I'm thinking Charles Widmore is owner of the freighter and gave Daniel the map from the first mate's diary he won in the auction.

Me too!

Did the map have the hatch on it? If so, then it was definitely not from the diary.

did anyone catch what was written on the map that Faraday had? I paused it in High Def, but wasn't able to make it out. Anyone?

there was a picture of a dharma logo near the middle/left part of the map, did you see it? I couldn't make out what it was, but it sure looked like a dharma logo

Sorry to say, but that's a horrible screen cap.

So small, even when zoomed in.

Fact, the Dharma Logo was there. After freezing the shot, it IS the Tempest that is label on the map. Obviously their priority is to defend themselves from the islands' protection. Luckily no one was there to Defend\set off the Tempest.

Since Dharma was only built in the 80's, this map could not have been detailed by the journal of the Black Rock.

The map also notes a "Possible -------- ------- Northern Mountains" which I can only assume is the presumed location for the other's camp.

I'm curious about the absolute lack of any of the other hatches being identified. Perhaps Widmore didn't want anyone finding any of the other hatches except for the one needed for survival. I think this map was transcribed by Widmore from bits of other information (including the first mates journal) and given to the landing party on a need to know basis.

I find it very odd that the camp (C) site is located on the map, I doubt if Faraday added it himself. ....

I also notice a (4) or (H) to the bottom right. Perhaps this is the Swan and the directions are to avoid this area.

I can't make out any other of the scratches on the map.

Here is a better one.

http://bp2.blogger.com/_Hxnvg45zlCw/R9Cx0tCKxAI/AAAAAAAAAPg/7mmgPDv57QI/s1600-h/pict+2008-03-06+09-06-269.jpg

Long and Lat on Faraday's map?

Any guesses?

I think its more interesting that they had a map in the first place.
Where would they get a map?


From Michael? It seemed incomplete.

I think its more interesting that they had a map in the first place.
Where would they get a map?


From Michael? It seemed incomplete.


Hmmm. interesting.

Note the longitude and latitude - it appears to be 8N 33E.

If true, that would be in the Atlantic Ocean.

The text at the top seems to say something like, "Possible XXXXX through northern XXXXXXX".

Anyone?

Lots of "unknowns" on that map. A clue that their mission was very focused?

if what you say about the longitude and latitude are correct, then that is certainly an interesting find! The ATLANTIC OCEAN. Also, note that 8 is one of the numbers and 4 is on the map as well. There is a C on there which i believe stands for cabins

Lots of "unknowns" on that map. A clue that their mission was very focused?

If you look bottom right there seem to be very specific step by step directions to somewhere, presumably the Tempest.

Looks like "Possible pass through Northern Mountains" to me.

If you look bottom right there seem to be very specific step by step directions to somewhere, presumably the Tempest.

Right. It looks like that's the one pictured right by his thumb. The C could be for the beach Camp.

"Possible Door Through Northern Mountains"

8 N 45 E
Follow the river
To the

Due West towards
the smaller mountains

the north



ETA: pass makes more sense than door

The bottom as best I can tell:

Follow the river to the east end of
the ????. Head
due east towards
the smaller mountain
range. Helipad found
just north of mountains.

I'm guessing H stands for Helipad? Unless I'm reading that word wrong.

Looks like "Possible pass through Northern Mountains" to me.
Yeah, I would go with that.

Is the bigger question what the dharma logo is under his thumb? Is that for the tempest station? It's on the west side of the island, but the other directions imply that they are north and/or east. So what other places might the map lead to?

Is the bigger question what the dharma logo is under his thumb? Is that for the tempest station? It's on the west side of the island, but the other directions imply that they are north and/or east. So what other places might the map lead to?
If we assume that the map was made without knowledge that the Losties crashed on the island (the freighter people certainly weren't expecting them) then the Dharma logo is probably either the main camp or the Tempest station. We know the Dharma camp is near the water so that would make sense and the directions would be to the Tempest station.

I think he found part of Charlie's map to the Lonely Mountain.

yeah, I think it's interesting how many "unknowns" there are too... and the "norths" remind me of Eko's stick that told Locke to go north

C&H. Pure cane sugar. From Hawaii. Sweetened by the sun...

