I didn't understand it. He didn't deserve it after everything he's done for her. She uses him and he's ok with it, she needs help and he's there yada yada

She wakes him up and kisses him , then she's all "Oh no...don't touch me!" :confused:
And now she's angry because she wants a baby? :undecide:

He called her on being a flip-flop. Good for him. SHE"S the one that needs to be smacked.

She hit him cuz she's nuts. No, I just said that because I think Kate is very tiresome. I think she smacked him because she is in love with him and was happy with the idea she might be pregnant with his child, plus being pregnant with Sawyer's child would help her solve the whole which guy do I pick dilemma. Sawyer being so happy she was not pregnant ( for what ever reason) was a kind of metaphorical slap in Kate's face

why would she be happy being pregnant with Sawyers child?
I mean, she knows pregnant women and their baby's die on the island.. doesnt make any sense

As a woman who at one point thought she might be pregnant and wasn't, I can say that even though I didn't want to be pregnant at the time, when the test came back negative I was still a little disappointed. Like "maybe it wouldn't be that bad after all". Maybe that was what Kate was feeling, regardless of the "pregnancy on island" issue because she is still set on getting off the island.

I think Sawyer should have been punched in the face and given a black eye.

He deserves it for being so sleazy.

im gonna agree with sawyer here... she was just looking for an excuse to split! and she got it! she kissed him, she kissed his chest knowing that would turn on sawyer! then she rejected him! :rolleyes:

she already knew what sawyer thought about the pregnancy and the babies, he made it pretty clear in TTLG so i dont think that she was surprised by his reaction! she was expecting this reaction! thats why she immediatly started to wear on her pants and said "im going back to the beach"
sawyer didnt buy it ofcourse :)

I think the writers did a poor job in making Kate's motivation seem believable in this episode. Were they trying to depict her as a ruthless user who toys with Sawyer's affection to get what she wants? In that case, why have her be so mad that Sawyer's glad she's not pregnant, especially since she'd already informed him she hadn't stayed with Locke's group because of Sawyer? "Oh, yay, you let me know you didn't stay here because of me, we're going to have a baby together, yippee!"

The writing for Kate in this episode didn't get it done, character-wise, imo.

I thought the smack was out of line. I've said this a couple of other places, but if he smacked her everyone would be a whole lot madder. Its not okay for her to smack him just cause she's the girl.

Plus, he didn't deserve it. He continued to help her even though he knew she was using him. He just hit a nerve by calling her on her flip-flopping. She probably just reacted instinctively.

For someone who killed her father for hitting her mother, she is always pretty quick to physically be abusive to her partner.

Maybe Sawyer likes it rough.....yum

Ok jk...:redface: :biggrin:

Seriously, Kate is so bi-polar with him and Jack and it isn't fair to either of them. I agree that Sawyer did not deserve it. He and Kate have both pretty much established themselves as the wild cards of the group, so why would they have a kid - this island is freedom....in a way for them.

HOWEVER, Kate was testing him to see what he would say and reacted as many women would to his reaction (sans the slap). I mean even if they dont want to have children, Sawyer offered an "island marriage" of sorts to her and a house and that he would keep her safe, be her protector....I think most women would then entertain the thought of having children. If he had been dissappointed, I think she still would have gotten mad at him.

That slap was more related to Sawyer calling her out on how she treats him and Jack though.

I think that slap was undeserved. Sawyer was telling the truth and yes, the truth hurts sometimes.

Still, Sawyer knows what he is (or was) getting into. He recognizes that she uses people for what she needs. Remember the conversation in the kitchen he said just tell me that you want to use me. This was much like the conversation in the tent when Kate saw Jack with Juliette and was all upset.

Kate is a very immature character. She may have killed someone and done all these things against the law, but emotionally she is a wreck.

Sawyer got his just dues!

Man, I love Kate, but she is a bit unstable at times.

HOWEVER, Kate was testing him to see what he would say and reacted as many women would to his reaction (sans the slap).

just 2 days ago sawyer told him that he hoped that she's not pregnant... so kate already tested him and got her answer! i dont think she was testing him. sawyer was right "she was just looking for an excuse" ;)

That slap was more related to Sawyer calling her out on how she treats him and Jack though.

Absolutely! There's no question Sawyer nailed her on her actions! Good for him!

I don't like the way Kate manipulates. Why can't she just be honest with him?? Instead she throws this "What if I'm pregnant" thing out there to test whether he would be happy about it. I guess she thought if he knew she might be pregnant she could persuade him to get off the Island with her.

But instead he acted honest about it - Yea! You are not pregnant! Because pregnant woman DIE on the Island!

It must make Kate feel pretty "s*****" to know that Sawyer knows what she is doing - yo-yo'ing around with her feelings for Jack/Sawyer - and still letting her treat him (Sawyer) that way because he loves her.

And I thought she was being an awful tease that morning. Especially if she knew she didn't want to "start" something. What does she think the man is made of? Stone? TEASE!

I was just thinking about it .. .Kate's conversation with Sawyer about pregnancy is almost like Jack's conversation with Sarah, where she said, "Don't worry, I'm not pregnant."

I was just thinking about it .. .Kate's conversation with Sawyer about pregnancy is almost like Jack's conversation with Sarah, where she said, "Don't worry, I'm not pregnant."

...and now Sarah's pregnant....

