He is making his own government and playing by his own rules....banishes who he wants...

Dont tell him what to do!

What kind of government does he think he will have? Or will he abide by the laws and obligations of the group running the island keeping it hidden?

What up w/the grenade. Someone shoot Locke - he's a loose cannon!!!

He's turning into Jim Jones.
Don't drink the kool-aid

Looks like pickcing Locke does have consequences....

I think Locke is still a good guy.... he's just learning from his mistakes. He's "evolving." The whole grenade thing was great. He just needs to be firm when it calls for it (Miles) and he needs to have a nicer side with the whole cooking dinner for everyone and asking for Sawyer's opinion. They are going to make a great team.

Looks like pickcing Locke does have consequences....

Oh yeah, I'd agree with that. Locke sure kicked it up a notch recently.

Locke is scary right now. He seems to be turning on everyone. Doesn't he care about any of these people?

Ya know, I've always loved Locke, but I don't like dictator Locke at all, I must say. Hes getting a bit scary and annoying. What has he done to prove or decide that he must be the leader? Why does anyone follow his "orders" at all?

Guess they all really are sheep!

not so sure i like any dictator...but locke? gotta love him...seriously

and seriously...someone will tell him what to do...the island...????

I think Locke sees himself as the new Ben...taking over Ben's job of protecting the Island. Yeah, he was definitely scary tonight...and I don't think I like him this way. Way to scare young Miles, though. Whew!

I was waiting for Sawyer or Hurley to make the statement.............the beatings will continue until morale improves. Sawyer seems to be the only one that went with Locke that has any backbone.

I was waiting for Sawyer or Hurley to make the statement.............the beatings will continue until morale improves. Sawyer seems to be the only one that went with Locke that has any backbone.

I think Sawyer is mostly there for the hot showers, soft beds, hot coffee and lots of books.

He should have never yelled at Kate or threatened her.

Man, I hate his guts now.

I think Sawyer is mostly there for the hot showers, soft beds, hot coffee and lots of books.

Every Man for Himself, right?

lol i bet that grenade is hollowed out.

i mean come on, miles cant even go to sleep now, until locke comes bk for him.

he was probably just trying to scare the hell out of him so he'd cooperate.

but yeah, locke is being a little mean right now.

tho kate deserved it. she just uses everyone for what she wants and doesnt give a crap about them. imean she struck sawyer for saying the truth. gotta love how when a guy hits a girl for any reason it s a crime, but girls get away with hitting guys all the time. ^.^

He's obviously ruthlessly trying to protect the island. But I myself am confused about him and I'm wondering what the repercussions will be. If Walt talked to him and saved him from death, then why is he more lost than ever? I thought that was the moment that things were going to get clear for Locke, but no. Here we go again on the never-ending Locke roller coaster. Which is better than being boring and flat (like a sheep) I suppose.

I think Locke sees himself as the new Ben...taking over Ben's job of protecting the Island. Yeah, he was definitely scary tonight...and I don't think I like him this way. Way to scare young Miles, though. Whew!

i made mention of that last week in a thread (can't remember where), but it's even more true now.

Locke is completely becoming Ben. While he's always done what he felt the island wanted him to do, now it's about "The Island at all costs"

Maybe he's possessed....by Jacob...nah, he's definitely acting weird though. Not what I expected.

I have always been a huge locke fan, if for no other reason than he gets the sympathy vote, but tonight, he showed us that he has truly fucking lost it. Although my friends find Miles annoying, I find him intriguing and the grenade thing was totally uncalled for!!
His whole quote about "I am the person who is responsible for the fate of this island" (or something like that) . . . since when??? huh??

"The Island at all costs"

Yup. Kinda makes you wonder what the island is all about. Will the end justify the means? We'll know in about two years--way too early to know the context of Locke's actions right now.

I still think Locke is getting signs and signals from "good" forces and "evil" forces and he doesn't know which is which. He thinks all the signs he gets are good and, as he has done so many times in the past, he is trusting what he thinks is "the island" (just as he trusted the pot farmer and Cooper in the past), when some signs might be from other sources.

I think this is truly his journey: to learn who (or what) he should put his faith in, instead of going all 120% on everything.

Today was another reason why I choose team Jack over teams Locke. Locke has always been like this.

I like Jack's leading style WAY more then Locke's because if Jacob one day whispers in Lockes ear to kill you, Locke would never question it. HJe would just do it. H elives for the island and not the other survivors where Jack does.

I still think Locke is getting signs and signals from "good" forces and "evil" forces and he doesn't know which is which. He thinks all the signs he gets are good and, as he has done so many times in the past, he is trusting what he thinks is "the island" (just as he trusted the pot farmer and Cooper in the past), when some signs might be from other sources.

I think this is truly his journey: to learn who (or what) he should put his faith in, instead of going all 120% on everything.

Was it the 'good" force, or the 'evil' force who told him to kill the chicken? :laughing:

and why, if you just used the last two eggs, would you kill a chicken? Wouldn't you want all the chickens you could get to replenish Eggtown's depleted supply?

:chickn4:

Locke's crazy, JWB! (he, he)

Did you vote in the second round of the Miss Fuselage contest yet? I'm counting on you babe!

i made mention of that last week in a thread (can't remember where), but it's even more true now.

Locke is completely becoming Ben. While he's always done what he felt the island wanted him to do, now it's about "The Island at all costs"
Ah, great minds think alike, yes? :) I wasn't online after the show last week, so I didn't see your post, sorry. But it's nice to have someone agree with me! :)

I still think Locke is getting signs and signals from "good" forces and "evil" forces and he doesn't know which is which. He thinks all the signs he gets are good and, as he has done so many times in the past, he is trusting...
Good point! Cuz I've always rooted for Locke, and I hate to see him turn into someone we could dislike.

I think Sawyer is mostly there for the hot showers, soft beds, hot coffee and lots of books.
LOL! I think you've got it! (espc. the beds.) ;)

He's obviously ruthlessly trying to protect the island.... If Walt talked to him and saved him from death, then why is he more lost than ever?... Which is better than being boring and flat (like a sheep) I suppose.

Oh, you said it! He surely is more lost than ever, which means Ben was right about Locke, much as I hate to say it.
He's definitely not a sheep, not our Locke!

why, if you just used the last two eggs, would you kill a chicken? Wouldn't you want all the chickens you could get to replenish Eggtown's depleted supply?
:chickn4:

You'd think so, yes. :) But maybe he was thinking, "well, if that blasted hen won't lay more eggs, she's gonna be supper."

Unless killing a chicken was Gregg-speak for something more sinister....heh heh heh

And here I'd been hearing all along that Jack was the dictator - turns out Jack ran things democratically, at least according to Locke, whose experience with overbearing bosses gave him some perspective.

Locke's clearly gone off the reservation - Hurley was right, even if that line of his was a setup at the time.

Not to mention that Ben still knows exactly how to manipulate Locke. Seems most of the others can see thru Ben's games, but Locke falls for it every time. No wonder Ben stays with him.

And did you notice he didn't even afford Claire and Kate their privacy? I mean, can't he at least knock on the door before entering a house where two women live? He probably will not perv after any of them, but come on! When I'm alone in my house I walk around with a t-shirt and underwear, I wouldn't want anyone to see me like that (well except perhaps for Dr. Jack, but I digress).

Common courtsey, Mr. Locke!

Common courtsey, Mr. Locke!

Well, he was certainly courteous enough not to shoot her.

Hey if the grenade thing gets us one good piece to this big puzzle that is Lost I will praise the bald wonder for the rest of the season.

Well, he was certainly courteous enough not to shoot her.

Ummh, so getting Miles together with Ben is a Capital offense? Sorry, but no, no one has given Locke the right to go shooting the people that piss him off. Just as no one gave that right to Jack.

What's good for the goose.... and all that.

Although, if you asked me, Jack's still a much better leader than Locke ever was. But I still have faith that Locke will eventually learn which signs he's supposed to follow and which signs are bad and become a much better man.

Having faith is a good thing, being an extremist is not.

Ummh, so getting Miles together with Ben is a Capital offense? Sorry, but no, no one has given Locke the right to go shooting the people that piss him off. Just as no one gave that right to Jack.

Calm down. It was a joke. I failed to use an emoticon.:redface:

Ah, sorry I didn't get it! It's so hard to guess intent without hearing tone! ;)

Thanks for clarifying.

Not to mention that Ben still knows exactly how to manipulate Locke.

Mwahahahaha, I love it so. I shouldn't, cause Ben's evil, but I can't help myself. :devil2: Locke's no dictator. Ben pwned him again and he was taking his frustrations out on whoever was available, trying to show them who's boss. Ben is firmly in control so Locke can go around boasting all he wants, although yeah... that no knocking thing? Not nice dude! He perved on Jack in the showers before too so it's hardly surprising. :D

Locke ruled this episode. While talking with Sawyer he realized that he was insecure and just wanted everyone to appreciate him. Just because he doesn't rub it everyone's faces when he does something good for the Losties people easily forget all the huge contributions he has made (forum posters included). His kindness was once again taken advantage of by Kate so he counterbalanced into a serious badass. He will eventually find his happy medium once he gets comfortable or runs out of grenades.

I think Locke has lost it. His craziness was all over this episode...even though I enjoyed some of it.

- The "chicken killing"?? really?!
- Letting Kate know "this is not a democracy". Why couldn't she know where Miles was being held? She even tried to explain this to him when he "banished" her. I'm not defending Kate's deception either, just pointing out that she was right to be surprised and say "What gives you the right...?"
- Obviously Hurley is afraid of him. Just after being Scooby Doo'd, he said, "Please don't tell Locke it was me" or something like that.
- Walking into Claire/Kate's house without knocking, as if he just had the right to come and go as he pleased.
- The grenade thing of course.
- Banishing Kate.

And the ultimate sign of someone high on their own power and authority....fear of what other's think of them - threatened by those who don't "appreciate" what they have done. Ben so owns this guy right now. Locke is LOST!!!!

A person who feels out of control in the big ways will start exerting control over the things they can...decide who can live where or who can have what information...etc.

That's just my take. I actually have liked Locke very much. He just seemed way too over the edge for me in this one.

And did you notice he didn't even afford Claire and Kate their privacy? I mean, can't he at least knock on the door before entering a house where two women live? He probably will not perv after any of them, but come on! When I'm alone in my house I walk around with a t-shirt and underwear, I wouldn't want anyone to see me like that (well except perhaps for Dr. Jack, but I digress).

Common courtsey, Mr. Locke!

Ahhh but it's good to be king.