Yes, indeed. But how would the mole have known about the Tempest's location unless Ben communicated that to the mole? And if Ben told the mole where the Tempest was, and the mole told Charlotte and Daniel where the Tempest was, does this mean that Ben wanted Charlotte and Daniel to find the Tempest? Argh!

C&H. Pure cane sugar. From Hawaii. Sweetened by the sun...

Yes, indeed. But how would the mole have known about the Tempest's location unless Ben communicated that to the mole? And if Ben told the mole where the Tempest was, and the mole told Charlotte and Daniel where the Tempest was, does this mean that Ben wanted Charlotte and Daniel to find the Tempest? Argh!


When you're replying to anything that's been spoiler-fonted, you need to be careful about what you say.
From reading what you wrote, others can tell what was being hidden ...

:smile:

It seems that Widmore may have got some incomplete information from people related to the Dharma Initiative. At least enough to create a semi-usable map of the island and where they would need to go. It definitely seems that making the gas inert was part of the plan from the get-go.

Well I just looked at a close up of the map on another post, and the "C" is near the water which tells me it stands for CAMP. And the "H" is a little bit away but not on the other side of the island, and what have we all seen not to far from the camp the begins with "H"? well for anyone who hasnt seen season 2 let me answer this one for ya HATCH. Is my theory is right, this would tell me that whom ever created this map was one the survivors of Oceanic flight 815, Specailly where you can see much of the map says unknown for none of them have seen the entire Island. Now just which one is it and are they on the boat double crossing Ben? I dont think we have seen enough yet to made any educated guesses.

Well I just looked at a close up of the map on another post, and the "C" is near the water which tells me it stands for CAMP. And the "H" is a little bit away but not on the other side of the island, and what have we all seen not to far from the camp the begins with "H"? well for anyone who hasnt seen season 2 let me answer this one for ya HATCH. Is my theory is right, this would tell me that whom ever created this map was one the survivors of Oceanic flight 815, Specailly where you can see much of the map says unknown for none of them have seen the entire Island. Now just which one is it and are they on the boat double crossing Ben? I dont think we have seen enough yet to made any educated guesses.


I like this theory.

"Possible Door Through Northern Mountains"

8 N 45 E
Follow the river
To the

Due West towards
the smaller mountains

the north

ETA: pass makes more sense than door

Is there anything other than latitude and longitude that "8N 33E" or "8N 45E" could mean? There are no distances listed so they are not island directions.
100%
The bottom as best I can tell:

Follow the river to the east end of
the ????. Head
due east towards
the smaller mountain
range. Helipad found
just north of mountains.

I'm guessing H stands for Helipad? Unless I'm reading that word wrong.

It definitely says "helipad". Among other things, is this the escape route for Charlotte and Daniel?

can anyone post a screenca of the map please, i'm not sure where to find one.

I agree with you about "Camp", but I don't think that "Hatch" is very likely. The map the Tempest Dharma logo on it, implying that whoever made the map knows about the Dharma stations and wouldn't refer to the Swan as "the Hatch". My non-interesting guess is that it stands for "Helicopter" so that they remember how to get back to where they landed. The map is at least partially a work in progress.

At this point, I'm guessing they got the map through Widmore (and his little Hanso black book?).

Heres a screencapo for those who havnt seen it!

http://bp2.blogger.com/_Hxnvg45zlCw/R9Cx0tCKxAI/AAAAAAAAAPg/7mmgPDv57QI/s1600-h/pict+2008-03-06+09-06-269.jpg

I'm guessing the "H" has something to do with the Island they took Jack, Kate and Sawyer to. It's sits over an outcropping of Islands and we know that the 3 were on an Island off the Island... What the "H" stands for is a whole other ball game. Maybe "Headquarters"?

I'm fairly sure "H" is for Helipad. It says so in the text in the lower right of the map with directions leading right to it. I could be reading that word wrong but I dunno what else it could possibly be. "C" for Camp would be pretty consistent with the location of the camp on all other maps, but who knows.

Follow the river to the east end of
the ????. Head
due east towards
the smaller mountain
range. Helipad found
just north of mountains.

Edit: better screencap http://waffleimages.nwpshost.com/files/e4/e4f25d69b23230d7eb1bc4661def625deefbebdf.jpg

Very cool. Gotta love the Dharma logo on it. That says alot about the map-maker, the familiarity of it all.

"H" could stand for the Hydra Station, which was on the smaller island.

