The Man behind the curtain? The Anti-Christ? I'm so confused.

Good question. He must be very powerful and/or very formidable, judging by the way Miles said it. With his stack of currency and passports, and his time traveling magic box, there is probably nothing he can't do.

I would love to hear more speculation on this topic.

Ben is the guy who knows the island secrets.

Perhaps he's the Wizard of Oz after all.

Maybe I heard him wrong, but I thought at first Miles said "I want to know WHERE you are"... as if the Ben he was talking to was a projection? Did I hear that completely wrong?

Kaiser Souza

I've thought for a long time that Ben is pretty much the savior of humanity until the person that John Locke isn't comes along. Maybe that's Aaron.

Good question. He must be very powerful and/or very formidable, judging by the way Miles said it. With his stack of currency and passports, and his time traveling magic box, there is probably nothing he can't do.
.

Nothing he can't do . . . except have his delicate spinal surgery in a real hospital.

I thought it was very interesting when Ben says to him "I am kind of in the middle of something here (or something like that)" and Miles kind of understood that. Like Ben is in the middle of his "experiment" or something.

Nothing he can't do . . . except have his delicate spinal surgery in a real hospital.


Very interesting... Ben manipulated everyone on the Island to go along with his plan to get Jack to perform the surgery. If Ben is so connected on the outside with all of these passports and currency why didn't he just leave the Island to have spinal surgery ?

Very interesting... Ben manipulated everyone on the Island to go along with his plan to get Jack to perform the surgery. If Ben is so connected on the outside with all of these passports and currency why didn't he just leave the Island to have spinal surgery ?

This was coverred in another thread in The Economist forum....

Spinal surgery is no joke... long recovery time, etc... . not exactly an outpatient procedure... If he got it in the hopsital, his people would have known that he could leave the Island at will... something he clearly wants to keep on the DL. Furthermore, he had the issue of his people not being "committed" to the Island, like Locke is (Man From Tallahassee, and One Of Us). Leaving the Island would demonstrate weakness in his already potentially compromised leadership position... He also had his hands full dealing with that problem and the ongoing confrontations with the Losties. Basically, it was not a good time for Ben to leave the Island. Plus, he had a spinal surgeon (Jack) available to him on Island, and the Island would potentially speed up his recovery time. So, in light of all that, he stuck around, it makes sense.

Kaiser Souza

lol.....great movie

I thought it was very interesting when Ben says to him "I am kind of in the middle of something here (or something like that)" and Miles kind of understood that. Like Ben is in the middle of his "experiment" or something.

Wow, I thought it was pretty clear. Ben said that as he held up his bound hands. :eek2:

Very interesting... Ben manipulated everyone on the Island to go along with his plan to get Jack to perform the surgery. If Ben is so connected on the outside with all of these passports and currency why didn't he just leave the Island to have spinal surgery ?

Maybe he is vulnerable on the "outside"

The Man behind the curtain? The Anti-Christ? I'm so confused.

Well, 1st off, he's the guy who killed all the Dharma people on the island. That makes him fairly imfamous. When he leaves the island he could still be locating more Dharma people around the world and killing them all off as well???

I think there has to be more to it than just Ben killing off Dharma people in the purge.
In his flashback, we saw him turn from a janitor's son into the one who made contact with the hostiles and effectively wiped out Dharma. He became the one with the power on the island, he probably discovered a lot more about its secrets, but that wouldn't explain the freighter folk's interest in him.
Neither would it explain how Ben got his hands on 3.2 Million - in cash. I think there's more to Ben than we've seen yet, and it started after the purge. We don't know yet who he really is, but my guess is that once we find out, it will be a :jawdrop::jawdrop::jawdrop:moment. Either there are some really powerful people behind him, or he himself has become the really rich and powerful guy who is weaving a web that's far bigger than we initially thought.
Gotta love that Ben:heartben:.

I think there has to be more to it than just Ben killing off Dharma people in the purge.
In his flashback, we saw him turn from a janitor's son into the one who made contact with the hostiles and effectively wiped out Dharma. He became the one with the power on the island, he probably discovered a lot more about its secrets, but that wouldn't explain the freighter folk's interest in him.
Neither would it explain how Ben got his hands on 3.2 Million - in cash. I think there's more to Ben than we've seen yet, and it started after the purge. We don't know yet who he really is, but my guess is that once we find out, it will be a :jawdrop::jawdrop::jawdrop:moment. Either there are some really powerful people behind him, or he himself has become the really rich and powerful guy who is weaving a web that's far bigger than we initially thought.
Gotta love that Ben.

I agree and I think we've been given a huge load of clues over time that there's a much bigger game going on than just the island antics. When you consider things like:


Claire being given a ticket on flight 815 and then being told she couldn't take any other flight.
Desmond being lectured by Ms. Hawking that he has to go to the island and turn the failsafe.
A freighter-load of outsiders suddenly appearing and frightening even Ben
...and a huge load of other things, we see that there's some struggle happening in the background that Our Heroes aren't yet aware of. I've been saying for a long time that to make the struggle harder for us to figure out, that it's got three, rather than two sides, and that we've coincidentally gotten glimpses of three people who are wealthy and powerful and who are standing ready to be revealed as major players in the story.

