So, Zack and Emma (the children) were in the tail section? Anyway, the list . . . what's it all mean?

It's sounding more and more like something Ben made up on the fly, as an excuse to "keep" those he wants... like Emma and Zach.
And he let Goodwin continue to try to win Ana Lucia a place on his phony list.... so that Goodwin would stay with the Tailies..

Good question. Juliet didn't look surprised or even question it and it had only been 3 weeks since the crash...

Well supposedly The List is made up from those whom Jacob deems to be "good." So that's where that list came from.

Perhaps "marginal" characters such as Ana Lucia could be bargained for? OR maybe Ben just used a woman's name in an attempt to make Juliet suspicious of Goodwin.

Ben made up the whole "List" story as a way to get the Others to help him kidnap and keep those he wants.
He led Goodwin on, making him believe he might earn Ana Lucia a place on the phony List. That was part of his plan to keep Goodwin away from Juliet.

Care to offer some of the things that you're seeing more and more of that lead you to this? Because I do'nt see it at all. Not saying I see anything ruling it out either, but I don't see anything that has led me to this conclusion.

No, I see it that way, too, for sure. I believe Ben brought down the plane too.

I think the OP is saying that Ben is trying to create his own little world with his little wifey Juliet to replace "her" and Emma and Zack as their children. See the thread re: who "HER" is and you'll see a bunch of theories, like that "her" is Annie who died in childbirth with Ben's child. He is trying to replace them.

He clearly is manipulating situations to whatever he wants, which could very well include this list of people.

Juliet wisely suggests the children don't belong there, Ben defensively says "they're on the list"..
Ben wants to get Goodwin out of his hair, he lets Goodwin futilely work to prove Ana Lucia's goodness, despite her not being on the supposed "list".

It's one more tool he uses to manipulate people. Like he said, "I always have a plan."

Yes, LostLaura, Ben wanted to set up a nice little family with Juliet, Zach, and Emma.

So Ben tells Juliette, Goodwin is still on his mission. Mentions him
trying to get Ana Lucia to convert or whatever. Pretty much BS that
he was telling Juliette.

Anyway...

Ben says that Ana Lucia was not on the list, which I assume he meant
Jacob's List, right?! But Goodwin was gonna stay with the mission anyways.
More BS

I am beginning to think their is no list, perhaps he is and/or was
getting guidance by this Jacob fellow, but I still think this list thing
is pure BS.

Kinda like the Magic Box theory.. He convinced Locke that he (locke)
brought his father to the island. After Anthony Sewards story and evidence
of him being brought there, it seems to be apparent that the "island is the
box" and Ben controlled what was brought into the box/island though, which
convinced people that what has happening was cause they believed Ben.

I feel the man behind the curtain is being unraveled. Falling apart. However,
I think we have not seen the full ramifications of his master plan and I think
his character will see some changes. possible alliance with John Locke which
seems to be set into motion.

Part of the plan?!

That Ben is good!

Tru Dat! But you have to remember that once the plane crashed Ben deployed spies to see if there were any survivors and the to "...bring him a list..." so of course we are assuming this happened...NOW about the "Other" list....I truly believe that Ben has recruited Sayid to handle his "Dirty Work" outside the Island (Getting rid of the Whitmore Clan that are searching for the Island because they will eventually kill the Freighters) and the "List" Sayid is referring to are those of the Whitmore Clan....Hmmmm

it must be nice to go through life having already seen the future... would give you some CONFIDENCE!

No, I see it that way, too, for sure. I believe Ben brought down the plane too.

I think the OP is saying that Ben is trying to create his own little world with his little wifey Juliet to replace "her" and Emma and Zack as their children. See the thread re: who "HER" is and you'll see a bunch of theories, like that "her" is Annie who died in childbirth with Ben's child. He is trying to replace them.

He clearly is manipulating situations to whatever he wants, which could very well include this list of people.


I very much agree with you about Ben bringing the plane down. I haven't been able to rewatch the episode a second time, but I know there was almost a direct indication that Ben brought the plane down. What was the scene last night just before they show the others watching the plane explode and Ben giving the orders? Harper (or someone) says something to the effect that Ben always gets what he wants or can make things happen or something? Can anyone else expand on this for me?