I think the writers did a poor job in making Kate's motivation seem believable in this episode. Were they trying to depict her as a ruthless user who toys with Sawyer's affection to get what she wants? In that case, why have her be so mad that Sawyer's glad she's not pregnant, especially since she'd already informed him she hadn't stayed with Locke's group because of Sawyer? "Oh, yay, you let me know you didn't stay here because of me, we're going to have a baby together, yippee!"

The writing for Kate in this episode didn't get it done, character-wise, imo. The writing and motivation was very poor. She flip-flops her attitude and emotions toward Sawyer several times within the episode and within a single scene.
Sawyer hit the nail on the head with this and it bears repeating:

You’re just looking for some excuse the split and now you got one. It’s all right, Freckles, I’m not gonna hold it aginst ya. I’m just gonna sit here in my comfy bed.
Cause in about a week, you’ll find some reason to get pissed at Jack, and bounce right back to me.
It was the last line that made her slap him - she doesn't like being faced with the truth about her actions.

Absolutely! There's no question Sawyer nailed her on her actions! Good for him!

I don't like the way Kate manipulates. Why can't she just be honest with him?? Instead she throws this "What if I'm pregnant" thing out there to test whether he would be happy about it. I guess she thought if he knew she might be pregnant she could persuade him to get off the Island with her.

But instead he acted honest about it - Yea! You are not pregnant! Because pregnant woman DIE on the Island!

It must make Kate feel pretty "s*****" to know that Sawyer knows what she is doing - yo-yo'ing around with her feelings for Jack/Sawyer - and still letting her treat him (Sawyer) that way because he loves her.

And I thought she was being an awful tease that morning. Especially if she knew she didn't want to "start" something. What does she think the man is made of? Stone? TEASE! She was quite the "tease" if she intended to just leave. Sawyer didn't behave too well right then either, turning back into a leering horndog, but it's not like she should be surprised.

After last week's discussion about Sawyer wanting her to stay I'm not sure Sawyer was fully informed about the island pregnancy curse - seems like one of them would have mentioned it in this conversation. And then Kate, who DOES know about the deathcurse, gets pouty and mopes "would it have been the worst thing in the world?". Um, yes, because you'd die, Kate. The writing was very weak here.

Oh well, so much for Kate and Sawyer facing their inner child by becoming parents together. It was a nice idea while it lasted.

She's funny. She wanted to have a baby in a deserted and very dangerous island with a man she has know few months ago HAHA!!!!!! :biggrin:

Smack that Sawyer! ;)

I hope this is end of the who will Kate choose. She should choose no one, because she's a certified loon.

Kate needs to die already.

I think Sawyer should have been punched in the face and given a black eye.

He deserves it for being so sleazy.

Agreed. Mr. Groin got what he deserved. He should have kept his snarky mouth shut. Kate swatted him after he accused her of bouncing back to him after she supposedly would piss off Jack.

Kate is the one who gets my sympathy.. She's deeply attracted to two very different types of men. She is very torn between relating so much to Sawyer ( both being con-artists) but wanting so much to be the type Jack would be attracted to. I believe Kate is quite a bit deeper than how she's been portrayed thus far & that will be illustrated as time goes on. The tenderness she showed toward her son at the end of this epi is a big clue.

I think the writers did a poor job in making Kate's motivation seem believable in this episode. Were they trying to depict her as a ruthless user who toys with Sawyer's affection to get what she wants? In that case, why have her be so mad that Sawyer's glad she's not pregnant, especially since she'd already informed him she hadn't stayed with Locke's group because of Sawyer? "Oh, yay, you let me know you didn't stay here because of me, we're going to have a baby together, yippee!"

I thought the writing (and acting) were right on target. She is obviously pregnant. She obviously loves Sawyer, and is broken-hearted that she has to leave him, as she has to have the baby off the island, and she can't ask Sawyer to come with her as he showed unambiguously that he would not want anything to do with being a father. Him accusing her of running to Jack was just adding insult to injury. It's not a justifiable excuse to hit, but when you grow up in an abusive home, that's what happens. For a con man, Sawyer can be pretty dense.

Apparently she looses the baby, and adopts Aaron, sort of as a substitute. The same thing I'm sure happened with Ben, that he lost his daughter and wife in childbirth, and adopted Alex as a kind of substitute.

Apparently she looses the baby, and adopts Aaron, sort of as a substitute. The same thing I'm sure happened with Ben, that he lost his daughter and wife in childbirth, and adopted Alex as a kind of substitute.

Now, I hadn't thought of THAT scenario before.....

I don't like the way Kate manipulates. Why can't she just be honest with him?? Instead she throws this "What if I'm pregnant" thing out there to test whether he would be happy about it. I guess she thought if he knew she might be pregnant she could persuade him to get off the Island with her.

But instead he acted honest about it - Yea! You are not pregnant!
She knew that the only way to get an honest reaction about how he felt about being a father was to lie and tell him she was not pregnant. And she got it. He wasn't talking about dying in pregnancy. He was talking about parenthood. "Yes, it would have been the worst thing in the world. What would we have done with a baby?"

Because pregnant woman DIE on the Island!
...which is why she's going back. She has to leave the island. And her expression speaks volumes about how she feels about her baby growing up without a father. She's evolved. She's no longer about running, or just looking out for herself, she's going back to face justice and responsibility.