These three represent the one who controlled the island in the past, the one who controls it in the present, and the one who seeks to control it in the future. Hanso clearly had it in the past, when the Dharma initiative was running. Widmore has been backing Ben, supplied the weapons used in the purge, and has financed his operations there, and represents the present control. Paik is behind the freighter, and has been searching for the island.

With the appearance of the freighter, Miles' reference to Ben's power and finances, and Ben's off-island assasination operation with Sayid, we're finally being given some glimpses of the actual struggle in process.

These three represent the one who controlled the island in the past, the one who controls it in the present, and the one who seeks to control it in the future. Hanso clearly had it in the past, when the Dharma initiative was running. Widmore has been backing Ben, supplied the weapons used in the purge, and has financed his operations there, and represents the present control. Paik is behind the freighter, and has been searching for the island.

With the appearance of the freighter, Miles' reference to Ben's power and finances, and Ben's off-island assasination operation with Sayid, we're finally being given some glimpses of the actual struggle in process.

Wesb, fascinating theory; it accounts for the fact that there are three powerful industrialists in the story, which might otherwise seem like overkill. My question is: if Ben is working for Widmore, who is painted as a pretty nasty SOB in Des's backstory, and Sayid is working for Ben, doesn't that put Sayid in the camp of one baddie vs.another baddie (Paik, say)? This makes Ben and Sayid kind of underlings in the service of a bad guy and kind of diminishes both. I have to admit I was thinking if Ben is ordering hits etc it might be in the interest of a good cause. So if Ben and Sayid are just baddie henchmen, is there going to be yet another player who is a good guy, who can help Jack and co. get back to the island and defeat the various baddies once and for all?

Wesb, fascinating theory; it accounts for the fact that there are three powerful industrialists in the story, which might otherwise seem like overkill. My question is: if Ben is working for Widmore, who is painted as a pretty nasty SOB in Des's backstory, and Sayid is working for Ben, doesn't that put Sayid in the camp of one baddie vs.another baddie (Paik, say)? This makes Ben and Sayid kind of underlings in the service of a bad guy and kind of diminishes both. I have to admit I was thinking if Ben is ordering hits etc it might be in the interest of a good cause. So if Ben and Sayid are just baddie henchmen, is there going to be yet another player who is a good guy, who can help Jack and co. get back to the island and defeat the various baddies once and for all?

Well, thanks for the compliment. If you'd like to see a detailed treatment of the idea, follow the link in my sig for a thread that backs it up with _tons_ of stuff from the actual story. For example, if Paik is behind the freighter and Ben knew who his enemy was, the first thing he'd do is try to grab Sun as a hostage. In fact, he tried that very thing with the failed attempt to take the pregnant women. (In any other situation it would have been ridiculous to waste people and resources on something like that when he'd just heard that his enemies might find the island at any moment, yet that's exactly what he did...)

Also, the theory posits that flight 815 was intentionally brought to the island. Having learned this was going to happen, Paik had Jin carry a watch to be delivered through that flight. The watch actually has a transponder in it to help him locate the island. Unfortunately, Jin gave the watch to Michael, who carried it off the island, and it'll be through this that the freighties locate Michael out in that big, big ocean.

Anyway, in answer to your question, Ben is indeed working for a bad guy, though Sayid's bitter comment at the end of "The Economist" suggests that he doesn't like it or want to be doing what he's doing. At the point we see him, Sayid may not have any connection to Widmore's organization outside of Ben, and he may think that Ben is as high as the hierarchy goes. In any case, Ben is holding something over him that's yet to be revealed.

Don't forget the fourth uber-wealthy guy we know about.... Hurley.

Under this theory, could he be the white knight savior that funds the rediscovery of the island and defeat of these bad forces?

another mark for stupid Kate- why didn't she ask Miles who Ben was? If she was deciding to stay on the island indefinitely due to her status as a wanted woman in the "real world", don't you think she'd be a little interested in knowing who the heck this all powerful leader of the Others truly is? Noooooooo- she lets Miles go back to his holding cell without any questions. Idiot girl.

Don't forget the fourth uber-wealthy guy we know about.... Hurley.

Under this theory, could he be the white knight savior that funds the rediscovery of the island and defeat of these bad forces?

It's possible he'll still have money when he comes back, though he did say that it was going to be gone when he returned because he had been presumed dead. Perhaps some of it can be recovered; perhaps not. If so, perhaps Hurley will pursue it; perhaps not.

But Abbadon's comment about upgrading Hurley might suggest (though it doesn't prove) that Hurley didn't have the funds for a better place. We'll see...

He is the primary agent of Jacob (aka the Devil) and therefore has special abilities, and ticks, and is a great liar. But (like Sayid does some time before his FF) Ben has sold his soul, and is not a free man.

Who is Ben Linus?

