I think this episode calls for a "what we learned tonight" list. A lot happened in one short hour. My mind is a web of mush. I need a list.

We learned that time is the same on and off island.

Desmond's consciousness is doing the traveling.

Desmond became unstuck in time.

Daniel is also unstuck.

Daniel's lack of head covering during his experiments resulted in his memory loss.

What else?

Did we really learn that time is the same on and off island? I'm not convinced.

I would say that we learned why only six got off of the island. I believe that everyone who was on the beach at the time of the Fail Safe activation has to stay on the island or go through what Desmond did or worse the fate of Minkowski and the rat.

I would say that we learned why only six got off of the island. I believe that everyone who was on the beach at the time of the Fail Safe activation has to stay on the island or go through what Desmond did or worse the fate of Minkowski and the rat.

Aaron was on the beach with Claire. Maybe he's super special, but... Spoiler about the Oceanic Six... like... major spoiler

...Sun and Jin were also on the beach and they make it off the Island just fine apparently.

I'm also not so sure that Daniel's earlier experiments cased his memory loss. I took it as he knew it was all a cover-up, since he had met Desmond in 1996. And that he would end up going to the Island, knowing what happens to people that "cross the line", and therefore thinking that he wouldn't have a constant on the island.

Yes. Time is the same. Absolutely. There should be no doubt. There was a calendar. There was a freaking Christmas tree in Penny's living room.

(And don't tell me that it could have been simply "close" to Christmas Eve, but not exactly Christmas Eve in Penny's world. It was an obvious clue. And if it was just - "close" - to Christmas Eve... well big whoop. The time difference on/off-island is mere days. What a story! Besides, Desmond said he would call Penny on Christmas Eve. Be convinced, there is no time difference.)

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Claudia. Re-watch that episode. They weren't even close to the beach.

This actually makes sense... lots of sense.

Yes. Time is the same. Absolutely. There should be no doubt. There was a calendar. There was a freaking Christmas tree in Penny's living room.

(And don't tell me that it could have been simply "close" to Christmas Eve, but not exactly Christmas Eve. It was an obvious clue. And if it was just - "close" - to Christmas Eve... well big whoop. The time difference on/off-island is mere days. What a story!)
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Claudia. Re-watch that episode. They weren't even close to the beach.

This actually makes sense... lots of sense.

Explain the time difference between when the helicopter took off and landed - or Daniel's rocket?
I'm not convinced that time is the same. IMO, I think on Christmas Eve the two times will "align" in that it's the same day, but not the same year.

Yes. Time is the same. Absolutely.

Yep. And I'm so very glad.

Claudia. Re-watch that episode. They weren't even close to the beach.



Were they off on their expedition already? Yeah, you're probably right.

That still leaves Aaron though. Claire was holding Aaron when the hatch door landed on the beach.

Explain the time difference between when the helicopter took off and landed - or Daniel's rocket?
I'm not convinced that time is the same. IMO, I think on Christmas Eve the two times will "align" in that it's the same day, but not the same year.

It's the same day, the same year.

She said she has been looking for Desmond for 3 years. Desmond had been on the island for 3 years.

For my two cents, I'd say the boat was far enough away from "the time bubble" or whatever we will find out it is that the effects wouldn't be a problem. Minkowski and the dude who wound up in a body took the dingy out for a cruise. Possible a future flashback.

Explain the time difference between when the helicopter took off and landed - or Daniel's rocket?
I'm not convinced that time is the same. IMO, I think on Christmas Eve the two times will "align" in that it's the same day, but not the same year.
Exactly!
Also, on another thread was said "the nosebleeds (of Minkowski and Desmond) = The Sickness that Danielle referred to way back in Season 1.... "
I am not convinced they are the same sickness.

It's the same day, the same year.

She said she has been looking for Desmond for 3 years. Desmond had been on the island for 3 years.


Then explain the other discrepancies.

Maybe babies aren't affected because their cognitive ability isn't developed enough yet. I mean, we're talking consciousness here, so...

Explain the time difference between when the helicopter took off and landed - or Daniel's rocket?
I'm not convinced that time is the same. IMO, I think on Christmas Eve the two times will "align" in that it's the same day, but not the same year.
The chopper and rocket indicate something, but they do not indicate a time difference between our two worlds. Instead, think of what both of those entities have in common; what did each of them do?

We learned that time is the same on and off island.
Nope, this issue was never addressed.

Desmond's consciousness is doing the traveling.Yes.

Desmond became unstuck in time.? Not sure what you mean.

Daniel is also unstuck.? Again, not sure what you mean. Daniel & Des have a constant, is that what you're talking about? I'm not sure what "unstuck" in time means. Please explain.

Daniel's lack of head covering during his experiments resulted in his memory loss.I agree. Others don't.

The chopper and rocket indicate something, but they do not indicate a time difference between our two worlds. Instead, think of Yeswhat both of those entities have in common; what did each of them do?

Yes, yes, they both left/entered.

But you're telling me with all the numerous references to time ("lost time" Only fools are enslaved ... the watches, the radio with Sayid and Hurley, etc, etc) that it's all amounted to some "bubble" around the Island, where if you pass through it, wups, it's a little bumpy and you have to reset your watches, but other than that nothing happens?

Maybe babies aren't affected because their cognitive ability isn't developed enough yet. I mean, we're talking consciousness here, so...

If a rat was affected, a baby would be.

Time is not the same on the island as in the real world. Remember des's call to Penny was on the frieghter, not the island. WHen they landed Sayid asked why it was dusk when they left and mid day when they got to the frieghter.

Yes, yes, they both left/entered.

But you're telling me with all the numerous references to time ("lost time" Only fools are enslaved ... the watches, the radio with Sayid and Hurley, etc, etc) that it's all amounted to some "bubble" around the Island, where if you pass through it, wups, it's a little bumpy and you have to reset your watches, but other than that nothing happens?
Hey, if something convinces me otherwise in future episodes I will change my stance. I try to think like a scientist - given the evidence we have. What do we have now? We have a clear example of it being Christmas Eve of 2004 in both worlds. I'm sorry, but I'm sticking with this. Obviously, it can become more layered than how you put it... but I honestly do not believe in any sort of time difference.

Time is not the same on the island as in the real world. Remember des's call to Penny was on the frieghter, not the island. . It was made obvious that there's a time warp or bend or barrier of some sort between the freighter and the island. Therefore freighter time does NOT equal island time.
If time was the same at both places, why would there be all that weirdness in between?

If a rat was affected, a baby would be.

Yeah, I'm guessing unless Aaron is very, very special indeed, the effects on his brain would have to be the same since Eloise and Desmond's brain reacted in the same way.

Time is not the same on the island as in the real world. Remember des's call to Penny was on the frieghter, not the island. WHen they landed Sayid asked why it was dusk when they left and mid day when they got to the frieghter.
We know that it is Christmas Eve on the island. We've known this for months, years even. How? Because we've been counting the days since the crash, and we knew at the end of Season 3 that Christmas was coming real soon-like.

Sayid? Yeah, they "lost" time. They jumped a few hours because they didn't hit the coordinate exactly. They were close, so they didn't lose years... rather, they lost hours. That's why Daniel made it sound like such a big deal, when he told Frank before they left in the chopper... it is a big deal.

We have a clear example of it being Christmas Eve of 2004 in both worlds. . It's close to Christmas on the island, it's close to Christmas in London, it seems to be Christmas eve on the freighter - by a calendar with a bunch of different colored X's on it.
Where's the clarity in that?

Hey, if something convinces me otherwise in future episodes I will change my stance. I try to think like a scientist - given the evidence we have. What do we have now? We have a clear example of it being Christmas Eve of 2004 in both worlds. I'm sorry, but I'm sticking with this. Obviously, it can become more layered than how you put it... but I honestly do not believe in any sort of time difference.


Then think like a scientist! Even the evidence that you're using proves nothing.

Penny's flat - clearly Christmas Eve.
On the Freighter - clearly Christmas Eve.
They're both in the "real world". Why would there be an discrepancy there?
Yes the Losties have some idea about how long they've been on the Island (it isn't hard to keep track of days, i'm not alluding to them having longer days or anything, the counting of nights, or mornings would suffice in keeping track), but when Sayid left, it was dusk. When they landed? Mid-day? Only about 20 minutes had elapsed, and yet almost a whole day had passed on the Island.
100%
We know that it is Christmas Eve on the island. We've known this for months, years even. How? Because we've been counting the days since the crash, and we knew at the end of Season 3 that Christmas was coming real soon-like.

Sayid? Yeah, they "lost" time. They jumped a few hours because they didn't hit the coordinate exactly. They were close, so they didn't lose years... rather, they lost hours. That's why Daniel made it sound like such a big deal, when he told Frank before they left in the chopper... it is a big deal.


It is a big deal though - If roughly, we'll say 10 hours = 20 minutes (from Jack's POV, they left at dusk, and got the call the next day, and from Sayid's POV it was roughly 20 minutes) - that tends to add up significantly over a while.

It was made obvious that there's a time warp or bend or barrier of some sort between the freighter and the island. Therefore freighter time does NOT equal island time.
If time was the same at both places, why would there be all that weirdness in between?

So you can't have a time bend in the barrier only? Why not?

Then think like a scientist! Even the evidence that you're using proves nothing.

Penny's flat - clearly Christmas Eve.
On the Freighter - clearly Christmas Eve.
They're both in the "real world". Why would there be an discrepancy there?
Yes the Losties have some idea about how long they've been on the Island (it isn't hard to keep track of days, i'm not alluding to them having longer days or anything, the counting of nights, or mornings would suffice in keeping track), but when Sayid left, it was dusk. When they landed? Mid-day? Only about 20 minutes had elapsed, and yet almost a whole day had passed on the Island.
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It is a big deal though - If roughly, we'll say 10 hours = 20 minutes (from Jack's POV, they left at dusk, and got the call the next day, and from Sayid's POV it was roughly 20 minutes) - that tends to add up significantly over a while.

