The auction was amazing. The log of the Black Rock, written by the first mate, was sold by Hanso, and bought by Widmore.

Who is the first mate?

It was written by Hanso, first name started with a T... or was that who was selling it?

That was who was selling it. Torvand Hanso? I didn't hear a name given as the author/first mate. Did I miss it?

Yes....very nice tie in. :)

I wonder why Hanso would sell something like that . . .

I was wondering that also. I'm sitting in a hotel room and don't have my DVR so I thought I had missed them saying the 1st mates name. Nuts another question

I was on baited breath, waiting hear the name John Locke as the author/First Mate, or Jacob Something-or-other . . . .

I wonder why Hanso would sell something like that . . .

I was thinking the same thing. Perhaps he's given up on the island and its msyteries. But obviously someone had to bring the journal back from the Black Rock.

MY LORD! When is the last time we've heard some of these names? I was starting to think the Hanso/Widmore storyline has been a red herring.

The auction scene had me jumping up and down in excitement. =]

Maybe Hanso just needs the money after blowing it all on the Dharma debacle
lol

Do you think there was any significance to the other bidders in the auction? 380,000 pounds . . . a bid that high by collectors I guess isn't that out of the question, but it was such a curious scene.

Of all things, Desmond busting in at the exact moment . . .

This also introduced a new Hanso name - Tovard. We've heard about Magnus, Charles and Penny. Wonder who Tovard is or was?? Unless I misunderstood and it's Tovard Hanso's log because I understood that Magnus Hanso was the captain of the Black Rock. Be kind, I've been a litte excited watching the ep and may not have absorbed everything yet.

Doesn't that make it likely that this freighter is financed by Widmore. If he reads something in that ship's journal, maybe that's how he got so close to the island without knowing it's exact location. Like Naomi said, they were given coordinates, but not the island's exact location. Just my thoughts.......

Both the freighter AND the Black Rock were probably financed by Hanso . . . .

Purchasing that book WOULD give the coordinates of the island. A very valuable book indeed.

Is this how Penny found the island?

The lot number was 2342, not surprisingly.

Doesn't that make it likely that this freighter is financed by Widmore. If he reads something in that ship's journal, maybe that's how he got so close to the island without knowing it's exact location. Like Naomi said, they were given coordinates, but not the island's exact location. Just my thoughts.......

Definitely. If it was financed by Widmore it would explain why they knew not to answer the call - they knew that Penny would try to find them. Five years after her father buys the book, she comes to find out more about it. At the same time, it/he could have very well had something to do Desmond's trip around the world and the route that he was on in the first place. So anyway, she finds out more about what her dad has done and spends the next three years searching for Desmond.

I'm so confused . . .

Hanso sold the log, which doesn't make much sense since he was behind the DHARMA Initiative. At some point he probably knew where the island was. Wouldn't it be worthwile to him to slavage the Black Rock?

If he washes his hands of the Black Rock -- at the very least a clue to the island's locale -- why would he sell the journal allowing others to go there?

Was the journal written by Tovard Hanso? Is there a Tovard Hanso? I thought they just said first mate, which gave me a guess at who it could be


Richard Alpert



At the same time, it/he could have very well had something to do Desmond's trip around the world and the route that he was on in the first place.


I've been saying this for a while that the solo race was a shm and that Des was Widmore's guinnea pig.

All of your questions are good. I was just happy for another Find 815 ARG tie in!!
That is a real painting, btw, just can't remember off-hand who really painted it. Another ARGer will remember. TPTB must have had to get permission to pretend that famous painting was really about a fictitious ship call the Black Rock. Oh, also, an 815 tie in to Penny's address. Cheyne Walk.

I'm so confused . . .

Hanso sold the log, which doesn't make much sense since he was behind the DHARMA Initiative. At some point he probably knew where the island was. Wouldn't it be worthwile to him to slavage the Black Rock?