Before I try and say anything, I dont believe Miles knows very much apart from what he was briefed on by his employer(s). All he cares about is the cash and something else. If he talks to spirits only to relieve them of "stashed" cash, then I wouldnt be surprised if Miles wasnt after the spirit of Magnus Hanso to see if there was some kind of a gold or diamond stash somewhere on the Black Rock. Heck, he could be after Jacob's spirit to try and get the Island's secrets for all I know...;)

But Ben...

I think Ben was groomed by Richard Alpert to put a stop to TDI's research of the Island's unique properties. I think they were abusing them, or were endangering Jacob or the Island by doing so. For whatever reason, it took at least two decades until Ben was old enough to carry out the task and set up everybody in TDI for the purge. I mean, he was the inside man for the job, so he had to manipulate eveybody into a scenario that would expose them all to the gas. Why wait so long?

I think the hostiles wanted TDI to create the technology that would allow travel to and from the Island. Once that was controlled, access could be shutdown to the outside world and the Island and it's secrets could be safe again. For such an act (the purge) to not only be tolerated by the Others, but approved must mean that whatever the Island or Jacob's secrets are, they are worth the lives of at least 40 people, and frustrating a lot of powerfull men off Island.

So it's not Ben's fault really he became what he is today. He saw TDI exploit the Island. He was groomed to watch, observe and deceive. Ben played mousetrap with TDI. If he shut down his financers, and had technology to leave the Island, then I can see him playing chess with the outside world scamming rich powerfull folks...coming back to the safety of the Island...Whatta guy Ben is!

But seriously...after the economist eppy, I think Ben wants to pull the plug on all who know of the Island for good. I think Ben is thinking that eliminating all that financed the Island's operations will forever seal it's location from the outside, or something like that.
Can a secret like that be erased???

Bring on some Island backstory! Back to the grim reality.....
Eric.

It seemed like Ben was really frightened when Miles first asked him "Do you know who I am? Do you know who I work for?" Ben only replied with a terse "Yes."

Once Miles told him that he wanted money, though, Ben relaxed and resumed his usuall manipulative snarkiness. Love the "Why $3.2? Why not 3.3 or 3.4?"

I think Ben recognizes a formidable adversary in whoever Miles works for.

This was coverred in another thread in The Economist forum....

Spinal surgery is no joke... long recovery time, etc... . not exactly an outpatient procedure... If he got it in the hopsital, his people would have known that he could leave the Island at will... something he clearly wants to keep on the DL. Furthermore, he had the issue of his people not being "committed" to the Island, like Locke is (Man From Tallahassee, and One Of Us). Leaving the Island would demonstrate weakness in his already potentially compromised leadership position... He also had his hands full dealing with that problem and the ongoing confrontations with the Losties. Basically, it was not a good time for Ben to leave the Island. Plus, he had a spinal surgeon (Jack) available to him on Island, and the Island would potentially speed up his recovery time. So, in light of all that, he stuck around, it makes sense.

Thank you for clearing up my late night post episode post

I think Ben recognizes a formidable adversary in whoever Miles works for.

I agree. Remember that Miles also said something like "you know who's spent a lot of time and energy trying to find you."

My buddy and I were discussing it and came to the conclusion that Ben is a Whitmore. This would explain the money and a couple of other things. His centric was just to manipulate us.

My buddy and I were discussing it and came to the conclusion that Ben is a Whitmore. This would explain the money and a couple of other things. His centric was just to manipulate us.

I can't buy this. That has never been the MO of the show and that would ruin it completely for me if they start having entire episodes negated as "twists". They would never waste our time and an entire episode just to send us on a wild goose chase.

We saw Ben be born, we saw his mother and father. He's Ben Linus, the son of a drunk, abusive Dharma Initiave janitor. However Ben got his resources, and it still very well may be from Whitmore, it is NOT a family connection.

another mark for stupid Kate- why didn't she ask Miles who Ben was?

Now, now. Since when have they ever asked pertinent questions like that? You can't have the Losties actually doing stuff like that, it would be out of character. :34853_huh:

And by the way, it's Widmore, not Whitmore.

My buddy and I were discussing it and came to the conclusion that Ben is a Whitmore. This would explain the money and a couple of other things. His centric was just to manipulate us.

My theory contains elements that's close to this. I don't see Ben as related to Widmore, but I do think he's working for Widmore. All along we may have presumed that Ben was the absolute leader on the island, and do I think he is something of a cult-leader to a lot of the Others. But we have to consider that Alpert and company didn't just "whip up" their poison gas weapons and gas masks in the jungle, out of mangoes and sea urchins. Those things were supplied from outside by -- someone. Consider that amateur mechanics can't keep a submarine running like Hurley did with his Camaro. Keeping a sub running requires specialized skills, enormous costs, and lots of spare parts. Funding outside organizations -- even if they're just empty shells -- like Hererat Aviation and Mittelos Bioscience takes cash. And if those things didn't attract our attentions enough, the fact that Ben can plausibly bargain with Miles over sums of money running into the millions shows Ben has some big outside support.

