okay, i didn't see this posted anywhere else, and i'll probably get jumped all over for it, but here goes: when i saw the card "game" between Charlotte and Daniel my first thought was that they had done all of this before somehow. the cards are like an exercise, they can only remember so much each time they "loop", so they are trying to learn to remember things better from loop to loop. why? i think they are there to try and stop something from happening, but they can only do that if they remember exactly HOW it happened. that's why daniel is so upset when he can't remember all the cards, he thinks they are going to "get it wrong" again, and will end up having to do it all over. that's also why daniel is so upset at the beginning of episode 2, deep down inside he knows what's going to happen, but hes not sure why or how, or what he can do to stop it. sort of like Desmond.

i know this might seem kind of far-fetched, but i really can't think of any other reason why they would have shown us those two playing that memory game. everything that has been shown about these 2 (from the rocket to the polar bear fossil) has had something to do with the wierdness of time on the island, so i think that this scene probably deals with that theme as well.

okay, i didn't see this posted anywhere else, and i'll probably get jumped all over for it, but here goes: when i saw the card "game" between Charlotte and Daniel my first thought was that they had done all of this before somehow. the cards are like an exercise, they can only remember so much each time they "loop", so they are trying to learn to remember things better from loop to loop. why? i think they are there to try and stop something from happening, but they can only do that if they remember exactly HOW it happened. that's why daniel is so upset when he can't remember all the cards, he thinks they are going to "get it wrong" again, and will end up having to do it all over. that's also why daniel is so upset at the beginning of episode 2, deep down inside he knows what's going to happen, but hes not sure why or how, or what he can do to stop it. sort of like Desmond.

i know this might seem kind of far-fetched, but i really can't think of any other reason why they would have shown us those two playing that memory game. everything that has been shown about these 2 (from the rocket to the polar bear fossil) has had something to do with the wierdness of time on the island, so i think that this scene probably deals with that theme as well.

I think the card game is important, and was intended as a clue for us, but a clue to what? If you listened to this week's podcast with Damon and Carlton, they pretty much said that there are not alternate time lines. I don't know if that definitively rules out time "loops" or not but I think it might. But it does seem like Daniel is trying to remember the three cards, rather than naming them as in some kind of psychic experiment.

So what do people think?

i haven't checked out this week's podcast, can you summarize what they say about the timeline?

I think it had more to do with Daniel himself, rather than a loop. It seemed like he was having some memory problems. The way she said, "Two this time, it's an improvment" (or something like that) and his reaction, "It's only 3 cards!" (or something like that) made me think that he was having some memory issues. Like he was losing his memory and didn't know why or what was going on. Maybe the island will heal him and that's why he wanted to come?

I If you listened to this week's podcast with Damon and Carlton, they pretty much said that there are not alternate time lines. I don't know if that definitively rules out time "loops" or not but I think it might. But it does seem like Daniel is trying to remember the three cards, rather than naming them as in some kind of psychic experiment.
So what do people think?

Yes, Darlton yukked "multiple iterations", specifically.

I've read just about every post in this thread on the cards and I've still got nothing. I think it's more literal than symbolic, in other words it was more about Daniel than the cards. Even tho there was some symbolism in the cards, that's not as important as the exercise itself. So I've got it in the teaser category for now, waiting to see where the writers are taking us...

yeah, but it could also have been Charlotte saying "hey, two is better than the last time we did all this, that time you only got one!" and daniel being frustrated that they aren't making enough progress from loop to loop

I think it had more to do with Daniel himself, rather than a loop. It seemed like he was having some memory problems. The way she said, "Two this time, it's an improvment" (or something like that) and his reaction, "It's only 3 cards!" (or something like that) made me think that he was having some memory issues. Like he was losing his memory and didn't know why or what was going on. Maybe the island will heal him and that's why he wanted to come?

Yes, something like this makes sense. I think you are right that it probably has more to do with Daniel than it does with a time issue.

i haven't checked out this week's podcast, can you summarize what they say about the timeline? It was an EW interview, not a podcast, and you can read the whole thing online.

It's only very mildlishly spoilerish, but I'll spoilerfont the link, to be uber-safe.

here (http://www.ew.com/ew/article/0,,20179125_2,00.html)

I think it had more to do with Daniel himself, rather than a loop. It seemed like he was having some memory problems. The way she said, "Two this time, it's an improvment" (or something like that) and his reaction, "It's only 3 cards!" (or something like that) made me think that he was having some memory issues. Like he was losing his memory and didn't know why or what was going on. Maybe the island will heal him and that's why he wanted to come?