No, I see it that way, too, for sure. I believe Ben brought down the plane too.

I think the OP is saying that Ben is trying to create his own little world with his little wifey Juliet to replace "her" and Emma and Zack as their children. See the thread re: who "HER" is and you'll see a bunch of theories, like that "her" is Annie who died in childbirth with Ben's child. He is trying to replace them.

He clearly is manipulating situations to whatever he wants, which could very well include this list of people.

That makes little sense. How did Ben bring down the plane? It has already been explained that Desmond caused the crash by skipping the code entry in the Sawn. Are you forgetting this, or saying that it was just a huge coincidence? I thought TPTB had confirmed that Desmond was in fact the exact reason for the crash.

I think that part of the list is from Jacob, while Ben may add a name or two for is own reasons

I think TPTB have explicitly stated that Desmond's actions (or inactions) were solely responsible for bringing the plane down.

And, I think he made up the magic box too...
traveling to and from the island and bringing back
things for people is part of the illusion. these things
just happen to appear on the island?! no!! ben
finds out what you are emotionally tied to and brings it
to you.

He is the magic box

That makes little sense. How did Ben bring down the plane? It has already been explained that Desmond caused the crash by skipping the code entry in the Sawn. Are you forgetting this, or saying that it was just a huge coincidence? I thought TPTB had confirmed that Desmond was in fact the exact reason for the crash.

Many people don't agree with me, but I've typed this out in several threads so I might as well type it in one more. :smile:

TPTB did confirm that Desmond brought down the plane. This is true. But I believe that Ben manipulated the circumstances that led to Desmond being away from the button. I believe that Ben and Kelvin were in contact and that Ben had Kelvin create a situation where he knew that Desmond would follow him out of the hatch at the precise time. Especially if Ben can time travel his consciousness, maybe he saw the future and knew that the plane was coming. Who knows? But just because Desmond was the cause of the plane coming down, doesn't mean Ben didn't make sure that Desmond would be away from that button.

Again, I understand why people don't buy that theory. But it's something I've long held and still feel is possible, *especially* after last night. He wasn't surprised at all that a spinal surgeon was on that plane, and I don't believe him at all when he tells Jack that he was surprised. Puh-leeze.

I think that part of the list is from Jacob, while Ben may add a name or two for is own reasons

I agree with this. I still believe in Jacob and that he communicates with Ben. Perhaps Jacob advises him which people are good and Ben forms the list. The list Ms. Klugh gave Michael was all Ben though. We know Jack wasn't on Jacob's list, and Kate and Sawyer were used to manipulate Jack into doing the surgery. So Ben does do his own lists too.

But you have to remember that once the plane crashed Ben deployed spies to see if there were any survivors and the to "...bring him a list..."

I think these lists were descriptions and just names of the people. Ben had knowledge of everyone on that flight, but he didn't know who survived and who died in the crash. Goodwin and Ethan were to give lists on who survived. They described what they were wearing so the random Others that did the kidnapping would know who to take.

Especially if Ben can time travel his consciousness, maybe he saw the future and knew that the plane was coming. Who knows?

I'm really beginning to like this theory. Ben didn't cause the crash, but maybe he knew it was coming. I like it a lot!

Thanks, DB! :)

I don't think that Goodwin was making a case for Ana Lucia at all. Ben was just saying that to make Juliet upset and think that she and Goodwin had some sort of relationship going on.

I don't think that Ben wasn't excited that a spinal surgeon was on the plane, but at that moment his priority was Juliet, and winning her affection, or rather, getting back at her for doing what she did. That was foremost on his mind, and from the looks of it it was all-consuming.

So, Zack and Emma (the children) were in the tail section? Anyway, the list . . . what's it all mean?

When Ben sent Ethan and Goodwin,did he ask them to make lists? :confused: If the lists were already made -- at the moment the plane pieces landed, how did that happen? I'm confused about the origin of these lists.