Widmore is the easiest candidate for this support. It explains how Penny had enough information about the island to set up the Arctic listening station and to know what to listen for. It explains how Penny could be right there on the communications link the minute Charlie shut the jamming down. It explains why she asked Charlie how he got that frequency -- a question you only ask if you know that frequency is special. Her father's organization, which has been in contact with Ben and knows all about the island -- has a few security leaks.

I can't buy this. That has never been the MO of the show and that would ruin it completely for me if they start having entire episodes negated as "twists". They would never waste our time and an entire episode just to send us on a wild goose chase.

We saw Ben be born, we saw his mother and father. He's Ben Linus, the son of a drunk, abusive Dharma Initiave janitor. However Ben got his resources, and it still very well may be from Whitmore, it is NOT a family connection.

Not all the episodes just his it plays to his character. All the above mentioned reason you cited are why I don't think his episode is true. He has been on that Island, only limited resources and education available, and he doubles as James Bond. You also need to remember his centric was being told to Locke someone he has always manipulates.

Kaiser Souza

I think he proved that he's at least part kaiser souza with the whole infiltrating the Losties bit. :)
100%
I agree and I think we've been given a huge load of clues over time that there's a much bigger game going on than just the island antics. When you consider things like:

Claire being given a ticket on flight 815 and then being told she couldn't take any other flight.
Desmond being lectured by Ms. Hawking that he has to go to the island and turn the failsafe.
A freighter-load of outsiders suddenly appearing and frightening even Ben...and a huge load of other things, we see that there's some struggle happening in the background that Our Heroes aren't yet aware of. I've been saying for a long time that to make the struggle harder for us to figure out, that it's got three, rather than two sides, and that we've coincidentally gotten glimpses of three people who are wealthy and powerful and who are standing ready to be revealed as major players in the story.

These three represent the one who controlled the island in the past, the one who controls it in the present, and the one who seeks to control it in the future. Hanso clearly had it in the past, when the Dharma initiative was running. Widmore has been backing Ben, supplied the weapons used in the purge, and has financed his operations there, and represents the present control. Paik is behind the freighter, and has been searching for the island.

With the appearance of the freighter, Miles' reference to Ben's power and finances, and Ben's off-island assasination operation with Sayid, we're finally being given some glimpses of the actual struggle in process.

This is beautiful. :)

My theory contains elements that's close to this. I don't see Ben as related to Widmore, but I do think he's working for Widmore. All along we may have presumed that Ben was the absolute leader on the island, and do I think he is something of a cult-leader to a lot of the Others. But we have to consider that Alpert and company didn't just "whip up" their poison gas weapons and gas masks in the jungle, out of mangoes and sea urchins. Those things were supplied from outside by -- someone. Consider that amateur mechanics can't keep a submarine running like Hurley did with his Camaro. Keeping a sub running requires specialized skills, enormous costs, and lots of spare parts. Funding outside organizations -- even if they're just empty shells -- like Hererat Aviation and Mittelos Bioscience takes cash. And if those things didn't attract our attentions enough, the fact that Ben can plausibly bargain with Miles over sums of money running into the millions shows Ben has some big outside support.

Widmore is the easiest candidate for this support. It explains how Penny had enough information about the island to set up the Arctic listening station and to know what to listen for. It explains how Penny could be right there on the communications link the minute Charlie shut the jamming down. It explains why she asked Charlie how he got that frequency -- a question you only ask if you know that frequency is special. Her father's organization, which has been in contact with Ben and knows all about the island -- has a few security leaks.
Could be. I always thought that Charles Widmore and Kelvin were in cahoots to keep Desmond down in the hatch. And I also believe that Kelvin was in cahoots with the Hostiles. In other words, Kelvin and Ben knew each other. Now I wonder what part Radzinksy played in all this? I am pretty sure that he didn't kill himself. Kelvin did. But I can't quite figure out why...
Did he discover that his fellow button pusher was working for the enemy? Did that happen shortly after the Purge? Did Kelvin agree with the purge, while Radzinsky didn't, being a truly loyal Dharma employee?

Also, I believe most of us agree that there are, at least, THREE big factions at work, do we? Hanso, Widmore and Paik.
Now the hardest part is to figure out who is on whose side!

We know that Dharma ON the island is dead. But who is representing it off the island?
According to TLE, we have a name: Mittlewerk.
Now, like you suggest, Ben could be being financed by Widmore.
But what about Paik?
Well, what if Abaddon is Mr. Paik's second in command?

If this is the case. It seems that only TWO of the main groups are playing right now....
I wonder what Hanso is gonna do about his island? When will his power come into play? Is Jacob somehow a Dharma left over?

We know that Dharma ON the island is dead. But who is representing it off the island?
According to TLE, we have a name: Mittlewerk.
Now, like you suggest, Ben could be being financed by Widmore.
But what about Paik?
Well, what if Abaddon is Mr. Paik's second in command?


Paik, I believe, is behind the freighter. Consider what would be the consequences of this if Ben knew who his enemy was and knew the freighter was coming. His first move would be to grab Sun, Paiks daughter, as a hostage.