Kate and Sawyer both manipulate and use people and each other. They have been doing it since season one. Nothing about their actions have been out of character, imho. I don't really sympathize with either of them. I don't agree with Kate hitting Sawyer because I don't think anyone should be raising their hands unless they are defending their lives. However, Sawyer was absolutely correct in calling her out. My problem with Sawyer is that he acts like her flip-flopping is suddenly news.

From what I have seen in season three, Kate used Sawyer regularly and Sawyer called her on it at that time. He also gave her the green light to keep right on doing it. Therefore, Sawyer has no reason to be upset with her. Kate and Sawyer have serious communication problems. Even after being held captive, they never discussed anything. In fact, I don't recall Kate and Sawyer ever having a serious heart to heart until last week, and Sawyer was the one doing the talking.

I didn't really see anything that surprised me in that entire scene because they have been using each other since the beginning, and I have never really gotten a clear handle on how they feel about each other. I say this because both tend to ditch the other regularly without explanation. They never seem to talk things out beforehand.

Lastly, I DO think Kate was a total tease with Sawyer when she first woke up and started kissing him. When he responded, she suddenly tells him "No." That's just plain wrong. Don't be a tease.

That slap was more related to Sawyer calling her out on how she treats him and Jack though.I think you hit the nail on the head.

We've seen Kate do all kinds of selfish things to keep from being caught. Remember, she poisoned Michael/Jin so she could get a spot on the raft, and then trying to fix Joanne's passport. She also ran her car at a cop with gun drawn in an effort to get away, causing her childhood friend to lose his life. She rolled the farmer's truck to get away from the Marshal, something that could have killed him as well. So I think what we saw in this ep was an attempt to show Kate as manipulative, to contrast with her willingness to give up her freedom for Aaron in the FF. But after all the progress we saw with Kate and Sawyer's relationship in S3, it didn't really ring true.

The end of last season she was trying to get him to open up after The Brig, and just three eps ago, she was disappointed he decided to go with Locke instead of staying there with her and Jack. And now suddenly she doesn't "trust" Sawyer, and she's teasing him then turning him down, and picking fights with him as an excuse to leave. Dunno, didn't really work for me, but I was glad to see her change in the FF. So maybe we'll get more of an explanation - there's still two and a half seasons to go. :)

I thought the whole scene was unrealistic and badly written. Both Kate and Sawyer acted like petulent kids. They've been through so much together that they should know each other better. While there certainly was some truth in what Sawyer said, he said it in a very insulting manner, as if he wanted to make sure that this time Kate would not return.
For someone who killed her father for hitting her mother, she is always pretty quick to physically be abusive to her partner. Kate probably didn't hit Sawyer very hard but still, I hated to see her act like this. She resorted to violence just like Wayne.

However, I do understand why Kate wouldn't trust Sawyer. In The Beginning of The End, he made it pretty clear that he didn't think much of their relationship. Sawyer decided to go with Locke, "surviving" as he claimed, not wanting to discuss things first with Kate, like Bernard did with Rose. If Sawyer thought that following Locke was the least dangerous option, he should've at least tried to convince Kate to come with him.

My reading was kind of simple: Kate obviously loves Jack (from the FF) and wants to be with Jack, and uses Sawyer to her advantage. She got upset because he hit that soft spot, and so she hit him. She doesn't want to be with him or have a baby, but when she's done with him she needed an excuse to return to Jack and there it was.
I think that is part of her redemption, she was willing to hurt a man like Sawyer to be with Jack, yet she learnt to put Aaron infront of Jack in the future. She evolved!

I'm so glad Sawyer called her out on the Jack thing. She absolutely didn't want to hear it, but she needed to. I think they both did each other a favor. Personally I think someone should have smacked Sawyer in the face a long time ago for the things he's done to just about all the Losties since he's been there. But he did Kate a favor by calling her out - she knows she's got to face it now. And I do agree with whoever wrote - I hope Sawyer has the guts to kick her to the curb if she does "bounce right back to him". (however, I don't think she'll be bouncing back any time soon).

Kate playing around with Sawyer in the morning (of all times ;)), and then "changing her mind" was a pretty low thing to do. We're not talking about two angels though, and right now, I think they are better off far apart from each other. They're involvement with each other borders on such a fine, thin line that it's scary. They hold things over each other's heads and try to one-up each other all the time. Scary and shaky, but there will always be a teeny, tiny crack left open because this particular door will never be completely closed and locked up for good. This is LOST!

She smacked him because he dosen't want a baby.

Really, she has to leave because of Locke, but she is scared internally, b\c of what Miles told her. Locke said she was not welcome, and she probably doesn't want to get Sawyer caught up in a battle with Locke. I think she senses that Locke has gone off the deep end.

I think Sawyer, since this relationship started, has been more honest and aware of what is going on than Kate has ever been. I know he's not perfect and I know he has done some pretty bad stuff, but that awareness with Kate has been pretty constant. Maybe he could have been more diplomatic in his reaction to finding out she wasn't pregnant, but it was an honest, real reaction. Kate is the one who is messed up--running back and forth between the two men, not thinking about what was going to happen to her if she left the island until Sawyer brought it up, telling the guy who would die for her she didn't trust him because he went with Locke, being sweet and cuddly and loving and sexy one minute and then acting like he has cooties the next--the woman is a basket case. I think the slap was because of her anger with him over constantly making her see the truth of the situation, making her see herself and what she is doing (with leaving the island, being pregnant and what it means, and making her face what she is doing with the guys). No one has ever called Kate out like that before and she doesn't like it. He sees her too easily. Unlike doofus Jack who perjures himself for her and stands like a little kid in front of her in that parking garage. I guess I am saying I understand why she slapped him.

