Anyone else noticed the parallels between Desmond and Billy Pilgrim?

edit:

"...this will unstick Heloise in time, just like you"

see

Anyone else noticed the parallels between Desmond and Billy Pilgrim?

edit:

"...this will unstick Heloise in time, just like you"

see

nice Beema! When he said that I was like, um, I just read that...how did they know that. I have NO idea what that means or how Billy Pilgrim is. Mind elaborating?

DP

From the beginning of the episode I was thinking about Slaughterhouse Five by Kurt Vonnegut. and then when Daniel said "unstuck in time" it sealed the deal. thats a direct recurring line from the book.

any ideas?

Wow. Des is Billy Pilgrim from Vonnegut's "Slaughterhouse Five". The even used the word "unstuck" to describe his dilemma in time. This episode blew me away. Need to sit back and think about it a while.

nice Beema! When he said that I was like, um, I just read that...how did they know that. I have NO idea what that means or how Billy Pilgrim is. Mind elaborating?

DP


yeah sorry
Billy Pilgrim is the protagonist in the famous Kurt Vonnegut novel Slaughterhouse Five. He becomes "unstuck" in time, and jumps back and forth into different periods in his own life. This is possibly a result of him going through a traumatic experience (the book is also about the traumas of war and the firebombing of Dresden, Germany). The book also explores free will vs. fate (another big theme in Lost), so I'm pretty sure there was an intentional reference here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slaughterhouse_five for a decent overview

Can I mention that the phrase "unstuck in time" also has a connection to one of the other Lost cast? There is an episode (2-parter) of Babylon 5 called World Without End that involves at least one of the characters getting unstuck in time (that phrase is used). Mira Furlan (Danielle) was one of the stars of Babylon 5. :)

I haven't read it, but here's the summary from Wiki,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slaughterhouse-Five
Sounds like there are some similarities.

I haven't read it, but here's the summary from Wiki,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slaughterhouse-Five
Sounds like there are some similarities.

'Similarities' Crap. They're on it. All we need now is Des waking up in a pool after his dad threw him in a pool to make him swim the 'man' way, just like Billy Pilgrim.

Oh, crap again, we've already done that one with Charlie and his Dad at the 'Butlins' in 'Greatest Hits'. Can it be?

...hence Charlie being "Dead, but here" in TBotE. I think he's having his own Billy Pilgrim experience now. :)

...hence Charlie being "Dead, but here" in TBotE. I think he's having his own Billy Pilgrim experience now. :)

Interesting. Perhaps as an extension of Billy (who only had living time trips). Now we have time trips beyond the grave. Dead people can time trip too. New Thread.

...hence Charlie being "Dead, but here" in TBotE. I think he's having his own Billy Pilgrim experience now. :)

I was thinking about Charlie too, If consciouness is in essance your soul, why couldn't you "time trip" if you were dead? If there was something on/about the Island that allowed you to. Does Consciouness ever died? This show is getting really mind blowing:eek2: :eek2: :eek2: !

Slaughterhouse 5 is one of my fave flicks, and this episode is my fave of the season so far. So all those future visions that Desmond has been having were time trips ? And will they continue now that he has found his constant?

This takes me back to one of the scenes where Ben (as a boy) first met Richard and was telling him about his mother. Richard asked if she had died on the island, but when he heard that she had died on the main land it was kind of like, too bad.

Catch 22 was an extension of Slaughterhouse 5. Yosarian was unstuck too?...

Yosarian was a time traveler too. I say this in connection with Slaughterhouse 5.
This may explain Whispers as dead people too.

My dad actually brought up Slaughterhouse 5 when I showed him "Flashes Before Your Eyes". When they used the exact phrase "unstuck in time", it sealed it for me as well.

In case no one has posted this, this episode is remarkable like Vonnegut's SH5--the first line "Billy Pilgrim has become unstuck in time." One of the crew was named Billy. Faraday said he was trying to unstick the mouse. I'm not sure how Billy Pilgrim became unstuck in time--I'll have to look it up.

One of Desmond's soldiers friends was named Billy. I kept thinking maybe his last name is Pilgrim.

The Tralmafadorians were the aliens in Slaughterouse Five that taught Billy Pilgrim about the relation between the world and time travel. Interestingly, all Tralmafadorians only have one eye - very Lost-esque.

Catch 22 was an extension of Slaughterhouse 5. Yosarian was unstuck too?...

Yosarian, and poor Billy Pilgrim, were so lost in time. I feel so sorry for Des.

Have you ever had to travel "too far" for love?

I have.

Well I brought this up in another thread but it seems relevant here as well.. What if you died your "conciousness or soul" was time shifted, or out of phase with the real world. Miles has a gift to be able to communicate with these people, and with Daniels announcement that time on the island is not "the same perception" as it is off the island, it may explain the whispers on the island.

