside world of a non-O6 survivor?
Boones transmission.., but that was blocked.
Did Claire ever get one of her messages away on those birds last season?

That's the big problem about Charlie being one of the two - it's a bit hard to explain to the world how he found a communications station on an allegedly deserted island. So maybe Charlie isn't one of the two who died on the island after all. But still, there have two be two other characters who they for some reason mentioned specifically, like 'X and Y survived the crash, but died on the island'. I still don't understand why, but maybe the next episodes will be more telling.
Besides, it all depends on how they get off the island. Just keep in mind that Ben is also off the island in the future, and I don't see him being one of the O6...
But the thing about Claire's message to the birds: I don't think that that message got through. I'm fairly sure she didn't sign it by name, but didn't give it the number of people who survived the crash? I can't remember now, maybe that was only the feeling I got. But even if the message got through, it didn't give her name. Only that they were waiting for rescue and not giving up hope, and that there was new life, something along those lines. So the message would have revealed a birth on the island.

Part of Claires message:

We've done our best to live on this island. Some of us have come to accept we may never leave it. Not all of us have survived since the crash, but there is new life, and with it, hope.



She doesnt sign her name, so anyone could have taken credit if it was found. But does imply some who survived have since died. So thats at least 2 who need to die post crash to justify it.

michael and walt?

Assuming they made it back to the real world, that would make the most sense. My other thought was Claire, and part of the story is that Claire died on the island.

If it is Michael and Walt the question becomes what story did they tell the world when they got back?:eek2:

If Michael and Walt make it home then they wouldn't be the two that die ON the island. I'm thinking they said 8, like other people have mentioned , to show what it was like to live on a deserted island for X days/months/years. If they said "Yeah 6 survived the crash and then we were fine! We lived off Dharma chicken and red wine!" that's kinda suspicious. If you say "Oh man it was rough! 2 of us died even :( " then that is believable and people go "wow that must've been terrible! those poor people." the 2 dead could be "Bob" and "Bill", I don't think their identities matter at all, it's just a tactic to make their survival on a deserted island sound more plausible and extraordinary. If Jack said "Yeah, Ecko and Boone died" people would say "huh? who? I don't care." It's just the point that in their story they tell so often (that kate thinks jack believes it himself) 8 survive the crash, kate helps out, but 2 die

i hope it is not mike and walt
cause if it were i would hope that we would see more attention on them being the only survivors at first....i think in the "story they are suppose to say 2 others survived the crash but only 6 made it....it was interesting to hear him (jack) talk about kate getting food when we all know that there was an abundance of food from dharma..

I don't think they are claiming they survivied on THE island. Just AN island. So, THE island is still unknown. No way all the DHARMA/Hanso stuff got exposed and wasn't mentioned in the trial. I think 8 of them left (all 815 passengers. No Juliet/Desmond/Ben etc) and they were forced to lie with the deserted island story. Something went wrong and two of them died. I don't see why they would have to make up the two deaths just to seem more realistic.

so this is my interpretation of the story that Jack is telling

That somehow, the plane crashed in the Sunda Trench and that somehow, 8 people made it out of the plane before it sank. Jack, Hurley, Kate, Sayid...2 others...and 2 more people that died on the island. That eventually they were rescued and that Kate was the hero.

The two things then that sprang to mind in the scene where...1) why did the lawyer then ask if the Marshall had told Jack that kate was a fugutive? I mean, if there was only 8 survivors, people should know who those 8 survivors are...especially if the 6 alive are ceberities.

2) are the 2 "dead" survivors....Adam and Eve?

Don't forget Desmond and Juliette and Ben could potentially get off the island, but they would not be considered a survivor of 815 since they were not on 815.

Don't forget Desmond and Juliette and Ben could potentially get off the island, but they would not be considered a survivor of 815 since they were not on 815.

How would they explain who they were without exposing the DHARMA/Hanso issue? Desmond's been missing for years. Juliet also. People would notice when they reappeared. Even if they claimed to be part of the rescuers, they would be on camera at some point and get recognized.

One death would be the Marshal escorting Kate back.

That's who I think one HAS to be. Would go along with why Kate was even on the plane to begin with. She was being escorted back.

Also maybe Jack has to say he is not in love with Kate anymore to the public so that they maybe believe that they were "in love" on the island and that is her baby with him? Another ruse to cover up that Aaron is Claire's baby?

As a poster stated earlier, Kate has been on the run for 3 years prior to the crash. She could have gotten pregnant (she was married under a false name) before the crash and gave birth. Once she realized it was too dangerous for her to be in one spot and married to a cop, she decides to run once again, and in the meantime placing her 'son' in the care of someone else. She then flees to Australia and boards 815...poof it crashes...100 days later she gets rescued and comes back to LA where she is now charged with murder and then stands trial. A normal murder trial would take about 6 months or so to try, therefore 4 years have passed since Kate saw her mom and about 2-3 years have passed since she gave birth to 'her son.'

As far as the 'bird letter' goes, it does say new life on the island, but it does not say a baby was born.

Well there's two choices here, it all depends on your perception. What is a "son" or a "grandson"? Is that specifically blood/biologically related, or does it go beyond that? I ask this because Kate's mother says it, now if you assume the first, then that means that Kate is passing the son off as her own bio-son, which conclusively means that Claire's name wouldn't be involved in the 8 that survived the crash.

But if you believe the second, that everyone knows the child is Claire's biologically, but that Kate has raised it since day one (assuming they say Claire died in childbirth), then that's still Kate "son" isn't it? Just because she didn't give birth to him, doesn't mean she didn't raise him right? Now if you believe this, then conclusively this would mean that Claire's name would be in one of the eight crash survivors, one of the two that didn't survive. This would also explain Kate's lack of pregnancy, and would cover up any potential holes in the cover up story that the whole world will hear.

Personally i'm inclined to believe the second option, as it's the most realistic outcome. But it could go either way tbh.

I'm beginning to like the theory that Kate is not just the designated adopter after Claire supposedly "dies" on the island, that she is really passing Aaron off as her son. Kate's mom seems to believe that it is her grandchild.

Maybe Kate cut off Jack's testimony because it was leading to a description of how the heroic, 4-month-pregnant Kate landed on the island, then later gave birth on the island and took care of her child with no resources, etc. etc. (violin music in the background.) That would explain why the lawyer thought having that toddler in the courtroom would be so moving.