I saw those same two symbols this morning on the bathroom sink faucet handles!:eek2: On the serious side I did a check on Wiki and found that H can refer to " Additional Information " and C can refer to " Quantity, Identifies the number of equipment items present.". That may be a dead end. Number of trees on map = ???

H could stand for the Hydra Station, which was on the smaller island.

The text that accompanies the H clearly indicates that it is a Helipad if you read what it says. It's easier to read in the HD screencap. They are directions that start at the C (presumably Camp) and direct the reader to follow the river to the bend, then to head east towards the small mountains (the ones next to the H). It then says the helipad is just north of those small mountains, which is where it is shown. Unfortunately I don't think there's much to take from the map from what we've been shown. Edit: sorry, after re-reading this it sounded like I was attempting to come off as brash or condescending, but I assure you I'm not. That's just my best guess.

C&H. Pure cane sugar. From Hawaii. Sweetened by the sun...

Yes, indeed. But how would the mole have known about the Tempest's location unless Ben communicated that to the mole? And if Ben told the mole where the Tempest was, and the mole told Charlotte and Daniel where the Tempest was, does this mean that Ben wanted Charlotte and Daniel to find the Tempest? Argh!

After watching The other woman and Ben's behavior in it, I think he did want them to find it.

H could be hostiles. (Locke)

What do we make of the 8 degrees N, 55 degrees E notation? If it's latitude and longitude, it represents a location southwest of India, nowhere near the Pacific Ocean or the Sunda trench.

What do we make of the 8 degrees N, 55 degrees E notation? If it's latitude and longitude, it represents a location southwest of India, nowhere near the Pacific Ocean or the Sunda trench.


Is it 55 or 33E? I couldn't quite make it out. 33E is in the Atlantic.

Is it 55 or 33E? I couldn't quite make it out. 33E is in the Atlantic.
Actually, 33E would be in Africa somewhere. Could be 33, though.

Is it 55 or 33E? I couldn't quite make it out. 33E is in the Atlantic.
I saw 33. There is another thread on this.

Not being the wilderness type, could that just be a heading (i.e. direction of a compass)? and not refer to Lat/Long? It is listed right with directions to what seems to be a helipad.

I think its very obvious that C is the camp and H is the helipad. Why are we coming up with crazy "Hydra" stations and such?

My question is - which hatch is that up the coast from the "C" - is that The Tempest?

Follow the river to the east end of
the ????. Head
due east towards
the smaller mountain
range. Helipad found
just north of mountains.

I think the "????" are "GROTTO +" (with the "+" meaning "and")

My one Big problem (other than who drew the map) is why so much is marked unknown. If this was drawn by a island inhabitant why wouldn't they know what was where?

If Ben has a man on their boat, maybe the freightees have a man in Ben's crew that has been supplying information such as maps?

I think the ???? are GROTTO + (with the + meaning and) Yeah I think you're right, and it makes sense given the context of the directions.

None of the 'normal' (I'll come back to this later!) survivors of Flight 815 should know anything about this station. That would include Michael. It is being long suspected that Widmore Construction was in charged of building the bunkers. Then, why didn't Widmore know where to find the island? Or he did know where it was, but he/they couldn't get inside the snowglobe? So they could have gotten the maps from Widmore's people.
OR, like I suspect, Daniel has been on the island before. And he made that map a long time ago.

But, now, I would like to come back to the 'not normal' people amongst the passengers of 815....Actually, I am talking about Walt....
It is, also, been speculated that he is able, amongst many other things, to astral project, bilocate and achieve remote viewing.
So there you go, he could have gotten that info from unconventional means...And this would make even more sense if he is Ben's spy. So, could he be playing on both sides without knowing that he is being fooled by Ben????


Or Did Ben actually want them to get to the Tempest and do what they did? That sounds very very very Ben-ish!!!!!!!

So, could Faraday actually have activated the gas instead of render it inert without realizing??????

So now this gas might be automatically released on a date that ONLY Ben knows....

Think about it... He is kind of FREE now.... He has a big advantage over everybody else on the island. He knows WHEN this is gonna happen. So he just have to wait for the right moment and then escape towards the Temple.

Now, let's go back to Jack's desperate state of mind in Season 3 finale....
Question:

Was the gas about to be released at the same time that the Oceanic 6 were leaving the island?