My hubster noted during the dialog that "stuck in time" was directly from Vonnegut's Slaughterhouse Five. He noted the similarities between Desmond and Pilgrim. It was a wonderful nod to Vonnegut who died in 2007.

Here is the wiki for the book, if anyone would like to see the synopsis of the book:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slaughterhouse-Five

Been meaning to read this for a while so this thread has given me incentive to go and buy it.

Yosarian was a time traveler too. I say this in connection with Slaughterhouse 5.
This may explain Whispers as dead people too.

OK, so what's the connection between Yossarian/Catch 22 and Billy Pilgrim/Slaighterhouse Five? Your point isn't obvious to me.

Ok I went out and purchased this book yesterday (and I'm loving it so far). This relates slightly to a thread I posted in general theories but it also applies here.

I am of the opinion that Daniel is basically suffering (or has suffered) flashes similar to Desmond. There is one passage in the book that just glared out at me

"He was under Doctors orders to take a nap every day. The doctor hoped this would relieve a complaint that Billy had: Every so often, for no apparent reason, Billy Pilgrim would find himself weeping."

:eek2:

Damn, I forgot abou the weeping part.
There are a number of parallels with plotlines on Lost: there's a part where Billy is in a cage with a female in the hope that they will mate (like Sawyer and Kate in Othersville), he does things because he feels he has to since our path is already set at birth we just can't see it (unlike the aliens).
He is the only survivor in a plane crash.

Its a great book, I only got around to reading it last week.

i don't know the book or movie but on lostpedia they mention it too, and after reading a few articles about the book and the movie it seems definitly a reference the scenarists would use to me.

Another book i have to read...

I'll definitely be getting hold of this book, it sounds very cool. Looking at the Wiki article the other obvious connection is "Free will", as has already been mentioned here, but also :

The novel uses certain phrases repetitively, such as "so it goes"—which, used whenever death or dying is mentioned, serves to downplay mortality, making it routine and even humorous.


The Others seem okay with death, and "See you on the other side" could be their version of "So it goes".

And another connection is that Des, like Billy, appears to know when he's going to die too.

Some of us discussed Slaughterhouse Five last year. Here is the link.
http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=69351&highlight=deeannek

I just read this part

"He said that everything there is to know about life was in The Brothers Karamazov"

Also Billy is put on display underneath a geodesic dome.

This is getting quite silly now. Just read this:

"Can't you keep the pilot from pressing the button?
'He has always pressed it, and always will. We always let him and we always will let him.The moment is structured that way"

I've not read the book, but I watched the film last night. Great film, some connections may not be obvious from the book but visually they jump out, like the plane after the crash broken into 3 sections almost identical to 815 on the ocean floor, the dome, and the way Billy collapsed face first onto the table when he shifted in time just like Minkowski. I'll have to watch it again i know there was more.

Suuuuuuch a great book! And exactly what I thought of in this episode. Readitreaditreadit!!!

I also thought of Vonnegut while watching this past episode. I was thinking the island may be stuck in a chronosynclastic infundibulum like in the novel The Sirens of Titan, my favorite Vonnegut book.

One of my all time favorite writers, books, and the movie wasn't bad either. Vonnegut wasn't that interested in explaining why Pilgrim became unstuck in time. He mostly used it to explain the overblown concept of history as a series of events. The aliens from Tralfalmadore, or wherever, explain time as viewing a mountain range. It only makes sense when you see it from a distance. Maybe next week Lost will introduce a new character named Lazarro who ends up shooting Ben.

I'm late to the party on this thread, but this is one of my favorite books EVER, and the connections are many.

I did want to ask if anyone had read "The Time Traveler's Wife." I enjoyed that one as well, and as I recall, the hero did appear to the his wife after he had died in her timeline. Don't want to spoil the book if you haven't read it....not sure I need to spoiler font, but wanted to be safe....


How does that relate to Charlie?

One of the main challenges when analyzing a good work of fiction (especially books written in the sixties) is to correctly identify the character who represents the "voice of reason". A great writer will artfully disguise this character so that the "hidden meaning" in the book is not recognizable at surface level. Its what gives a story depth and sophistication.

Lost does a wonderful job of hiding the voice of reason, as does Slaughterhouse Five. I thought Id delve into this books existentialist philosophy as it pertains to Lost in order to bring to light some of the subtle clues the writers have given us.

