What do you guys think? Could Charlie have become unstuck?

I put up a post asking the same thing but people seem tho think that she was talking about when she was talking to him while he was in The Looking Glass. I'm not totally convinced that's what she meant. I don't have a concrete explanation as to what the alternative would be but I think there was something strange about the timing. I had a fleeting thought that she talked to Charlie in the past and that, 3 yrs ago, is what prompted to start looking for Desmond and the island, but I guess I am in the minority.

I'm not sure about that, especially since Darlton said in the podcast that they attributed the timing of that scene to penny having an autodialer that alerted her when it finally made a connection.

But, I do think that maybe Charlie is moving through time somehow -- at least, I hope so!

Yes, after this episode, I believe Charlie is unstuck in time. And here's why:

Charlie was in close proximity of the hatch when it imploded. He would have received the same large dose of electromagnetic radiation as the others. The only reason he may not have become unstuck then like Desmond was because if you recall, the day before that event, he injected himself with the vaccine. I think we now know what the vaccine is. It is given to the Dharma workers in the Swan station because they are exposed daily to high levels of electromagnetism. Like antiradiation meds, and it prevents them from becoming unstuck in time.

Now nine days later and that drug wears off. Charlie still has the exposure, but not as severe effects. He might only become unstuck under certain conditions and certain triggers. Maybe his drowning in the station was a trigger. His consciousness could have become unstuck just before he died, leaving it to roam free. He could then travel to any point in the past (not the future as yet since he's dead, and he can't return to his dead body on the island). This is the meaning of dead but also here.

So say Charlie travelled to a point in his past. He then lives his life with all of the memories of island Charlie, essentially like Desmond does when he time travels, but he can't go anywhere else. He never gets on flight 815. One day, he gets a call from Penny saying she spoke to him on the island, has been researching and has found that he is living in London. Charlie then becomes part of the team who are trying to find the island because Charlie remembers Claire and Aaron. This could lead them to Donovan, who could lead them to Dan at Oxford who could explain about constants.

This could explain why Charlie came to see Hurley and why he needed to speak with him. Hurley could be Charlie's constant in both places. It can't be Claire, because we don't know where Claire is in the future, she is likely still on the island, so Charlie has to find Hurley to act as his anchor. For Penny, he is trying to get the O6 to help get back to the island.

I love this and I SO hope Charlie is unstuck in time.

I think he's dead. Sorry. He never passed through "the barrier."

I put up a post asking the same thing but people seem tho think that she was talking about when she was talking to him while he was in The Looking Glass. I'm not totally convinced that's what she meant. I don't have a concrete explanation as to what the alternative would be but I think there was something strange about the timing. I had a fleeting thought that she talked to Charlie in the past and that, 3 yrs ago, is what prompted to start looking for Desmond and the island, but I guess I am in the minority.

I think what prompted Pen’s search was Desmond going missing on the boat race that her father was sponsoring. We know that they had contact before that race from the stadium scene just before Desmond meets Jack. So she would have been aware he was entered in the race and she was aware, at that time, that he still loved her. When Pen mentioned Charlie I knew immediately it was in reference to the underwater station. I also figured that that would bring everything back to Desmond and station him into the present.

I think he's dead. Sorry. He never passed through "the barrier."

The barrier was just a trigger, a blast of electromagnetism caused by the thunderhead. Desmond was time jumping on the island too. We don't know what triggers it. It was happenig to Minkowski on the ship and he never went through the barrier either.

I haven't seen the episode yet, but from the Sneak Peak I thought Desmonds "I'm not here," "How am I here?", "I'm not supposed to be here," etc strongly echoed Hurley & Charlie's "You're not here", "I am here", "I'm dead but I'm also here". Both Hurley and Desmond's episodes are Darlton scripted and there is a lot of emphasise on the word "here" so I think there is a good chance they are linked. Obviously there is some sort of Desmond/Charlie connection, not just with the flashes, but the hatch implosion and the vaccine.

the way i see it....penny's reference is to the conversation with charlie on the boat. charlie died when he drowned in the swan. when he saw hurley it was a "hallucination" of sorts. Because after Hurley talked to Charlie, he just disappeared so he was never actually there in the first place. Charlie flat out says that he is dead. Hurley has a history of mental disease, as we know, since it is not his first time in the mental institution. Hurley seeing Charlie is sort of like when he sawDave on the island in the earlier episodes. Both were figments of his "imagination."

Pacejunkie, Charlie's been unstuck for a long time. I wonder if he's Ben's man on the boat?

But then are you saying that Minkowski, who is dead on the freighter, is still unstuck in time and roaming around some where? Because island charlie is very dead

Pacejunkie, Charlie's been unstuck for a long time. I wonder if he's Ben's man on the boat?

No, I don't think so, mainly because I have other ideas as to who that is. ;)

But then are you saying that Minkowski, who is dead on the freighter, is still unstuck in time and roaming around some where? Because island charlie is very dead

Yes, island Charlie is dead, but it takes a long time to die in icy cold water. Just ask Charlotte Malkin, who shares his name, drowned and came back. Minkowski died instantly and likely had no time to jump out. Charlie had plenty of time and the act of dying itself could have acted as a trigger. He had time for his consciousness to leave his dying body.

Yes, island Charlie is dead, but it takes a long time to die in icy cold water. Just ask Charlotte Malkin, who shares his name, drowned and came back. Minkowski died instantly and likely had no time to jump out. Charlie had plenty of time and the act of dying itself could have acted as a trigger. He had time for his consciousness to leave his dying body.

Dying in the Water has Special consequences, yes yes. Dying from a Banyan Tree also had Special consequences.

Go back to Fire+Water. If Charlie didn't know how to swim, what would have really happened had he gone out to save Aaron? What visions might he have had?

I'm interested in the possible significance of Charlie being the only one who took the vaccine. It would mean he was the only one protected against the electromagnitism, right? Remember when Charlie came back and Claire was telling him about the noise and the sky turning purple and Charlie said "Nothing happened" Did the vaccine cause Charlie to not even rejester the discharge?

In the same way that Charlie is unique in being the only one vaccinated, following the blast Charlie is singled out again through Desmond's visions. There may be a connection there. And whether Charlie is dead or living (possibly both) I think there is a greater mystery to be revealed about his "fate". I don't think all is quite what it seems.

the way i see it....penny's reference is to the conversation with charlie on the boat. charlie died when he drowned in the swan. when he saw hurley it was a "hallucination" of sorts. Because after Hurley talked to Charlie, he just disappeared so he was never actually there in the first place. Charlie flat out says that he is dead. Hurley has a history of mental disease, as we know, since it is not his first time in the mental institution. Hurley seeing Charlie is sort of like when he sawDave on the island in the earlier episodes. Both were figments of his "imagination."
The other inmate sees Charlie too.

Dying in the Water has Special consequences, yes yes. Dying from a Banyan Tree also had Special consequences.

OMG I didn't think about that. Death by hanging is also a slow slow death. It is similar to drowning in that your brain is slowly deprived of oxygen. Could the same thing have happened to Charlie then when he appeared to be gone and then suddenly came back to life?

So, does this mean that Eko could also be time-traveling. Will he pop up as well?

I can't remember...when the hatch exploded, where was Locke?

Locke may be doing it as well. The gunshot to the gut would have been a slow death. It could explain how he survived and saw TallerGhost!Walt.

Eko may just have died, since he was killed almost instantly. It seems connected with the slow death of oxygen deprivation, asphyxiation, drowning, bleeding to death.

When Charlie dies at the Banyan Tree... he is doing it deliberately, in order to Save Claire. Charlie dies with Love in his heart. The halo of vines around his head is more than symbolic... it's archetypal.

When Charlie dies at sea, saving Aaron... he dies with Love in his heart.

When Charlie dies in the Looking Glass, to Save Aaron and Claire... Love in his Heart.

When Charlie appears in Hurley's FF... the FF is happening when Hurley has Love in his Heart, grief and love shared with Claire.

Charlie is dead.

Once you're dead you can't just show up alive again in the future as a living breathing person!

Maybe (in Lost) there is a way to show up in the present/future in a form other than "someone's imagination", but you are still DEAD and not "time-traveling" like Desmond.

Yes, after this episode, I believe Charlie is unstuck in time. And here's why:

Charlie was in close proximity of the hatch when it imploded. He would have received the same large dose of electromagnetic radiation as the others. The only reason he may not have become unstuck then like Desmond was because if you recall, the day before that event, he injected himself with the vaccine. I think we now know what the vaccine is. It is given to the Dharma workers in the Swan station because they are exposed daily to high levels of electromagnetism. Like antiradiation meds, and it prevents them from becoming unstuck in time.

Now nine days later and that drug wears off. Charlie still has the exposure, but not as severe effects. He might only become unstuck under certain conditions and certain triggers. Maybe his drowning in the station was a trigger. His consciousness could have become unstuck just before he died, leaving it to roam free. He could then travel to any point in the past (not the future as yet since he's dead, and he can't return to his dead body on the island). This is the meaning of dead but also here.

So say Charlie travelled to a point in his past. He then lives his life with all of the memories of island Charlie, essentially like Desmond does when he time travels, but he can't go anywhere else. He never gets on flight 815. One day, he gets a call from Penny saying she spoke to him on the island, has been researching and has found that he is living in London. Charlie then becomes part of the team who are trying to find the island because Charlie remembers Claire and Aaron. This could lead them to Donovan, who could lead them to Dan at Oxford who could explain about constants.

This could explain why Charlie came to see Hurley and why he needed to speak with him. Hurley could be Charlie's constant in both places. It can't be Claire, because we don't know where Claire is in the future, she is likely still on the island, so Charlie has to find Hurley to act as his anchor. For Penny, he is trying to get the O6 to help get back to the island.

I love this and I SO hope Charlie is unstuck in time.

Well explained PJ! Here's to Charlie's "being" still floating around out there!

Another thought - is Christian Shepard time-tripping as well (as Charlie may be)?

Charlie is dead.

Once you're dead you can't just show up alive again in the future as a living breathing person!

Maybe (in Lost) there is a way to show up in the present/future in a form other than "someone's imagination", but you are still DEAD and not "time-traveling" like Desmond.

