Interesting that Widmore was at an auction, where the journal of the balck rock captain was the item! What does everyone think, maybe he knows a lot more about the island?

what did they say the Hanso guys name was? it wasnt Magnus Hanso right? it was some other Hanso name.

Without a doubt. And Penny said taht she knew all about the island, too. I started hitting my husband, "THE BLACK ROCK!!!!" lol

Whew, that was VERY interesting.

Its pretty much proof that Widmore is chasing the island or information about it.

Whew, that was VERY interesting.

Its pretty much proof that Widmore is chasing the island or information about it.

I think the fact that he bought the ship's log in 96, coupled with the transmission Minkowski was talking about, lends creedence to the idea that the freighter is there because of Widmore, which could tie him to Abbadon.

As for the Hanso, I think the name was Tolver. Could have been wrong..it popped up quick, and there was a bit of surprise at hearing Hanso's name...

I didnt get it either But i screamed at Hanso's name

I think it was Tolvard ( I watch with Closed Captions).

I think Mr Widmore is working at cross-purposes against his daughter. It looked like he was trying to "buy up" anything that might refer to where the Island might be or what happens there. OR he knows the specialness of the Island and wants to use it's unique properties for himself.

I still think Penny is in on the whole conspiracy! ;)

This was a great tie in! the black rock- and I think they said "Talvar Hanso", hmmmm... not a big stretch from Alvar Hanso!!
If Widmore was connected to the Hanso foundation then he wouldn't have needed to Bid on the journal for so much money... so, that's odd to me... maybe Widmore and Hanso are enemies or competitors of some sort....

I think the name is Thorvald. It's a fairly common norwegian name.

Widmore clearly (in 96) had ambitions for the island. he couldn't have been buying the log to thwart penny, since desmond hadn't left on the race yet. Widmore was either buying the log to find the island... or buying it to keep other people from finding it

Sooo, presumably, the journal that Widmore bought from Hanso has details about the island. I wonder how the journal got off the island to the pirates, but whatever. They made s point to say the journal was recovered 7 years after the ship disappeared. Interesting!

I wonder why Hanso would sell the journal?
Was it a reaction to events on the island?

The auctioneer said the ledger was recovered from pirate artifacts on Madagascar seven years later (after the ship left Portsmouth in 1845). I think Locke mentioned Madagascar in Exodus pt2 as a guess on where they picked up slaves on the outward bound trip, so it looks to me that it stayed there and has nothing about the island written in it, but probably a lot about who was on the ship, where they were going and why.

The Seychelles are just north of Madagascar and possibly was another stop for the Black Rock on the way eastward to the island. Interesting that Sayid was playing golf in such an out of the way location.

Widmore bought the ledger in 1996 and I wonder how he knew it's importance? Could he himself be in the Hanso family tree? Scotland isn't far from Scandinavia.

The journal was found in Madagascar, even though the Black Rock eventually ended up
on Craphole Island.


Someone with the last name Hanso (or his heir) was selling it. Why?


The contents of the journal. even though never read, were known to be of value. Bidding
on a journal doesn't typically reach those levels, especially without the contents being
known.


I am guessing that the journal is the key to finding out what happened to the Black Rock.


Why do Widmore and his rivals want to find the Black Rock?

I believe the journal contained some mention of the Island and its destination. The Black Rock was a Pirate Ship and it probably had instructions on how to get to the Island. Over the years it probably became folk lore about the Island being a fountain of youth and Whitmore wanted to see if it was true. He purchased it in 1996 and his people were the ones who sabatoaged all the equipment on the freighter. I loved that they let us know also about how old Richard is.

They said a pirate took it from the Black Rock to a new location, Madagascar.
Hanso sold it. Why? Not yet known.
The contents probably are thought to have the Black Rock's location in it, but waaaay more importantly, the location of our island.
If they find the ship, they find the island. What they want to do to or at the island is as now still unknown.