First time posting!!! :cool:

I agree with Lija on the whole Locke/Ben thing...It is silly to presume you have abruptly figured something out in Los, but I am ABSOLUTELY POSITIVE that Locke is desperately trying to be Ben...He is always defeated by Ben because, let's face it, Ben is the ultimate ultimate character. Doesn't make sense??? Locke is miraculously cured and The Island "loves" him, but he doesn't know anything and doesn't understand anything he does (the dreams, and other bs), while Ben actually knows EXACTLY what, how and why he is doing ALL the time. Locke is exceptionally frustrated by that (I mean, the tray- that doesn't look like our good ol' Locke, does it?), and now he wants to prove to himself and the rest he can be a primus inter parus as well, at least for his own sense of grandeur...And then, if you pay attention to what he actually says in the episode, it pretty much resembles something Ben would be saying, only less focused and eloquent, of course...
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Mwahahahaha, I love it so. I shouldn't, cause Ben's evil, but I can't help myself. :devil2:

Not to be mean :biggrin:, but I assume that, if you like the show, and watch it closely, you also figured out that Ben is *most probably* not an evil character AT ALL, but merely doing stuff for the greater good...

I think Locke is a firm believer of the "greater good". He will do what he thinks is best for everybody in the long run, and nobody will get in his way.

has Locke gone nuts with power?







"Driveshaft, more like Suckshaft"

Not to be mean :biggrin:, but I assume that, if you like the show, and watch it closely, you also figured out that Ben is *most probably* not an evil character AT ALL, but merely doing stuff for the greater good...

Not to be a :dog: to a n00b (Welcome, btw! ;)), but I don't think I need to be told where to draw the line when it comes to evil/not evil and I draw mine at committing genocide, regardless of the greater purpose. I just don't do moral relativism, that's Locke's thing. Where you draw yours is another matter, but yeah, Ben's a psycho and I love him for it.

dgeiger, I think that's pretty much spot on, especailly about the loss of control. It's ridiculous how Locke and Sawyer never learn. First Sawyer tells Karl not to let Ben play him and a minute later he falls for the exact same trick and now Locke tells Ben "I know what you're doing" and a minute later loses it in the hallway, much like in the hatch where Ben can hear him.

Well, he ALWAYS had sort of a 'God' complex. (I mean always in the sense of being on the island - we know that before the island he was a victim of his circumstances instead of controlling them) But, he is either a genius or a complete and utter idiot. I'm trying to decide which...
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subscribing...

Crazy with his new power - I say no.
Which doesn't mean that Locke knows what he's doing, though. I think right now he's really more lost than he's ever been, just like Ben said. But I don#t think he's any more or less crazy than he was before.
A little drunk with power, maybe. But he's still following an agenda.

I voted no, but that is probably because of the wording of the poll. Is Locke "crazy" or "going crazy?" No.

Is Locke going downhill (admittedly, a short slope) as a leader of people? Yes. He is best as the leader of the true Team Locke--with himself as the only member. He doesn't have the people skills to be a true leader. Best thing for Locke at this point would be for him to lose all credibility as the leader of the "Not Penny's Boat" faction and set out on his own. Staying in the Other's suburbia is something he's already chided Ben about last season.

I think Locke is a firm believer of the "greater good". He will do what he thinks is best for everybody in the long run, and nobody will get in his way.

I think what you described was more of a Jack character trait. While I nearly agree with you on the Locke front, I think that Locke has his limits. He did not shoot Jack even though this entire freighter dilemma could have been avoided pre-satellite phone call. On the other hand, Sheppard lost control completely.

Not to be a :dog: to a n00b (Welcome, btw! ;)), but I don't think I need to be told where to draw the line when it comes to evil/not evil and I draw mine at committing genocide, regardless of the greater purpose. I just don't do moral relativism, that's Locke's thing. Where you draw yours is another matter, but yeah, Ben's a psycho and I love him for it.

Haha, thanks, I see this is a beginning of a beautiful friendship :D Yup, I LOVE Ben too, but because I think he's seXy, so it's a different thing, I guess...:cool:

As for the whole evil/not evil/psycho/angel thing, I would just like to briefly elaborate on that...When I said Ben was not an evil character at all, I didn't mean that he didn't do anything bad or wrong (or, I have to say, what WE THOUGHT was wrong; 'cause we don't know nuthin' yet :rolleyes:), since we've seen the things he's done, and some of them are NOT good for sure...However, I think that all of his actions will be eXplained in the way we will end up thinking how he did it for the right reasons (you must admit there is often a lot of emotional turmoil in him, like that girl Annie, Alex, and then, when he killed his dad and somehow participated in the murders of the Dharma people, he certainly wasn't smirking about it), and how he, actually, didn't do anything for his personal benefit or because he was stressed out as a kid. Hope this makes more sense...:)

He's definitely not a sheep, not our Locke!

Was that sarcastic? 'Cause the Locke I've seen since season one has done anything anyone ever told him in hopes of validating his need to feel special. He's the textbook definition of a sheep in my mind.

"Hey, Locke... This button is important. Push it!"
"Okay."
"Hey, Locke... This button is stupid. Don't push it!"
"Okay."
"Hey, Locke... The island says you're special. Kill Boone."
"Okay."
"Hey, Locke. You can trust me, I'm just a hitchhiker in the rain with no motive at all to trap your friends."
"Okay."
"Hey, Locke. It's me, Daddy. Give me a kidney."
"Okay."
"Hey, Locke. Kill your daddy to prove you're special."
"Okay."
"Hey, Locke. Kate's got a plan to bring Miles to Ben [or Ben to Miles]. Let's thwart it [but not really 'cause I'm in on it]."
"Okay."
"Hey, Locke..."
[annnnnnd scene]

I hope I've made my point. ;) Locke hasn't lost it... He never had it to begin with. Dressing up like a hunter and telling everyone you're a hunter doesn't make you a hunter.

I have never viewed Locke as a leader, which is why when the polls of "Who is the better leader" pops up, Locke is never in contention. That does not mean that Locke isn't a smart man. He is. However, Locke's entire purpose is wrapped around the island's overall purpose. That's his mistress and his master. Anyone who wants to tag along on the road to the "Island Initiative" is welcomed, but Locke's loyalty is always to his purpose: the Island.

I still think Locke is getting signs and signals from "good" forces and "evil" forces and he doesn't know which is which. He thinks all the signs he gets are good and, as he has done so many times in the past, he is trusting what he thinks is "the island" (just as he trusted the pot farmer and Cooper in the past), when some signs might be from other sources.

I think this is truly his journey: to learn who (or what) he should put his faith in, instead of going all 120% on everything.

I agree. Locke is trying to interpret what he is being told (by Walt, the island), and sometimes he gets it right and sometimes he doesn't. It's unfortunate that some of fandom demand perfection from the characters. They ALL screw up and make poor decisions, and when they do, the forums go nuts. It happens. Locke does it. Jack does it. Sayid does it. Kate, Sawyer, etc.

Today was another reason why I choose team Jack over teams Locke. Locke has always been like this.

I like Jack's leading style WAY more then Locke's because if Jacob one day whispers in Lockes ear to kill you, Locke would never question it. HJe would just do it. H elives for the island and not the other survivors where Jack does.

There was no doubt in my mind that I would follow Team Jack. I still don't understand why Claire and Hurley are STILL staying when they see how things are going. Hurley is clearly afraid of Locke, so who is left for Hurley to hang with: Claire and Sawyer. So those are the only two people he is going to be close with for the rest of his life on the island? That's sad.

I couldn't help but notice the different reactions to Jack and Locke. Hurley is afraid of Locke, and Locke was yelling at Kate that Jack's democratic style won't be happening in New Othersville. Meanwhile, back at the beach, Jack is greeted by the Losties with smiles and hope.

Not to mention that Ben still knows exactly how to manipulate Locke. Seems most of the others can see thru Ben's games, but Locke falls for it every time. No wonder Ben stays with him.

Well, Ben certainly knows how to manipulate Locke, but at the same time, Ben does fear Locke's potential power. Locke just needs to harness what he is learning about the island, and if he succeeds, you won't see such a smug Ben in the future.

I think what you described was more of a Jack character trait. While I nearly agree with you on the Locke front, I think that Locke has his limits. He did not shoot Jack even though this entire freighter dilemma could have been avoided pre-satellite phone call. On the other hand, Sheppard lost control completely.

On the other hand, Locke dumped Boone's crumpled body and lied about how he was injured, clubbed Sayid over the head, shoved Mikhail into a sonic fence, manipulated Sawyer into murdering his father, and knifed Naomi in the back. Just saying.

Right now, I'm worried with where Locke's going (to the point of saying that I hate him). I'm hoping that all of that evens out somehow.

Right now, I'm worried with where Locke's going (to the point of saying that I hate him). I'm hoping that all of that evens out somehow.

Don't worry, I think things will work out for Locke. We still have 44 more episodes to go and that's a LOT of story left to tell.

What power?

The Sonic Fence can be circumvented with two props and a long arm arrangement, so I don't see he has anything at all.

A preparedness to exert property rights over his prisoners I suppose but, beyond that... *shrug*

Show me him deforesting the interior so people can't escape and I may agree with you.

Gack. I keep contributing the same stuff to a variety of threads, but here it is in a nutshell.

a. Everyone on "Team Locke" seems to have agreed that Ben is dangerous and plotting to kill them all. In fact, it appears that the only one who wants to keep him alive (albeit locked up) is Locke.
b. Everyone on Team Locke went to the barracks, they say, because they think the freighties are lying and dangerous

So it's agreed (not just Locke has determined, but it is agreed) that both Ben and Miles are dangerous. Kate took Miles out of his cell, shot the lock off Ben's cell, and put these two dangerous people together FOR ENTIRELY PERSONAL REASONS that would do absolutely nothing to benefit anyone but her.

So how is it that Locke was being dictatorial in banishing her, exactly? If I were Locke, I would have shoved her in a cell, too, for putting them all in danger completely randomly. I think he was being overly sentimental by letting her go back to the beach.

I guess they all could have voted on it...

I like "no more Mr. Nice Guy" Locke. Go get 'em, Tiger!

Locke's entire purpose is wrapped around the island's overall purpose. That's his mistress and his master. Anyone who wants to tag along on the road to the "Island Initiative" is welcomed, but Locke's loyalty is always to his purpose: the Island.Agreed.

It's unfortunate that some of fandom demand perfection from the characters. They ALL screw up and make poor decisions, and when they do, the forums go nuts. It happens. Locke does it. Jack does it. Sayid does it. Kate, Sawyer, etc.Agreed.