Perhaps if your body is dead in the future, your past conscience can enter your constant's mind when you forward time travel. This is why Hurley can see Charley.

Both time hoppers (Des and Minkowski) are in a state where their physical bodies are in the same place and they seem to be mentally jumping back and forth, hence they "pass out" when they hop to the past/future. Seems different then Charlie just showing up to see Hurley. Even though the other patient tells Hurley someone is there to see him, it might not have been Charlie since you can see another person standing in the background... right? How could Charlie be hopping if at some point his physical body has died?

Charlie is dead.

Once you're dead you can't just show up alive again in the future as a living breathing person!

Maybe (in Lost) there is a way to show up in the present/future in a form other than "someone's imagination", but you are still DEAD and not "time-traveling" like Desmond.

No, you're not understanding me. I didn't say Charlie time travelled directly to the future and met Hurley. He travelled to the past where he existed. But since his island body was dead, Charlie stayed in the past until time went by and his past became his present and then the "future" that we see. He lived out those months or years off the island. To put it another way, when Charlie died on the island, his pre-island self suddenly gained island!Charlie's memories, just like Desmond in the military did. The only difference was Desmond had a body on the boat to go back to, Charlie didn't.

How could Charlie be hopping if at some point his physical body has died?

I don't have the answer to that yet, but I don't think Charlie just disappeared. But I don't think one mystery blows all of this just because we don't understand it yet.

Charlie is dead some times people are written off the show. He never crossed the barrier so I don't even know why this is a discussion. She was obviously referencing their conversation in TLG. Sometimes things are just that simplistic:)

I guess Charlie did say I'm dead, but I'm also here? maybe their is something.

No, you're not understanding me. I didn't say Charlie time travelled directly to the future and met Hurley. He travelled to the past where he existed. But since his island body was dead, Charlie stayed in the past until time went by and his past became his present and then the "future" that we see. He lived out those months or years off the island.

okay, pacejunkie, you're making my head hurt! But, your theory could explain why future Charlie is all clean and spiffy looking.

I think I remember a recent podcast where Darlton says or hints that Charlie is in fact dead and Hurley is just imagining him.

How could Charlie be hopping if at some point his physical body has died?

I don't have the answer to that yet, but I don't think Charlie just disappeared. But I don't think one mystery blows all of this just because we don't understand it yet.

The guy on the boat that died said something along the lines of "I can't get back" - I took it to be that his consciousness couldn't make it back to the present body so that body dies leaving his present consiousness in his old body in the past.

With that stand point the present consciousness becomes trapped in the past body with no present day body to return to. So Charlie could very well have lived out a different life.

It still doesn't explain why Charlie just disappeared with Hurley but then again from Desmonds point of view wouldn't Sayid have just disappeared from Desmonds view when he time tripped to the past.

Maybe the oceanic 6 are tripping(time traveling whatever) themselves.Afterall that "I can't get back" eerily reminded me of Jack's "We have to go back" from his FF.

Daniel said people are affected differently depending on different factors. Desmond was affected immediately (he was at ground zero during the hatch explosion) whereas it may take time for the oceanic 6 to be affected(since their exposure would have been to a less degree).

I think I remember a recent podcast where Darlton says or hints that Charlie is in fact dead and Hurley is just imagining him.

Don't know anything about a podcast but I thought there was a spoiler in the spoiler section that kinda hinted around that Dave wasn't Hurley's imagination. Since there was such similarities between Dave and Charlie's visitation it my be a hint that Charlie is indeed real.

okay, pacejunkie, you're making my head hurt! But, your theory could explain why future Charlie is all clean and spiffy looking.

It explains why Charlie looked rock star fabulous, not at all as Hurley remembered him, and yet Charlie knew who he was.

I think I remember a recent podcast where Darlton says or hints that Charlie is in fact dead and Hurley is just imagining him.

No you don't. They have confirmed only that Charlie died in that station, which he did. They have never stated that Hurley imagined him. In fact, the facts go against this, since Hurley would have imagined a Charlie that he knew, with long hair and scruffy, not the Charlie that we saw.
100%

The guy on the boat that died said something along the lines of "I can't get back" - I took it to be that his consciousness couldn't make it back to the present body so that body dies leaving his present consiousness in his old body in the past.

With that stand point the present consciousness becomes trapped in the past body with no present day body to return to. So Charlie could very well have lived out a different life.



That's it Michelle, thanks. And good pickup on the "I can't get back" thing. That was what I suspected and Minkowski's words back that up. So maybe he did do the same thing. He died on the boat and can't come back, and his consciousness is somewhere else in time.

Only fools are enslaved by time and space. :)

okay, I don't know if this is the thread to post this, so I may try to find another... but all this Charlie talk has me thinking back to Desmond predicting Charlie's death - was he traveling to the future then!?!

No you don't. They have confirmed only that Charlie died in that station, which he did. They have never stated that Hurley imagined him. In fact, the facts go against this, since Hurley would have imagined a Charlie that he knew, with long hair and scruffy, not the Charlie that we saw.
100%

Exactly. Plus, the other patient saw Charlie standing there, watching Hurley.

okay, I don't know if this is the thread to post this, so I may try to find another... but all this Charlie talk has me thinking back to Desmond predicting Charlie's death - was he traveling to the future then!?!

Or perhaps future Desmond was in Island Desmond's body. Maybe on the island they time travel safely without danger of death.

Or, because it's post-contant Desmond who would be jumping into save-Charlie Desmond's body, there would be no threat of death.

I want to stop scrambling my brains over this. I'll just wait for the bloody answers. Since the "dead but here" Charlie was introduced in ep1 of S4 I hope that maybe he'll be explained by the end of S4.

My gut feeling is that Charlie's condition is not the same as Desmonds, but it is very very closely related to Desmond's condition. Possibly Charlie has an abstract form with different rules..?

Desmond travels psychically in time, but he doesn't actually travel in space. His body remains where it is in a catatonic state. But haven't Darlton said S4 is gonna deal with time AND space travel? Maybe Desmond is the time traveller and Charlie is the space traveller? Maybe Charlie teleported when Hurley had his eyes shut.

Just wondering...could "Adam and Eve" be remains of two of our Losties who went through time and didn't make it back?

If Charlie at some point got "unstuck" in time into the future, wouldn't we have seen Charlie at some point saying "Woah I was just in the future off the island!!! And I saw Hurley and he was in a mental institution!" We didn't see that though. I think Charlie was either a manifestation of some sort (like the ones on the island) or part of Hurley's imagination.

If Charlie at some point got "unstuck" in time into the future, wouldn't we have seen Charlie at some point saying "Woah I was just in the future off the island!!! And I saw Hurley and he was in a mental institution!" We didn't see that though. I think Charlie was either a manifestation of some sort (like the ones on the island) or part of Hurley's imagination.

No, again, I'll restate what I said above. Charlie took the vaccine that inhibited time travel on the island. Without some trigger afterwards, he would not have gone anywhere. The drowning acted as the trigger. Charlie's consciousness travelled to the past, not the future, but he was then stuck like Minkowski when his island body died and he could not get back. So there was no travelling to the future, returning to the island to talk about it. He didn't do it until he died.

No, again, I'll restate what I said above. Charlie took the vaccine that inhibited time travel on the island. Without some trigger afterwards, he would not have gone anywhere. The drowning acted as the trigger. Charlie's consciousness travelled to the past, not the future, but he was then stuck like Minkowski when his island body died and he could not get back. So there was no travelling to the future, returning to the island to talk about it. He didn't do it until he died.

There is no way you can state this as fact and tell me "No" to my opinion. This can only be your speculation or opinion, since we have no idea yet what the vaccine actually does.

OMG I didn't think about that. Death by hanging is also a slow slow death. It is similar to drowning in that your brain is slowly deprived of oxygen. Could the same thing have happened to Charlie then when he appeared to be gone and then suddenly came back to life?

Actually death by hanging is supposed to be a fairly quick death when executed (pun intended) properly.

The person actually dies from having his neck broken and not by strangulation.

Although the old westerns always show the bad guy (typically dressed in black) squirming around for several seconds.

Actually death by hanging is supposed to be a fairly quick death when executed (pun intended) properly.

The person actually dies from having his neck broken and not by strangulation.


A broken neck is a quick death but Charlie's neck didn't break probably because he wasn't dropped from a height. Anyway, he asphyxiated slowly.

There is no way you can state this as fact and tell me "No" to my opinion. This can only be your speculation or opinion, since we have no idea yet what the vaccine actually does.

I wasn't stating no to your opinion. I was saying no, you misunderstood my theory and according to it, your assumptions would not come to pass. No one's saying you have to agree with it, we were just discussing it. Of course it's speculation. That's what we're all doing here. But your speculation is inconsistent with mine and that's what I was pointing out, not who's right and who's wrong.

I wasn't stating no to your opinion. I was saying no, you misunderstood my theory and according to it, your assumptions would not come to pass. No one's saying you have to agree with it, we were just discussing it. Of course it's speculation. That's what we're all doing here. But your speculation is inconsistent with mine and that's what I was pointing out, not who's right and who's wrong.

Well I was not responding to your theory, as I did not quote it. I was just responding to other speculation that was going on in the thread, mainly the starter of the thread.

Well I was not responding to your theory, as I did not quote it. I was just responding to other speculation that was going on in the thread, mainly the starter of the thread.

My mistake then. :)

Pace, I'm not sure how this fits in, (or if it does), but when Desmond was minding the hatch daily he was also taking the "vaccine". So is that perhaps why he didn't experience any of these time/mind traveling things until after the hatch imploded?
I tell ya, I have been so boggled since last night its hard to wrap my head around anything that I saw other than.....Holy Crap! I love Desmond episodes!
I like your idea about Charlie and I agree that it would explain the "I'm dead but I'm also here" line of Charlies. I've never been a big fan of the, it was just a Hurley hallucination, idea. To get SOMETHING straight in my head here, you're saying that as he was dying in the water after telling Desmond it was not Pennys boat, his 2004 consciousness traveled back somewhere undetermined and now that past Charlie has 2004 Charlies memories......eerrr....right??! So would 2004 consciousness just take over past Charlie?