*mod edit* Desmond said he would call Penny in eight years - on Christmas Eve of 2004. Nothing in the episode, the script, their phone conversation made us belief that it wasn't Christmas Eve of 2004. Instead, we were given little clues - Sayid and the calendar, the Christmas tree, the fact that we (the viewers) have knew that "Day 98" would be Christmas Eve. *mod edit* Look, if two episodes from now I'm wrong... then I'm wrong. Big deal. I love the show and I'm enjoying where it's going... unlike last year at this time. *mod edit*

Putting the time subject aside for a moment (not that it's that easy :) ) , we also learned more about the Black Rock, did we not? Specifically that there is a journal out there that could be very revealing about the ship's journey to our island. Also.. that the family name is Hanso. Now that I write this, though, I wonder if this is something super obvious... feel free to say so if this is :)

I think, if you go with the people on the beach and near the Hatch HAVING to remain on the island... then this goes even farther toward explaining why Aaron IS off the island and why Claire IS NOT. Kate probably snuck Aaron onto the freighter (or whatever ends up rescuing them), and Claire was probably even for it.

Could also go a long way toward explaining why Kate is always so concerned to be away from Aaron. Maybe she's his constant at this point.

Sun Jin and Sayid were out on the boat to meet Jack and company at a designated area.

MOD note: this is not a spoiler but was seen in a previous season.

It's close to Christmas on the island, it's close to Christmas in London, it seems to be Christmas eve on the freighter - by a calendar with a bunch of different colored X's on it.
Where's the clarity in that?

Lostpedia has been counting the days. It appears they are spot on. Count 95 days or whatever it is from Sept 22 2004 and you get December 24th 2004.

Then you have the fact the calander has crosses for all of October, November and up to 23rd December 2004. Obviously they havent crossed off Christmas Eve as it is that day.

Couple this with the fact Desmond goes to 1996 and tells Penny he will call on Christmas Eve 2004, and that when he does, she has a Christmas tree.

I hope that its now clarified.
I believe the rocket and clock time discrepancy is of something to do with the bearings and the reason why you can only leave at 325 or 305 degrees or whatever it was.

*mod edit* Desmond said he would call Penny in eight years - on Christmas Eve of 2004. Nothing in the episode, the script, their phone conversation made us belief that it wasn't Christmas Eve of 2004. Instead, we were given little clues - Sayid and the calendar, the Christmas tree, the fact that we (the viewers) have knew that "Day 98" would be Christmas Eve. *mod edit* Look, if two episodes from now I'm wrong... then I'm wrong. Big deal. I love the show and I'm enjoying where it's going... unlike last year at this time. *mod edit*

*mod edit*
The "little clues" that you're referring to, are from one episode - and yet there are a multitude of "little clues" which lean towards time travel, are we just to discount those because, well this is Lost, and things usually are exactly as they appear? Hardly.

Aaron was on the beach with Claire. Maybe he's super special, but... Spoiler about the Oceanic Six... like... major spoiler

...Sun and Jin were also on the beach and they make it off the Island just fine apparently.

Jin and Sun were not on the beach. They were on Desmond's boat with Sayid. All of the Oceanic Six (If Jin and Sun are the last two) were far away from the hatch when the failsafe was activated.*****

Lostpedia has been counting the days. It appears they are spot on. Count 95 days or whatever it is from Sept 22 2004 and you get December 24th 2004.

Then you have the fact the calander has crosses for all of October, November and up to 23rd December 2004. Obviously they havent crossed off Christmas Eve as it is that day.

Couple this with the fact Desmond goes to 1996 and tells Penny he will call on Christmas Eve 2004, and that when he does, she has a Christmas tree.

I hope that its now clarified.
I believe the rocket and clock time discrepancy is of something to do with the bearings and the reason why you can only leave at 325 or 305 degrees or whatever it was.

Good luck. I've been stressing all three points for the last hour.

I'm more than willing to be wrong... but we'd better have a good explanation for the three pieces of evidence cited above.

Did we learn why walt could see things before they happened?

Chris0827, you reaaaaally need to use spoiler tags when discussing spoiler info on non-spoiler forums.

Originally Posted by beema http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/images/FuselageGreen/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?p=1789951#post1789951)
If a rat was affected, a baby would be.

BUT Aaron was born on the Island, where would his conscious jump to?

This is a really good thread with lots of interesting points and a lot to think about. Maybe we can all agree to disagree?

BUT Aaron was born on the Island, where would his conscious jump to?


Just ahead in time, like the rat.
Remember Dan said that he had only built that maze that morning, and wasn't planning on teaching her how to run it over another hour - so she presumably jumped an hour ahead. Aaron would likely due the same, if he was affected.

I think both ideas are right. Time is different and not different from island to real world. Here let me explain:

Time on the island and time in the real world are exactly the same. Same day, same year, same time. The discrepincy comes into play in the space between the island and the real world. There is where the time issues arise. If you take the exact cooridinates to get off the island then no time passes. Meaning you leave island and arrive in the real world at the same exact time. Although if you take another bearing then when you leave the island and arrive in the real world, the time is different.

Imagine getting off the island is a fork in the road. Let's say there are a million ways to get off the island. Road A takes 5 mins. Road B takes 45 minutes. Road J takes 6 years. Each road off the island leads you off the island its just that each road takes a certain amount of time to get off. This accounts for the time disprecpeny being there and not being there. It means if you take the coordinates Daniel said your off the island in twenty minutes. If you take another route with different coordinates it takes you years to get off the island. Although time is all relative to the passanger so to them its not like years have passed, but it has in the outside world and to their bodies.

This would explain why Lapidus, Sayid and Desmond left almost at night but got there the next day. Cause Frank got the coordinates almost right. He was off by one degree which then took them an extra few hours to reach the island. The further your away from the bearing, the longer it takes to leave the island. So time on the island and off is exactly the same but its the time between the two places which is different. This would explain the rocket which did not take the the exact cooridinates and took another route and because of that it took an extra 30 minutes to get to the island. So obviously if someone left the island from the opposite coordinates then it would be years later till they arrive in the real world.

Hopefully the rambling makes sense to everyone.

I think both ideas are right. Time is different and not different from island to real world. Here let me explain:

Time on the island and time in the real world are exactly the same. Same day, same year, same time. The discrepincy comes into play in the space between the island and the real world. There is where the time issues arise. If you take the exact cooridinates to get off the island then no time passes. Meaning you leave island and arrive in the real world at the same exact time. Although if you take another bearing then when you leave the island and arrive in the real world, the time is different.

Imagine getting off the island is a fork in the road. Let's say there are a million ways to get off the island. Road A takes 5 mins. Road B takes 45 minutes. Road J takes 6 years. Each road off the island leads you off the island its just that each road takes a certain amount of time to get off. This accounts for the time disprecpeny being there and not being there. It means if you take the coordinates Daniel said your off the island in twenty minutes. If you take another route with different coordinates it takes you years to get off the island. Although time is all relative to the passanger so to them its not like years have passed, but it has in the outside world and to their bodies.

This would explain why Lapidus, Sayid and Desmond left almost at night but got there the next day. Cause Frank got the coordinates almost right. He was off by one degree which then took them an extra few hours to reach the island. The further your away from the bearing, the longer it takes to leave the island. So time on the island and off is exactly the same but its the time between the two places which is different. This would explain the rocket which did not take the the exact cooridinates and took another route and because of that it took an extra 30 minutes to get to the island. So obviously if someone left the island from the opposite coordinates then it would be years later till they arrive in the real world.

Hopefully the rambling makes sense to everyone.

This is pretty much exactly what I'm thinking right now... but it's going to get more layered. We certainly cannot say we've "figured it out" in episode 4.5, when there are two and a half years left! But I'm still thinking this is close...

I think both ideas are right. Time is different and not different from island to real world. Here let me explain:

Time on the island and time in the real world are exactly the same. Same day, same year, same time. The discrepincy comes into play in the space between the island and the real world. There is where the time issues arise. If you take the exact cooridinates to get off the island then no time passes. Meaning you leave island and arrive in the real world at the same exact time. Although if you take another bearing then when you leave the island and arrive in the real world, the time is different.

Imagine getting off the island is a fork in the road. Let's say there are a million ways to get off the island. Road A takes 5 mins. Road B takes 45 minutes. Road J takes 6 years. Each road off the island leads you off the island its just that each road takes a certain amount of time to get off. This accounts for the time disprecpeny being there and not being there. It means if you take the coordinates Daniel said your off the island in twenty minutes. If you take another route with different coordinates it takes you years to get off the island. Although time is all relative to the passanger so to them its not like years have passed, but it has in the outside world and to their bodies.

This would explain why Lapidus, Sayid and Desmond left almost at night but got there the next day. Cause Frank got the coordinates almost right. He was off by one degree which then took them an extra few hours to reach the island. The further your away from the bearing, the longer it takes to leave the island. So time on the island and off is exactly the same but its the time between the two places which is different. This would explain the rocket which did not take the the exact cooridinates and took another route and because of that it took an extra 30 minutes to get to the island. So obviously if someone left the island from the opposite coordinates then it would be years later till they arrive in the real world.

Hopefully the rambling makes sense to everyone.


Makes sense to me.
The three locations are in sync. Its just the where you leave/enter that creates the time difference.

Theory here: Didn't Ben give Michael and Walt the coordinates 325, and Lapidus 305?
If Lapidus' bearings create less of a time difference, did Ben give Michael and Walt the bearing that would make them go into the past/future on purpose? To help Ben?

