This was the scariest voice I have heard on this show. If Jacob, The Monster, the Man On The Boat, Ethan Rom and Charlie's Vision of Aaron Needing To Be Baptized all showed up together on Halloween night, it still would not have been scarier than that moment.

Ben is a :censored: creep and needs to have the :badwords: kicked out of him!:chair:

I've been maintaining that Ben has been a villian all along. We have justified his mass murder, and other evil deeds along the way in different ways, but last night, how do you justify what he did to Juliet? It's EVIL pure and simple. Ben is one evil man.

Rousseau told Sayid. He will lie. For a long time, he will lie. And man, was she ever right. How can we believe a word he's ever said?

I'm wondering though if the others as a "society" followed him knowingly or if he is lying to them as he is seemingly lying to everyone else, just playing some kind of sicko game. Perhaps Richard was that good of a teacher, perhaps Ben learned all his manipulations from the others to begin with.

I think he's lying to Locke, and I think he's going to end up trying to convince Locke that Jack has to be killed, because I don't think Ben will try to do it himself.

I don't think Ben is trying to protect the island either, my feeing is he's trying to protect himself in some manner. No idea what or why, but it's just a feeling, that he wants Juliet and himself alone on the island.

Ultimately, Ben is just a sick little boy, and Juliet is the sad target of his twisted affections.

Jack though, he did something Goodwin never did, maybe no one ever did before.

He beat the living daylights out of Ben.

That might instill some fear in Ben of Jack, some hesitation.

Or, it might make Ben want to kill Jack that much more.

One of the best creepy Ben lines!

I've been maintaining that Ben has been a villian all along. We have justified his mass murder, and other evil deeds along the way in different ways, but last night, how do you justify what he did to Juliet? It's EVIL pure and simple. Ben is one evil man.

Rousseau told Sayid. He will lie. For a long time, he will lie. And man, was she ever right. How can we believe a word he's ever said?

I'm wondering though if the others as a "society" followed him knowingly or if he is lying to them as he is seemingly lying to everyone else, just playing some kind of sicko game. Perhaps Richard was that good of a teacher, perhaps Ben learned all his manipulations from the others to begin with.

I think he's lying to Locke, and I think he's going to end up trying to convince Locke that Jack has to be killed, because I don't think Ben will try to do it himself.

I don't think Ben is trying to protect the island either, my feeing is he's trying to protect himself in some manner. No idea what or why, but it's just a feeling, that he wants Juliet and himself alone on the island.

Ultimately, Ben is just a sick little boy, and Juliet is the sad target of his twisted affections.

Jack though, he did something Goodwin never did, maybe no one ever did before.

He beat the living daylights out of Ben.

That might instill some fear in Ben of Jack, some hesitation.

Or, it might make Ben want to kill Jack that much more.

Nice synopsis. Ben's a sicko alright.

Jack though, he did something Goodwin never did, maybe no one ever did before.

He beat the living daylights out of Ben.


Hey! Sayid went first!

yep and now sayid is working for Ben in the future!!! He's a sick mofo!

Ben seems to love getting the crap kicked out of him. The scariest thing about him is the joy he seems to get from being abused. Like most men of power he has this masochist side. One very twisted dude.

I hated this. I think it was very bad, soap-operish writing, and I feel violated for having watched it.

Hey! Sayid went first!

And Sawyer got in his licks!

leave Ben alone.

remember, Juliette looks like "her", possibly referring to Annie. So I"m assuming Ben lost Annie once, and needs to control the situation (Juliette), so he doesn't lose a proxy for Annie again. If anything it shows he has a heart, although its fucking with his sense of right and wrong.

remember, Juliette looks like "her", possibly referring to Annie.
This was my initial thought too , but then my sister mentioned that Juliet kind of resembled Ben's mother as well. Long blonde hair, skinny. That would be one for Freud to analyze now wouldn't it?!! I remember Annie as a little girl having brown hair, perhaps when she got older she used Dharma blonde #5 or something!! Or my sister is right.