So, Claire would not need to be one of the 8 in that scenario. BUT, it would imply some time shift to cover her being a few months less pregnant than Claire, or at least a delay in the freighties getting them rescue. 100 days doesn't give enough plausibe wiggle time from flat-bellied Kate boarding a plane to Mama Kate.

I'm guessing, in this little phoney scenario of Jack's, that Sawyer is one of the two who dies on the Island so he can therefore be the "father" of Kate's baby in this mythology posed to the rest of the world. Yes, they would also have to lie about the baby's actual age so conception could have been on the Island. But lies and messing around with time is a staple of the Lost characters so that is no big deal.

I know its been written in this thread before, but at this point it would seem logical that one of the other 2 would be Claire. If Aaron is one of the Oceanic Six, any cover story would have to explain Claire surviving long enough to give birth, but not returning home. My guess:

Oceanic 6 - Jack, Kate, Hugo, Sayid, Aaron, Michael.
"Other 2" - Claire & Walt.

There was a bit of a hint in the episode when Sun said she wanted to go back to Korea to raise her baby. Could it be that 8 people survived, and the Oceanic 6 are just the American survivors, and Jin and Sun don't count because they tried to keep their anonymity by moving back to Seoul?

Who are the "extra two" of C8?

Perhaps two people who everyone knows about, but who didn't make it back:
1. the pilot
2. the marshal
100%
I'm beginning to like the theory that Kate is not just the designated adopter after Claire supposedly "dies" on the island, that she is really passing Aaron off as her son. Kate's mom seems to believe that it is her grandchild.

That may explain Kate telling her mother something like "I'll never let you near him", for fear she would immediately recognize that Aaron couldn't be Kate's child.

I think Kate has to be passing Aaron off as her own child unless the cover storey is that Claire died just as rescue was at hand. Otherwise, how did Aaron survive? Breastfeeding would have been his only source of nutrition. But from what I remember of Jack's testimony, passing Kate off as Aaron's natural mother doesn't really work either since she was supposedly the one who found food and water for everyone else. Was she running around doing all of that in the final stages of pregnancy and with a newborn? I just can't make sense of the cover storey.

I think Sun has to be one of the Oceanic 6, otherwise she and her baby will both die, and unless she dies on island before rescue, that just isn't right. I don't believe TPTB will kill her on island.

As for the other 2, hmmm, that is a tough one. I am inclined to go with Claire and someone else, or Michael and Walt.

All of the other Oceanic 6 seems to have received a large settlement, they had money , nice houses, clothing, etc. The body in the coffin--if it is in fact Michael--did not seem to scream affluence. He was not in a really nice funeral home, etc. So maybe Michael and Walt did get off, but for some reason they were counted as dead and did not get the same monetary settlement as the other 6.

I think the other two must be Juliette and Desmond. They were already on the island, they were not part of the plane crash, therefore they would not be included in the Oceanic 6. Plus they definately have more motivation than others to leave the island (Penny and Rachel).

so this is my interpretation of the story that Jack is telling

That somehow, the plane crashed in the Sunda Trench and that somehow, 8 people made it out of the plane before it sank.

Sorry, that's not right:

JACK: On September 22, 2004*, Kate... Miss Austen and I were passengers on Oceanic flight 815 which crash landed on an island in the South Pacific.

The Sundra trench is in the Indian Ocean. It runs parallel to the west/south coasts of Sumatra and Java. So the O6 "story" does not jibe with the "815" that was found by the Christiane I.




Jack said the Marshall died, but he didn't say whether he died on the island or not. He only said he never talked to him.

Sorry, that is wrong, too:

FORRESTER: Were you aware that Miss Austen was a fugitive being transported by a United States Marshal on that flight to Los Angeles for trial?

JACK: I did learn that eventually, yes.

FORRESTER: From the U.S. Marshal?

JACK: No. The Marshal died in the the crash. I never spoke to him. Miss Austen told me.


------------------------------------------
* Merry Christmas, Lostaways!

Most simple choices for the extra 2 would be Charlie and Claire.
If it was known that she was pregrent before the flight, then somehow survived the crash, it would be very plausible for her to die during childbirth. After all this was a "deserted island" with no medical supplies and she just went through a plane crash. Would be easier to explain the baby too..
Charlie was, or used to be famous (I remember Kate recognizing him in the Pilot). So if you want to make a good cover story, why not use somebody everyone already know. The fact that he talked to Penny couldve been somehow leaked to the press too, so it had to be covered.
Hurly too seemed to still be emotional about Charlie. It might not be the reason, but maybe Hurly's visions of Charlie started because he had to lie all the time about seeing him die after the crash.

Oceanic 6 plus Adam and Eve = 8

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm. :undecide:

Could Adam and Eve be fellow survivors of the crash who came in at a different time (ie a lot earlier) to the rest of the Losties?

If the people theorising that there is a variable time-loss as you go through the EM barrier around the Island then is it possible that some of the 'material' of Flight 815 came through at a different trajectory and that 'Adam and Eve' landed on the Island (dead or alive) a lot 'earlier' than the rest of the survivors?

I think 8 people make it off of the island, but never make it back to the 'real world'. Perhaps between leaving the island and going to the freighter, helicopter, whatever.....they die. Possibly there bodies are recovered and the Oceanic 6 must come up with a story as to what happened and why 2 of them are dead.

How can it not be Michael and Walt??? He said 8 survived, we know 6 are going to be taken off by the freighties(Jack, Kate, Sayid, Hurley and Aaron? and possibly one or two more depending on Aaron's status). What two other people do we know who left the island and now also have to be telling the same lie as everyone else? MICHAEL and WALT. Who is from New York? Who would have a teenage son in a couple of years? Who's funeral would Kate not want to go to because at one point he killed two of the people on the island and gave up, Kate, Jack, Sawyer and Hurley to be rescued?

Michael!

I think Sun has to be one of the Oceanic 6, otherwise she and her baby will both die, and unless she dies on island before rescue, that just isn't right. I don't believe TPTB will kill her on

Sun could have just decided to stay on the island with Jin.
100%
Sorry, that's not right:

JACK: On September 22, 2004*, Kate... Miss Austen and I were passengers on Oceanic flight 815 which crash landed on an island in the South Pacific.

The Sundra trench is in the Indian Ocean. It runs parallel to the west/south coasts of Sumatra and Java. So the O6 "story" does not jibe with the "815" that was found by the Christiane I.




