figment of Juleittes imagination in the jungle or is it smokey?

Well she definitely appeared and disappeared with the whisperings. I didn't see smoke but it was dark and rainy. . .

i say it's smokey
the whispers beforehand
the fact that she couldn't possibly be in contact with ben at present time

They really didn't give us a explanation. We don't even know if she is dead or not, now. I guess Ben may still have a way to keep in contact with the remaining others.

In the jungle. She must have been one of the others that were going wherever...

Not smokey. and not dead.

At first I thought it was going to be revealed at the end that she was dead. But since they didn't include her in the end I will say she was real.

Its gotta be smokey. same thing happen with eko remember.

The disappearance implies that it may be Smokey, that idea leads us to another question: how is Ben controlling Smokey?

(Since the whole point of the FB seemed to be Ben's possessiveness and control over Juliet allowing him to continue manipulating her from afar...)

Jack saw her too this time. I think this was the first time someone else saw smokey at the same time as another person (when on the island). Weird how she just disappeared so quickly. Definitely think it was smokey.

Does Harper have to be dead in order for her to be a manifestation of smokey? Yes, Yemi and Christian were dead, but what about Kate's horse? I'd say we don't know for sure. She could be one of the red-shirt Others with Richard at the temple.

I say it's smokey. She came and went with the whispers -- she literally disappeared.

To me the more interesting question is whether or not -- and how -- Ben summoned Smokey to Juliet.

I think Harper is Smokey.

My vote is for Smokey. There is no way Ben could communicate with her.

My vote is also for smokey. the whispers, the disappearing act. Smokey all the way....

The thing to ask is.. if it was smokey.. and Juliet failed at her mission.. will this mean Juliet must die?

D/

It is so hard for me to believe that Ben can control Smokey. I thought possibly she was some kind of projection, like when Walt appeared to Shannon. Or are we saying that Walt was also Smokey?....

I too thought Harper would die in the FB. So I was pretty confused.

Laura, don't forget about season 2 when Ben was in the hatch and the whispers were discuss his situation -- we all wondered then if he could communicate with them, right? And now that it seems more likely that the whispers and smokey are intertwined...

I don't know. The other way to go is that the island/smokey has a mind of it's own, and exploiting Juliet's fear of Ben ... which is got from scanning her in One of Us? Confusing.

Everything on the island IS Smokey. :rolleyes:

im going with smokey. that monotone voice was just too odd for me

Aren't appearances by smokey usually accompanied by a rattling sound?

Even when the "Spiders" came for Nikki and Paulo...

BUT, I do think it's Smokey...

I think it was smokey too.... wispers before and after, dissapearing in a flash,
but just b/c smokey said that ben told her (Harper) to tell juliet to kill them, doesnt mean ben really had anything to do with it. Maybe it was smokey on its own trying to protect the island somehow?

It reminds me of an old scifi movie called "forbidden planet" where this guy sent out the
monster from his unconscious mind, to wreck havoc on people he felt were a threat to
him and his. But then the good stuff happens, too~ so I am wondering if Jacob summons
the good and Ben summons the bad.

When John was in the ditch and saw Walt I think most people thought that Walt was Smokey, right? If it was and Ben can control Smokey why would he do that after shooting John and leaving him for dead?

From last weeks episode we know there is transference of the mind across time, but this week the writers seemed to imply that at least Ben could read and transmit thoughts. He knew where Daniel and Charlotte were going possibly by reading their minds and he sent Harper (or something that looks like her) to task Juliet.
Maybe Ben can jump across time and occupy a body other than his own?

Mind reading would be a shark-jumper for me.

There might be secret access tunnels to where Ben was being held, or Harper might have been lying... I kinda prefer the 1st, Harper said Ben was right where he wanted to be.

Ben's still trying to recruit and keep Locke so he wants to stay close to him. With secret tunnels, passageways, etc., Ben can keep in touch with his Loyalist Others while he's playing Locke and keeping tabs on the Losties..

I don't know. The other way to go is that the island/smokey has a mind of it's own, and exploiting Juliet's fear of Ben ... which is got from scanning her in One of Us? Confusing.


I think its either this, or just that whoever DOES control Smokey was exploiting Juliet's fear of Ben.

I think Charlotte and Daniel might just be pawns at this point. They think they are there to stop the evil Ben Linus. But what Abbadon said to Noami, I got the impression that they planned on "eliminating" the survivors of 815 anyway, so maybe Widmore is getting the four Freighties to work against their own interests.

Is this the first time two people have witnessed the same "apparition" at the same time?

I can't remember...

It wasn't an apparition, it was a person.

Is this the first time two people have witnessed the same "apparition" at the same time?

I can't remember...

I think it is...but didn't Sawyer see Kate's horse?? I don't quite remember right now :confused:

It wasn't an apparition, it was a person.

I don't mean "apparition" per se...I just mean, if I were to assume that what Jack and Juliet saw wasn't Harper but the smoke monster, would this be the first time two people saw it in a human form at the same time?

I think it was "her" and not the smoke monster..
however, I am only assuming.

I don't know, I guess I just thought it was a real person and the smoke monster had nothing to do with it. If it was the smoke monster then I certainly can't think of another time when two people saw smokie like that, no one else ever saw Hurley's friend, or Eko's brother, if they were indeed smokie too.

As soon as it started pouring I was waiting for the whispers. She wasn't there in form [she moved too fast]... but we don't know if she is dead. Unless smokey can take on living forms too.

D/

I think it is...but didn't Sawyer see Kate's horse?? I don't quite remember right now :confused:
Kates horse was a horse not a vision or apparation, it was a horse.

I think Harper was really Harper, clearly when the whispers happen someone appears, I don't think it's smokey, it's something else, as for what it is I have no idea.

I think Harper is dead.

Ben somehow has communication with the bodiless souls of the island and uses them as he can.
Whether the dead souls and Smokey are the same thing, well ... who knows. I don't think so.

The Horse from Kate's past was seen by both Sawyer and Kate as well as both Shannon and Sayid seeing Walt. This was an apparition made by the island/Ben to make Juliet move her ***.

Jack heard it and we need translation of the whispers!

I'm going to go with Smokey. I now believe Ben has some control over him/it. You hear the whispers - the voice of the island - and then the images appear: Jack's dad, Kate's horse, Hurley's imaginary friend, Jacob's Cabin???, and now Harper. Ben has figured out how to communicate with The Island, and therefore some control over Smokey. That is why Smokey tried to grab Locke back in season 1, Ben knew he was important to the island and wanted Locke for himself.

If these things are actually Smokey, I would say he is definitely able to appear with physical substance, not just an apparition. Kate stood petting the horse for several minutes before it left, and Sawyer was watching.

If these things are actually Smokey, I would say he is definitely able to appear with physical substance, not just an apparition. Kate stood petting the horse for several minutes before it left, and Sawyer was watching.

Right...I agree...I just couldn't think of a better word than "apparition." Apologies.

Harper (and really all of the other manifestions on the Island) remind me of "Samuel" that King Saul asked the Witch of Endor to conjur up in the Bible. They look, sound, and even "feel" familiar, but are no more than puppets. We already know that Cerberus scans people. It stands to reason that scanning process results in a complete "download" of everything about that person. Those details are used to create a manifestation to suit the Island's purposes. In this case, the Island used Harper (on behalf of Ben) to push Juliet's buttons..

I think it was Jacob. He powers Ben to control smokey. Goodwin said he worked with chemicals & he could kill all of them with the wrong button or something like that - Maybe Goodwin used chemicals to form Smokey. They are also dangerous. I know - way out there. It's probably the chemical gas to kill everyone.

hi, first post!

I dont think Harper is dead.

If she was dead she would have died in the last 90 or so days (island time).. also the scene (conspicuously including Harper) with the plane disintegrating seemed to be a sort-of 'reveal'/confirmation that it was really her in the jungle. The whispers, of course, cast all that into doubt (damn you, Lost!!!).

anyway, Its doubtful they will get around to an island flashback wherein Harper dies. who knows though

She could have been Smokie all the same, even if she's not dead. Shannon's visions of Walt could have been Smokie as well..

hi, first post!

I dont think Harper is dead.