I remember Annie as a little girl having brown hair, perhaps when she got older she used Dharma blonde #5 or something!!
:24: Very nice

Sometimes I wonder whether I should say "I can't believe what you guys are saying", or if I should say "This is very expected and predictable". Michael Emerson is one of THE best actors I have ever seen anywhere. And I work for the industry, so I'm not just saying it. Ben's character is one of THE best characters, not only on a TV show, but in contemporary art in general, because of his unbelievable complexity and the fact that we DON'T (no, we don't) know whether he is good, or evil, or whatever. And I'm a writer, not so much for the industry, but still, I'm not just saying this. Born and raised in Europe, going through an impeccable education system where I read a gaZillion books, there is still no doubt Ben beats almost everything I've ever seen, including the Cheshire Cat :cool: Still, I'm not saying all this because I like Ben ('s character), but I love Ben because he is like this. LOST is a brilliant show, but it would be just good without him, hardly more. It is very clear that Darlton and co WANT you to hate Ben, writing about how he retaliated on Juliet and, y'know, the last scene where our darling Jack says he's gonna protect her from that evil, evil man...Due to the sorry greed and need of the American, Hollywood, corporate bs industry, it is a safe bet to presume that Ben will die, maybe even in not so distant future...He did something bad and he's got to be killed, so all the mediocrities can be happy and focus back on Jack, Kate and Sawyer, and Hurley's remarks (duuuuudeee). Sad is the world we're living in today.

girlgoescrazy, I don't think Ben will die soon. We at least know he makes it as far as Sayid's flashforward. I agree that Ben is such an incredible character. And a big part of that for me is that every time I'm positive he's a bad guy he seems to have the best intentions. Then, when I start to jump on his side he seems so evil! I love it!

It was really creepy indeed...and help me someone as I have been so out of the Lost loop since last season...what was Annie's whole story? Like what happened to her? I have short term memory loss. :biggrin:

meglet, we're not sure. They were childhood friends and then we see that he, as an adult, still has the doll that she carved for him. That's about it. There are theories abound, though. :)

Sometimes I wonder whether I should say "I can't believe what you guys are saying", or if I should say "This is very expected and predictable". Michael Emerson is one of THE best actors I have ever seen anywhere. And I work for the industry, so I'm not just saying it. Ben's character is one of THE best characters, not only on a TV show, but in contemporary art in general, because of his unbelievable complexity and the fact that we DON'T (no, we don't) know whether he is good, or evil, or whatever. And I'm a writer, not so much for the industry, but still, I'm not just saying this. Born and raised in Europe, going through an impeccable education system where I read a gaZillion books, there is still no doubt Ben beats almost everything I've ever seen, including the Cheshire Cat :cool: Still, I'm not saying all this because I like Ben ('s character), but I love Ben because he is like this. LOST is a brilliant show, but it would be just good without him, hardly more. It is very clear that Darlton and co WANT you to hate Ben, writing about how he retaliated on Juliet and, y'know, the last scene where our darling Jack says he's gonna protect her from that evil, evil man...Due to the sorry greed and need of the American, Hollywood, corporate bs industry, it is a safe bet to presume that Ben will die, maybe even in not so distant future...He did something bad and he's got to be killed, so all the mediocrities can be happy and focus back on Jack, Kate and Sawyer, and Hurley's remarks (duuuuudeee). Sad is the world we're living in today.

I love your post!
But i think lost is better than that, they know that Ben is a great character (probably the best in the show) and they're not gonna kill him soon! I hope he will win! :biggrin: lol And i hate the scene between Juliet and Jack in the end... i don't know if we're supposed to be happy about that scene but i really wasn't...it was really too much...it's annoying when jack is about to save a damzel in distress....again! lol :rolleyes:

Okay last night when I watched the first thing I thought of when Harper says "I mean you look just like her" I immediately thought that Ben must have had a wife who died carrying a baby. That would make it very important to him to find out what was going on right? And now he's got a Dr that looks just like her? So maybe it was Annie, maybe he married her and she got pregnant and died like all the other women.

