So, it seems that current Desmond had no recollection of this occurance in his past, even though it was his past self who experienced it all. I wonder why? Des the whole time period become a blur afterwards? Daniel seems to have an excuse for not remembering since he didn't protext his head from the radiation.

In FBYE, Desmond HAD memories of the days in his past, but relived them, changed them, but didn't effect the future- for example, he remembered details of the soccer game, but someone else getting punched. Why?

Maybe the answer is the story he told about joining the monastary- waking up in the middle of the street not knowing where he was.

This show makes my head hurt, but i love it!

I think instead of current Desmond having knowledge of the past, the "old" Desmond simply jumped to the future. So, in the end, when they finally split (and it shows "old" Desmond walking away from Penny's place), Future desmond returns to his future self.

Desmond is fully aware that 8 years ago he "jumped forward in time onto a boat" and had to change the situation, so it is actually "Future" desmond who actually gives Sayid the phone number. At the point he gives the number to Sayid, he is "himself" again and not his old self.


This might make some people ask "so then how did he not know he was going to be on a boat in a bad situation 2 days ago?" Well, thats how a paradox works. It has to start somehow.

Another good example of a paradox in this episode is Daniel solving his equation by telling "himself" (through Desmond) the answer to it. Then who solved the equation first in order for Daniel to know?

Same thing.

...what's coming over the next 8 years? If so, that would suck. That would be the crappiest psychix power ever.

"Hey, I know what's going to happen to me in 8 years and it is horrible! I can't do anything about it though. So, wanna get coffee tomorrow?":biggrin:

I don't really think it was the same thing.

It looked like, for a few moments while Desmond made the call, that past desmond was aware of what was happening in both places, which is why he was walking along the street then smiled when she answered,

Did he know before he got on the helicopter that this would happen? you would think he would remember Sayid, etc.

It doesn;t seem like present Desmond was aware.

Another good example of a paradox in this episode is Daniel solving his equation by telling "himself" (through Desmond) the answer to it. Then who solved the equation first in order for Daniel to know?

Same thing.

Owwwww... my brain just imploded.

Good point.

To the OP: Daniel didn't remember meeting Des in the past, either.

Perhaps the time travel itself causes some sort of brain damage. It wouldn't be that far fetched given all the other events that we've seen and are ok with :) Maybe that is the dangerous part of it, not only can it cause your brain to shoot out your nose if you don't get a grip, but it damages part of your memory too.

My theory is that this is exactly how he ends up in prison. You know how in movies, when somebody knows that something bad is going to happen and they try to prevent it by warning the police, then it happens anyway, the police come back and say "Well how did you know that was going to happen? You must have had something to do with it!"

I dunno, but that made me LOL

You'd think he'd do everything in his power to stay far away from boats huh?

Well he cant change anything, so staying away from boats can't be the case. Plus, with a paradox, you can't really look at it like "well if he knew he'd end up on some boat of death in December 24th 2004, why did he get on the helicopter not know what was coming" because thats why it's a paradox.

Same with Daniel getting his "solving" equation from himself, in the future - suggesting that no one, in fact ever really solved it. It was just information passed on, but no real reason as to how the information was originally obtained.

Paradoxes are awesome.

For present Daniel knowing how to solve the equation, I thought perhaps he had worked it out over time with testing. Present Daniel knew that he hadn't yet figured it out in 1996. So when Desmond approached Past Daniel he gave him a piece to the puzzle he was looking for, and wouldn't originally have figured out till some time later.

They certainly are. I don't see any way to avoid paradox in regards to time travel story lines. I don't think we're supposed to worry about those little perplexing events.

Where was "present" Des while past Des was in the "present"?

Well he cant change anything, so staying away from boats can't be the case. Plus, with a paradox, you can't really look at it like "well if he knew he'd end up on some boat of death in December 24th 2004, why did he get on the helicopter not know what was coming" because thats why it's a paradox.

Same with Daniel getting his "solving" equation from himself, in the future - suggesting that no one, in fact ever really solved it. It was just information passed on, but no real reason as to how the information was originally obtained.

Paradoxes are awesome.

Daniel probably came up with the equation on his own shortly after we see him with Des in 1996 originally. He then had it on the island to give to himself a little bit earlier just to prove to himself that he sent Des. Remember, you can't change the future, but you can do things differently as long as you get the same results.

To the OP: Daniel didn't remember meeting Des in the past, either.

Daniel has memory problems- probably from radiation exposure and not protecting his head. I wonder if he expected the island to heal his memory- since he was having Charlotte test his memory in the last episode. The fact that Daniel wrote about Desmond in his journal shows that the meeting indeed happend in Daniel's past.

