So I guess that this is just the beginning of the end for the doctors good morals. I'm really not liking the O6 so much in their FFs. It certainly appears that they all sold their souls to the devil to get off that island.

So I guess that this is just the beginning of the end for the doctors good morals. I'm really not liking the O6 so much in their FFs. It certainly appears that they all sold their souls to the devil to get off that island.

He did it because he's in L-O-V-E. But I understand what you mean. I have never been a fan of Kate, but you would think that she'd eventually feel some sort of remorse for killing a person, even if he was bad in her eyes. She will do anything to run away. (and in this case not serve any jail time)

Not really, Christian was a lose cannon. If Jack had lied about him there was a very good chance that he'd have shown up drunk while treating another patient and all that blood would have been on Jack's hand. In case of Kate; Jack knows that she is fairly harmless and not a threat to anyone in the world like Christian was.

You also have to consider that their experiences on the island have changed them in a very fundamental way -- for good or for bad.

Of course, there's also a difference about what crimes were committed. Kate killed a man who was abusing her and her mother, while Christian was operating on an innocent woman while intoxicated.

I agree that Jack sincerely believed Kate was not a current threat to society. Also, Jack's lie on the witness stand was related to the Big Lie. He couldn't very well have told a story that contradicted the big one.

Not really, Christian was a lose cannon. If Jack had lied about him there was a very good chance that he'd have shown up drunk while treating another patient and all that blood would have been on Jack's hand. In case of Kate; Jack knows that she is fairly harmless and not a threat to anyone in the world like Christian was.

You also have to consider that their experiences on the island have changed them in a very fundamental way -- for good or for bad.

Of course, there's also a difference about what crimes were committed. Kate killed a man who was abusing her and her mother, while Christian was operating on an innocent woman while intoxicated.


Kate did a lot more than just kill one man. Her laundry list of crimes was mentioned more than once in this episode. I'm not sure how anyone could assume that she is or ever was "harmless".

Clearly, Jack is abandoning his former moral code. And what ever deal they all made to leave the island has changed them all for the worst.

Kate did a lot more than just kill one man. Her laundry list of crimes was mentioned more than once in this episode. I'm not sure how anyone could assume that she is or ever was "harmless".

Clearly, Jack is abandoning his former moral code. And what ever deal they all made to leave the island has changed them all for the worst.

But all the crimes Kate has committed have been related to her killing her father. Also in the grand scheme of things especially after what they've been through on the island a bank robbery feels rather trivial, irrelevant and harmless..

Jack's moral code has always been corrupt to me. Pre-island even. I'm sorry but this man was NEVER a saint. He's a product of his father through-and-through (which is what makes him a very interesting character).

Anyway, we have no idea why the O6 have to lie. Did they sell their souls? Maybe. But maybe the Big Lie is the only way the lives of their friends back on the island will be spared. Who knows? Maybe he is lying for the Greater Good of his friends.

So I guess that this is just the beginning of the end for the doctor's good morals. I'm really not liking the O6 so much in their FFs. It certainly appears that they all sold their souls to the devil to get off that island.

Yes, it seems they all were better off on the Island, and Jack was right in saying "we have to go back." I espc. feel bad for poor Hurley! He was Someone on the Island, and now he's back in "that place."

He did it because he's in L-O-V-E. But I understand what you mean. I have never been a fan of Kate, but you would think that she'd eventually feel some sort of remorse for killing a person, even if he was bad in her eyes. She will do anything to run away. (and in this case not serve any jail time)
Again, I agree. Eventually, she should feel remorse for killing someone in that way...but then again, Kate is a character that I've never liked, so I'm not surprised that she'd be so cold.

If Jack had lied about him there was a very good chance that he'd have shown up drunk while treating another patient and all that blood would have been on Jack's hand. In case of Kate; Jack knows that she is fairly harmless and not a threat to anyone in the world like Christian was.
Well, when ya put it that way... :) But then again, Kate has shown over & over that she's willing to do just about anything to be free, to get her way, etc.

Jack's moral code has always been corrupt to me. ...this man was NEVER a saint.

Anyway, we have no idea why the O6 have to lie. Did they sell their souls?
Seems like they have--but who have they sold them to? Is Ben the one who now holds the key to their souls?

I never liked Jack either, LL. He bends his morals to suit the situation...but I guess that many of us do that in real life, come to think of it. Hmm. I don't know why I'm so hard on Jack...but I do like him better this season, so that's something. Maybe he's just growing on me...like a wart. Ha! :)

Y

I never liked Jack either, LL. He bends his morals to suit the situation...but I guess that many of us do that in real life, come to think of it. Hmm. I don't know why I'm so hard on Jack...but I do like him better this season, so that's something. Maybe he's just growing on me...like a wart. Ha! :)

Actually, I mostly like the character of Jack. He's so interesting. But he's no saint. (Saints are boring!) I just cringe when people think Jack is just soooo great and always back up what he does. He THINKS he's always doing the right thing, and maybe sometimes he is, but he is often quite mistaken in his choices.