There was no doubt in my mind that I would follow Team JackIf I was privy to only what the Losties know, I would go with Locke. Reason? Locke and Ben saying the freighters are, in essence, bad. Not Penny's boat. I think getting away from ground zero of the freightie's arrival point would be prudent. If they were to start slaughtering Team Jack, there might be some advanced warning for Team Locke.

Knowing what I now do, I'm not sure. What happens to the other members of Team Jack? Of Team Locke? They both could be experiencing some terrible things. The crazed, drug-addicted Jack of TTLG doesn't provide me with a lot of optimism about Team Jack. Come to think of it, Sayid didn't look too happy in the future, either. Hurley (not an initial Team Jack member) jumped at the chance to be sent back to the psychiatric hospital. If joining Team Jack turns out to be the best thing, then I hate to see what happens to those Losties left behind.

On the other hand, Locke dumped Boone's crumpled body and lied about how he was injured, clubbed Sayid over the head, shoved Mikhail into a sonic fence, manipulated Sawyer into murdering his father, and knifed Naomi in the back. Just saying.

Um, how did he manipulate Sawyer into murdering his father? He told him from the outset that he was bringing him to the Black Rock to kill Ben. Given, it wasn't Ben, but bonus, it was the one man that Sawyer had intended to kill. He changed his name, kept his little-boy note in his pocket in preparation for the moment he would finally find the man who destroyed his family. He based his life on finding, confronting, and killing this man, and Locke delivered it to him. Sawyer made the decision to kill him on his own, and had actually brought that intention with him from outside the island before he even met Locke. When Sawyer told Locke he wasn't going to kill the man inside, he responded, "okay, James." That doesn't sound like much of a manipulation technique to me.
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So it's agreed (not just Locke has determined, but it is agreed) that both Ben and Miles are dangerous. Kate took Miles out of his cell, shot the lock off Ben's cell, and put these two dangerous people together FOR ENTIRELY PERSONAL REASONS that would do absolutely nothing to benefit anyone but her.

So how is it that Locke was being dictatorial in banishing her, exactly? If I were Locke, I would have shoved her in a cell, too, for putting them all in danger completely randomly. I think he was being overly sentimental by letting her go back to the beach.

That's exactly it. He didn't want her in his community because she lied to him, and used him. That's a good enough reason as any to tell her to scram. He made it clear that if he were a dictator he'd just shoot her, and be done with it, but he doesn't. He wants to be able to analyze his situation, keep volatile people separated, and keep people and the island protected from those he recognizes as intending to do harm to both.

On the other hand, Locke dumped Boone's crumpled body and lied about how he was injured, clubbed Sayid over the head, shoved Mikhail into a sonic fence, manipulated Sawyer into murdering his father, and knifed Naomi in the back. Just saying.

Boone - Okay I get it, Boone is good looking and everyone is still sore that this show wont turn into a network Chippindale's dance party. Boone respected John for good reason, ran his own self up into a plane, Locke told him to get out, it fell. He wanted to keep the hatch a secret, not Boones death. As sexy as his crumpled corpse was, not Locke's fault.

Sayid - Would have been an awesome show if Sayid was able to get help from the radio tower and everyone got rescued (insert Full House piano music). Locke could have knifed him from 50 yards and just been done with it but he has proven time and again that he will not stoop to pulling the trigger on our losties (ala Jack).

Mikhail - What a pleasant young man! Promising life cut short. Sob. I only wish Mikhail could have stayed alive longer to kill more people we care about.

Sawyer - I think you and I may have conflicting opinions on the meaning of "manipulated". If helping a man realize the driving force for his life and helping yourself in the process is manipulation, then I would return my copy of "My First Dictionary". Mutualism at its best.

Naiomi - The only trained soldier on the boat. Locke cut the beasts head off before it had a chance to attack. Owned. Knife-style.

When it came down to it, John wouldn't stoop to shooting Jack, Jack would. I cant think of a more even situation to compare just where each of these characters choose to draw the line. Sadly this is not the thread to remind everyone of all the great things that Locke has done on the island. I don't think I have the room for it anyways.

In regards to what someone said earlier about Locke killing the chicken, I don't think that Locke killed it. I got the impression that Locke was still so upset about what Ben had said to him, that he punched a wall or something. He seemed to have to think about it for a second before he told Kate that he killed a chicken. And it makes sense, right? It just highlighted the fact that Ben got to him because he really is lost at this point.

MTQuinn, you say everything I wanna say, only better. Kudos to you.

I will go this inch in the Mikhail situation: He did the right thing, but he should not have apologized afterward.

I will go these TWO inches in the Sawyer situation: He should have killed Cooper himself, but was not yet evolved enough--part of him was still looking for daddy's approval. But I certainly don't think getting Sawyer to do the job did Sawyer any harm at all. Probably resolved some lifelong issues... which is why it would have been better for Locke's "evolution" if he'd been man enough to do it at the time.

As of last night, he's officially man enough! Whoop!

Gack. I keep contributing the same stuff to a variety of threads, but here it is in a nutshell.

a. Everyone on "Team Locke" seems to have agreed that Ben is dangerous and plotting to kill them all. In fact, it appears that the only one who wants to keep him alive (albeit locked up) is Locke.
b. Everyone on Team Locke went to the barracks, they say, because they think the freighties are lying and dangerous

So it's agreed (not just Locke has determined, but it is agreed) that both Ben and Miles are dangerous. Kate took Miles out of his cell, shot the lock off Ben's cell, and put these two dangerous people together FOR ENTIRELY PERSONAL REASONS that would do absolutely nothing to benefit anyone but her.

So how is it that Locke was being dictatorial in banishing her, exactly? If I were Locke, I would have shoved her in a cell, too, for putting them all in danger completely randomly. I think he was being overly sentimental by letting her go back to the beach.

I agree with Locke's choice to banish Kate. He had ever right to do so after doing what she did. That's not the issue regarding Locke being a dictator. The dictator issue comes to light when Locke tells Hurley that he's the one calling the shots and Hurley better just accept it. Also, Kate DID go to Locke at first to ask to speak with Miles and Locke said no and told her not to expect a democracy like they had with Jack. It's those types of comments that have people discussing Locke's sudden dictatorship style.


If I was privy to only what the Losties know, I would go with Locke. Reason? Locke and Ben saying the freighters are, in essence, bad. Not Penny's boat. I think getting away from ground zero of the freightie's arrival point would be prudent. If they were to start slaughtering Team Jack, there might be some advanced warning for Team Locke.

Knowing what I now do, I'm not sure. What happens to the other members of Team Jack? Of Team Locke? They both could be experiencing some terrible things. The crazed, drug-addicted Jack of TTLG doesn't provide me with a lot of optimism about Team Jack. Come to think of it, Sayid didn't look too happy in the future, either. Hurley (not an initial Team Jack member) jumped at the chance to be sent back to the psychiatric hospital. If joining Team Jack turns out to be the best thing, then I hate to see what happens to those Losties left behind.

See, I don't look at it that way. I don't look at the FF or the "Not Penny's Boat." I look at it from a shipwrecked survivor's point of view and what I know and what I have witnessed from both of these men. Although I don't believe Locke to be an evil man, I would never put my trust or my life in his hands. His loyalty to the island dominates everything about him, and it clouds his judgement, which we are now seeing. I don't care about how Jack or Sayid or Hurley appear in the FF because I would still want to get off the island and then make my choices about staying or going back then to stay on the island and live - what life exactly? You would still have to deal with Ben who travels to and from the island, you have to deal with the Others at the Temple, Smokey, and the island's temper and powers in and of itself. I don't see that being a better life. Also, I have to ask myself why Charlie told Hurley "They need you." Has something terrible happened to those who remained? If so, then in the end, it was bad to leave and bad to stay.

Um, how did he manipulate Sawyer into murdering his father? He told him from the outset that he was bringing him to the Black Rock to kill Ben.

That right there answers your own question. He lied to manipulate Sawyer into going with him to kill someone else entirely.

Given, it wasn't Ben, but bonus, it was the one man that Sawyer had intended to kill. I don't see that as a positive. I've been waiting for Sawyer to turn away from the revenge and killing, not to move towards it. He murdered an innocent man before crashing on the island because of this need for revenge.

He changed his name, kept his little-boy note in his pocket in preparation for the moment he would finally find the man who destroyed his family. Yeah, but I've always had a problem with this side of Sawyer. How can he hate the man when Sawyer made a conscious decision to become exactly what Cooper was, and Sawyer did exactly the same things to other families?

He based his life on finding, confronting, and killing this man, and Locke delivered it to him. Sawyer made the decision to kill him on his own, and had actually brought that intention with him from outside the island before he even met Locke. When Sawyer told Locke he wasn't going to kill the man inside, he responded, "okay, James." That doesn't sound like much of a manipulation technique to me. I completely disagree. That's the brilliance of Locke's manipulation. His "Okay, James" was actually, "Sure, you will, James. As soon as you realize who I locked you in there with." If Locke wasn't trying to manipulate Sawyer into doing something Sawyer didn't want to do then why did Locke have to lock the door? When Sawyer found out who Cooper was, Sawyer still didn't do anything to harm him. Locke knew that if he locked Sawyer in there long enough, Cooper would push all of Sawyer's buttons, which he did, and Sawyer would kill him, which he did. That's the reason for Locke's "Thanks, James" after he opened the door and Cooper was dead in a heap at Sawyer's feet.

I will go this inch in the Mikhail situation: He did the right thing, but he should not have apologized afterward.

I will go these TWO inches in the Sawyer situation: He should have killed Cooper himself, but was not yet evolved enough--part of him was still looking for daddy's approval. But I certainly don't think getting Sawyer to do the job did Sawyer any harm at all. Probably resolved some lifelong issues... which is why it would have been better for Locke's "evolution" if he'd been man enough to do it at the time.

Okay THAT was perfect.
I do think it was a nice gesture on Locke's part to have Cooper gift wrapped for him. What do you give the man who has everything? Apparently this is the answer.

Who does Locke think he is, Ben? ;)

I never was a big Locke fan. Now least of all. Maybe he'll come to and realize that just because he's "special" doesn't necessarily make him supreme island ruler.

That said, TOQ is fantastic at portraying him, and I'd hate to see him leave the show for that.

Locke's problem is he cant see the jungle for the trees. Always looking for a deeper meaning when he should be just performing his role. Like pushing the button because "he was chosen" rather than thinking about the fact there's a really big magnetic thing behind the wall right next to the computer. "This is MY BUTTON! IM IMPORTANT!" No, it might not be because he's saving the world, but because he feels like he's super important now.