I am searching for an answer so I am posting the same message here that I posted on another message board. Help me out if you can. Okay so in "The Constant" we learn that the Journal from Black Rock was found at Sainte Marie Madagascar (Indian Ocean). In "Confirmed Dead" we learned that the flight 815 wreckage was found (or staged to be found) in the Indian Ocean. We know that both, Black Rock and 815 wreckages, are actually in the South Pacific. I am horrible at Geography, but if you went through the earth from the bottom of the Indian Ocean, would you resurface in the South Pacific? Please feel free to have a good laugh at my "dig a hole to China" analogy. But something has got to be up with this Indian Ocean stuff!

Is it possible that the pirate time-traveled between the Black Rock and Madagascar, with a 6-year time period between each place? The contents of the journal could be similar to Daniel Faraday's journal. Hmm, thoughts?

I am guessing that the journal is the key to finding out what happened to the Black Rock.


Why do Widmore and his rivals want to find the Black Rock?

My thought was not that Widmore wanted to find out what happened to it, but rather to make sure no one else found out about it. We have seen what people who are aware of the island are willing to do to protect its secrets in the past.

I am searching for an answer so I am posting the same message here that I posted on another message board. Help me out if you can. Okay so in "The Constant" we learn that the Journal from Black Rock was found at Sainte Marie Madagascar (Indian Ocean). In "Confirmed Dead" we learned that the flight 815 wreckage was found (or staged to be found) in the Indian Ocean. We know that both, Black Rock and 815 wreckages, are actually in the South Pacific. I am horrible at Geography, but if you went through the earth from the bottom of the Indian Ocean, would you resurface in the South Pacific? Please feel free to have a good laugh at my "dig a hole to China" analogy. But something has got to be up with this Indian Ocean stuff!


There has been a lot of speculation about a wormhole being near the island. A wormhole MIGHT explain the polar bear in Tunisia, the Block Rock getting lost, and the wreckage being found nowhere near the island. I was a skeptic at first but I guess the evidence is starting to point to the fact that there is a wormhole on or near the island...

They found the 815 wreckage while looking for the Black Rock. They were looking for the Black Rock in a very specific grid. Maybe the journal had a planned route of the next voyage?

Doesn't he have the painting of the BR in his office in the episode in which Des goes to get a job?

The big question is how much does Widmore know in 1996 about the Island and that the Black Rock may be there and how? He can always say that he is going in search of the Black Rock, but secretly is searching for the Island. He may know that the ship is located there.

I'm curious as to how Widmore knows what he knows, which means that one possibility is that someone from the future told him about it. I mean that opens a whole new pandora's box if that's the case.

My thought was not that Widmore wanted to find out what happened to it, but rather to make sure no one else found out about it. We have seen what people who are aware of the island are willing to do to protect its secrets in the past

Do you think there is buried treasure on the island? This is why Widmore needed the journal?

Don't laugh at my theory. :biggrin:

Widmore bought the ledger in 1996 and I wonder how he knew it's importance? Could he himself be in the Hanso family tree? Scotland isn't far from Scandinavia.

That's where my thoughts are taking me. From the get go the show has dealt with "daddy" issues. Jacob defintely plays a role and I think he is a great grandaddy of somebody on the island somewhere down the line. I think if you bring in Widmore as a Hanso (or somebody is related to Hanso) then you could have a Hatfield and McCoy thing going on. Jacob trying to protect the island and Hanso trying to get back/recover a lost item/something?!

Thoughts?!?

:confused: :confused:

I think Widmore had to buy it in the auction b/c he and Hanso didn't want to look like they were in cahoots.

My thought was not that Widmore wanted to find out what happened to it, but rather to make sure no one else found out about it. We have seen what people who are aware of the island are willing to do to protect its secrets in the past.

I'm in hearty agreement. I've been saying for a long long time that Widmore has been in charge of the island, perhaps since the purge, and that he's been financing Ben's operation. (The link in my sig has a huge amount of detail explaining this...)

The fact that his daughter Penny knew to have people listening for magnetic anomalies, the fact that she was right there when Charlie shut the jamming down, the fact that she asked Charlie how he got that frequency (meaning she knew the frequency was special) just scrams that she has an inside contact into the people who communicate with Ben's people and who know all about the island. It looks like Daddy's organization has some security leaks.