My mistake then. :)

Actually I only skimmed over your post. Now that I read it, I do like your theory about the vaccine and what it was meant to do. Since Aaron got the vaccine though and he gets off the island - if he does it by crossing the barrier, wouldn't he possibly experience side effects as well? Does that mean Kate has to be his constant? Hmm....

I still don't think I'd agree with you about Charlie though. With what we've seen from Desmond, his conciousness travels to a past or future self. There is no future self for Charlie's conciousness to travel to. And I think he did appear physically somehow in Hurley's FF because the other patient saw him as well. And doesn't Hurley tell Jack that "It" wants them back? He doesn't say that he saw Charlie and Charlie said they needed to go back. To me that means that The Island is somehow playing with Hurley (through Charlie's appearance) and convincing him to go back to the island and that this is what Hurley believes. That Charlie trying to convince him to go back is really The Island trying to convince him to go back.

I'm wondering if TPTB are ever going to give us a concrete answer on the vaccine.

Speaking of psychic time/space travel when drowning...nobody has mentioned Charlotte Malkin yet! She drowned, travelled "between places", got a message from Yemi (who exists in some form on the island), then travelled back into her drowned body and woke up.

If Charlotte can drown and travel to the island, what is to say Charlie can't drown and travel off the island? Maybe the electromagnism isn't the only way to time/space travel? Maybe water is another way (Fire + Water?) Remember Charlie drowned in 'The Looking Glass', which is itself suggestive of a doorway between worlds, with water also being reflective, etc...

Wait, Charlotte traveled TO the island? I remember she had a message from Yemi but I don't remember much more than that. Shes the one that came to in the medical examiners office right?

I've got some good news for you, Pace.

Remember Eloise? The mouse that died? She must also have been "dead but here" in some future, to learn the maze. Daniel had not yet taught it to her when she died in the iteration we saw, but he must have at some point. English doesn't have enough tenses for this!

Did we see Charlie's eyes open at any point? The idea here is that when we see the eye opening motif, that person is waking into the past/future.

This theory is so far fetched, it's ridiculous. At some point, you have to be able to take things at face value. Charlie is dead. Period.

Pace, I'm not sure how this fits in, (or if it does), but when Desmond was minding the hatch daily he was also taking the "vaccine". So is that perhaps why he didn't experience any of these time/mind traveling things until after the hatch imploded?

I think that was the purpose of the vaccine but it had to be taken every nine days. At some point Desmond stopped taking it, because he told Claire when he returned that it was a waste of time and did nothing.

To get SOMETHING straight in my head here, you're saying that as he was dying in the water after telling Desmond it was not Pennys boat, his 2004 consciousness traveled back somewhere undetermined and now that past Charlie has 2004 Charlies memories......eerrr....right??! So would 2004 consciousness just take over past Charlie?

Yes. It would be just as though the 1996 Desmond we saw in FBYE but had the conscious memories of 2004 island Desmond (causing him to freak a little at Donovan and Charlie on the street), never got hit with the cricket bat and went back, but stayed there with all of his 2004 awareness in his 1996 body.

Actually I only skimmed over your post. Now that I read it, I do like your theory about the vaccine and what it was meant to do. Since Aaron got the vaccine though and he gets off the island - if he does it by crossing the barrier, wouldn't he possibly experience side effects as well? Does that mean Kate has to be his constant? Hmm....

We have no proof that Aaron ever had the vaccine. Claire was about to give it to him and Desmond said don't you're wasting your time. Even if she had already given it to him before, it only lasts nine days and we know she doesn't have any now. So no effect on Aaron.

I still don't think I'd agree with you about Charlie though. With what we've seen from Desmond, his conciousness travels to a past or future self. There is no future self for Charlie's conciousness to travel to.

You may need to scroll back a bit for my post explaining this but Charlie didn't (indeed as you say couldn't) travel to a future self from the Looking Glass. He instead had to have travelled back to the past and then got stuck there like Minkowski said "I can't get back" when he died. He would then live out his time off the island until it was that point in the future with Hurley that we saw. But he got there by going back not forward.

And I think he did appear physically somehow in Hurley's FF because the other patient saw him as well. And doesn't Hurley tell Jack that "It" wants them back? He doesn't say that he saw Charlie and Charlie said they needed to go back. To me that means that The Island is somehow playing with Hurley (through Charlie's appearance) and convincing him to go back to the island and that this is what Hurley believes. That Charlie trying to convince him to go back is really The Island trying to convince him to go back.

I do think that is what Hurley believes, but eventually he will learn that it really was Charlie as Charlie insisted. "I am here."

Speaking of psychic time/space travel when drowning...nobody has mentioned Charlotte Malkin yet! She drowned, travelled "between places", got a message from Yemi (who exists in some form on the island), then travelled back into her drowned body and woke up.

If Charlotte can drown and travel to the island, what is to say Charlie can't drown and travel off the island? Maybe the electromagnism isn't the only way to time/space travel? Maybe water is another way (Fire + Water?) Remember Charlie drowned in 'The Looking Glass', which is itself suggestive of a doorway between worlds, with water also being reflective, etc...

Good point. Well we know the brain gives off electrical impulses and water is a conductor of electricity. Anything's possible.

Speaking of psychic time/space travel when drowning...nobody has mentioned Charlotte Malkin yet! She drowned, travelled "between places", got a message from Yemi (who exists in some form on the island), then travelled back into her drowned body and woke up.

If Charlotte can drown and travel to the island, what is to say Charlie can't drown and travel off the island? Maybe the electromagnism isn't the only way to time/space travel? Maybe water is another way (Fire + Water?) Remember Charlie drowned in 'The Looking Glass', which is itself suggestive of a doorway between worlds, with water also being reflective, etc...

You are speculating then that the island is the "between place" that Charlotte traveled to? I could see her "between place" as being in limbo, but not the island. Sort of like how people have near-death experiences (or die and get brought back) and claim to have seen relatives, etc.

True, we know Charlotte saw Yemi, but we don't know where she saw him. But regardless, she travelled somewhere, spoke with him and then returned back into her seemingly dead body. Although I don't believe that Charlie will ever return to his dead body on the island, particularly since it is still underwater. I think like Minkowski said he is now stuck whereever he is.

You may need to scroll back a bit for my post explaining this but Charlie didn't (indeed as you say couldn't) travel to a future self from the Looking Glass. He instead had to have travelled back to the past and then got stuck there like Minkowski said "I can't get back" when he died. He would then live out his time off the island until it was that point in the future with Hurley that we saw. But he got there by going back not forward.

If that were the case, this would cause a paradox, correct? Charlie would have to remain off -island from before the crash until Hurley's FF and therefore he would never have traveled to the island in order for all this to happen. And TPTB have already said that there are is no paradox.

Do you ever watch "The Universe" on the History channel? They recently had an episode about unexplained mysteries - one of them being time travel. I liked some of the theories that were presented involving time travel and have heard some of them before. One of them explained the grandfather theory - If you went back in time and killed your grandfather, how could you ever exist to have done so? One theory that many scientists like is that if you were to travel back in time by bending time-space, you would actually be traveling to a parallel universe. In this parallel universe you can kill your grandfather and not cause a paradox because in the parallel universe you never do exist. Very interesting, but I don't believe it applies to LOST because I think I remember TPTB saying that there were no parallel universes involved.

I really like this unstuck time theory with Charlie.

But what about Walt? How is he older and is he Locke's constant?

You may need to scroll back a bit for my post explaining this but Charlie didn't (indeed as you say couldn't) travel to a future self from the Looking Glass. He instead had to have travelled back to the past and then got stuck there like Minkowski said "I can't get back" when he died. He would then live out his time off the island until it was that point in the future with Hurley that we saw. But he got there by going back not forward.

You know, I had kind of been thinking along these lines for a while, in that I thought Charlies inevitable death on the island was a course correction for the fact that Desmond changed the past and Charlie never got on the plane.

My problem with all this now is the line from last night (either Minikowski or Daniel, I can't remember) "You can't change the future."

If Charlie's unstuck consciousness ended up in the past with all his island memories, like Desmond did in FBYE, it seems like the universe would course correct to get him on the island, just like it did with Desmond.

I'm afraid at this point, that however TPTB explain all the time travel, there are going to be some obvious holes in it. Maybe afraid isn't the right word, because I think there are always holes when it comes to time travel in entertainment, and I'm fine with it. It just makes it harder to figure out because we don't know what are going to be the holes in the end.

I mean, for instance, someone earlier brought up Eloise. How did Eloise's consciousnes jump to the future (or her consciousness from the future jump to the past) if Eloise died before Daniel taught her the maze? The only possible way I can see this being explained is with multiple realities, which I thought TPTB had categorically ruled out (PLEASE correct me if I"m wrong).

Great theories and discussions! When I first read it, I had reservations because as we see it in this episode, it appears we cannot change the past - the present reflects previous time travels. Therefore, you would think that if Charlie's consciousness travel back in time, that he would still board flight 815 somehow, right? However, as we've seen with the rat, some alternate future can happen - the rat didn't end up learning that maze after-all. And like others mentioned, maybe that's why the universe was so fierce in trying to get Charlie killed - the universe doesn't like paradoxes.

If that were the case, this would cause a paradox, correct? Charlie would have to remain off -island from before he September 22, 2004 until Hurley's FF and therefore he would never have traveled to the island in order for all this to happen. And TPTB have already said that there are is no paradox.

They said no paradoxes but we have already seen paradoxes, the rat is just one. Everything Desmond was doing by going back in time and getting information and bringing it back to help him was a paradox. The truth is they can't avoid paradox, the only reason they said that was because they want you to know that there are no other timelines in the sense that the future they show you will be the future that happens and will not change. That does not apply to any past, present or future we haven't seen yet.

Charlie would have gotten stuck in the past with all of his island memories and therefore would not have taken flight 815. But there are not "two Charlie's" per se. There is only his past self with the consciousness of the future self that died. This is no more a paradox than Desmond traveling back to 1996 and telling his friend Donovan about the island, who may then have told Penny and thus Penny now knows where to look for him. Yet they've done that.