In fact, this is exactly what he did...

In TTLG, knowing that freighter people searching for Naomi might arrive at any moment, Ben chose to waste people and resources in an attempt to kidnap the pregnant women. In fact, the only known pregnant woman was Sun. Since Ben tends to play his cards close, he probably didn't want to tell his people how much trouble they were in until he had his hostage in-hand. The result was a ruse to grab pregnant women, but intended to make sure he had Sun. Considering this, Ben's otherwise stupidly timed cmmando raid on the beach camp is brilliant. Unfortunately for him, it not only failed, it got ten of his most capable soldiers killed.

Another suggestion that Paik was the backer of he freighter -- this presumes he's the one searching for the island. A different part of my Three Kings Theory (LOTS of details at the link in my sig...) posits that Flight 815 was intentionally brought to the island. Paik apparently learned about this, and had Jin on a mission to deliver a watch aboard the flight. The watch likely contained a transponder that would have allowwed him to locate the island. Unfortunately, Jin eventually gave the watch to Michael, who carried it off the island. It will probably be the mechanism through which Michael is located; possibly by the freighter, or maybe by another of Paik's vessels.

An intriguing thing about all this was that Jin got a "restroom warning" at the airport in Sydney. Interestingly, the man said he knew Jin was planning to run away. His only warning, though, was that Jin must deliver the watch. This made no sense at the time, as Jin could have both delivered the watch AND run away. However, if Paik knew of the plan to run away, he may also have known of Sun's plan to dessert Jin at Sydney. In that case, the warning makes perfect sense; it was to make sure that Jin got onto Flight 815 and brought the watch to the island, even though Sun was missing. This would have both gotten his transponder to the island and gotten rid of a troublesome son-in-law. Unfortunately for Paik, Sun decided to get on the plane too.

So Paik got his daughter stranded on the island he couldn't find, and then the watch that could now also help locate his daughter was removed from the island. Paik is not a happy man.

I suspect as you said, that Abbadon is in Paik's employ.

it makes sense that Abaddon could work for/with Paik

i mean, Jin was supposed to deliver a watch to his associate in LA.


which makes you wonder who his associate was in Austrailia

If this is the case. It seems that only TWO of the main groups are playing right now....
I wonder what Hanso is gonna do about his island? When will his power come into play?

I think that all three groups are in play. Again, lots of detail at the link in my sig, but...

Consider how surprised Richard was when he realized that Young Ben had seen an apparition of his mother... this was a very unusual and unexpected happening. It's quite possible that Ben is the only one in his group that can do this. Ben may be the only one with the sensitivity to the calls from the island.

Now consider how many people among the 815'ers have either seen apparitions, had island visions, had experiences with Jacob's cabin. In short, notice how unusually common this talent is among the 815'ers. Then consider how many of Our Heroes actually had tickets for the flight _given_ to them. (Claire was even told she couldn't take any other flight.) Then consider favors done for some of them that shouldn't have happened. Hurley was let on the plane after the gate had been closed; this just isn't done. Jack was allowed on the flight, bringing a corpse that didn't have the necessary paperwork. Now, I know Jack is an Olympic-class whiner, but even HE isn't that good. Major rules were broken to get him on the flight.

What does it all mean? Flight 815 was deliberately packed with people sensitive to the island, and then deliberately diverted to the island. (It wasn't planned to crash there.) This number of island-sensitives would easily undermine Ben's authority on the island. They didn't know they were pawns, of course. Whose pawns? The people who know all about the island and who want to throw Ben out -- Hanso. (Probably Mittelwerk; his temporary control there allows Hanso to be a "bad guy" in the portions of the timeline where the writers need three of them, but would allow Hanso to later move to "good guy" status later.)
100%
Could be. I always thought that Charles Widmore and Kelvin were in cahoots to keep Desmond down in the hatch. And I also believe that Kelvin was in cahoots with the Hostiles.

This part may get _very_ complicated. Kelvin, the Dharma guy, was likely in contact with Hanso, who wanted Desmond on the island to eventually activate the failsafe that they built. Widmore had more personal reasons for wanting Desmond stranded on the island. He had no reason to help Hanso; in fact, through Ben and Alpert's people, he threw Hanso off the island. The apparent collaboration was facilitated through an industrial spy, working for Hanso, but gaining the trust of Widmore, and persuading him to provide Desmond with a boat whose navigation equipment was specially-rigged to guide Desmond to the island Widmore controlled.

With Desmond underway, Hanso notified Kelvin that a visitor was coming. This is why Kelvin just happened to be out strolling in a storm in the exact place where Desmond happened to crash his boat. In this way, Hanso was able to use Widmore to get Desmond to the island. Once he was there, they made sure Desmond was immediatelly scooped up and brought to the hatch.

Who was the industrial spy? The one whose allegiance was with Hanso (I believe, in concert with Ms. Hawking and Br. Campbell in getting Des to the island to operate the failsafe.) The one who persuaded Widmore to outfit the special boat and arrange to meet Desmond and simply give it to him. That spy was the one main character who clearly TPTB absolutely couldn't give us a flashback for -- Libby.