Remember Abaddon's question?

'Are they still alive?'

Is it 55 or 33E? I couldn't quite make it out. 33E is in the Atlantic.
Personally, I don't see any way it could be 33. However, 55E IS the same longitude as the Seychelles, where Sayid killed the Italian golfer, about 1,000 miles due north. It's also right off the coast of Somalia, where HANSO has a hospital. I don't see what those could possibly mean other than a latitude and longitude. Maybe it marks the other end of the wormhole that connects to the helipad at H.

Edit: Although, the geometry surrounding the island is pretty weird. Maybe it is best understood through its own local spherical geometry, so that 8/55 is some sort of local latitude and longitude.

Personally, I don't see any way it could be 33. However, 55E IS the same longitude as the Seychelles, where Sayid killed the Italian golfer, about 1,000 miles due north. It's also right off the coast of Somalia, where HANSO has a hospital. I don't see what those could possibly mean other than a latitude and longitude. Maybe it marks the other end of the wormhole that connects to the helipad at H.

Edit: Although, the geometry surrounding the island is pretty weird. Maybe it is best understood through its own local spherical geometry, so that 8/55 is some sort of local latitude and longitude.


I agree 55 makes more sense than 33. I was only going by the readability of the characters. It just looked like 33 to me.

I can't help but think the 8N 55E are just some sort of simple on-island coordinate system used to relate the position of H to the position of C. It would make sense since there seem to be some grid markings along the top and side of the map, since the coordinates themselves are accompanied by directions from C to H and since the H itself is slightly north and much further east relative to C. Then again it's impossible to say definitively what it could mean at this point.

I can't help but think the 8N 55E are just some sort of simple on-island coordinate system used to relate the position of H to the position of C. It would make sense since there seem to be some grid markings along the top and side of the map, since the coordinates themselves are accompanied by directions from C to H and since the H itself is slightly north and much further east relative to C. Then again it's impossible to say definitively what it could mean at this point.

I would think 8N 55E is longitude and latitude - you don't need both numerical instructions and verbal instructions to go from C to H. I think the numbers likely provide a GPS location and the instructions a means to get there on foot.

The thing I find odd about the map is the level of detail for such a simple map. The mountains are shaded, trees are individually represented, waves drawn where the ocean is instead of just writing "water". The Dharma logo looks like it took some time to draw, and the writing on the map looks just like an architect's printing.

Is it just production value? I know if I was going to draw a simple map for someone, it would look a hell of a lot sloppier.

I thought the journal was found on an island elsewhere. I assumed that the Black Rock crashed after the journal was found. Or I guess it could have crashed and then the first mate got off the island and left with the journal.

Is there any information to clarify this?

Did the map have the hatch on it? If so, then it was definitely not from the diary.

If the map was taken directly from the book and there is a hatch marking on it.
That would put Dharma back to 1845 and possibly earlier.
Interesting.

screen shot of it out yet? Dharma was from the 1970's, not the 1800's, so it could not be from the Black Rock.

EDIT: here is the map. Definitely NOT from the Black Rock. Question answered.
http://gallery.lost-media.com/albums/ep-caps/season4/4x06/otherwomancap153.jpg

The map also notes a "Possible -------- ------- Northern Mountains" which I can only assume is the presumed location for the other's camp.

I read it, figured it out, erased it, then forgot it. Has something to do with a pass...as in a pass or path to the northern mountains.

half a DhARMA logo. Everything being secretive as it is, I see no need to put other stations on the map, just the one they need to get to.

H most likely "helipad" based on other things I've read here.

it's a pretty well drawn map. to bad we don't know anyone on the show who's an artist......

I thought the journal was found on an island elsewhere. I assumed that the Black Rock crashed after the journal was found. Or I guess it could have crashed and then the first mate got off the island and left with the journal.

Is there any information to clarify this?

if the journal was from before the black rock landed on the island, of what use would it be? The first mate had to have gotten off the island, the journal probably explains how he did, and that is why widmore wanted it, it explains how to get too and from the island.

Fact, the Dharma Logo was there. After freezing the shot, it IS the Tempest that is label on the map. Obviously their priority is to defend themselves from the islands' protection. Luckily no one was there to Defend\set off the Tempest.