Do you ever watch "The Universe" on the History channel? They recently had an episode about unexplained mysteries - one of them being time travel. I liked some of the theories that were presented involving time travel and have heard some of them before. One of them explained the grandfather theory - If you went back in time and killed your grandfather, how could you ever exist to have done so? One theory that many scientists like is that if you were to travel back in time by bending time-space, you would actually be traveling to a parallel universe. In this parallel universe you can kill your grandfather and not cause a paradox because in the parallel universe you never do exist. Very interesting, but I don't believe it applies to LOST because I think I remember TPTB saying that there were no parallel universes involved.

Haven't seen it but the grandfather theory has been discussed on these boards. That's the kind of thing TPTB are talking about that they say won't happen.

This theory is so far fetched, it's ridiculous. At some point, you have to be able to take things at face value. Charlie is dead. Period.

Just because you think it is far fetched, doesn't make it so...all theories are welcomed for constructive debate...if you would like to let us know as to why this theory is far fetched, we would love to hear it.

If that were the case, this would cause a paradox, correct? Charlie would have to remain off -island from before the crash until Hurley's FF and therefore he would never have traveled to the island in order for all this to happen. And TPTB have already said that there are is no paradox.

Well if you pick apart what Damon says about paradoxs he says that paradoxes cannot happen in their singular timeline because the universe would "course correct" the paradox. Just look at this statement another way. Since Charlie's death was in fact inflicted by course correction one might argue that this is evidence of Charlie being a paradox.

Darlton could be saying there will be no paradoxes that aren't course corrected.

Meaning Charlie was a paradox = is now on his correct course.

*nose is bleeding*

The guy on the boat that died said something along the lines of "I can't get back" - I took it to be that his consciousness couldn't make it back to the present body so that body dies leaving his present consiousness in his old body in the past.

With that stand point the present consciousness becomes trapped in the past body with no present day body to return to. So Charlie could very well have lived out a different life.

Ah yes, that would make sense!
I just got the feeling that when Charlie appeared to Hurley, he "appeared".. like he was there then he wasn't. Like it was a hallucination. Just like when he saw Dave on the island? But noone was there?



Sorry..... seem to be having trouble displaying the quote properly....

You know, I had kind of been thinking along these lines for a while, in that I thought Charlies inevitable death on the island was a course correction for the fact that Desmond changed the past and Charlie never got on the plane.

My problem with all this now is the line from last night (either Minikowski or Daniel, I can't remember) "You can't change the future."

If Charlie's unstuck consciousness ended up in the past with all his island memories, like Desmond did in FBYE, it seems like the universe would course correct to get him on the island, just like it did with Desmond.

Not if that wasn't Charlie's destiny. Desmond had to go back because it was his destiny to push that button, according to the ring lady. Charlie may have a very different destiny. His destiny may be to stay off the island now so he can go back and help rescue everyone. Maybe travelling in this way was what he was supposed to do and Desmond was being used as a tool of fate to get him there. When Charlie did so, he was able to retain all his knowledge of the island but have it back in the real world where he could use it to accomplish the true goal -- the one he actually sacrificed himself for -- to rescue Claire and (reunite her with) Aaron.

Ok, here goes

1. Charlie is dead

2. If Charlie "time-warped" into his past self and never got on 815, this means he never landed on the island. Which means Hurley and EVERYONE never met him. Sooooo...yeah

3. I will agree that "Charlie" was not just imagined by Hurley b/c of the fact that his appearence was different. And, another reason I beleive he saw him, is b/c the specifically made it a point to have "Charlie" off camera when Hurley saw him by the ho ho's. That way we would ponder his "realness".

4. I put "Charlie" instead of Charlie b/c i do not beleive the "Charlie" we see is a true physical form. I don't think he was imagined either. Think of him as a "gaurdian angel". Kind of like Jack's dad (as we saw in the Missing Peices) sending Vincent to wake Jack up. As we see with Ben's mom when he is a child.

5. You radiation in the hatch + "vaccine" theory is flawed. SO many Losties were in that hatch and took no "vaccine". And if your going to say "oh, they weren't there when it imploded", then don't bother please. B/c according to your theory he was taking the "vaccine" b/c he was being exposed to radiation. Which means the implosion has nothing to do with it. Which means anyone who was in there was exposed to it. And none of them (but charlie) took this "vaccine". I say "vacine" b/c i still beleive it's a placebo...

6. Charlie is dead

Not if that wasn't Charlie's destiny. Desmond had to go back because it was his destiny to push that button, according to the ring lady. Charlie may have a very different destiny. His destiny may be to stay off the island now so he can go back and help rescue everyone. Maybe travelling in this way was what he was supposed to do and Desmond was being used as a tool of fate to get him there. When Charlie did so, he was able to retain all his knowledge of the island but have it back in the real world where he could use it to accomplish the true goal -- the one he actually sacrificed himself for -- to rescue Claire and (reunite her with) Aaron.
Would a knowledgeable Charlie explain why Malkin knew (and possibly others, like Sun's dad) about Oceanic 815 potentially crashing? If past Charlie knew, you'd have to explain why he didn't say anything and try to prevent the plane from flying. Maybe the presence of the losties on that island is very important to something happening in the outside world?

Two reasons why it can't be Charlie:

1) Daniel said you cannot change the future.
2) It is the consciousness that timejumps, not the physical body.

Charlie died...nothing that has or is going to happen can change that. Desmond tried to keep him alive for as long as he could, but it didn't matter. And since he is dead, there is no physical body alive for his consciousness to time jump to in the future.

Sorry, Charlie was a figment of Hurley's imagination.

When Eko died, we saw a clip of him walking off happily with his brother as children. I took that to be just a happy memory at the time, but it would fit with this theory.

Eko - and remember he was at the hatch when it explodiated - switched to a younger version of himself, and was able to live out his life for a second time.

Perhaps this even explains Charlotte. Perhaps the new Eko sent a real Yemi (now not dead, because the drug stuff never happened) to see Charlotte. No need for any in-between place, just a phone call would do.

One might find it difficult to rationalize this theory as Charlie was already dead before he appeared to Hurley. How can Charlie's mind jump back and forth if it ceases to work because he is no longer alive?

5. You radiation in the hatch + "vaccine" theory is flawed. SO many Losties were in that hatch and took no "vaccine". And if your going to say "oh, they weren't there when it imploded", then don't bother please. B/c according to your theory he was taking the "vaccine" b/c he was being exposed to radiation. Which means the implosion has nothing to do with it. Which means anyone who was in there was exposed to it. And none of them (but charlie) took this "vaccine". I say "vacine" b/c i still beleive it's a placebo...


You see this with X-Ray Techs all the time. They always wear the lead aprons because they are constantly exposed the the X-Rays day in and day out. However, the patient doesn't need to wear one because, generally speaking, patients are exposed to that much radation over the course of their lives. Remember, Daniel even explains this to Des about wearing the lead apron. Therefore, perhaps the vaccine is only necessary to those who are living in the hatch for years and, therefore, exposed to the EM day in and day out. Our Losties were only exposed for a month or so and only a few (Locke and Eko - anyone else?) lived in the hatch.

I think that was the purpose of the vaccine but it had to be taken every nine days. At some point Desmond stopped taking it, because he told Claire when he returned that it was a waste of time and did nothing.

Des didn't stop taking the "vaccine". We saw him take it the day they blew open the hatch door. It wasn't until they found the other hatch and saw the TV's where the Swan was being monitored that Des realized this "vaccine" was a hoax. Do you also not remember that the peopl ein this hatch wrote journals about everything that happened in the swan and sent it up a tube? And then we saw this tube went to nowhere and it also...was all a hoax?

Sorry for the long post, but I wanted to get to address everything here!

You know, I had kind of been thinking along these lines for a while, in that I thought Charlies inevitable death on the island was a course correction for the fact that Desmond changed the past and Charlie never got on the plane.

I'm not following you on this one. Charlie was obviously on the plane :confused:

I mean, for instance, someone earlier brought up Eloise. How did Eloise's consciousnes jump to the future (or her consciousness from the future jump to the past) if Eloise died before Daniel taught her the maze? The only possible way I can see this being explained is with multiple realities, which I thought TPTB had categorically ruled out (PLEASE correct me if I"m wrong).

I don't see the rat as being a paradox. If you look at the rat's life, then the learns the maze. Whether by a) Daniel teaching it "an hour from now" or b) having traveled into the future to learn the maze, therefore still learning the maze and knowing it - well you still end up with the same result. The rat knows the maze. So I don't really see the paradox in it. The fact that the rat went into what would have been the future to learn the maze is irrelevant. It just means that once it happened, Daniel had no reason in the current timeline to teach it to her. I hope I'm making sense here :)

In addition, what I believe Daniel did was bring the rat's future conciousness into its present self. So it was future-rat that ran the maze, not present-rat conciousness.

They said no paradoxes but we have already seen paradoxes, the rat is just one. Everything Desmond was doing by going back in time and getting information and bringing it back to help him was a paradox.

Well I've already stated my view on the rat, but the same view applies to Desmond. I haven't seen anything from his getting Penny's number in the past that would cause a paradox. We can all see, I think, through the grandfather theory how paradox might be caused by traveling to the past. How can you cause paradox by traveling to the future? Anything past the future point you traveled to hasn't happened yet, so there is nothing to paradox.

Charlie would have gotten stuck in the past with all of his island memories and therefore would not have taken flight 815. But there are not "two Charlie's" per se. There is only his past self with the consciousness of the future self that died.

I don't see how this explains how Charlie could be in Hurley's FF then. You are saying that Charlie's on-island conciousness would die in his past?

This is no more a paradox than Desmond traveling back to 1996 and telling his friend Donovan about the island, who may then have told Penny and thus Penny now knows where to look for him. Yet they've done that.

Again, this is not paradox but a changing of what future events might have happened. If you think of a binary tree and the top of the tree being a past even, the bottom branches of the tree would be future events. If you go back into the past and change something, you are simply changing which branch of the tree the timeline follows. Paradox only happens when something in the future of the timeline effects something in the past in the timeline to make that branch an impossibility for the timeline to follow.