Wesb, my only question is how did Paik know the plane would crash on the island?

it makes sense that Abaddon could work for/with Paik

i mean, Jin was supposed to deliver a watch to his associate in LA.


which makes you wonder who his associate was in Austrailia

My suspicion is that the associate in Australia was just a random worker-bee of Paik's. The purpose in delivering a watch in Australia was to get Jin on the Sydney-Los Angeles Flight 815, even though he was starting his trip from Seoul. I'd suspect that both watches had transponders, but the important thing was to get one of them to the island, and that meant starting out at Sydney, on Flight 815.
100%
Wesb, my only question is how did Paik know the plane would crash on the island?

First, the crash wasn't intended. That was an accident due to Desmond's missing pressing the button. The plane was intended to be brought there somewhat less dramatically. There may be an airstrip somewhere on the island, or perhaps it was planned to ditch the plane in shallow water, just offshore.

As to how Paik knew it was going there, it's only needed that Hanso planned to bring a group of island-sensitives there to undermine Ben. Industrial spies and security leaks are everywhere; especially on television. If the writers needed Paik to get the information, that's easily done...

Okay, I've got a BIG question and a BIG statement :eek2::

WHAT does Paik have to do with Island and all that at all??? Somehow, I completely missed that part, or is it all just wild speculation??? Not that it wouldn't make sense, I would just like to ask for an eXplanation...

Second, a statement- What I really don't like about this particular discussion is the fact that everyone somehow seems to be talking about "bad Ben who wants to do evil", "Ben plotting to kill this and that and destroy this and this and kidnap this and this and god-knows-what", while I simply can't understand why it is that so few people share my opinion (that I do believe is much closer to the truth according to the storyline so far :biggrin:) that Ben is simply trying to protect the majority...Of course, when he found out about the Losties, he did try to take advantage of them for the eXperiments etc, but I don't think he did it because he is an "evil dictator who thinks he's the master", not to talk about his personal benefit...

Okay, I've got a BIG question and a BIG statement :eek2::

WHAT does Paik have to do with Island and all that at all??? Somehow, I completely missed that part, or is it all just wild speculation??? Not that it wouldn't make sense, I would just like to ask for an eXplanation...


Whart we all do in our theorizing is speculation, of course. This particular line of speculation is intended to bring together a lot of the strange things that have been happening in the story; and it does bring a surprisingly large number of those things together.

When we get to questions of motive like your question, we are getting into territory where we don't have specific clues, and end up doing lots of pure guesswork. I can do this, but with the caution that there are so many ways the writers could handle it that I don't expect to get this part right. (Just consider the law of averages...) We did see in TLE that both Paik and Widmore appear to have been employed by Hanso in building the Dharma infrastructure on the island. In their work there, they'd have learned that the island exists, and may have had their people see some of the strange and almost miraculous tings that tend to happen there. They may not have been able to learn the location of the island, though Widmore being in the construction business may have had a better chance to learn that, as he'd have had to move large amounts of heavy equipment and construction workers to and from the place.

Seeing the things that the island can do, I can imagine ambitious industrialists wanting to control and exploit the island's powers. After all, if Ben's "Imagine a box" speech to Locke is true describing the island, that alone would be the key to uncountable wealth to anyone who could control it.

In fact, there are probably even more interesting things about the island that they know about but we still don't. Whatever they may be, my theory works around the idea that Hanso, Widmore and Paik all know that the island is very special, and they all want it...

Whart we all do in our theorizing is speculation, of course. This particular line of speculation is intended to bring together a lot of the strange things that have been happening in the story; and it does bring a surprisingly large number of those things together.

When we get to questions of motive like your question, we are getting into territory where we don't have specific clues, and end up doing lots of pure guesswork. I can do this, but with the caution that there are so many ways the writers could handle it that I don't expect to get this part right. (Just consider the law of averages...) We did see in TLE that both Paik and Widmore appear to have been employed by Hanso in building the Dharma infrastructure on the island. In their work there, they'd have learned that the island exists, and may have had their people see some of the strange and almost miraculous tings that tend to happen there. They may not have been able to learn the location of the island, though Widmore being in the construction business may have had a better chance to learn that, as he'd have had to move large amounts of heavy equipment and construction workers to and from the place.

Seeing the things that the island can do, I can imagine ambitious industrialists wanting to control and exploit the island's powers. After all, if Ben's "Imagine a box" speech to Locke is true describing the island, that alone would be the key to uncountable wealth to anyone who could control it.

In fact, there are probably even more interesting things about the island that they know about but we still don't. Whatever they may be, my theory works around the idea that Hanso, Widmore and Paik all know that the island is very special, and they all want it...

I feel the same way. As far as 'who' Ben is . . . I am becomming more and more inclined to believe he IS 'one of the good guys'.

I feel the same way. As far as 'who' Ben is . . . I am becomming more and more inclined to believe he IS 'one of the good guys'.