Yes, something like this makes sense. I think you are right that it probably has more to do with Daniel than it does with a time issue. Maybe it is also related to why he had a caretaker in the freighties' flashback and why the others from the chopper treat him like he's an unreliable kid. And why he's so halting and hesitant when he speaks. (I had him chalked up as the absent-minded professor type, but it must be more than that).

thanks for posting that lotmio, but after reading it, i don't think it rules out a LINEAR time loop. they were debunking the idea of the flash-forwards being "possible" futures, which could change. i don't believe that to be the case. everything we see is really happening, and cannot be changed, but depending on the final outcome, some people may have to keep doing it over again until they "get it right". i may be getting nit-picky, but i think when carlton uses the word "iterations", he is refering to POSSIBILITIES, not actual repetitions or loops. what do you guys think?

ETA: also, in the preview for next week, we see a very different looking des grabbing a long-haired Daniel in some sort of off-island classroom setting screaming something like "how am i going to die!" it certainly seems like Daniel has some insider info., and i can't figure how else he would get it.

Daniel doesn't seem to know much about the island but I was thinking about that card game and how the island "heals". Maybe Charlotte knows something Daniel doesn't?

but after reading it, i don't think it rules out a LINEAR time loop. they were debunking the idea of the flash-forwards being "possible" futures, which could change. i don't believe that to be the case. everything we see is really happening, and cannot be changed, but depending on the final outcome, some people may have to keep doing it over again until they "get it right".

Time loops by definition are not linear.
Your theory that the characters will keep looping until they "get it right", ie. is exactly what Darlton said they will not do: alternate realties and/or changed futures.

I'm know I'm whisting in the wind, I said when the interview broke that it wouldn't faze the time loopers...:), so I'll get out of your alternate reality.

Maybe charlotte put down 3 random cards and Daniel guessed two out of three.
BTW. what where the three cards that she pulled?

I just thought it was an exercise for Dan...like therapy. We know he had a nurse, right? Maybe Charlotte is acting in that capacity somewhat.

Time loops by definition are not linear.
Your theory that the characters will keep looping until they "get it right", ie. is exactly what Darlton said they will not do: alternate realties and/or changed futures.

I'm know I'm whisting in the wind, I said when the interview broke that it wouldn't faze the time loopers...:), so I'll get out of your alternate reality.

I don't think that is what Darlton meant. What he meant was the flash forwards are absolute outcomes not just possible future events. There could be time-looping going on right now, but ultimately, no matter how the potential time anomaly issues are resolved, the flash forwards will come to pass. So I guess I disagree that Darlton's comments preclude time-looping.

I think it is possible time-looping is happening, but I also think it is possible that there are some dimensional shifts going on. The freighties may be trying to insert themselve in the time-loop not only at the right time, but also in the right "reality". The card game could be a test as to if they are in the correct realilty.

Quantum Mechanics, in very simple terms, theorizes that at every moment, every possible outcome is realized in separate dimensions or realities. For example. At this very moment the next letter I type could be a "x". Now according to quantum mechanics there are 26 different universes out there where I typed a different letter. Actually, there are probably an infinite number of universes where I typed one of an infinite number of textual patters.

Anyway, this is why a lot of people don't believe in time paradoxes where if you travel back in time and kill your grandfather before you were born, then how could you exist to travel back in time to kill your grandfather? When you went back in time you would be in one of an infinite number of parallel universes where you were never born anyway and kill the person who's only significance is he was your grandfather in other parallel universes/realities.

Any takers?

I'm wondering if Daniel is showing some signs of early dementia. He might be testing his recall to check for progression. The caretaker bit in the the flash forward would support this, but he still seems quite able to carry on experiments which would argue against the inability to remember 3 cards.

Damon saying the time alterations does not rule out events and people existing in other dimensions. Interdimensional connections could explain the polar bear in Tunisia and Charlie being dead, but still there.

I like the idea of the island being inside a rift in the time-space continuum.
100%
I don't think that is what Darlton meant. What he meant was the flash forwards are absolute outcomes not just possible future events. There could be time-looping going on right now, but ultimately, no matter how the potential time anomaly issues are resolved, the flash forwards will come to pass. So I guess I disagree that Darlton's comments preclude time-looping.