If she was dead she would have died in the last 90 or so days (island time).. also the scene (conspicuously including Harper) with the plane disintegrating seemed to be a sort-of 'reveal'/confirmation that it was really her in the jungle. The whispers, of course, cast all that into doubt (damn you, Lost!!!).

anyway, Its doubtful they will get around to an island flashback wherein Harper dies. who knows though

She could have been Smokie all the same, even if she's not dead. Shannon's visions of Walt could have been Smokie as well..

Welcome to the Fuselage!!!

Good first post. It didn't really occur to me that, if she was dead, she would've had to die within the first 90 or so days after Flight 815 crashed. Duh. She was there when it crashed. I'm so lame. LOL

Based on the whispers, though, and the fact that she disappeared, I have to assume it wasn't her we saw tonight, but Smokie.

Is this the first time two people have witnessed the same "apparition" at the same time?

I can't remember...Didn't Sayid and Shannon both see Walt just before Maggie was shot by Ana Lucia??

I don't mean "apparition" per se...I just mean, if I were to assume that what Jack and Juliet saw wasn't Harper but the smoke monster, would this be the first time two people saw it in a human form at the same time?

Charlie and Mr. (Oh I miss him so!!) Eko both saw it as the smoke monster but I can't recall seeing it in human fom either.

I think it was "her" and not the smoke monster..
however, I am only assuming.
The nwhy did she just disappear?

Didn't Sayid and Maggie both see Walt just before Maggie was shot by Ana Lucia??


Oh that's right!! She even asks Sayid, "Did you SEE him!?" and he shakes his head yes nervously

I think both ideas are right. I got a feeling Ben can control minds somehow. Maybe by using Smokey to take over them someway. Juliette seemed to do Ben's will without question until Daniel and Charlotte convinced her they were not going to gas the island.

I believe Smokey appeared as Harper tonight. Remember when Smokey scanned Juliet and Kate in the jungle via white flashes. Harper would be a good person to imitate, also I believe Smokey was telling her to stop them, not Ben. How would he give that order from the basement?

I am definitely thinking Harper is alive (the aforemention reason that she was alive at the crash AND alive when Goodwin died- Ben referenced her to Juliet) and when I watched the scene I assumed she was alive and had come from the temple where richard and the others are hiding. If ben is somehow communicating with them, then Harper would be the perfect manipulative choice to send to Juliet (remembering Goodwin would make her fear for Jack's life).

But, there are a few reasons I now think that Harper was an Island caused vision. Obviously the whispers and disappearing are significant, but if she is real how is Ben communicating? It is easier to believe he mentally interacts with the Island than that he was somehow slipping notes to the others. Likewise, how did Ben know Faraday and Charlotte were heading to the Tempest? Only if the Island is watching and communicating with him. This would put Ben in a whole new realm of power than we have thus far been shown- basically tonights episode threw me for a loop!

Also, if that was the real Harper, why wouldn't her and the others go and stop Faraday and Charlotte. Why go all the way to make Juliet do it?

a) maybe people don't have to be dead for Smokey to clone them

b) 90 days was enough time for several of our beloved Losties to get themselves killed, so it would be plenty of time for Harper to die too and we just didn't see or haven't seen it happen

i wouldn't be surprised if he knew ways to send messages from his cell-it is ben's house he is trapped in, after all.

the other option is that ben can communicate with jacob, who manifested a vision of harper

"Mind reading would be a shark-jumper for me"


Mind reading would do it huh? LOL We have time travel, dust busting ghostbusters, smoky, Jacob....but mind reading would tip the scales?

As soon as it started pouring I was waiting for the whispers. She wasn't there in form [she moved too fast]... but we don't know if she is dead. Unless smokey can take on living forms too.

D/

I've been trying to figure out the rain. Are there always whispers when it rains?

Perhaps smokey visits Ben at his whim. Ben just thinks about it and this security system responds to him. With spiritual\bodily Time travel I don't see long distance mental control of a computer system to be a stretch at all.

Even crazier, perhaps Smokey constantly physically inhabits Ben to some degree. If smokey is made of many particles, of (smoke/nanomachines/black magnetic mineral), then maybe these particles don't need to be in physical contact in order to communicate. Smokey might be aware of everything that Ben sees and everything that he intends as soon as he sees\thinks it.

Who knows maybe this occupation of a physical body(Ben) by Smokey could be consistent with everyone on the Island. Smokey knows what everyone wants/thinks/feels at the very moment they experience it.

I've thought this a possibility since the Pilot, where there are small black clouds above many of the passengers heads, that vanish quickly, while the plane is being torn up.
http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=83331

How do we know it was actually Harper? It could have been Smokey.

Yeah, I definitely think Harper was another manifestation of Smokey being controlled by Jacob and/or Ben. Smokey always appears as someone you have a strong emotional connection with, and since Juliet was cheating with Harpers wife there's a big guilt connection there.

From last weeks episode we know there is transference of the mind across time, but this week the writers seemed to imply that at least Ben could read and transmit thoughts.That's not out of the realm of possibility - as freighter hater humorously pointed out, we have ghost busters, time travel, ghosts, and a black smoke monster. :71: It might have been what Faraday's and Charlotte's card experiment was all about - could she transmit to him what the cards were on the table, and where?


There might be secret access tunnels to where Ben was being held . . .

Ben's still trying to recruit and keep Locke so he wants to stay close to him. With secret tunnels, passageways, etc., Ben can keep in touch with his Loyalist Others while he's playing Locke and keeping tabs on the Losties..That's a real possibility also, considering Sayid found a secret room in Ben's house.


I also thought the Whispers might be a possibility, as they preceded both Harper's appearance and disappearance.


It also seems that Ben is lying again. He said that if his people had wanted him back, they'd have stormed the castle already. Yet here we have one of his "people" delivering messages for him. Ben, what are you up to?

I don't think Ben can control Smokey. He is afraid of smokey. I think Smokey was protecting the island for its own reasons. Smokey might be the spirit of the island and it knows how to get peopel (Juliet in this case) to do what it wants.

I find it more interesting that Ben still has a hold on Juliette

When John was in the ditch and saw Walt I think most people thought that Walt was Smokey, right? If it was and Ben can control Smokey why would he do that after shooting John and leaving him for dead?

If Ben can control Smokey, then the answer is obvious...bc Ben is crazy and manipulative. He knows Locke would get up, kill Naomi so Ben wouldn't have to do it. Ben does not like the Freightastic Four and wants them gone, so getting rid of N was the first step. Although, I don't guess Ben knew at the time that the other four would come on the island, but he might have assumed.

LOL--do we really know ANYTHING with Ben?

Rain and whispers usually are a sign of Smokey. Either Walt has appeared to people or it was Smokey. I had always thought there were 2 Smokeys. A good and a bad one. One that helps people and one that kills them (Pilot,Eko).

I think this could be a trick and she really was there and wasn't Smokey. Cindy disappeared in a similar manner.

I think she was Smokey also. She appeared in much the same way as wet Walt, but at the same time I hate to think that Walt was also Smokey way back when.

It reminds me of an old scifi movie called "forbidden planet" where this guy sent out the
monster from his unconscious mind, to wreck havoc on people he felt were a threat to
him and his. But then the good stuff happens, too~ so I am wondering if Jacob summons
the good and Ben summons the bad.

"Forbidden Planet" was based on William Shakespeare's "The Tempest."

Jack saw her too this time. I think this was the first time someone else saw smokey at the same time as another person (when on the island). Weird how she just disappeared so quickly. Definitely think it was smokey.

Not correct - both Sawyer and Kate saw the horse.

I think it was Smokey, judging by the whispers and the way she disappeared. I don't think Ben is controlling Smokey, but I do think Jacob is.

I think that Harper was sent out to find Juliette by Miles. First of all she said that Ben is exactly where he wants to be, Miles said the exact same thing to Kate in Eggtown. Plus Miles did tell Ben that he would take care of Charlotte and having Juliette and Jack shoot her is definately one way of accomplishing that. Finally if Ben convets Juliette as much as it is suggested would he really risk having her being gased? So in other words Miles can talk or maybe even control Smokey.

Mind reading would be a shark-jumper for me.

