Why weren't any 815ers affected by travel to the island? Is it only if you travel by sea that you are affected? Clearly, the 4 freigheters were fine and they flew in. Did Desmond get the sickness from leaving by helicopter because he was suseptible becasue of his exposure? How did the Dharma folk keep from getting it? is under water- Submarine travel ok?

Soooooo many questions, despite the nice answers!

Juliet/Ben/Richard/Ethan/Danielle all traveled by sea, and weren't affected... but there definitely seems to be a prerequisite for having this kind of thing happen.

Some people seem to be immune. Didn't Henry Gale write that his wife had the illness? Then again, he came by aire. . . maybe you have to be a certain amount above or below the surface of the water. maybe there is a field on the surface of the water. this makes me scared for Walt.

Anyone else wonder what is going to come of the difference in Daniel's 305 bearing for Frank and Ben's 325 for Michael?

We saw that 305 indeed leads out the "snowglobe" so to speak, so did Ben send Michael to live with the Dinosaurs, or to his death, or off the edge of the world, or could it be a legit bearing and the difference deals with sky versus sea?

There could be a few specific "paths" out of the bubble. Maybe you have to use 325 by water and 305 by air?

I believe that your exit need to follow an equal and opposite exit.
If you come in on a bearing of XY then you need to follow the
same way out.

i reckon Ben sent Mike and Walt a few years into the past.

to get redemption Mike has been trying to rescue the Losties ever since he got back,,,,,nobody took him seriously until 815 actually crashed,just like he said it would.Once it crashed,he made sure he was on the freighter.

or perhaps the bearing was slightly different depending on where you departed from

I just read in a different topic that maybe Dan's 305 was off a bit and this is why Des started jumping more obviously than before. But, Frank's bearing indicator seemed to shift to 310 when he was flying through the "Thunder", so maybe Dan's 305 is right and Frank's not being able to hold the bearing all the way through the exit is what caused Des' jumps.

It did seem sort of like the Heli may have flown through the side of an exit portal, like it had entered the portal correctly, but instead of making it straight through, the heli moved out of the portal "wall" sideways as it veered to 310.

All speculation, and I didn't see concrete evidence to ponder per se, but these discrepancies warrant pondering, me thinks :)

Well, two things:

One, I think it all has to do with the course/trajectory/approach to the island. Somehow, Oceanic Flight 815 must have come in in such a way that the passengers were not subject to the "wrinkle in time", at least not enough to cause "the sickness". It is interesting that some of them do seem to have vivid precognitive dreams, though, such as Locke dreaming of the little Nigerian plane before he ever saw it, and that dream also included information about something in Boone's past, namely Teresa, that Locke couldn't have known about...but then again, Locke is actually "special", so the Teresa part was probably unrelated to the time anomaly part. Claire had a dream in "Raised by Another" in which Locke admonishes her for giving Aaron away, and says everybody pays now...was that precognitive of whatever happens in the future, resulting in Kate ending up with Aaron and the Oceanic Six being so spiritually, morally and psychologically tortured off-island? In other words, perhaps even when you come into the island via a perfect trajectory for avoiding the worst effects of the time anomaly and the actual, full-blown time "sickness", you still are going to have a heightened ability for precognitive dreams, etc.

Two, I think Danielle's ship must have come in in a very bad way in the sense of bringing on the sickness, and she was the only one who didn't get it, because the sickness doesn't affect everyone, as was stated in "The Constant". Even when several people are exposed to it via somehow traversing the "wrinkle in time" in a way that makes it very likely to "unstick" you in time, they won't all get unstuck in time. Look at Sayid. He was still grounded in the present. Same with Danielle. But Desmond, who had been massively exposed to a magnetic force and/or radiation when the hatch imploded, he was somehow very vulnerable to the effects of the time anomaly.

omg, GREAT episode!

Some people seem to be immune. Didn't Henry Gale write that his wife had the illness? Then again, he came by aire. . . maybe you have to be a certain amount above or below the surface of the water. maybe there is a field on the surface of the water. this makes me scared for Walt.
That was Bens story, Henry Gales wife was never actually on the Island.

I think what happened to Des has a direct connection with him having spent 3 years in the Swan, being exposed to EM for three years obviously had some sort of effect, and why didn't anyone mention this to Daniel?
Could Dhamra have sent people into the swan to see how the would react leaving the Island?

Des was also exposed to massive amounts of EM when the Hatch imploded

Can someone please provide a screenshot of the bearings that Frank was following? That yellow piece of notebook paper that was taped to the helicopter dash...

When Ben gave Walt and Michael the boat to leave the island, I'm almost positive he mentioned the number 3.25 which are some of the same numbers that Frank had on that yellow piece of paper which was provided by Daniel. Same bearings..?

Frank was heading at a 305 bearing according to his instrumentation. I don't have a screen cap. I'm pretty sure this was the same bearing that Ben told Michael to follow?

Frank 305
Michael 325

It has been noted that maybe you must follow the
same compass bearing or equal and opposite one,
then you did coming in.

Come in at XY, then you must leave at that bearing
as well. Might Ben know the bearing that 815 came
in at?!

Yea they said in the episode, he asked the question have you been exposed recently to high doses of EM and he had, the hatch imploded. So when he went off the island he had those side effects occur.

Frank 305
Michael 325

It has been noted that maybe you must follow the
same compass bearing or equal and opposite one,
then you did coming in.