You people crack me up. Many people would call Sumatra and Java as being in the
South Pacific Ocean or Indopacific even if technically it isn't.

I buy coffee at Peet's Coffee. I prefer the "Coffees of the Pacific" which come from
Sumatra, New Guinea, and Indonesia.

I think it is wholly acceptable to refer to that region as the South Pacific, whether an
academic feels that is truly accurate or not. I don't see any problem with Jack's
statement.

For me, it's also rather "Who told them to lie?" and "Why do they have to tell the lie?" that only 8 survived the crash, with the Oceanic 6 making it off the Island.

But if I were to speculate who the other two "survivors" are I'd say that one has to be whomever they declare to be Kate's baby daddy, if she is indeed passing off Aaron as her own child (as I think she is). Otherwise people in the "real world" would conclude that the father is one of the Oceanic 6.

One of them should be Charlie because Penelope saw him in TTLG and if I remember correctly he told her that he was a survivor of Oceanic 815. If Penelope is still alive I'm guessing that she would bring that to everyone's attention.

Maybe she gets Des back and doesn't care about the lie the others have to tell.

You could pass off Aaron as Jack's son, as a paternity test could prove it. Great-grandchild of Christian and son of Christian Shepherd. Will share DNA.

Of course so far noone knows any of this, except maybe Ben who knows all.

Some kind of time-distortion would be required unless they claim to have met in sydney, although we dont know yet how many days till they actually leave, could be months yet.



I've always suspected Sun will get off but not Jin, it would make for too juicy story-telling.

You people crack me up. Many people would call Sumatra and Java as being in the
South Pacific Ocean or Indopacific even if technically it isn't.

I buy coffee at Peet's Coffee. I prefer the "Coffees of the Pacific" which come from
Sumatra, New Guinea, and Indonesia.

I think it is wholly acceptable to refer to that region as the South Pacific, whether an
academic feels that is truly accurate or not. I don't see any problem with Jack's
statement.

Well, I'm so happy that you find "us people" so entertaining.

But, geez. Dude!
You need to get yourself an atlas or a globe.
I am as far from being "an academic" as the Sunda Trench is from the South Pacific Ocean (that would be roughly, at the very least, about 3,000 miles). As far as Spain is from Maine. But I have an atlas, and a globe, and I'm curious about most everything, and I read a lot.

Those "many people" you refer to would be just plain wrong.

Yes, we can use the term "IndoPacific" to refer to the combined areas surrounding the North Pacific, South Pacific and Indian Oceans, and that would cover something a bit over 1/3 of the of the surface of the entire planet. But that does not make the Indian Ocean the South Pacific. And no, it is certainly NOT "wholly acceptable" to say that Sumatra is in the Pacific Ocean.

(Argh!)

If you are willing to learn your geography from a coffee purveyor, I shudder to think what else you "know".

I now apologize to the others following this thread.

Here are my thoughts, though someone may have already said this as I am not going to read 3 whole pages of stuff...

1. Jack & Kate obviously are lying, but the real question is why? Well due to Sayiid's flash forwards moment with Ben, I'm going to say they are trying to protect their friends/the island from outsiders.

2. What is the point of lying though? Well, because if they said 48 or whatever odd people survived, and only 8 are accounted for, don't you think lots of families would want to go to the island, exhume the 40 bodies, and give them a proper burial? Of course, they say only 8 made it to protect people from searching for the bodies.

3. What about the other 2 dead ones? Well, my guess is they either were killed, or died on the way to the main land, possibly due to foul play. Why? Cause obviously they have 2 bodies they need to account for, otherwise they never would have said 8 survived the crash but only 6 lived through the island. Those 2 bodies were on the boat, helicopter, etc and therefore needed to be accounted for.

4. Who came up with the lie? Ben, of course, he has always been the most adament about protecting the island, and the one who can keep the most calm when under stress. He would have been able to come up with this story easily, and conviced the Oceanic 6 to tell it to protect their friends.

5. A little random, but I also believe that Ben may have worked with whoever it was that set up the fake Oceanic 815 remains that were found. Why? Well first off, he doesn't want people to find the island, so once they find the plane there is no reason to continue searching... Also, it fits with my theory :P Just another reason only 8 survived, cause if they said 48 odd survivers were found, I very seriously doubt that would match up with the number of bodies they found in the "planted" plane crash. Questions would arise, and the Island would be searched for. Not good stuff if you are Ben.

This Pacific/Indian Ocean thing really annoys me. Is it a mistake or a clue? Initially I was inclined to think it was a mistake as they seemed to make it last season as well. In The Brig Naomi says the wreckage was found off the coast of Bali but then later in the same episode Cooper says it was in the Pacific Ocean. Back then no one thought much of it since we didn't know if either of them were telling the truth.

But at the beginning of 4x02 the newscaster says correctly that the plane was found in the Indian Ocean. Could the writers really have gotten their oceans mixed up again 2 episodes later? I mean we're hardly dealing with 2 fake planes are we?

Jack + Kate + Sayid + Hugo + ____ + ____ is the 6. Clair and Aaron were the other two. Clair died in the rescue attempt or on island and the baby wasn't significant enough to be included as one of the O6.

It's one explanation anyway.

I think that Sayid is not one of the Oceanic 6 now. We know he gets off the island, but perhaps not the same way as the others, and is not a "celebrated" survivor. After all, Sayid and Desmond are now missing on the helicopter, and Desmond wouldn't be one of the 6 either, since he wasn't on the plane.

I am as far from being "an academic" as the Sunda Trench is from the South Pacific Ocean (that would be roughly, at the very least, about 3,000 miles).


From Strait of Malacca to the Sunda Trench is not that far. It's maybe 500 miles tops.
Likewise from the Sunda Strait to the Sunda Trench. Basically, one shoreline of Sumatra
is on the Pacific Ocean and the other is on the Indian Ocean. It is not incorrect to refer to Sumatra
as a Pacific island. I can find a lot of sources for this, but here is one:


"Clearly defined to the east by the American coast, to the north-west by the Asian mainland and in the south-west by Australia and an imaginary line drawn south from Tasmania to Antarctica, its west-central edge is fuzzy and more a matter of definition for classification's sake that an actual boundary. For this purpose the strait of Malacca and the island chain that includes Java and Sumatra are taken as its westernmost point. "

http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node=Pacific+Ocean


Yes, technically the Sunda Trench is in the Indian Ocean, but my point is that the difference is close enough that a layperson (like Jack) might not make a distinction, especially when he was
supposedly headed out over the South Pacific initially.