Does this mean that I think they are done forever? No. I think they will always be drawn to each other no matter what happens--it's almost like it's against their wills--especially hers.

I absolutely hated the way Kate treated Sawyer in this episode.
She was cold, harsh and dismissive. This episode proved to me that she doesn't love him and is only using him. There was once a time when she would've done anything to save his life. I guess those days are definitely gone.

What Sawyer said to her in their final scene was true and that's probably why she slapped him. She would've gone to the beach anyway. She just used what he said as an excuse. I still don't quite understand why she came to him in the first place.

I'm a Skater who hopes Sawyer and Kate are over for good.
Now I only hope he doesn't somehow end up sacrifising his life for her eventually. She absolutely doesn't deserve it.

Whether Sawyer deserved it or not is a matter of opinion, but Kate slapping him should come as no surprise. It's another manifestation of the harsh physicality they've had with each other right from the start - from him grabbing her arm in the Pilot and telling her "I've been with girls like you." Sounds just like "It's not like we haven't done it before", huh?
I've been told by Sawyer/Kate fans that physical fighting is part of their unique relationship. Foreplay, if you will. So maybe it's just a love slap. ;)

... and it HAS been a little stressful lately, hasn't it? So, I guess the next best thing to a romp in the hay would be smacking someone upside the head, right?

Whether Sawyer deserved it or not is a matter of opinion, but Kate slapping him should come as no surprise. It's another manifestation of the harsh physicality they've had with each other right from the start - from him grabbing her arm in the Pilot and telling her "I've been with girls like you." Sounds just like "It's not like we haven't done it before", huh?
I've been told by Sawyer/Kate fans that physical fighting is part of their unique relationship. Foreplay, if you will. So maybe it's just a love slap. ;)


When he slaps her across the face, I'll believe that.

To put a little perspective on Kate's reaction-

Events leading to the smackdown remind Kate of Diane and Wayne.

Sawyer wants her to live a cozy and romantic life in a little house in the middle of nowhere. Nothing wrong with that, it's not a bad or a grand house, but it's reminiscent of Diane's and Wayne's place. Diane and Wayne probably had a cozy and romantic life, much of the time.

Sawyer wants to drink and flirt with her. Nothing wrong with that, but Wayne was a drinker and a flirt.

As part of her con, Kate carries the food tray to Miles. Can't find a screencap, but I remember that Kate looked very much like a waitress. At some deep subconscious level, she may even have felt like one. Diane was a waitress. (And Diane appears in a fb, very close to Kate's waitress scene, reminding us of Kate's whole Wayne and Mom gig.)

So during this last night with Sawyer, Diane and Wayne are very much in the back of Kate's mind.
Then Sawyer grabs her wrist. The last evidence of Wayne's abuse that Kate saw was Diane's bruised wrist.

Sawyer didn't do anything wrong, but Kate reacts from a very painful emotional place.
That's what happens in real relationships.

Great character writing, imo.. Kudos to SARNOFF AND NATIONS!

I think Sawyer was right; she's screwing with both him and Jack, and I don't mean literally. I'm pretty mad at her for all this; it seems to me that they'd be glad she wasn't pregnant simply because women who get preg on teh island DIE! He's not softie enough to say that, so he makes it like a 'we couldn't raise a kid' thing, and she's too dumb to see it. She has no reason to want to be pregnant, and using a lie for an excuse is really crappy.

I really don't think the slap had anything to do with him being glad she wasn't pregnant. I think it was because he called her on how she goes back and forth between him and Jack. Sawyer has always seemed quite a realist about their relationship. He is fully aware when she is using him/ treating him badly, and he lets her know it (and is rather accepting of it at times). I think perhaps Kate is still in a bit of denial about how she is being.

As for Sawyer's gladness about her not being pregnant... so what? He is entitled to not want a child. He doesn't have to pretend to not be relieved if that's how he feels.

Kate is flip flopping between both Sawyer and Jack. Sawyer is right for calling her on that, she was just looking for an excuse to leave. Kate should just be honest if she can't decide between the two and tell them.

Here is what I think, plain and simple....he got the smack because of the smartass comment he threw in there about Jack. Enough said.

I actually thought Kate was making up her mind whether to stay on the island or not. As Sawyer pointed out in the last episode, she has nothing to go back for. This was confirmed in her conversation with Miles that, if she left, she was going to have a heck of a hard time sneaking away this time. Sawyer made her the offer to "play house" and then "unbanished" her and said he'd protect her. This gave Kate some comfort that maybe staying with Sawyer would be a good decision. She clearly cares about him and, on the island, she's "free".

As much as Kate is to blame for the misunderstandings between her and Sawyer, so is Sawyer. He's always assumed Kate's feelings for Jack are at the root of any problems they had together. Sometimes Kate's problems have been "Jack-related" but sometimes they've been due to her fear of commitment. And sometimes, they've been due to the way Sawyer behaves. In this case, I gotta lay the initial blame for the whole argument on Sawyer here - even though I can't blame him for being clueless about this stuff. I can't speak for all women but I'd venture a guess that most of us would not want to see our guy dance a jig of glee when he found out we weren't pregnant. That just sets off the question "OMG, What if I had been?" I think that's just what comes with being the one who's probably going to be primarily responsible for taking care of any kids. You want or need to know if you're going to have any support out there. Sawyer's response is what makes Kate want to leave and go back to the beach.