Come in at XY, then you must leave at that bearing
as well. Might Ben know the bearing that 815 came
in at?!

That's an excellent point! Maybe since Flight 815 came in a certain bearing, say 305 for example, Ben told Michael and Walt to leave at 325 so that they would experience the wacky time-consciousness shifts that Des is experiencing.

And to add to that point, if Sayid came in at bearing 305 with Flight 815 and left at bearing 305 on the helicopter, he's perfectly fine. Whereas Desmond came in at one bearing (on his sailboat) and left at a different one, so now he's all screwed up.

Yes, Faraday said it affected people who had been exposed to EM.

I thought it was interesting that when Faraday asked if Des had been exposed to large amounts of electromagnetism, Jack looked at him like "huh?". I guess the Losties still don't know that was what the "purple sky" was about.

That's an excellent point! Maybe since Flight 815 came in a certain bearing, say 305 for example, Ben told Michael and Walt to leave at 325 so that they would experience the wacky time-consciousness shifts that Des is experiencing.

And to add to that point, if Sayid came in at bearing 305 with Flight 815 and left at bearing 305 on the helicopter, he's perfectly fine. Whereas Desmond came in at one bearing (on his sailboat) and left at a different one, so now he's all screwed up.

What about Frank? How do we know he came in at 305? that would be a huge coincidence.....

Maybe Ben had Walt take 325 to send them a bit into the future....

Daniel told frank to fly on a bearing of 305, and his note on the helicopter shows instructions to head north at 305....

same directions as the "magical carvings" on eko's stick:
"Lift your eyes up and look north" -john 305

Maybe they found the flame by accident and ekos carving was really meant to tell them about the freighter?

Daniel told frank to fly on a bearing of 305, and his note on the helicopter shows instructions to head north at 305....

same directions as the "magical carvings" on eko's stick:
"Lift your eyes up and look north" -john 305

Maybe they found the flame by accident and ekos carving was really meant to tell them about the freighter?

Nice recall about eko's stick!

Maybe bearing 305 is the bearing that should be taken no matter what, so that you will not be affected by the time shifts. Perhaps Frank (through Daniel) already knew this which was why he came in on bearing 305.

Furthermore, perhaps the pilot of Flight 815 was told to fly on bearing 305.

Most people came in the air, or underwater in a sub. Maybe it does have to do with coming in accross the ocean (Desmond, Danielle's team)

Nice recall about eko's stick!

Maybe bearing 305 is the bearing that should be taken no matter what, so that you will not be affected by the time shifts. Perhaps Frank (through Daniel) already knew this which was why he came in on bearing 305.

Furthermore, perhaps the pilot of Flight 815 was told to fly on bearing 305.

Frank was following a 305 heading out, he wouldnt have used it to enter (305-180 = 125 enter heading)...
The only way Frank can use 305 to enter and leave (which would lead in only one direction) is due to a weird property of the island's mag field.

On their approach to the storm they're clearly more on a 310 bearing and I think that caused Des' side effects.

Remember the Cable??? What if it is laid down in a way to "connect" the island to the real world so that a Submarine could always follow the cable on and off the island to make sure they always stay on the same course to prevent the "sickness".

I dont believe everything Rousseau says, she is plain crazy herself.

I have a question, doesnt it seem that people are ok when they land on the island, it is leaving the island that causes the sickness. It is the coming and going from the island on the same trajectory that is important to avoid the sickness. Although the constant would explain alot of our flashes from the past, you know the casket, horse, typewriter, guitar...etc.

My Dad flew all over the world in the 40's. He's asking me something like, "Why would Daniel say to fly out at the same bearing? That would be like flying right over and out. Wouldn't you fly the reverse bearing, if there was a window?"

I suggested that maybe one might fly/submarine/boat as if the island wasn't there...

Most people came in the air, or underwater in a sub. Maybe it does have to do with coming in accross the ocean (Desmond, Danielle's team)
Well, Desmond's "sickness" (i.e., becoming "unstuck" in time) started in the helicopter,* so in the air, but then again, the chopper was probably flying much lower than the plane. That said, again, I think it is more to do with that you have to follow an exact/precise course and not deviate, even slightly. You notice that they showed us the copter's instrument panel and one thingy (technical term there for one gauge *lol*) showed that the "needle" (can you see my technical savvy here?) was veering just a smidge off center, and it was just after that, that Des came unstuck in time. And remember when Ben told Michael that he had to follow the EXACT coordinates that he was provided?

I think it has to do with following the precise course....and see my post (post #5) in the thread about the numbers, for more on that, here: http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=90519

* edited to add: ...although actually Des' symptoms started after the hatch explosion...gotta go, boss ALERT!

Why weren't any 815ers affected by travel to the island? Is it only if you travel by sea that you are affected? ... and ... Did Desmond get the sickness from leaving by helicopter because he was suseptible becasue of his exposure? How did the Dharma folk keep from getting it?

The 815ers may have been affected. Wasn't Claire getting sick at the end of last season?

I think it has something to do with the injections they were giving themselves. (Des gave himself every day in the hatch, Charlie gave Aaron... have we seen other instances? I forget.)

I do love the idea that air travel affects them differently than by sea or sub. Interesting!