If he washes his hands of the Black Rock -- at the very least a clue to the island's locale -- why would he sell the journal allowing others to go there?

Was the journal written by Tovard Hanso? Is there a Tovard Hanso? I thought they just said first mate, which gave me a guess at who it could be


Richard Alpert




I've been saying this for a while that the solo race was a shm and that Des was Widmore's guinnea pig.


I thought the same thing about your post in side the spoiler font and that Desmond was sent out as a guinea pig to land on the Island

Oh, also, an 815 tie in to Penny's address. Cheyne Walk.

Her address contained some of the numbers as well 423 (42/23).

I'm guessing the first mate will end up being Richard or Jacob. ...Or Christian Shepherd!! ;)Maybe Hanso just needs the money after blowing it all on the Dharma debacle
lolRemember though the auction was back in 1996.

I'm so confused . . .

Hanso sold the log, which doesn't make much sense since he was behind the DHARMA Initiative. At some point he probably knew where the island was. Wouldn't it be worthwile to him to slavage the Black Rock?

If he washes his hands of the Black Rock -- at the very least a clue to the island's locale -- why would he sell the journal allowing others to go there?

Was the journal written by Tovard Hanso? Is there a Tovard Hanso? I thought they just said first mate, which gave me a guess at who it could be

Alvar Hanso was behind Dharma.
Richard Alpert




I've been saying this for a while that the solo race was a shm and that Des was Widmore's guinnea pig.

I'm trying to make connections with Magnus and Torvald Hanso, and why he would be selling the log. Do we think he didn't know what he was selling? Someone suggested that maybe Hanso fell on hard times after the destruction of The Dharma Initiative. Maybe he simply needed the money?

I was on baited breath, waiting hear the name John Locke as the author/First Mate, or Jacob Something-or-other . . . .

I was waiting to hear Richard's name mentioned.

I was waiting to hear Richard's name mentioned.

Yes - I love the idea of Alpert being on the Black Rock. I felt that the clothing he was wearing when young Ben found Alpert in the jungle was of that era . . .

could the "first mate" be Ben traveling through time to get part of the 2.3 mil he needs?

I'm starting to wonder if al of our Losties, and other island regulars, have a connection to the Black Rock.

Does anyone have a screencap of Bidder 887? He looks to me alot like Alvar Hanso http://www.thehansofoundation.org/

Is there any significance that this auction took place back in 1996?

I am also wondering if Richard Alpert has some tie in with the Black Rock. That dude does not age!

I thought the same thing about your post in side the spoiler font and that Desmond was sent out as a guinea pig to land on the Island
A little bit of a drift from the original topic, but that could lead to some insight about Libby's character. If Widmore set up Desmond, he would have to make sure he would have access to a boat. Enter Libby. There is still a lot we don't know about her, like how she was in the same mental facility as Hurly was pre-island

Does anyone have a screencap of Bidder 887? He looks to me alot like Alvar Hanso http://www.thehansofoundation.org/

Me too! Great minds...

Screencap (http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/8471/hanso887wg3.jpg)

I haven't seen anything about this...I can't search, so I could be wrong. I swear the auctioneer said that someone named Hanso was selling the ledger from the Black Rock.

I haven't seen anything about this...I can't search, so I could be wrong. I swear the auctioneer said that someone named Hanso was selling the ledger from the Black Rock.


Yes the ledger was from a first mate on the Black Rock. and yes - Yargo (or something like that) Hanso was selling it.

Wow, nice. Looks too similar not to be him.

I haven't seen anything about this...I can't search, so I could be wrong. I swear the auctioneer said that someone named Hanso was selling the ledger from the Black Rock.

I believe the auctioneer said that the ledger was written by Hanso...can't remember the first name. i know it wasn't Magnus or Alvar Hanso.