Well if you pick apart what Damon says about paradoxs he says that paradoxes cannot happen in their singular timeline because the universe would "course correct" the paradox. Just look at this statement another way. Since Charlie's death was in fact inflicted by course correction one might argue that this is evidence of Charlie being a paradox.
Darlton could be saying there will be no paradoxes that aren't course corrected.
Meaning Charlie was a paradox = is now on his correct course.
*nose is bleeding*

I see this as being explained by the binary tree as well. Think of it this way. In any of the possible branches the timeline can follow, Charlie dies. No matter how much Desmond tries to prevent this it doesn't matter because it WILL happen. Charlie was meant to die. There are no branches of the tree in which Charlie can stay alive. This therefore wouldn't be a paradox.

You see this with X-Ray Techs all the time. They always wear the lead aprons because they are constantly exposed the the X-Rays day in and day out. However, the patient doesn't need to wear one because, generally speaking, patients are exposed to that much radation over the course of their lives. Remember, Daniel even explains this to Des about wearing the lead apron. Therefore, perhaps the vaccine is only necessary to those who are living in the hatch for years and, therefore, exposed to the EM day in and day out. Our Losties were only exposed for a month or so and only a few (Locke and Eko - anyone else?) lived in the hatch.


That's fine but there's still a flaw. Danny's little radiation machine was about (guessing since we never saw it) 1/100th the size of what was behind the wall in the hatch. I can only assume how large tho. So therefore, the amount of radiation put off of it is MUCH larger and therefore with the losties being exposed to it for the month they were there, they still were exposed to a lot.

That's fine but there's still a flaw. Danny's little radiation machine was about (guessing since we never saw it) 1/100th the size of what was behind the wall in the hatch. I can only assume how large tho. So therefore, the amount of radiation put off of it is MUCH larger and therefore with the losties being exposed to it for the month they were there, they still were exposed to a lot.

Yes, but don't forget that the machine in the hatch was insulated with concrete. Remember Sayid saying that the last time he had seen such an enclosure whas Chernobyl?

Okay Pyrolite, you're tone is still pretty dismissive and rude but I'm going to overlook that and discuss the points you raise anyway.

1. Charlie is dead

Agreed. So? So was the rat that still learned the maze and do was Minkowski that said "I can't get back". I really don't see how that refutes what I'm saying.


2. If Charlie "time-warped" into his past self and never got on 815, this means he never landed on the island. Which means Hurley and EVERYONE never met him. Sooooo...yeah


No, because that would be an alternate timeline and as Damon has stated, there are no alternate timelines and the future cannot be changed. Charlie existed on that island and that is not changeable. His consciousness may have just travelled off just like Desmond's did. When Desmond did it, it did not cause the people on the island to forget who he was and wouldn't have even if he had stayed back there because the future that we saw did not and cannot change. I'll admit it makes the head explode, but blame Damon for that for introducing time travel and imposing impossible rules on it for the purpose of not presenting another Heroes story.


3. I will agree that "Charlie" was not just imagined by Hurley b/c of the fact that his appearence was different. And, another reason I beleive he saw him, is b/c the specifically made it a point to have "Charlie" off camera when Hurley saw him by the ho ho's. That way we would ponder his "realness".


Okay, fine.

4. I put "Charlie" instead of Charlie b/c i do not beleive the "Charlie" we see is a true physical form. I don't think he was imagined either. Think of him as a "gaurdian angel". Kind of like Jack's dad (as we saw in the Missing Peices) sending Vincent to wake Jack up. As we see with Ben's mom when he is a child.

If you like, I just disagree.


5. You radiation in the hatch + "vaccine" theory is flawed. SO many Losties were in that hatch and took no "vaccine". And if your going to say "oh, they weren't there when it imploded", then don't bother please. B/c according to your theory he was taking the "vaccine" b/c he was being exposed to radiation. Which means the implosion has nothing to do with it. Which means anyone who was in there was exposed to it. And none of them (but charlie) took this "vaccine". I say "vacine" b/c i still beleive it's a placebo...


Not flawed, I just need to clarify: I believe the purpose of the vaccine was to prevent the side effects due to prolonged exposure which would occur in the event of an incident. It was protection from such an event, but of course not knowing if or when such an incident might occur, you had to take the medication all the time (every nine days). It is not the mere presence of electromagnetism (not radiation) that does this, but the combination of that exposure and a cataclysmic event (electromagnetic implosion, lightning, radiation at a certain setting like in Dan's lab) acting as a trigger.

Would a knowledgeable Charlie explain why Malkin knew (and possibly others, like Sun's dad) about Oceanic 815 potentially crashing? If past Charlie knew, you'd have to explain why he didn't say anything and try to prevent the plane from flying. Maybe the presence of the losties on that island is very important to something happening in the outside world?

Good question lune. I couldn't say, but certainly if he had tried to intervene, people would have thought he was crazy. Look at how they perceived Desmond when he met Charlie on the street. "This is why we don't do drugs". :)

Two reasons why it can't be Charlie:

1) Daniel said you cannot change the future.
2) It is the consciousness that timejumps, not the physical body.

Charlie died...nothing that has or is going to happen can change that. Desmond tried to keep him alive for as long as he could, but it didn't matter. And since he is dead, there is no physical body alive for his consciousness to time jump to in the future.

Sorry, Charlie was a figment of Hurley's imagination.

No one is changing the future here that you know of. TPTB only want you to know that the future you have already seen is fixed and will not change. But of course we've already seen Desmond do things to affect the future, like saving Charlie's life and prolonging it, causing him to get to the Looking Glass, and by getting Penny's number so he could call her. Of course the future was changed, but the futures of the O6 that we've seen will not change by any of this and that was the point of that.

As for Charlie being dead and having no body in the future to jump into, you're absolutely right. That's why I said more than once over these past few pages that Charlie didn't do that. My suggestion is Charlie time travelled to the past, not the future. He has a body to jump into in the past. And if he dies on the island, he cannot get back, just like Minkowski said, so he stays in the past until the ordinary passage of time brings him to that future date with Hurley and he appears as Hurley has never seen him: short hair and different clothes.

Yes, but don't forget that the machine in the hatch was insulated with concrete. Remember Sayid saying that the last time he had seen such an enclosure whas Chernobyl?

And yet it was stil capable of pulling Jacks key and causing Hurley's teeth to hurt b/c of his fillings...

And even IF the concrete protected it...then that contradicts ur theory. B/c the concrete would have protected Des from it the entire time.

Okay so Charlie is dead...but if Charlie can walk, talk, slap, be seen by people, interact with people, get a cool new haircut AND be dead then being dead really isn't such a drag...

Personally I think FF Charlie has a body and most people with bodies are alive.

Dead!Charlie lives :p

No, because that would be an alternate timeline and as Damon has stated, there are no alternate timelines and the future cannot be changed. Charlie existed on that island and that is not changeable. His consciousness may have just travelled off just like Desmond's did. When Desmond did it, it did not cause the people on the island to forget who he was and wouldn't have even if he had stayed back there because the future that we saw did not and cannot change. I'll admit it makes the head explode, but blame Damon for that for introducing time travel and imposing impossible rules on it for the purpose of not presenting another Heroes story.

No one is changing the future here that you know of. TPTB only want you to know that the future you have already seen is fixed and will not change. But of course we've already seen Desmond do things to affect the future, like saving Charlie's life and prolonging it, causing him to get to the Looking Glass, and by getting Penny's number so he could call her. Of course the future was changed, but the futures of the O6 that we've seen will not change by any of this and that was the point of that.

As for Charlie being dead and having no body in the future to jump into, you're absolutely right. That's why I said more than once over these past few pages that Charlie didn't do that. My suggestion is Charlie time travelled to the past, not the future. He has a body to jump into in the past. And if he dies on the island, he cannot get back, just like Minkowski said, so he stays in the past until the ordinary passage of time brings him to that future date with Hurley and he appears as Hurley has never seen him: short hair and different clothes.


You said it yourself, no one is changing the future. Therefore, this means it does not matter if charlies travels back to when he was 2, 12 or 22. He is going to die on that island. Which means he is going to get onto that plane...no matter what he does. If he does not, then he changes the future and never drowns b/c he would have never been there.

Look at when Des went back...he told Penny he would call her on Dec. 22 2004. B/c he (even tho he went back in time) was still going to end up on the Island. Was still going to push the button. Everything was still going to happen just as it was supposed to. It didn't matter what he changed in the past...the future was still going to happen as it did.

So, no matter what..Charlie is going to get on that plane...which means "Charlie" that Hurley sees cannot be what you are suggesting. If so, then that means there is a Charlie floating in TLG, and one walking around talking to Hurley....

Des didn't stop taking the "vaccine". We saw him take it the day they blew open the hatch door. It wasn't until they found the other hatch and saw the TV's where the Swan was being monitored that Des realized this "vaccine" was a hoax. Do you also not remember that the peopl ein this hatch wrote journals about everything that happened in the swan and sent it up a tube? And then we saw this tube went to nowhere and it also...was all a hoax?

The Pearl was the experiment as Desmond suspected and told Locke. The Swan station was all very real as we discovered when the hatch imploded. We saw Desmond was take the vaccine up until he ran from the hatch at the start of season two and that was it. He took a bunch of vials with him when he ran but we never saw him use them again and in fact by the end of season two when he returned he told Claire who was about to give Aaron a shot that she was wasting her time because he took it (past tense) for three years and the stuff didn't do anything. Clearly he no longer believed in it and wasn't taking it anymore. But that does not mean he was right. He just thought it was for a sickness that he believed was a hoax. It in fact may have been very real, and created to counteract the side effects of a large buildup of electromagnetism in the event of an incident.

I don't see how this explains how Charlie could be in Hurley's FF then. You are saying that Charlie's on-island conciousness would die in his past?

I don't understand your question, but I'll just try to explain again how Charlie's consciousness could have time travelled into his past during his drowning but before his actual death, thus trapping him and his island memories in the past. He can't get back to the island now because his body there is dead (like Minkowski who said I can't get back) so he has no choice but to live out those years again, and the years go by until the day he sees Hurley at Santa Rosa (what to us is the future at the time we are seeing it). I think he had to see Hurley, because Hurley is Charlie's constant, the one thing he cares about in both places.