The entire premise behind any existentialist story is predicated on the fact that the protagonist exists in an "absurd" world. "Absurdity" has a special meaning in both Slaughterhouse Five and Lost since both of these worlds are exaggeratedly absurd (a magical island and a fire-bombed City). According to Existentialist philosophy, the only way to rise above the world's absurdity is for each individual to create meaning and essence in their life. All characters in the story that simply adapt to the absurdity of the world are in essence absurd themselves. This can be said of most of the main characters on Lost - Jack, Kate, Sawyer, Sayid, Claire, Sun, Jin etc

On the other hand, the character who strives to create his own truth and meaning in an absurd world is usually the voice of reason. In Slaughterhouse Five, the secret voice of reason is not Lazarro, Edgar, Weary or even Billy Pilgrim. These characters try to come to terms with the absurdity of the world and live by its rules. In fact, the true voice of reason in an absurd world is that person who seems crazy and unwilling to adapt to its absurdity. In Slaughterhouse Five, that character is Kilgore Trout - the “crazy” writer who is institutionalized. Most readers (and characters) casually dismiss Kilgore's ramblings as crazy - but in fact his point of view actually represents the deeper meaning that Vonnegut is trying to deliver. Its a brilliant piece of story-telling by Vonnegut

Likewise, in Lost, the "voice of reason" is most likely the character who refuses to comply with “rational” thought and instead looks to make his own truth in an absurd world. That person undoubtedly is John Locke. Since he arrived on the island, Locke's actions can be described as crazy, irational, selfish - even annoying. In a word, his behavior has been nothing short of absurd. As viewers of the show, we see Locke as an annoyance - a character who repeatedly undermines the Losties attempts to escape the island. However, if Im correct, we will soon see that Lock'es ridiculous behavior will not only be justified, but will serve as the ultimate truth for understanding the island. The irony and brilliance of this is that we the viewers (not to mention the other characters) have repeatedly dismissed Lockes point of view as ridiculous - a truly masterful job by the show's creative team.

In the "Locke vs Jack" battle for control, we all intuitively gravitate towards Jack. But ultimately, its going to be Locke's actions, and words, that are going to bring to light the ultimate truth about the island.

One of the main challenges when analyzing a good work of fiction (especially books written in the sixties) is to correctly identify the character who represents the "voice of reason". A great writer will artfully disguise this character so that the "hidden meaning" in the book is not recognizable at surface level. Its what gives a story depth and sophistication...

...In the "Locke vs Jack" battle for control, we all intuitively gravitate towards Jack. But ultimately, its going to be Locke's actions, and words, that are going to bring to light the ultimate truth about the island.

Visual, tremendous observation and insight. Enjoyed your analysis.

I've never gravitated towards Jack. Jack is relatively easy to predict and figure out. I think the mysteries Jack encounters he tries to scientifically process and then just gives up and dismisses them.

I have gravitated towards Locke and really think most viewers who are involved in the 'island as a character' motif identify with Locke because the see that Locke will lead them to the answers.

I don't think this is hidden, nor does it need to be. This element is well developed in a complex, learning (John, your evolving), growing character. Locke is the only survivor truely learning from the island. (Ben has, but is not a survivor and not 'good'. Ben may have goals that are good and correct but his methods destroy. Ends justify means.)

What other characters are developing as a result of the island? Everyone else is developing as a result of being lost. (I do think that Sawyer, believe it or not, is actually just beginning to see this, like an infant first standing on his own.) The rest want to be un-lost. Locke wants to stay lost. The others are just sheep following a shepherd, but it ain't Jack Shepherd.

Locke is your voice (man) of reason that brings meaning to LOST.

Thank you for getting me thinking about this.

Visual, tremendous observation and insight. Enjoyed your analysis.

I've never gravitated towards Jack. Jack is relatively easy to predict and figure out. I think the mysteries Jack encounters he tries to scientifically process and then just gives up and dismisses them.

I have gravitated towards Locke and really think most viewers who are involved in the 'island as a character' motif identify with Locke because the see that Locke will lead them to the answers.

I don't think this is hidden, nor does it need to be. This element is well developed in a complex, learning (John, your evolving), growing character. Locke is the only survivor truely learning from the island. (Ben has, but is not a survivor and not 'good'. Ben may have goals that are good and correct but his methods destroy. Ends justify means.)

What other characters are developing as a result of the island? Everyone else is developing as a result of being lost. (I do think that Sawyer, believe it or not, is actually just beginning to see this, like an infant first standing on his own.) The rest want to be un-lost. Locke wants to stay lost. The others are just sheep following a shepherd, but it ain't Jack Shepherd.

Locke is your voice (man) of reason that brings meaning to LOST.

Thank you for getting me thinking about this.

Thanks man. I guess all Im saying is that Lockes actions often seem haphhazard and are therefore difficult for both the viewers and the characters to comprehend. When he kills Naomi at the end of last season, for example, most viewers' (not to Jack and Company) first reaction was one of anger and confusion - not solidarity with his actions. This is what I mean by "hidden" reason.