Now, Michael & Walt 'exited' the island by following the exact bearing that they were given.... by Ben. So, do we really believe that Ben would send them to the correct bearing which would lead to them returning to the proper time period.... 2004 after the crash? Personally, I think it would be much more like Ben to send them to coordinates which would have them ending up at a time and place where he could meet them, off the island, to explain and to enlist their help in assuring the island remain hidden and unknown.

If this is so, than it seems even more likely that either Michael or Walt is the 'man' on the boat because it would all be a part of the master plan that Ben has in regards to the freighter... which he could have easily learned about by traveling forward to this point in time. Once he found out a freighter would be coming, he needed to figure out how to get an upper hand, and thus used Michael and Walt. He sent them back in time just enough to be a pat of the freighter mission.

This whole thing also goes a long, long way towards explaining, "Walt... only taller"

The 815ers may have been affected. Wasn't Claire getting sick at the end of last season?

I think it has something to do with the injections they were giving themselves. (Des gave himself every day in the hatch, Charlie gave Aaron... have we seen other instances? I forget.)

I do love the idea that air travel affects them differently than by sea or sub. Interesting!

I agree!! Remember the quote on the Blast Door ---- Aegrescit medendo, which means "The disease worsens with the treatment," "The remedy makes the disease worse," "The remedy is worse than the disease," or "He becomes ill by being cured,"

Something has to do with the injections, like a radioactive substance or something like that.... something that is worse than the sickness????

The way I understand it, it is a combination of prolonged EM exposure PLUS travel through the EM field surrounding the island.

Desmond had prolonged exposure while working the Swan station. When it blew, he passed through the field as it burst forth around him. On the chopper, he passed through it again. Both times he time slipped.

Dan had the prolonged exposure to EM through his experiments. Then he passed through the field when he arrived to the island.

Danielle's team was studying TIME. Perhaps the other members of her team had prolonged exposure to EM too. Since she was pregnant, she avoided the danger of EM exposure. When the boat came to the island, they too passed through the field.

I think it could have to do with the fact that a boat passes slowly through the field, while a plane shoots through quickly - less exposure time. In Desmonds case he had a LOT of super close-up exposure when the hatch blew. So it wouldn't take as much now to trigger a slip.

Danielle's team was studying TIME. Perhaps the other members of her team had prolonged exposure to EM too. Since she was pregnant, she avoided the danger of EM exposure. When the boat came to the island, they too passed through the field.

Exactly what I was thinking - you beat me to it! If they were doing any sort experiments involving radiation, she would have been kept away because she was pregnant, but probably would be the only one with a reason to keep away, thus she was the only one not to go nuts after passing through the field.

As for the losties, so many people died in the crash that some of them could have possibly gotten the flashes if they had survived, but the 42 survivors hadn't had radiation exposure so they were all ok. It seems like its pretty uncommon to have a lot of radiation exposure for an average person, so the lifelihood that the 42 survivors would be radiation-free is pretty high. Rose is the only question mark, if she were getting radiation treatment for her cancer, she could have been affected.

I was just thinking about the whole issue with the Desmond and how this "magical" storm will mess people up when they pass through it. The submarine being underwater would not be passing through this storm making it safe for the others to come and go.

yeah that's true, but what about trying to keep the island more secretive. A submarine would be invincible from a plane or nearby boats. While a huge boat would stick out if it is near the island.

That and submarines are just super cool :)

I believe the ONLY use for the submarine is to travel back and forth between the dock and the Looking Glass. The Looking Glass is the key to travel back to the rest of the world.

I think there is interference underwater too, it's just safer way to travel compared to boat or chopper/aeroplane.

I think there is interference underwater too, it's just safer way to travel compared to boat or chopper/aeroplane.

Yes, and Richard told Juliet that she'd have to drink that tranquilizer orange juice because the sub would get rough along the way.

That makes a lot of sense. If that's true, it proves that the time-scramble happens only inside the storm, but once you're out of the storm, time goes back in sync.

Dan wasn't able to accurately remember 3 cards so why should we believe he could remember 3 digits. He got 2 of the 3 cards right. Maybe he only got 2 of the 3 digits right.

i reckon Ben sent Mike and Walt a few years into the past.

to get redemption Mike has been trying to rescue the Losties ever since he got back,,,,,nobody took him seriously until 815 actually crashed,just like he said it would.Once it crashed,he made sure he was on the freighter.If that was the case, why wouldn't Michael have just stopped them from boarding in the first place?

Dan wasn't able to accurately remember 3 cards so why should we believe he could remember 3 digits. He got 2 of the 3 cards right. Maybe he only got 2 of the 3 digits right.He probably would have written such an important number down instead of just relying on his questionable memory. Plus presumably Frank would have some recollection of the bearing he took to get there, assuming he was given a specific trajectory on the way in.

I think it's safe to say that 325 is the correct course. It's what Ben gave Michael when he was doing his "a deal's a deal" thing, so I don't think he would lie - if he wanted Michael dead he could have just had him shot there and then and kept the boat. But it's also the exact angle of the arrow on the Swan Mural. And the angle of the hands on the clock when they did a close-up at Ben's. And also the number of people on Flight 815 if you count Aaron. 325 is the number. Like others have suggested, perhaps they got it slightly wrong.

:58: Of course ! That is why the days don't match with the date on the calendar. They went back 2 days as a result of the difference.

That makes a lot of sense. If that's true, it proves that the time-scramble happens only inside the storm, but once you're out of the storm, time goes back in sync.