Yes the ledger was from a first mate on the Black Rock. and I think they said Yargo (or something like that) Hanso was selling it.
Widmore bought it in 1996 at auction for £380,000, the seller then was Tovard Hanso

I'm curious as to how the Hanso family got their hands on it, it was the first mates Journal not Magnus'

Perhaps the first mate is our faithful and ageless Richard Alpert, who:

apparently will be back in the story line again, according to Cuse and Lindelof's Podcast.

Doesn't look at all like the same guy to me.

I don't think Alvar Hanso knew about the auction or had anything to do with it -- the log was being sold by Torvard (sp?) Hanso, who I'm guessing is some relative of Alvar's who got hold of the log long ago and who's trying to make a quick buck.

Of course, the other option is that it's a fake, and Alvar planted it in order to send Widmore on a wild goose chase.

Cool, thanks! Has it already been brought up? I'd be shocked if it hadn't.

I think the first mate was a hanso

Yeah, the captain was not Hanso, I don't think.

Maybe this is how Ben makes some of his money-selling artifacts like the "black rock ledger". The name could be a front for Ben or one of his people on the outside world.

Magnus was not the captain, he owned and operated the New World Sea Traders, which managed slips 18-27 of the portsmouth docks, the Black Rock launched from slip 23, it is likely Magnus Hanso was captaining the Black Rock himself when it dissapeared, taken from the Lostpedia article about the Black Rockhttp://www.lostpedia.com/wiki/Black_rock#History_.28from_The_Lost_Experience.29

Journal wasn't being sold by Hanso - the auctioneer said it was found in the hands of pirates (off Madagascar, I think) - I'm more interested in how Widmore knew (or suspected) what might be in the journal (about the island, I assume) that he blew that kind of money on the book.

Journal wasn't being sold by Hanso - the auctioneer said it was found in the hands of pirates (off Madagascar, I think) - I'm more interested in how Widmore knew (or suspected) what might be in the journal (about the island, I assume) that he blew that kind of money on the book.

Probably because Widmore Industries was the red headed step-child in the whole Dharma Initiative. They were on the outside supplying manpower and engineering expertise, but wasn't in the inner sanctum of the project. Widmore knows what kind of potential lies within the Island and wants his piece of the pie.

Good point on the Hanso needing money. Remember, Ben has a large sum of cash aparently. Maybe he sold it.
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Good point on the Hanso needing money. Remember, Ben has a large sum of cash aparently. Maybe he sold it.

im gonna throw this out there. watched the episode last night with closed captioning (mexican roomates). after widmore won the diary, the next item up for bidding was according to the auctioneer something to do with a charles dickens book and a guy reading it before he died. that is what i saw on the closed captioning and wondering if anyone else saw this. the significance being, isnt desmond's 'our mutual friend' authored by dickens? i dont have tivo nor did i record it, so someone might have to go back and see if that is what was really said.

I'm so confused . . .

Hanso sold the log, which doesn't make much sense since he was behind the DHARMA Initiative. At some point he probably knew where the island was. Wouldn't it be worthwile to him to slavage the Black Rock?

If he washes his hands of the Black Rock -- at the very least a clue to the island's locale -- why would he sell the journal allowing others to go there?

Was the journal written by Tovard Hanso? Is there a Tovard Hanso? I thought they just said first mate, which gave me a guess at who it could be


Richard Alpert




I've been saying this for a while that the solo race was a shm and that Des was Widmore's guinnea pig.
I was totally thinking the same thing about who the 1st mate could be... don't know if it deserves a spoiler font, since it's just a guess, but... this would explain why he and his groupies were dressed like pirates in Ben's flashback episode, I always thought they were sailors from the Black Rock, just wasn't sure how it would fit... or maybe Richard IS a Hanso and he's going by a different name, hmmm... either way, I think this makes TOTAL sense

I don't think Alvar Hanso knew about the auction or had anything to do with it -- the log was being sold by Torvard (sp?) Hanso, who I'm guessing is some relative of Alvar's who got hold of the log long ago and who's trying to make a quick buck.