Also, what's really exciting is that...

Next week's episode has Juliet flashbacks, is set entirely on the island, and has Widmore as a character!!!

We may just get some tantalizing info on all this next week...

I believe the journal contained some mention of the Island and its destination. The Black Rock was a Pirate Ship and it probably had instructions on how to get to the Island. Over the years it probably became folk lore about the Island being a fountain of youth and Whitmore wanted to see if it was true. He purchased it in 1996 and his people were the ones who sabatoaged all the equipment on the freighter. I loved that they let us know also about how old Richard is.

When did they let us know about how old Richard is?????? I must have missed that. thanks

My thought was not that Widmore wanted to find out what happened to it, but rather to make sure no one else found out about it. We have seen what people who are aware of the island are willing to do to protect its secrets in the past.


1. This assumes that Widmore knew about it. We don't have evidence for that. Prior to
1996 we know that Dharma/Hanso did know about it, but not Widmore. Are you
implying that Widmore is working with Dharma/Hanso?

2. People have mentioned the island, but the journal (unread mind you) relates to the
ship. If you want to make the argument that the journal leads you to the island then
you somehow have to know that the ship visited the island at some point. How would
anyone not on the ship and who hadn't read the journal tie the Black Rock to the island?
My guess is that people who were on the ship (maybe even Hanso) made it off the
island at some point.

When did they let us know about how old Richard is?????? I must have missed that. thanks
Missed that one myself.

I think the poster meant that Richard, of the Others who are supposed to be native to the island, was probably part of the crew from the 1845 shipwreck, i.e., he's over 150 years old. The journal with details of the properties of the island turns up in 1852, is returned to the Hansos, descendents of Thorvald Hanso, and they start their investigations and operations re the island. Widmore is powerful, hears hints of the island, and bids on the journal, which is what gives Penny clues as to where the island and Desmond are.

That's my scenario. I love Penny's name - Penelope, and its connection to the faithful Penelope who awaited Ullyses (Odysseus's) return from his long odyssey. Our Penny waits for Desmond, whose fate is to adventure and misadventure for years before being reunited. What a great episode! One of my favorites so far.

1. This assumes that Widmore knew about it. We don't have evidence for that. Prior to
1996 we know that Dharma/Hanso did know about it, but not Widmore. Are you
implying that Widmore is working with Dharma/Hanso?

2. People have mentioned the island, but the journal (unread mind you) relates to the
ship. If you want to make the argument that the journal leads you to the island then
you somehow have to know that the ship visited the island at some point. How would
anyone not on the ship and who hadn't read the journal tie the Black Rock to the island?
My guess is that people who were on the ship (maybe even Hanso) made it off the
island at some point.

I think there's evidence that Widmore has intimate knowledge of the island. This would include the Black Rock. Consider...

From TLE, we know that Widmore was involved in creating the Dharma infrastructure on the island. It wasn't specifically said, but he was likely a subcontractor to Hanso.
While we've seen glimpses of various parts of Widmore's financial empire, the portion we know about that would have been useful to Hanso would have been his construction business. If he was involved in the construction, he'd have had men and equipment all over the island during the construction phase. And, unless you have your own construction company, this is a job that gets subcontracted out.
Penny knew to have a listening post set up to look for magnetic fluctuations that would help her locate Desmond, as we saw in the S2 finale. No matter how much money you have to help in your search, you don't get this kind of info unless you have a contact who...
Has intimate knowledge of the island and its magnetic properties.
Knows that Des is somehow connected to the island.
We don't know who has that knowledge, but considering her father was involved there, he (or actually, someone in his organization who's leaking information) is gonna be the prime suspect...
As soon as Charlie had the jammer shut down, Penny had an incoming message going to the Looking glass, with a video link, no less. Not only that, but she asked Charlie how he got that frequency, showing she knew the frequency was special. You don't get this kind of info unless you have a contact who knows all about the communication frequencies and even communication protocols (consider the video link...) that are used in communicating with the island. Again, Daddy Widmore's organization is the prime suspect for this leaked information.
Desmond was _given_ a fabulously expensive yacht _for_free_ by a _total_stranger_. This is far far beyond the normal "Lost Coincidences" we've seen; it's very likely a setup perpetrated by someone who wanted Des on the island. It's certainly possible that the navigational equipment on this amazing "gift" was rigged to "guide" Des to the island. At least on the list of suspects for this act would be Widmore, who could then separate his Little Daughter from Des, once and for all.
The Real Henry Gale's balloon also had a Widmore logo on it. While only a piece of circumstantial evidence, when added to the rest it may suggest that Gale was also being dumped on the island that Widmore may have known much about. If so, it adds to the list that makes it appear that Widmore's fingerprints are all over the island...BTW, we may be getting some reasonable substantiating (or contradicting!!!) info on this in "The Other Woman." It turns out that...