There might be secret access tunnels to where Ben was being held, or Harper might have been lying... I kinda prefer the 1st, Harper said Ben was right where he wanted to be.

Ben's still trying to recruit and keep Locke so he wants to stay close to him. With secret tunnels, passageways, etc., Ben can keep in touch with his Loyalist Others while he's playing Locke and keeping tabs on the Losties..

I like the idea of secret tunnels, but the mysterious way Harper appeared and disappeared makes me think there is something more metaphysical going on.

Jack saw her too this time. I think this was the first time someone else saw smokey at the same time as another person (when on the island). Weird how she just disappeared so quickly. Definitely think it was smokey.

And don't forget when Kate and Juliette saw Smokey at the sonic fence... and Sahid and Shannon saw wet Walt together too.

figment of Juleittes imagination in the jungle or is it smokey?

it is obviously smokey but controlled by Ben.

I don't think Ben is controlling Smokey, but I do think Jacob is.

Something is. Everyone is forgetting a major detail in this thread. Harper appeared to Juliet in the middle of the night during a rainstorm (impossible to see) with no torch or lightsource. Imagine someone trying to disappear in pitch black darkness like she did in a jungle environment.

She'd try to appear ominous and then they'd just hear her trip on a vine or something and fall 20 feet away.


Plus, she wasn't at all threatened when Jack pointed his gun at her. I doubt everyone is careless about guns pointed at them.

And don't forget when Kate and Juliette saw Smokey at the sonic fence... and Sahid and Shannon saw wet Walt together too.

And didn't Charlie witness Locke with Smokey?

Jack saw her too this time. I think this was the first time someone else saw smokey at the same time as another person (when on the island). Weird how she just disappeared so quickly. Definitely think it was smokey.

There have been other times. Kate and Sawyer both saw Kate's horse for example.

And didn't Charlie witness Locke with Smokey?

No, Charlie witnessed Eko with Smokey

At the end of Season 2 when Jack, Kate, Sawyer, and Hurley were captured by the others they all heard the whispers just before they were hit by the darts that put them to sleep. It turned to be The Others, not Smokey, there to capture the Losties.

No, Charlie witnessed Eko with Smokey

Right. My memory is failing me. Didn't Jack and others witness Locke being pulled into a hole by Smokey?

maybe it was astral projection or some type of montauk chair gimmick.

.....

The Montauk Chair, Nichols relates, was a chair in which a psychic would sit; this chair was surrounded by magnetic pickup coils which fed into modified radio receivers which could pick up a noise peak from 3 different directional axes (x,y, and z) and glean information from this tri-dimensional signal--- i.e., an electronic "aura" or electromagnetic body-field reader. The signals that were extracted from this 3D pickup arrangement were processed digitally and correlated with thoughts, moods, etc. Later, a digital signal was generated artificially which mimicked the original signals. This signal drove the radar transmitter and radiated "thought forms" outward from the base. With this technology the experimenters were able to affect the moods and thoughts of anyone they selected as a "target".
At some point they began to have the psychics in the "Montauk Chair" visualize very specific things-- such as a "vortex connecting 1980 to 1940"-- and the digitized/recorded/replayed version of that "thought form" supposedly led to actual time travel "portals" opening up, through which one could be physically transported to another place or time. With further refinements and transmitter power increases, the story goes, they were ultimately able to "precipitate matter out of pure thought" by generating an electromagnetic "lattice" or pattern that formed the "ghost" of a material object. Continued pumping of energy into this "space-form" would eventually cause it to "solidify" into a real object (sort of the "opposite" of the E=mc^2 Einstein equation which led to the A-bomb, where a piece of matter is converted very quickly to a lot of energy. Here a lot of energy gradually became solidified as a piece of matter)......

I say she's alive. Her quick disappearance didn't remind me of smokey, it reminded me of Season 1/2 the Others. Come out of nowhere, disappear into thin air

I like the idea of secret tunnels because we know there were tunnels leading into and out of the barracks. The metaphysical stuff is interesting but I think if they introduce too many aspects of mental or physical projection it will cause viewers to get confused.

Juliet disappeared into thin air after going to fetch Water.
Harper appears and leaves in thin air in the Rain.

I say she's alive. Her quick disappearance didn't remind me of smokey, it reminded me of Season 1/2 the Others. Come out of nowhere, disappear into thin airI agree. The creepy barefooted others that never left tracks, etc... The ones the "tailies" were so frightened of.

Juliet disappeared into thin air after going to fetch Water.
Harper appears and leaves in thin air in the Rain.

Sister! ;)

Juliet had enough time to vanish when Jack's attention was on his former sweetie's curls...

Harper just gone poof.

Jack: "Oh you know her? Oh she works for Dharma. That's cool. Let's keep moving."

i highly doubt he's a mind reader... i think he knew Widmore's crew would be coming and what their objective was (thank god for unknown spies)... he sent Richard and the Loyalists to the tempest at season 3 finale and i'm sure they were given a blueprint of what to do... it seems the plan was to test Juliet's loyalty and we saw that she was still, although somewhat reluctantly, on Ben's side cuz she knows he has a plan for the war... Linus is a freakin' architect...

I thought it was interesting that Harper said "Ben is exactly where he wants to be" - the EXACT same words Miles said to Kate............

"Mind reading would be a shark-jumper for me"


Mind reading would do it huh? LOL We have time travel, dust busting ghostbusters, smoky, Jacob....but mind reading would tip the scales?

Absolutely. That's why there HAS to be a secret passageway.

:biggrin:

I have read the thread...I havent been convinced of either theory...

1. If it is Harper....she did the whole disappear thing so well just like the others did in the first few seasons....and we still dont know if the whipsers are something that the others put into place to make things seem creepier than normall...so it could be her alive. I dont think she was/is dead and Juliette would have been more freked out.

2. If it was smokey Juliette again would have been more freaked out...unless she is alive and Juliette didnt know her wearabouts...and Jack seeing her could still mean smokey as smokey does manifest himself into real objects...we didnt see smoke as it was dark perhaps? )(Again if it was smokey...nanobots buzzing (yes stills ticking with that) around would appear to be a real thing)

I really thought we would see in Juliet's flashback that Harper had died. But even though we didn't see it, I still think she's dead. But how did Ben communicate with Harper/Smokey? Does he just say it into the ether and Smokey hears it?

i highly doubt he's a mind reader... i think he knew Widmore's crew would be coming and what their objective was (thank god for unknown spies)... he sent Richard and the Loyalists to the tempest at season 3 finale and i'm sure they were given a blueprint of what to do... it seems the plan was to test Juliet's loyalty and we saw that she was still, although somewhat reluctantly, on Ben's side cuz she knows he has a plan for the war... Linus is a freakin' architect...


I just double checked and Ben sent the others to the "Temple" not the Tempest. The Barracks and "Pascal Flats" are also noted on the map. The Radio Tower seems quite close to where the Tempest is located, near the west coast in between 2 mountain ranges.
No indication of where the Temple is.

I have read the thread...I havent been convinced of either theory...

1. If it is Harper....she did the whole disappear thing so well just like the others did in the first few seasons....and we still dont know if the whipsers are something that the others put into place to make things seem creepier than normall...so it could be her alive. I dont think she was/is dead and Juliette would have been more freked out.

2. If it was smokey Juliette again would have been more freaked out...unless she is alive and Juliette didnt know her wearabouts...and Jack seeing her could still mean smokey as smokey does manifest himself into real objects...we didnt see smoke as it was dark perhaps? )(Again if it was smokey...nanobots buzzing (yes stills ticking with that) around would appear to be a real thing)

In general, whenever it starts raining, I expect to see MANIFESTATIONS in one form or another. That might mean the smoke monster, or it might not. The same goes with the whispers in the background. Those are keyed to apparently supernatural island manifestations.

I associated this manifestation with the smoke monster, taking a familiar and appropriate form to make Juliet do what it wanted her to do. If this was a manifestation of the island it doesnt necessarily mean that it was controlled by Ben. I can see the island 'defending itself' against the freighties in the best way possible: By pretending that Ben sent the perfect messenger to tell Juliette that those people are going to gas everyone, and need to be stopped.