I think it is possible time-looping is happening, but I also think it is possible that there are some dimensional shifts going on. The freighties may be trying to insert themselve in the time-loop not only at the right time, but also in the right "reality". The card game could be a test as to if they are in the correct realilty.

Quantum Mechanics, in very simple terms, theorizes that at every moment, every possible outcome is realized in separate dimensions or realities. For example. At this very moment the next letter I type could be a "x". Now according to quantum mechanics there are 26 different universes out there where I typed a different letter. Actually, there are probably an infinite number of universes where I typed an one of an infinite number of textual patters.

Anyway, this is why a lot of people don't believe in time paradoxes where if you travel back in time and kill your grandfather before you were born, then how could you exist to travel back in time to kill your grandfather? When you went back in time you would be in one of an infinite number of universes where you were never born anyway and kill the person who's only significance is he was your grandfather in other parallel universes/realities.

Any takers?

I think we posted at about the same time. I really like your explanation

It was an EW interview, not a podcast, and you can read the whole thing online.

It's only very mildlishly spoilerish, but I'll spoilerfont the link, to be uber-safe.

here (http://www.ew.com/ew/article/0,,20179125_2,00.html)


There is some kind of 'contradiction' right there in the way they are describing how alternate realities and time travel work....


They say that they are ANTI-Paradox. Which is fine with me, because that would make the show even more complex, like they said it themselves. BUT the funny part is that alternate or parallel timelines/realities/universes are a very good 'device' to PREVENT Time Paradoxes from happening!!!!!!

When timetravel involves parallel universes, paradoxes are rendered NULL. They simply don't exist.


I also spoilerfonted just in case.... I don;t want any more infractions!!!!:frown:
100%
I don't think that is what Darlton meant. What he meant was the flash forwards are absolute outcomes not just possible future events. There could be time-looping going on right now, but ultimately, no matter how the potential time anomaly issues are resolved, the flash forwards will come to pass. So I guess I disagree that Darlton's comments preclude time-looping.

I think it is possible time-looping is happening, but I also think it is possible that there are some dimensional shifts going on. The freighties may be trying to insert themselve in the time-loop not only at the right time, but also in the right "reality". The card game could be a test as to if they are in the correct realilty.

Quantum Mechanics, in very simple terms, theorizes that at every moment, every possible outcome is realized in separate dimensions or realities. For example. At this very moment the next letter I type could be a "x". Now according to quantum mechanics there are 26 different universes out there where I typed a different letter. Actually, there are probably an infinite number of universes where I typed one of an infinite number of textual patters.

Anyway, this is why a lot of people don't believe in time paradoxes where if you travel back in time and kill your grandfather before you were born, then how could you exist to travel back in time to kill your grandfather? When you went back in time you would be in one of an infinite number of universes where you were never born anyway and kill the person who's only significance is he was your grandfather in other parallel universes/realities.

Any takers?

Yes, even if there are multiples realities going on, they can only focus on ONE. The one that we care about. They don't need to jump between universes ala sliders. Also, like I have said may times before, let's say there are 4, 8, 15 ,etc parallel universes involved, it wouldn't matter because the final result might be the same for all of them. All timelines end the same, through MULTIuniverse course-correction!!!:biggrin: Perhaps, as predicted by the Valenzzetti Equation.
No matter they path they chose, they will always end the same....

I thought that he was trying to predict what cards she picked. If it was a memory test, wouldn't she have used more than 3 cards?

Are we sure it is a memory game? Could it have been a test of ESP?

queen of diamonds, 6 of clubs, and 10 of hearts

And I remembered without looking :) I'm so proud of myself

Are we sure it is a memory game? Could it have been a test of ESP?

I don't know, it struck me as more of a memory test, but I don't know exactly why I think that! :rolleyes:

Wasn't the 10 of hearts what DF guessed, but was wrong?

Upon watching I thought the same things, it was an ESP or "future flash" test, not a simple remember the three cards for 5 minutes test.

anyone notice the playing card on the wall in aaron's room? i think it was the 7 or 8 of clubs. not the 6 of clubs which dan got wrong...

a screen cap would be nice ;)

It seemed obvious to me. He has problems with short-term memory, or "working memory." That is why he can't live alone, and had a "caregiver" (as clarified in the enhanced version) when we first saw him. It's possible that he has other memory problems as well. If he had a long-term memory problem as well, that might explain why he was emotional about the 815 recovery without knowing why.

Maybe she's trying to teach him to count cards? ;)