So as soon as he feels like his role as a button pusher just isn't as cracked up to be, he stops pushing it...screw saving the world, as long as he's not superman anymore. Yet, the button did serve a purpose, and when Charlie asked Eko why he wanted to keep pushing it, he threw the metal against the magnet to demonstrate the power behind that wall to show understanding that he knew what that computer was about.

It's almost like if Locke walked into a room where a lamp was standing next to a wall switch. He'd spend hours and hours trying to figure out what it the switch meant and what his purpose for turning it on was.

Looking for the Cabin shows that again, he doesn't know the rules. It was the first step down on his self-imposed totem pole. "WAIT, IM IMPORTANT DAMN IT! WHERE IS MY CABIN!" Hasnt Locke realized that waiting for directions is what this island is all about? It tells you what you need to know when you need to know it.

In this case he doesn't believe Kate when she tells him the only thing Miles talked to Ben about was him wanting to extort money from him. So now Miles, who is really just a opportunist has a grenade in his mouth because Locke thinks there is something deeper to this two-bit extortionist. And OMG! Kate knows more about whats going on than Lock now! How dare she!

But again, Locke is the fool. Perhaps he could have been the one to march Miles into talking to Ben to learn a little more. But he's too stupid to just ask Miles what he wanted.

Locke is a stupid douche-bag of a fool and I bet anything he will be the reason more people die on that Island. I am so hoping Hurley gets a chance to punch him soon. I so wanted Kate to hit him when he tried to "banish" her. What an idiot. Sorry, but I believe Locke's days are numbered. Sure, he might be right about the doom that will come as the result of what's on that freighter, but again, just like the button, he completely misunderstands what it all means because of his quest to feel special.

I love the scenes when Ben gets under his fingernails and causes him to throw things at the wall. I always go, "Ha Ha!' in Simpsons fashion.

Too bad there aren't 15 story buildings on the Island.

Locke's always been self serving.
I don't think Locke is being a dictator, he is just looking out for his interests because he knows people like Kate will try and double cross him.
The killing Naomi thing still disturbs me, but I reckon there's more to that than what we saw.

Boone - Okay I get it, Boone is good looking and everyone is still sore that this show wont turn into a network Chippindale's dance party. Boone respected John for good reason, ran his own self up into a plane, Locke told him to get out, it fell. He wanted to keep the hatch a secret, not Boones death. As sexy as his crumpled corpse was, not Locke's fault.

Uh, hate to break it to you, but Boone doesn't light my fire and I could care less if he looks like a Chippendale model or a science experiment.

I have addressed the Locke/Boone thing ad nauseaum, but I'll do it again. Locke did not try to kill Boone but Locke DID contribute to Boone's death. How? He gave the only doctor on the island the wrong information. Jack does not have an x-ray machine or MRI to see what was wrong with Boone. He had to rely on Locke's eye-witness account of what happened. Locke told Jack that Boone fell, and based on this information, Jack began to check Boone's body for "breaking" injuries. But Boone had more than broken bones because Boone had been crushed under a plane - a fact that Locke didn't share with Jack. By the time Boone regained consciousness and told Jack what happened, Jack had to quickly reassess Boone's injuries. At that point it was too late. Boone was bleeding to death. If Jack had known sooner, he would have been able to apply a tourniquet to Boone's leg sooner and prevent Boone's entire blood supply from pooling into his leg. Jack couldn't replace the blood loss fast enough. So, yes, Locke definitely contributed to Boone's death afterwards.

Sayid - Would have been an awesome show if Sayid was able to get help from the radio tower and everyone got rescued (insert Full House piano music). Locke could have knifed him from 50 yards and just been done with it but he has proven time and again that he will not stoop to pulling the trigger on our losties (ala Jack). What does this have to do with anything? Locke still knocked out Sayid and blamed Sawyer. Period.

Mikhail - What a pleasant young man! Promising life cut short. Sob. I only wish Mikhail could have stayed alive longer to kill more people we care about. Again, what's your point? My point, if you had read my initial post, was that Locke had lost control several times. It was not a discussion about the merits of the people he killed or wounded. You should reread the posts.

Sawyer - I think you and I may have conflicting opinions on the meaning of "manipulated". If helping a man realize the driving force for his life and helping yourself in the process is manipulation, then I would return my copy of "My First Dictionary". Mutualism at its best. I answered this above, and it was definitely manipulation. Yes, we do have different understandings of the meaning of the word.

Naiomi - The only trained soldier on the boat. Locke cut the beasts head off before it had a chance to attack. Owned. Knife-style. Again, you missed the point of the post. Whatever.

When it came down to it, John wouldn't stoop to shooting Jack, Jack would. I cant think of a more even situation to compare just where each of these characters choose to draw the line. Sadly this is not the thread to remind everyone of all the great things that Locke has done on the island. I don't think I have the room for it anyways.I didn't say I was pleased with Jack pulling the trigger. Far from it. I also have not forgotten some great things Locke has done on the island and what he has done for the other Losties. At the same time, Locke is changing and his devotion to the island is becoming more and more dominant and THAT is what we are discussing.

Gack. I keep contributing the same stuff to a variety of threads, but here it is in a nutshell.

a. Everyone on "Team Locke" seems to have agreed that Ben is dangerous and plotting to kill them all. In fact, it appears that the only one who wants to keep him alive (albeit locked up) is Locke.
b. Everyone on Team Locke went to the barracks, they say, because they think the freighties are lying and dangerous

So it's agreed (not just Locke has determined, but it is agreed) that both Ben and Miles are dangerous. Kate took Miles out of his cell, shot the lock off Ben's cell, and put these two dangerous people together FOR ENTIRELY PERSONAL REASONS that would do absolutely nothing to benefit anyone but her.

So how is it that Locke was being dictatorial in banishing her, exactly? If I were Locke, I would have shoved her in a cell, too, for putting them all in danger completely randomly. I think he was being overly sentimental by letting her go back to the beach.

I guess they all could have voted on it...

I like "no more Mr. Nice Guy" Locke. Go get 'em, Tiger!


Personally I'm not a Locke fan but I have to agree with you. I don't think that Locke is being a dictator. What he is doing is trying to protect the rest of the Losties.

I think people in general just want someone to tell them what to do. I've been a teacher for 18 years, and I think classrooms are little micro-societies. Most kids (and people) just want to do their job, be safe and get from one day to the next - they don't have great leadership qualities, they don't want to "save the world" - they just want to follow the status quo. That's the Losties - with the exception of a few. Sometimes you get a "Locke" who disrupts the whole class... and at that point, they kids start watching - will the teacher be able to deal with the "Locke" and get him under control? Or will he be able to "hold his own" with the teacher - at which point.. there are kids who start to follow and go with him.

My first year teaching we had a student like this... if there was some crisis or something going on - rather than looking to the teacher for what to do, they'd look at this boy and wait to see what he did... If he "behaved" so did they... if he chose to react.. so did they. The teacher was lucky enough to figure this out early on and focus on keeping him in control - HE controlled the class. Scary that a sixth grade kid has that sort of power over his peers, but that is what I see on the island.. They don't know what to do, they don't know how to survive - Jack finds water and shelter, Locke finds food and fights the bad guy... the rest just choose which one to follow.

After TBOTE I tried to get the board into a "Fantasy Lost" game where we all pick a team and stick with it for the season. Then we could discuss how we made out.

Well I picked Team Locke. The fact that he knew the boat people were bad and going to kill everyone gave me confidence in him. However, I'm starting to get a little suspect. I mean he's fooled easier than a bored stormtrooper guarding a tractor beam tower. Then he puts a grenade in Miles mouth -- not that there's anything wrong with that. But he just seems to lack focus right now.

Let's go, John! Get it together!

Locke's problem is he cant see the jungle for the trees...

My thoughts exactly.

As another commenter pointed out, Locke's obsessive priority is the Island. But he doesn't really know it. When in the episode he said "I'm responsible for the well-being of this island", I snickered, because he doesn't even know from where to begin. More than a "crazy Locke", what I saw in Eggtown is a "lonely Locke".

The interaction with Ben was brilliant. I had this clear image in my mind: it was as if Locke and Ben were two boys. Locke thinks he's in charge because he thinks he's stolen the Big Toy (the Magic Box, the Island) from Ben; Ben basically shows him that he (Locke) doesn't even know how to use that Toy.

I think Locke has fallen in love with the Island and he's behaving like every person truly-madly-deeply in love with another (whether the feeling is returned or not): he doesn't think straight. He loses focus. He is – as Ben so aptly put it – more lost than ever. And for the love of the island he's making one mistake after another with the people around him and closer to him. At the beginning of Season 4, where the 2 teams formed, Locke had the opportunity of leading a group of people, of guiding them, of showing to at least a part of the survivors that he was right from the start in "believing the island", for crying out loud. Instead he's proving incapable of leadership, he's insecure, moody, and very good at alienating those who should be friends with.

Ben, on the other hand – you can beat the crap out of him, starve him, lock him in a cell(ar)... He says a couple of sentences and you immediately know who is actually the leader.

Cheers
Rick

DarkTeach, nice post man! You made a statement, explained it and gave examples just like my junior high school teacher taught us! Very nice, solid and interesting.

Darkteach is a good student who writes above his grade level. He works well with others. Pleasure to have in class. A+.

Maxum, a breaking injury and crush injury have different mechanisms granted, but both can result in the same thing. We call it "compartment syndrome" and a closed fracture from a fall can still compartmentalize blood. It basically just balloons blood under fascia. Also, Jack probably would not have had the tools to deal with fat emboli from a femoral break either way. Boone was going to die due to lack of medical facilities. Jack has difficulty with losing. He lost. Locke is not a doctor, and we can play six degrees of separation all day to relate deaths to Locke.
Also, I respect your posts. I was just replying to your reply and answering that, not your discussions with everyone else. You, in reply to my statement about Locke's limits, listed off people that he hurt or killed. I was describing why these actions were not done out of anger but instead had a purpose. When it comes to killing one of your own, it's still a no go for Locke. Sawyer got what he wanted. John could have just told him the "Oh, by the way, Anthony Cooper materialized on the island yesterday in a magic box, he's the guy that conned your parents. I'm not crazy, come to dynamite-filled ship with me!" story and been flooded with so many nicknames his ears would have bled. What Locke did was assess the situation, and lured Sawyer to the boat where he could fulfill his dreams of revenge. What you call manipulation, I call an intelligent and effective way to get two people what they want, quickly.