Pyrolite - I didn't say the concrete was an absolute shield, only that it protected people from the full on effects of whatever the is producing the EM. The vaccine is possibly used to protect against prolonged exposure. Again, going back to getting x-rays. As a patient, you are exposed to a small doseage of radiation and that isn't harmful. But, those that work with the x-rays are constantly exposed. Radiation poisoning can occur after a build up of exposure; it doesn' t have to be one big blast.

Des and Kelvin spent years around the EM machine. The Losties were only exposed for, at most, a month. And, at that, only hours at a time.

You said it yourself, no one is changing the future. Therefore, this means it does not matter if charlies travels back to when he was 2, 12 or 22. He is going to die on that island. Which means he is going to get onto that plane...no matter what he does. If he does not, then he changes the future and never drowns b/c he would have never been there.

Look at when Des went back...he told Penny he would call her on Dec. 22 2004. B/c he (even tho he went back in time) was still going to end up on the Island. Was still going to push the button. Everything was still going to happen just as it was supposed to. It didn't matter what he changed in the past...the future was still going to happen as it did.

So, no matter what..Charlie is going to get on that plane...which means "Charlie" that Hurley sees cannot be what you are suggesting. If so, then that means there is a Charlie floating in TLG, and one walking around talking to Hurley....

I think what's hanging you up is the idea that time is linear, but time is not linear and Damon has said this with regards to Lost. Time is circular, and all things occur at once. So at the same time Desmond travels to his past, he still exists in the present. He didn't disappear in front of Sayid's eyes, his body was still there. Charlie travelling back to his past does not change the future, does not alter the timeline, does not remove Charlie from the island. Charlie's dead body is still on the island, even as his consciousness moves through time, just like with Desmond, Minkowski and Eloise. He does not have to get on that plane if it is not his destiny to do so. His destiny may be to assist in the rescue, and for that he has to avoid getting on the plane. If this is his path he will be allowed to do it, and it does not remove the Charlie that was already on the island. He was in both places. Dead BUT ALSO HERE.

The Pearl was the experiment as Desmond suspected and told Locke. The Swan station was all very real as we discovered when the hatch imploded. We saw Desmond was take the vaccine up until he ran from the hatch at the start of season two and that was it. He took a bunch of vials with him when he ran but we never saw him use them again and in fact by the end of season two when he returned he told Claire who was about to give Aaron a shot that she was wasting her time because he took it (past tense) for three years and the stuff didn't do anything. Clearly he no longer believed in it and wasn't taking it anymore. But that does not mean he was right. He just thought it was for a sickness that he believed was a hoax. It in fact may have been very real, and created to counteract the side effects of a large buildup of electromagnetism in the event of an incident.



I don't understand your question, but I'll just try to explain again how Charlie's consciousness could have time travelled into his past during his drowning but before his actual death, thus trapping him and his island memories in the past. He can't get back to the island now because his body there is dead (like Minkowski who said I can't get back) so he has no choice but to live out those years again, and the years go by until the day he sees Hurley at Santa Rosa (what to us is the future at the time we are seeing it). I think he had to see Hurley, because Hurley is Charlie's constant, the one thing he cares about in both places.


Just so u know, I'm no saying ur theory is wrong. I'm, just saying it makes no sense. Daniel said it himself...

Your mind is jumping back and forth from past to present...eventually it will not know what is real and will short circuit (aka...u die). That is, unless you get a constant. Charlies dead...he has no present to jump to. He will not be jumping back and forth, and therefore, will not need a constant. His mind (according to u) would be in one place and once place only. So why does he need a constant?

I don't understand your question, but I'll just try to explain again how Charlie's consciousness could have time travelled into his past during his drowning but before his actual death, thus trapping him and his island memories in the past. He can't get back to the island now because his body there is dead (like Minkowski who said I can't get back) so he has no choice but to live out those years again

Your theory makes sense to me thus-far until

and the years go by until the day he sees Hurley at Santa Rosa (what to us is the future at the time we are seeing it). I think he had to see Hurley, because Hurley is Charlie's constant, the one thing he cares about in both places.

Which to me doesn't make sense. He would live out those years until he got onto the plane, went to the island, and eventually died, which (according to part of your theory of Charlie getting unstuck when he dies) would send his conciousness back in time, causing him to be in an infinite loop.

You said it yourself, no one is changing the future. Therefore, this means it does not matter if charlies travels back to when he was 2, 12 or 22. He is going to die on that island. Which means he is going to get onto that plane...no matter what he does. If he does not, then he changes the future and never drowns b/c he would have never been there.
...
So, no matter what..Charlie is going to get on that plane...which means "Charlie" that Hurley sees cannot be what you are suggesting. If so, then that means there is a Charlie floating in TLG, and one walking around talking to Hurley....

:hesaid:

I think what's hanging you up is the idea that time is linear, but time is not linear and Damon has said this with regards to Lost. Time is circular, and all things occur at once. So at the same time Desmond travels to his past, he still exists in the present. He didn't disappear in front of Sayid's eyes, his body was still there. Charlie travelling back to his past does not change the future, does not alter the timeline, does not remove Charlie from the island. Charlie's dead body is still on the island, even as his consciousness moves through time, just like with Desmond, Minkowski and Eloise. He does not have to get on that plane if it is not his destiny to do so. His destiny may be to assist in the rescue, and for that he has to avoid getting on the plane. If this is his path he will be allowed to do it, and it does not remove the Charlie that was already on the island. He was in both places. Dead BUT ALSO HERE.

So...if I'm getting this right...

You are saying that there are 2 charlies...lol

The dead one in the water...and the one walking around talking to Hurley (that can also just magically dissapear). Hmmm....I think with that, I'm done discussing this.

So...if I'm getting this right...

You are saying that there are 2 charlies...lol

The dead one in the water...and the one walking around talking to Hurley (that can also just magically dissapear). Hmmm....I think with that, I'm done discussing this.

It seems to me now that this is what he is implying, and if that is so I am going to have to bail on this discussion as well. TPTB have said no paradoxes. What you see is what happens. Charlie got on the plane, and went to the island. There is no way that two Charlie's can exist (one that goes to the island and one that doesn't) because you would have that paradox.

Your mind is jumping back and forth from past to present...eventually it will not know what is real and will short circuit (aka...u die). That is, unless you get a constant. Charlies dead...he has no present to jump to. He will not be jumping back and forth, and therefore, will not need a constant. His mind (according to u) would be in one place and once place only. So why does he need a constant?

That's a fair point, and the part about Hurley being Charlie's constant really was only a side idea. If Charlie is now staying put he may need no constant apart from the fact that he still carries these memories of his island self. We don't really know what's been happening to Charlie in that past or whether he was still moving through different times in his own past. But okay, let's assume no constant, Charlie could still seek out Hurley because they need to go back to the island.

Which to me doesn't make sense. He would live out those years until he got onto the plane, went to the island, and eventually died, which (according to part of your theory of Charlie getting unstuck when he dies) would send his conciousness back in time, causing him to be in an infinite loop.


Well if past Charlie had all the knowledge of 2004 like Desmond did in 1996, then why on earth would he get on a plane that he knew was going to crash? He would have avoided it, and been allowed to, if that was his path. He would have made a different choice because now his awareness is different. This is just what Desmond tried to do when he said he would give Penny the ring and do what he wanted, only that wasn't his path and fate wouldn't let him. If it's fate that Charlie now stay off the plane, he won't get on the plane.

Yeah, without trying to argue or get on anybody's bad side, I also disagree that Charlie is doing a Des "time shift"... and is actually, dead. :frown:

If it's only the consciousness that shifts, and no major paradoxes are allowed to occur, then there can only be 1 "charlie" body... and that body is now under the ocean.

So...if I'm getting this right...

You are saying that there are 2 charlies...lol

The dead one in the water...and the one walking around talking to Hurley (that can also just magically dissapear). Hmmm....I think with that, I'm done discussing this.

It seems to me now that this is what he is implying, and if that is so I am going to have to bail on this discussion as well. TPTB have said no paradoxes. What you see is what happens. Charlie got on the plane, and went to the island. There is no way that two Charlie's can exist (one that goes to the island and one that doesn't) because you would have that paradox.


You can bail if you wish but I am definitely NOT saying there are two Charlies. Do you consider yourself from two years ago another you and yourself of tomorrow a third you? They are all you, just you of different times. Charlie's consciousness entering the body of his past self does not mean two Charlies. It is the same person, one in the past and one in the present. Time is circular remember, not linear, and all of these things are existing at once, but they are all the same person.
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Yeah, without trying to argue or get on anybody's bad side, I also disagree that Charlie is doing a Des "time shift"... and is actually, dead. :frown:

If it's only the consciousness that shifts, and no major paradoxes are allowed to occur, then there can only be 1 "charlie" body... and that body is now under the ocean.

I don't know why this is so hard to accept when Desmond didn't have one body as we saw. He left his 2004 body and entered his 1996 body and vice versa. Why is there only one Charlie body and none existing in the past? I'm only suggesting the exact same thing that Desmond and Minkowski did. We saw Minkowski die, and his consciousness may have been in a Minkowski body of the past, not "another" Minkowski, but his past body, just like Desmond's. To me it's exactly the same thing, I don't get why this is such a hard sell.

So...if I'm getting this right...

You are saying that there are 2 charlies...lol

The dead one in the water...and the one walking around talking to Hurley (that can also just magically dissapear). Hmmm....I think with that, I'm done discussing this. Good. It's okay to disagree and state the reason why but ridiculing people's theory just isn't cool.

And of course having two Charlies out there would be as ridiculous as having two rabbits (http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=4bTvAUVPyLI).

Well if past Charlie had all the knowledge of 2004 like Desmond did in 1996, then why on earth would he get on a plane that he knew was going to crash? He would have avoided it, and been allowed to, if that was his path. He would have made a different choice because now his awareness is different. This is just what Desmond tried to do when he said he would give Penny the ring and do what he wanted, only that wasn't his path and fate wouldn't let him. If it's fate that Charlie now stay off the plane, he won't get on the plane.