Unfortunately, much of television has its way of breaking everything up into morally obvious "good" and "bad" sides, so that viewers who don't want to think don't have to. I'm suspecting that Lost doesn't do this. We've seen characters like Locke, Kate, Sawyer, Michael, Jin, and now even Jack either commit murder or at least act with murderous intentions. And as long as the writers portray them in the right light, they will be forgiven.

There are many situations in real life that are either morally ambiguous or which have no good moral answer at all, and I'm suspecting that the writers of this show are running headlong into this territory. A well-written villain like Ben should have clear motivations, once we learn what he actually wants, and he should at least be able to see himself as a good-guy. If the writers can make his motivations morally ambiguous enough so that his ruthlessly murderous behavior also serves some greater good while averting some catastrophe even greater than what Ben is causing, all the better. It will make people think.

Anyway, I may be over analyzing everything, but I think you're likely to be right about Ben being a good guy in some way shape or form...

When will his power come into play? Is Jacob somehow a Dharma left over?
There was once a magnetic research station( Dharma Station name unknown) And there was an accident . The station scientist working on the experiments was Jacob: who ended up as the smoke monster and as the out of phase person that John Locke saw in the cabin. Just a guess!

We know that Dharma ON the island is dead. But who is representing it off the island?
According to TLE, we have a name: Mittlewerk.
Now, like you suggest, Ben could be being financed by Widmore.
But what about Paik?
Well, what if Abaddon is Mr. Paik's second in command?

If this is the case. It seems that only TWO of the main groups are playing right now....
I wonder what Hanso is gonna do about his island? When will his power come into play? Is Jacob somehow a Dharma left over?

TPTB are on record as saying that the stuff outside of what we see on TV isn't important to the show, but is instead a 'bonus' with the exception of the Orchid orientation video which we are told will be brought to light when necessary to the plot.

Therefore, all the 'Lost Experience' stuff can't really be counted on to turn up and be central to the ongoing story. It's entirely likely that Mittelwerk, Rachel Blake etc will never be referenced on the show.

TPTB are on record as saying that the stuff outside of what we see on TV isn't important to the show, but is instead a 'bonus' with the exception of the Orchid orientation video which we are told will be brought to light when necessary to the plot.

Therefore, all the 'Lost Experience' stuff can't really be counted on to turn up and be central to the ongoing story. It's entirely likely that Mittelwerk, Rachel Blake etc will never be referenced on the show.
I think I read that TLE is cannon. According to the latest interviews.
I don't remember what they said about FIND 815, but the Christaine I was incorporated into the show.
After all, it is just a name. It could be any other guy. It wouldn't really matter.

Ben is obviously Santa Claus.
1. The numerous north pole references
2. The Ho Ho Ho reference.
3. Ben can go anywhere
4. Ben's always spying on you.
5. Ben controls a magic box that can give you anything you want.

But seriously...after the economist eppy, I think Ben wants to pull the plug on all who know of the Island for good. I think Ben is thinking that eliminating all that financed the Island's operations will forever seal it's location from the outside, or something like that.
Can a secret like that be erased???

This makes a lot of sense. Also, we know that 6 losties get off the island. The rest of them must still be there... and the very people Sayid is trying to protect by working for Ben and killing the men who might do harm to the island - and to the people on it.


Widmore is the easiest candidate for this support. It explains how Penny had enough information about the island to set up the Arctic listening station and to know what to listen for. It explains how Penny could be right there on the communications link the minute Charlie shut the jamming down. It explains why she asked Charlie how he got that frequency -- a question you only ask if you know that frequency is special. Her father's organization, which has been in contact with Ben and knows all about the island -- has a few security leaks.

This makes a lot of sense too, only I loathe the idea that Sayid might work for Widmore. Albeit the Others must have some financial support from somebody...

Second, a statement- What I really don't like about this particular discussion is the fact that everyone somehow seems to be talking about "bad Ben who wants to do evil", "Ben plotting to kill this and that and destroy this and this and kidnap this and this and god-knows-what", while I simply can't understand why it is that so few people share my opinion (that I do believe is much closer to the truth according to the storyline so far :biggrin:) that Ben is simply trying to protect the majority...Of course, when he found out about the Losties, he did try to take advantage of them for the eXperiments etc, but I don't think he did it because he is an "evil dictator who thinks he's the master", not to talk about his personal benefit...

Well, maybe "purging" off 40-50 people, killing his own father, kidnapping, killing, manupulating, sequestrating everybody he comes in contact with might have something to do with it :rolleyes:

Ben is obviously Santa Claus.
1. The numerous north pole references
2. The Ho Ho Ho reference.
3. Ben can go anywhere
4. Ben's always spying on you.
5. Ben controls a magic box that can give you anything you want.

:24: This is the BEST idea I've heard so far.

Could be. I always thought that Charles Widmore and Kelvin were in cahoots to keep Desmond down in the hatch.