Of course, the other option is that it's a fake, and Alvar planted it in order to send Widmore on a wild goose chase.

Judging from his age in the Orientation film, Alvar ought to be due to die of old age around this time, so I'm betting he had, this was an auction to tidy up his estate, and Torvard is some relative who didn't know the significance of the ledger and unwisely put it on the block.

My only question, how did the book get off the island. If the islands coordinates are in the book, then it would have had to get off the island, and the Black Rock ship is still on the island.

Could it have something to do with the Polar Bear and why Charlotte is an anthropologist (I think sponsored by Widmore) She is trying to find things that have "jumped" off the island into another time and place??

I think the log is important to this episode because of Miles Log. I think the Black Rock log first mate may be like Miles or Desmond who talk about their "flashes" and a need for a "constant." That is why Desmond is in the scene. Could it be Desmond needs to get that book in his past time to find out to deal with his "present"?

Doesn't look at all like the same guy to me.
I think there's certainly some similarities there. It's definitely not a case of Apples & Oranges. Take into account that there is an eight-year gap between photos. Also, the bidder is wearing an ever-so-obvious wig. Surely that's a give-away?

Journal wasn't being sold by Hanso - the auctioneer said it was found in the hands of pirates (off Madagascar, I think) - I'm more interested in how Widmore knew (or suspected) what might be in the journal (about the island, I assume) that he blew that kind of money on the book.
Found in the artifacts of pirates in Madagascar seven years after the Black Rock was lost. The contents were never made public nor known to anyone outside the family of the seller, Tovar Hanso.

MY LORD! When is the last time we've heard some of these names? I was starting to think the Hanso/Widmore storyline has been a red herring.

The auction scene had me jumping up and down in excitement. =]

I had a feeling from the first time we met Widmore he was more important than we were lead to believe. Does anyone think he may be the funding behind the Dharma initiative? Remember, Widmore is extremely wealthy.

It's so fun watching this unfold.

At least the auction would explain why Penny says she knows about the island over the phone with Desmond.

WOW. Amazing thread. OK to summarize a few key points made in this thread that I think really tie into the overall plot:

-Widmore buys the Black Rock journal and learns where the island is.
-Widmore uses a fake race around the world as a way to lure Desmond towards the island as guinea pig.
-Penny discovers this, which makes her realize Desmond really is still in love with her, which is why she is determined to find him.
-Widmore is now using his freighter to get onto the island. He knows Penny is trying to find the island too using the co-ordinates and instructs the ship to not accept her communications.
-This is why when they are finally reunited in communication all is forgiven.

This may be something or it may be nothing (on this show you never know) but the camera stayed on Widmores bidding number long enough so we would be sure to see it. His number was 755 and right away I noticed that was Desmonds time difference between 1996 and 2004 when he was in Faradys lab. Farrady looked at his watch when Desmond came back and said "75 minuites", asked Desmond how long he was in the future and Des said 5 minuites and that seemed to excite Farady. 75 - 5 An Easter egg or am I reaching?

Do you think there was any significance to the other bidders in the auction? 380,000 pounds . . . a bid that high by collectors I guess isn't that out of the question, but it was such a curious scene.

Of all things, Desmond busting in at the exact moment . . .


A bid that high for a journal from the late 1800s is *VERY* unusual. Even the starting
bid was exorbitant. The auction house knew there was a big market for that journal
and whatever information may be contained in it and Widmore wasn't the only party
bidding on it.

Perhaps the first mate is our faithful and ageless Richard Alpert, who:

apparently will be back in the story line again, according to Cuse and Lindelof's Podcast.

Whate date is the podcast that states that I cant seem to find it?

Maybe the real seller is Ben and this is how he makes money. The pirate thing could be a false trail.

