So, Ben taped over the Red Sox game . . . is this the same tape he showed Jack to prove they won the series? It seems to me he showed Jack the tape within the past 90 days or so . . . this is new footage of Widmore?

Interesting comment, you are right, it has to be newer than the sox game. and to tape over the win! how awful. unless 'red sox' is some sort of code word?

So, Ben taped over the Red Sox game . . . is this the same tape he showed Jack to prove they won the series? It seems to me he showed Jack the tape within the past 90 days or so . . . this is new footage of Widmore?

Within 90 days? They have been on the island for about 97 days. He saw the tape about about 4 weekds ago. So it is probbaly preatty recent. Also we dont know if this is the same red soxs game, or if red sox could be a code for something.

What do you guys mean by a code word? What are you suggesting exactly? Interesting . . .

I'm assuming that the only reason they had a Red Sox tape was to show Jack that the sox really did win the series. What episode was that, and what was the context? I just remember Jack crying, and it being really dramatic. Anyway, Ben doesn't strike me as a Sox fan, and I'm assuming they showed us this tape and were deliberate in letting us know that it had been 'taped over'.

I think Michael shot that video

Pretty funny he didn't (well, the photographer didn't) have a new tape & had to tape over an old one. If they are able to go back & forth (and bring magnetic media with them!) shouldn't they have mp4 capabilities already?

I think Michael shot that video

Why exactly?

My assumption was that Ben ordered a tape of the game in order to show Jack that The Others had contact with the outside world. I figured he probably got it through Richard or Mikhail.

I'm more interested in just how recent this footage is of Widmore. Is it new, or did Ben just run out of blank VHS tapes?

Red Sox episode was The Glass Ballerina. It's been several weeks island time since then. More than a show season since then. As a Red Sox fan, I was offended. :biggrin: I think it was just an instance of them showing from a previous episode. They like to remind us of stuff, point out connections, etc. I actually don't think it meant more than that this time.

Was that an american car?

My impression is that this was shot after Ben showed the tape to Jack but before the Flame was blown up by Locke. Has to be that way to make sense.

Richard or someone had to send a feed to the Flame like he did with Juliet's sister.

I caught Widmore looking up at whomever was filming the scene right before it went blank. It was like "Did you get all that?". It seemed staged to me.

D/

are we sure it is a VHS cause if it is wouldn't it stop working cause it would get magnetised on the island, but maybe the mag. is gone because the swan imploded

I think Michael shot that video

But, he's on the boat.......

-----

It certainly was a magnetic tape, but it seemed bigger to me than a VHS. Maybe I'm remembering it wrong.

I caught Widmore looking up at whomever was filming the scene right before it went blank. It was like "Did you get all that?". It seemed staged to me.

D/

I think the idea there was that the person shooting panicked when he/she realized that he/she was "busted" -- your notion is valid, but less likely.

As far as why the tape was labelled "Red Sox" -- it's pretty much cliche in TV land, if not in reality, to label a top-secret video with an innocuous-appearing label. (Placing such a super-secret tape in a locked safe would kinda seem to void the benefits of using the fake label, though!!!)

- mnw

I haven't had a chance to re-watch, so I'm not 100% on this... but it looked like the tape was labelled "Red Socks" rather than "Red Sox". Clearly meant to invoke the Red Sox game tape that Ben showed Jack... but the misspelling makes me wonder if it's in fact *not* the same tape, and "Red Socks" refers to something else... some sort of code, perhaps, or deeper meaning/double entendre.... or, whoever labelled it knows nothing about baseball.:)

Red Sox episode was The Glass Ballerina. It's been several weeks island time since then. More than a show season since then. As a Red Sox fan, I was offended. :biggrin: I think it was just an instance of them showing from a previous episode. They like to remind us of stuff, point out connections, etc. I actually don't think it meant more than that this time.
According to Lostpedia, GB took place on days 68-69, and we know this episode is around day 94 -95, so it's been a little less than 4 weeks.

Why exactly?

My assumption was that Ben ordered a tape of the game in order to show Jack that The Others had contact with the outside world. I figured he probably got it through Richard or Mikhail.

I'm more interested in just how recent this footage is of Widmore. Is it new, or did Ben just run out of blank VHS tapes?

And who is Ben's man in the blindfold?

I haven't had a chance to re-watch, so I'm not 100% on this... but it looked like the tape was labelled "Red Socks" rather than "Red Sox". Clearly meant to invoke the Red Sox game tape that Ben showed Jack... but the misspelling makes me wonder if it's in fact *not* the same tape, and "Red Socks" refers to something else... some sort of code, perhaps, or deeper meaning/double entendre.... or, whoever labelled it knows nothing about baseball.:)

I almost certain it was "Red Sox." and I would have noticed the error otherwise. Besides I live in Red Sox country so I see it all the time.