I don't think I worded it right so don't mind me...

I think both ideas are right. Time is different and not different from island to real world. Here let me explain:

Time on the island and time in the real world are exactly the same. Same day, same year, same time. The discrepincy comes into play in the space between the island and the real world. There is where the time issues arise. If you take the exact cooridinates to get off the island then no time passes. Meaning you leave island and arrive in the real world at the same exact time. Although if you take another bearing then when you leave the island and arrive in the real world, the time is different.

Imagine getting off the island is a fork in the road. Let's say there are a million ways to get off the island. Road A takes 5 mins. Road B takes 45 minutes. Road J takes 6 years. Each road off the island leads you off the island its just that each road takes a certain amount of time to get off. This accounts for the time disprecpeny being there and not being there. It means if you take the coordinates Daniel said your off the island in twenty minutes. If you take another route with different coordinates it takes you years to get off the island. Although time is all relative to the passanger so to them its not like years have passed, but it has in the outside world and to their bodies.

This would explain why Lapidus, Sayid and Desmond left almost at night but got there the next day. Cause Frank got the coordinates almost right. He was off by one degree which then took them an extra few hours to reach the island. The further your away from the bearing, the longer it takes to leave the island. So time on the island and off is exactly the same but its the time between the two places which is different. This would explain the rocket which did not take the the exact cooridinates and took another route and because of that it took an extra 30 minutes to get to the island. So obviously if someone left the island from the opposite coordinates then it would be years later till they arrive in the real world.

Hopefully the rambling makes sense to everyone.

Interesting. The only thing I don't think fits, is that you're saying that by not hitting the right co-ordinates, you're varying the time discrepancy between when you left, and when you arrive, correct? Then ... why is there a problem getting off the Island? I mean, even if you went the wrong way, you'd still end up back in the real world, perhaps just n# of years later - same with finding the Island, it wouldn't be hard to locate, the problem would be finding it in the time you intended. So I think there must be something more than just varying degrees of time.

This is a really good thread with lots of interesting points and a lot to think about. Maybe we can all agree to disagree?
Yes, Deeanne, it's all spec and it's all *good* spec.

Makes sense to me.
The three locations are in sync. Its just the where you leave/enter that creates the time difference.

Theory here: Didn't Ben give Michael and Walt the coordinates 325, and Lapidus 305?
If Lapidus' bearings create less of a time difference, did Ben give Michael and Walt the bearing that would make them go into the past/future on purpose? To help Ben?

I don't think I worded it right so don't mind me...
Yeah. I even mentioned (I think in a different thread) that Walt may have ended up in 2001 or 2002, explaining his "growth." (And... that is totally something Ben would do to put another card up his sleeve.) It all makes so much sense... but we should be careful for another twist!

Just ahead in time, like the rat.
Remember Dan said that he had only built that maze that morning, and wasn't planning on teaching her how to run it over another hour - so she presumably jumped an hour ahead. Aaron would likely due the same, if he was affected. I'm totally confused about how Aaron and the rat relate.
Aaron jumped an hour ahead? An hour ahead of what? When did he jump? Please clarify.

I'm totally confused about how Aaron and the rat relate.
Aaron jumped an hour ahead? An hour ahead of what? When did he jump? Please clarify.


Oh no, the post I was replying to wondered "where Aaron would jump", should this affliction affect him. The question was, since he had never been off the Island, where could he jump too. I said, that like the rat, he would move forward (or backwards, I suppose, not that that would be all that interesting), .

Interesting. The only thing I don't think fits, is that you're saying that by not hitting the right co-ordinates, you're varying the time discrepancy between when you left, and when you arrive, correct? Then ... why is there a problem getting off the Island? I mean, even if you went the wrong way, you'd still end up back in the real world, perhaps just n# of years later - same with finding the Island, it wouldn't be hard to locate, the problem would be finding it in the time you intended. So I think there must be something more than just varying degrees of time.

Well, as far as we know, thats not true now. Maybe the hatch prevented anyone trying to leave from doing so, unless they hit the coordinate that correlated with current time.

I think both ideas are right. Time is different and not different from island to real world. Here let me explain:

Time on the island and time in the real world are exactly the same. Same day, same year, same time. The discrepincy comes into play in the space between the island and the real world. There is where the time issues arise. If you take the exact cooridinates to get off the island then no time passes. Meaning you leave island and arrive in the real world at the same exact time. Although if you take another bearing then when you leave the island and arrive in the real world, the time is different.

Imagine getting off the island is a fork in the road. Let's say there are a million ways to get off the island. Road A takes 5 mins. Road B takes 45 minutes. Road J takes 6 years. Each road off the island leads you off the island its just that each road takes a certain amount of time to get off. This accounts for the time disprecpeny being there and not being there. It means if you take the coordinates Daniel said your off the island in twenty minutes. If you take another route with different coordinates it takes you years to get off the island. Although time is all relative to the passanger so to them its not like years have passed, but it has in the outside world and to their bodies.

This would explain why Lapidus, Sayid and Desmond left almost at night but got there the next day. Cause Frank got the coordinates almost right. He was off by one degree which then took them an extra few hours to reach the island. The further your away from the bearing, the longer it takes to leave the island. So time on the island and off is exactly the same but its the time between the two places which is different. This would explain the rocket which did not take the the exact cooridinates and took another route and because of that it took an extra 30 minutes to get to the island. So obviously if someone left the island from the opposite coordinates then it would be years later till they arrive in the real world.

Hopefully the rambling makes sense to everyone.

this makes total sense and is an awesome post! thanks for not derailing the thread, and instead actually making a fabulous contribution. i was thinking along the same lines as you, about hte time differentials, but probably couldn't have summed it up as well!

Well, as far as we know, thats not true now. Maybe the hatch prevented anyone trying to leave from doing so, unless they hit the coordinate that correlated with current time.

But would Ben know that? He gave Michael co-ordinates to leave the Island, but would Ben know the implications of leaving and returning after the swan detonated? By what we saw last episode, Ben has been off the Island before, and assumingly in the "correct" manner, as his "time" seems to be correct - but when Ben arrived to the Island, was the swan already in place?

The other thing that comes to mind, is that would explain how the black rock and Eko's brother's plane arrived from different times - not sure how that ties in, or for which side, exactly.

Didn't Daniel tell Jack that time was different on the island? I don't remember how he said it exactly but he was explaining to Jack that not as much time has passed since Sayid and Desmond left as it appears. That was a big clue to me that there is a time difference.

If you are on the island Desmond and Sayid took off hours ago. However on the freighter the Helicopter arrived as scheduled minus or plus a few minutes.

Since the freighter is NOT on the island and it's Christmas time there and in other parts of the world, I don't understand what that has to do with time on the island. Sayid did say he thought it was around Christmas time....But what year is it on the island? Since time is moving slower it could be December 24, 1988 on the island. The survivors are only aware of days and not years.

Didn't Daniel tell Jack that time was different on the island? I don't remember how he said it exactly but he was explaining to Jack that not as much time has passed since Sayid and Desmond left as it appears. That was a big clue to me that there is a time difference.

If you are on the island Desmond and Sayid have took off hours ago. However on the freighter the Helicopter arrived as scheduled minus or plus a few minutes.

Since the freighter is NOT on the island and it's Christmas time there and in other parts of the world, I don't understand what that has to do with that convincing people that time on the island is the same. Sayid did say he thought it was around Christmas time....But what year is it on the island? Since time is moving slower it could be December 24, 1988 on the island. The survivors are only aware of days and not years.

Mmmm... Dan said the way they perceived time was different. And I believe Sayid said he didn't know that it was that close to Christmas?

Since the freighter is NOT on the island and it's Christmas time there and in other parts of the world, I don't understand what that has to do with that convincing people that time on the island is the same. Sayid did say he thought it was around Christmas time....But what year is it on the island? Since time is moving slower it could be December 24, 1988 on the island. The survivors are only aware of days and not years.
The plane crashed in September 2004. Even Desmond's computer print-out showed that.

Addition: Based on what we know from lostpedia.com, it is very, very, very, very close to Christmas Eve on the island - if not exactly. This is why I have been arguing the stance that it is Christmas Eve 2004 in all three of our little worlds.

Didn't Daniel tell Jack that time was different on the island? I don't remember how he said it exactly but he was explaining to Jack that not as much time has passed since Sayid and Desmond left as it appears. That was a big clue to me that there is a time difference.

If you are on the island Desmond and Sayid have took off hours ago. However on the freighter the Helicopter arrived as scheduled minus or plus a few minutes.

Since the freighter is NOT on the island and it's Christmas time there and in other parts of the world, I don't understand what that has to do with that convincing people that time on the island is the same. Sayid did say he thought it was around Christmas time....But what year is it on the island? Since time is moving slower it could be December 24, 1988 on the island. The survivors are only aware of days and not years.


Desmond was gone for 3 years. Penny said she has been searching for him for 3 years. The years would then match up. The only way they would not match up would be if Penny was looking for Desmond for 3 years and he was only on island for 1 year.

I remember Daniel said something about the light falling differently there.

Jin and Sun were not on the beach. They were on Desmond's boat with Sayid. All of the Oceanic Six (If Jin and Sun are the last two) were far away from the hatch when the failsafe was activated.

Chris0827 You REALLY need to put spoiler tags on your post... whenever you are replying to a spoiler please add the tags to your own message... please go back and edit for any who do not want to read this.

this makes total sense and is an awesome post! thanks for not derailing the thread, and instead actually making a fabulous contribution. i was thinking along the same lines as you, about hte time differentials, but probably couldn't have summed it up as well!


thanks, this is just and incredible theory and discussion that it needs to keep going.