I don't think Ben will die ever in the series and if he does I don't think it will be until the last season. Girlgoescrazy I love Ben!! Just because people call him crazy or evil doesn't mean they don't like the character. It's because he's crazy that we love him!!
I think the writers have made him into the villain of the show, that's exactly what he is. I don't think they could find a better character. Most of all he has surprise on his side and that's always dangerous because you never know what he is going to do next. That's another reason why I love him.

creepy as in mentally disturbed. Especially when followed by the chipper "take as much time as you need!"

This was the scariest voice I have heard on this show. If Jacob, The Monster, the Man On The Boat, Ethan Rom and Charlie's Vision of Aaron Needing To Be Baptized all showed up together on Halloween night, it still would not have been scarier than that moment.


I wholeheartedly agree. Ben is a total Svengali (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svengali). If he gets any worse I'm gonna start having nightmares. :eek2:

Michael Emerson did an incredible job as stalker creepy Ben. He is so much like a wacked out, didn't know my mom, dad was a jerk, bipolar teenage boy. He didn't seem to exactly have someone to teach him the whole dating game. I swear TPTB found magic when they snagged him and Elizabeth Mitchell. You can ready so much in just their expressions, it's beautiful acting. Even if, Mr. Linus is a creepy slimy weasel etc etc.

Sometimes I wonder whether I should say "I can't believe what you guys are saying", or if I should say "This is very expected and predictable". Michael Emerson is one of THE best actors I have ever seen anywhere. And I work for the industry, so I'm not just saying it. Ben's character is one of THE best characters, not only on a TV show, but in contemporary art in general, because of his unbelievable complexity and the fact that we DON'T (no, we don't) know whether he is good, or evil, or whatever. And I'm a writer, not so much for the industry, but still, I'm not just saying this. Born and raised in Europe, going through an impeccable education system where I read a gaZillion books, there is still no doubt Ben beats almost everything I've ever seen, including the Cheshire Cat :cool: Still, I'm not saying all this because I like Ben ('s character), but I love Ben because he is like this. LOST is a brilliant show, but it would be just good without him, hardly more. It is very clear that Darlton and co WANT you to hate Ben, writing about how he retaliated on Juliet and, y'know, the last scene where our darling Jack says he's gonna protect her from that evil, evil man...Due to the sorry greed and need of the American, Hollywood, corporate bs industry, it is a safe bet to presume that Ben will die, maybe even in not so distant future...He did something bad and he's got to be killed, so all the mediocrities can be happy and focus back on Jack, Kate and Sawyer, and Hurley's remarks (duuuuudeee). Sad is the world we're living in today.
I think you underestimate Americans... and are quite insulting while blowing your own horn... but then, it's your opinion, I guess.
As well, there isn't a character on Lost that we cannot have ambivalent feelings about. Every one of them has annoying characteristics.. and appealing ones as well. I think that almost every character on Lost is brilliant. Look at Locke. He's a warrior, he can't kill out of revenge, he's easily conned, he's vulnerable, he's proud, he's weak, he's a survivor... and he's genetically very carefully matched to his parents.
Miles, is brilliant. Charlotte is as well.. sarcastic, a con-artist, good or bad? There isn't a character old or new, on Lost that isn't multi-faceted. That's what makes this a masterpiece.. and no, I don't think they need to kill Ben off to satify any sorry corporate greed. This story will go where it needs to go.
Lost is on an island by itself. (no pun intended).

I think you underestimate Americans... and are quite insulting while blowing your own horn... but then, it's your opinion, I guess.
As well, there isn't a character on Lost that we cannot have ambivalent feelings about. Every one of them has annoying characteristics.. and appealing ones as well. I think that almost every character on Lost is brilliant. Look at Locke. He's a warrior, he can't kill out of revenge, he's easily conned, he's vulnerable, he's proud, he's weak, he's a survivor... and he's genetically very carefully matched to his parents.
Miles, is brilliant. Charlotte is as well.. sarcastic, a con-artist, good or bad? There isn't a character old or new, on Lost that isn't multi-faceted. That's what makes this a masterpiece.. and no, I don't think they need to kill Ben off to satify any sorry corporate greed. This story will go where it needs to go.
Lost is on an island by itself. (no pun intended).