Ben might not have anything to do with this directly at all. Indirectly I'm sure he know about the smoke monster and these odd manifestations on the island, but I'm not jumping to the conclusion that he can actually control them personally. I just think that they happen to share the same agenda most of the time.

The same happened with the whispers when Jack and the gang were kidnapped at the end of s2. The whispers preceded the others. So it seems they are related.
But did you notice how mysteriously she disappeared?

It seems like she was there but at the same time she wasn't.... I don't know. I mean she could have been a projection (kind of like Walt), but then, were all the others that kidnapped the gang projections too? I doubt it.

Another point for her being a projection was the fact that she told Juliet that Ben told her what to do... When did he do that? He has been a prisoner for a couple of days now. What I am trying to say is that perhaps she appears to Ben wherever he is and that's how they talk to each other???? I believe that is the same method he uses to communicate with his man on the boat....

Laura, don't forget about season 2 when Ben was in the hatch and the whispers were discuss his situation -- we all wondered then if he could communicate with them, right? And now that it seems more likely that the whispers and smokey are intertwined...


Good point, Jenny. You should post that in the Whispers thread. I'm surprised you haven't posted there since the show aired, actually!

I say she's alive. Her quick disappearance didn't remind me of smokey, it reminded me of Season 1/2 the Others. Come out of nowhere, disappear into thin air

That's true. But then again, she also seemed like Wet Walt. Wet Harper....

The same happened with the whispers when Jack and the gang were kidnapped at the end of s2. The whispers preceded the others. So it seems they are related.
But did you notice how mysteriously she disappeared?

It seems like she was there but at the same time she wasn't.... I don't know. I mean she could have been a projection (kind of like Walt), but then, were all the others that kidnapped the gang projections too? I doubt it.

Another point for her being a projection was the fact that she told Juliet that Ben told her what to do... When did he do that? He has been a prisoner for a couple of days now. What I am trying to say is that perhaps she appears to Ben wherever he is and that's how they talk to each other???? I believe that is the same method he uses to communicate with his man on the boat....

There's a good discussion going on in the Whispers thread. I belive it was Tramp who posted that he thinks there are projections and Smokey manifestations, two different things. I'm leaning in that direction too. I'm inclined to believe that Ben has the ability to control the projections but not the Smokey manifestations. I think the reason he feared Walt is because he couldn't harness and control Walt's abilities. Whereas, maybe the rest of the Others, he was able to completely brainwash them and have them only project when he wants them to?
I am therefore less inclined to believe that Ben can control Smokey itself, therefore he would not be controlling instances like Yemi appearing to Eko.

Right. My memory is failing me. Didn't Jack and others witness Locke being pulled into a hole by Smokey?

Jack and Kate are the ones that witness this and save Locke.

Its gotta be smokey. same thing happen with eko remember.
I don't think there's anything to imply that dead people appearing and disappearing is directly related smokey. They closest thing is that after Eko tried to follow Emi, he ran into Smokey. But of all the appearing and disappearing, that's the only time that happened. It is definitely related to the voices though.

Since she appeared and disappeared, and amidst voices, I think she is definitely dead.
100%
I dont think she was/is dead and Juliette would have been more freked out.
Juliette definitely acted like she thought she was alive. I think she doesn't know she's dead.

Another possibility is that Ben himself can directly manifest himself through the "rematerialized" bodies of dead people. And he was projecting himself to Juliette in that manner to get her to kill Daniel and Charlotte.

I always thought that Walt was capable of teleporting an image of himself to deliver a message. He's gotten better at it over time. Compare the time he appeared to Shannon to the time he appeared to John.

I am thinking that Harper has the same ability.

It's always around the whispering.

I'd love to hear other people's thoughts about Harper appearing to Juliet...

Was she a Smokie induced "apparition" or maybe an astral projection? And how did she speak to Ben? Or I guess I should say, how did Ben speak to her when he was a prisionner?

Just like in many past scenes where Smokie or a manifestation appears,it is raining and you can hear the whisperers. If it is Smokie, then sounds like Ben controls Smokie.

I know I think she was actually there. Just because if the writers were ever going to bring back the group of Other's then they will need some leader type figures to focus on. Outside of Richard, I can't think of any other characters that fit that bill. Harper would fill a role for the writers.

I was actually looking through all the threads to see if anyone mentioned this part of the episode.

I was wondering how Ben 'contacted' her to give Juliet a message? That seems to be a very interesting questions as well. I never though that it could've been Smokie manifesting himself as Harper.

She appears and Jack actually saw her as well. Much like how Sawyer saw the black horse too along with Kate, then vanished as well.

I don't think that Ben has anything to do with the Smoke monster. When Juliet and Kate were trekking back to the New Otherton, they came across the 'electric fence' and Juliet was genuinely frightened of Smokie and was running away from it. Also, when Locke was threatening to shoot Ben he said "I still have things you wanna know." In which Locke then asked what was the smoke monster. Ben said he had no idea, and I believed him.

The whispers and the others are somehow connected, clearly. She appears amongst the whispers like Alpert, and disappears amongst the whispers like that time when Cindy just vanishes The Other 48 Days. No smokey, just good old fashioned Others teleportation, or something.

I believe Harper was flesh and blood. We've heard the whispers in connection with the others before, e.g. when Cindy was snatched away. I think Harper was chosen as the messenger because, as Goodwin's widow, she's a vivid reminder to Juliet of just how truly menacing Ben can be when he doesn't get what he wants.

The whispers and the others are somehow connected, clearly. She appears amongst the whispers like Alpert, and disappears amongst the whispers like that time when Cindy just vanishes The Other 48 Days. No smokey, just good old fashioned Others teleportation, or something.

I thought she somehow appeared and disappeared via astral projection like Walt has done. But then as I was chatting with a friend,I started thinking it could be Smokie. The only thing I know for sure is she didn't come and go on her own two feet.... one minute she was there and then tada...she's gone into thin air!

But Walt appeared to Shannon and Sayid, and later to Locke in a similiar fashion.

I agree - I don't think Smokie is in this. Harper appeared and disappeared with the whisperings. I have no clue how Others do that, but it's consistent.

I'm wondering about her message though. As she came from the Temple (which is where I assume the Others have congregated) - she may have tracked the Freighties and realized that they were going to the Tempest station.

And, she could have given Juliet the message in Ben's name to frighten Juliet into doing what the Others wanted her to do. I mean, Juliet wouldn't go out of her way to help Harper. But, this episode showed us that Juliet has reason to fear Ben when he's crossed. I know Ben is supposed to be powerful, but all I've really seen is his ability to manipulate and intimidate. I don't really believe that Ben communicated with Harper.

The fact that Jack saw Harper is an interesting topic in this Ben-manifestation-smokey-mental projection theory (or whatever you want to call it). Did anyone else get the same feeling as they did when seeing Hurley interact with Charlie at the mental hospital in the flash fwd? Charlie was also seen by someone else (another patient) like Harper with Jack, Charlie also quickly vanished like Harper did, and it would explain his "I'm dead but also here" comment. If this were the case you could say that Charlie tried to 'manipulate' Hurley in to coming back to the Island much like Harper manipulated Juliet into killing (or attempting to kill) Daniel and Charlotte. Juliet said to Jack "Ben knew how to get to me"... did he know how to 'get to' or manipulate Hurley using Charlie?

Just a thought...

I agree - I don't think Smokie is in this. Harper appeared and disappeared with the whisperings. I have no clue how Others do that, but it's consistent.

I'm wondering about her message though. As she came from the Temple (which is where I assume the Others have congregated) - she may have tracked the Freighties and realized that they were going to the Tempest station.

And, she could have given Juliet the message in Ben's name to frighten Juliet into doing what the Others wanted her to do. I mean, Juliet wouldn't go out of her way to help Harper. But, this episode showed us that Juliet has reason to fear Ben when he's crossed. I know Ben is supposed to be powerful, but all I've really seen is his ability to manipulate and intimidate. I don't really believe that Ben communicated with Harper.

So you think the Others since going to the Temple are acting on their own without their leader,Ben? I'm not sure about that. The main Others except for Richard Alpert were killed by the Losties. But it could have been Richard having Harper give Juliet the message, I suppose.
If Harper is able to project herself or teleport then she could have teleported herself to Otherville and talked to Ben herself.