I think you answered your question yourself. Desmond went through what you are implying Charlie has gone through and look where Desmond ended up. Still on the island. He has to go, he has to push the button, etc etc. Same thing with Charlie. The only timeline that exists is the one in which Charlie ends up on the island, because that is the timeline that TPTB have put forth in LOST.

Well if past Charlie had all the knowledge of 2004 like Desmond did in 1996, then why on earth would he get on a plane that he knew was going to crash? He would have avoided it, and been allowed to, if that was his path. He would have made a different choice because now his awareness is different. This is just what Desmond tried to do when he said he would give Penny the ring and do what he wanted, only that wasn't his path and fate wouldn't let him. If it's fate that Charlie now stay off the plane, he won't get on the plane.


Ok, I think you got confused in the show. 2004 Desmond did not go to 1996 Desmond...1996 came to 2004...hence y he has no idea where he is or who Sayid is. He does not have all the knowledge of 2004. He only knows what happens when he jumps into the present. in the 1996 self, he has no clue what is going on until it is explained to him. Then, and only then, does he have any knowledge. Then he finds his constant...and his mind is stabalized. The ONLY thing 1996 desmond knows is to go to oxford and find Daniel...then to find his constant. That is all he knows.

So, if the same thing happens to Charlie, that means 19?? (since we wouldn't know where his mind came from), would jump into 2004 just like desmond did. But charlie is dead...so his mind can't jump into the present.

He can't get back to the island now because his body there is dead (like Minkowski who said I can't get back)

I have a slightly different view..........I think.

I don't believe Minkowski could not get back to his body because it died. I believe the body died because he could not get back. Does that make sense? Does it make a difference?

It SEEMS that people are saying Minkowski's "soul" could not get back because of his dead body. It appeared to me the opposite was true.

Anyway, so is Minowski alive in the past and staying as far away from the boat as possible?

Thanks for bringing up the rabbits cylune, I forgot to mention that. Two rabbits, but the same rabbit, one from the past and another from the future for example. Just the same rabbit from two points in time. A past Charlie and a present Charlie is not really two Charlies any more than these are two different rabbits. They are one in the same, existing simultaneously. The Orchid film illustrates this idea very well.

We saw Minkowski die, and his consciousness may have been in a Minkowski body of the past, not "another" Minkowski, but his past body, just like Desmond's. To me it's exactly the same thing, I don't get why this is such a hard sell.

It is hard to sell because your theory implies that everything we have seen on the show with Charlie being on the island and dying would be false. It also implies paradox. If he never got on the plane to go to the island, he never would have been able to die, and would never have been able to get unstuck in time and go to the past in order decide not to get on the plane.

I don't know why this is so hard to accept when Desmond didn't have one body as we saw. He left his 2004 body and entered his 1996 body and vice versa. Why is there only one Charlie body and none existing in the past? I'm only suggesting the exact same thing that Desmond and Minkowski did. We saw Minkowski die, and his consciousness may have been in a Minkowski body of the past, not "another" Minkowski, but his past body, just like Desmond's. To me it's exactly the same thing, I don't get why this is such a hard sell.
I see what your saying, and I wasn't trying to argue with you.

There WAS Des in his 1996 body and his 2004 body, but the two "body's" never over-lapped... If Charlie's consciousness went back to PRE-island time, there's still only the ONE body at that time (Charlie "PRE-island") though... and we know that this body HAS to go to the island (no paradoxes, what we've seen has happened and will happen), where it (the body - he, for Charlie) dies.
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It is hard to sell because your theory implies that everything we have seen on the show with Charlie being on the island and dying would be false. It also implies paradox. If he never got on the plane to go to the island, he never would have been able to die, and would never have been able to get unstuck in time and go to the past in order decide not to get on the plane.
This is what I'm thinking also. An alive Charlie is the very definition of a paradox. Which TPTB have said they are trying to avoid. Furthermore, if we're supposed to be emotionally invested in what we've "seen", then as hard and sad as it might be, we've "seen" Charlie die.

I think you answered your question yourself. Desmond went through what you are implying Charlie has gone through and look where Desmond ended up. Still on the island. He has to go, he has to push the button, etc etc. Same thing with Charlie. The only timeline that exists is the one in which Charlie ends up on the island, because that is the timeline that TPTB have put forth in LOST.

So you're saying Desmond had to go back because if not he wouldn't be there, and therefore Charlie also would have to go back because if not he also wouldn't be there. Hm, have to think about that one.

He can't get back to the island now because his body there is dead (like Minkowski who said I can't get back)

I have a slightly different view..........I think.

I don't believe Minkowski could not get back to his body because it died. I believe the body died because he could not get back. Does that make sense? Does it make a difference?

It SEEMS that people are saying Minkowski's "soul" could not get back because of his dead body. It appeared to me the opposite was true.

Anyway, so is Minowski alive in the past and staying as far away from the boat as possible?

Which came first then? Was it the fact that he was permanently unstuck without a constant that killed him? Interesting idea. Not sure if it makes a difference. What happens to his consciousness then if it is in his past self?

Okay, granted I've only skimmed the last few pages of this thread, but I have a question - and this question is being posed with the utmost respect and interest in this topic. I am buying the whole Charlie's consciousness still existing, but I can't help but wonder about the second time that Hurley "saw" Charlie - at the police station, when he had the vision of him in the two-way mirror that then flooded. Was this just a figment of Hurley's imagination brought on by the stress of seeing Charlie "by the ho-ho's" or something else? It wouldn't fit with the theory presented here for it to really be Charlie, so is it a red herring, that that was a vision/hallucination of Hurley's but the other Charlie sightings are real? Any thoughts?

So you're saying Desmond had to go back because if not he wouldn't be there, and therefore Charlie also would have to go back because if not he also wouldn't be there. Hm, have to think about that one.

Yes, exactly. That is what I was trying to get across in this post:

It is hard to sell because your theory implies that everything we have seen on the show with Charlie being on the island and dying would be false. It also implies paradox. If he never got on the plane to go to the island, he never would have been able to die, and would never have been able to get unstuck in time and go to the past in order decide not to get on the plane.

Anyway, so is Minowski alive in the past and staying as far away from the boat as possible?
Regardless of Charlie's appearance to Hurley, I think the swifting in time of certain people would maybe explain why some people seem to be aware that fight 815 was going to crash - Malkin, Widmore, Faraday, Sun's dad... Malkin said to Eko he was a fraud... maybe it's true. Someone wanted Aaron and Claire on that plane, and that someone knew it was going to crash.

2004 Desmond did not go to 1996 Desmond...1996 came to 2004...hence y he has no idea where he is or who Sayid is. He does not have all the knowledge of 2004. He only knows what happens when he jumps into the present. in the 1996 self, he has no clue what is going on until it is explained to him. Then, and only then, does he have any knowledge. Then he finds his constant...and his mind is stabalized. The ONLY thing 1996 desmond knows is to go to oxford and find Daniel...then to find his constant. That is all he knows. I thought you were done with this discussion? *sigh* Good points. However, Faraday said it was different depending on the person. Minowski for example definitaly knew who he was and his functions on the boat and how he became that way. So if he went back in time, he would have knowledge of the island and his experiences.

As for no paradox, I'd side with Captain_Falafel on this - the universe was trying to "course correct" itself when trying to kill Charlie. Maybe because there was a paradox created and the course correcting is the universe's way of eliminating paradoxes.

Ok, I think you got confused in the show. 2004 Desmond did not go to 1996 Desmond...1996 came to 2004...hence y he has no idea where he is or who Sayid is. He does not have all the knowledge of 2004. He only knows what happens when he jumps into the present. in the 1996 self, he has no clue what is going on until it is explained to him. Then, and only then, does he have any knowledge. Then he finds his constant...and his mind is stabalized. The ONLY thing 1996 desmond knows is to go to oxford and find Daniel...then to find his constant. That is all he knows.

So, if the same thing happens to Charlie, that means 19?? (since we wouldn't know where his mind came from), would jump into 2004 just like desmond did. But charlie is dead...so his mind can't jump into the present.

Maybe I used the wrong example then or I didn't specify in my post I forget. Let's look at FBYE, where a 2004 Desmond travelled back into his 1996 body with all of the knowledge of the island. That was his 2004 self in 1996 and that's what I was referring to. At the same time, Desmond was unconscious and naked in the jungle.

It is hard to sell because your theory implies that everything we have seen on the show with Charlie being on the island and dying would be false. It also implies paradox. If he never got on the plane to go to the island, he never would have been able to die, and would never have been able to get unstuck in time and go to the past in order decide not to get on the plane.

I don't mean to imply that. In fact, I thought it avoided a cop out because Charlie did die. I never tried to take the position that he didn't. But what is death on Lost anyway? We've seen consciousness live on, heard whispers, seen Miles talk to a dead Naomi. Consciousness is just energy and that never goes away. Maybe they are trying to make a statement about the nature of death but I don't think it takes anything away from the fact that Charlie died.

Ok, I will explain what I'm thinking. Let's say your charlie theory is correct...the reason I have an issue with it is simple...

The butterfly effect...if you've seen the movie, then you know what I mean. In the movie, the character does not time travel, only his mind does. He changes on thing in the past, if effects the future. So with you tellin gme charlie goes into the past and changes things, I can only assume it affects the future. We were told you cannot change the future.

So that is why I cannot agree with it

**edit**

Also, it's hard for me to grasp b/c of this. FF Charlie dissapeared from Hurley. So that makes me beleive he is not a physical apparition. UNLESS, they have a way to time-travel physically. Which would explain the two rabbits as posted b4. B/c that second rabbit just "appeared" on the top shelf of the rack. Which only explains physical time-travel. With desmond, no bodies went away. It was all conscious. But the rabbit just appeared...which means thye either "caught up" with time or time "caught up" with them...or it was sent foward/backwards into time.

Regardless of Charlie's appearance to Hurley, I think the swifting in time of certain people would maybe explain why some people seem to be aware that fight 815 was going to crash - Malkin, Widmore, Faraday, Sun's dad... Malkin said to Eko he was a fraud... maybe it's true. Someone wanted Aaron and Claire on that plane, and that someone knew it was going to crash.