Jack lied for Kate because he loves her. He said he didn't, but in the last scene we saw that he obviously does. I don't think Kate is a good person or has "good character", and I think that if Jack didn't love her he'd think that too. He heard her "laundry list" of crimes, he knows she'll do anything to get her way, but he's too in love with her to use logic in the situation.

So Jack loves Kate. Are you saying he didn't love his father, or just that he loved Kate more?

I just cringe when people think Jack is just soooo great and always back up what he does. He THINKS he's always doing the right thing, and maybe sometimes he is, but he is often quite mistaken in his choices.

Yes, he's the flawed hero character, for sure. I agree that he tries to do the right thing, but his emotions get in the way & blind him. It's sad that he fell for Kate, and not one of the other (better) gals. (At least he isn't attracted to Claire--that would be real bad.) But yeah, Jack can make me cringe, too.

Yeah, I do think Jack is sooooo great and part of his greatness for me is that no, he's no Saint and he'll lie and lose control and want to murder Locke and he's hanging by a thin thread because the Island is slowly stripping away everything decent in him. So please don't expect me to apologize for that.

So Jack loves Kate. Are you saying he didn't love his father, or just that he loved Kate more?

I'm saying it's apples and oranges.

And Jack DID lie for his father. He signed a false statement that would have gotten Christian off the hook. Until he found out that his father killed two innocent people, one of them a baby, and all the lip service he gave him was just a manipulation sealed with a hand on the shoulder, the same thing he did with the patient's husband.

That hearing and that trial was between Christian and Jack and their consciences. It's a self-contained event.

Covering up Craphole Island and what really happened after the crash isn't. A LOT more people are involved in the O6's Big Lie and a lot more is at stake so the two situations are very different as far as I'm concerned.

Yeah, I do think Jack is sooooo great and part of his greatness for me is that no, he's no Saint and he'll lie and lose control and want to murder Locke and he's hanging by a thin thread because the Island is slowly stripping away everything decent in him. So please don't expect me to apologize for that.


It took me awhile to get back to some old threads, but I wanted to reply to this. Need to clarify. I do NOT have a problem with people loving the character of Jack. I really like the character of Jack a LOT. Sometimes his character makes me a little weary--mostly the FBs, but the show would not be the same without him.

What I meant is that sometimes I think people think Jack is flawless, that he can do no wrong... that because he's the hero, he's perfect.... I see that you don't feel that way at all.

Just wanted to make sure there was no understanding. I have no disrepect for major Jack fans in general and certainly no disrespect for you, Claudia.

Jack did lie for his father. He quit doing so when he found out it could bring death to innocent people if he continued to cover for him. Jack is consistant in this. He lies to protect those he loves from harm. (He has also lied to Kate a time or two in attempts to protect her.) Besides the lies about Kate could be part of the cover story that allowed them off the island and possibly may be neccessary to continue protecting those who were left behind.

What I meant is that sometimes I think people think Jack is flawless, that he can do no wrong... that because he's the hero, he's perfect.... I see that you don't feel that way at all.


Actually, most of us Jack fans LOVE that Jack is so completely flawed and a less than perfect hero. That's what makes him so interesting. A white knight who is always right and never screws up would bore me to tears, not to mention would be a total waste of Matthew Fox's talent who showed a beautifully flawed and screwed up Jack in TTLG, and which made it so memorable, imo.

Nice though it would be I'm sure to excuse Jack lying under oath because of some unseen puppet master - I see Jack lying for Jack.

The story of the O6 is well enough known that they are celebrities on back of it - I don't see why a day in court would me necessary to bolster the cover up. Kate did at least have the decency to look embarrassed by his cringe making performance.

Shame then that the same decency wasn't extended to the people she had held up at gunpoint so she could rat out her mates to retrieve an object of sentiment - ahhh Katie, you're all heart! - can't pin that one on, daddy no not my real daddy yes actually really my real daddy, Wayne.

Jack lied - for Kate - because it's what Jack wanted; to come good on some promise to save her, wanted coffee so pursued her, but visit the baby....? No. He doesn't want to.

It's the babies that link the stories for me: Jake ceased lying for his father after the loss of one, but persists in a lie that enables Kate to keep hers.

The first time i saw the episode i thought exactly the same....i lie for kate but not for his father! And then someone told me something...it's not the first time that he's acting like that...he lied for Juliet during her trial in season 3 ...that's exactly the same kind of scene ... 2 trials 2 women he likes and 2 lies for helping them!
So he has no problem for lying to help women but for helping his father it was a problem...i think he has too much Daddy issues to forgive Christian and honesty wasn't his first motive it was more resentment apparently!