To be honest, I didn't even know that YOU wrote the post. I was just reacting to some things that had been ticking me off about what other people have been harping on for a while. A lot of less intelligent posters than you. If I had known, I wouldn't have been such a dink when replying. Cool?

D
Maxum, a breaking injury and crush injury have different mechanisms granted, but both can result in the same thing. We call it "compartment syndrome" and a closed fracture from a fall can still compartmentalize blood. It basically just balloons blood under fascia. Also, Jack probably would not have had the tools to deal with fat emboli from a femoral break either way. Boone was going to die due to lack of medical facilities.

That's very true. My point was that Jack, being the Mr. Fix it that he is, was given false information. He would certainly have diagnosed Boone's injuries differently, and even though he ultimately couldn't save him, the fact that Lock lied about the plane to protect the hatch is unforgiveable in Jack's eyes. I can't say he's wrong.

Jack has difficulty with losing. He lost. Locke is not a doctor, and we can play six degrees of separation all day to relate deaths to Locke.

Agreed.

Also, I respect your posts. I was just replying to your reply and answering that, not your discussions with everyone else. You, in reply to my statement about Locke's limits, listed off people that he hurt or killed.

Actually, I was just listing some times when Locke lost it - just as Jack has also lost it. Both men are emotional and reactive - that was basically my point.

I was describing why these actions were not done out of anger but instead had a purpose. When it comes to killing one of your own, it's still a no go for Locke. Sawyer got what he wanted. John could have just told him the "Oh, by the way, Anthony Cooper materialized on the island yesterday in a magic box, he's the guy that conned your parents. I'm not crazy, come to dynamite-filled ship with me!" story and been flooded with so many nicknames his ears would have bled. What Locke did was assess the situation, and lured Sawyer to the boat where he could fulfill his dreams of revenge. What you call manipulation, I call an intelligent and effective way to get two people what they want, quickly.

I understand. However, like I said, my earlier posts were about loss of control and not about whether it was right or wrong.

To be honest, I didn't even know that YOU wrote the post. I was just reacting to some things that had been ticking me off about what other people have been harping on for a while. A lot of less intelligent posters than you. If I had known, I wouldn't have been such a dink when replying. Cool?

No problem. Thanks for explaining - much appreciated.

I don't think Locke is going crazy with his new power. He is simply doing anything and everything he can to accomplish his new job, "protecting the island".

No, he hasn't gone crazy with power. He went crazy a LONG time ago.

In my opinion, Locke's been a nutjob ever since he landed on that island. Knocking out Sayid, calling Boone "A Sacrifice The Island Demanded", getting obsessed with the hatch. He's always been a lunatic!!!

No, he hasn't gone crazy with power. He went crazy a LONG time ago.

In my opinion, Locke's been a nutjob ever since he landed on that island. Knocking out Sayid, calling Boone "A Sacrifice The Island Demanded", getting obsessed with the hatch. He's always been a lunatic!!!

Okay. It is the Island itself that is crazy, Locke is just dealing with it. I see it as he's swimming with the current when everyone else is trying to get the hell out of the river.

Well Kate tells him that he running a dictatorship Locke replies "If I was a dictator I would have shot you" then he banished Kate and puts a grenade in Miles' mouth...Hmm.. I would see my answer would be a yea.

Well Kate tells him that he running a dictatorship Locke replies "If I was a dictator I would have shot you" then he banished Kate.

That pissed me off!

Threatening and yelling at Kate is not acceptable. He can't do that! He's not her Dad or brother!

I swear, Locke will get it one of these days!:chair: What a facist thug!

Wait, he is lower than a thug.

I swear, Smokie has his # and so does Jack! I can't wait to see it!

I think Locke is a little crazy, but he is absolutely right when he says, the people on the freighter are a threat. This episode showed the deficiencies in both leaders. While Locke is a little bizzare in his behavior, to him it is absolutely justified to him. Take shoving the grenade in Miles' mouth, from an audience standpoint it was hard to think Miles deserved it from his behavior he's been an angry, arrogant SOB. Who thinks the losties are beneath him. So shoving a grenade in his mouth is a way of teaching him humility. Locke views him as the enemy and anything he does to him is justified. My question is, is the grenade a dud or active? Locke doesn't listen to the people below him and treats his word as law. And I may anger the Jack fans but to a certain degree Jack is the same way. The scene with Sun strikes me as insensitive on his part, given the myriad of concerns Sun has for her baby. Any valid points Locke has Jack won't listen to because of their personal conflict. I wonder if in TBOTE if anyone else had said what Locke said, if Hurley had said it if he would have listened. Both camps aren't 100% behind their leaders, Hurley has doubts, and Kate obviously does in Team Locke. And Sun doesn't exactly believe that the freighties mean rescue and Sayid obviously doesn't. And Jack's suspicion is being raised. I think for everyone to survive the two leaders are going to have to reconcile.

Kate couldn't be trusted and was messing around with two very dangerous individuals where any number of very bad things could have happened. Why? For her own, "personal" reasons. Locke was totally justified in what he did.

Kate couldn't be trusted and was messing around with two very dangerous individuals where any number of very bad things could have happened. Why? For her own, "personal" reasons. Locke was totally justified in what he did.

I don't think so!

Locke has no authority over Kate.

He is not in control and I don't see his personal little army of thugs to help him out!

Looks like he is one :censored: up individual with a :censored: up agenda and threatening the life of my favorite character just made him an enemy for life!

I think for everyone to survive the two leaders are going to have to reconcile.

I would love to see this actually happen, but it doesn't really look like anyone is thinking 'team' right now.

I don't think so!

Locke has no authority over Kate.

He is not in control and I don't see his personal little army of thugs to help him out!

Looks like he is one :censored: up individual with a :censored: up agenda and threatening the life of my favorite character just made him an enemy for life!Well, he does have authority over her for several reasons. He was chosen by the group to lead them to the barricks, he was given charge of Ben and the Island is directly communicating with him. There is more at stake than Kate Austin's free time. Kate's a manipulator! Just accept it! :)

EDIT: Where as Kate is just threatening the life of possibly everyone on the Island and then the World, if Ben was to happen to disappear, if Miles managed to get away from her etc.

There is more at stake than Kate Austin's free time. Kate's a manipulator! Just accept it! :)

Yeah, but Kate is fighiting for her rights against the man(Locke).

Fight for your rights!

I swear, I hope a bigger "kid" knocks Locke off his feet!

Unfortunately, any rival group is nonexistent.

Threatening and yelling at Kate is not acceptable. He can't do that! He's not her Dad or brother!

I swear, Locke will get it one of these days!:chair: What a facist thug!

Wait, he is lower than a thug.

I swear, Smokie has his # and so does Jack! I can't wait to see it!


Kate should have been the first one to taste grenade, and Locke has always been nicer to her than she deserves. ***mod edit

I would love to see this actually happen, but it doesn't really look like anyone is thinking 'team' right now.
I think part of what goes wrong to get the Oceanic 6 off the island and everyone else left behind is Jack and Locke's inability to get along with each other. Perhaps that's one of the reasons to Jack being a pill popping suicidal alcoholic in the future he realizes what he could have done differently.

Yeah, but Kate is fighiting for her rights against the man(Locke).

Fight for your rights!

I swear, I hope a bigger "kid" knocks Locke off his feet!

Unfortunately, any rival group is nonexistent.
How is it her right to trample over the group's wishes and desire to you know, not die?

Yeah, but Kate is fighiting for her rights against the man(Locke).

Fight for your rights!

Her right to put the entire group in danger so she can find out if Miles knows about her rap sheet?

Kate's individual rights do not supersede the right to safety of the entire group. Knowing that, and enforcing it might make Locke a communist, but it doesn't make him a fascist.

And it makes Kate a frigging brat, as per usual.

Yeah, but Kate is fighiting for her rights against the man(Locke).

Fight for your rights!

I swear, I hope a bigger "kid" knocks Locke off his feet!

Unfortunately, any rival group is nonexistent.

Locke didn't smash her face in, stick her in a bag, and drag her along to New Othertown with him, although he probably should have done step 1 and 2 and just tossed her over a cliff for all the help she's been. She went voluntarily, lied to and manipulated him, and people are calling Locke a fascist because he told her to leave. She should not be a part of what Locke is trying to do, because she's looking out first and foremost for her own personal ventures, screwing Locke over in the process. There's nothing wrong with sending her of to be big tuff independent she-Kate by her damn self. She's a danger to what Locke has going for himself, and couldn't have been nicer about letting her know that.

I hear Cuba has an opening...

Locke's problem is he cant see the jungle for the trees. Always looking for a deeper meaning when he should be just performing his role. Like pushing the button because "he was chosen" rather than thinking about the fact there's a really big magnetic thing behind the wall right next to the computer. "This is MY BUTTON! IM IMPORTANT!" No, it might not be because he's saving the world, but because he feels like he's super important now.

So as soon as he feels like his role as a button pusher just isn't as cracked up to be, he stops pushing it...screw saving the world, as long as he's not superman anymore. Yet, the button did serve a purpose, and when Charlie asked Eko why he wanted to keep pushing it, he threw the metal against the magnet to demonstrate the power behind that wall to show understanding that he knew what that computer was about.

It's almost like if Locke walked into a room where a lamp was standing next to a wall switch. He'd spend hours and hours trying to figure out what it the switch meant and what his purpose for turning it on was.

Looking for the Cabin shows that again, he doesn't know the rules. It was the first step down on his self-imposed totem pole. "WAIT, IM IMPORTANT DAMN IT! WHERE IS MY CABIN!" Hasnt Locke realized that waiting for directions is what this island is all about? It tells you what you need to know when you need to know it.

Excellent points. Remember when he told Ana he wants Ben out of HIS hatch and later when he decided it wasn't worth his time told Rose "It's not my button"? I think Locke is almost child-like, both in a positive way of curiosity, a certain degree of naive innocence and wide-eyed wondering, but mostly in all the negative ways: he's destructive, amoral and his primary objective is always about his needs. Now the Island is his so what happens if the Island decides it wants another sacrifice and Locke's in a foul mood because Ben keeps on playing him like a cheap banjo? He's simply not strong enough to deal with Ben and it's going to get him (and possibly a lot of other people) into a lot of trouble.

I've been thinking that both Hurley and Claire seem a little creeped out by I've Got The Conch Locke so maybe they defect to Team Jack and that's how Hurley and Aaron end up off the Island.

I hear Cuba has an opening...