"Time-scramble." I like that. I think I'll start using that in conversations around the house. I'll let you know how it plays out.

P. S. Yeah, subs are cool. I don't think Locke blew it up. I think it's going to "re-surface" again later in the show.

And maybe, just like there is a bearing in the sky to enter and exit the Island, there is a bearing underwater that leads to a "hole" in the barrier.

I think it's safe to say that 325 is the correct course. It's what Ben gave Michael when he was doing his "a deal's a deal" thing, so I don't think he would lie - if he wanted Michael dead he could have just had him shot there and then and kept the boat. But it's also the exact angle of the arrow on the Swan Mural. And the angle of the hands on the clock when they did a close-up at Ben's. And also the number of people on Flight 815 if you count Aaron. 325 is the number. Like others have suggested, perhaps they got it slightly wrong.

:58: Of course ! That is why the days don't match with the date on the calendar. They went back 2 days as a result of the difference.

I agree with you, I believe since Ben is able to bring people to the island and make them leave safely, he should be able to have the correct bearings. Dan knew there were side effects because of his experiments and he could not pinpoint the right path, but maybe a close one that may have miminal effects to a person.

If that was the case, why wouldn't Michael have just stopped them from boarding in the first place?

He probably would have written such an important number down instead of just relying on his questionable memory. Plus presumably Frank would have some recollection of the bearing he took to get there, assuming he was given a specific trajectory on the way in.

That's what I was thinking. Dan told Frank to make sure to leave on the bearing they came in from. He didn't say a number at that point. I presume they worked out the bearing on the boat, before coming to Island. Since they seemlingly got to the Island (okay - I suppose) it did seem that the bearing was correct.

I agree with you, I believe since Ben is able to bring people to the island and make them leave safely, he should be able to have the correct bearings. Dan knew there were side effects because of his experiments and he could not pinpoint the right path, but maybe a close one that may have miminal effects to a person.

I also think Dan may have it slightly off, which has effects, but not major. But, if his bearing is slightly off, well, I really don't know what that suggests. Maybe the "entrance/ exit" portal ranges from 300 to 350 degrees and 325 is the best way through with the least side effects. I dunno.

The two bearings have been presented with affirmation, it seems. Ben seemed sure about 325, and Dan and Frank seem confident about 305, which is why I started the thread. I really still have no theory about this. It was strange and subtle.

The bearings would be different because the vehicles didn't leave from the same place. If the helicopter was to take off from the same pier as the boat, it would require the same bearing to end up in the same place. But as they left from different places, the bearing wouldn't be the same. Unless I am missing something.

or perhaps the bearing was slightly different depending on where you departed from

Im 100% with you on this. I think the bearing just like anything else in our universe is all relative.
Another thing, a 305 bearing out SHOULD mean that they came IN on a 125 heading. Now, Daniel tells Frank to follow the same bearing they came in on... this is where it gets tricky... does Daniel mean to follow the exact same bearing out (reversed 125 + 180) 305?? or the EXACT same bearing they used to enter (might have used to enter) 305 out???
If Danny meant the second option, then this island is a lot more weirder than I thought.
I now remember that scene with (I think) Jack and Sayid w/ the compass.
; )






"Welcome to Craphole Island, ill be you host this evening ; )"

What makes us think that the Freighties have the correct heading coming into the island?

Naomi crashed. Frank almost did. (Charlotte parachuted out).

Also, Minkowski went back and forth to the island on the bearing he thought was correct. He died.

Maybe Ben is right (325) and the Freighties, namely Faraday, are wrong (305). Sorry Daniel.

Remember how emphatic Daniel was when he gave the heading to Frank. Maybe Daniel knew this sequence of events (starting with his bad heading) is what leads Des to connect with Daniel in the past? And therefore reunite with Penny?

This is why Time Travel stories always give me a headache - the logic always ends up circular.

Anyone else wonder what is going to come of the difference in Daniel's 305 bearing for Frank and Ben's 325 for Michael?

We saw that 305 indeed leads out the "snowglobe" so to speak, so did Ben send Michael to live with the Dinosaurs, or to his death, or off the edge of the world, or could it be a legit bearing and the difference deals with sky versus sea?

Thank you for posting this Golf Fan, this is something I have been confused about since watching The Constant!! I have brought this up on other threads and it seems some people have answered that maybe the portal is not a straight line up and down but is angled, therefore at sea level, it's a bearing of 325 and at 2000 feet(per Sayid) it's 305.

The other issue, related to these different bearings is regarding speculation that Michael is on the freighter. How would Michael encounter the Freighter if he left at 325 and yet it's located closer to the 305 bearing? 305 is just west of NW and 325 is just north of NW, so I don't think Michael would even have crossed paths with the Freighter. The only way I would think that Michael may have ended up on the Freighter was if when Michael's boat made it through the portal, a ship suddenly appeared on their radar and they went to investigate.

I do hope the 305 vs 325 bearing is addressed in the future. I don't think it's an error, but that there is a good explanation for it and we just haven't been told what it is yet.

What makes us think that the Freighties have the correct heading coming into the island?

Naomi crashed. Frank almost did. (Charlotte parachuted out).

Also, Minkowski went back and forth to the island on the bearing he thought was correct. He died.

Maybe Ben is right (325) and the Freighties, namely Faraday, are wrong (305). Sorry Daniel.