The ep has Juliet flashbacks, it's set entirely _on_th_island_, and in the list of characters for the show is... Charles Widmore!!!

I think there's evidence that Widmore has intimate knowledge of the island. This would include the Black Rock. Consider...

From TLE, we know that Widmore was involved in creating the Dharma infrastructure on the island. It wasn't specifically said, but he was likely a subcontractor to Hanso.
While we've seen glimpses of various parts of Widmore's financial empire, the portion we know about that would have been useful to Hanso would have been his construction business. If he was involved in the construction, he'd have had men and equipment all over the island during the construction phase. And, unless you have your own construction company, this is a job that gets subcontracted out.
Penny knew to have a listening post set up to look for magnetic fluctuations that would help her locate Desmond, as we saw in the S2 finale. No matter how much money you have to help in your search, you don't get this kind of info unless you have a contact who...
Has intimate knowledge of the island and its magnetic properties.
Knows that Des is somehow connected to the island.
We don't know who has that knowledge, but considering her father was involved there, he (or actually, someone in his organization who's leaking information) is gonna be the prime suspect...
As soon as Charlie had the jammer shut down, Penny had an incoming message going to the Looking glass, with a video link, no less. Not only that, but she asked Charlie how he got that frequency, showing she knew the frequency was special. You don't get this kind of info unless you have a contact who knows all about the communication frequencies and even communication protocols (consider the video link...) that are used in communicating with the island. Again, Daddy Widmore's organization is the prime suspect for this leaked information.
Desmond was _given_ a fabulously expensive yacht _for_free_ by a _total_stranger_. This is far far beyond the normal "Lost Coincidences" we've seen; it's very likely a setup perpetrated by someone who wanted Des on the island. It's certainly possible that the navigational equipment on this amazing "gift" was rigged to "guide" Des to the island. At least on the list of suspects for this act would be Widmore, who could then separate his Little Daughter from Des, once and for all.
The Real Henry Gale's balloon also had a Widmore logo on it. While only a piece of circumstantial evidence, when added to the rest it may suggest that Gale was also being dumped on the island that Widmore may have known much about. If so, it adds to the list that makes it appear that Widmore's fingerprints are all over the island...BTW, we may be getting some reasonable substantiating (or contradicting!!!) info on this in "The Other Woman." It turns out that...

The ep has Juliet flashbacks, it's set entirely _on_th_island_, and in the list of characters for the show is... Charles Widmore!!!


Good post, but one thing to consider is that the auction was in 1996. So it's perfectly
reasonable to assume that Widmore had knowledge of the island prior to many of these
events (e.g. Henry Gale balloon, Penny phone call, Desmond's boat). The point I was
trying to make is how Widmore knows about the Black Rock prior to his purchase of
the journal. If he had been on the island before, or had knowledge of it through
construction of Dharma facilities, then he didn't need the journal. So what information
is contained in the journal that he needed? Alternately, if he didn't have that knowledge
before then how did he know the journal was important?

It's certainly possible that the navigational equipment on this amazing "gift" was rigged to "guide" Des to the island.
I think that's a bit much. Not even DHARMA could get to the island without following the sonar beacon.
100%
That's my scenario. I love Penny's name - Penelope, and its connection to the faithful Penelope who awaited Ullyses (Odysseus's) return from his long odyssey. Our Penny waits for Desmond, whose fate is to adventure and misadventure for years before being reunited. What a great episode! One of my favorites so far.
And Desmond has already defeated the Cyclops. Does that mean the sirens are next?