Oh excellent. Time travel would be a cool way to explain how so many people knew about 815 and the island.

As for no paradox, I'd side with Captain_Falafel on this - the universe was trying to "course correct" itself when trying to kill Charlie. Maybe because there was a paradox created and the course correcting is the universe's way of eliminating paradoxes.

Yes, thank you. I forgot about that but it would mean that what we are seeing actually prevents a paradox. Right.

I don't mean to imply that. In fact, I thought it avoided a cop out because Charlie did die. I never tried to take the position that he didn't. But what is death on Lost anyway? We've seen consciousness live on, heard whispers, seen Miles talk to a dead Naomi. Consciousness is just energy and that never goes away. Maybe they are trying to make a statement about the nature of death but I don't think it takes anything away from the fact that Charlie died.
I can agree to this, whatever "this" really means. :biggrin:

Ok, I will explain what I'm thinking. Let's say your charlie theory is correct...the reason I have an issue with it is simple...

The butterfly effect...if you've seen the movie, then you know what I mean. In the movie, the character does not time travel, only his mind does. He changes on thing in the past, if effects the future. So with you tellin gme charlie goes into the past and changes things, I can only assume it affects the future. We were told you cannot change the future.

So that is why I cannot agree with it

Actually, the Butterfly Effect is much older than that silly movie. There was a SF short story (not sure if that started the saying) about a time machine. A man goes back to prehistoric times. He is told specifically to not stray from the path that has been set out. Of course, he does, and in the process steps on a butterfly. When he returns to present day, the Nazis rule the world (or something like that).

Anyway, how do we know that the "future" we see on Lost is not the already changed version created by Charlie going back in time?

Ok, I will explain what I'm thinking. Let's say your charlie theory is correct...the reason I have an issue with it is simple...

The butterfly effect...if you've seen the movie, then you know what I mean. In the movie, the character does not time travel, only his mind does. He changes on thing in the past, if effects the future. So with you tellin gme charlie goes into the past and changes things, I can only assume it affects the future. We were told you cannot change the future.

So that is why I cannot agree with it

You may be oversimplifying what was meant by that statement "you cannot change the future". TPTB have explained this in both an interview and the recent podcast. They are applying literary restrictions on their time travel to avoid the future that they have already shown you (Jack's pills, Kate with Aaron, Sayid and Ben) changing. In their 'verse, there is no butterfly effect that will change that future. That is really the extent of their restriction. Any future we haven't seen yet is still up for grabs because you would never know if it was an intended future or a changed one, it just becomes the future you accept. We've already seen examples of this. Desmond prevented Claire from drowning. He changed her future. He saved Charlie from the arrow. He changed his future, even if he still died a week later, Desmond gave him that week. Such things are allowed here under TPTB's rules. The only thing not allowed is to change what we've already seen.

So with you tellin gme charlie goes into the past and changes things, I can only assume it affects the future. We were told you cannot change the future.


I'm sure Charlie changing things in the past would "affect" the future. Desmond going into the past and talking to Faraday and getting Penny's number affected the present/future too. But there is still only one future. And remember Charlie is "here" in the future.

You may be oversimplifying what was meant by that statement "you cannot change the future". TPTB have explained this in both an interview and the recent podcast. They are applying literary restrictions on their time travel to avoid the future that they have already shown you (Jack's pills, Kate with Aaron, Sayid and Ben) changing. In their 'verse, there is no butterfly effect that will change that future. That is really the extent of their restriction. Any future we haven't seen yet is still up for grabs because you would never know if it was an intended future or a changed one, it just becomes the future you accept. We've already seen examples of this. Desmond prevented Claire from drowning. He changed her future. He saved Charlie from the arrow. He changed his future, even if he still died a week later, Desmond gave him that week. Such things are allowed here under TPTB's rules. The only thing not allowed is to change what we've already seen.

I can agree with this, but I still have a problem. In my mind, if Charlie goes back to his past self and doesn't get on the plane, it changes the future we have seen. Unless, as I was stating, a "physical" Charlie travels back. So there would be the "2 Charlies"

Charlie is dead. He told Hugo that. Hugo saw Dave before he came to the island and on the island. I wouldn't put too much stock in Charlie showing up to Hugo at the mental hospital.

I don't mean to imply that. In fact, I thought it avoided a cop out because Charlie did die. I never tried to take the position that he didn't. But what is death on Lost anyway? We've seen consciousness live on, heard whispers, seen Miles talk to a dead Naomi. Consciousness is just energy and that never goes away. Maybe they are trying to make a statement about the nature of death but I don't think it takes anything away from the fact that Charlie died.

Yes, Charlie dies on the show but if you go with your theory, Charlie would not die because he would decide not to get on the plane.

I also think its possible for the whispers to be other conciousness. This doesn't seem to have anything to do with the theory you've put forth about Charlie, though because in your theory Charlie's conciousness has a body to latch on to in the past and then he makes different decisions than he did in the LOST timeline that we have been watching for 3+ seasons.

In my mind, if Charlie goes back to his past self and doesn't get on the plane, it changes the future we have seen. Unless, as I was stating, a "physical" Charlie travels back. So there would be the "2 Charlies"
Considering the island seems to exist in some sort of vacuum, I don't really see the problem with this. For every point, there are an infinite number of paths that can come out of it. Parallel universes are really not a problem, as long as they don't interact (ie Island Charlie meets NonIsland Charlie) - which doesn't seem to be the case here.

Besides, despite Damon's protestations, Desmond *did* threaten to change the future in "Flashes." It took Ms. Hawking to make sure he went back on track. Therefore, Desmond does have the power to change the present (and future) just by changing something in the past - something else Desmond did continuously in "Flashes" (especially the baseball bat).

Charlie is dead. He told Hugo that. Hugo saw Dave before he came to the island and on the island. I wouldn't put too much stock in Charlie showing up to Hugo at the mental hospital.

No, he told Hugo, "I am dead, but I'm also here." If it meant nothing, I don't think they would have bothered to show it to us and gone out of there way to make it appear so different from Dave and other visions we've seen. Dave appeared on the island in a bathrobe and slippers. Charlie didn't look anything like Hurley knew him. And another patient saw Charlie too. Again, they did these things for a reason, or they needn't have bothered. Charlie could have appeared just as he had in Greatest Hits and no one else might have remarked about seeing him. They could have done that and made it clear he was a Dave, but they didn't.

Charlie is dead. He told Hugo that.

:biggrin: It makes me giggle everytime I hear someone say this!

Reality Check: If a man walked up to you on the street and said "Hello, I'm dead!" and then slapped you hard across the face...would you, in fact, think he was dead? I wouldn't say that the man's actions defy him being dead?

Lateral thinking, people!

Considering the island seems to exist in some sort of vacuum, I don't really see the problem with this. For every point, there are an infinite number of paths that can come out of it. Parallel universes are really not a problem, as long as they don't interact (ie Island Charlie meets NonIsland Charlie) - which doesn't seem to be the case here.

Except that TPTB have already said there are no parallel universes and also pacejunkie's theory puts forth that everything is happening in the same universe.
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:biggrin: It makes me giggle everytime I hear someone say this!

Reality Check: If a man walked up to you on the street and said "Hello, I'm dead!" and then slapped you hard across the face...would you, in fact, think he was dead? I wouldn't say that the man's actions defy him being dead?

Lateral thinking, people!

We also see Christian Shephard (and others) walking around on the island and we know he's (they are) dead. So you can't have that thought process when it comes to LOST :)

:biggrin: It makes me giggle everytime I hear someone say this!

Reality Check: If a man walked up to you on the street and said "Hello, I'm dead!" and then slapped you hard across the face...would you, in fact, think he was dead? I wouldn't say that the man's actions defy him being dead?

Lateral thinking, people!
Lateral thinking would seem to go the way of Charlie being dead, imo. Did Dave not also slap Hurley?

Except that TPTB have already said there are no parallel universes and also pacejunkie's theory puts forth that everything is happening in the same universe.
Dude. They also said Charlie died for a reason, among many other lies. Damon can't even keep continuity straight in his own head, let alone the episodes they write - especially about time travel, which they've already screwed up with "Flashes" and Jacob enough to contradict anything Damon's trying to put out now.

'Nuff said.

:biggrin: It makes me giggle everytime I hear someone say this!

Reality Check: If a man walked up to you on the street and said "Hello, I'm dead!" and then slapped you hard across the face...would you, in fact, think he was dead? I wouldn't say that the man's actions defy him being dead?

Lateral thinking, people!

Slapping him in the face means nothing. Dave hit Hurley with a coconut...Hurley also had Dave's slipper...but as we found out...Dave is not real.

We also see Christian Shephard (and others) walking around on the island and we know he's (they are) dead. So you can't have that thought process when it comes to LOST :)

But, in one of the Mobisodes, you see Christian talking to Vincent and telling him to go find Jack and off Vincent goes. So, at leat to canine eyes, Christian isn't dead. Or he is dead but he is still there (a la Charlie).

Dude. They also said Charlie died for a reason, among many other lies. Damon can't even keep continuity straight in his own head. 'Nuff said.

He did die for a reason. If he hadn't stayed in the room, none of our Losties would have known that it wasn't Penny's boat off shore.

Yes, after this episode, I believe Charlie is unstuck in time. And here's why:

Charlie was in close proximity of the hatch when it imploded. He would have received the same large dose of electromagnetic radiation as the others. The only reason he may not have become unstuck then like Desmond was because if you recall, the day before that event, he injected himself with the vaccine. I think we now know what the vaccine is. It is given to the Dharma workers in the Swan station because they are exposed daily to high levels of electromagnetism. Like antiradiation meds, and it prevents them from becoming unstuck in time.

Now nine days later and that drug wears off. Charlie still has the exposure, but not as severe effects. He might only become unstuck under certain conditions and certain triggers. Maybe his drowning in the station was a trigger. His consciousness could have become unstuck just before he died, leaving it to roam free. He could then travel to any point in the past (not the future as yet since he's dead, and he can't return to hi