Remember how emphatic Daniel was when he gave the heading to Frank. Is it possible Daniel gave bad info on purpose? Like an evil experiment? He doesn't seem like the type, but stranger things have happened in this island. Or maybe he knew this sequence of events (starting with the bad heading) would reunite Des and Penny?

Well, Naomi didn't know the correct bearing, she said she was flying and the clouds cleared and then all of a sudden the island was beneath her, isn't that right, or am I remembering incorrectly?

The reason why the Frank et al had problems I believe was due to the storm, but they must have had the correct bearing because they made it to the island.

Do we know that Minkowski had the correct bearing? I don't think we know of exactly when he left to "explore" Was it before or after Jack made contact so they could get the correct bearing? I think it was before Jack made that call.

seems to me that 305 aint even close to 325. Yeah they're both NorthWest, but if your headed by the azimuth bearing it seems you'd wanna be pretty exact. not 20 degrees off!

I think 325 probably takes you to a different place or time than 305. I think it is the case that it is the direction of travel (the heading) that really matters, more than finding a specific spot. However, if the latter is true, then it is possible that a 14-mile lateral difference of starting point could make 305 and 325 take you to the same location after 40 miles. (And Frank's compass did indeed read 305, which seemed to head directly into the thunderhead.)

What I find far more interesting is that 305 was also the heading that "the island" gave to Locke, from Eko's stick. "Lift up your eyes and look to the North, John, 305."

I think 325 probably takes you to a different place or time than 305. I think it is the case that it is the direction of travel (the heading) that really matters, more than finding a specific spot. However, if the latter is true, then it is possible that a 14-mile lateral difference of starting point could make 305 and 325 take you to the same location after 40 miles. (And Frank's compass did indeed read 305, which seemed to head directly into the thunderhead.)

What I find far more interesting is that 305 was also the heading that "the island" gave to Locke, from Eko's stick. "Lift up your eyes and look to the North, John, 305."

Thanks Pythagoras, I was wondering if it could have been as simple an explanation as the bearings being different because Michael and Frank left from different areas.

You're also right, about the quote on Eko's stick. Locke believed it was meant for him to find Mikail, but could it have a double meaning?

I was just thinking about the whole issue with the Desmond and how this "magical" storm will mess people up when they pass through it. The submarine being underwater would not be passing through this storm making it safe for the others to come and go.

This might also explain why Juliette was sedated for her trip to the Island

I think the sub follows the "cable" to and from the island to make sure it stays on the same course.

And yes, subs are very cool.

What has always bothered me about the sub was the distance/speed factor. For a huge chunk of metal weighing hundreds/thousands of tons, a sub goes fairly fast underwater.. but still, its slow. Juliet was drugged for the journey, because it can be "intense/bumpy". Exactly how long can someone be drugged?? hmm
Then we have TDI bear in Tunisia and the C.S. Lewis factor/Rabbits.
The sub was probably used, but something is definitely smelling like a fish biscuit ; )





"Welcome to Craphole Island, ill be your host this evening"

I think 325 probably takes you to a different place or time than 305 ...

What I find far more interesting is that 305 was also the heading that "the island" gave to Locke, from Eko's stick. "Lift up your eyes and look to the North, John, 305."

Interesting thread. I agree with you on the different bearing in/out takes you to a different point on the timeline.

It would seem that bearing 305 is the one our Losties need to take if they're going to get back to their correct point on the timeline ... and not just get off the Island in any random point on the timeline.

I think we're going to be seeing and hearing a lot more about these bearings, and what the implications are if one takes the wrong one in ... or the wrong one out.

Maybe Ben knew where the freighter was AT THAT TIME. In other words, 325 would take Michael right to it. NOW, however, the freighter is in a different location, hence a new bearing.

The bearings would be different because the vehicles didn't leave from the same place. If the helicopter was to take off from the same pier as the boat, it would require the same bearing to end up in the same place. But as they left from different places, the bearing wouldn't be the same. Unless I am missing something.

You said it first, and it makes a lot of sense along with Pythagoras' further explanation.

I think 325 probably takes you to a different place or time than 305. I think it is the case that it is the direction of travel (the heading) that really matters, more than finding a specific spot. However, if the latter is true, then it is possible that a 14-mile lateral difference of starting point could make 305 and 325 take you to the same location after 40 miles. (And Frank's compass did indeed read 305, which seemed to head directly into the thunderhead.)

What I find far more interesting is that 305 was also the heading that "the island" gave to Locke, from Eko's stick. "Lift up your eyes and look to the North, John, 305."

Thanks Pythagoras, and how fitting that you'd give us a triangular explanation ;) That makes a lot of sense, especially to me. I have in my mind that the thunderhead was the point they were aiming for, as in it was a marker of a strange and anomolic portal in space. Two different starting points, both aiming at that thunderhead, two different straight line bearings. BRILLIANT! :biggrin:

And Eko's stick, great catch as well. I think, however, that this leaves open an explanation that may debunk the starting point theory - Given that the reference on the stick does not indicate relation to a specific starting point so much as a direction. However, this doesn't necessarily debunk the starting point issue. And, for now, it seems the most plausible explanation - the one that eases the headache so to speak.

BTW, did I hear one of your fan questions answered on a Darlton Podcast? ISTR hearing your username rather than just reading it. Hmm, Maybe I'm just coming down with a case of the Farraday's...