When Ben sent Ethan and Goodwin,did he ask them to make lists? :confused: If the lists were already made -- at the moment the plane pieces landed, how did that happen? I'm confused about the origin of these lists.
I think the lists Goodwin and Ethan were to make and bring back to Ben in "three days", were simply the list of the survivors and their descriptions of what they were wearing (as DB said). This gives the Others a list of the survivors (and what they look like etc...), which can then be used to see which of THOSE survivors are actually on Jacob's list of "good" people (and can later be kidnapped by the others, re: getting their descriptions)

Cause the tail section was merely only an "hour" away, that's why the Others focused on them first, and were able to send a "group" the first night to get rid of the "threats" (Eko, etc...). No kidnapping happened until Week 2, where Goodwin would have already been able to get his original list of the survivors back to the Others/Ben (as 3 days is obviously shorter than 2 weeks)... and those survivors of the tail section who were "good" (or on Jacob's list), were then kidnapped.

Bea's list (the one given to Michael) was a completely seperate list, completely for Ben's benefit (to get Jack to do his surgery)

I don't think Ben crashed the plane. I think it hit the EM surge Desmond created. I'm not convinced Desmond and Kelvin are part of the Dharma revolt. Their being there to push the button served Ben's purpose w/o Ben having to send his own people down there. Remember the lid "contaminated." Who put that there? Not the DI, they were dead. Had to be the Hostiles.

In the light of the Juliet affair I think sending Goodwin and Ethan away was part of Ben plan to get to Juliet for "cheating". Mikhail was gathering up all the information Ben needed at the Flame station. Perhaps Goodwin and Ethan were needed to confirm who survived, but it might have not been all that necessary. Ben was simply removing Goodwin from the picture. Maybe Ethan too for reasons we'll find out later. Our Ben is fond of purging. He'd been great in the Politburo. He would have been standing right next to Brezhnev.

I also think Ben injects his own will as he pleases into the overplan as dictated by Jacob.

This is not to say I don't think Ben has mental powers. In the cabin scene when Jacob went psycho and broke the lantern, starting a fire. We see Ben looking intensely at the fire. Afterward the he emerges with the lantern, unbroken. I think Ben fixed it while in there alone with Jacob with his mental powers.

Remember the lid "contaminated." Who put that there? Not the DI, they were dead. Had to be the Hostiles.

It's possible it was Ben after the purge. He did this to keep the workers in the Swan from freely roaming around. Or perhaps it was by the DI after the 'incident' mentioned by Marvin Candle in the Pearl Orientation video.

The hatch door said 'quarantine'. The button pushing thing only started after the 'indicent'. The 'incident' is something different from the purge.

…The button pushing thing only started after the 'indicent'. The 'incident' is something different from the purge.

I realize that. The way I see it. The DI folks did 3-year shifts after the incident, Well, after the purge, the Hostiles had to keep the Swan crew clueless about the nature of the purge and having them stuck down there solved the problem of staffing the Swan. So they capped the Hatch with "contaminated" lid and kept them believing it was unsafe to come out. Radzinski did himself in with cabin fever, and then Kelvin found Desmond to replace Radzinski and allow Kelvin to plan his escape. By this time he had figured out it was a ruse, or at least the threat was gone after so many years and being a DI agent among Hostiles was not such a good thing.

That's my thinking at the moment, until we get more information.

I think the lists Goodwin and Ethan were to make and bring back to Ben in "three days", were simply the list of the survivors and their descriptions of what they were wearing (as DB said). This gives the Others a list of the survivors (and what they look like etc...), which can then be used to see which of THOSE survivors are actually on Jacob's list of "good" people (and can later be kidnapped by the others, re: getting their descriptions)

Cause the tail section was merely only an "hour" away, that's why the Others focused on them first, and were able to send a "group" the first night to get rid of the "threats" (Eko, etc...). No kidnapping happened until Week 2, where Goodwin would have already been able to get his original list of the survivors back to the Others/Ben (as 3 days is obviously shorter than 2 weeks)... and those survivors of the tail section who were "good" (or on Jacob's list), were then kidnapped.

Bea's list (the one given to Michael) was a completely seperate list, completely for Ben's benefit (to get Jack to do his surgery)

That is a great post! :smile: You explained this very clearly and my poor muddled brain thanks you!

Now that I understand about the lists of survivors/descriptions vs the lists of good people to kidnap and bad people to eliminate -- I can just worry about how Jacob knows who to put on his lists and how Ben is involved. :biggrin:

I think lostmio is right. The lists are something Ben made-up in order to keep the people he wants. He doesn't have to explain anything......