Oh, I'm sorry if you feel that way, you either misinterpreted what I said, or I wrote it the wrong way, both are probably true...I ABSOLUTELY DO NOT underestimate Americans (I live in Southern California, not to say LA, so there you go! :biggrin:), nor do I think Lost would be bad without him, it's just this corporate thing that really shows its dark sides most of the time...Like when CSM died in The X Files, for example...Or even Snape in Harry Potter, damn it...Even though they were not really "bad" (you know what I mean), they had to be killed off because the audience saw them as antagonists...Hopefully you're right and that doesn't happen to Ben...

As for the rest of you guys...ThanX for the compliments, and I love Ben, too!!!:wub:

The show will keep on rocking, I know that the pile of them is doing a great joB!!! :pile:

Ben is mad, plain and simple, but I can't help feeling that there's a method to it. He might be a jealous, crazy, murdering sociopath, but I wouldn't be surprised if he turned out to be a lesser evil in the end. We still don't know exactly what Abbadon has planned. What if he poses an even bigger threat in some way?

That wouldn't make Ben any less of a horrible person, but I think he's much more layered and complex than a lot of fans give him credit for. He's not just the show's evil nutjob, he's also crafty and he obviously knows something we don't.

I think the writers have made him into the villain of the show, that's exactly what he is. I don't think they could find a better character.

That's exaxctly what i don't like...he was weird enough...no need to make him say to juliet "you're mine" now we're supposed to think that he's completly crazy...and Michael emerson has already done this type of character plenty of time....i hoped the scenarists used him in a more subtle way...if they had made the same episode but with Ben saying "I love you" to Juliet instead of "You're mine" it would have been a lot better... i loved the fact that in lost there was no villain, no good, no bad...now they clearly show him as a big bad and completly crazy guy...i'm maybe the only one to feel that but despite the fact that the scene was brilliantly acted i don't like what that implies for Ben's character.
100%
Or even Snape in Harry Potter, damn it...Even though they were not really "bad" (you know what I mean), they had to be killed off because the audience saw them as antagonists...Hopefully you're right and that doesn't happen to Ben...

I hope it won't happen to Ben...i was so disapointed by Harry potter's end...:rolleyes:
I remember reading Damon's opinion about the end of the book before reading it ..;and he was saying that it would be great if she killed harry but that she won't be doing it... i hope in lost they will be doing it...or at leat a mixed end...
100%
Ben is mad, plain and simple, but I can't help feeling that there's a method to it. He might be a jealous, crazy, murdering sociopath, but I wouldn't be surprised if he turned out to be a lesser evil in the end. We still don't know exactly what Abbadon has planned. What if he poses an even bigger threat in some way?

That wouldn't make Ben any less of a horrible person, but I think he's much more layered and complex than a lot of fans give him credit for. He's not just the show's evil nutjob, he's also crafty and he obviously knows something we don't.

If only you could be right....but each time i hope they will portray him in a better way and each time it's not the case...:undecide:

creepy as in mentally disturbed. Especially when followed by the chipper "take as much time as you need!"

That had me saying "WHOOAAAAHHH" when viewing it. Whether or not Ben's overall intentions regarding the island are "good" or "bad" is mostly irrelevant at this point because in my mind, he has shown over and over that he has a complete and total disregard for people (besides himself) and everything he does is an egocentric attempt for whatever it is he wants. So my thought is that as far as the island goes -- he's a "good" guy in that he wants to keep the island secret and safe -- but - at any cost - including screwing with and ruining any one else's lives if they don't comply to whatever it is he wants from them. Further, those wants are completely showing how disturbed he is making him in my mind, so completely and totally insane.

Micheal Emerson is probably my favorite actor of all time right now based on how he's playing Ben. It's eerie.

I agree with you, calypso. Ben has been morally grey, seemingly bad but maybe working for the greater good. I've thought that there's a big possibility that he's actually good, in a way, in a show that has morally ambiguous "heroes" like Kate, Sawyer, Sayid and Locke. For Ben's character, this episode was a step from interesting multi-dimensional anti-villain towards a moustache-twirling, clearly evil (and therefore boring) villain.