Desmond was gone for 3 years. Penny said she has been searching for him for 3 years. The years would then match up. The only way they would not match up would be if Penny was looking for Desmond for 3 years and he was only on island for 1 year.

If there is a time discrepancy on vs off Island, then Des's views of how long he's been there aren't that useful. Do we know after Des and Penny meet in the stadium how long it is before he actually leaves? Does Penny start searching when he leaves for the race around the world? Or when he doesn't return? I think those dates will be very telling.

If there is a time discrepancy on vs off Island, then Des's views of how long he's been there aren't that useful. Do we know after Des and Penny meet in the stadium how long it is before he actually leaves? Does Penny start searching when he leaves for the race around the world? Or when he doesn't return? I think those dates will be very telling.

Or does anyone know the day Jack got married because his ex wife states how long ago it was her fixed her and on that night he meet Desmond. If anyone knows that date, then that would solve this also

But would Ben know that? He gave Michael co-ordinates to leave the Island, but would Ben know the implications of leaving and returning after the swan detonated? By what we saw last episode, Ben has been off the Island before, and assumingly in the "correct" manner, as his "time" seems to be correct - but when Ben arrived to the Island, was the swan already in place?

The other thing that comes to mind, is that would explain how the black rock and Eko's brother's plane arrived from different times - not sure how that ties in, or for which side, exactly.


I really don't have anything more then speculation at this point in regards to your questions.

The picture we saw of Ben, from a few episodes ago, he looked to be dressed in late 70's early 80's garb. So maybe he can jump in time also. But unlike Desmond, maybe more then just his conscious can travel.

I don't think there is any real time period on when the swan was built, but we know the button was put in place after the 'incident". And if I'm not mistaken, that was after Ben had come to the Island.

That's about all the thoughts I have left in me tonight.

I thought Penny said she started searching for Desmond after speaking to Charlie.

I thought Penny said she started searching for Desmond after speaking to Charlie.
Speaking with Charlie convinced her that Desmond was still alive.

I really don't have anything more then speculation at this point in regards to your questions.

The picture we saw of Ben, from a few episodes ago, he looked to be dressed in late 70's early 80's garb. So maybe he can jump in time also. But unlike Desmond, maybe more then just his conscious can travel.

I don't think there is any real time period on when the swan was built, but we know the button was put in place after the 'incident". And if I'm not mistaken, that was after Ben had come to the Island.

That's about all the thoughts I have left in me tonight.

Maybe that's why they want Ben ... Maybe he went back in time and now knows something he shouldn't? Or has the answer to the valenzetti equation? Hmmm.
I wonder if the happenings in the stations were common knowledge?

Maybe that's why they want Ben ... Maybe he went back in time and now knows something he shouldn't? Or has the answer to the valenzetti equation? Hmmm.
I wonder if the happenings in the stations were common knowledge?

I was thinking actually that "I know what you can do" refers to Ben being able to somehow control this anomaly, or perphas he is able to always use the correct bearings in his off Island excursions, which would make him very valuable.

ok that makes sense to me. But there were so many references to time being different on the island because Jack and Juliette constantly remind us that the Helicopter should have landed by now and they should have had some contact from the freighter people.

How is that explained? I realize that time can bend in the area between the island and the freighter but how is time bent on the island?:undecide:

ok that makes sense to me. But there were so many references to time being different on the island because Jack and Juliette constantly remind us that the Helicopter should have landed by now and they should have had some contact from the freighter people.

How is that explained? I realize that time can bend in the area between the island and the freighter but how is time bent on the island?:undecide:
Maybe... a day and a half really did pass on the island, but Sayid and Desmond "skipped" that whole time. They literally jumped it, and re-caught up with Jack and the gang, back in real time, when they popped out of the hole. The whole time-skipping took a mere 20 minutes on their end, but time passed as usual for Jack.

Maybe... a day and a half really did pass on the island, but Sayid and Desmond "skipped" that whole time. They literally jumped it, and re-caught up with Jack and the gang, back in real time, when they popped out of the hole. The whole time-skipping took a mere 20 minutes on their end, but time passed as usual for Jack.

So Maybe that path is like a wormhole?

Did anyone recognize any of the other people at the book auction? I cant remember what the connection is between hanso and whidmore. There were probably more clues in that scene but my brain is fried from the time traveling conscience thing.

Did anyone recognize any of the other people at the book auction? I cant remember what the connection is between hanso and whidmore. There were probably more clues in that scene but my brain is fried from the time traveling conscience thing.
I paused the scene and scanned it closely. There are a couple of planted "ringers", but - nope, no one we've seen before.

Sorry if this has been said, I'm too tired to scroll through 8 pages...The BEST argument that island time and boat time/world time are the same, to me, is that Jack is able to talk to Sayid in real time via the phone. If time was elapsing at different rates in each place, wouldn't Jack's voice sound real fast and chipmunky or Sayid's be real slow?

People are acting like this episode gave us all the answers to the island but in true lost fashion, a bunch of new questions have been presented with these answers. Time is the same on and off the island apparently but it took the helicopter over a day to fly back from the island's point of view and only 20 minutes from the passengers. Why is that?

I suppose all the infomation we've gleaned form 'The Constant' explains why Juilet had to be drugged and strapped down in the sub when being taken to the Island. Perhaps the water acts as a kind of radiation shield, preventing the worst of the electromagnetism exposure, which Ethan et al would be probably used to, but to a first-timer like Juilet could pose a risk of getting 'unstuck', hence the need for her to be sedated.

We know that it is Christmas Eve on the island. We've known this for months, years even. How? Because we've been counting the days since the crash, and we knew at the end of Season 3 that Christmas was coming real soon-like.

Sayid? Yeah, they "lost" time. They jumped a few hours because they didn't hit the coordinate exactly. They were close, so they didn't lose years... rather, they lost hours. That's why Daniel made it sound like such a big deal, when he told Frank before they left in the chopper... it is a big deal.

I think this is where a lot of people are getting confused. We've "known" it to be around Christmas Eve simply because we've counted the number of times the sun has come up and went down and performed some simple math. However, that doesn't mean for a second that it doesn't only take 12 hours on the island (or some other absurd amount of time) for the apparent passage of a day.

So, yes, if they counted sun up / sun down as one day then they would think that it's almost Christmas. However, I can't believe that no one yet has mentioned Daniel's statement in the beginning that was to the effect of "your perception of how much time has passed for them isn't exactly accurate."

The point of this all is that maybe it should be Christmas according to what they can calculate but that doesn't mean that their bodies aren't aging at a faster/slower rate due to the apparent difference in the perception of the passage of time.

This would explain why Lapidus, Sayid and Desmond left almost at night but got there the next day. Cause Frank got the coordinates almost right. He was off by one degree which then took them an extra few hours to reach the island. The further your away from the bearing, the longer it takes to leave the island. So time on the island and off is exactly the same but its the time between the two places which is different. This would explain the rocket which did not take the the exact cooridinates and took another route and because of that it took an extra 30 minutes to get to the island. So obviously if someone left the island from the opposite coordinates then it would be years later till they arrive in the real world.

Hopefully the rambling makes sense to everyone.

Some bearings, maybe most of them, make you take an infinite amount of time to leave the island. In other words, you CAN"T leave the island if you don't use certain bearings.
That happened to Desmond on the Elizabeth and was referenced by Juliet with her comment about 'sailing in circles'.
BTW, What's up with her? Are you telling me that she didn;t ahve the slightest idea about this island's property? Why did she make that remark then?:confused:

Havok got it exactly right, I think. And, Fierro, you are saying it, too.

But the thing that is tripping people up is that time is the same on and off island, but since a change in bearing causes people to skip ahead (or back, possibly?) then the apparent time they are gone, and their apparent point of "reentry" is off. So it seems to Sayid, from his *perspective* that it jumped from night-to-day in a matter of 20 min, but from Jack's *perspective* Sayid has been "missing" or suspended in time for a day and half. See what I mean? It's all a matter of *where* you are experiencing it from.

So when people say "time is different" or out of sync between the island or off, they are not seeing the point. It's all "relative" to someone travelling between the points, and someone observing them from one of the endpoints.

Put another way, ALL time exists on both the island and outside. All that changes is the perspective, which is distorted by passing through the barrier, and causes the traveller to "deflect", based on the bearing. And THIS is what makes time travel happen.

Having said that, whatever Desmond is experiencing, while related somehow, is not a function of crossing a barrier. He is experiencing it while standing in one place. This aspect is a bit harder to define/explain, because it is more abstract.

Hope this makes sense (it does to *me* anyway! ;) )

This would explain why Lapidus, Sayid and Desmond left almost at night but got there the next day. Cause Frank got the coordinates almost right. He was off by one degree which then took them an extra few hours to reach the island. The further your away from the bearing, the longer it takes to leave the island. So time on the island and off is exactly the same but its the time between the two places which is different. This would explain the rocket which did not take the the exact cooridinates and took another route and because of that it took an extra 30 minutes to get to the island.

No, none of this explains why - seen from the freighter's POV - the rocket hit its target after 20 seconds.
If time was the same on and off the island, Regina should not have seen the rocket impact after 20 seconds, but after 31 minutes.

We assume it's christmas eve on the Island because the Losties do, we assume it's 2004 on the Island because the Losties do, They don't know for sure what year it is on the Island, I can't believe I just wrote that

Havok got it exactly right, I think. And, Fierro, you are saying it, too.

But the thing that is tripping people up is that time is the same on and off island, but since a change in bearing causes people to skip ahead (or back, possibly?) then the apparent time they are gone, and their apparent point of "reentry" is off. So it seems to Sayid, from his *perspective* that it jumped from night-to-day in a matter of 20 min, but from Jack's *perspective* Sayid has been "missing" or suspended in time for a day and half. See what I mean? It's all a matter of *where* you are experiencing it from.