This isn't really what I think happened, but I figured I'd mention it to those who mentioned the "code word"..

We all remember the Queen (of Hearts? Diamonds? Apparently *I* don't remember it too well lol) when Daniel was trying to test his memory with the cards. There was talk back then about how it was the same card used in the Manchurian Candidate to wake up the sleeper agents. Shortly following Jack's viewing of the Red Sox tape, he helped The Others (or at least sided with Juliet..we still don't truly know what to make of her in terms of whether or not she's really good). Following Locke's viewing of the tape, he also seemed to help Ben out. Possible connection?

This isn't really what I think happened, but I figured I'd mention it to those who mentioned the "code word"..

We all remember the Queen (of Hearts? Diamonds? Apparently *I* don't remember it too well lol) when Daniel was trying to test his memory with the cards. There was talk back then about how it was the same card used in the Manchurian Candidate to wake up the sleeper agents. Shortly following Jack's viewing of the Red Sox tape, he helped The Others (or at least sided with Juliet..we still don't truly know what to make of her in terms of whether or not she's really good). Following Locke's viewing of the tape, he also seemed to help Ben out. Possible connection?

Queen of Diamonds. Interesting speculation.

Well it was either that tape or the Giants incredible victory over the Pats in Superbowl XVII.

He may just keep all his important clips of info from the real world on the same tape. He definately wouldn't mark this tape with a label that says "Charles Widmore is looking for the island" if that is the secret he is holding for leverage. It was obviously a very guarded secret to get its own dedicated behind-the-picture wall safe.

Guys this IS NOT a code.

There is no logic to that speculation since a code is usually a symbol or word that has meaning beyond the obvious. We know a Red Sox tape existed at some point and was shown to Jack. There is no need for it to be a "code."

Freud even said, "Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar."

He may just keep all his important clips of info from the real world on the same tape. He definately wouldn't mark this tape with a label that says "Charles Widmore is looking for the island" if that is the secret he is holding for leverage. It was obviously a very guarded secret to get its own dedicated behind-the-picture wall safe.

Yes, it's the fact that it was in the wall safe that makes its label odd. It doesn't matter WHAT that tape was labeled. If someone were to find a hidden safe, somehow get it open, and see something labeled "Red Sox" it's not like they'd be "oh well okay, I guess he's just a really big fan and that's why he kept it so secretly locked up!". They would watch it regardless of the label. So though it seems stupid to label it as something so obvious as "Charles Widmore" or whatever..that tape, if found, is being watched since it's obviously important if it's in the safe. Doesn't matter if it's labeled "Teletubbies Season 1."

All the more reason that the label is probably important for SOME reason. Whether it's something as intricate as a code word or simply a metaphorical nod to something (I personally vote that it's the 2nd option)..

The Red Sox label was shown so the writers could let us date the tape post-day 69. I think that's all it means, and it must have been recorded off a reception on the Flame Station equipment prior to it being destroyed on day 77.

So, Ben taped over the Red Sox game . . . is this the same tape he showed Jack to prove they won the series? It seems to me he showed Jack the tape within the past 90 days or so . . . this is new footage of Widmore?
ortiz is a sox fan and is mad ben would tape over it, but that was the clue, <whatever that was> happened after the series...

ortiz is a sox fan and is mad ben would tape over it, but that was the clue, <whatever that was> happened after the series...

Very well put.

(Especially for someone who talks like the Hulk...)

- mnw

Remember when Ben told Jack about the Red Sox winning the world series? Perhaps the original tape was made to show Jack in case Ben needed to prove it. When he didn't need to prove it, he made another tape he might need in th efuture to prove something to Locke. He does have a plan afterall. If not, why would the tape be marked "Red Sox". The only other reference we have to that on the show is Ben and Jack's convo when thet had Jack in captiity.

I don't recall, but when he showed Jack the redsox news or whatever way back was it supposed to be live? Was the fact that it was on a tape an indicator of something?

Or it could have just been nothing..

He didn't show Jack the tape. He told him the Red Sox had won the WS and Jack was in disbelief. It was aprt of Ben Showing Jack that he had outside communication. My point is, does Ben have different scenarios ( i:e tapes or whatever) planned to remedy whatever situation he may be in. He does always have a plan!

He didn't show Jack the tape. He told him the Red Sox had won the WS and Jack was in disbelief. It was aprt of Ben Showing Jack that he had outside communication. My point is, does Ben have different scenarios ( i:e tapes or whatever) planned to remedy whatever situation he may be in. He does always have a plan!