That little smirk as he walked away from Penny's flat seemed to indicate at least a nice merge of Desmond's past and future subconsciouses. If he will be able to travel between them on the conscious level, that would indicate a serious level of awesomeness, the mathematical formula of which would make my head explode.

Daniel probably came up with the equation on his own shortly after we see him with Des in 1996 originally. He then had it on the island to give to himself a little bit earlier just to prove to himself that he sent Des. Remember, you can't change the future, but you can do things differently as long as you get the same results.

I like this explanation a lot. I'll buy it.

I don't really think it was the same thing.

It looked like, for a few moments while Desmond made the call, that past desmond was aware of what was happening in both places, which is why he was walking along the street then smiled when she answered,

Did he know before he got on the helicopter that this would happen? you would think he would remember Sayid, etc.

It doesn;t seem like present Desmond was aware.

But he didn't know yet because the paradox hadn't been created yet. Once the paradox is created, the timeline changes - we just witnessed events before the timeline changed. Thats how looping timelines work. At some point in the timeline it didn't loop, so things played out in a way to make it loop, thus we are seeing the point in the timeline that isn't looped yet, so Desmond doesn't know about the boat before he gets on the helicopter. The second he flashes back to the past, the timeline is now looped, so all instances of the "current" desmond now know about Penny, Farraday, and the Boat issues.

At least, thats how it would work with a looping timeline.

For present Daniel knowing how to solve the equation, I thought perhaps he had worked it out over time with testing. Present Daniel knew that he hadn't yet figured it out in 1996. So when Desmond approached Past Daniel he gave him a piece to the puzzle he was looking for, and wouldn't originally have figured out till some time later.


If that is the case, that supports the same looping timeline as before., If we suggest Daniel solved the equation, then told Desmond to tell him the answer, then the second Desmond does that the whole "existance" of Daniel solving it no longer exists because it never happened.

Paradoxes are the total root of looping timeslines because something HAD to have cause them to loop.

It's like someone going back in time and killing their old self. Suddenly that entire timeline loops on itself and prevents the time traveller from going back in time to kill himself - so then they wouldn't be dead in the first place since the time traveller couldn't travel back to kill them, which then allows the person to travel back in time and kill himself because he is still alive.

Paradoxes rule.


These used to bend my mind in half until I read some Michio Kaku books.

My view: The note in Daniel's notebook didn't exist until moments before Daniel read it on the Island, because Desmond's time travel didn't happen until moments before Daniel read the note.
Similarly, Desmond -- with or without amnesia -- would never have been aware of the time travel until it happened (December 24th, 2004).

Does this make any sense? It only sort of makes sense to me. Still working it out in my own head. 'Scuse me while I wipe the blood from my nose...

Speaking of knowing what's going to happen in the future, and knowing that more than one person has the ability to time-travel (Des and Dan), is it at all possible that the psychic Richard Malkin was/is capable of time travel? Is this how he knew about the 815 crash and that there would be danger, and about Aaron being raised by another (which we now know was about Kate)? Makes a person think!

No, I think the fact that he temporarily forgot who Sayid was is a clear indication that in 1996 he has no knowledge of the future. After he gets Penny's phone number everything goes back to normal. If he does remember anything past that point in 1996, it's nothing about an island, just about being on a freighter. But since he was going to kill himself in the hatch, I don't think he has any memory of what happened.

Daniel has memory problems- probably from radiation exposure and not protecting his head. I wonder if he expected the island to heal his memory- since he was having Charlotte test his memory in the last episode. The fact that Daniel wrote about Desmond in his journal shows that the meeting indeed happend in Daniel's past.

True, true. Unless Des' foray into the past altered the future -- although, I suppose that goes against what Dan, himself, said about the future not being able to be changed.

All I know is, this whole thing is freaking awesome. I'm loving it and I'm loving Dan.

Daniel probably came up with the equation on his own shortly after we see him with Des in 1996 originally. He then had it on the island to give to himself a little bit earlier just to prove to himself that he sent Des. Remember, you can't change the future, but you can do things differently as long as you get the same results.

But then that would erase the existence of Daniel ever solving the equation, thus no one ever really solved it. The second Desmond tells him how to solve it, the reality of Daniel solving it disappears and is replaced by Daniel telling his past self how to solve it.

So that means the person who solved the equation no longer exists on the "current" timeline.

These used to bend my mind in half until I read some Michio Kaku books.

I'm going to write that name down and check it out, maybe it will help me lol
I remember reading something similar to your suicide paradox once, although I don't remember where. I think it's a famous paradox actually? That if a man goes back in time and kills his grandfather, then he couldn't have been born to have gone back and shot his grandfather.