Excellent points. Remember when he told Ana he wants Ben out of HIS hatch and later when he decided it wasn't worth his time told Rose "It's not my button"? I think Locke is almost child-like, both in a positive way of curiosity, a certain degree of naive innocence and wide-eyed wondering, but mostly in all the negative ways: he's destructive, amoral and his primary objective is always about his needs. Now the Island is his so what happens if the Island decides it wants another sacrifice and Locke's in a foul mood because Ben keeps on playing him like a cheap banjo? He's simply not strong enough to deal with Ben and it's going to get him (and possibly a lot of other people) into a lot of trouble.

I've been thinking that both Hurley and Claire seem a little creeped out by I've Got The Conch Locke so maybe they defect to Team Jack and that's how Hurley and Aaron end up off the Island.I think you're right about certain qualities of Locke- i.e. his continuous ability to be "suckered" into things out of a need to believe.
The thing you're missing out on, however, is the fact that Locke has been chosen by the Island. No-one else can say the same. He didn't ask for that responsibility but he was given it anyway. He's constantly fighting against his negativity and past but he is giving himself, absolutely to the cause. Not out of a need for self-edification or wanting to feel like Superman but to fulfill all of the potential, he and others obviously saw in him that every moment in his past life did its best to beat out of him. Sure he's turned towards questionable methods but he is anything but selfish.
If you're asked to lead, you lead. It's interesting that Kate was a character originally shown as a leader but was too wrapped up in her own trivial pursuits to get past her own ego.

The scene in which Kate asks Locke to see Miles is the epitome of how the characters are separated. Locke is thinking of nothing but the group, Kate is thinking of nothing but herself.

I think Locke is almost child-like, both in a positive way of curiosity, a certain degree of naive innocence and wide-eyed wondering, but mostly in all the negative ways: he's destructive, amoral and his primary objective is always about his needs.

I gotta disagree with the amoral part. He's got a code of ethics that is starting to adhere to that of a military engagement. If anything, he's stuck too much to a moral code (thou shalt not kill, eg) that doesn't suit the situation. I agree with the rest of the assessment, pretty much.

INow the Island is his so what happens if the Island decides it wants another sacrifice and Locke's in a foul mood because Ben keeps on playing him like a cheap banjo? He's simply not strong enough to deal with Ben and it's going to get him (and possibly a lot of other people) into a lot of trouble.

I do want to point out that Locke's idea that Boone was the sacrifice the island demanded was actually confirmed by Dead Boone. He did not kill Boone or intentionally bring the island a sacrifice. He was careless in the situation, but Boone acted of his own free will and Locke's regret was pretty palpable.

Otherwise though, Locke's downfall is too much of a reliance on the opinion and ideas of others. I hear a lot of people complaining about how weak he is, and then complaining that he's power mad. He's going to have to take on a lot more power to defeat his very real weaknesses, and I'm sure the criticism will grow apace. The question is, will be be able to employ wisdom (which he does seem to possess, as was apparent in his initial interactions with Charlie and Walt) to temper his will. If not, I agree, tragedy is probably inevitable...Boo. Hope not.

Remember when he told Ana he wants Ben out of HIS hatch and later when he decided it wasn't worth his time told Rose "It's not my button"? I think Locke is almost child-like, both in a positive way of curiosity, a certain degree of naive innocence and wide-eyed wondering, but mostly in all the negative ways: he's destructive, amoral and his primary objective is always about his needs.

I agree. That's one of the biggest problems with anyone following or believing in Locke. He does put his needs before everyone else, and HIS needs is all about the island. The best and most recent example was the very first episode of this season. He tells his eleven crew that he is going to lead them to Othersville until he can decide what to do (whatever). However, on the trek to Othersville, Locke wants to make a side trip to the cabin. Why? Because HE has to stop at the cabin for some reason. Again, his purpose is not to get everyone to Othersville, initially. First, he must attend to his island.

Now the Island is his so what happens if the Island decides it wants another sacrifice and Locke's in a foul mood because Ben keeps on playing him like a cheap banjo? He's simply not strong enough to deal with Ben and it's going to get him (and possibly a lot of other people) into a lot of trouble.

If Ben had shot me and left me in the Dharma pit of Death, I sure as hell would not be setting him up as a house guest. Locke KNOWS what Ben is doing, and he even admits he knows he's doing it, but he lets him do it anyway? I'm just not seeing smart on the horizon. Even Sawyer knows Ben has their number, and I can't understand Sawyer staying either. :undecide:

I've been thinking that both Hurley and Claire seem a little creeped out by I've Got The Conch Locke so maybe they defect to Team Jack and that's how Hurley and Aaron end up off the Island.

Frankly, their reasons for going with Team Locke were not good ones. "Not Penny's Boat" is a warning to weary of the Freighters. It doesn't mean DON'T try to leave the island and go live in Othersville. I certainly don't see Charlie making that decision, at least not without investigating the Freighters, which is exactly what Team Jack is doing now.

The thing you're missing out on, however, is the fact that Locke has been chosen by the Island.

I'm a skeptic so until I'm given more proof that the Island is a magic version of Disneyland and this wonderful benevolent force Locke thinks it is, I'm going to hold off judgement on that. Didn't the Island repeatedly heal Mikhail as well? Wasn't he a bad guy? Personally, I don't think there's only one set of forces at work on the Island and that Locke is particularly susceptible to being used to do good as much as he can be used to do evil.

No-one else can say the same.

Well, it depends on how soon we're going to see ghost!Christian again on the actual show, but the only difference is, Jack doesn't know he's got "work" to do yet. He knows it in his TTLG future, but not yet.

Not out of a need for self-edification or wanting to feel like Superman but to fulfill all of the potential, he and others obviously saw in him

I think that's a beautiful thing to believe in, but I'm not buying it, not as long as he's as callous with people's lives as he is.

If you're asked to lead

You know, I don't actually have a problem with that, I supported Locke when he told Hurley he's in charge because yes, they followed him and put their lives in his hands. I think it applies to everyone who's always complaining about Jack and Locke (not that they can't use some criticism and being shown the error of their ways... come to think of it, Locke could really use what Jack has in Sayid)... Put up or shut up! He's got the conch. What he's doing with it and how shaky his hands are every time Ben is around is the real problem.

I agree. That's one of the biggest problems with anyone following or believing in Locke. He does put his needs before everyone else, and HIS needs is all about the island. The best and most recent example was the very first episode of this season. He tells his eleven crew that he is going to lead them to Othersville until he can decide what to do (whatever). However, on the trek to Othersville, Locke wants to make a side trip to the cabin. Why? Because HE has to stop at the cabin for some reason. Again, his purpose is not to get everyone to Othersville, initially. First, he must attend to his island.Ah but the group were given the choice to follow Locke and everything that this may entail. To believe in Locke, is to believe in him completely. I think they probably know this. Locke's responsibility is to follow what he feels is best for the group because that is why the people chose him over Jack.



If Ben had shot me and left me in the Dharma pit of Death, I sure as hell would not be setting him up as a house guest. Locke KNOWS what Ben is doing, and he even admits he knows he's doing it, but he lets him do it anyway? I'm just not seeing smart on the horizon. Even Sawyer knows Ben has their number, and I can't understand Sawyer staying either. :undecide:How is killing him the answer? Locke has to answer to something more powerful than Ben. He is showing Ben mercy when Ben did not show Locke any.



Frankly, their reasons for going with Team Locke were not good ones. "Not Penny's Boat" is a warning to weary of the Freighters. It doesn't mean DON'T try to leave the island and go live in Othersville. I certainly don't see Charlie making that decision, at least not without investigating the Freighters, which is exactly what Team Jack is doing now.Again, he is gathering information about them. Sayid has been sent off to get the direct feed on the shape of things. He has Miles tied up and is doing his best to get the truth out of him. How is that more effective than giving the freighter people every chance to do what they came to do? "Not Penny's Boat" is enough to go, considering how they came to gain the survivors trust in the first place.
Also tie in everything that has happened with Dharma/Hanso etc.
Weird stuff has gone down. Expect anything. Don't trust anyone.

The thing you're missing out on, however, is the fact that Locke has been chosen by the Island. No-one else can say the same.

Well, in all truth, Hurley may also have been "chosen." We'll have to wait and see.

To all: Please stick to the topic of the thread and don't clog up the thread with constant congratulations to everyone you agree with. It's unnecessary and doesn't advance anyone's arguments.

Jack - John, democracy - dictatorship, broaden your minds! : what about autocracy, oligarchy, republics?

There's a list of forms of government to the right of this page below, have a read and perhaps reassess Locke's leadership (what I wouldn't give for a squiz at his guest list).

At least then you can call him a dictator from a position outside of ignorance of other terms (or declare he's wrong - he is.) : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ochlocracy

I'll bring you in at 'Angry Mob' - because I like the Kaiser Chiefs, and it's MY post, so I can do as I like. (I don't really have to wink at this point do I?)

I do want to point out that Locke's idea that Boone was the sacrifice the island demanded was actually confirmed by Dead Boone. He did not kill Boone or intentionally bring the island a sacrifice. He was careless in the situation, but Boone acted of his own free will and Locke's regret was pretty palpable.

I absolutely agree that Boone acted of his own free will, but I think Locke saying that Boone was a sacrifice the island demanded was more the result of him trying to add meaning to Boone's death, so it wasn't just an unfortunate accident. He wanted to believe that the island was showing him something, and didn't want Boone's death to be in vain. When Boone comes back to him during his vision quest, I wasn't so sure that he was confirming this affirmation, as much as just repeating to Locke what he had said earlier.

Otherwise though, Locke's downfall is too much of a reliance on the opinion and ideas of others.

Absolutely.

He is making his own government and playing by his own rules....banishes who he wants...

Dont tell him what to do!

What kind of government does he think he will have? Or will he abide by the laws and obligations of the group running the island keeping it hidden?

At this rate Locke will chase everyone away in no time and soon be crying underneath a palm frond in the jungle...

I can't wait for a Locke flashback; he's due, we need to understand his motivations/guidance. I really think Eggtown was supposed to trick us, the way they started off with Locke's eye, only to switch to Kate.

Ah but the group were given the choice to follow Locke and everything that this may entail. To believe in Locke, is to believe in him completely.

1. That's just scary. I think it's about personality and how averse I am to guru figures. :smile:

2. Hurley and Claire did not follow Locke, they followed Charlie. They certainly didn't follow because Claire is dying to raise her baby in patched up clothes in the jungle forever and ever and stay on the Island the way Locke dreams of.