So there might be something to the geographic inconsistency or there may not be. It's
certainly not a given as if one location was Delaware and the other was Argentina which
would raise some red flags.

I'm going to say Michael, Walt, Claire or Sawyer (Sawyer since we haven't seen him in any Kate flashforwards yet). I believe 2 of the 4 listed somehow attempt to come back but don't make it. OR, maybe Michael and Walt do comeback, but they comeback by boat.

This Pacific/Indian Ocean thing really annoys me. Is it a mistake or a clue? Initially I was inclined to think it was a mistake as they seemed to make it last season as well. In The Brig Naomi says the wreckage was found off the coast of Bali but then later in the same episode Cooper says it was in the Pacific Ocean.


Bali is in the Pacific Ocean, so there's no conflict there.

I think that Sayid is not one of the Oceanic 6 now. We know he gets off the island, but perhaps not the same way as the others, and is not a "celebrated" survivor. After all, Sayid and Desmond are now missing on the helicopter, and Desmond wouldn't be one of the 6 either, since he wasn't on the plane.

But in 'The Economist' Sayid introduced himself as one of the survivors of the crash.
Talking about 8 alleged survivors: i don't think that Aaron is one of the 8 because he was born on the island (although not from Kate, but that is something the world doesn't know).
So it would be: Jack+Kate+Hugo+Sayid+ alive nr5 + alive nr 6 plus dead nr 7 and 8. The last two having died on the island or on the way 'home'.

I'm still wondering whether the person in the coffin in the S3-final is also one of the O6. (You would expect more visitors if this were the case; they are kind of celebrities).

Ofcourse there are more survivors on the island (or maybe even off the island?), but for a reason still unknown to us this has to be kept secret for the rest of the world (and for mr Abbadon c.s.).

I think that Sayid is not one of the Oceanic 6 now. We know he gets off the island, but perhaps not the same way as the others, and is not a "celebrated" survivor. After all, Sayid and Desmond are now missing on the helicopter, and Desmond wouldn't be one of the 6 either, since he wasn't on the plane.
He said he was in the FF.

Bali is in the Pacific Ocean, so there's no conflict there.
No it isn't. Bali is in the Indian Ocean.

I don't think Micheal and Walt would be included with the survivors. I think they came back before and their identities were changed as part of a deal to get off the island. I think it was Micheal's funeral Jack went to, but Micheal's name was changed to John or something on the newspaper clipping- it did say he was survived by a teenage son.

But in 'The Economist' Sayid introduced himself as one of the survivors of the crash.
Talking about 8 alleged survivors: i don't think that Aaron is one of the 8 because he was born on the island (although not from Kate, but that is something the world doesn't know).
So it would be: Jack+Kate+Hugo+Sayid+ alive nr5 + alive nr 6 plus dead nr 7 and 8. The last two having died on the island or on the way 'home'.

I'm still wondering whether the person in the coffin in the S3-final is also one of the O6. (You would expect more visitors if this were the case; they are kind of celebrities).

Ofcourse there are more survivors on the island (or maybe even off the island?), but for a reason still unknown to us this has to be kept secret for the rest of the world (and for mr Abbadon c.s.).

Yes, you're right. I had forgotten that he introduced himself that way.

There has to be something to the fact that Kate does not wanting to show her baby to the public or to her mother. She had no reason to not show her mother the kid after she essentially starts showing signs of forgiving Kate. I think it's that Kate can't show the baby because she has to keep Claire a secret for whatever reason. I'm thinking that Desmond's flashback was something to get Charlie be heroic and die because if you recall Desmond offered to switch places with Charlie on that boat before he dived down to the Looking Glass. Des was feeling some guilt about something. There was no Claire & Aaron on a helicopter. From his encounter with the ring lady he realized that there was nothing he could essentially do to save Charlie so he fed him a line.

I think Claire is dead and Kate and Jack's cover story is that Kate is the birthmother. I don't think Kate stole the baby, she doesn't even want to be a mother, as is shown in this episode. She was probably forced to take the kid because Jack was too mentally messed up about Claire to handle parenting. The reason they have to tell this story is tied to the reason why Sayid is killing for Ben. I feel like their Oceanic 6/8 story is similar to the direction Ben gave to his others when the plane crashed. Ben is probably (still) running the show.

Perhaps we'll see that Kate's nanny or someone she runs into works for Dharma and the people come after Aaron - he was born on the Island so I'm sure they'd love to know more about him. Maybe that's when Kate finally decides to go back to the Island.

I don't count Aaron as part of the Oceanic 6.

And do you guys really think the other 2 survivors matter? Don't you think Jack was told to say 8 survived the crashed but 2 died before they were rescued to make the story seem more legit. I honestly don't think it matters who the 2 dead people are. We, the audience, know that there were obviously more survivors and that as far as we know the bulk of them are still alive. So I think this conversation is irrelevant. I have to admit though that when I heard Jack say this in court I too was shocked. But I realize it's only a cover story anyway and it's not the truth.

are we all asuming that only the oceanic 6 survived? maybe more got off the island and they have chosen 6 to go into the media spotlight and called them "the oceanic 6".

with the oceanic 6 they might have been told a story and they have to stick with it. i.e the plane had crashed in the sea and only 8 initally survived and then 2 died while waiting for rescue to come

this might explain why no-one was near that coffin at the end of series 3 as they didnt know he/she was still alive before he/she died.

In the courtroom scene when Jack is on the stand he says only 8 of us survived in the water! He's lying of course, but that means that the real world thinks that the O6 where the 6 that got off the island and 2 more people died on the island. So only a total of 8 people survived the intial crash. What does everyopne else think.

i agree with you! That what i thought too!
of course there's still the Identity theory...not 48 survivors but 8 survivors suffering from multiple personality...but seriously i don't believe it...

i agree with you! That what i thought too!
of course there's still the Identity theory...not 48 survivors but 8 survivors suffering from multiple personality...but seriously i don't believe it...

Yeah I don't believe that either.

It makes more sense that they are saying that because it wouldn't make sense for their to be 48 survivors with a "fake" plane crash full of dead bodies. 8 could have been miscounted, 48 would look obvious to the public, families, etc. and then people would ask questions. Ben can't have anyone asking questions, hence the lie about the O6/8.