I just got a thought, perhaps Ben knew that the Frieghter Four (or two in this case) would head for The Tempest so he told Harper that if anything happened to him she should send Juliet to the station to take care of the gas. So she was probably already about to send Juliet to the station when they took off. I don't know if it really works or not, but it just popped into my head and I thought I'd share it.

I just got a thought, perhaps Ben knew that the Frieghter Four (or two in this case) would head for The Tempest so he told Harper that if anything happened to him she should send Juliet to the station to take care of the gas. So she was probably already about to send Juliet to the station when they took off. I don't know if it really works or not, but it just popped into my head and I thought I'd share it.
That's possible JD. The Others esp. Ben do always seem to be one step ahead of our Losties.
But we know some paranormal stuff happens on the Island,and the paranormal was one of the Dharma areas of research, I believe. So it's possible they used some kind of mental telepathy. Not to mention those tricky whisperers, they could be a part of some type of remote viewing operation.

So you think the Others since going to the Temple are acting on their own without their leader,Ben? I'm not sure about that. The main Others except for Richard Alpert were killed by the Losties. But it could have been Richard having Harper give Juliet the message, I suppose.
If Harper is able to project herself or teleport then she could have teleported herself to Otherville and talked to Ben herself.

I just think Ben is a poser, the frustrated little kid who grows up to bully people by his well-honed people skills. I am not convinced (yet) that he has paranormal talents.

It seems the Others were losing faith in Ben, back when Karl left and Locke turned up and Ben was back-tracking to cover his lies. So it's possible that he is no longer needed as their leader. I'd love to see Richard back again - maybe he's the interim leader until they find their new Jacob-talker?

It was Harper.

I too think Ben is losing his grip on his group. Alpert helped Locke redeem himself in the eyes of the Others for a reason. That reason is because Locke is the favored messiah and Ben knows it.

Ben still has his loyalists but the number is dwindling.

The same happened with the whispers when Jack and the gang were kidnapped at the end of s2. The whispers preceded the others. So it seems they are related.
But did you notice how mysteriously she disappeared?

Another point for her being a projection was the fact that she told Juliet that Ben told her what to do... When did he do that? He has been a prisoner for a couple of days now. What I am trying to say is that perhaps she appears to Ben wherever he is and that's how they talk to each other????

Yeah

Im with you. I dont think there is certain answer to this yet. Its seems like some sort of transportation

It was Harper.

Yeah, Harper, running around in the dark while it's raining without a flashlight or torch. Unless she either has nightvision or hid her flashlight behind some bushes.

Harper isn't some ninja with nightvision. It was a projection of some sort and directly related to the whispers.

Also, they made it a point to zoom in on Juliet's continued puzzlement as to how Harper just disappeared. She would have known Harper was capable of this and not impressed if it was actually Harper.

I agree - I don't think Smokie is in this. Harper appeared and disappeared with the whisperings. I have no clue how Others do that, but it's consistent.
When have Others done that? There were whispers before Richard showed up to young Ben, but he was just standing directly behind him... it didn't seem so much like he necessarily just "appeared." People who just appear along with the whispers have generally been dead.

Personally, I think that Harper is dead, and her body was being manifested to Juliette by Ben. She talked like Ben, and said the same things Ben would have said. And no one other than Ben has anything to gain from Harper giving Juliette such an impression that Ben is omnipotent.

It may well have been Ben as Yemmi and as Walt too. Both times he was, like now, imprisoned. So maybe he had nothing better to do than to enter a trance and appear to Losties in order to get them killed.

When have Others done that? There were whispers before Richard showed up to young Ben, but he was just standing directly behind him... it didn't seem so much like he necessarily just "appeared." People who just appear along with the whispers have generally been dead.

Personally, I think that Harper is dead, and her body was being manifested to Juliette by Ben. She talked like Ben, and said the same things Ben would have said. And no one other than Ben has anything to gain from Harper giving Juliette such an impression that Ben is omnipotent.

It may well have been Ben as Yemmi and as Walt too. Both times he was, like now, imprisoned. So maybe he had nothing better to do than to enter a trance and appear to Losties in order to get them killed.

Ben was being held prisionner when Walt appeared to Shannon and Sayid?
I think Harper is able to project herself. I think Walt did so to Shannon/Sayid but had not perfected his ability yet so he was talking backwards. Like Klugh asked Michael, "has your son ever appeared somewhere he shouldn't have" or words to that effect.

I like the idea of secret tunnels because we know there were tunnels leading into and out of the barracks. The metaphysical stuff is interesting but I think if they introduce too many aspects of mental or physical projection it will cause viewers to get confused.
Still, tunnels do not explain Harper's sudden appearance and disappearance. There is something more than tunnels going on here.

I think we will learn Harper is dead. In fact, I think Juliet killed her. Or let her die in childbirth.

I think we will learn Harper is dead. In fact, I think Juliet killed her. Or let her die in childbirth.
She could possibly be dead. But I don't think she died in childbirth. She didn't look pregnant in "Not In Portland" when the Others all ran out and saw 815 crash. And it was only about 3 months in b/w then and when Juliet came back with the Losties.

There is a lot of ESP on the island..
I for one, think that Jacob is a poltergeist occurrence of Ben's which started when he was an adolescent.
Astral travel (out of body travel) is a common practice among practitioners of extra sensory perception.
The whispers can be the collective trance-like chanting practices of the group.. much like witch-craft circles.
And staying on that grain, there is mental telepathy which is not that difficult to do for people who practice it.

All of these things are common practice with people who research ESP.

I noticed twice in this episode they dropped the word "hostile." One of those times was in the scene where Harper appears. If you think back to last season and the referencing of the hostiles, is it possible that Harper is a hostile like Alpert and not an Other like Juliet?

I dont think it was Ben who sent Harper, I feel its the others themselves trying to purge the island again, losties, ben. freighties, everyone. Remember that the freighties saved everyone. If they hadnt what would of happened? I think Ben was fairly truthful that episode... and that the Others have left him...

I agree - I don't think Smokie is in this. Harper appeared and disappeared with the whisperings. I have no clue how Others do that, but it's consistent.

I'm wondering about her message though. As she came from the Temple (which is where I assume the Others have congregated) - she may have tracked the Freighties and realized that they were going to the Tempest station.

And, she could have given Juliet the message in Ben's name to frighten Juliet into doing what the Others wanted her to do. I mean, Juliet wouldn't go out of her way to help Harper. But, this episode showed us that Juliet has reason to fear Ben when he's crossed. I know Ben is supposed to be powerful, but all I've really seen is his ability to manipulate and intimidate. I don't really believe that Ben communicated with Harper.

Yeah and I don't believe Ben when he says his people don't want him or they would have stormed the village for him. They would never do that unless Ben specifically told them to do it. I think they still have enough faith in Ben to do his bidding. Alpert never suggested that Locke replace Ben only that Locke find his place. The natives are at the Temple where Ben told them to be. I'm betting the Temple is a place of safety.

I dont think it was Ben who sent Harper, I feel its the others themselves trying to purge the island again, losties, ben. freighties, everyone. Remember that the freighties saved everyone. If they hadnt what would of happened? I think Ben was fairly truthful that episode... and that the Others have left him...
I don't know... I still believe Ben is controlling the flock and they are all up to something.

From last weeks episode we know there is transference of the mind across time, but this week the writers seemed to imply that at least Ben could read and transmit thoughts. He knew where Daniel and Charlotte were going possibly by reading their minds and he sent Harper (or something that looks like her) to task Juliet.
Maybe Ben can jump across time and occupy a body other than his own?

I'm gonna go with: Ben didn't communicate with Harper and she manipulates Juliet from the beginning even in the fb!

I don't think Ben sent Harper either, I think it was another manifestation of the Island, but I don't think it was Smokey. Like Ben's mother appeared to him, I think Harper appeared to Juliet and used Ben's name to get Juliet to do something. Plus, the Whispers were used here as well, so I think it was a manifestation.