So when people say "time is different" or out of sync between the island or off, they are not seeing the point. It's all "relative" to someone travelling between the points, and someone observing them from one of the endpoints.

Put another way, ALL time exists on both the island and outside. All that changes is the perspective, which is distorted by passing through the barrier, and causes the traveller to "deflect", based on the bearing. And THIS is what makes time travel happen.

Having said that, whatever Desmond is experiencing, while related somehow, is not a function of crossing a barrier. He is experiencing it while standing in one place. This aspect is a bit harder to define/explain, because it is more abstract.

Hope this makes sense (it does to *me* anyway! ;) )

Makes perfect sense to me, as does Havok's explanation. Thanks so much for clarifying.

By the same logic, I guess that means that , theoretically, people from any timeline could access the island by some means? Maybe time ON the island is the only real constant?

Let me just think this out out loud, sorry if I'm repeating the obvious.
To Desmond & Sayid they left the island at dusk, and arrived at the Freighter, and called Jack within hours, according to the ships' calendar it is Day 94, Christmas Eve. Sayid notes that they left the island at dusk, and arrived in the daytime. He also notes that he didn't realize it was close to Christmas (which might just be a cultural reference, it's not his holiday, so he didn't notice)

However, to the Losties on the island, the time between their leaving, and the call, is approximately 48 hours(ish). Meaning the Losties think it is day 96, and the guys were missing all that time.

So, there's a clear indication that the time on the island and the time off the island is wonky somehow. It's a measurable phenomenon, so there has to be something making point A (the island) seem off from point B (the oustide)

Also, it must only impact *physical* objects, not (noticeably) waves or signals. Otherwise the radios would have a delay on them.

Maybe that there's a bit of time/space warping going on around the island, and if you don't travel through a thin point, you get all sorts of messed up, thus the bearings given for safe travel. So time is flowing normally on the island, and normally on the freighter, but the space between the two is bad.

The larger the object, the more time it takes to get through the barrier, from the island's perspective? That could be why the payload launched from the freighter takes 30min, but the helicopter takes 2 days.

No, none of this explains why - seen from the freighter's POV - the rocket hit its target after 20 seconds.
If time was the same on and off the island, Regina should not have seen the rocket impact after 20 seconds, but after 31 minutes.But she doesn't see it hit, she just counts down the amount of time it should take to hit the beacon point. That could be based on range tests previously. What she does say is that it *should* be there, and that it's "weird" that it isn't.

Since it seems that they were aware of the time anomaly between island and ship, that's probably exactly what Daniel was testing for.

I suppose all the infomation we've gleaned form 'The Constant' explains why Juilet had to be drugged and strapped down in the sub when being taken to the Island. Perhaps the water acts as a kind of radiation shield, preventing the worst of the electromagnetism exposure, which Ethan et al would be probably used to, but to a first-timer like Juilet could pose a risk of getting 'unstuck', hence the need for her to be sedated.

I agree that sub had something to do with the others avoiding Desmond's current condition. How? I don't know, but maybe if we get more Ben and Locke scenes, instead of Kate, we will find out.

I was thinking the same thing about Juliet's sub trip last night, but didn't post it because I was wondering about Ethan and others on the sub. How did they get thru and why no side- effects for them.?

Lostpedia says that it's Dec 26th on the Island, but after all this time, it could be a continuity error. If someone on the Island says, Merry Christmas, next episode, we will know that there is some kind of error in continuity on the show maybe. I think the last time we got an official count for how long they've been gone was Par Avion, which states that on the bird note.

I was thinking the same thing about Juliet's sub trip last night, but didn't post it because I was wondering about Ethan and others on the sub. How did they get thru and why no side- effects for them.?

Perhaps they are aclimatised to the limited amount of electromagnetic radiation underwater, hence the use of the sub, but I imagine that they drugged and restrained Juliet as a precaution more than anything else, so her consciousness doesn't go all Quantum Leap on the journey there

Exactly!
Also, on another thread was said "the nosebleeds (of Minkowski and Desmond) = The Sickness that Danielle referred to way back in Season 1.... "
I am not convinced they are the same sickness.

Maybe that's why Aaron should not be "raised by another" -- by leaving the island, maybe some serious damage is done to him, and he later grows up to become some mad, evil killer; whereas, if he had stayed on the island and was raised by Claire, he wouldn't experience the nastiness that is leaving the island...

Wow only two people posted about something other then the time discussion. Since this is about what we leared i'd like to state we learned Penny started looking for Des 3 years ago when his freind Charlie spoke to here. I do no recall ever seeing Charlie speak to Penny. Maybe Charlie's bodyis dead but his concence is floating to the past?

Excellent hivemind at work here! Here's my addition:

Remember there are two separate phenomena here: one is the "leap-forward" effect of getting the bearing wrong. All those on the copter experienced this. Time is, quite clearly, the same on the island as off. Going through the barrier takes longer than you think it has. It seemed to both Jack, and the Freighter people, that it took time - when they arrived on the freighter, it was noon (or whatever Sayid said) on the island too.

The second is the "unstuck in time" phenomenon, which affects only those who've previously been exposed to high doses of radiation. Of the copter crew, only Des experienced this. Presumably Minkowski and his dead friend had been exposed to radiation previously. As has Daniel. He doesn't seem to be unstuck yet though.

So, all the Losties have to stay on the island, except Jack, Hurley, Kate, Sayid (who we know get off); Jin, Sun, and Sawyer. Interestingly, that's 7. I'm guessing two of these three make up the Oceanic 6.

And yes, I've read the spoilers, so I know which two.
Aaron may not be affected, because he's not the same as a mouse, he's the same as a baby mouse. Or perhaps Kate is his constant - remember she was there when he was born.

As it happens, my husband is a rocket scientist, and he looked at the equations and explained them all to me. At length. With graphs. And different coloured pens. And a drafting spline. Anyway, apparently it all makes sense.

And yes, Daniel is a very well-drawn character - why do you ask?

The second is the "unstuck in time" phenomenon, which affects only those who've previously been exposed to high doses of radiation. Of the copter crew, only Des experienced this. Presumably Minkowski and his dead friend had been exposed to radiation previously. As has Daniel. He doesn't seem to be unstuck yet though.

So, all the Losties have to stay on the island, except Jack, Hurley, Kate, Sayid (who we know get off); Jin, Sun, and Sawyer.

While I like that theory quite a lot, I just have to ask: how much is high levels of radiation? They were quite far from the hatch so it would seem to me that only Charlie, Desmond, Eko and Locke were irradiated properly by that event. On the other hand, Claire and Aaron were shown specifically on the beach when the hatch door landed and I don't think that was random.

Aaron may not be affected, because he's not the same as a mouse, he's the same as a baby mouse.

Hm. I suppose that works. Jack says they made a mistake and Charlie tells Hurley the people left on the Island need them. Kate says "It can't be changed" but I think Jack wants Aaron to go back too so... yeah... confusion abounds.

As it happens, my husband is a rocket scientist, and he looked at the equations and explained them all to me. At length. With graphs. And different coloured pens. And a drafting spline. Anyway, apparently it all makes sense.

Does he have any cute, single co-workers and can I have their numbers? I could really use one on Lost nights. :biggrin:

Exactly!
Also, on another thread was said "the nosebleeds (of Minkowski and Desmond) = The Sickness that Danielle referred to way back in Season 1.... "
I am not convinced they are the same sickness.

Maybe that's why Aaron should not be "raised by another" -- by leaving the island, maybe some serious damage is done to him, and he later grows up to become some mad, evil killer; whereas, if he had stayed on the island and was raised by Claire, he wouldn't experience the nastiness that is leaving the island...

so her consciousness doesn't go all Quantum Leap on the journey there

Great line, I wish I would have thought of that!

I questioned whether the sub was the actual means of transport to and from the Island, but with the troubles seen with planes, helicopters, and above water ships/boats, I think it's probable that the sub was in fact used because it avoided the problem of staying EXACTLY on the required bearing.

I think my brain is finally wrapping around this time bending theory.

So, time on the island and off the island is the same. Here is where I went wonky...(lol) thinking time had to be different on the island...and it's pretty simple.

I assumed that the freighter people only waited minutes for the helicopter to arrive back from the island. However, this episode never told us how long the freighter people waited. They could have waited the exact same amount of time as Jack was pacing the sand for a call from Sayid for all we know.

The only time bending was done in the "thunder clouds". Just like the Bermuda Triangle where some pilots have experienced time bending. What felt like a couple of minutes as they passed through the triangle was in reality hours of 'real' time.

This headache I caused upon myself was fruitless anyway because "time" does not exist .:biggrin:

HUH?



Desmond has been on the island from September 2004 to December 2004, that's three months of island time, not three years.

Penny's reference to "three years" is exactly the evidence needed to show that time is not the same.


Erm... so the three years Desmond spent pushing the button and saving the world down in the hatch with Kelvin don't count?

Desmond did NOT get on the Island with the 815ers on September 22nd 2004. He's been there for three years.

HUH?


Desmond has been on the island from September 2004 to December 2004, that's three months of island time, not three years.

Penny's reference to "three years" is exactly the evidence needed to show that time is not the same.




Remember Desmond isn't a Flight 815 survivor.:biggrin:

HUH?


Desmond has been on the island from September 2004 to December 2004, that's three months of island time, not three years.

Penny's reference to "three years" is exactly the evidence needed to show that time is not the same.


Desmond did not arrive on the Island the same time that Oceanic Flight 815 crashed there. He entered the race around the world in 2001 and was in the Swan for roughly three years before encountering the Losties in 2004.