Second thought.he wouldn't want the info leaked. Disregard my brain scramble please,

I was waiting to hear Richard's name mentioned.
Me too and the fact that they didn't give the first mates name leaves me hopeful that it might be Richie Alpert and they just don't want to reveal that yet.

Good point on the Hanso needing money. Remember, Ben has a large sum of cash aparently. Maybe he sold it.
100%
Good point on the Hanso needing money. Remember, Ben has a large sum of cash aparently. Maybe he sold it.

indeed ben could have sold it. he knew where the island is and where the black rock is. he retreived the book and made a copy via the orchid i think because ben's journal that he used in last season's finale looks a lot like the one that was sold

Back when we saw Richard in the past, my mind immediately jumped to a crew member of the Black Rock. And it was great to see some concrete connections between Widmore and Hanso, there has been some much speculation and conjecture in that direction.

How the book got off the island is a great question, along with the perennial mysteries of Hanso.

Ok is it just me, or what...I keep thinking Tovard is an anagram for another name...Dr...something... Anyone agree???

Ok is it just me, or what...I keep thinking Tovard is an anagram for another name...Dr...something... Anyone agree???

I have already tried it on an anagram server... The only thing that made any sense was
Vat Rod, until someone smarter than me comes up with something else, I would say it is not an anagram.

I'm thinking that Widmore already knew of the island and was (calmly) bidding on the ship's log to keep the information under wraps.

Richard Alpert is a great guess for the first mate and I suspect that Torvad Hanso is Alvar's son, who is probably an innocent bystander in the whole drama.

Widmore industries now owns what is left of the Hanso foundation - and I am a true believer that Charles Widmore is the puppet master.

WOW. Amazing thread. OK to summarize a few key points made in this thread that I think really tie into the overall plot:

-Widmore buys the Black Rock journal and learns where the island is.
-Widmore uses a fake race around the world as a way to lure Desmond towards the island as guinea pig.
-Penny discovers this, which makes her realize Desmond really is still in love with her, which is why she is determined to find him.
-Widmore is now using his freighter to get onto the island. He knows Penny is trying to find the island too using the co-ordinates and instructs the ship to not accept her communications.
-This is why when they are finally reunited in communication all is forgiven.
This makes a lot of sense to me. Only one thing. Charlie says it is not Penny's boat. Why would then Penny say to Charlie, "What boat?" Things are really starting to add up now.

This scene was awesome. Near the beginning of it, when the camera is getting a close up of the journal, it veers to the woman in the front row... right in front of the journal. The camera stays on her face for more than a brief second, which caused me to think to myself, "Who the heck is that?". The woman actually resembles Penny, but it's definitely not her. Anyone else have any thoughts on this, or was it simply a woman sitting very near the important prop in the room?

Penny said, what boat, because she isn't on a boat. Could be she doesn't immediately associate "boat" with "freighter" - after all, "boat" kind of denotes a small vessel. What cinched it for Charlie was that she asked, "Who is Naomi?" If Penny doesn't know who Naomi is, and Penny is not on the boat, then of course Charlie assumes "Not Penny's boat." And it probably isn't. The freighter is likely Daddy Widmore's boat, and Penny isn't supposed to know about it.

I wonder why Hanso would sell something like that . . .

Maybe because it was the easiest way to pass some incredibly important conspiracy top secret confidential information to Widmore?? :D

Apparently the two are connected, and not just through that...We all know what the writers are like, so it's a safe bet to assume they DO know each other, for a start...

the name one the cover ended with "EDGER"
last name possibility that i can come up with: pledger
the first mate was probably named pledger

...but at least we now know how Hanso found the Island. :)

the name one the cover ended with "EDGER"
last name possibility that i can come up with: pledger
the first mate was probably named pledger

:Welcome: to the 'Lage, awesome2! The most likely consonant in from fo the "Edger" is an L for Ledger as in a ship's ledger or log. ;)

:Welcome: to the 'Lage, awesome2! The most likely consonant in from fo the "Edger" is an L for Ledger as in a ship's ledger or log. ;)

lol wow i haven't heard about the Black Rock since....Season 2? I think that's when Sawyer killed Locke's dad..no?

lol wow i haven't heard about the Black Rock since....Season 2? I think that's when Sawyer killed Locke's dad..no?