Since Dharma was only built in the 80's, this map could not have been detailed by the journal of the Black Rock.

The map also notes a "Possible -------- ------- Northern Mountains" which I can only assume is the presumed location for the other's camp.

I'm curious about the absolute lack of any of the other hatches being identified. Perhaps Widmore didn't want anyone finding any of the other hatches except for the one needed for survival. I think this map was transcribed by Widmore from bits of other information (including the first mates journal) and given to the landing party on a need to know basis.

I find it very odd that the camp (C) site is located on the map, I doubt if Faraday added it himself. ....

I also notice a (4) or (H) to the bottom right. Perhaps this is the Swan and the directions are to avoid this area.

I can't make out any other of the scratches on the map.

there is a nice hi res screencap floating around that shows the map, you can make out most of that writing about the mountain, and it states there is a helipad there

I think it says to follow the river to the east end of the island...

It's pretty weird how they have a different number of question marks for each unknown. The far North is ?Unknown?, the center/west is Unknown? and then the center(?) of the island is just Unknown. So H is for helipad, we have a dharma station in there with an unidentifiable logo, maybe the C is for "crash"? The mountain pass sounds like it will be important in some future season or something, but the fact that "they" included it on his map means that he might need to know that sort of information. That is providing he got it from someone off island...

8N 33E isn't in the Atlantic Ocean, it's on the Sudan - Ethiopian Border in Africa.
8N 45E is is near the Ethiopian-Somalia border.

I'd say the co-ords are relative to something other than UTC/Equator
A degree in Guessatamology tells me that 1 degree is equal to 70 miles.
If the reference point was the Internaltion Date Line, that would put it in the Pacific Ocean, southeast of Ha'waii, which might make more sense.

yeah, was coming to post those coordinates put them in Sudan.

That's not too far from Tunisia where Charlotte found the Polar bear.

we have a dharma station in there with an unidentifiable logo

It's pretty obvious that it's the tempest station (little wave in the middle).

http://gallery.lost-media.com/albums/ep-caps/season4/4x06/otherwomancap153.jpg

http://gallery.lost-media.com/albums/ep-caps/season4/4x06/otherwomancap522.jpg

it's a pretty well drawn map. to bad we don't know anyone on the show who's an artist......

But there were no sunburnt penguins on the map!

Danielle's maps are better.

If the H is helipad, that means they just created the map OR they knew enough about the island to plan their landing and frank was able to pull it off.

Also
- Note how it trails off on the right side, is this just the left side of the island?
- Note all the tiny black marks top and right side? Looks like it was sent by fax maybe? Why no tiny marks left and bottom?
- can anyone read under Daniel's left thumb?

What's so neat is the attention to detail, all those calculus equations on the chalkboard impressed me. I love the scientist connections. Faraday, et al is really cool. Someone on the writers staff knows something about math and physics.

The fact that the map is on a square piece pf paper, and the journal is a standard rectangular book size makes me think there's no way it could have come from the journal. It could have been a photocopy, however, with markings on it.

8N 33E isn't in the Atlantic Ocean, it's on the Sudan - Ethiopian Border in Africa.
8N 45E is is near the Ethiopian-Somalia border.

I'd say the co-ords are relative to something other than UTC/Equator
A degree in Guessatamology tells me that 1 degree is equal to 70 miles.
If the reference point was the Internaltion Date Line, that would put it in the Pacific Ocean, southeast of Ha'waii, which might make more sense.


But if it is 8N 55E its off the coast in the Indian Ocean.

The Indian Ocean would help answer several questions -
It is close enough to be reached by the Yemi drug plane.
It would be north of Madagascar where the journal was found.
It is in reasonable proximity to Tunisia.

But there were no sunburnt penguins on the map!

Maybe not penguins...

http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage-77-199.html

Handwriting looks the same to me.

Can anyone read under Daniel's left thumb?

Whats with all the tiny black marks top and right side? Looks like it was sent by fax maybe?

If Michael is the cartographer then how would he know the location and symbol for the Tempest?

What if the 8N 33E is 8 minutes north 33 minutes east from the camp to the helipad (C) and (H) --pure cane sugar from Hawaii. Travel time and directions.

Who made the map? And when? Who would know the Tempest symbol/location but not know the Unknown regions? Why? Why, Darlton, why?