I don't count Aaron as part of the Oceanic 6.

And do you guys really think the other 2 survivors matter? Don't you think Jack was told to say 8 survived the crashed but 2 died before they were rescued to make the story seem more legit. I honestly don't think it matters who the 2 dead people are. We, the audience, know that there were obviously more survivors and that as far as we know the bulk of them are still alive. So I think this conversation is irrelevant. I have to admit though that when I heard Jack say this in court I too was shocked. But I realize it's only a cover story anyway and it's not the truth.

Yes - I think the other 2 'survivors' who died after the crash do matter. It's entirely likely that their bodies were 'recovered' when the O-6 were 'rescued' so it means that 2 more people are going to die before the six are back in the real world. Maybe they die in the course of getting off the Island?

(It's reasonable to assume that the 2 people are going to be from the main cast and not random 'redshirts' from the other crash survivors. Of course, the two could be Paulo and Nikki, dug up to provide cover for the story :biggrin: )

I think there is definitely a reason that their "story" includes two people that were alive on the island but are now dead. Perhaps they need six witnesses to: a) the fact that these people were indeed on the plane; b) something they said before they died that they wanted the world to hear; c) they wanted to place somebody ON the plane that wasn't necessarily on the manifest but is now confirmed dead with six witnesses (i.e., Ben Linus or one of his many aliases, Desmond, Juliet); d) Maybe they needed to tell the world "before a crew member died they said BLANK," which implicates Oceanic in wrongful doing leading to the crash. Or maybe dying crew member explained why they went off course.

I don't know, but they could make up anything and people would believe them.

At first I was sure their story was Claire was alive and gave birth and she clearly stated (with six witnesses) "If I die, I want Kate to raise my baby." I feel, if a you adopt a child, especially at a young age, you call the kid "my son" and "my grandson" (the people I know with adopted children do), and of course Kate's mother would want to meet "her grandson" before she dies. However, I believe that scenario is way too messy. The couple in L.A. who were adopting that baby could take her to court over that, right? I do think one quick suspicion and a DNA test will out Kate if she's passing the kid off as her own, however.

Remember what Claire's psychic said about don't let anybody else raise your baby? Oooops.

Regardless of the baby, I think there is some message that the survivors needed to pass along to the rest of the world, weather its true or not. I'm trying to think of what that is exactly.

This is just one girl's theory... :redface:

How can it not be Michael and Walt??? He said 8 survived, we know 6 are going to be taken off by the freighties(Jack, Kate, Sayid, Hurley and Aaron? and possibly one or two more depending on Aaron's status). What two other people do we know who left the island and now also have to be telling the same lie as everyone else?

Yes, we know that Michael got off the island, but there's no reason to think that anybody in the "outside" knows. Besides, the official story (from Jack's testimony) is that the "other two" died on the island, which doesn't fit in at all with Michael.

Im with DarkReality, I dont really think it matters. It was just a number.

Besides, If Jack had said "we crashed, 72 survived, but only 8 made it off the island" it raises waaay too many questions.

I think that Sayid is not one of the Oceanic 6 now. We know he gets off the island, but perhaps not the same way as the others, and is not a "celebrated" survivor. After all, Sayid and Desmond are now missing on the helicopter, and Desmond wouldn't be one of the 6 either, since he wasn't on the plane.
No: Sayid identifies himself as one of the Oceanic 6 on the golf course, just before the kills the guy.

the oceanic 6 + desmond + julliett = 8 survivors

Who are the "extra two" of C8?

Perhaps two people who everyone knows about, but who didn't make it back:


This could be the big return of Nicky & Paulo!!! :rolleyes:

nah i think they are dead and buried or should i say buried and dead

Jack's lying. Eight people survived the crash, two died on the island. It helps make the whole lie more believable. If two people, who they could say were seriously injured, couldn't survive three months on the island - it really does help their story. Who were the supposed "two"? I really don't think it matters. It's not that big of a mystery. Jack was lying.

No it isn't. Bali is in the Indian Ocean.

http://www.balifriendly.com/balimap/

"Located at the heart of the Indonesian archipelago, it’s north coast faces the Bali Sea, while the Indian Ocean laps the southern coast."


https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/zn.html

The Bali Sea is part of the Pacific Ocean.


So Bali is another location where one coast borders the Indian Ocean and one borders
the Pacific Ocean.

Did anyone confirm that the other two survivors died? Could be that they are Walt and Michael and some story was maybe made up about them drifting on the open sea and being picked up by a ship?

Unlikely though. The flight was thought to have been lost with all hands when the crash site footage showed up some months (at least :biggrin:) after the crash so it would be difficult to explain wjy Walt and Michael had taken so long to appear.

I still think it's most likely that two of the people came off the Island as dead bodies..... leaving six alive and rescued.

In the court room Jack says ' 8 survived but 2 didn't make it '

I think their false story is that two died after the crash on the island, and O6 survived from the crash.

I think Desmond gets rescued by Penny and they flee to a secret place. He can't be part of O8 either, since he wasn't on the flight roster to begin with.

What if 8 people are supposed to come back but 2 die in transit, hence Oceanic 6? Since they are being called the Oceanic 6, I don't think it's possible that the other 2 are alive. This is also possible since Jack didn't get to finish telling his story.

I guess that the two are bodies found. They had to know some probably died while trying to survive on the island. And that would be the extra two. Who they are..will be interesting to know. I just wonder how everyone else is forgotten.

The only reason I can come up with that explains Jack's testimony including eight initial crash survivors, and not six, is that somehow the "outside world" has learned of the other two. Possibly, in the process of "coming back to the real world", two perished and now they are forced to explain the bodies.

Or, whoever arranged for the rescue want everyone to think these two are dead when they're not. It's almost as if those behind the O6 story are trying to deceive someone who knows more than the general public.

Who knows...

The only reason I can come up with that explains Jack's testimony including eight initial crash survivors, and not six, is that somehow the "outside world" has learned of the other two. Possibly, in the process of "coming back to the real world", two perished and now they are forced to explain the bodies.

Or, whoever arranged for the rescue want everyone to think these two are dead when they're not. It's almost as if those behind the O6 story are trying to deceive someone who knows more than the general public.

Who knows...

Apparently, as far as the outside world was concerned everyone on that flight was dead and at the bottom of the Sunda Trench.