I agree. I think, for whatever reason, it would be very bad for Widmore if Desmond married Penny. I don't mean in the sociological-economic sense. I mean that Desmond somehow has the ability to unravel Widmore's entire scheme. I'm sure this is related to Desmond's ability to retain memories from one time loop to another, or have premonitions, depending on your theory of what makes Lost tick. In any event, Desmond is the kind of guy who would figure out what Daddy Widmore's up to if he had regular "comin' over for dinner and drinks" access to the family stuff.

So, suppose you are in on this huge global conspiracy involving a whole mess of big-time folks, and you have the one guy who can thwart your plans trying to marry your daughter. Now, I'm not saying that the hatch was constructed to trap Desmond, but what if Widmore knew of the hatch and arranged to have Desmond trapped there.

Well, he might try to create a situation that would bring Desmond to the island - an around the world yacht race or something. Then, he could have someone who works for him drag an unconscious Desmond into the hatch and then give him the job of pushing a button every 108 minutes, um, FOREVER.

That's one way to keep your daughter from marrying him.

What if what ben said in season 2 was true?

Sayid Why would you travel in that way?Henry GaleBecause I was rich. Because it was my dream. And Jennifer thought it would be neat.Sayid You were rich?Henry GaleI guess I'm thinking of things in the past tense now. How's that for optimism? Sayid What did you do to become so rich?Henry GaleI sold my company.Sayid What kind of company? Henry GaleMining.Sayid What did you mine?Henry GaleWe mined non-metallic minerals. I know, everyone wanted to talk to me at cocktail parties. Sayid Give me your hands. Give me your hands!

I think he was/is rich, had/have a mine with non metallic minerals, had a wife who died...
I think when you lie it's more believable if there's some true things in it no?

No matter who Ben turns out to be, you've got to feel for him intellectually right now as he's imprisoned by lesser minds:
- He tempts Locke with all the knowledge he has of the Island, and Locke just wants to know who the smoke monster is. :biggrin: And Ben continues to play Locke like a fiddle.
- Then Miles shows up as an agent of whoever Ben seems to fear on the boat, and instead of laying hands on him and reading his mind, or perhaps probing into the mind or essence of Jacob (as I think Miles' special talent might be able to do), he asks him for money!
Ben's comment in the chess mobisode about not having had a worthy adversary for some time is well illustrated here.

No matter who Ben turns out to be, you've got to feel for him intellectually right now as he's imprisoned by lesser minds:
- He tempts Locke with all the knowledge he has of the Island, and Locke just wants to know who the smoke monster is. :biggrin: And Ben continues to play Locke like a fiddle.
- Then Miles shows up as an agent of whoever Ben seems to fear on the boat, and instead of laying hands on him and reading his mind, or perhaps probing into the mind or essence of Jacob (as I think Miles' special talent might be able to do), he asks him for money!
Ben's comment in the chess mobisode about not having had a worthy adversary for some time is well illustrated here.
I've been thinking about this, too, workingmom. As with some (of my favorite) villains, Ben doesn't appear satisfied with a victory over a lesser opponent. After all, he's already killed several dozen Dharma folks -- who's next better be bigger, badder, and more challenging. I definitely get the impression that Ben sees Miles' employer as a worthy adversary, but may (unless the money conversation turns out to be code) already see Miles as just an enforcer, rather than the brains of the operation.

For my mind, I :heart: Ben, regardless of who he is. His mind-frakking is phenomenal, and I love to watch him flex his mental muscles and go to work. That little smirk when he hears Locke smash the breakfast plate? Priceless.

Ben is obviously Santa Claus.
1. The numerous north pole references
2. The Ho Ho Ho reference.
3. Ben can go anywhere
4. Ben's always spying on you.
5. Ben controls a magic box that can give you anything you want.
:24: This is the BEST idea I've heard so far.

Plus, doesn't he have "The List" of who's naughty and nice?

Oooh, very impressive Faraday animation. And the tag-line, "Thank God it's Faraday..." Well played, sir, well played.
100%
Ben's comment in the chess mobisode about not having had a worthy adversary for some time is well illustrated here.
Except the first chess move he made was a horrible move, and the second one was mediocre. Plus, why does he keep saying things to make the most violent people around him angry? Does he like having a blue and green face?

...lol @ "Skaby". Hadn't heard that one before. I think Skaby still exists in the present, even if not in the future.

Oh, snappers! The "List" of people who are good and bad... Wow... maybe I belong in the Santa Clausa mental institute.

Well, maybe "purging" off 40-50 people, killing his own father, kidnapping, killing, manupulating, sequestrating everybody he comes in contact with might have something to do with it :rolleyes:



Nah, we still don't know any of that for sure :biggrin: (except that he killed his abusive and neglecting father)...I really agree with the whole "moral ambiguity" thing, I would never presume that the writers are Hollywood enough to put in an "evil" character in the show just for the heck of being evil and doing evil things...And it is a fact that so far in the show Ben has shown more mercy, understanding and "avoiding-to-do-harm-unless-he-thought-was-necessary" than any other character (except Jack)...So, yup, call me nuts or whatever, but I am pretty sure that we evil soon find out that Ben is not evil, but merely working towards protecting the "big picture" that is in the game...