I am pretty sure that from what Daniel said, you need to follow the exact same bearing you came in on.

On their approach to the storm they're clearly more on a 310 bearing and I think that caused Des' side effects.
Des had side effects from being exposed to electro-magnetism. He had to find his constant to bring him back to "normal". Hope he is good to go now!

Danielle's team was studying TIME. Perhaps the other members of her team had prolonged exposure to EM too. Since she was pregnant, she avoided the danger of EM exposure. When the boat came to the island, they too passed through the field.


Danielle said the members of her team got sick after visiting the Black Rock. Perhaps it landed (or was pulled toward) a center of intense EM activity.

The episode laid down the rules for getting sick. You have to be exposed to radiation or electromagnetism prior to leaving the island to get sick. The only one on the island that has been exposed and has left is Desmond.

i think that 'safe passage' is to do with co-ordinates. entering or leaving at a specific point. like the co-ordinates ben gave to michael, and the fact that ben, richard etc. can skip on and off the island unscathed.

what ever caused the 'barrier' was shut down when desmond didn't get back to the hatch in time when the plane crashed, hence the passengers were ok.

BTW, did I hear one of your fan questions answered on a Darlton Podcast?
Yes! I was quite freaked!

Remember the Cable??? What if it is laid down in a way to "connect" the island to the real world so that a Submarine could always follow the cable on and off the island to make sure they always stay on the same course to prevent the "sickness".

I dont believe everything Rousseau says, she is plain crazy herself.

I have a question, doesnt it seem that people are ok when they land on the island, it is leaving the island that causes the sickness. It is the coming and going from the island on the same trajectory that is important to avoid the sickness. Although the constant would explain alot of our flashes from the past, you know the casket, horse, typewriter, guitar...etc.

Wasn't the cable simply going to the Looking Glass from the island? More precisely, from the radio tower?

1) As they fly into the storm, while Desmond is looking at his photo, there are what look almost like luminous meteorites flying through the air behind him. They could perhaps be large hail stones in the high storm winds, but there was no hail hitting the chopper. It seemed odd.

2) Though it's very hard to make out in real-time because of the shaking, with the benefit of pausing, you can tell that Frank is holding to 305 degrees consistently until lightning hits the chopper (or near it), and it lurches. And while Frank says, "Damn... hold on", the compass is moving in a couple seconds from 305 all the way to 312 while an alarm goes off (possibly an alarm to indicate deviation from the set heading). And no sooner does Desmond grab his seat in response to Frank saying "hold on" than he wakes up in boot camp in 1996. So, as Faraday indicated, the side-effects were indeed caused by the brief deviation from the heading of 305, in conjunction with Desmond's previous "exposure." So if they had been able to maintain the proper course, he could have presumably made the journey without ill effect.. The day's delay may well have been due to the deviation as well, but there's not the same direct evidence for that.

This could be why it makes the most sense to travel by submarine. With air and sea surface travel, it can be nearly impossible to maintain a fixed heading in the middle of a storm.

Bingo. The more they stray from the correct bearing, the more time they would lose. The freighter and the island could have waited a week or two if they were more off course. Months...years?

Please see thread here (http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=90517) for more discussion on first question. I believed it to be snow, but it appears now that it may just be rain washing down off of the windshield.

I think the sub follows the "cable" to and from the island to make sure it stays on the same course.

And yes, subs are very cool.

There was a sonar beacon (stated in one of the eps) which failed along with comms to the outside world when the Swan imploded. That would make sense as it would allow you to come in on a very specific bearing assuming you started off from the correct point outside the barrier, with no danger of the EM field sending your navigation equipment awry. And with GPS, it would be very easy to make sure you were at the right 'start point' outside.

I still suspect that the sub was a bit of a fake-out though and that the top people in the Others have their own way on and off the Island, maybe something to do with the Looking Glass station orThe Orchid station.

So were Locke, Eko, and even Charlie to some extent. Eko seemed pretty unhinged by it, Locke far less so. So I think it affects people in different ways.

I'm going with the theory that, in general, accumulated EM exposure makes it far more likely you'll come unstuck in time, which explains Desmond's side effects. It does not, however, explain Minkowski's, unless he made repeated boat trips toward the island on the wrong bearing and possible exposed himself to huge amounts of radiation or EM in a very short period of time. It could be that the energy level of the fields is much higher off the island.

-bd

Des was also exposed to massive amounts of EM when the Hatch imploded

I'm going with the theory that, in general, accumulated EM exposure makes it far more likely you'll come unstuck in time, which explains Desmond's side effects. It does not, however, explain Minkowski's, unless he made repeated boat trips toward the island on the wrong bearing and possible exposed himself to huge amounts of radiation or EM in a very short period of time. It could be that the energy level of the fields is much higher off the island.
Minkowski worked in the radio room, which would mean he would have far higher long-term exposure to electromagnetic radiation than most people. Perhaps the other person who went on the boat with Minkowski worked in the radio room with him.

It's also interesting that Patchy similarly worked at a "listening station" before working for the Others, and would have been subject to a lot of EM radiation there, and on the island he lived alone at the DHARMA radio installation, which was far removed from the barracks and the rest of the population. ... as if it was set up to make sure that no one on the island received unnecessary exposure to EM radiation.