I don't see what they'd have to gain by making out that 8 survived but then 2 died later, in terms of making people think those two people were dead.

"The two may have died in the "real world" shortly upon return?" he says grasping at straws. "And now there are bodies to deal with?"

Pardon me, but I am not at all worried about the alleged Oceanic 6 or 8, we already saw many characters made it off the island, and in the neXt two or three episodes we will find out all of who made it off the island...WHAT IS MUCH, MUCH MORE INTERESTING, however, is WHY Jack said what he said??? There were millions of ways that he could cover for Kate, millions, and this sounds simply symptomatic to me.

Which means, I AM SURE BEN HAS A LOT TO DO WITH THIS. "The deserted island???"
Obviously, Jack doesn't want anyone to know there are people there and there were people there...aka Tho Others...What makes me even more sure that it was somehow Ben's idea, blackmail, eXtortion or whatever, is the fact that Jack said only 8 of them survived. That is just too convenient, because had he said that 70+ people were alive, he would never be able to rationally eXplain why and how 60 or so people died, and too many questions would emerge, and he probably wouldn't be able to cover for The Others and the Island.

Honestly, I cannot effing wait for the Ben-centric episode, I am sure all of our answers lie there...Because whatever is happening right now has nothing to do with Island, but rather with what they are doing with Ben off the island (even though they are trying to go back, but that is still not happening)...

The question is, why does it have to be part of their "story" that eight people survived the plane crash but (presumably) two of them died on the island?
Because 2 people got word out about the plot to the rest of the world, and had to be terminated with extreme prejudice, probably by Kate's order. In other words, she wasn't saving anyone, she was killing them. It's even possible that one or both of them were killed before they could board and their bodies were hidden in Australia. Since the world had heard from them, they had to be accounted for.

They gave us a clue when they told us that Mr. Eko had killed 2 ostensible kidnappers. They weren't kidnappers, they were leakers. Mr. Eko is a character the makers of Lost made up largely to be an "echo" of Kate. (When it became clear the series would be running longer than they'd previously thought, they made up yet another echo of Kate, giving her the more specific name "Nikki", referring to "Nicky" Lillie.)

Please see my "8 - 2 squealers = O6" thread in General Speculation, and for background see the Get Lost files (http://users.bestweb.net/~robgood/teach), especially this one from 2 years ago (http://users.bestweb.net/~robgood/teach/GetLost_3.html); search for the string, "kate knew everything" in that one if you're in a hurry.

Robert

I've posted my ideas (http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=89985) about the six vs. eight in General Theories. I think as many as eight make it off of craphole island. The eight concoct (or are forced to concoct) a cover story to explain where they've been all this time and are placed (what if they crashed again?) on another island to be "found" (being found marooned on an island is the only believable way they can return to the real world). I suspect only six survive to the final rescue (if Claire dies before the final rescue, this could explain why Kate has Aaron).

Remember what Claire's psychic said about don't let anybody else raise your baby? Oooops.


Nice catch! I had forgotten about Claire's visit to a psychic. Wonder if this might lend even less credence to Claire's giving Aaron over to Kate, voluntarily, to raise. Either it was done under duress, or indicates her upcoming demise.

At this point, I'm really hoping Vincent made it off the island! :biggrin:


Cheers--
hiccup

Do we know why Kate was in such a nice house? She seemed pretty well off. Was it settlement money from Oceanic?

Dr. Suds, do you agree then that when Kate asked Miles "do you know who I am?" she wasn't worried about him knowing that she was Kate Austin the fugitive?"

What if Sayid is not one of the Oceanic 6? Hear me out. Did anyone see Sayid with another lostie during the flash forwards? I didn’t—just Ben in the last scene. So, obviously Ben is not on the island in the future and he is controlling Sayid. In current lost-land, Sayid is on some helicopter with the pilot, the red-head anthropologist and a corpse. Maybe Ben intercepts Sayid. Any thoughts?:redface:

There's no mystery here. Jack said that 8 people survived the crash, but Kate couldnt save two of them when he got cut off.
8 - 2 = 6. As in the Oceanic 6.

This is obviously their cover story, the one that Kate says he tells so often she thinks he's starting to believe it.

Not to be rude, but I cannot believe that after 15 pages of the SAME thing, some people are just not getting it.

Your fellow posters in this thread are asking you to STOP throwing out names for these O(-2) people. There ARE NO -2 survivors because the story is a lie.

The question is: Why does Jack's lie have to include a part about two additional passengers surviving the initial crash but not making it back home?

Maybe another thread should be started for those who believe that Jack's story is true, and there everyone can speculate about which two people died in Jack's story.

The question is: Why does Jack's lie have to include a part about two additional passengers surviving the initial crash but not making it back home?



It could be because two people who are rescued don't make it back home alive. So we're
curious who those two passengers are who died. Presumably everyone else is living
happily on the island.

Not to be rude, but I cannot believe that after 15 pages of the SAME thing, some people are just not getting it.

Your fellow posters in this thread are asking you to STOP throwing out names for these O(-2) people. There ARE NO -2 survivors because the story is a lie.

The question is: Why does Jack's lie have to include a part about two additional passengers surviving the initial crash but not making it back home?

Maybe another thread should be started for those who believe that Jack's story is true, and there everyone can speculate about which two people died in Jack's story.
I think the story was fabricated in a way that these other 2 survivors had to be a part of it. Like maybe they claim that Locke survived, which is how they had knives... but then he died while trying to kill a boar (in a wheelchair!?!?). Maybe they claim that Claire initially survived but mysteriously died in childbirth, hence Kate's adoption of the baby (I'm not trying to say this is what happened these are just examples of why they might lie).

These lies bring up A LOT of questions, no doubt. I'm sure the lies have a great deal to do with Oceanic's cover-up and general sketchy business practices.

Dr. Suds, do you agree then that when Kate asked Miles "do you know who I am?" she wasn't worried about him knowing that she was Kate Austin the fugitive?"
Yes, I agree with that. That's just her cover identity.

Not to be rude, but I cannot believe that after 15 pages of the SAME thing, some people are just not getting it.

Your fellow posters in this thread are asking you to STOP throwing out names for these O(-2) people. There ARE NO -2 survivors because the story is a lie.

The question is: Why does Jack's lie have to include a part about two additional passengers surviving the initial crash but not making it back home?