His comment about Jack is what angers her enough to slap him. I think Kate felt she was really going to try and give the thing with Sawyer a fair shot. I think Sawyer is the one who's blown it, frankly, because he gave Kate no hope that, whatever this thing is that they have, it might grow or become anything more than it is right now. He's gone from accepting her "casual, use me however you want" terms to offering her an "island marriage" of sorts and then, back to "casual use-me however you want" terms. I think his joking about just trying to get into her pants by saying he'd protect her didn't give her much solace either.

While I can't fault Sawyer for "telling it like it is" about Kate's flip-flopping, which has aggravated most of the audience too, I hated the way he said it. It was mean-spirited and showed that he doesn't think any better of his relationship with Kate than he does of himself.

Kate smacked Sawyer because he challenged her about her constant waffling between him and Jack. He knows her so well. She doesn't like that. She feels threatened when he exposes her questionable behaviour.

I think Sawyer is the one who's blown it, frankly, because he gave Kate no hope that, whatever this thing is that they have, it might grow or become anything more than it is right now. He's gone from accepting her "casual, use me however you want" terms to offering her an "island marriage" of sorts and then, back to "casual use-me however you want" terms. I think his joking about just trying to get into her pants by saying he'd protect her didn't give her much solace either.


I guess I disagree, because Kate told him straight up that she wasn't moving in with him, wasn't staying for him, and even did the whole flirt-to-use move that he so quickly noticed. I think his only choice is to be casual about the whole thing, if he wants her in his life at all. He could get huffy and sad that she isn't accepting his 'proposal', but he'd rather keep her friendship and some lovins' on the side.

I'm trying to figure out what message the writers were trying to send us with this episode. They have the power to make us hate or love a character. They know people love Sawyer, and that most people want to love Kate. (That's my opinion, anyway.)

So, in this ep, I think they either a) wanted us to hate Kate, and sympathize with Sawyer or b) wanted us to sympathize with Kate by giving us 'clues' for how we should feel

If it's b), the clues they gave us weren't enough for me. The clues I'm referring to are things like,
--Locke being an *** to her
--Sawyer being unsupportive if she were pregnant
--Sawyer holding her wrists and being sexually aggressive
--Sawyer expecting her to be there to stay with him
--sympathizing with her over her fugitve status

I simply didnt' find any of these 'clues' convincing at all. I've got reasons for why none of them do it for me:
--What she did with Miles was a bad deal for her, and really dangerous for the entire group.
--Pregnant women die on this island, and she and Sawyer are two fugitive who have killed people...why should they even think about having a baby? (However, it would have been more telling if the writers had thrown in a line where Sawyer says, "Don't you remember what happens to pregnant women on this island?" I wonder why TPTB didn't do that...)
--Sawyer held her wrists during the scene in I DO, and that's a common sexy 'move'...and she was the initiator anyway. Sawyer joking about having sex is a way to have dialogue about the situation, without making it too seriuos to keep flirting. I think he has the right to keep things light while showing her he's turned on. She absolutely has the right to say NO, but her actions were confusing and she should have communicated her feelings better, IMO.
--Sawyer made a good point about her staying, and in this episode she was trying to figure out if it was true. She found out it was, but now she's being bitc*y to him anyway. Why not figure out what the best possibility for her is, rather than purposely burn your bridges? She could still try to stay in Othersville, even not being 'with' Sawyer. Who's to say Jack won't be upset with her when she bounces back to him?
--Yeah, the fugitive thing is just still not doing it for me. They don't stress the 'abusive father' thing enough for us to sympathize with her. Her look, her attitude, her repsonse to her dying mother in the FF was too pissy and aloof to feel anything for her.

Whew!

Sawyer was being conceded.

I'm glad he got hit.

I guess I disagree, because Kate told him straight up that she wasn't moving in with him, wasn't staying for him, and even did the whole flirt-to-use move that he so quickly noticed. I think his only choice is to be casual about the whole thing, if he wants her in his life at all. He could get huffy and sad that she isn't accepting his 'proposal', but he'd rather keep her friendship and some lovins' on the side.

Yes, but this was after she'd brought up the subject of her possible pregnancy in the Season 3 finale and he growled "Let's hope you're not!" and after he chose to go with Locke instead of staying with her on Jack's team and said it was because he was "Survivin'". I can't argue that he made the effort with his "let's play house" invitation and I think that was what made Kate even consider staying after the events of the finale. But then, he sort of "counted his chickens" by assuming Kate would move in with him and that ticked her off. I also think she was keeping her options open about whether or not she was going to stay or go until she confirmed that the Freighties know all there is to know about her. At that point, she felt trapped and hopeless about any free future on the island and seem resigned to, at least, try with Sawyer. Unfortunately, he'd read her previous signals as wanting to be "casual" again.

I don't really "blame" Sawyer but it bothers me that he has so little self-esteem that he lets her unilaterally decide what the terms of their relationship are going to be - but he also pretends like it doesn't bother him, as though he has no standards at all about how he wants to be treated. But we can see in his reactions that he does care - that it does hurt or that it does make him angry.