Umm, he did show Jack the tape. He first told Jack that they came back and won the World Series, Jack didn't believe him, he popped in the tape.

My apologies. I brained that. My point is still the same. He seems to have a remedy or "proof" pre determind...as if he knows what is going to happenn...a master plan

I agree about the pre-determined. But I think the Red Sox was just a good joke, and almost a blasphemy for those whose dreams came true when they won. Another manifestation of Ben's "badness" to sports fans, i bet!

interesting about taping over the red socks. does that mean that the beating incident occurred AFTER ben showed the tape to Jack? or did ben have a different tape, and then decided to tape over the red socks win just so he could have a duplicate?

The Red Sox label was shown so the writers could let us date the tape post-day 69. I think that's all it means, and it must have been recorded off a reception on the Flame Station equipment prior to it being destroyed on day 77.

Okay - this is what I was looking for. I believe the tape was so clearly labeled in order to provide context with our timeline.

This is newer footage of Widmore. Very new perhaps.

I almost certain it was "Red Sox." and I would have noticed the error otherwise. Besides I live in Red Sox country so I see it all the time.

Just re-watched... It was indeed "Red Sox" - I stand corrected.:)
100%
This isn't really what I think happened, but I figured I'd mention it to those who mentioned the "code word"..

We all remember the Queen (of Hearts? Diamonds? Apparently *I* don't remember it too well lol) when Daniel was trying to test his memory with the cards. There was talk back then about how it was the same card used in the Manchurian Candidate to wake up the sleeper agents. Shortly following Jack's viewing of the Red Sox tape, he helped The Others (or at least sided with Juliet..we still don't truly know what to make of her in terms of whether or not she's really good). Following Locke's viewing of the tape, he also seemed to help Ben out. Possible connection?

Interesting catch.
100%
He may just keep all his important clips of info from the real world on the same tape. He definately wouldn't mark this tape with a label that says "Charles Widmore is looking for the island" if that is the secret he is holding for leverage. It was obviously a very guarded secret to get its own dedicated behind-the-picture wall safe.

He could have labelled the tape "Greatest Hits"
100%
The Red Sox label was shown so the writers could let us date the tape post-day 69. I think that's all it means, and it must have been recorded off a reception on the Flame Station equipment prior to it being destroyed on day 77.

I think you're exactly right.

Freud even said, "Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar."Ahh, but Freud was no fun! And he didn't rack up thousands of posts on a message board wondering about Cerberus noises, glass eyeballs and Jacob's list!

Alot of this has already been discussed, but whatever...

Ben showed Locke the Red Sox tape. This takes a lot of guessing, but I think it fill is in some island spaces. Let’s assume this is the same tape that Ben showed Jack. So Ben lied to everyone about off island communications. The Hatch imploding has made the island recognizable to the real world, however faintly. That’s why he had the two ladies in the Looking Glass hatch block transmissions. He wanted to make it as difficult as possible to get to and from the island. Only this tape was recorded over after he had shown it to Jack. Which was after they all “lost” communications, (I get that they could
have just looked at a different piece of the tape, but that ruins this mild theory). Basically what I’m saying is Ben can still easily go to and from the island and so can his operatives. Maybe not a huge reveal in the grand scheme of things, and it’s
something most of us had assumed anyway, but it’s definitely interesting to note as some sort of proof. Possibly.

Any thoughts?

Why in the world does Locke still trust Ben???

Doesn't it seem a little odd to you that the only thing in Ben's safe was a VCR tape and Widmore's file. Alittle too convenient if you ask me.

With all of the secrets Ben has I would think that his safe would be filled with a bunch of junk for him to pull out and impress people with.

I was more surprised that Locke hadn't checked every knook and cranny of Ben's house already.

When is the World Series over? October. He showed Jack the tape of it around Thanksgiving. No one said the World Series happened yesterday when he showed him the tape. They lost communication sometime after the Series. Ben still has a tape of it.

Good point!

The video was also suspicious to me too...who took it and when? Is it real or was it doctored.

Is the reason Ben said Widmore wanted to find the island the real one? Of course not, Ben is a LIAR!!!

I thought for sure the safe would have been behind the painting of the lady holding the hamster. Oh well, I guess the hamster lady mystery lives another day. :(

I suspect the safe has a number of false walls and Ben can pull out whatever serves him. Besides who would erase the Sox series to get a brief clip of someone getting roughed up? Why would Ben or anyone need to keep that clip?

You're right, the clip prooves nothing about Widmore wanting to find the island or why he wants to find the island. We don't even know who the victim was.