A master manipulator is someone who understands people's feelings, and knows how to exploit them. Why wouldn't he say something like "I love you" to Juliet? Even if he'd be emotionally immature, he'd still know that that's what women like to hear, not "you're mine!" It was funny and scary, though.

I agree with you, caplyso. Ben has been morally grey, seemingly bad but maybe working for the greater good. I've thought that there's a big possibility that he's actually good, in a way, in a show that has morally ambiguous "heroes" like Kate, Sawyer, Sayid and Locke. For Ben's character, this episode was a step from interesting multi-dimensional anti-villain towards a moustache-twirling, clearly evil (and therefore boring) villain.

A master manipulator is someone who understands people's feelings, and knows how to exploit them. Why wouldn't he say something like "I love you" to Juliet? Even if he'd be emotionally immature, he'd still know that that's what women like to hear, not "you're mine!" It was funny and scary, though.

Happy to see that i'm not the only one to feel that. ;)

Happy to see that i'm not the only one to feel that. ;)

Well, Ben is my Significant Other, I have to defend him.:biggrin:

Wasn't Ben's acting fantastic though? The way he skipped around the kitchen when Juliette came for dinner.. like he was 20 years younger.. and the way he says. "you're mine" and then composes himself and says, "take all the time you need"...
fantastic. creepy. fantastic... :o :eek2: :o

I'm always amazed how some people bend over backwards to insist how "good" Ben is. They always cite some vague future plot revelation which will show he had no choice but to do the things he's done. And they completely ignore every single vile thing the man has done in every scene since his introduction.

Has he ever actually done anything good? Have we ever seen any reason (other than his own insistence, liar though he's proven to be) to believe he's secretly one of "the good guys"? Or is "we don't know the whole story!!!" seriously the only defense one can muster when, say, Ben asks Locke to stab his own defenseless father to death in front of some kidnapped children?

No, I'm sure we just don't know the whole story, and any second we'll actually see him do something good. On screen, even! I mean, it's not like he's ever had a chance to explain all the terrible things he's done, right?

That was a positively creepy moment, and I felt so bad and fearful for Juliet. At that moment, she had to have realized how deep her predicament on the island was. Ben was serious, and she was stuck. No matter how many times she tried to convince him to let her go.

Well it's not as if we didn't already know, but that scene showed what a sick SOB Ben really is. Although the line itself was sort of soap-opera'ish it was all in the Emerson's delivery.

I think that Ben is indeed creepy, however, I also believe that he knows what is going to happen in the future, which I believe is something bad, so he's acting this way to prevent this bad stuff from happening. Although I think he didn't realize how tough the Losties are... ... the b/c you're mine was definately creepy but the see you all at dinner, I thought was hilarious!

Sayid definitely got there first in terms of seeing through Ben's lies (and giving him a ood beating).

The strength of a good villain is the way he or she is played. Emerson gets it spot on every time, and "You're mine" was a prime example. It may have been a horribly spiteful thing to say to Juliet at that moment in time, but it was another great moment in the show. He's the most interesting character in Lost at the moment, and has been for some time. Ben always drives the story forward in a way that no other character has so far. Call him evil. Call him creepy. Call him what you will. I know I feed off of his presence on the screen, and I'm sure the same is true for a shed load of people on this board.

Peace
M

Sayid definitely got there first in terms of seeing through Ben's lies (and giving him a ood beating).

The strength of a good villain is the way he or she is played. Emerson gets it spot on every time, and "You're mine" was a prime example. It may have been a horribly spiteful thing to say to Juliet at that moment in time, but it was another great moment in the show. He's the most interesting character in Lost at the moment, and has been for some time. Ben always drives the story forward in a way that no other character has so far. Call him evil. Call him creepy. Call him what you will. I know I feed off of his presence on the screen, and I'm sure the same is true for a shed load of people on this board.