I'm so glad I have the max. # of posts per page ... that way it says I only have one page to read, instead of what? Like 5 more? :smile:

Anyways, It seems like from last night to today, the discussion about whether any time difference is occurring has stopped, but now the question, is specifically where it occurs. The question now, is whether point A on the Island, has a different time than point B - for instance, if Jack calls Sayid and they coordinate their watches, in a day, will they still have the same time? Will it still make sense? (If the Losties are experiencing shorter days, as someone mentioned, then Jack's watch could say 6pm, which is in sync with Sayids, but it could be morning the next day, for instance).
OR
Point A and B are the same - but around the Island, via the "bumpy ride", and coordinates, there is a time "barrier", which warps time based upon the entry point and possibly the entrant.

Yes?

In the "pop up video" reruns before the new episode, TPTB have kindly been telling us what day it is on the island. If they didn't want us to know that, they wouldn't tell us. I think in last night's rerun of "Eggtown," the little pop up subtitle said it was something like Day 93 on the island. (Easy enough to check via rewatching.) So there's no need to debate how long the Losties have been on the island. We're being told that information ( and not for no reason, I would assume.)

In the "pop up video" reruns before the new episode, TPTB have kindly been telling us what day it is on the island. If they didn't want us to know that, they wouldn't tell us. I think in last night's rerun of "Eggtown," the little pop up subtitle said it was something like Day 93 on the island. (Easy enough to check via rewatching.) So there's no need to debate how long the Losties have been on the island. We're being told that information ( and not for no reason, I would assume.)

But like Dan said, "Your perception of how long your friends have been gone ...well, they really haven't been gone that long".

The number of days they've been on the island is relatively meaningless, until we know more about how time works on and off the Island.

In the "pop up video" reruns before the new episode, TPTB have kindly been telling us what day it is on the island. If they didn't want us to know that, they wouldn't tell us. I think in last night's rerun of "Eggtown," the little pop up subtitle said it was something like Day 93 on the island. (Easy enough to check via rewatching.) So there's no need to debate how long the Losties have been on the island. We're being told that information ( and not for no reason, I would assume.)

Plus, there is Juliet's timeline of three years which reconciles with her nephew's birth off island. Then there is Kelvin telling Des he's been shaving everyday for 3 years and to live a little. It's later that day when Desmond causes the plane to crash and the dates on the print-out synch up with off island time. And Ben mentions to Jack the number of days since the Losties crashed and what has happened off island.

I think the time difference is when they enter/exit the island.

So Maybe that path is like a wormhole?


This is totally how I see it. Not a distance wormhole like on Star Trek, but a time wormhole. Although, it may be a time and distance wormhole both, who knows.

I think my brain is finally wrapping around this time bending theory.

So, time on the island and off the island is the same. Here is where I went wonky...(lol) thinking time had to be different on the island...and it's pretty simple.

I assumed that the freighter people only waited minutes for the helicopter to arrive back from the island. However, this episode never told us how long the freighter people waited. They could have waited the exact same amount of time as Jack was pacing the sand for a call from Sayid for all we know.

The only time bending was done in the "thunder clouds". Just like the Bermuda Triangle where some pilots have experienced time bending. What felt like a couple of minutes as they passed through the triangle was in reality hours of 'real' time.

This headache I caused upon myself was fruitless anyway because "time" does not exist .:biggrin:

I've been doing the same thing - trying to figure out the implications for this time stuff. Here's what I have come up with.

1 - Daniel said to Jack something to the effect that the actual amount of time that he thought had passed since the helicopter left was not in fact the actual amount of time that had passed (someone correct me if that is not right.) BUT it is the same day and year on the boat (real world) as the island (island world). So how does the island not feel time going by the same as the real world? I think the only answer for this is that time is the same for both, but the entry and exit of the island's sphere somehow distorts time for people going through the sphere (like the event horizon of a black hole perhaps, just not that severe). That's why the helicopter took off at disk and landed midday - they were actually in the air for over 2 days, they just didn't realize it.

2 - I think the bearing that the helicopter had to use is something like the thinnest part of the time distortion sphere, where they would experience the least amount of time change. Or maybe its the only spot where a craft could actually get through, and somehow the island manufactures storm clouds to "hide" the spot and try to get craft to go around it, thus missing the island.

I may be totally off on these thoughts, as usual more questions than answers.

This is totally how I see it. Not a distance wormhole like on Star Trek, but a time wormhole. Although, it may be a time and distance wormhole both, who knows.
Yep. That's what I was pushing last night, and it's still what I like. I think if Sayid and Jack would have compared watches they would both have been in sync... it's just that Sayid literally skipped a day, and "re-caught up." It makes sense to me...
100%
I've been doing the same thing - trying to figure out the implications for this time stuff. Here's what I have come up with.

1 - Daniel said to Jack something to the effect that the actual amount of time that he thought had passed since the helicopter left was not in fact the actual amount of time that had passed (someone correct me if that is not right.) BUT it is the same day and year on the boat (real world) as the island (island world). So how does the island not feel time going by the same as the real world? I think the only answer for this is that time is the same for both, but the entry and exit of the island's sphere somehow distorts time for people going through the sphere (like the event horizon of a black hole perhaps, just not that severe). That's why the helicopter took off at disk and landed midday - they were actually in the air for over 2 days, they just didn't realize it.

2 - I think the bearing that the helicopter had to use is something like the thinnest part of the time distortion sphere, where they would experience the least amount of time change. Or maybe its the only spot where a craft could actually get through, and somehow the island manufactures storm clouds to "hide" the spot and try to get craft to go around it, thus missing the island.

I may be totally off on these thoughts, as usual more questions than answers.
Daniel mentioned that their perception may not be correct... I believe he was implying (and knew) that Frank missed the coordinates, and was expecting a call anytime from a few hours to a few days later - depending on how far off Frank hit the "wormhole." He knew that, from Sayid's persepctive, the trip was still only 20 minutes. (And, clearly it was only 20 minutes or else they'd have run out of gas and landed in the ocean...)

Hey, if something convinces me otherwise in future episodes I will change my stance. I try to think like a scientist - given the evidence we have. What do we have now? We have a clear example of it being Christmas Eve of 2004 in both worlds. I'm sorry, but I'm sticking with this. Obviously, it can become more layered than how you put it... but I honestly do not believe in any sort of time difference.

I'm only quoting this because your claiming to think like a scientist. I too am willing to be convinced either way... but I don't see the proof of it being Christmas Eve, 2004 in both worlds. What I see is Christmas Eve, 2004 on the Freighter and where Penny is... both off the island... but what indication do we have it is Christmas Eve on the island?

We have the Losties perception that they've been on the island for 95 days... but that is there perception, as far as I can tell this isn't fact.

We have the Losties able to comunicate in Real Time with the Freighter/Penny... but again this it the viewers perception. Before thinking I just contradicted myself, there are theories which say time as we know it changes near large gravitational and electromagnetic fields...radio waves move at the speed of light and are not effected like physical objects... hence two physical objects moving at different speeds could theoretically communicate.

I'm not saying that is what is happening or that is a theory, all I'm saying is I haven't seen proof to dismiss a time difference. If anything, the proof which can not yet be explained in SUPPORT of a time difference would be the rocket and the helicopter trip.

Like I originally said, I'm not saying there definitely must be a time difference, but from my scientific view, I certainly can't toss the idea out at this point... and in fact I think more evidence points to a time difference than away, but "time" will tell...

I think the question is, why isn't it 2008 on the boat, while it's 2004 on the island. Right?

There certainly seems to be a time related anomoly at work, and there is always the chance that the frieghter and Penny KNOW about the time difference and are simply taking measure not to mess with the heads of people on the island.

I've been doing the same thing - trying to figure out the implications for this time stuff. Here's what I have come up with.

1 - Daniel said to Jack something to the effect that the actual amount of time that he thought had passed since the helicopter left was not in fact the actual amount of time that had passed (someone correct me if that is not right.) BUT it is the same day and year on the boat (real world) as the island (island world). So how does the island not feel time going by the same as the real world? I think the only answer for this is that time is the same for both, but the entry and exit of the island's sphere somehow distorts time for people going through the sphere (like the event horizon of a black hole perhaps, just not that severe). That's why the helicopter took off at disk and landed midday - they were actually in the air for over 2 days, they just didn't realize it.

2 - I think the bearing that the helicopter had to use is something like the thinnest part of the time distortion sphere, where they would experience the least amount of time change. Or maybe its the only spot where a craft could actually get through, and somehow the island manufactures storm clouds to "hide" the spot and try to get craft to go around it, thus missing the island.

I may be totally off on these thoughts, as usual more questions than answers.

You are on the right track... but so many people are making assumptions which are not facts.

1. You asked how the Losties might not feel a time difference. I mentioned in another post, I read Stephen Hawkings' book "A Brief History of Time" 13 years ago, and there was a chapter which explained this exact concept. I'm not going to rehash it, and I'm not claiming that is what is happening in the show... I'm just saying there is theoretical science that says these things could happen.

People keep claiming it is the same day on the island as in the real world, but there is NO PROOF of this, only peoples perceptions of time... You are making assumptions if you think because the Losties count 95 days on the island it means that EXACT amount of time has passed off the island too. When the plane crashed on September 22, 2004... time kept going at the rate you are used to off the island. The Losties count the sun come up and down 95 times and assume it is Christmas Eve, and when Desmond and Sayid see the calendar on the FREIGHTER, this seems to convince people the same amount of time has passed on the island. But that is comparing apples to oranges... LIGHTBULB MOMENT, WE HAVE NO CONSTANT!! We the viewer have no constant of time on the island.

Clochard said it pretty nicely a few posts ago:

The number of days they've been on the island is relatively meaningless, until we know more about how time works on and off the Island.