All the details were in Ben's commentary, if you watch the video with no sound it means nothing!!

How long ago was jack shown the redsox game in the hydra? Just trying to estabilish a timeline.

I suspect the safe has a number of false walls and Ben can pull out whatever serves him. Besides who would erase the Sox series to get a brief clip of someone getting roughed up? Why would Ben or anyone need to keep that clip?

I think the real question needs to be....where did the tape come from? Remember, contact with the outside world ceased "after the sky turned purple". Where did it come from? This is evidence that off island contact hasn't been ceased. The tape could have hypothetically come to the island before the end of the second season. The same CANNOT be said of a video that was TAPED OVER the red sox footage. This combined with the fact that Ben has off island contacts he is maintaining (like the person on the boat) is a significant fact. Where it will go is where I am at a loss.

How long ago was jack shown the redsox game in the hydra? Just trying to estabilish a timeline.

I started a different thread earlier about the Red Sox Tape earlier. It's a tough question to answer but I think it would hold some significance.

When is the World Series over? October. He showed Jack the tape of it around Thanksgiving. No one said the World Series happened yesterday when he showed him the tape. They lost communication sometime after the Series. Ben still has a tape of it.

I understand that. My point was, if we assume it was the same tape, and the whole thing had been taped over, than it had only been a few weeks since Ben originally showed the tape to Jack. It wouldn't matter what the tape had on it originally just that it had footage of Charles Widmore on it just a short time later.

Now of course we can get into video splicing and tape to tape recorder and all sorts of junk. I just thought this could be a siginificant hint that Ben and/or his operatives had been off the island rather recently and were still able to do so.

Maybe Ben was the one traveling to get the footage?

I suspect the safe has a number of false walls and Ben can pull out whatever serves him. Besides who would erase the Sox series to get a brief clip of someone getting roughed up? Why would Ben or anyone need to keep that clip?

This might be a a production oops or it it may be a clue. When you tape over something and then stop recording at playback it should go almost seamlessly to what was previously taped. Ben's tape went to snow, no recording. Any thoughts?

I think the tape is a hoax to mess with Locke. It's just a gut feeling, but I think Widmore and Ben are working together. If Ben had a man in an elevated position with a clear shot of Widmore, he's just shoot him. He wouldn't video tape him.

this could be a siginificant hint that Ben and/or his operatives had been off the island rather recently and were still able to do so.

That was my thought as well. If they can fly a chopper to and from the island, the others can come and go too.

Besides, it was BEN jamming the communication anyway. Charlie stopped it. It was never the sky turning purple that messed up communications.

Maybe Ben and the "Others" have another way to come to and from the Island besides the Submarine...

I think Ben was telling the truth...to a certain extent. Of course I think he knows WHY Widmore is after the Island, but yeah.

Ben might be creepy and might have done some things I don't exactly consider to be "moral", but I don't think he's the bad guy here. Widmore is ruthless.

There were leaked photos of TOM with Michael in NYC...so possibly this lends credence to my idea that they can come to and from the Island without the submarine. We'll see. :)

I think the tape is a hoax to mess with Locke. It's just a gut feeling, but I think Widmore and Ben are working together. If Ben had a man in an elevated position with a clear shot of Widmore, he's just shoot him. He wouldn't video tape him.

Very good point. We have ZERO reason to believe anything Ben has EVER said.



Besides, it was BEN jamming the communication anyway. Charlie stopped it. It was never the sky turning purple that messed up communications.

Exactly!

Yeah, me and my wife were watching last night and my wife swears that Bed munipulated that tape when he put his hands on the VCR. If you watch it again, it's all fuzzy and then Ben leans forward and puts his hands on the Player. Now, I didn't think anything about it and don't know that I believe something like that or not, but my wife is convinced that Ben is jerking Locke's chain and that tape is fake! neo

I don't think they had direct communication with the Island so much as they were able to leave the Island and obtain things like the Red Sox vid. But yeah, he must have obtained the Widmore footage sometime within a pretty small window of time.

My impression is that this was shot after Ben showed the tape to Jack but before the Flame was blown up by Locke. Has to be that way to make sense.

Richard or someone had to send a feed to the Flame like he did with Juliet's sister.


I was thinking that there was a direct feed to the flame from Widmore's location and that Ben taped it in the Flame using the RedSox tape that he showed Jack.

I thought it was straight forward but I have been wrong before.

Yes, it's the fact that it was in the wall safe that makes its label odd. It doesn't matter WHAT that tape was labeled. If someone were to find a hidden safe, somehow get it open, and see something labeled "Red Sox" it's not like they'd be "oh well okay, I guess he's just a really big fan and that's why he kept it so secretly locked up!". They would watch it regardless of the label. So though it seems stupid to label it as something so obvious as "Charles Widmore" or whatever..that tape, if found, is being watched since it's obviously important if it's in the safe. Doesn't matter if it's labeled "Teletubbies Season 1."