Yeah, I definitely think Harper was another manifestation of Smokey being controlled by Jacob and/or Ben. Smokey always appears as someone you have a strong emotional connection with, and since Juliet was cheating with Harpers wife there's a big guilt connection there.
I don't know why everyone seems to accept that these "manifestations" are manifestations of Smokey. Just because the Yemmi manifestation lead Eko to Smokey? As for me, I think that Harper was a direct manifestation of Ben.

i highly doubt he's a mind reader... i think he knew Widmore's crew would be coming and what their objective was (thank god for unknown spies)... he sent Richard and the Loyalists to the tempest at season 3 finale and i'm sure they were given a blueprint of what to do... it seems the plan was to test Juliet's loyalty and we saw that she was still, although somewhat reluctantly, on Ben's side cuz she knows he has a plan for the war... Linus is a freakin' architect...

i agree. i think ben set a major plan for season 4's events into motion last season. the alpert-led others are following his plan (or jacob's plan relayed thru ben). ben said in the S3 finale that if jack phoned the freighter, everyone on this island would die. the implication was that the freighties would do the killing. the reality may be that ben knew he was going to have richard alpert gas the island if the freighties showed up. ben delayed miles' money deadline from 3 days to 1 week because he knew the gas purge would render miles' demand moot in just a few days. ben gave locke the widmore video/file nuggets (definitely not his last card, IMO) in exchange for ben's freedom because he knew he needed to get to his gas mask. his "see you at supper" comment to sawyer and hugo was smug. now we know why - there wasn't going to be any supper. so, yes, i think harper's whisper-accompanied visit to jules was smokey-via-jacob/ben in an effort to halt the freightie's dismantling of his grand plan.

on a side note: haven't our losties learned that you don't go into the jungle when it's raining? especially at night?

--billy

I don't know why everyone seems to accept that these "manifestations" are manifestations of Smokey. Just because the Yemmi manifestation lead Eko to Smokey? As for me, I think that Harper was a direct manifestation of Ben.

Now that's an interesting idea, a manifestation of Ben! I don't believe it's Smokey either because of the Whispers. I think the manifestations are something entirely separate of Smokey. There seems to be "special" manifestations for certain people, the horse for Kate, Christian for Jack, Dave for Hurley, so maybe Ben did find a way to use this Island ability for his use. It's an interesting idea, I like the thought!

I just rewatched the scene - and I think it is Miles.

Miles would know that Charlotte and Daniel were going to disable the Tempest.
Miles has the ghost whispering thing
She uses Miles line

If we think about the timeline - this line is used once in the morning by Miles, and the same night by Harper.

I just rewatched the scene - and I think it is Miles.

Miles would know that Charlotte and Daniel were going to disable the Tempest.
Miles has the ghost whispering thing
She uses Miles line

If we think about the timeline - this line is used once in the morning by Miles, and the same night by Harper.

Interesting....

Is this what Miles meant when he told Ben that he would "take care" of Charlotte? Makes me wonder.......

you can't believe anything on the surface on this show. Was it really Harper? If yes, can you believe her when she says Ben sent her?

Lots of good theories.
My guess is that Ben laid out instructions before he was taken prisoner. He knew either through his spy, or common sense, that the first thing they would do is disable his defenses.

Mind reading would be a shark-jumper for me.

There might be secret access tunnels to where Ben was being held, or Harper might have been lying... I kinda prefer the 1st, Harper said Ben was right where he wanted to be.

Ben's still trying to recruit and keep Locke so he wants to stay close to him. With secret tunnels, passageways, etc., Ben can keep in touch with his Loyalist Others while he's playing Locke and keeping tabs on the Losties..

Whoa, thats a cool idea...
I like.

I noticed twice in this episode they dropped the word "hostile." One of those times was in the scene where Harper appears. If you think back to last season and the referencing of the hostiles, is it possible that Harper is a hostile like Alpert and not an Other like Juliet?
Possibly, but I always thought Hostiles and Others were one and the same. I guess I just assumed that whatever group at that time who is seen as "protecting the Island" is considered "hostile" to whatever group is newest to arrive on the Island. I'd say Team Locke has become the new "Hostiles".

But I also think Alpert has been on the Island a very long time and is a descendant of ancient Island Inhabitants. There may be other descendants among the Others though.

But I don't think Harper is like Alpert. There are Dharma/Hanso certificates/licenses on her wall that can be seen in her "therapy" sessions with Juliet so I think she is former Dharma.
100%
Yeah and I don't believe Ben when he says his people don't want him or they would have stormed the village for him. They would never do that unless Ben specifically told them to do it. I think they still have enough faith in Ben to do his bidding. Alpert never suggested that Locke replace Ben only that Locke find his place. The natives are at the Temple where Ben told them to be. I'm betting the Temple is a place of safety.
I hope we see the Temple and the Others again soon. Since "Cane" was cancelled,I'm hoping we get to see Alpert again.

Do we really know who's left alive on the island? Ben says that his people don' want him back or they'd be there to get him.

There are the two from the helicopter.
There are the people on the beach -are they all 815ers?
There are the people with John in Othersville -how many and are they all 815ers?
Are there Others left roaming around?

This info would be helpful in trying to determine if Harper is alive or dead and if it was Harper in the jungle.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure it's real Harper and that she was sent by Ben. How they communicated, remains to be seen, but I do believe that Ben knows the future, whether he is unstuck in time, or simply went through the warp once, and found everything different (which freaked him out, so he started his own mission to stop it), still remains to be seen. I don't think it's Smokey, because that WOULD be purely sci-fi, stupid and unoriginal, and we all hope Lost does not turn into that because of a few minor mysteries (NO, I couldn't care less if Walt and Aaron allegedly had powers, that is the last thing on my mind...hopefully they don't)

Interesting....

Is this what Miles meant when he told Ben that he would "take care" of Charlotte? Makes me wonder.......

Now THAT would be an interesting twist.... I love the fuselage!

I think that the 'manifestations' might all be related to Ben, but he is not necessarily able to control them. They could be manifestations from his subconsciousness amplified by the 'power' of the island. That would explain him seeing his mother when he was a child. He willed it to happen, but it surprised him and he was unable to keep her from running away.

Maybe the question should be: How did Harper communicate with Ben? I like the idea that the Temple, where Richard and the Others are hanging out at the moment, is the place on the Island where it's special, natural properties can be put to use by those people who have the ability to do so. So maybe they've been keeping in touch with Ben and are following his orders by utilizing the Islands powers. That's my guess, anyway.

I just rewatched the scene - and I think it is Miles.

Miles would know that Charlotte and Daniel were going to disable the Tempest.
Miles has the ghost whispering thing
She uses Miles line

If we think about the timeline - this line is used once in the morning by Miles, and the same night by Harper.

I'm glad to see at least someone else thinks the same thing!;)

You're right, she uses Miles line, he does the spirit communication thing and he knows what the mission is, so he would know that they would be heading to the Tempest. I also think this is how he planned to "take care" of Charlotte. And what would he care if Dan was killed too? He doesn't seem to friendly with Dan and he obviously cares more about the money, than the mission. Plus if Juliet killed Dan and Charlotte, no one would think he was responsible for their deaths, since he was tied up and "exactly where he wants to be". It was that line that made the Miles possibility jump out at me. Miles may have been able to cause an "apparition" to appear to Juliet, after all he can talk to "spirits" and he may have gained some intel on Juliet that way. Who knows how things work on this island........:shrug:

Could someone refresh my memory on Mile's line? Thanks.

Mind reading would be a shark-jumper for me.


AFRICKINMEN TO THAT!

I really like the idea that The Others have people living amongst them who can astral project themselves to others (which was part of the reason they abducted Walt).

So I'm fond of the theory that Astral Harper appeared to Juliet the same way Astral Walt appeared to Shannon.

I also like the theory that someone else mentioned, that maybe Astral Harper was communicating with Ben from the Temple by astral projecting herself back to the barracks (where Locke had Ben locked up) so Ben could give her orders.

I embrace the theory that Harper is alive but probably at the Temple with Richard...she astral projected herself to Juliet in the jungle, after astral projecting herself to Ben to receive orders from him.

When Walt appeared to Shannon, Sayid saw him too.

I kind of hate the way smoke monster has been presented to any role in the serie, without any real evidence.