I think if I could go back in time, I would tell past me to not come to the fuselage or I wouldn't get much sleep on Thursday nights.

But he didn't know yet because the paradox hadn't been created yet. :68:TPTB have said there will be no paradoxes caused by the story on this show. :no2:

My view: The note in Daniel's notebook didn't exist until moments before Daniel read it on the Island, because Desmond's time travel didn't happen until moments before Daniel read the note.
Similarly, Desmond -- with or without amnesia -- would never have been aware of the time travel until it happened (December 24th, 2004).

Does this make any sense? It only sort of makes sense to me. Still working it out in my own head. 'Scuse me while I wipe the blood from my nose...

Hi. Sorry. My constant just came back from the future and explained to me why the above thought was dumb.

My constant wants you all to know that "Lost" is going to have a really great ending in 2010.

Where was "present" Des while past Des was in the "present"?

Clearly, you can be two places at one time on this show. Hence the polar bears and the bunnies.

Seems to me that 2004 Desmond was unstuck and lost in time, where 1996 Desmond shifted from 1996 to 2004 and back and so on.

Only until The Constant linked both times, did 2004 Desmond return.

Or at least thats my take.

:68:TPTB have said there will be no paradoxes caused by the story on this show. :no2:

Well, they kinda screwed that up by allowing Daniel to tell his past self how to solve his own equation. Now there is no one really "solving" it to begin with. Even if Daniel solved it, then told Desmond to tell his past self how to solve it, once Desmond did that Daniel would no longer by "solving" it, his future self who already solved it would be solving it, but that guy no longer exists once Daniel uses his information, because it changes his future.

That's definitely a paradox right there. =]

CONFUSED with that post lol

I just thought that Faraday wrote that note down in 1996 after his meeting with Desmond yet both Faraday and Desmond can't remember it. I think Faraday's memory of that event is now jogged in his mind...
wait, I still think thats a paradox...

CONFUSED with that post lol

I just thought that Faraday wrote that note down in 1996 after his meeting with Desmond yet both Faraday and Desmond can't remember it. I think Faraday's memory of that event is now jogged in his mind...
wait, I still think thats a paradox...

Unless we don't know the full story yet...

Well, they kinda screwed that up by allowing Daniel to tell his past self how to solve his own equation. Now there is no one really "solving" it to begin with. Even if Daniel solved it, then told Desmond to tell his past self how to solve it, once Desmond did that Daniel would no longer by "solving" it, his future self who already solved it would be solving it, but that guy no longer exists once Daniel uses his information, because it changes his future.

That's definitely a paradox right there. =]

I agree, it's the very definition of a paradox. I don't see how they could say there'd be no paradoxes.

it makes me think of that movie Frequency, where they keep changing things in the past causing the son in the future to have different sets of memories...

Hi. Sorry. My constant just came back from the future and explained to me why the above thought was dumb.

My constant wants you all to know that "Lost" is going to have a really great ending in 2010.

Give me your constant's address in the future. I have a lot of questions and a kick-*** mailbox that sends letters 2 years into the future.

Seems to me that 2004 Desmond was unstuck and lost in time, where 1996 Desmond shifted from 1996 to 2004 and back and so on.

Only until The Constant linked both times, did 2004 Desmond return.

Or at least thats my take.

I'm going to watch it again, but that's what I thought too. Des didn't really come back as his 2004 self until he'd made contact with his constant, which was also what saved his life. I wonder if he (and perhaps Daniel) will gradually come to master this whole time-travel thing, and thus not be enslaved by time and space, or whatever it said up on the screen in Room 23!

Seems to me that 2004 Desmond was unstuck and lost in time, where 1996 Desmond shifted from 1996 to 2004 and back and so on.

Only until The Constant linked both times, did 2004 Desmond return.

Or at least thats my take.

That is definitely what I saw happen. Basically, the moment that "past" Desmond appeared on the Helicopter, "current" Desmond was "unstuck in time" until the very end, when he rattled off penny's number and talked to her about "being stuck on the island" (a clear indicator this is not the "past" Desmond).

This could have something to do with 2004 Desmond not being able to exist in the timeline until 1996 Desmond got Penny's phone number. Once he got it, it "corrected" the timeline and 2004 Desmond was able to enter the timeline again.

Give me your constant's address in the future. I have a lot of questions and a kick-*** mailbox that sends letters 2 years into the future.

Does Keanu Reeves write back? :)

Does Keanu Reeves write back? :)

Unfortunately. :drowsy:

This could have something to do with 2004 Desmond not being able to exist in the timeline until 1996 Desmond got Penny's phone number. Once he got it, it "corrected" the timeline and 2004 Desmond was able to enter the timeline again.