All the more reason that the label is probably important for SOME reason. Whether it's something as intricate as a code word or simply a metaphorical nod to something (I personally vote that it's the 2nd option)..

It doesn't make the label odd. It just means Ben taped over the Red Sox Game!
It was in a Hidden Safe. That's where you put things you don't want anyone else to see. If he had just left it out next to the VCR AnyOne could have watched it. Especially if they are a Red Sox Fan too AND/OR Especially since the next best thing On The Island, is the Book of the Month Club! Blah. Hell, I'd watch it and I don't even like BaseBall!
Don't get too far down the rabbit hole, you can't get back out again, friend.

if Ben just taped over the sox game then the rest of the sox game should have been seen on the tape following the widmore scene but instead it was nothing

if Ben just taped over the sox game then the rest of the sox game should have been seen on the tape following the widmore scene but instead it was nothing
Did we really see enough of the end of that tape to determine that there was no game after the footage or are you just assuming? It could have gone static for several minutes after that while the person spotted by Widmore tried to make their getaway.

Maybe it was Rachel Blake?

I think the point of mentioning that he taped over the Red Sox tape, was that it shows that he was off the island just after his operation..
Jack saw the tape just before he operated on Ben.

I think the point of mentioning that he taped over the Red Sox tape, was that it shows that he was off the island just after his operation..
Jack saw the tape just before he operated on Ben.

Yeah, and if I recall, it was taped off television, not the live event.

But, he's on the boat.......

You assume.

-----

You assume.

I don't think Michael's on the boat. Too obvious.

http://bp2.blogger.com/_RrObyQ3XzcY/...0-h/Image9.jpg

Considering there's the Box Maker clue in the Tempest it made me think of this.

There are lots of "boxes" in the video Ben showed Locke & it looks like factory of some kind.

So where was this filmed & who filmed it?

Maybe the man on the boat it Locke's boss from the box company & he filmed the video for Ben?
"You better sit down"

I think it's not unreasonable to assume that Ben would have secret tunnels, or other ways to communicate in his house. Particularily in the event of his own incarceration in his own basement. So he could have told one of his people to put the tape and file in the safe. And they might have needed to make the Widmore tape quickly for the purpose of showing Locke, which is why they used the Red Sox tape.
Maybe.

I don't think Michael's on the boat. Too obvious.
http://bp2.blogger.com/_RrObyQ3XzcY/...0-h/Image9.jpg

Considering there's the Box Maker clue in the Tempest it made me think of this.

There are lots of "boxes" in the video Ben showed Locke & it looks like factory of some kind.

So where was this filmed & who filmed it?

Maybe the man on the boat it Locke's boss from the box company & he filmed the video for Ben?
"You better sit down"
Imagine? Ben would more than sit down.. his heart would stop beating and he'd disintegrate! lol

(I love the way people think).

Imagine? Ben would more than sit down.. his heart would stop beating and he'd disintegrate! lol

(I love the way people think).

I was more interested in who filmed it & where it was filmed then the fact it was taped over a Red Sox game which is probably a clue of some kind too.

And considering Randy is handy with a camera.......

http://www.lostpedia.com/wiki/Image:RandyFFfilm.jpg

But any thoughts besides the "out there" Box Company is the location of the film, Ben's Boss is the one who filmed the tape & is the man on the boat theory? Hey I know it's out there :eek2:
"You better sit down"

The tape should have been labeled "Orientation."

Imagine that Ben has the ability to move his consciousness like Desmond...at will

all he has to do is go back to a time before he was captured and put the widmore tape in the safe...so that it is there when Locke opens it in the future.

Trying to figure out a reason how Ben always seems to win

If he was captured by someone else maybe he could have put in a different tape in the safe, in an attempt to manipulate the situation

Moatie

I think the tape is a hoax to mess with Locke. It's just a gut feeling, but I think Widmore and Ben are working together. If Ben had a man in an elevated position with a clear shot of Widmore, he's just shoot him. He wouldn't video tape him.


I've been saying that Widmore has been working with Ben for a long time (lots of info at the link in my sig). I noted that at the very end of the clip, Widmore turns to the camera before it suddenly goes to snow. I suspect that Widmore was turning to speak to a camera he knew was there, and that the original clip had audio. What was done here was a quick edit job on a clip that had other purposes, and the portion edited and copied over the bulk-erased Red Sox tape was just the portion that could be used for the very story Ben told to Locke. But notice that there's nothing in the tape that actually connects it to the freighter. When Ben was in his cell, Locke actually refused to take Ben at hs word, so Ben showed him an irrelevant video clip, and then Locke took him at his word. It was classic Ben and classic Locke...