Danielle is on Team Danielle and she told Jack she's not leaving long before Locke showed up to fillet Naomi. Karl and Alex were born on the Island, where are they gonna go? So that leaves Sawyer and a bunch of redshirts and we know Sawyer doesn't believe in Locke, completely and otherwise.

Believe completely does not mean you get to be a sheep, nor does it mean Locke gets to barge into your room every time Ben pisses him off. Details like that were put in there for a reason and the reason is to show us how he's cracking and the effect Ben has on Locke. Again.

I'm a skeptic so until I'm given more proof that the Island is a magic version of Disneyland and this wonderful benevolent force Locke thinks it is, I'm going to hold off judgement on that. Didn't the Island repeatedly heal Mikhail as well? Wasn't he a bad guy? Personally, I don't think there's only one set of forces at work on the Island and that Locke is particularly susceptible to being used to do good as much as he can be used to do evil. I wasn't necessarily talking about the healing of Locke, as you say others have experienced that. I don't think Mikhail was bad, exactly.
He believed completely that his mission was of the utmost importance. He wasn't duplicitous and deceitful in the same way that Ben was. Yeah, there's a fine line here, obviously. I was accepting certain themes in the show as being representative of the whole, perhaps they're not. Locke is Lost's Agent Cooper... so....

I think that's a beautiful thing to believe in, but I'm not buying it, not as long as he's as callous with people's lives as he is.Sometimes it's realistic to accept casualties in times of great danger. Locke has rarely landed on the side of being truly callous, for the simple reason that it has never been without severe motivation outside of his own life and his own needs. Kate, now that's another matter.



You know, I don't actually have a problem with that, I supported Locke when he told Hurley he's in charge because yes, they followed him and put their lives in his hands. I think it applies to everyone who's always complaining about Jack and Locke (not that they can't use some criticism and being shown the error of their ways... come to think of it, Locke could really use what Jack has in Sayid)... Put up or shut up! He's got the conch. What he's doing with it and how shaky his hands are every time Ben is around is the real problem.The only person Ben seems to fear is Locke. So I think that says more about his abilities than his hesitation to kill him does.

Jack - John, democracy - dictatorship, broaden your minds! : what about autocracy, oligarchy, republics?

There's a list of forms of government to the right of this page below, have a read and perhaps reassess Locke's leadership (what I wouldn't give for a squiz at his guest list).

At least then you can call him a dictator from a position outside of ignorance of other terms (or declare he's wrong - he is.) : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ochlocracy

I'll bring you in at 'Angry Mob' - because I like the Kaiser Chiefs, and it's MY post, so I can do as I like. (I don't really have to wink at this point do I?)

***Mod edited***

Nice call on that one! People seem to like using the term fascist a lot. Ochlocrat doesn't have that same marketability no matter how much more accurate it is.

1. That's just scary. I think it's about personality and how averse I am to guru figures. :smile:

2. Hurley and Claire did not follow Locke, they followed Charlie. They certainly didn't follow because Claire is dying to raise her baby in patched up clothes in the jungle forever and ever and stay on the Island the way Locke dreams of.

Danielle is on Team Danielle and she told Jack she's not leaving long before Locke showed up to fillet Naomi. Karl and Alex were born on the Island, where are they gonna go? So that leaves Sawyer and a bunch of redshirts and we know Sawyer doesn't believe in Locke, completely and otherwise.

Believe completely does not mean you get to be a sheep, nor does it mean Locke gets to barge into your room every time Ben pisses him off. Details like that were put in there for a reason and the reason is to show us how he's cracking and the effect Ben has on Locke. Again.My point is that they knew what they were in for. If they had a problem with it to the extent that Kate did, then they are free to leave.
Obviously, they all have their own motivations for following Locke but they followed under his leadership nonetheless.

Ah but the group were given the choice to follow Locke and everything that this may entail. To believe in Locke, is to believe in him completely. I think they probably know this. Locke's responsibility is to follow what he feels is best for the group because that is why the people chose him over Jack.

That wasn't the point of my post. The point is that Locke is always putting the island first, and in that example, he was putting the island first again. The people who followed Locke were not following him because he's this all knowing mystic. They were following him because they believed that Locke was taking them to a safer place. Specifically, Locke told them he was taking them to Othersville where they would have the comforts they needed, and then decide from there. Never once did he mention a cabin. The issue with Locke is his hidden agendas, and I don't think Claire, with the responsibility of a baby, is even remotely interested in the cabin, Jacob, or Smokey.

How is killing him the answer? Locke has to answer to something more powerful than Ben. He is showing Ben mercy when Ben did not show Locke any. And yet Locke was ready to blow his head moments later in the same episode. That's my problem with Locke. His actions are erratic. First he tells Sawyer not to kill Ben in front of his daughter, and then moments later Locke is cocking the gun and ready to do just that.

Again, he is gathering information about them. Sayid has been sent off to get the direct feed on the shape of things. Locke had nothing to do with Sayid's actions. Sayid and Jack are working together on that one, and I agree with that tactic.

He has Miles tied up and is doing his best to get the truth out of him. How is that more effective than giving the freighter people every chance to do what they came to do? Miles won't tell anything, just as Ben has said nothing. How can you run and hide from an enemy you know nothing about? Jack and Sayid are doing the right thing, imo. Even if the freighters are a risk, it's better to gather intel than to know nothing. How does sitting in Othersville make you less vulnerable? In fact, why does Locke keep Miles if he doesn't want to draw the freighters to him? If you're trying to hide then hide. Locke's actions confuse me.

"Not Penny's Boat" is enough to go, considering how they came to gain the survivors trust in the first place. I don't think so. It tells them nothing except that it's not Penny's boat and that these people aren't who they say they are. It's not going to stop the boat from coming. When a threat arrives, you deal with it. You don't hide from it. The Losties tried hiding from the Others for three seasons, and ultimately, they had to fight.

Also tie in everything that has happened with Dharma/Hanso etc.
Weird stuff has gone down. Expect anything. Don't trust anyone.Very true, and I don't think ANY of the Losties trust anyone. Team Locke doesn't trust them and neither does Team Jack. Their suspicions are the same. It's their tactics of dealing with the threat that are different.

However, on the trek to Othersville, Locke wants to make a side trip to the cabin. Why? Because HE has to stop at the cabin for some reason. Again, his purpose is not to get everyone to Othersville, initially. First, he must attend to his island.

He's looking to the island to give him direction and help him save the people that have put their faith in him. He's not attending to the island like a garden of sweetpeas, he respects it as a source of knowledge, and wants to learn from it.


Frankly, their reasons for going with Team Locke were not good ones. "Not Penny's Boat" is a warning to weary of the Freighters. It doesn't mean DON'T try to leave the island and go live in Othersville. I certainly don't see Charlie making that decision, at least not without investigating the Freighters, which is exactly what Team Jack is doing now.

Team Jack is taking the freighters' arrival as a direct link with rescue. They're not really investigating, they're just interested in getting lifted off and onto the freightor whatever the cost. Team Locke, on the other hand is not settling in forever in New Othertown, but going to process everything that's going on, and avoid the oncoming danger that is part and parcel with the freightors getting to the island. Locke knows they're liars, and he knows that they are not there to rescue them, something Team Jack has so blindly accepted. He's avoiding danger and affording himself (and those that go with him) time to think, try and understand what's going on, and hopefully get better acquainted with their options to think through logically. Locke isn't condemning everyone to the island forever, he's just making sure he stays away from a group of people coming under the false pretenses of rescue.

That wasn't the point of my post. The point is that Locke is always putting the island first, and in that example, he was putting the island first again. The people who followed Locke were not following him because he's this all knowing mystic. They were following him because they believed that Locke was taking them to a safer place. Specifically, Locke told them he was taking them to Othersville where they would have the comforts they needed, and then decide from there. Never once did he mention a cabin. The issue with Locke is his hidden agendas, and I don't think Claire, with the responsibility of a baby, is even remotely interested in the cabin, Jacob, or Smokey.

Its a slight daytime detour to the cabin. It's like if you go on a road trip with your friend and he's the one driving you suck it up and GO to that damn popsicle stick museum because he is the one with the car. Plus I for got that smokey loves babies. Claire should start caring about that monster before it splatters Aaron against a tree like a water balloon.

And yet Locke was ready to blow his head moments later in the same episode. That's my problem with Locke. His actions are erratic. First he tells Sawyer not to kill Ben in front of his daughter, and then moments later Locke is cocking the gun and ready to do just that.I feel that Locke was just using the momentum of fear that Sawyer created to scare some answers out of Ben. No real intentions to shoot.

Miles won't tell anything, just as Ben has said nothing. How can you run and hide from an enemy you know nothing about? Jack and Sayid are doing the right thing, imo. Even if the freighters are a risk, it's better to gather intel than to know nothing. How does sitting in Othersville make you less vulnerable? In fact, why does Locke keep Miles if he doesn't want to draw the freighters to him? If you're trying to hide then hide. Locke's actions confuse me.
Jacks idea of gathering intel seems to be running face first at it. Running towards armed members of the freight crew got Kate and himself busted hard. Sayid, who is on team Sayid actually has some tact and was able to pull him out of that mess he made. Keeping Miles means Miles is a bargaining chip. Letting Miles go means, more educated enemies and now no Miles to blow up. Plus Jack already knew the location of Locke's team.

I like these discussions.:)

A lot of people have seen visions on the Island. Most of them used those visions to help pull them through different situations. So Locke isnt the only person this Island has reached out to.

The Cabin also seemed to be inviting Hurley in....and you know that's going to make Locke extremely jealous...if it hasn't already. Just like how jealous he got when he learned Kate got some information before he did.

is the fact that Locke has been chosen by the Island.

That wasn't the point of my post. The point is that Locke is always putting the island first, and in that example, he was putting the island first again. The people who followed Locke were not following him because he's this all knowing mystic. They were following him because they believed that Locke was taking them to a safer place. Specifically, Locke told them he was taking them to Othersville where they would have the comforts they needed, and then decide from there. Never once did he mention a cabin. The issue with Locke is his hidden agendas, and I don't think Claire, with the responsibility of a baby, is even remotely interested in the cabin, Jacob, or Smokey. Locke has been shown (as has anyone who has witness what can happen there) that to put the Island first, is to put the people on it first.
They are one and the same to him.

And yet Locke was ready to blow his head moments later in the same episode. That's my problem with Locke. His actions are erratic. First he tells Sawyer not to kill Ben in front of his daughter, and then moments later Locke is cocking the gun and ready to do just that. The point is that he was willing to spare his life at that moment. When Ben again trampled on this by trying to murder the one link (and bargaining chip) they had, sparing his life DIRECTLY conflicted with the "greater good".
He still spared him though, even if it was out a calculated risk to gain something from him. Ben wouldn't have spared him, in that situation.