If Michael is it and he is Ben's spy, he could have told Michael to give them some information, to have a good cover.

The real question is why did the prop people rip off Christopher Tolkien's map of Mordor?

The bottom as best I can tell:

Follow the river to the east end of
the ????. Head
due east towards
the smaller mountain
range. Helipad found
just north of mountains.

I'm guessing H stands for Helipad? Unless I'm reading that word wrong.


That missing word looks like 'Grotto' to me.

The thing I find odd about the map is the level of detail for such a simple map. The mountains are shaded, trees are individually represented, waves drawn where the ocean is instead of just writing "water". The Dharma logo looks like it took some time to draw, and the writing on the map looks just like an architect's printing.

Is it just production value? I know if I was going to draw a simple map for someone, it would look a hell of a lot sloppier.
Very very good point... unless you were an artist! and we know who was an artist, don't we?

I think Faraday's map showed that the freigties have a lot of information on the island but they don't know everything, Unknown was printed on several places on the map.

Very very good point... unless you were an artist! and we know who was an artist, don't we?

In a way, I hope the snitch isn't him. Give us a twist, Darlton! :D

In a way, I hope the snitch isn't him. Give us a twist, Darlton! :D
Maybe he needs to come back cause he played such a crummy part that now no one wants to hire him for other acting gigs! LOL
He needs to redeem himself. :redface:

Fact, the Dharma Logo was there. After freezing the shot, it IS the Tempest that is label on the map. Obviously their priority is to defend themselves from the islands' protection. Luckily no one was there to Defend\set off the Tempest.

Since Dharma was only built in the 80's, this map could not have been detailed by the journal of the Black Rock.

.

Yes it could

It took the rocket 31 additional mintues to reach the island from its particular angle. The helicopter took even longer

The Black Rock could have entered the void in 1860 and arrived in 1970 and it could seem like a 10 minute ride for them

With this time void slowing down time for journies to the Island we are no longer sure when Rousaau, the Black Rock, or the food supply drops were sent through. It also explains that Richard only seems not to age but is probably only 30 or so years old.

Search my name under Black rock if you want to read it all.

Most likely this map was drawn by the guy Widmore was drop kicking... For me, its most important to connect answers from the episode itself first----before looking to other episodes and this epi showed some type of interragation of Others by Widmore.

But to say it would be unusual for this map to be in the black rock ledger is not correct as many people believe Richard is the first mate from the Black Rock.

The text at the top seems to say something like, "Possible XXXXX through northern XXXXXXX".

Anyone?

I was thinking "possible pass through northern mountains"

why is there trees in the water on the pic?

I was just wondering if anyone else thinks that the writing on the map looks like the writing from Daniels own journal. It seems like he is the one that made all of the notes on the map??

The thing I find odd about the map is the level of detail for such a simple map. The mountains are shaded, trees are individually represented, waves drawn where the ocean is instead of just writing "water". The Dharma logo looks like it took some time to draw, and the writing on the map looks just like an architect's printing.

Is it just production value? I know if I was going to draw a simple map for someone, it would look a hell of a lot sloppier.I know, right? It should have been hastily scribbled on the back of a post-it.

I was just wondering if anyone else thinks that the writing on the map looks like the writing from Daniels own journal. It seems like he is the one that made all of the notes on the map??

I thought you said Danielle, and I was going to agree with you. It totally looks like the same drawing style of Danielle's map of Lostia that Sayid found. (assuming that she actually even drew it.)

It also looks just like the map that Benry gave Sayid to find the hot air balloon with.

Simple answer is that the same artist that works on "Lost" drew all of them, just as Jack Bender the director, painted all the murals, and paintings that look alike------------------------>

I thought you said Danielle, and I was going to agree with you. It totally looks like the same drawing style of Danielle's map of Lostia that Sayid found. (assuming that she actually even drew it.)

It also looks just like the map that Benry gave Sayid to find the hot air balloon with.

Simple answer is that the same artist that works on "Lost" drew all of them, just as Jack Bender the director, painted all the murals, and paintings that look alike------------------------>
Here's a link to the Lostpedia maps page.
http://www.lostpedia.com/wiki/Maps
Danielle's map - yes,
Ben's radio tower map - yes
Ben's hot air baloon map - no
The person making these maps knows how to draw and is focused on landmarks and obsticles.. same hand though.. very obviously.