An important clue is that Widmore is shown actually doing his own bully work; this would be almost ridiculous in a clandestine tape, but would make perfect sense if it was set up as a means of sending a warning. In that case, Widmore beats up someone known to the recipient of the video, then turns to the camera and issues a warning of some kind. A reasonable (admittedly not the only) context for this would be that Widmore owns Ben, is upset at something Ben has not done properly, he beats up Ben's man, and then turns to the camera to warn Ben to stay in line/fix his mess up. This would have been edited to show locke only the portion that could be used to manipulate Locke.

Of course, once Locke is distracted, he's putty in Ben's hands and never asks any questions...

i think it's a pretty recent tape! Ben has informers on the outside world...so maybe all the communications are not down...
the "red sox" is supposed to remind us Jack/christian... maybe the scenarists want us to make a link between Jack/Christian and Widmore?

I've been saying that Widmore has been working with Ben for a long time (lots of info at the link in my sig). I noted that at the very end of the clip, Widmore turns to the camera before it suddenly goes to snow. I suspect that Widmore was turning to speak to a camera he knew was there, and that the original clip had audio. What was done here was a quick edit job on a clip that had other purposes, and the portion edited and copied over the bulk-erased Red Sox tape was just the portion that could be used for the very story Ben told to Locke. But notice that there's nothing in the tape that actually connects it to the freighter. When Ben was in his cell, Locke actually refused to take Ben at hs word, so Ben showed him an irrelevant video clip, and then Locke took him at his word. It was classic Ben and classic Locke...

An important clue is that Widmore is shown actually doing his own bully work; this would be almost ridiculous in a clandestine tape, but would make perfect sense if it was set up as a means of sending a warning. In that case, Widmore beats up someone known to the recipient of the video, then turns to the camera and issues a warning of some kind. A reasonable (admittedly not the only) context for this would be that Widmore owns Ben, is upset at something Ben has not done properly, he beats up Ben's man, and then turns to the camera to warn Ben to stay in line/fix his mess up. This would have been edited to show locke only the portion that could be used to manipulate Locke.

Of course, once Locke is distracted, he's putty in Ben's hands and never asks any questions...

Hey, I haven't checked out your Three Kings theory, but will. You give good food for thought here though . . . Widmore doing his dirty work IS suspicious, and his awareness of the camera is sketchy as well. You're right too - Locke hasn't been the most critical thinker when working with Ben . . .

It doesn't make the label odd. It just means Ben taped over the Red Sox Game!
It was in a Hidden Safe. That's where you put things you don't want anyone else to see. If he had just left it out next to the VCR AnyOne could have watched it. Especially if they are a Red Sox Fan too AND/OR Especially since the next best thing On The Island, is the Book of the Month Club! Blah. Hell, I'd watch it and I don't even like BaseBall!
Don't get too far down the rabbit hole, you can't get back out again, friend.

I wonder if I'm the only person who skips over posts written in another font. I realize you're just trying to be heard, by being distinctive, but my brain just doesn't want to adjust to your font. Anyways....

one thing i am 'tripping' on is, didn't Juliet tape over the video herself!?

My question is, why VHS? Even in 2004 the use of dvds was pretty popular... Maybe he had to use the video of the red sox because that was the only vhs tape there was? I just thought there was something odd about using that.. Locke had no idea about Jack seeing the red sox game did he? idk my brain hurts.

It's another metaphor for how Time Cycles can "tape over" previous events.

My question is, why VHS? Even in 2004 the use of dvds was pretty popular... Maybe he had to use the video of the red sox because that was the only vhs tape there was? I just thought there was something odd about using that.. Locke had no idea about Jack seeing the red sox game did he? idk my brain hurts.

My thought there is that The Flame Station was created in the 1970's . . . and while this would make a case for the tape being Beta, perhaps this is the technology they are subject to. An upgrade wasn't really a priority?

I've been saying that Widmore has been working with Ben for a long time (lots of info at the link in my sig). I noted that at the very end of the clip, Widmore turns to the camera before it suddenly goes to snow. I suspect that Widmore was turning to speak to a camera he knew was there, and that the original clip had audio. What was done here was a quick edit job on a clip that had other purposes, and the portion edited and copied over the bulk-erased Red Sox tape was just the portion that could be used for the very story Ben told to Locke. But notice that there's nothing in the tape that actually connects it to the freighter. When Ben was in his cell, Locke actually refused to take Ben at hs word, so Ben showed him an irrelevant video clip, and then Locke took him at his word. It was classic Ben and classic Locke...