As much as Kate is to blame for being wishy-washy, Sawyer is to blame for hardly ever letting his real feelings show to Kate - for always cracking a joke instead of honestly talking about how he feels. For pretending it's OK for her to use him even though it really isn't. It reminds me of his quote to Jack about people being "like dogs." If you kick them enough, they start to believe they deserve it. For whatever reason, as far as I can see, the Kate/Sawyer dynamic is and pretty much always has been like this. She's in control and he takes whatever he can get. I don't enjoy watching it and I'm tired of seeing Kate made to look bad because poor Sawyer is getting hurt again.

As much as Kate is to blame for being wishy-washy, Sawyer is to blame for hardly ever letting his real feelings show to Kate - for always cracking a joke instead of honestly talking about how he feels.Sawyer's the only who DOES speak honestly. He called her on her BS, and this isn't the first time (and she isn't the first person to feel the sting of his particular brand of truth). You even said so yourself a few posts back:

While I can't fault Sawyer for "telling it like it is" about Kate's flip-flopping, which has aggravated most of the audience too . . . Sure, he's an idiot for agreeing to let her use him, but you can't say he isn't honest about how he feels. Even telling her she can use him, he's being honest about it. That honesty is one of the things I love best about the character.


I don't enjoy watching it and I'm tired of seeing Kate made to look bad because poor Sawyer is getting hurt again.Kate looks bad because she plays BOTH men, not just Sawyer.

In this case, I gotta lay the initial blame for the whole argument on Sawyer here - even though I can't blame him for being clueless about this stuff. I can't speak for all women but I'd venture a guess that most of us would not want to see our guy dance a jig of glee when he found out we weren't pregnant.

I don't think that anyone can even assume that MOST women would feel as you do. And it never made any sense that Kate would be upset, considering that she couldn't even get herself to hold, let alone touch Aaron, several hours earlier. There seemed to be no real consistency in Kate's reaction.

After reading most of the opinions on this thread, I have to agree with Dany_E, at least on the part of Kate's motivation. I think what we were seeing from Kate in this episode was her coming to personal decisions on several things: whether to stay on the island or leave, choose Jack or Sawyer, and the idea of being a mother.

She interrogated Miles to find out what he knew about her, probably because she was hoping that if she did leave, it would be easier to adjust with most of the public at large not knowing about her actions. She purposely danced around the pregnancy issue (until the end) to see what Sawyer's reaction would be. Sure, if he was into being a dad, she'd know that it would be necessary to leave, and maybe that's the other reason she was looking for him to react positively. If he wanted a child, it would be easier to convince him to leave so she didn't die during pregnancy.

I think the overall theme is her tendency to run from difficult situations. Maybe what she really wanted was to be forced into staying with something, no matter what it was. If she really were pregnant, then she might be forced to stick it out with Sawyer. When she finally does leave, maybe she resigned herself to being found guilty of her crimes, in which case she'd be forced to stick it out in prison. Finally, she accepts a plea that forces her to stay in California, so running is out of the question. Ironic that in the end, Jack of all people tries to convince her to run yet again and go back to the island.

She purposely danced around the pregnancy issue (until the end) to see what Sawyer's reaction would be. Sure, if he was into being a dad, she'd know that it would be necessary to leave, and maybe that's the other reason she was looking for him to react positively. If he wanted a child, it would be easier to convince him to leave so she didn't die during pregnancy.

I think the overall theme is her tendency to run from difficult situations. Maybe what she really wanted was to be forced into staying with something, no matter what it was. If she really were pregnant, then she might be forced to stick it out with Sawyer.

That's interesting....that she's hoping some issue will 'force' her to decide. I totally know people like that, who wait for some big sign to tell them what to do (in fact, I think we all do it to some degree.)

It seemed to me that he was realizing how serious the issue might be, and kept trying to bring it up, honestly, seriously, with an air of support. She was the one who didn't want to talk about it, and told him to "Go home, Sawyer." In TTLG, he said, "Let's hope you're not," and sure, that wasn't the nicest thing to say, but he's doing his best in this ep to make up for that, now that he thinks it may actually be true and that she's mad at him for that statement.

If she's testing his reaction, the real test would be if she actually was pregnant, see how he'd react then. Of course these are fictional characters (hard to remember sometimes :) ), but I could see him showing support through that situation.

But Sawyer has every right to be completely stoked about her not being pregnant. As women, of course we would want and expect our partner to be supportive of our decisions regarding pregnancy, but that doesn't mean they don't have the right to their own opinion of what would be best, for themselves, for the woman, for a potential child. As much as it's nice for a man to be sensitive to a woman dealing with a potential pregnancy, it's nice for the woman to consider the man's feelings too.

I think that her behavior here is pretty consistent with what we've seen....a woman who CANNOT commit, even to things she claims to want. Look at her relationship with childhood sweetheart, with her husband, and with Jack even.

Part of her wants a stable relationship...yet every time she gets close, she flees in SUPER dramatic fashion. She realizes that Sawyer is ready to commit...and that scares her so badly that she purposely creates so much drama that she needs to leave. She can't help herself. And her behavior is becoming more and more unreasonable because she's under more stress.