He is currently, jacob, every apparition we have seen from yemi to harper, he is also bens man on the boat, alvar hanso, ezra james sharkington and radzinsky's old teddybear.

I think the whispers are related to this special travelling method on the island.

AFRICKINMEN TO THAT!
I don't know, mind transference seems to be central here so mind reading might not be far off.

I watched the episode again last night and I can't stop thinking that this was nothing more than the smoke monster. We have seen it manifest into people before.... Is it so hard to believe that this was just not another manifestation of smokey as apposed to some elaborate tunnel system with Harper just disappearing? Thoughts?

I agree with the theory that it was Jacob and the reason it manifested as Harper is because it had significance to Juliet. Otherwise couldn't Harper have done it herself alot faster than locating Juliet- perhaps she was not corporeal- they did not touch did they?

^Yeah me too. They seemed to be setting something up with Richard, and I would love it if they were able to continue that thread.

^Yeah me too. They seemed to be setting something up with Richard, and I would love it if they were able to continue that thread.


I think we shall see him soon. But it won't be until at least Ep.9 as that will be the first episode filmed after the strike.

By the way, there was a cool Easter Egg re:"Richard" in Harper's office. On her bookshelf one of the books was "Icons: Divine Beauty" by Richard Temple. The book is about religious icons.

^^^ wow some observations you guys make are amazing

But our Richard's last name if Richard Alpert.

Did anyone notice that when the plane split in the air and they were all watching.. and Ben was sending Goodwin to the tail section, Harper came out of her cabin. There are a couple of shots of her.. The first one, she is alone in the picture, in the second (or third, don't remember) there was a black boy standing behind her (on the left side). He was too far away for me to tell who he was, but maybe someone with a gread HD-TV and zooming ability could screen capture it to see if it was perhaps Walt?

Harper is an interventionist. She has intervened to keep Juliet from making a terrible mistake... in this case, shooting Daniel and Charlotte, I think. She intervened via the Whispers to deliver a Message, then arranged for Goodwin and Juliet to get involved to provoke Ben, so that Juliet wouldn't be trusting Ben by the time she got to the Tempest station...

But our Richard's last name if Richard Alpert.

Did anyone notice that when the plane split in the air and they were all watching.. and Ben was sending Goodwin to the tail section, Harper came out of her cabin. There are a couple of shots of her.. The first one, she is alone in the picture, in the second (or third, don't remember) there was a black boy standing behind her (on the left side). He was too far away for me to tell who he was, but maybe someone with a gread HD-TV and zooming ability could screen capture it to see if it was perhaps Walt?

Yes, I know it's Richard Alpert. Richard Temple is the author of the book about religious icons on Harper's bookshelf. Richard and Temple--- as in that's where Richard A. and the Others were headed. ;)
Plus,I wonder if Four Toes is in the book? LOL!
100%
Harper is an interventionist. She has intervened to keep Juliet from making a terrible mistake... in this case, shooting Daniel and Charlotte, I think. She intervened via the Whispers to deliver a Message, then arranged for Goodwin and Juliet to get involved to provoke Ben, so that Juliet wouldn't be trusting Ben by the time she got to the Tempest station...

I don't know,Goodwin seemed to be attracted to Juliet the very first time they met. I honestly don't think Harper arranged for Juliet and Goodwin to fall in love. And it also sounded to me like Harper was jealous of the attention Ben gave Juliet.

I think Harper was a projection from elsewhere that can only be accomplished with rain or water. I think when she told Juliet "because Ben wants you to" it was like a trigger phrase that Harper had already planted with Juliet but I'm not sure if it was meant to make her shoot them or not shoot them. Harper may hold Ben responsible for Goodwin.

I think we will learn Harper is dead. In fact, I think Juliet killed her. Or let her die in childbirth.

I think you may be onto something here.
Harper's appearance reminded me a lot of Eko and dead Yemi (RIP both).
Honestly, I dont remember Harper's every word to Juliet (I dont even think its worth re-watching this episode), but I know her message involved stopping The Freightastic 2.
Here's my question.. why could Harper do the job herself??





"Welcome to Craphole Island, ill be your host this evening ; )"

I was actually looking through all the threads to see if anyone mentioned this part of the episode.

I was wondering how Ben 'contacted' her to give Juliet a message? That seems to be a very interesting questions as well. I never though that it could've been Smokie manifesting himself as Harper.

She appears and Jack actually saw her as well. Much like how Sawyer saw the black horse too along with Kate, then vanished as well.

I don't think that Ben has anything to do with the Smoke monster. When Juliet and Kate were trekking back to the New Otherton, they came across the 'electric fence' and Juliet was genuinely frightened of Smokie and was running away from it. Also, when Locke was threatening to shoot Ben he said "I still have things you wanna know." In which Locke then asked what was the smoke monster. Ben said he had no idea, and I believed him.
I agree. If Ben controlled Smokey, wouldn't he have sent it to kill the Freighties as soon as they landed?

But why morph into Harper? Why not Harper's dead husband (Juliet's boyfriend) Goodwin? Why not Clair? Why Harper?

Here's my question.. why could Harper do the job herself??

My guess? 'Cuz she's dead. That's my hope too.

My guess? 'Cuz she's dead. That's my hope too.

In that case, why would Juliet ask her if she could do the job herself???

From last weeks episode we know there is transference of the mind across time, but this week the writers seemed to imply that at least Ben could read and transmit thoughts. He knew where Daniel and Charlotte were going possibly by reading their minds and he sent Harper (or something that looks like her) to task Juliet.
Maybe Ben can jump across time and occupy a body other than his own?

The way I see it is if Desmond's consciousness can move through time then maybe some of the Others/Hostiles have gained the ability to move their consciousness through...dead people? Something about Harper was very reminiscent of Ethan and Alpert's first appearance. The words and inflection she used were so Ben. It was if she was channeling Ben.

I think that this is something that Miles understands too. I think that Miles is able to communicate with the consciousness of people who have died.

Didn't the writers say that the guy who plays Alpert was unavailable for some things because he was doing another show?
Maybe this is their way of giving the Others a leader while Ben is captured.

I just don't think she is dead either. I really think she has learned how to project herself so that she can almost be in two places at the same time. There is a phenomenon called Bi-location which sounds like what I mean. Dharma did experiment with the paranormal and given the "time-jumping" we've seen, I think it is entirely possible. We've seen Walt basically "teleport or Bilocate". He appeared to Shannon and Sayid while with the Others which I think was possible in part because he was "special". Maybe Harper was "special" too.

"Bilocation, sometimes multilocation is a term used to describe the ability/instances in which an individual or object is said to be, or appear to be, located in two distinct places at the same instant in time".
100%
Didn't the writers say that the guy who plays Alpert was unavailable for some things because he was doing another show?
Maybe this is their way of giving the Others a leader while Ben is captured.

But his show,Cane was cancelled which might mean we get to see him again at some point. At least I hope so, I thought his character was fascinating!

My guess? 'Cuz she's dead. That's my hope too.


Let me rephrase my comment, I just realized my error.
Why couldnt another Other do the job? and I do think Harper is most likely/possibly dead ; ).
Possible answer to my own question.. unless the temple is too far away from the tempest, but that only brings up more questions... lol.




"Welcome to Craphole Island, ill be your host this evening"

This is all manipulation by Ben. Ben may well have a link to some of the others like ESP, he may have a communication device hidden, or he may have laid out the plan way ahead of time.
My thoughts on why send Harper:
This is a stab to Juliet to let her know her place. Ben wants to remind Juliet who is in charge. The site of Harper did that. She warned Jack about it after she ran off to do Ben's errand. Only after she got there and saw Ben lied again did she tell Jack about Ben giving the order.
Harper is a sheep who fears Ben and hates Juliet. She will do whatever Ben commands. So Ben uses her as a warning to Juliet.

Let me rephrase my comment, I just realized my error.
Why couldnt another Other do the job? and I do think Harper is most likely/possibly dead ; ).
Possible answer to my own question.. unless the temple is too far away from the tempest, but that only brings up more questions... lol.

Who knows...but maybe we'll find out that Harper was the ideal choice as messenger. Maybe not only is she dead but Juliet killed her... making her an eerie messenger indeed (if in fact Ben is behind it all). Still though, Im trying to unravel this scene. Juliet didnt seem to scared or even shocked.