LL, I apologize for being snippy. Episode nights are rough on West Coasters like me. :smile:

Nice though it would be I'm sure to excuse Jack lying under oath because of some unseen puppet master - I see Jack lying for Jack.

The story of the O6 is well enough known that they are celebrities on back of it - I don't see why a day in court would me necessary to bolster the cover up.

Well, they're in a bit of a tight spot if Jack were to say: Yes, I learned she was a fugitive from the Marshall... you know... the one I tried to save by pulling a piece of shrapnel out of his gut. She later told me she killed a guy, but by then I figured it didn't matter since she was a nice gal who picked fruit for everyone at the beach and always went on dangerous treks. Oh, and she helped Claire deliver Aaron.

People at the beach? Marshall? Treks? Dangerous? CLAIRE? So... he was alive when you crashed? So how many survivors were there again?

Obviously, the primary objective was getting Kate out of the slammer, but it had to be coreographed so it would fit a lie they've been telling for a while now.


So he has no problem for lying to help women but for helping his father it was a problem...

Juliet was tried by an arbitrary court of her fellow cult members. She was charged with trying to off Ben, the man who just so happened to kindap Jack and his friends and torture them.

Kate is raising Aaron and is by no means liable to blow up anyone as the good soccer mom she's turned out to be now.

Christian was a surgeon who had been given chances before ("You've done this before") and continued to drink and slice at the same time. And Jack still lied for him, until he saw him callously lie about taking the life of a child.

Not exactly the same situations here...

Nice though it would be I'm sure to excuse Jack lying under oath because of some unseen puppet master - I see Jack lying for Jack.

The story of the O6 is well enough known that they are celebrities on back of it - I don't see why a day in court would me necessary to bolster the cover up. Kate did at least have the decency to look embarrassed by his cringe making performance.

Jack appeared in court on behalf of Kate to testify as a 'character witness'.... for Kate.

With whom he pursues a relationship. Wee bit tricky if she's in jail. ;)

I'm saying it's apples and oranges.

And Jack DID lie for his father. He signed a false statement that would have gotten Christian off the hook. Until he found out that his father killed two innocent people, one of them a baby, and all the lip service he gave him was just a manipulation sealed with a hand on the shoulder, the same thing he did with the patient's husband.Thankfully some people remembers the facts. You've got to consider ALL the details... Jack lied for Kate and not for his father, but of course, he was just about to lie for him until he found out that the patient was pregnant and that his father's drunken mistake had actually been the cause of two deaths... a fact that had been "conveniently" kept from Jack until then. It was only then that he decided that he wanted to revise his statement.

If there's one thing we've learned about Jack and most of the island survivors is that they're not really opposed to killing. Jack wants to protect everyone. He's been like that since Episode 1. We haven't seen him do it yet, but he's come close to cracking and killing someone himself. He definitely wants to kill Ben and he would have killed Locke if the gun had been loaded. I think he understands the difference between Kate killing the man who was abusing her mom is a lot different from his father killing a woman and her unborn child simply because he was too drunk to perform his job.

Thankfully some people remembers the facts. You've got to consider ALL the details... Jack lied for Kate and not for his father, but of course, he was just about to lie for him until he found out that the patient was pregnant and that his father's drunken mistake had actually been the cause of two deaths... a fact that had been "conveniently" kept from Jack until then. It was only then that he decided that he wanted to revise his statement.

If there's one thing we've learned about Jack and most of the island survivors is that they're not really opposed to killing. Jack wants to protect everyone. He's been like that since Episode 1. We haven't seen him do it yet, but he's come close to cracking and killing someone himself. He definitely wants to kill Ben and he would have killed Locke if the gun had been loaded. I think he understands the difference between Kate killing the man who was abusing her mom is a lot different from his father killing a woman and her unborn child simply because he was too drunk to perform his job.

Yes but i'm not sure the difference is in favour of kate she killed on purpose and christian didn't...:rolleyes: but maybe jack doesn't know she killed her father and how? After all she only told him about Tom and then she cried she loved him... i wonder exactly what he knows about her father's death! She's pleading not guilty so i would like to know her "version" of the story...but possibly jack believes more Kate because he knows her so have more confidence in her than in her mother???

Jack loved his father, feared his father, was intimidated by his father. He was willing to lie for his father until he found out about the baby.

Jack is not opposed to lying. We have seen him lie or withhold information from the other Losties time and again.

The comes Kate. They meet, he loves her, she is not sure about him, triangle ensues, they go on adventures together, beat up others together, get caught up in nets together.

He loves Kate for who she is, not knowing what she did back home. His father's crime was right in front of him, Jack literally had his hands in the innocent woman that his dad killed. Kate killed her abusive father.

Jack has a tendancy of holding people to different standards and I don't see why Kate/ Christian should be any different.