Maybe another thread should be started for those who believe that Jack's story is true, and there everyone can speculate about which two people died in Jack's story.

:clapping: I agree. A lie is a lie. We know that Jack is lying. It seems more believable that 8 people survived the crash and two later died (from injuries or whatever) than that 6 people survived and only those six were completely uninjured and lived on the island. The odds are pretty good that if there was a plane crash that had survivirs and crashed on a deserted island, there would be people that were sufficiently injured so that they they would die later. It just gives his cover story more juice.

So, I've been thinking about this all weekend, mulling over it with friends. And, of all the value that Eggtown brought us (Miles as the Spy, Playing Cards, Aaron, etc) what I found MOST intriguing was Jack's testamony. They story goes, 8 people survived the crash but only 6 made it off the island. We know that the story is made up, but what's interesting is the number 8.......why 8?!?! I thought it would be run to talk about, so here are my theories:

Theory A: Jack just picked a number and it has no significance.

Theory B: Penny Saw Charlie so they have to cover their tracks (even though this doesn't make since considering the 4 rescueres have seen everyone now-unless they all die!)

Theory C: They brought back 2 dead bodies so they have to make a cover story.

I fully believe that Theory C is the correct answer, but I'm boggled by WHO are the dead bodies. Could it be Shannon and Boone, dug up for a pointless reason? Or, along those same lines, could it be Nikki and Paulo again dug up for no reason? Is it Libby and Ana Lucia because they want to prosecute Michael? What I truly believe is that 8 people make it off the island onto the frieghter and only 6 make it home. Which begs the question, who are the two casualties. I believe Clair to be one of them. Desmond is my favorite character and I fully trust he was telling Charlie the truth and he sees Claire (and Aaron) get on that helicopter. Only, she is killed on the frieghter. Maybe a war breaks out on the Frieghter and while the losties try to take control they loose a couple people. Either way, I believe that Jack used the number 8 specifically and if he didn't have the bodies to prove it, he could have said 6 and left it at that. So, what do you guys think, who are the "Oceanic 8"? neo

Part of Claires message:

We've done our best to live on this island. Some of us have come to accept we may never leave it. Not all of us have survived since the crash, but there is new life, and with it, hope.



She doesnt sign her name, so anyone could have taken credit if it was found. But does imply some who survived have since died. So thats at least 2 who need to die post crash to justify it.

good point Joepace, if this message is found, then it would discredit the testimony of Jack, did the message with the bird include how many people survived the crash?

I've posted my ideas (http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=89985) about the six vs. eight in General Theories. I think as many as eight make it off of craphole island. The eight concoct (or are forced to concoct) a cover story to explain where they've been all this time and are placed (what if they crashed again?) on another island to be "found" (being found marooned on an island is the only believable way they can return to the real world). I suspect only six survive to the final rescue (if Claire dies before the final rescue, this could explain why Kate has Aaron).

This is exactly what I was thinking. It just makes sense. Probably the whole purpose of the lie is to hide the "real" island from the outside world.

Kate's lawyer said that she nearly died of starvation before being rescued. The implications are that the O6 were not in such good shape when they were found. Two of their group may have died while they were waiting to be discovered. And the sad irony is that whoever these two are, if they had stayed on the "real" island they would still be alive.

This is exactly what I was thinking. It just makes sense. Probably the whole purpose of the lie is to hide the "real" island from the outside world.

Kate's lawyer said that she nearly died of starvation before being rescued. The implications are that the O6 were not in such good shape when they were found. Two of their group may have died while they were waiting to be discovered. And the sad irony is that whoever these two are, if they had stayed on the "real" island they would still be alive.

But...isn't Kate's lawyer just going by the story that was spread about the miraculous survival of the O6. For me, every single thing that we learn about what happened to the O6 are lies. We know that the O6 are being forced to lie about what happened to them from start to finish.

There is no evidence that there were an O8 until two died. It is jsut part of the lies that they were told to say.

Though...I do think it would be much more interesting if I was proved wrong.;)

But...isn't Kate's lawyer just going by the story that was spread about the miraculous survival of the O6. For me, every single thing that we learn about what happened to the O6 are lies. We know that the O6 are being forced to lie about what happened to them from start to finish.

There is no evidence that there were an O8 until two died. It is jsut part of the lies that they were told to say.

Though...I do think it would be much more interesting if I was proved wrong.;)

Are they being forced to lie - or did they concoct the lie themselves to protect the secret of the Island?

The whole "8 survived but 2 didn't make it" thing suggests that 2 dead bodies need to be explained. That isn't really consistent with a planned, staged operation by the bad guys.

Maybe they weren't taken off as part of a deal but somehow managed to escape and really were rescued off another island. Once in the full glare of the world's media, they can't all be taken down by the bad guys so they lie about what happened and an uneasy standoff develops. Clearly Jack is no longer comfortable with this and nor is Hurley. Kate seems to be happy enough and wants to look after Aaron as her #1 priority. Sayid works in secret with Ben to take the bad guys down.

Are they being forced to lie - or did they concoct the lie themselves to protect the secret of the Island?

Well nobody was holding a gun to Jack's head at the trial...

but based on what we have seen over the last three seasons and how well we have gotten to know the characters,, it seems more logical that they are being forced to tell this lie. We have seen Jack's torment over the lie and whatever happened on the island in last season's finale, we have heard Hurley say that he is still keeping the secret, we have also seen that Sayid is taking orders from Ben. I don't think that this lie was something that they made up on their own.

But...isn't Kate's lawyer just going by the story that was spread about the miraculous survival of the O6. For me, every single thing that we learn about what happened to the O6 are lies. We know that the O6 are being forced to lie about what happened to them from start to finish.

There is no evidence that there were an O8 until two died. It is jsut part of the lies that they were told to say.

Though...I do think it would be much more interesting if I was proved wrong.;)

Well nobody was holding a gun to Jack's head at the trial...

but based on what we have seen over the last three seasons and how well we have gotten to know the characters,, it seems more logical that they are being forced to tell this lie. We have seen Jack's torment over the lie and whatever happened on the island in last season's finale, we have heard Hurley say that he is still keeping the secret, we have also seen that Sayid is taking orders from Ben. I don't think that this lie was something that they made up on their own.
Agreed on both points Molly 1977. I'm pretty certain at this point that they are being forced to lie about pretty much everything following the disappearance of Oceanic 815, and so far the only reason I've been able to come up with is that it either protects Island or people or both.