No, James killed Locke's dad in S3's "The Brig", TLM. The sneak in a reference to it at least once a season. Still haven't found out what happened to Montand's arm though. :biggrin:

Oh! :Welcome: to the 'Lage as well, TheLostMember!

No, James killed Locke's dad in S3's "The Brig", TLM. The sneak in a reference to it at least once a season. Still haven't found out what happened to Montand's arm though. :biggrin:

Oh! :Welcome: to the 'Lage as well, TheLostMember!

Before i used to know what happened in what season, but now everything comes together as one giant movie...maybe because i've seen all three seasons in one go during winter break..:D Thanks for welcoming me to the FUSELAGE!

I was waiting to hear Richard's name mentioned.

Me too. That's who immediately came to mind.

This whole scene was very clear, if you've followed the ARGs. I agree that Tovar must be a relative of Alvar who is assumed to be a relative of Magnus.

In the most recent ARG, we were "told" that a division of the Widmore Corp had the Black Rock log, and it had a bunch of coordinates within a grid over the Sunda Trench, off the coast of Bali. One of these was the site of the 815 wreckage shown on the News, which I believe also metioned the coordinates being from the Balck Rock log, which is what teh Christiane I was really looking for, supposedly ;). BTW, we do not know any other contents of the log...

Anyway, Widmore's buying this in '96 was no surprise to me because we have been told, in show, albeit subtely, that this log led to the 815 discovery. However, this is the first in-show mention of Widmore's owning the log, and maybe being the power behind the freighter.

I did not spoiler font any of this because it has been shown "in-show". I mention the ARG info as validation and clarification. I do not intend to push anything that is not in line with what the show has "shown".

Probably because Widmore Industries was the red headed step-child in the whole Dharma Initiative. They were on the outside supplying manpower and engineering expertise, but wasn't in the inner sanctum of the project. Widmore knows what kind of potential lies within the Island and wants his piece of the pie.

I agree 100%. I have always thought that Widmore was kinda hosed during the whoel DI days. That, or Widmore Corp got privy to info about the nature of the Island and have intentions of their own.

Judging from his age in the Orientation film, Alvar ought to be due to die of old age around this time, so I'm betting he had, this was an auction to tidy up his estate, and Torvard is some relative who didn't know the significance of the ledger and unwisely put it on the block.

That makes sense why such a valuable book is up for auction.

I had a feeling from the first time we met Widmore he was more important than we were lead to believe. Does anyone think he may be the funding behind the Dharma initiative? Remember, Widmore is extremely wealthy.

It's so fun watching this unfold.

No, Alvar Hanso, and the Hanso Foundation funded the DeGroots, the couple from the University of Michigan (IIRC). I think it was such that the DeGroots discovered the Island or its possibility, knida like Daniel said "An Island!.?" to Desmond in the classroom.

Anyway, Widmore was a "subcontractor" in the DI.

No, James killed Locke's dad in S3's "The Brig", TLM. The sneak in a reference to it at least once a season. Still haven't found out what happened to Montand's arm though. :biggrin:

Oh! :Welcome: to the 'Lage as well, TheLostMember!

What's the deal with Montand and his arm? I am so lost about all these arm references :confused:

My only question, how did the book get off the island. If the islands coordinates are in the book, then it would have had to get off the island, and the Black Rock ship is still on the island.

The journal got off the island simply because the Hansos took it off the island. At least from the beginning of the Dharma Initiative -- if not decades or centuries before -- some Hansos knew all about the island. They'd certaily have found the Black Rock and removed any valuable relics.