Please see thread here (http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=90517) for more discussion on first question. I believed it to be snow, but it appears now that it may just be rain washing down off of the windshield.
It does look a lot like snow. I'm watching the HD version, and I don't think there's any way it can be rain on the windshield. I made a HD animated gif, but it's pretty big, so I'm not sure where I could upload it to.

... And with GPS, it would be very easy to make sure you were at the right 'start point' outside....
Which makes it all the more curious that Omar says (just before they first open the sick bay door) "our last port was Fiji, so we are probably still in the Pacific".
With modern GPS navigation equipment, he would know exactly where the ship was, down to less than one square meter. So how could be unsure as to which ocean he was in?
I think there may some big surprises in store when the ship actually leaves to return to the U.S.
Snowglobes, anyone?

Which makes it all the more curious that Omar says (just before they first open the sick bay door) "our last port was Fiji, so we are probably still in the Pacific".
With modern GPS navigation equipment, he would know exactly where the ship was, down to less than one square meter. So how could be unsure as to which ocean he was in?

He's just a deck hand. I'm sure the captain knows exactly where they are. They're outside the portal/barrier, so I don't think there's anything unusually going on where the ship is currently. For that they need to head towards the portal, which is 7 km west of them, according to Faraday's diagram.

I am pretty sure that from what Daniel said, you need to follow the exact same bearing you came in on.

The only problem with this, is that it would lead you in a straight line away from the freighter NOT back towards it. In our world, 305 in would not be the same as 305 out. But maybe the island's properties is the x-factor to this.

1) As they fly into the storm, while Desmond is looking at his photo, there are what look almost like luminous meteorites flying through the air behind him. They could perhaps be large hail stones in the high storm winds, but there was no hail hitting the chopper. It seemed odd.

2) Though it's very hard to make out in real-time because of the shaking, with the benefit of pausing, you can tell that Frank is holding to 305 degrees consistently until lightning hits the chopper (or near it), and it lurches. And while Frank says, "Damn... hold on", the compass is moving in a couple seconds from 305 all the way to 312 while an alarm goes off (possibly an alarm to indicate deviation from the set heading). And no sooner does Desmond grab his seat in response to Frank saying "hold on" than he wakes up in boot camp in 1996. So, as Faraday indicated, the side-effects were indeed caused by the brief deviation from the heading of 305, in conjunction with Desmond's previous "exposure." So if they had been able to maintain the proper course, he could have presumably made the journey without ill effect.. The day's delay may well have been due to the deviation as well, but there's not the same direct evidence for that.

This could be why it makes the most sense to travel by submarine. With air and sea surface travel, it can be nearly impossible to maintain a fixed heading in the middle of a storm.

Thanks for this synopsis of the cockpit scene. So Frank does hold 305 pretty well except for the lurches? And, it appears that one of these slight, and brief deviations coincided with Des' "jump"? Considering that if Frank was off course for only even a second, or less, how much lateral distance (in the wrong direction) do you think he'd cover? That seems like a pretty tight portal, ya know?. Lends credence to the sub theories for exacting the course.

On another note, I can't wait til we get a bigger Egg that shows us some clue as to the portal properties. It sure seems like Frank and company flew in on a 125 (S) bearing for the flight out to be at 305, according to my interpretation of Dan's admonition to Frank. Of course my basis for this is that if there are two or more portals, I and others, have thought they'd be one way, and straight line opposites. So, in this case, the entrance would be at the south side of the Island snowglobe for the exit to be at 305.

In another post you mention that Dan's drawing indicates the Freighter is 7 km W of the portal? This is per the yellow "sticky" in the cockpit with the 305 "reminder"? If so, that would seem to indicate that this particular portal is two-way, yes?

Is it Thursday yet?

TTYL

ETA: CONGRATS on getting selected for the Podcast Q and A. I will have to listen again and pay closer attention to what question was yours :)

Why weren't any 815ers affected by travel to the island? Is it only if you travel by sea that you are affected? Clearly, the 4 freigheters were fine and they flew in. Did Desmond get the sickness from leaving by helicopter because he was suseptible becasue of his exposure? How did the Dharma folk keep from getting it? is under water- Submarine travel ok?

Soooooo many questions, despite the nice answers!

815 passengers crash landed in a ripped apart jet. I think they were affected, just a tad.

Ok so if leaving the island safely is highly dependent on the angle in which you leave and come in how would you do any of that in the submarine?

Great question. IMO, I think that from seeing how much trouble it is going off the island above sea level (snow, storms, lightning, etc), perhaps going via submarine, under water, makes for a smoother, more controllable ride which prevents the dementia that we are seeing in Des.

That's actually the biggest part to note, why haven't any of the "others" who have gone back and forth via sub ever had the 'sickness'? Julliette, Ben, Ethan, etc? This seems to be a good explanation.

The bearing can be easily read with boat, chopper or sub. Just follow the compass.

And you don't get any of those sticky weather situations when you're under water.

Was the bearing given to Michael & Walt the same as the bearing for the Helicopter? Perhaps there is some kind of a corridor to and from the island...:cool:

The bearing can be easily read with boat, chopper or sub. Just follow the compass.
The heading can be easily read regardless, but the point is to maintain the heading. You can't continuously maintain a heading in the middle of a storm, either with a ship or an aircraft. As frank demonstrated, the best you can do is make corrections when the weather buffets you in a different direction. So, yeah, a sub makes a lot of sense.