As for there having been 8 people who were found on another island only to have 2 die, that just seems kinda far fetched to me at this point.

Part of Claires message:

We've done our best to live on this island. Some of us have come to accept we may never leave it. Not all of us have survived since the crash, but there is new life, and with it, hope.


She doesnt sign her name, so anyone could have taken credit if it was found.
But it couldn't've been found, because Charlie made sure the bird left without it, as we saw.

Sun dies in childbirth, and Jin commits suicide. PAIK/Whidmore bring their bodies back so they can be given proper korean death rituals.

After reading some of the posts in this thread, I came up with the idea that Desmond and Julie won't be counted in the Oceanic 6. So that makes it eight survivors of the island. The Oceanic 6 consisting: Kate, Sayid, Jack, Hugo, Walt, and Michael. The other two are Desmond and Julie since they were already on the island. Idk if this was already said.

Oceanic 6 + "Kate's" Baby + Sun's Baby

Sorry, I didn't have time to read through the entire thread. (Most of it though.) I think the eight survivor story is a logical necessity because they can't account for Michael and Walt. If they said six survived, and then Michael and Walt show up somewhere, then their cover story would be blown.

So, in order to protect the possibility that Michael and Walt show up someday, they needed to say there were eight survivors. If they do show up, then the O-6 can just say "Oh, we thought you died."

And, like others, I think the interesting part of this story is the fact that this much effort was put into developing a story.

Sorry, I didn't have time to read through the entire thread. (Most of it though.) I think the eight survivor story is a logical necessity because they can't account for Michael and Walt. If they said six survived, and then Michael and Walt show up somewhere, then their cover story would be blown.

So, in order to protect the possibility that Michael and Walt show up someday, they needed to say there were eight survivors. If they do show up, then the O-6 can just say "Oh, we thought you died."

And, like others, I think the interesting part of this story is the fact that this much effort was put into developing a story.

That makes alot of sense i was thinking of something like that but i realized that who else would have gotten off the island? my best guess would be Desmond and Julie, they both have people outside the island that they desperately want to see. Desmond wants to see Penny and Julie wants to see her sister. I believe that they might be part of the eight survivors of the crash. If the Oceanic six is lying about what happened in the island, why can't they lie on how Desmond and Julie got there.

Not sure if this buried in the thread or in another but hasn't the rest of the world been told (and seen picutres) of the intact plane sitting on the bottom of the ocean? How do we now explain survivors on the island? Jack said "we crashed on an island"...?

Sorry, I didn't have time to read through the entire thread. (Most of it though.) I think the eight survivor story is a logical necessity because they can't account for Michael and Walt. If they said six survived, and then Michael and Walt show up somewhere, then their cover story would be blown.

So, in order to protect the possibility that Michael and Walt show up someday, they needed to say there were eight survivors. If they do show up, then the O-6 can just say "Oh, we thought you died."

And, like others, I think the interesting part of this story is the fact that this much effort was put into developing a story.

This is a good idea! I can't really discount the possibility, especially since the writers love to give us misdirection. We are all assuming that Jack's line referred to the extra 2 dying, but that could be a red herring, as he was stopped by Kate before he could finish. He could have meant to finish the sentence by saying "but they built a raft and left the island. We never saw them again."

The story Jack tells is completely fictional.

The show has been running since 2001 you all should know that there were 48 survivors not 8 or 6.

Jack tells the story about the 8 survivors, because only 6 of the REAL 48 survivors leave the island ( The O6). These other 2 people are not people we know, they too are fictional, in my opinion.

The reason that Jack tells the story is a mystery there are two explanation's I can think of are:

1. The people who stay on the island don't want to be found and agreed with the 6 who left to tell this story so no one comes looking for them.

2. Jack does not want the public to know that there are people still alive on the island and that HE left them behind.

I think one of the "8" could have been Claire, who could have died in childbirth, therefore Kate takes responsibility for the child out of necessity.

Sorry if this is a dup... I didn't read the whole thread.

Sorry, I didn't have time to read through the entire thread. (Most of it though.) I think the eight survivor story is a logical necessity because they can't account for Michael and Walt. If they said six survived, and then Michael and Walt show up somewhere, then their cover story would be blown.

So, in order to protect the possibility that Michael and Walt show up someday, they needed to say there were eight survivors. If they do show up, then the O-6 can just say "Oh, we thought you died."
"She tried to save the other two, but they didn't..." Hard to figure how to fit that into the scenario above. "But they didn't...want her help"? Nah.

The story is made up about the extra 'two' people. It would be normal in a crash to have some people that survive temporarily - then die. So the Oceanic six is saying exactly that . . . there were 8 of us alive after the crash, but 2 died and only the 6 of us survived.

They have to make their story believable.

a. They can't tell the truth about the island, that 48 people lived and some are
still behind .... the island has powers .... blah blah blah

b. They can't say everybody died except us 6, and our injuries were so mild
we all survived.

Saying 8 were originally alive, but 2 didn't make it, is much more believable. Its part of their cover-up.

"She tried to save the other two, but they didn't..." Hard to figure how to fit that into the scenario above. "But they didn't...want her help"? Nah.

You can't just assume that Jack was going to say something that would contradict my theory. How about "but they didn't stick around long enough?" How about "but they didn't come back from the woods one day?"

Simply put, Jack's statement is open-ended enough that we can't predict what he was going to say. The "gut feeling" you might get in response to anything we put at the end of the sentence is just a function of your feeling about the proposition in general.

In other words, your own views of any given theory will govern how you react to any proposed ending to Jack's sentence. If you like a theory, then it will sound plausible, and if you don't like a theory, then it will sound like hooey.

So, in essence, the strongest argument you've made is that you don't like my theory. Fine. Your disagreement is noted. (As I read over this post before hitting "submit," it sounds harsher than I intend. I'm just in a hurry, so please don't read this as an attack.)

The fact that the story was completely fabricated and recited by Jack is one problem. However, I get the feeling that there are two possibilities (and they've been addressed previously in this thread): the survivors made up the story based upon some agreed upon reason OR whoever "rescued" them insisted on this story as the way to go.

Then again, there's always the chance that every other Oceanic passenger dies at one point except for the O6. A story is concocted because of this to waylay the guilt.

The fact that the story was completely fabricated and recited by Jack is one problem. However, I get the feeling that there are two possibilities (and they've been addressed previously in