Because the facts of the island would have to be kept secret, and the Black Rock was supposed to be lost, the pirate story was probably fabricated. This would explain the existence of relics that "shouldn't" exist. The presumption would be that the Black Rock ws captured by pirates, eventually sunk, and that some of its artifacts had survived.
100%
I had a feeling from the first time we met Widmore he was more important than we were lead to believe. Does anyone think he may be the funding behind the Dharma initiative? Remember, Widmore is extremely wealthy.

The writers have shown us not one, but _three_ wealthy and powerful industrialists. Putting one in a story is almost a cliche, these days. Putting three in a story (Hanso, Widmore, Paik) would almost be absurd -- unless each one is planted to serve a specific purpose, down the line. I've been saying for a long time that Widmore has a larger purpose.

Hanso is the one whose money has funded the Dharma initiative, as described in the Swan orientation film. Paik and Widmore's roles have yet to be revealed, but they'd have to be roles that the Hanso character couldn't also play, or they'd use him to avoid having to introduce duplicate character types. The link in my sig describes a theory that posits a three-sided struggle that seems to be happening between these three. It's backed pretty heavily by clues from the story. The first couple of postings are a light intro, to see if it's your cup of tea or not. Take a peek...
100%
I'm thinking that Widmore already knew of the island and was (calmly) bidding on the ship's log to keep the information under wraps.

I agree -- for mostly the same reasons you do. Also, he was likely checking to see who _else_ was bidding on the item...

I think Richard Alpart was the first mate!

Maybe this is how Ben makes some of his money-selling artifacts like the "black rock ledger". The name could be a front for Ben or one of his people on the outside world.


WOW, great point, maybe some of the things in his "room" are artifacts that he plans on selling. Perhaps that is why he is asked for 3.2 million. not 3.3 or 3.4. Great point!

I was wondering if the journal wasn't somehow written by someone who got their information from a different time. Sort of like Desmond writing on his hand, but whoever wrote the journal at least waited until after the time jump to start jotting things down.

By the way, dynamite wasn't invented until 1866. The Black Rock sailed in 1845. How many theories can that one spawn? :D

Does anyone have a link to the part of the episode when Richard meets up with Little Ben? (the episode where he was supposedly dressed like a pirate) Thanks a lot..I don't remember exactly how he looked.

Also...are people saying that Richard was ON the Black Rock back in the 1800s or that he was one of the pirates that found the ledger (written by someone else) on the boat? Or was he a pirate who wrote the book about finding the Black Rock?

Thanks for help! I love this show but it gets confusing sometimes. Some clarification would be awesome.

I was wondering if the journal wasn't somehow written by someone who got their information from a different time. Sort of like Desmond writing on his hand, but whoever wrote the journal at least waited until after the time jump to start jotting things down.

By the way, dynamite wasn't invented until 1866. The Black Rock sailed in 1845. How many theories can that one spawn? :D


The Black Rock disappeared in 1881, not 1845.

...What's the deal with Montand and his arm? I am so lost about all these arm references :confused:

In the Season 1 finale, when Danielle was leading Locke, Jack, Kate & Hurley to the Black Rock, she said that they were entering the "Dark Territory" and this is where Montand lost his arm. No elaboration or anything and Darlton have been joking ever since about the Montand losing his arm epi that they would have to write someday.

I noticed Ben has pictures of similar ship in his home:

http://img229.imageshack.us/img229/5203/bhomeku3.jpg

I wouldn't be surprised if Ben knew the first mate very well.

The auctioneer says Toward Hanso is the seller, but he doesn't say he was the first mate. As he states, the ledger was stolen by pirates.

Hmmm...let's try to sum this up as easily as possible...Ok here goes!