I also believe this is why she has become more intimate with Sawyer than Jack. Sawyer is way more like her....and Sawyer is someone who will always giver her an excuse to leave...an escape hatch, if you will. It's much harder to rationalize leaving someone like Jack, who in her mind is more stable and respectable.

Does that make any sense?

That absolutely makes sense applesister! It actually sounds like real women I know.

My only difference in opinion is that I think Jack isn't quite as stable as we all originally thought in The Pilot. His backstories (and flashforward too!) are just as filled with angst and issues as other Losties. He's also been just as harsh toward Kate as Sawyer has (think, WTCMB, The Hunting Party, Left Behind), and he's 'cheated' on his wife, consistently had issues with his dad, pushed a Thai woman against a wall to get a tattoo, stalked his ex-wife, punched his dad, etc... on the island he's been a basket case at times, just almost shooting Locke in the face.....and in the future we see something far worse than any of that.

I believe it's just a standard TV viewer hope/need/expectation that the main male character is our 'hero', goes thru some drama but always comes out on top, usually with the lead female on his arm, etc. I love Lost because they make us question who the real heroes are. It's confusing and sometimes it makes it so uncomfortable, because we're used to TV shows giving us a hero, giving us a villain, etc. Of course, as much as Lost is a unique show, I still expect Jack to come out on top in the end, with Kate on his arm. That's why I'm so against them getting together. :biggrin:

I 100% agree about Jack, wemoon! I think he is extremely unstable, maybe even more so than Sawyer and Kate. But I also think (and maybe I wasn't clear enough) that Kate believes in his surface appearance. A doctor, a leader, a respectable member of society. I think she's so consumed with her own issues, that she's not looking at Jack very critically, as, say, Sayid is starting to.

And I agree that the way we are slowing seeing that the "heroes" are maybe not so heroic, and the "anti-heroes" maybe are actually brave and strong is fascinating! It's why I love this show!

(And I'll have to respectfully disagree about Kate ending up on Jack's arm. But to each his own! :biggrin: )

To put a little perspective on Kate's reaction-

Events leading to the smackdown remind Kate of Diane and Wayne.

Sawyer wants her to live a cozy and romantic life in a little house in the middle of nowhere. Nothing wrong with that, it's not a bad or a grand house, but it's reminiscent of Diane's and Wayne's place. Diane and Wayne probably had a cozy and romantic life, much of the time.

Sawyer wants to drink and flirt with her. Nothing wrong with that, but Wayne was a drinker and a flirt.

As part of her con, Kate carries the food tray to Miles. Can't find a screencap, but I remember that Kate looked very much like a waitress. At some deep subconscious level, she may even have felt like one. Diane was a waitress. (And Diane appears in a fb, very close to Kate's waitress scene, reminding us of Kate's whole Wayne and Mom gig.)

So during this last night with Sawyer, Diane and Wayne are very much in the back of Kate's mind.
Then Sawyer grabs her wrist. The last evidence of Wayne's abuse that Kate saw was Diane's bruised wrist.

Sawyer didn't do anything wrong, but Kate reacts from a very painful emotional place.
That's what happens in real relationships.

Great character writing, imo.. Kudos to SARNOFF AND NATIONS!


That's a VERY interesting parallel, actually...and there is also a possiblity that Wayne didnt want Kate as a child either. Yet to be seen (?)

To put a little perspective on Kate's reaction-

Events leading to the smackdown remind Kate of Diane and Wayne.

Sawyer wants her to live a cozy and romantic life in a little house in the middle of nowhere. Nothing wrong with that, it's not a bad or a grand house, but it's reminiscent of Diane's and Wayne's place. Diane and Wayne probably had a cozy and romantic life, much of the time.

Sawyer wants to drink and flirt with her. Nothing wrong with that, but Wayne was a drinker and a flirt.

As part of her con, Kate carries the food tray to Miles. Can't find a screencap, but I remember that Kate looked very much like a waitress. At some deep subconscious level, she may even have felt like one. Diane was a waitress. (And Diane appears in a fb, very close to Kate's waitress scene, reminding us of Kate's whole Wayne and Mom gig.)

So during this last night with Sawyer, Diane and Wayne are very much in the back of Kate's mind.
Then Sawyer grabs her wrist. The last evidence of Wayne's abuse that Kate saw was Diane's bruised wrist.

Sawyer didn't do anything wrong, but Kate reacts from a very painful emotional place.
That's what happens in real relationships.

Great character writing, imo.. Kudos to SARNOFF AND NATIONS!

Excellent analysis! I noticed the wrist-grabbing reaction, too, but didn't think of the association with Wayne/Diane. According to the commentary on What Kate Did, Kate's wrists being grabbed was an important reoccurring motif, and here they chose to repeat it.

They also focused on Sawyer holding (http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage-1196-625.html) Kate's (http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage-1196-626.html) wrists in "I Do" but she didn't have this kind of reaction back then.

I really didn't have a problem with the pinning of the wrists by Sawyer. He let go of her as soon as she let him know she wasn't interested so that was just part of the foreplay and kind of hot if you're in the mood for sex. He grabbed her wrists in "I Do" and pinned them to the bars of the cage and she didn't seem to be bothered by it.

I took Kate's whole attitude toward Sawyer as her trying to decide if she loved him and if she wanted to spend the rest of her life with him. Jack's ILU rattled her and his sending her right back into Sawyer's arms after the confession may have finally woke her up and made her think about the game she's been playing with the two men and made her seriously question her feelings for Sawyer vs. her feelings for Jack.