Was the bearing given to Michael & Walt the same as the bearing for the Helicopter? Perhaps there is some kind of a corridor to and from the island...:cool:
Nope, the heading was different from the one given to Michael, 305 vs 325. But the same as the one Locke got off Eko's stick.

This is precisely why the submarine was used. For whatever reason, the anomaly only exists above sea level. Otherwise, there would be no reason why Dharma wouldn't simply have used a normal boat.

This is precisely why the submarine was used. For whatever reason, the anomaly only exists above sea level. Otherwise, there would be no reason why Dharma wouldn't simply have used a normal boat.
A normal boat can be worse than an aircraft in a storm if there are large waves.

Nope, the heading was different from the one given to Michael, 305 vs 325. But the same as the one Locke got off Eko's stick. Wouldn't the appropriate bearing and resulting heading both vary depending on the starting point as well as the desired end point? Anyhow Ben sending Michael off on a heading that results in a prolonged delay due to slow time would have been a simple (but devious) way for him to both keep his word to Michael and dispose of Michael and Walt at the same time.

That's a good point...however I do not think the submarine is quite as easy as you might have it made out to be.

Remember in Juliet's first flashback she was getting on the submarine and Ethan had to basically tranquilize her? (In the office with Richard) She didn't wake up until she was actually at the island, when Juliet questioned this method, Ethan said that people usually get queasy the first time and that they have to be put to sleep.

Daniel told Frank to fly the helicopter off the island at a bearing of 305°. In "The Constant," they repeatedly showed the instrument panel and we can see that Frank flies out at 305°, just as Daniel wrote on the note.

On Eko's Scripture stick, he wrote, "Look to the north, John 3:05."

Interesting, huh? Bearing 305° is indeed to the north on a compass.

What's really interesting is that Ben told Michael to leave at a compass bearing of 325°.

Also of note is Miles telling Ben that he would lie to his employer and say that Ben was already dead -- if Ben gave Miles $3,200,000. Note that $3.2 million contains a 3, a 2, and FIVE zeros. Is this another way of indicating 325° using some kind of code? After all, Miles asked Kate to give him and Ben privacy and she refused.

I wonder if Ben deliberately gave a different bearing to Michael so that Michael and Walt would end up at a different time in the real world than what they expected. Hopefully, we will find out what happened to Michael and Walt soon.

That's really interesting -- hadn't noticed that till you said something. I'm pretty sure Ben gave Michael a different bearing because of Walt.

The thing about a bearing is that it all depends on where you are when you start heading in that direction.
Maybe 325 from the Pala ferry Dock leads to the same place as 305 from whereever the Helicopter took off from?

Lapidus' map from Faraday went in two directions...I think 305 for 30 k, then East for 7? whereas Michael was given just the straight out bearing of 325. Both could end you up in the same place. It is not a given that EVERYONE gets discabobulated for being off course. Sayid and Frank were okay.

I am currently against overall conclusions. Just cause it happened to one, doesn't make it happen to all.

But there is definately something about getting to and from the island. Such must be handled with care.

I saw a cow.
I killed a chicken.
I was on a ferris wheel.

Nice connection with Eko...makes you wonder if he wasn't speaking to the island himself...perhaps he knew all along that this bearing could get one off the island (though he likely didn't understand it).

Either that, or it was just some Biblical scripture and nothing more.

Daniel told Frank to fly the helicopter off the island at a bearing of 305°. In "The Constant," they repeatedly showed the instrument panel and we can see that Frank flies out at 305°, just as Daniel wrote on the note.

On Eko's Scripture stick, he wrote, "Look to the north, John 3:05."

Interesting, huh? Bearing 305° is indeed to the north on a compass.

What's really interesting is that Ben told Michael to leave at a compass bearing of 325°.

Also of note is Miles telling Ben that he would lie to his employer and say that Ben was already dead -- if Ben gave Miles $3,200,000. Note that $3.2 million contains a 3, a 2, and FIVE zeros. Is this another way of indicating 325° using some kind of code? After all, Miles asked Kate to give him and Ben privacy and she refused.

I wonder if Ben deliberately gave a different bearing to Michael so that Michael and Walt would end up at a different time in the real world than what they expected. Hopefully, we will find out what happened to Michael and Walt soon.

Um, I'm not a mariner or pilot but I think that a compass bearing of 305 is closer to west-northwest than to north. And a heading of 325 is closer to northwest by north. But what's interesting is that they both are 10 degrees from 315, which is the compass heading for northwest.

I really like your 3.2 million theory though. That would be a very effective way to communicate a compass heading without everyone knowing it. It might turn out to be meaningless but it's elegant nonetheless.

The thing about a bearing is that it all depends on where you are when you start heading in that direction.
Maybe 325 from the Pala ferry Dock leads to the same place as 305 from whereever the Helicopter took off from?

Actually, I don't think that's entirely correct. The whole point of using compass headings is so that you end up going in the right direction no matter which way you start out facing.

Or do you mean something like this? We're both inside of a large circle and we both want to get to a specific point on the circle. You're due south of the point and I'm southwest of the point. You would have to follow a heading of 360/0 to get to the point and I would have to follow a heading of 45 to get to the point. Despite the fact that we'd both be following different headings, we'd end up at the same point because we started at different points.

Yeah, you're right. Those two headings could take you to the same place if your jumping off point was different. Strike my original thought.