Shall I add to the speculation? What has Widmore learned, via the journal, between 1996 and 2004 where we are now. Upcoming info maybe?

Cow
Chicken
Ferris Wheel.

When I heard "Madagascar", I started searching every forum that I had ever posted on, for a thread of mine that included information about Madagascar.

I posted the following on another forum on 2/6/07.

Title of the thread: Daylight crash = possible tsunami danger

We saw the plane crash in daylight, and according to Desmond's printout it was 4:16 pm on September 22, 2004.

According to Gregg Nations, a script coodinator and writer for Lost, the plane crashed at 4:16 "island time".

Flying East from Sydney at 151° East longitude, towards LA at 118° West longitude, you would cross the International Date Line at 180° longitude, making it Sept 21, not Sept 22.
In order for the plane to take off from Sydney, be in the air for 8 hours, (six hours then radio failure, then 2 more hours in the air), and then land, or crash, in the same calender day, at 4:16 pm, the plane would have to fly West, into the Indian Ocean.

Flight 815 takes off at 2:55pm, add 8 hours flight time, that makes it 10:55pm Sydney time. When it's around 11pm Sydney time, where in the world is it around 4pm? The East coast of the African Continent and the island of Madagascar, areas affected by the Sumatra Tsunami.



That is what I posted over a year ago, and how convenient that it also includes data concerning the Indonesian Tsunami of 12/26/2004, which, according to the calender on the freighter is in 2 days. The calender shows the month of December, and days 1 thru 23 are crossed out, making it December 24 2004.

I really hate bringing up the Tsunami, and coupled with the information given by Omar, the freighter last ported in Fiji, I do not think that the Tsunami will affect the survivors, or was Omar just setting up "The Official Survivors Story"? The following is dialog from the show......

Keamy: My name is Keamy and this is Omar..... I'm from Vegas and he's from Florida, but as for where we are, I....
Omar: (interupting Keamy) We last ported in Fiji, so at least we know we're still in the Pacific.

Was it just me or could anyone else "hear" Keamy's sentence going in this direction.....
"I'm from Vegas and he's from Florida, but as for where we are, I haven't got a clue.", before Omar interjected that they sailed out of Fiji, and were in the Pacific. It's like Omar was trying to remind Keamy of what they were supposed to tell the survivors "IF" any of them ever made it off the island.

NOW BACK TO THE BLACK ROCK / MADAGASCAR THING.....

Auctioneer:
"The Black Rock, set sail from Portsmouth England, March 22nd, 1845, on a trading mission to the Kingdom of Siam, when she was tragically lost at sea. The only known artifact of this journey, is the journal of the ship's first mate, which was discovered among the artifacts of pirates on Ile Sainte Marie Madagascar, seven years later. The contents of this journal have never been made public, nor are know to anyone outside of the family of the seller, Tovard Hanso."

The journal of the first mate of The Black Rock was found on Ile Sainte Marie, off of the coast of Madagascar, seven years after The Black Rock was lost at sea. We know that Flight 815 crashed onto the same island that The Black Rock is on, does this mean that the survivors are really on Ile Saint Marie? That would seem to fit the back story on the Journal of the Black Rock's first mate, being found by some pirates near Madagascar, Are there any other clues that Ile Sainte Marie or it's surroundings could be the crash location?
According to WIKI
1) Ile Sainte-Marie, or St. Mary's Island as it is known in English, became a popular base for pirates throughout the 17th and 18th centuries.

HMMMMMM.... Pirates lived there? Didn't Richard Alpert look like he was dressed as a pirate when he first encountered young Ben?

2) The utopian pirate republic of Libertatia was also rumored to exist in this area, although the republic's existence, let alone its location, has never been proven.

A mystical utopian society on an uncharted island?
Sounds like DHARMA to me.




Sorry for going is so many directions..... but what are your thoughts on these observations?

I think there's evidence that Widmore has intimate knowledge of the island. This would include the Black Rock. Consider...
From TLE, we know that Widmore was involved in creating the Dharma infrastructure on the island. It wasn't specifically said, but he was likely a subcontractor to Hanso.