Chronogically :
- the Black Rock crashes down on the island. The crew probably survives, or at least the first mate - enough for him to write about the properties of the island and its coordinates
- the ledger somehw goes off the island and winds up in Hanso's hands (whoever is at the head of the family fortune then)
- Alvar Hanso founds the Dharma Initiative (why? the debate is still open)
- Ben organizes the purge with Alpert & cie. Dharma does not survive this, Alvar Hanso loses heaps of money, he is bankrupt and eventually dies.
- Tovar Hanso, inheriting Alvar's stuff (as well as its debts) sells pretty much anything that can make cash flowing in again.
- At the auction in 1996, Widmore buys the infamous ledger. The Widmore company learns about the island and set up on going there for their own (dark?) purposes.

This way, the passing of the island from Hanso to Widmore could be explained...Anything wrong with this series of events? I realize that there are many assumptions, but I'd really like to hear some feedback...

I wonder why Hanso would sell something like that . . .
Maybe he was selling it to give Widmore a "constant" who might be jumping around as well?

Hmmm...let's try to sum this up as easily as possible...Ok here goes!


Chronogically :
- the Black Rock crashes down on the island. The crew probably survives, or at least the first mate - enough for him to write about the properties of the island and its coordinates
- the ledger somehw goes off the island and winds up in Hanso's hands (whoever is at the head of the family fortune then)
- Alvar Hanso founds the Dharma Initiative (why? the debate is still open)
- Ben organizes the purge with Alpert & cie. Dharma does not survive this, Alvar Hanso loses heaps of money, he is bankrupt and eventually dies.
- Tovar Hanso, inheriting Alvar's stuff (as well as its debts) sells pretty much anything that can make cash flowing in again.
- At the auction in 1996, Widmore buys the infamous ledger. The Widmore company learns about the island and set up on going there for their own (dark?) purposes.

This way, the passing of the island from Hanso to Widmore could be explained...Anything wrong with this series of events? I realize that there are many assumptions, but I'd really like to hear some feedback...

Sorry, totally wrong. According to 'The Lost Experience' which is canon:

An ancestor of Alvar Hanso, Magnus Hanso, owned the Black Rock, which explains why he would end up holding the ledger (he would have wanted to reacquire it).

The DHARMA Initiative was founded to find a way to change the values in the Valenzetti equation, which predicted the end of humanity. The Island was chosen because of its unique properties which also made it hard to find.

Hanso is still alive as of 2005 and still very wealthy.


You do have to wonder why the ledger is up for sale in 1996. I can't imagine that Alvar Hanso would want to sell it and risk giving away info about the Island.

Does anyone have a link to the part of the episode when Richard meets up with Little Ben? (the episode where he was supposedly dressed like a pirate) Thanks a lot..I don't remember exactly how he looked.

Also...are people saying that Richard was ON the Black Rock back in the 1800s or that he was one of the pirates that found the ledger (written by someone else) on the boat? Or was he a pirate who wrote the book about finding the Black Rock?

Thanks for help! I love this show but it gets confusing sometimes. Some clarification would be awesome.

Darn! i wanted to be the first to post this theory....I'll make it more certain:

RICHARD ALPERT WAS THE PIRATE THAT FOUND THE LEDGER, AND SOLD IT TO TOVARD HANSO.
We do not know who the 1st mate was, it may not be important.

Everyone else has been skipping around this:
i_fly_qantas said:
Found in the artifacts of pirates in Madagascar seven years after the Black Rock was lost.
Journal wasn't being sold by Hanso - the auctioneer said it was found in the hands of pirates (off Madagascar,)

Remember that the BR, per Locke, was "a mining ship, out of Mozambique". That is across the channel from Madagascar. That area is perhaps where the ship disappear from, then it ended up on Lostia (like how the drug plane left Africa, but ended up there)

Widmore Construction is believed to have been the Co. that built all those hatches for Dharma way back when. So Widmore would have known about it all along, but can't find it on his own anymore.

It's being said that Alvar Hanso was in the bidding group. Question to me is, if he knew it's true importance, (and the Islands) why would he stop bidding and let Widmore get it? It would be worth millions, wouldn't it?