An important clue is that Widmore is shown actually doing his own bully work; this would be almost ridiculous in a clandestine tape, but would make perfect sense if it was set up as a means of sending a warning. In that case, Widmore beats up someone known to the recipient of the video, then turns to the camera and issues a warning of some kind. A reasonable (admittedly not the only) context for this would be that Widmore owns Ben, is upset at something Ben has not done properly, he beats up Ben's man, and then turns to the camera to warn Ben to stay in line/fix his mess up. This would have been edited to show locke only the portion that could be used to manipulate Locke.

Of course, once Locke is distracted, he's putty in Ben's hands and never asks any questions...

Good points here. My question is, if it was specifically edited to elicit a certain reaction from Locke, who did it, and under what direction? Ben hasn't been back to the barracks for some time, and he is there now as a prisoner. He would have had to have predicted this set of circumstances coming about shortly after initially receiving the tape in order to have it edited and placed in the safe. Ben is good, but I have my doubts he's that good.

An upgrade wasn't really a priority?

Um... HELL, NO, there hasn't been any "upgrade"!!! The VCR that Ben used was a freakin' TOP-LOADER!!! Have YOU seen one of those relics since 1980? I didn't think so!!!

- mnw
100%
How long ago was jack shown the redsox game in the hydra? Just trying to estabilish a timeline.

According to Lostpedia, the game on tape was shown on island day 69 (11/29/04), and the taped-over Widmore scene was shown on day 96 or 97 (12/26-27/04).

- mnw

Good points here. My question is, if it was specifically edited to elicit a certain reaction from Locke, who did it, and under what direction? Ben hasn't been back to the barracks for some time, and he is there now as a prisoner. He would have had to have predicted this set of circumstances coming about shortly after initially receiving the tape in order to have it edited and placed in the safe. Ben is good, but I have my doubts he's that good.

I'm not sure Ben had to be all that good to figure this one out ahead of time. Remember that he's in the spot he's in because he chose to walk, unarmed and without support, into a group of people he knew hated him and were likely not to believe him. The chances of his becoming a prisoner were high. If he even saw the possibility of his having to take such an extreme measure as this, I can see him doing a number of things ahead of time that might aid him should he end up returning to the barracks as a prisoner. (If he were taken prisoner, it's reasonable that his captors might want to check the place out.) These would include everything from planting a few saw blades in various places to aid in cutting a rope binding his wrists, to hiding a few weapons, to creating some "evidence" that could be used in establishing his credibility. He wouldn't know which item if any might be useful, but each could be done quickly and would be worth the minimal effort. I would suggest that the "Widmore video" shows lots of evidence of having been produced in a hurry -- consider his not removing the old tape label and not editing the video endpoint at the right place. But after doing such a quick edit job, all he'd need to do is drop it in the safe with a real file he's collecting on Widmore, and that job is done.

And if the real person behind the freighter is (who I suspect) Paik, Ben would never reveal this, as even Locke would then figure out that Sun is then in danger, and he would not give Ben his freedom. As it is, Ben seems to have tried to make one grab for Sun already (the failed attempt to abduct the pregnant women in TTLG) and he'd want another chance to do this, unobstructed.

This might be a a production oops or it it may be a clue. When you tape over something and then stop recording at playback it should go almost seamlessly to what was previously taped. Ben's tape went to snow, no recording. Any thoughts?

I think you must be a ***Mod edited*** who never had to deal with a crappy old consumer-grade VHS deck. On any normal VCR you get a (nearly) seamless switchover at the BEGINNING of an overdub, but on the END you get a big mess of ugly snow for one-two seconds (exactly as shown on the episode), then a glitchy, screechy fast-forwarding blur of what you taped over for another 2-3 seconds as the head(s) attempt to realign, and THEN everything straightens out and your Sox game (or whatever) returns to normal play. (This is precisely why you CAN'T just edit your own home movies nicely using a VCR.)

It would've been nice if they'd left the shot for one more second to show the game footage realigning on the deck, but as things are they showed exactly what you'd see in reality.

--- mnw

The VCR that Ben used was a freakin' TOP-LOADER!!! Have YOU seen one of those relics since 1980? I didn't think so!!!


I agree all the technology here is 80s at the latest. I think this may even predate VHS or Beta, might be the Sony UMatic format. This format was used in TV studios a while back, so it would fit that the communications station would have these.

I agree all the technology here is 80s at the latest. I think this may even predate VHS or Beta, might be the Sony UMatic format. This format was used in TV studios a while back, so it would fit that the communications station would have these.