I love all the other points you made and could def be on board with them. However, I thought, per Darlton's confession, (and correct me if I am wrong...) that TLE was NOT supposed to be taken as canon with this show. The mobisodes and anything on the abc website is fair game as are the real epis (obviously!)

May I correct axpo23...23 = electromagnetism
Anyway...Find 815, not canon. TLE, Mobisodes...canon. 100% canon...episodes that air.

What that tells me is that TLE is intended to be canon but they are reserving the right to change something if necessary...writer's strikes, hurricanes, whatever. IMO

I saw a cow.
I killed a chicken.
I was on a ferris wheel.

May I correct axpo23...23 = electromagnetism
Anyway...Find 815, not canon. TLE, Mobisodes...canon. 100% canon...episodes that air.

What that tells me is that TLE is intended to be canon but they are reserving the right to change something if necessary...writer's strikes, hurricanes, whatever. IMO

I saw a cow.
I killed a chicken.
I was on a ferris wheel.

Ok, my bad. I guess I was getting TLE and Find815 confused. Thanks!

BTW, we may be getting some reasonable substantiating (or contradicting!!!) info on this in "The Other Woman." It turns out that...

Gosh, even the stuff you didn't spoiler-front is spoiler info. I didn't want to know that there would be anything specifically pertaining to this discussion on the next episode. I thought that even the names of unaired episodes were considered spoilers. I just wish that people would leave spoilers on the spoiler board, PERIOD. Anyone who wants to read them can go there. It be useful in this discussion because it can't be mentioned in subsequent posts, so what's the point?

Good post, but one thing to consider is that the auction was in 1996. So it's perfectly
reasonable to assume that Widmore had knowledge of the island prior to many of these
events (e.g. Henry Gale balloon, Penny phone call, Desmond's boat). The point I was
trying to make is how Widmore knows about the Black Rock prior to his purchase of
the journal. If he had been on the island before, or had knowledge of it through
construction of Dharma facilities, then he didn't need the journal. So what information
is contained in the journal that he needed? Alternately, if he didn't have that knowledge
before then how did he know the journal was important?

I think you're presuming that Widmore needs information that's in the journal. There are other possibilities...

Since the contents have not been revealed outside the Hanso family, he doesn't know what's in it. However, he wishes to be sure that if any pertinent info is in it, that it's _not_ revealed to others who may be looking for the island. His presence at the auction, rather than sending a proxy, might be because he wants to see who _else_ is bidding on the item.
If Widmore _is_ in charge on the island, he's effectively defeated the Hanso family by throwing them off the island. To also own some of the Hansos' artifacts on the island's history is a way of showing symbolic dominance. He's asserted symbolic dominance to Desmond all along; why would this aspect of his personality be expressed to one character only? His physical presence at the auction would then be important as he would be personally committing a "conquest" upon the Hanso family.
Knowing all about the island, he may have a filthy-rich-collector's-interest in the island's past and its artifacts, and is simply acting as a collector. The purpose of that scene would then simply be an in-your-face wakeup call (like Desmond's sergeant) to point to Widmore's connection to things, for those who haven't picked up on all the other clues they've been dropping us over the past two years... Widmore's physical presence would then be due to his collector's interest and the actual acquisition being part of the thrill of collecting.
Any or all three of the above, at the same time...
100%
Gosh, even the stuff you didn't spoiler-front is spoiler info. I didn't want to know that there would be anything specifically pertaining to this discussion on the next episode. I thought that even the names of unaired episodes were considered spoilers. I just wish that people would leave spoilers on the spoiler board, PERIOD. Anyone who wants to read them can go there. It be useful in this discussion because it can't be mentioned in subsequent posts, so what's the point?

My heartiest apologies. If even the episode titles are considered spoilers then I've done a naughty; again, my apologies. The original intent in mentioning the actual title actually _did_ have a point. It was to mark the spoiler as not being the least bit spoilerish after tonight, so that those reading the post tomorrow would know they could read the spoiler-tagged part and still remain spoiler-free. In the future, I guess I'd use episode numbers, to avoid titles altogether.