Leaving the time difference discussions aside, I'd like to say something about constants.

We all know that character flashbacks somehow overlap, people have seen each other or someone's father or daughter or whatever. We know that some of the survivors will need constants if they're to survive. I feel that these overlaps will probably come in handy for them in some way.

And remember last episode's "8 survive, 2 die" part? Maybe these 2 die because they can't find their constants?

Just thinking very narrow-minded here..

Loved the episode, btw :)

I'm only quoting this because your claiming to think like a scientist. I too am willing to be convinced either way... but I don't see the proof of it being Christmas Eve, 2004 in both worlds. What I see is Christmas Eve, 2004 on the Freighter and where Penny is... both off the island... but what indication do we have it is Christmas Eve on the island?

We have the Losties perception that they've been on the island for 95 days... but that is there perception, as far as I can tell this isn't fact.

We have the Losties able to comunicate in Real Time with the Freighter/Penny... but again this it the viewers perception. Before thinking I just contradicted myself, there are theories which say time as we know it changes near large gravitational and electromagnetic fields...radio waves move at the speed of light and are not effected like physical objects... hence two physical objects moving at different speeds could theoretically communicate.

I'm not saying that is what is happening or that is a theory, all I'm saying is I haven't seen proof to dismiss a time difference. If anything, the proof which can not yet be explained in SUPPORT of a time difference would be the rocket and the helicopter trip.

Like I originally said, I'm not saying there definitely must be a time difference, but from my scientific view, I certainly can't toss the idea out at this point... and in fact I think more evidence points to a time difference than away, but "time" will tell...

I don't have enough reason to believe "days" are "different" on the island. Ok. Dan said something about light. Whatever, that could mean a million things right now. (I'll bet when Regina said Minkowski was "unable to come to the phone" nobody correctly assumed it was because he was jumping around in time.) So, until I'm given a reason to believe that "Island Time" is different, I'm sticking with the "90-some days/Christmas Eve everywhere" dogma. Plus, I feel like there are many more questions to answer regarding different times, rather than in-sync times.

I think both cases have been beaten to the ground at this point, and all we can do now is wait for more clues... so one of us can scream at the other - "I told you so!"

People keep claiming it is the same day on the island as in the real world, but there is NO PROOF of this, only peoples perceptions of time... You are making assumptions if you think because the Losties count 95 days on the island it means that EXACT amount of time has passed off the island too. When the plane crashed on September 22, 2004... time kept going at the rate you are used to off the island. The Losties count the sun come up and down 95 times and assume it is Christmas Eve, and when Desmond and Sayid see the calendar on the FREIGHTER, this seems to convince people the same amount of time has passed on the island. But that is comparing apples to oranges... LIGHTBULB MOMENT, WE HAVE NO CONSTANT!! We the viewer have no constant of time on the island.

If the losties have counted 95 days since they landed, making it christmas eve, and on the freighter it is also christmas eve, that seems to be to be proof that time is consistent on and off the island. I don't think we're comparing apples to oranges, a date is a date. Please let me know if I didn't get the drift of what you are saying.

LIGHTBULB MOMENT, WE HAVE NO CONSTANT!! We the viewer have no constant of time on the island. :

Which seems to echo Dan's point about "all this is just a variable". Honestly, I think Ben will end up being the key in the whole time debacle. He's been on and off the Island (though I suppose it could be argued that the picture and passports don't amount to him actually having left ... ). Everything else we've seen thus far has either been off the Island, or on it, nothing has done both - except the rocket and the helicopter, and we've yet to come to a conclusive decision on what they mean, exactly.
100%
If the losties have counted 95 days since they landed, making it christmas eve, and on the freighter it is also christmas eve, that seems to be to be proof that time is consistent on and off the island. I don't think we're comparing apples to oranges, a date is a date. Please let me know if I didn't get the drift of what you are saying.

I think the argument is that the Losties only think that it's Christmas Eve, based on their calculations of sunrises/sunsets. If there is a time discrepancy on the Island, then their account of how many days its been will be off.

If the losties have counted 95 days since they landed, making it christmas eve, and on the freighter it is also christmas eve, that seems to be to be proof that time is consistent on and off the island. I don't think we're comparing apples to oranges, a date is a date. Please let me know if I didn't get the drift of what you are saying.

I agree -- it's not that complicated. If we accept the validity of the calendar hanging on the wall on the freighter, and that it isn't planted there to fool Des and Sayid for some reason, then it IS 12/24/2004 on the freighter, in the outside world. The losties have counted 95 days, making it 12/24/2004 on the island.

Then there's Penny's Christmas tree. Seems there was a lot of effort in this episode to establish evidence that the date on and off the island is Christmas Eve 2004. Yet I've seen no evidence presented that it is not that date -- only speculation.

Another reference to Desmond being on the island for 3 years....

I was looking through some youtube vids of Desmonds flashbacks. One in particular is where the white haired older lady tells Desmond who is shopping for an engagement ring for Penny tells Des that he is not going to by the ring, he is going to sail off around the world to prove to Penny's dad he is not worthless and he is going to crash on the island. Then he is going to push that button for 3 years before he is forced to turn the fail safe key. Because if he doesn't do all of this then..." All of "us" will die".

In this flashback he also recognizes Charlie singing on the street corner, and several other flashes of his life on the island. Sort of like what was going on in the constant episode.

I am wondering if the white haired lady who said "us" is not meaning mankind or similar but meaning "us" as in a group of time-travelers. Is Desmond the reason (Richard, White Haired lady and ??)can time-travel without "side-effects" is Desmond THE constant, who must do this process over and over and over to allow for these people to time travel?

Part of the transcript is up...thankfully the part I wanted was included:

DANIEL: Your perception of how long your friends have been gone, it's not necessarily how long they've actually been gone.

Time is the same on and off island. But the act of traveling between SEEMS a lot longer than it actually took.

It reminds me of hypnosis. I have sat in on several hypnosis sessions. When the subject is awakened and asked how long they thought they were under, they think a few minutes passed. In actuality several hours had passed. But their perception of time was altered, probably because of being in a deeper state of consciousness. Time passage felt different.


Maybe the EM field has some effect on consciousness that would change a persons perception of the passage of time.

I keep reading "95 days on the island" in this thread, yet Jack declares in the Economist that it has been 100 days since he's seen a baseball game. I don't know who on the island declared that day to be day 95 -- don't remember anyone saying as much. But I do remember Jack's baseball comment.

So minimally, Jack's perception of length of time on the island is 5 days longer, and Christmas would have already passed.

You're assuming he watched a game the day he left on the flight? He didn't say it had been 100 days on the island, 100 days since he saw a game.

You're assuming he watched a game the day he left on the flight? He didn't say it had been 100 days on the island, 100 days since he saw a game.
Yeah... and "100 days" is pretty-standard-in-passing-small-talk kind of wording. What, would it have felt more natural if Jack said. "I haven't seen a baseball game in 96 days!" Nope... kinda weird.

This is usually the point where we start reading too much into everything... and right now, everyone's slow-time theories are saying things like there is a mere days or hours difference. Look, if there is a time difference (and I still don't think there is), it better turn out to be years and years and years. Either that, or no difference... because this "couple of days thing" sounds like silly story-telling to me.

Rewatch the episode.

In it Penny says how she's been searching for Des an extra 3 years!!!!. Therefore it's 2007 when they're on the boat! And it's likely to be 2010 when the remaining losties get off the island! Basically--any scene on the island is in lost time, which is slower than our time.

Rewatch the episode.

In it Penny says how she's been searching for Des an extra 3 years!!!!. Therefore it's 2007 when they're on the boat! And it's likely to be 2010 when the remaining losties get off the island! Basically--any scene on the island is in lost time, which is slower than our time.
No. Desmond has been on the island for three years. I'm sorry if I'm about to sound like a jerk, but this has been answered dozens and dozens of times. Please read these threads more thoroughly so we don't have to go over the same wrong answers.

Uhm.. no lets' talk about the ambiguity of the three years. If you watch lost without commercials, Penny makes the statement, "I've been searching for you for the past 3 years." It's @ 39:53 into the vid."

ok.. let's debate.

p0) Desomond can travel back to '96
p1) Desmond '96 time is relevant.
p2) From p1, Penny knows that she has to weight 8 years for desmond to call.
p4) If desmond had gone missing in '01, why would she be "searching for him", if she had faith he would call in '04?
sc1) Penny did wait for desmond to call in '04, but he didn't. She then spent the next 03 years, from 04-07 searching for him.
c1) Therefore it is plausible that the calender in the ship was to throw off ppl, and the 'real' year is 2007! And this is why Penny states, "I've been searching you for the last 3 years".

Well, most of what you said to me doesn't make a lick of sense. But, I'll indulge part of it anyway.

She has been looking for him for 3 years. 2002, 2003, 2004. I think she just rounded up, being that 2005 is only a week away.

I questioned whether the sub was the actual means of transport to and from the Island, but with the troubles seen with planes, helicopters, and above water ships/boats, I think it's probable that the sub was in fact used because it avoided the problem of staying EXACTLY on the required bearing.