Locke had nothing to do with Sayid's actions. Sayid and Jack are working together on that one, and I agree with that tactic.Locke aided Sayid and gave him Charlotte. We do not know what was said between them. Sayid could just as much be working with Locke, as he is Jack.

Miles won't tell anything, just as Ben has said nothing. How can you run and hide from an enemy you know nothing about? Jack and Sayid are doing the right thing, imo. Even if the freighters are a risk, it's better to gather intel than to know nothing. How does sitting in Othersville make you less vulnerable? In fact, why does Locke keep Miles if he doesn't want to draw the freighters to him? If you're trying to hide then hide. Locke's actions confuse me.Are you telling me that with a (possibly) live grenade in his mouth that he won't be persuaded to talk about a group who have HIRED him. He has no idealogical or moral connection to what they're doing as he has said many times. He was willing to give Ben up for, what must be, more money than he is being paid. Locke worked with Sayid (and Jack as an extension) to the point where it was profitable for his goals and had minimal risk. He traded up.
This means he can stall for time AND gain information. It's in Ben's interest to stop the people on the boat.

I don't think so. It tells them nothing except that it's not Penny's boat and that these people aren't who they say they are. It's not going to stop the boat from coming. When a threat arrives, you deal with it. You don't hide from it. The Losties tried hiding from the Others for three seasons, and ultimately, they had to fight. But why were they able to win? If they had fought the Others in Season 1, do you think they would have stood a chance?

Very true, and I don't think ANY of the Losties trust anyone. Team Locke doesn't trust them and neither does Team Jack. Their suspicions are the same. It's their tactics of dealing with the threat that are different.Locke's is more measured and sensible, all things considered. Jack is taking a risk and is showing his hand too early.
His desire to escape is what is driving his actions, sure he is not doing it flippantly but it is still overriding the danger that these people present.

Ha! 68% think Locke is at least somewhat insane. Interesting. :biggrin:

Jack is taking a risk and is showing his hand too early.
His desire to escape is what is driving his actions, sure he is not doing it flippantly but it is still overriding the danger that these people present.
You summed up what I was thinking about Jack's actions, his desire for rescue is clouding his judgement. But I don't think Locke's is any more sensible. Of the losties I've seen react to it, Sayid's was the best, he measured the evidence and it toldt him the freighties were lying. Jack began to have suspicions in Confirmed Dead and I think it was a mistake to bring the two freighties back to their camp, why not just stay in the valley. But Jack is beginning to get more suspicious. Something is going to happen that convinces all of the losties that the freighties are bad, bad news. It's just a question of when, not if.

You summed up what I was thinking about Jack's actions, his desire for rescue is clouding his judgement. But I don't think Locke's is any more sensible. Of the losties I've seen react to it, Sayid's was the best, he measured the evidence and it toldt him the freighties were lying. Jack began to have suspicions in Confirmed Dead and I think it was a mistake to bring the two freighties back to their camp, why not just stay in the valley. But Jack is beginning to get more suspicious. Something is going to happen that convinces all of the losties that the freighties are bad, bad news. It's just a question of when, not if.Oh yeah! If we were talking individuals here, Sayid has been the most prudent, for sure. Just speaking of the two groups though, Locke's actions seemed far more measured.

Completely. I recall someone mentioning that Jack's decision to face the Freightors straightaway would allow him to get all the information he needed on them, decide if they were a threat, then he could just saunter back unscathed, as if the island had embraced the Geneva convention. Locke is easily the more cautious of the two right now. Sayid once again finds a happy medium.

Oh yeah! If we were talking individuals here, Sayid has been the most prudent, for sure. Just speaking of the two groups though, Locke's actions seemed far more measured.
Well on the island Sayid's actions were prudent, but I don't know how wise it was to go to a freighter full of people he feels are a threat, an environment they control and if the freighties do have evil intentions(I think they do) the freighties could kill them at any moment. But Sayid is a smart guy. His actions lead to three of the freighties being stranded on the island and at the mercy of the losties, so if he is brought to physical harm he can threaten the freighties lives. And no, Daniel and Charlotte aren't technically prisoners but the losties could do anything to them.

Completely. I recall someone mentioning that Jack's decision to face the Freightors straightaway would allow him to get all the information he needed on them, decide if they were a threat, then he could just saunter back unscathed, as if the island had embraced the Geneva convention. Locke is easily the more cautious of the two right now. Sayid once again finds a happy medium.Sayid is a survivor. I'm constantly amazed at how the character hasn't been killed off yet. He seemed a sure bet for a time. Always one of the most developed and interesting individuals on Lost.
When he met Danielle for the first time was amazing.

Even if Locke was considered as a Dictator, that wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing considering their situation. They need to be focused on one goal now, if they have any hope of success. You can't have people running around making up their own rules.
There was a lot of talk of how his leadership skills were questionable well surely letting Kate stay in the barracks when she had shown a clear disregard for the safety of all of the people staying there, would have been the crushing blow?
He needed to take a stand and make an example of her.
100%
Well on the island Sayid's actions were prudent, but I don't know how wise it was to go to a freighter full of people he feels are a threat, an environment they control and if the freighties do have evil intentions(I think they do) the freighties could kill them at any moment. But Sayid is a smart guy. His actions lead to three of the freighties being stranded on the island and at the mercy of the losties, so if he is brought to physical harm he can threaten the freighties lives. And no, Daniel and Charlotte aren't technically prisoners but the losties could do anything to them.Sayid probably felt that aligning with either group to any great extent would do nothing for him. This way he is very much in the middle ground. If the freighter people aren't there to do harm then he won't be so involved with any problems they may have with the people on the Island.

I hear Cuba has an opening...



Excellent points. Remember when he told Ana he wants Ben out of HIS hatch and later when he decided it wasn't worth his time told Rose "It's not my button"? I think Locke is almost child-like, both in a positive way of curiosity, a certain degree of naive innocence and wide-eyed wondering, but mostly in all the negative ways: he's destructive, amoral and his primary objective is always about his needs. Now the Island is his so what happens if the Island decides it wants another sacrifice and Locke's in a foul mood because Ben keeps on playing him like a cheap banjo? He's simply not strong enough to deal with Ben and it's going to get him (and possibly a lot of other people) into a lot of trouble.

I've been thinking that both Hurley and Claire seem a little creeped out by I've Got The Conch Locke so maybe they defect to Team Jack and that's how Hurley and Aaron end up off the Island.

Funny you should mention Locke's childlike qualities. I was just thinking about how Mr. Eko threw him out of "his" hatch and he went off into to the woods crying like a baby. Whenever I think of Locke, that image comes into my mind. Someone took "his" hatch away from him and even though he doesn't want to play with it anymore (push the buttons), he still wants it back.

Your post makes me think that perhaps this childish behavior is a part of Locke's character and not just an isolated event.

By the way, your avatar is hilarious.

People seem to be forgetting that the Losties don't know anything about Locke's mystic island experiences, so, to say that they know that by following Locke they are buying into all his Faith tendencies is absolutely wrong.

From the very beginning Locke has been shown to be a character that NEEDS to feel special, the island makes him feel special, and he does what the island tells him to do. I think, and said many times, that the island has good and evil forces and Locke doesn't know which is which. He has been manipulated by both and will continue to be manipulated by both forces, just as he was manipulated by Cooper, and pot farmer guy. And just as much as he's being manipulated by Ben at every single turn.

Truth is Locke doesn't know how to be a leader and he's made many rash decisions since he got to be one, some of those decisions will prove to not be very smart ones.

He said he had a lot of explaining to do, so, start explaining Mr. Locke. If I were on his team I'd be antsy already.

People seem to be forgetting that the Losties don't know anything about Locke's mystic island experiences, so, to say that they know that by following Locke they are buying into all his Faith tendencies is absolutely wrong.

From the very beginning Locke has been shown to be a character that NEEDS to feel special, the island makes him feel special, and he does what the island tells him to do. I think, and said many times, that the island has good and evil forces and Locke doesn't know which is which. He has been manipulated by both and will continue to be manipulated by both forces, just as he was manipulated by Cooper, and pot farmer guy. And just as much as he's being manipulated by Ben at every single turn.

Truth is Locke doesn't know how to be a leader and he's made many rash decisions since he got to be one, some of those decisions will prove to not be very smart ones.

He said he had a lot of explaining to do, so, start explaining Mr. Locke. If I were on his team I'd be antsy already.
I agree with much of what you said, and Locke's behavior does go to the irrational sometimes. But on the other side of that Jack hasn't really explained why his team should trust the freighties as rescuers beyond saying "Locke is crazy" and "Locke doesn't know what he's doing." Sayid seems to be the only one with a reasoned stance regarding the freighties.

I think whether or not Locke has gone over the top depends on whether or not the grenade he put in miles' mouth was live.

Also I think Kate got what she deserved, she flips sides constantly and if I were on locke's team I'd want her banished too. Though I'd be really interested in seeing how he'd deal with Kate she refused to leave.

Locke is no more a dictator than Abraham Lincoln was when he suspended the writ of habeus corpus.

This John Locke is showing some similarities now to John Locke the political philosopher. Chapter 14 of The Second Treatise of Government deals with "executive prerogative."

In the philosopher Locke's commonwealth, the elected Parliament makes law, the king executes it. But sometimes the king is forced to go outside the law and ignore the people. This going outside the law and ignoring the people is still an extension of popular sovereignty. Thus, if the followers of the Terry O'Quinn Locke vote to either kill Ben and Miles or to let them live, he has the discretion, as leader, to go against their will for the sake of the public good. Democracy is not supposed to be suicide. His followers are not sheep, they let him lead them in this way because they trust that he knows what he is doing. They have given their consent to his prerogative simply by going with him. Based on Lockeanism, America's constitution has "prerogative" built into the powers of the executive, which was Lincoln's argument against his critics. Also in Lockeanism there is the federative power of treaty-making -- making deals with others -- which is given directly to the king (or president), not parliament (or Congress).

The political philosophy of Locke follows from Thomas Hobbes, who thought that governments derive from fear -- for mutual protection from "the bad guys" we create governments to protect us from them. For Hobbes, there are so many bad guys out there that we can never have democratic legislatures. For Locke, the bad guys are fewer in number, which means that we can still cooperate with each other through legislatures running society most of the time, but sometimes we need the energetic decisiveness of a strong executive. Once the danger is over, the exec