You talkin' about a 3/4" professional-grade VTR deck? Those were all top-loaders as well, but the tape itself looks pretty clearly to be a normal VHS tape. Besides which, tapes for a 3/4" deck were only made in 20 and 60 minute lengths, so you couldn't tape a whole ball-game using one.

- mnw

This isn't really what I think happened, but I figured I'd mention it to those who mentioned the "code word"..

We all remember the Queen (of Hearts? Diamonds? Apparently *I* don't remember it too well lol) when Daniel was trying to test his memory with the cards. There was talk back then about how it was the same card used in the Manchurian Candidate to wake up the sleeper agents. Shortly following Jack's viewing of the Red Sox tape, he helped The Others (or at least sided with Juliet..we still don't truly know what to make of her in terms of whether or not she's really good). Following Locke's viewing of the tape, he also seemed to help Ben out. Possible connection?

Good call - I had wondered about whether it could be a code, but totally missed the connection.

I almost certain it was "Red Sox." and I would have noticed the error otherwise. Besides I live in Red Sox country so I see it all the time.


Definetly Spelt right. i woudl have noticed being a HUGE sox fan... and i just rewatched it the X is just sidewyas... GO SOX

I wonder if I'm the only person who skips over posts written in another font. I realize you're just trying to be heard, by being distinctive, but my brain just doesn't want to adjust to your font. Anyways....
Then here... this is just for you JACK...
It doesn't make the label odd. It just means Ben taped over the Red Sox Game!
It was in a Hidden Safe. That's where you put things you don't want anyone else to see. If he had just left it out next to the VCR AnyOne could have watched it. Especially if they are a Red Sox Fan too AND/OR Especially since the next best thing On The Island, is the Book of the Month Club! Blah. Hell, I'd watch it and I don't even like BaseBall!
Don't get too far down the rabbit hole, you can't get back out again, friend.

And there is nothing saying Ben had to tape the whole game. He just needed enough game to prove he had connections off the island.

If I record over an already recorded show on my vcr, it does just what we saw-- snow(followed by a ff kind of freaky few seconds, then whatever was on the tape already). I
agree with the poster who pointed this out.

ABOUT BEN-- We have been told more than once that "Ben is exactly where he
wants to be". So, I have a feeling that he hasn't been just sitting in that basement
all this time. Was he even tied up? I don't think so, since Locke told him to "put your
laundry and dirty dishes by the door."

perhaps Ben knows of hidden routes through the house, and could come and go as he
pleased while remaining Locke's prisoner. something to think about.
He might have just made that tape while Locke was out hunting rabbit or something.
lol
OR maybe the tape was left in the hatch after Jack saw it. It was then just the
most convenient tape someone grabbed in order to make the Widmore tape. No
hidden code.

The writers most likely just wanted to give us a little Easter Egg. it IS that
time of year.

From all the various past eras of technology we've seen, still used presently on the island, I would think there would be a surplus of BOXES and BOXES of fresh and available, blank DHARMA VHS tapes about the various stations on the island. (Remember that station they found with Nikki and Paulo with all the TV monitors?) I presumed that Mikael taped the game for Ben from the video setup they showed Juliet the footage of her sister on. That Ben would have had to re-use THE VERY Red Sox tape he had available for Jack seems suspect to me. What if Ben, for some reason, had to show that Reds game to Jack again? There must be something more to this than Ben re-taping over that very tape!

I caught Widmore looking up at whomever was filming the scene right before it went blank. It was like "Did you get all that?". It seemed staged to me.

D/


staged? it was more of a look like, "what the hell is that up in the cat walk? and why are they filming?"

tell me that it didn't seem like the filmer just cut the feed and ran as soon as widmore looked up in that direction...

I agree all the technology here is 80s at the latest. I think this may even predate VHS or Beta, might be the Sony UMatic format. This format was used in TV studios a while back, so it would fit that the communications station would have these.

We still have our old Panasonic (1984) and it still works. It's a top loader and it's heavy, i.e. metal parts inside. Couple more years and it's an antique. The remote was easy to use, too. Good size buttons all in the right logical places.

We still have our old Panasonic (1984) and it still works. It's a top loader and it's heavy, i.e. metal parts inside. Couple more years and it's an antique. The remote was easy to use, too. Good size buttons all in the right logical places.

I still have my old Panasonic too. Great machine.

Anyway, so I didn't see it mentioned here but any thoughts onwho Filmed the Red Sox tape?
Randy seems to be quite handy with a camera & seems to show up in the strangest places.
http://www.lostpedia.com/wiki/Image:RandyFFfilm.jpg