On the positive side, please note that I didn't say that tonight's episode has info pertinent to the discussion; that's entirely speculation on my part based on what the spoiler is (which I promise not to mention further), so please don't feel spoiled in that respect. Whether it does or not, remains to be seen; I'm just excited by the possibilities. So your only actual spoiler here is knowing the episode title, because aside from the fact that I have speculations, that's all I really know...

My apologies, one last time...

I think you're presuming that Widmore needs information that's in the journal. There are other possibilities...

Since the contents have not been revealed outside the Hanso family, he doesn't know what's in it. However, he wishes to be sure that if any pertinent info is in it, that it's _not_ revealed to others who may be looking for the island. His presence at the auction, rather than sending a proxy, might be because he wants to see who _else_ is bidding on the item.
If Widmore _is_ in charge on the island, he's effectively defeated the Hanso family by throwing them off the island. To also own some of the Hansos' artifacts on the island's history is a way of showing symbolic dominance. He's asserted symbolic dominance to Desmond all along; why would this aspect of his personality be expressed to one character only? His physical presence at the auction would then be important as he would be personally committing a "conquest" upon the Hanso family.
Knowing all about the island, he may have a filthy-rich-collector's-interest in the island's past and its artifacts, and is simply acting as a collector. The purpose of that scene would then simply be an in-your-face wakeup call (like Desmond's sergeant) to point to Widmore's connection to things, for those who haven't picked up on all the other clues they've been dropping us over the past two years... Widmore's physical presence would then be due to his collector's interest and the actual acquisition being part of the thrill of collecting.
Any or all three of the above, at the same time...



1. He could see who else was bidding without being the winning bidder. He looked
pretty satisfied that he won the bid.

2. I'm not sure I buy that explanation. He wasn't bidding against the Hansos for the
journal. In fact, the Hansos were the sellers.

3. This explanation is possible, but not very satisfying. However, the price the journal
went for means it was coveted by others. A simple collector would not be willing to
pay so much for the item, so that implies that someone else (not Hanso and not
Widmore) was an active bidder who valued the journal for the information inside of it
rather than as a simple collector. That brings us full circle to: How does this third
party (rather than Widmore or Hanso) know that the journal contains valuable
information in it?

I have a theory that Widmore's interest in the island is financial. It seems clear that the island is not some island that nobody on the outside knows about other than the remnants of DI. In fact, the more story revealed, the more it seems that quite a few people know about it.

Widmore owns a pharmaceutival/ medical company. Sun took a Widmore pregnancy test. Perhaps Widmore's interest in the island is in it's healing powers. What a coup for his business if that power was tapped into for commercial use.

The island has

My apologies, one last time...

Meh, its not THAT big of a deal. I'm known to skim the spoiler board from time to time. I just feel like its rare that posting a spoiler on here does give SOMETHING away for SOMEONE because even the vague discussion around a spoiler can usually gives something away by deduction.

Again, its not a huge deal. Just an opinion.

Do you suppose that Jacob could be/ have been the captain of the ill-fated Black Rock? I thought I read a post where someone suggested Jacob looked a bit like an old-salt. When the Losties first encounter The Others, the Others do appear a bit like pirates...

Also (from memory, haven't re-watched the relevent episode) wasn't the Black Rock found in middle of the island...or at least some way inland from the coast? How did the sailing ship end up there?

Firstly, I think the name is Tovard but nevermind. Regarding Charles Widmore, I think that he has been looking for the island for a long time. This journal is a sign of it. Another thing I noticed is that it has been said that the Christiane I, the boat that found the fake Oceanic 815, was looking for the Black Rock. So let's say that Widmore was the one that put the plane underwater. How can we prove it apart from the information given by Mr. Friendly in MKJ? Well he knew that the first place they would look for the ship in is the ship's route and as he had the journal which may indicate the route then he would know exactly where to put the plane so that it can be easily found.

I still don't get how the journal got off of the island. I also don't understand how it is the Dharma Initiative never did anything with it. Did the Dharma people take the journal off of the island?