I just rewatched the scene - and I think it is Miles.

Miles would know that Charlotte and Daniel were going to disable the Tempest.
Miles has the ghost whispering thing
She uses Miles line

If we think about the timeline - this line is used once in the morning by Miles, and the same night by Harper.You make some very convincing points... Along with the "I'll take care of Charlotte" line it makes a suspicious amount of sense!

And they did make a point of having Juliet ask how Ben would know where the freighties were going...

I keep going back and forth with the whole Harper appearance and message. I can't decide if she's dead, or alive and teleporting. I'm also not sure whether her "message" is really from Ben or from The Island. Maybe the Island wanted to keep the "doomsday device" available in case it needed to kill everyone to protect itself.

I think that she's alive, and time travel has something to do with her appearing and disappearing like that. I am just in love with the time travel aspect, though.

I believe Benjamin Linus is "special." In the same or similar manner that Walter Lloyd is "special." We have previously seen Walt astral project or bi-locate himself. Walt appeared twice to Shannon and Sayid saw him with Shannon. Walt apparently appeared to John and gave him instructions as well. As John explained to Walt, there are two sides in this conflict. Light and Dark.

In "The Man Behind the Curtain," we see a 10-year old Ben upset. While in his room, he sees what appears to be his mother. His "mother" disappears as Roger walks in. Later, Ben runs into the night and sees his "mother" again just on the other side of the sonic fence. He starts to run to her, but she tells him to stop and that "it isn't time yet." On a future occasion, Ben ventures to the sonic fence during the day and walks into the forest after deactivating it. In the forest, Ben hears whispers then suddenly sees Richard Alpert. Ben tells Richard that he has seen his mother and that she talked to him. Richard seems impressed that Ben has the ability to see a woman who is supposedly dead. Perhaps it is this special ability that ingratiates Ben to the hostiles such that Ben later becomes their leader once he's an adult.

We know that Ben is a very insecure man. Is this part of the reason he sent Walt away? He doesn't want anyone who might appear to be more special than him to be around. Remember his insecurity in season 3 when the Others were looking at Locke as the next potential "chosen one"? Ben leads Locke to a pit and shoots him in cold blood.

In "The Other Woman," Juliet is walking through the forest when she hears whispers. It is raining. Juliet looks all around her, seemingly disoriented. Suddenly, Harper Stanhope is standing there, drenched with rain. Harper stands and speaks very stiffly. Listen carefully to what she says. Her vocabulary and sentence structure are remarkably similar to that of Ben himself. Since we know that Ben has been locked in a basement, we know there is no way that an Other could have walked past John Locke, unlocked the basement door, and spoken to Ben. What if the Harper that is speaking to Juliet is none other than a mental projection created by Ben's own mind? That Ben is himself giving the message to Juliet, only through the projection of Harper? Remember what Miles said to Ben? "Don't treat me like I'm one of them! I know who you are and what you can do!"

Later, in front of the Tempest, Juliet tells Jack that Ben told her to kill Charlotte and Daniel before they could gas the island. Juliet also tells Jack that she doesn't understand how Ben got to her to deliver the message. Perhaps Juliet doesn't know Ben has this particular ability. When Locke brings Ben into the main part of the house, Locke says, 'if I let you free, what's to stop you from running into the jungle and disappearing?" Is this a subtle clue from the writers that it was indeed Ben who was responsible for the appearance and disappearance of Harper in the jungle? It wouldn't be the first time we saw astral projection or bi-location and Ben must have some special ability to have impressed Richard (a man who doesn't appear to age) and for Miles to state what he said about knowing what Ben can do.

Ironflak, You've certainly given me some things to consider. I like the idea that Ben is "special" like Walt. And I do agree,he sent Walt away bec/ he would be "competition" for Ben and bec/ Ben couldn't control Walt which made him another kind of threat to his position as "leader".

I've always thought many of the Losties are "special" including Juliet. And I believe the electromagnetism enhances their "special abilities".

I love this board, but at the moment I don't have time to go through the previous 17 pages to see if this has aready been posted. If it has I appologize.
I really think Harper in the jungle was Smokey. It was, in fact, the first thing I thought of when I saw her.
Smokey is the Island's security system, so if the island somehow thinks the people on will bring more people to exploit it, it would rather kill them all than have that happen.
The Island knows that gas will kill people, it's seen it happen before. It knows where the gas is and how to use it.
So (somehow) it begins the countdown to distribute the gas. That's why its happening when Daniel and Charlotte get there to stop it.
The island knows that they are trying to stop it, so it must send an agent to stop them (Juliette).
But how will Smokey use Juliette?
He has already scanned her memories when she and Kate were hiding from it, now it's going to use those memories to use Juliette.
It knows to use Harper (who isn't dead) to confuse Juliette. Because Juliette knows Harper hates her, Juliette realizes any threat Harper reports must be SERIOUS or else she wouldn't have contacted her.
If it would have been anyone else, Juliette would have had the sense to think that the person was acting unfriendly or strange, but Harper WOULD have acted that way and disappeared quickly. Smokey picked the right memory in the right person to accomplish its mission.
Smokey uses people just like Ben does. He exploist what is dearest to them to make them do what it wants them to.
Hmmmm...That last sentence is making me think of some new, crazy ideas...but that's for another time.
What do you think?

First off, I'm really starting to think that that wasn't really Harper who talked to Juliet, going back over it, it really did seem to be fit in with the other supernatural events we've seen on the show, at this point I'm thinking that it was probably either Harper herself or Ben using bilocation.

Now, I do disagree about Ben wanting to get rid of Walt, IMO the only reason he gave him up to Mike was because he wasn't about to break their deal. I really think that he actually wanted to keep Walt with them so that he could use him, but then he decided (IMO) that he would rather send Michael to the Frieghter to spy for him, and he knew that the only way Michael would leave was with Walt so he pretty much had to give him up.

a couple of days ago I had this idea about the whispers....


What if they come from people who weren't able to find their constants?
People that, for centuries, have tried to leave the island unaware of the whole bearing stuff.
So their minds started time jumping, and since they didn't know about the concept of 'constants', they probably died from brain aneurisms, etc.
Their consciousness got unstuck in time trapped inside the island's snowglobe for ever!!!
From them on, they became the whisperers. Minds without bodies, able to talk thanks, of course, to the Island's specialness!!!

I also have a theory that the smoke monster might be a similar case, with a big difference: this person's consciousness does have a 'body', a plasma-like black cloud of electromagnetic impulses. This might have been the result of the Incident.

And, since I mentioned it, let me tell you that I think Jacob was also around the day of the Incident, probably managing the Swan and being responsible for what actually 'caused' the Incident. So, it is very probably that he had gone through an experience similar to Desmond's when he used the failsafe key. I mean, he might have caused some kind of EM Anomaly.
In other words, he mind time traveled....Now, this is the part where it really gets interesting and mind bending....

From his perspective of time when the Incident took place (1976?), his mind jumped FORWARD in time. But how much forward?

How about a couple of, maybe, months, ahead from where we are now?

Once in the future, he learned the names of certain people that would be quite important for something that needs to happen ON the island, of course. Could it be the people that would end up setting him 'free' from Ben? Could be...

So when he 'came back' to his original time, he made Jacob's list...


The way I see TPTB could pull this off in a very cool way is on a The Constant-like Episode.
This time, Jacob-centered. We see Jacob becoming conscious in a place where some of our losties are (Locke for sure!!!) gathered all together (how about the Temple??). He is confused. He doesn't know anybody there. He keeps asking: WHO are YOU, people? What am I doing here?

And, just like Desmond did on the chopper, but in this case in a more FBYE-way, after some time of being in the future with some losties and others, his mind time jumped back to the moment of the Incident, his 'present' time.

Then we'll finally learn what it was and what happened exactly!!!!


This brings a lot of questions about paradoxes and stuff just like The Constant did, but I really think it would be one hell of a cool episode to finally introduce Jacob. (and with a little bit of more luck, even the smoke monster origin!!!)

Fierro, great post. You should post these ideas in the Whispers thread.