I guess if they are having trouble with planes, boats, helicopters, etc. getting to the island, then I'm wondering why they are building a runway (as per last season) :confused:

Uhm.. no lets' talk about the ambiguity of the three years. If you watch lost without commercials, Penny makes the statement, "I've been searching for you for the past 3 years." It's @ 39:53 into the vid."

ok.. let's debate.

p0) Desomond can travel back to '96
p1) Desmond '96 time is relevant.
p2) From p1, Penny knows that she has to weight 8 years for desmond to call.
p4) If desmond had gone missing in '01, why would she be "searching for him", if she had faith he would call in '04?
sc1) Penny did wait for desmond to call in '04, but he didn't. She then spent the next 03 years, from 04-07 searching for him.
c1) Therefore it is plausible that the calender in the ship was to throw off ppl, and the 'real' year is 2007! And this is why Penny states, "I've been searching you for the last 3 years".
She didn't wait eight years. Desmond's time traveling didn't affect the future, and we know Penny and Desmond met in the stadium before the race (and possibly, other times between 1996 and 2001 that have yet to be documented). Penny has been looking for Desmond since his failed return from that race... apx 3 years ago. She mentioned that she spoke to Charlie (she did, a few days earlier) and that convinved her that he was still alive. I'm not reading any more into it. If you're right in the end, then great catch... but this show's going to be over soon (and more importantly, the time issue should be resolved this season) and I think we're starting to get some substance rather than ambiguities. I, unfortunately, think you're reading too much into things. Do you really believe the people on the freighter put a random calendar from 2004 to "trick" Desmond and Sayid? Honestly, that's very silly and unbelievable storytelling.

She didn't wait eight years. Desmond's time traveling didn't affect the future, and we know Penny and Desmond met in the stadium before the race (and possibly, other times between 1996 and 2001 that have yet to be documented). Penny has been looking for Desmond since his failed return from that race... apx 3 years ago. She mentioned that she spoke to Charlie (she did, a few days earlier) and that convinved her that he was still alive. I'm not reading any more into it. If you're right in the end, then great catch... but this show's going to be over soon (and more importantly, the time issue should be resolved this season) and I think we're starting to get some substance rather than ambiguities. I, unfortunately, think you're reading too much into things. Do you really believe the people on the freighter put a random calendar from 2004 to "trick" Desmond and Sayid? Honestly, that's very silly and unbelievable storytelling.

Uhmm... To clarify, I was pointing out the ambiguity of the "searching for 3 years statement". I still feel that my argument is persuasive to the effect that it points out an alternate and equally plausible outcome based on the ambiguity.

Help me remember, but how did Penny know Desmond had entered himself in the boat race? Wasn't it a spur of the moment thing? Moroever, I believe only Desmond and Libby knew of his entrance in the race. Correct me if I'm wrong. Therefore, if this is true, Penny would only begin to search for Desmond once she knew he was in danger ie. if he didn't phone in 04. If she didn't know he had entered the boat race, how would she know he hadn't finish the race? Thus she would have no reason to suspect Desmond was in danger. Thus the point where she begins to search for him must be 04.
100%
Uhmm... To clarify, I was pointing out the ambiguity of the "searching for 3 years statement". I still feel that my argument is persuasive to the effect that it points out an alternate and equally plausible outcome based on the ambiguity.

Help me remember, but how did Penny know Desmond had entered himself in the boat race? Wasn't it a spur of the moment thing? Moroever, I believe only Desmond and Libby knew of his entrance in the race. Correct me if I'm wrong. Therefore, if this is true, Penny would only begin to search for Desmond once she knew he was in danger ie. if he didn't phone in 04. If she didn't know he had entered the boat race, how would she know he hadn't finish the race? Thus she would have no reason to suspect Desmond was in danger. Thus the point where she begins to search for him must be 04.

ok.. I just fact checked my claims. And according to Lostpedia:

"To evade her questions, Desmond confronted Penny with his knowledge that she is getting married, adding that he will be back in a year, after winning her father's race."

So Penny did know he had entered the race. So once again, we are left with the ambiguity of whether it's '04 or '07.

I guess if they are having trouble with planes, boats, helicopters, etc. getting to the island, then I'm wondering why they are building a runway (as per last season) :confused:
Was it really established that they were building a runway?

I like the idea that the time variation occurs during transit through the barrier or field that surrounds the island and varies with the angle of penetration. I also like the concept that some people get their consciousness disconnected from time during the transit.

I think time on the island matches up with time off island. Where I run into problems is that the time fluxuation during transit appears to be different from one machine to another even when they are connected to each other. The clock showing addtional time but the rocket not running out of fuel during an extended run is one example. The helicopter continuing to function during an extended run without running out of fuel is another example.

I believe that Desmond told Penny at the stadium that he was going in the race. It was sponsored by Charles Widmore, who also knew he was entering the race.

I don't think she actually expected him to follow through on his promise to call her in eight years. If so she would have answered on the first ring and known that it was Desmond calling. She didn't have any faith that he would call. She thought he was crazy and only gave him the number when she realized that he would leave once she gave it to him.

After Desmond left for the race, and was never heard from again, Penny then started searching for him. This would have been in 2001. So her searching for him for three years would be 2004 not 2007.

I don't think she actually expected him to follow through on his promise to call her in eight years. If so she would have answered on the first ring and known that it was Desmond calling. She didn't have any faith that he would call. She thought he was crazy and only gave him the number when she realized that he would leave once she gave it to him.

After Desmond left for the race, and was never heard from again, Penny then started searching for him. This would have been in 2001. So her searching for him for three years would be 2004 not 2007.

Can I hug you? I totally would, Hurley-style.

Lost fandom, I love you, but sometimes... it's just a duck, man!


This is usually the point where we start reading too much into everything... and right now, everyone's slow-time theories are saying things like there is a mere days or hours difference. Look, if there is a time difference (and I still don't think there is), it better turn out to be years and years and years. Either that, or no difference... because this "couple of days thing" sounds like silly story-telling to me.

:hesaid:

If someone you loved went on a race around the world and didn't return safely back why would you just sit there for 3 more years, and not think Hey...maybe he is hurt or lost?

Why would you continue to wait for the call he promised you? It's obvious if he went missing that he probably won't call...and probably needed help.

Penny started the search when Desmond was reported missing from the race. (2001).

So Penny did know he had entered the race. So once again, we are left with the ambiguity of whether it's '04 or '07.
And, IIRC, Penny wasn't actually getting married. In my opinion, Penny started searching when Desmond didn't return that year. That was three years ago. Maybe you're right (and like I mentioned earlier, great catch if you are), but I highly, highly doubt it.

Damon had implied that the amount of time the Losties think they have been on the island is not necessarily how long they have been there. Right after saying that, Carlton cut him off to not say any more on that subject. :cool:

Damon had implied that the amount of time the Losties think they have been on the island is not necessarily how long they have been there. Right after saying that, Carlton cut him off to not say any more on that subject. :cool:
I know. But they say a lot of things, and I've learned to base my predictions on what we've seen and not non-canonized speculation/rumors. Maybe I'm wrong...

Is it safe to say that Widmore's sponsored race around the world was his attempt to find the black rock? We know the diary ends up in his hands, so he obviously takes an interest in the black rock.

Is it safe to say that Widmore's sponsored race around the world was his attempt to find the black rock? We know the diary ends up in his hands, so he obviously takes an interest in the black rock.
Ah. Yes. See, there is so much that we miss because of this obsession with the new time plot. I say everyone refrains from talking about time until the next episodes airs! Deal?

Interesting. The only thing I don't think fits, is that you're saying that by not hitting the right co-ordinates, you're varying the time discrepancy between when you left, and when you arrive, correct? Then ... why is there a problem getting off the Island? I mean, even if you went the wrong way, you'd still end up back in the real world, perhaps just n# of years later - same with finding the Island, it wouldn't be hard to locate, the problem would be finding it in the time you intended. So I think there must be something more than just varying degrees of time.

Well, as far as we know, thats not true now. Maybe the hatch prevented anyone trying to leave from doing so, unless they hit the coordinate that correlated with current time.

I've read through this thread and haven't found mention of when Desmond returned back to the island (frustrated and drunk). I don't remember exactly -- didn't he say something about having sailed around and around for a very long time? Did he keep coming back to the island? If anyone remembers what he said about trying to sail away, it might contribute to this debate (which I'm loving!).

Desmond was gone for 3 years. Penny said she has been searching for him for 3 years. The years would then match up. The only way they would not match up would be if Penny was looking for Desmond for 3 years and he was only on island for 1 year.

OR she didn't start searching for him until he didn't call in 2004, and has waited for the call each Christmas Eve for 3 years since.

I believe in free speech. :cool:

We know Penny has been looking for Desmond since he disappeared in the race. That is the 3 years. She started searching in 2001/2002 up until the phone call from Desmond on Christmas Eve 2004. Proof? In Live Together, Die Alone, the last scene is her receiving a phone call that her scientists have found the Island. Also, in that episode, she tells Desmond that "with enough money and determination you can find anyone." This puts that final scene in context that she had been searching for him (and the Island). Her conversation with Charlie just convinced her that Desmond was actually still alive.

I also believe time is moving at the same rate on and off the Island and that it is the same date/time. I believe traveling through the barrier around the Island causes you to jump through time at some random or not-so-random interval (if not the correct bearing). So the helicopter hit the barrier and jumped a day into the future. To them it was 20 minutes but to Jack it had been a day or so. I haven't quite sure how the rocket experiment plays into this. I need to think about this some more :)

Desmond said that regardless of what he did to get away from the island, he could not.

It's very possible that the two phenomenons aren't related. There could be this so-called time barrier around the island, and there could be an entirely different explanation for Desmond's inability to sail away from the island or anyone else's inability to find the island. (Of course, if Desmond had tried to leave after the hatch exploded, who knows where he would have ended up... maybe the hatch was the key?)

In LTDA, he said: "We're stuck in a bloody snowglobe!" I'm pretty sure there was a "brutha" involved at some point too. Just google the transcript and you should find the whole conversation. He was also convinced the outside world was gone for some reason.

My one contribution to this... Timetravel is beginning to bore the beejeezz out of me.

Yes, I think Widmore wanted The Black Rock journal for directions. Ben was already in charge of thee Others in 1996, right? I was wondering if Widmore was displeased with how he's using his resources.