Ah, a bit of an expansion of the theory. And I like it. That whole ep was a mindfrak

To the OP: Daniel didn't remember meeting Des in the past, either.

He did, but only AFTER Desmond travelled back. And then, there was a ripple effect forward through time. The evidence for this is in Daniel's notebook. He didn't write the note in his book before coming to the Island because before he came to Island, Desmond had never travelled back in time to meet Daniel. :eek2:

His future meeting with Desmond (in the past) changed Daniel's present (on the Island) because it caused Daniel to write that note to himself (after his meeting with Desmond in the past). "If something goes wrong ... Desmond is my constant."

After his meeting (in the past) with Desmond, Daniel became fearful that his journey to the Island might cause the same thing that happened to Desmond to happen to him. He, like Desmond, had been exposed to high levels of radiation/electromagnetism, and Daniel had cause to worry. This is why he wrote the note to himself in the second iteration (after Des travelled), but not the first (before Des travelled).

It's a paradox. Paradoxes cause temporary brain swirlies. I think I feel one coming on. Maybe Desmond can travel to my future and explain it all to me. :-)
100%
This could have something to do with 2004 Desmond not being able to exist in the timeline until 1996 Desmond got Penny's phone number. Once he got it, it "corrected" the timeline and 2004 Desmond was able to enter the timeline again.

Right. He needed something to anchor his mind to 2004, or else 2004 Desmond would have remained adrift, like Minkowski, until his brain imploded. ;)

I wonder if this is the power that Jacob has managed to harness so that he can exist at all points in time, simultaneously, without fear of death by nosebleed. Perhaps the healing power of the Island keeps him alive while he drifts through time. This might account for Jacob's nasty temper!

Where was "present" Des while past Des was in the "present"?

This makes me wonder if there is not some sort of "musical chairs" thing going when shifts happen.

Hear me out: a person shifts and their consciousness goes forward in time from where they think are supposed to be to island time. So where does the island consciousness go? And where do we find an "empty" consciousness to replace the 96 original it with? Is the Des we have grown to know and love out there somewhere? Did he shift to his body in a sandy grave 6 years in the future while his "Dead" consiousness shifted to fill in for the Army Des?

This is how the 1st shift might have happened on the heli for the visual learners out there

Past
Location Army base
consciousness empty/dead

Present
Location: Island/heli
consciousness"Why am I here? I don't know any of you!"

Future
Location: grave/coma
consciousness "I was just about to be saved and now i have sand in my eyes!"

And what was Faraday able to do with the empty Des? Is someone using those opportunities to talk to the conciusness that shifts in as replacement? What could Miles do if a dead consiousness was in a body replacing a current consiouness that is shifting?


My head is going to implode. *wipes blood from nose*

Another paradox is the rat learning the maze in the future, but dying before Daniel gets around to teaching it the maze, so technically the mouse never learned the maze, but it did.......

He did, but only AFTER Desmond travelled back. And then, there was a ripple effect forward through time. The evidence for this is in Daniel's notebook. He didn't write the note in his book before coming to the Island because before he came to Island, Desmond had never travelled back in time to meet Daniel. :eek2:

His future meeting with Desmond (in the past) changed Daniel's present (on the Island) because it caused Daniel to write that note to himself (after his meeting with Desmond in the past). "If something goes wrong ... Desmond is my constant."

After his meeting (in the past) with Desmond, Daniel became fearful that his journey to the Island might cause the same thing that happened to Desmond to happen to him. He, like Desmond, had been exposed to high levels of radiation/electromagnetism, and Daniel had cause to worry. This is why he wrote the note to himself in the second iteration (after Des travelled), but not the first (before Des travelled).

Extremely well put, LotF.

My view: The note in Daniel's notebook didn't exist until moments before Daniel read it on the Island, because Desmond's time travel didn't happen until moments before Daniel read the note.
Similarly, Desmond -- with or without amnesia -- would never have been aware of the time travel until it happened (December 24th, 2004).

Does this make any sense? It only sort of makes sense to me. Still working it out in my own head. 'Scuse me while I wipe the blood from my nose...

Makes more sense that Daniel had written the note about Desmond in 1996. Simply forgot about when he traveled to the island in 2004 (along with many other things) and was reminded of it after his coversations with Desmond regarding his actions in 1996.

Makes more sense that Daniel had written the note about Desmond in 1996. Simply forgot about when he traveled to the island in 2004 (along with many other things) and was reminded of it after his coversations with Desmond regarding his actions in 1996.
I'm with Flotsam. I think that when Daniel arrived on the island, that notation was not in his notebook.