I think she really wanted to feel something for Sawyer and make a go of it with him, but for the first time, because she is at a point where it really matters, her eyes were wide open to what he's really all about and instead of feeling love or any kind of desire to be with him, she found herself becoming repulsed by him and became even more confused and wanted to understand why because she honestly cares for the man.

I think her going to Sawyer when Locke banished her, spending the night with him and waking him up the way she did was Kate attempting to recapture whatever it was about him that had drawn her to him in the first place, trying to find the spark that for reasons she can't understand is all of the sudden gone, but it's not there, she no longer wants him sexually and she knows that and probably wanted to try to talk to him about it, but when he brought up the pregnancy thing and reacted the way he did to the news she just decided it wasn't worth the effort to talk to him or to try to recapture something that was never that deep to begin with and decided to leave.

I think the slap was out of frustration and a little bit of her being tired of him spitting Jack's name at her like he's the most vile person on the face of the earth and the only reason Sawyer can't make things work with Kate instead of taking some personal responsibility for why things aren't working.

To me the island stuff seemed to be about Kate coming to grips with her feelings for Sawyer and ending that relationship. She couldn't find the desire to sleep with him when two or three days ago she couldn't curb the hunger and he hadn't done anything or behaved any differently than he always has but she no longer finds him desirable and that's kind of huge. It would seem that Kate grew a little bit and to send her running back to Sawyer would be very confusing.

However, I may have misinterpreted the writers intentions because I rarely understand anything Kate does so they could kiss and make up this week and have sex in the boat house while Miles watches with a grenade in his mouth and I wouldn't be shocked or anything.

Kate is angry, she smacked him (well, lets be real, she backhanded him with a closed fist, it's a punch really) because she is also confused, scared, and she needed a shoulder not a preacher. Sawyer was a bit holier than thou with his little speech.

But also, she wants Sawyer to go with her, more over, she wants him to want to go with her, and he does not. That was probably a lot to process.

Anyway, I think she hit him because she was mad at him. About that simple.

However, I may have misinterpreted the writers intentions because I rarely understand anything Kate does so they could kiss and make up this week and have sex in the boat house while Miles watches with a grenade in his mouth and I wouldn't be shocked or anything.

Kinky. I don't think there will be any kissing and making up soon for them. Sawyer blew it and he did deserved to be slapped, espeically considering his arrogant attitude that she would be back in a week's time. Kate and Sawyer are in two totally different places.

great post flyer! :thumbup:


I think she really wanted to feel something for Sawyer and make a go of it with him, but for the first time, because she is at a point where it really matters, her eyes were wide open to what he's really all about and instead of feeling love or any kind of desire to be with him, she found herself becoming repulsed by him and became even more confused and wanted to understand why because she honestly cares for the man.
I think her going to Sawyer when Locke banished her, spending the night with him and waking him up the way she did was Kate attempting to recapture whatever it was about him that had drawn her to him in the first place, trying to find the spark that for reasons she can't understand is all of the sudden gone, but it's not there, she no longer wants him sexually and she knows that and probably wanted to try to talk to him about it, but when he brought up the pregnancy thing and reacted the way he did to the news she just decided it wasn't worth the effort to talk to him or to try to recapture something that was never that deep to begin with and decided to leave.


ITA!

According to the commentary on What Kate Did, Kate's wrists being grabbed was an important reoccurring motif, and here they chose to repeat it.

Interesting.
So for Kate, wrists are about confinement, the thing she dreads the most.
When Sawyer pinned her wrists in the cave, the handcuff-wrist emotional baggage wouldn't have been triggered, because they were already confined, Sawyer's life seemed about to end, and emotions were running super-high.

In the playhouse, though, the wrist-grabbing would greater impact on Kate.
Poor Sawyer had no way of knowing..

So for Kate, wrists are about confinement, the thing she dreads the most.

Yes, think about all the times we've seen Kate's wrists pinned or hand-cuffed---with the marshal, with Sawyer, with Ben at breakfast... It's like the wrists set off her fight-or-flight mechanism.

Applesister brought up Kate's pattern of wanting, getting, not wanting anymore and needing to create drama for an excuse to leave. I know those women! They can't be happy once they attain what they think they want. Commitment is confinement, I guess? They've got to run away from it. Kate's lawyer doesn't want her to take the "don't leave the state" deal---does he think she can't stay put? I'm not sure I'd believe it, given her past record.

why would she be happy being pregnant with Sawyers child?
I mean, she knows pregnant women and their baby's die on the island.. doesnt make any sense

Why? Sun was happy to have Jin's child and not jae's and it means death for her too...

Just wanna say that it's not the first time kate smack sawyer...she also punched him just after their first kiss!

Interesting about the wrists and confinement observation. I noticed the purposeful shot of that in Eggtown.

Why? Sun was happy to have Jin's child and not jae's and it means death for her too...

The difference is that we already knew that Sun and Jin had very much wanted a child. I've never gotten the feeling that Kate really did.

Maybe It just me-But being a mature sexually active female I find the wrist holding quite HOT! I don't think it was meant to be taken in any matter other than these two know how to get it on in the sack. I think they both are very aggressive lovers.

great post flyer! :thumbup:



ITA!


MAJOR DITTO.