Peace
M

Yes, yes, right on!!! And not even this board, this board is full of those who liked the show at first and are only concerned about Jate, Skate, or now Jaculate...Most random viewers that just "watch the show" adore Ben 'cause he is something new, like Anthony Hopkins in The Silence of The Lambs, only much, much better :biggrin:

I'm always amazed how some people bend over backwards to insist how "good" Ben is. They always cite some vague future plot revelation which will show he had no choice but to do the things he's done. And they completely ignore every single vile thing the man has done in every scene since his introduction.

Has he ever actually done anything good? Have we ever seen any reason (other than his own insistence, liar though he's proven to be) to believe he's secretly one of "the good guys"? Or is "we don't know the whole story!!!" seriously the only defense one can muster when, say, Ben asks Locke to stab his own defenseless father to death in front of some kidnapped children?

No, I'm sure we just don't know the whole story, and any second we'll actually see him do something good. On screen, even! I mean, it's not like he's ever had a chance to explain all the terrible things he's done, right?

I've never said he's good, or not even as bad as he seems to be. I was saying that if it turns out someone else is even worse than him, he might not be the central bad guy anymore, but a lesser evil. Not good, just not as all-powerful as we might think him to be now. I mean, Sayid must end up working for him for a reason, right? The Losties might end up having to put their justified hatred of him aside and ally themselves with Ben's evil little self, in order to bring a greater evil down. Does that make sense?

creepy as in mentally disturbed. Especially when followed by the chipper "take as much time as you need!"


That following "You're mine" was a one-two kick to the soft parts.


And the fact that everybody's talking about what a sick, creepy mofo he is is a credit to the writers and to Emerson. There's another one-two punch, but in a good way. It takes talent to write good lines and it takes acting of the caliber of Emerson's to bring it home. Give them all Emmys.

I also love this clumsy run up the hill, all mad and infuriated at this girl who is not living up to her role as love-substitute.

girlgoescrazy - I'm sure Michael Emerson would be flattered by the positive comparison with Sir Anthony! :)

Lost in TS - A one-two kick to Juliet's "soft parts"? What kind of experiments have the Others/Dharma been conducting!? :fear: ;)

I've been maintaining that Ben has been a villian all along. We have justified his mass murder, and other evil deeds along the way in different ways, but last night, how do you justify what he did to Juliet? It's EVIL pure and simple. Ben is one evil man.
I couldn't disagree more. Controlling, manipulative,creepy & more. all adjectives to describe Ben. Still, if you look at all of his actions from the viewpoint that he is indeed a good guy, who has been chosen by the Island, to protect it from exploitation from the outside world. & Ben sees this as his noble calling, all of his actions can be not only justified but seen as noble & heroic.
As far as what happened to Juliette in The Other Woman. This flash back is from Juliettes point of view! After being manipulated by Harper. What if Harper was trying to turn Juliette against Ben. Harper was the one who told Juliette that Ben would cause consequences if she continued her affair with Gooswin. What if Goodwin left Harper because she had a thing for Ben? & she was trying to instill fear of Ben in Juliettes mind! Can we say for certainty from Juliettes memory & flashbacks that Ben did indeed have this thing for Juliette that would drive him to arrange Goodwins death? Remember this is Juliette's memory, she could be wrong in her reasoning! I'm inclined to think it was more that Ben thought of her as his because he will never allow her to leave the Island.

To test my opinion that Ben is not evil, give me any action he's done that you believe is evil & I will attemp an explanation. fair enough?

I'm not sure Harper has a thing for Ben...but i also think there's a possiblity that her and Goodwin are not as great as they seem to be ...oops...they don't seem that good:
-what if harper never saw/received order from Ben and was just trying to use Juliet's fear of him to make her do what she wanted? kill everyone on this island (including Ben!) except the others who were at the temple in security i suppose...
-We saw Goodwin with a chemical burn...we saw him seduce Anna lucia when he was supposed to be in love with Juliet, and finaly we saw him killing Nathan.

What if Goodwin and Harper are just manipulating Juliet against ben because is the leader and they don't want him to be anymore...

What if Goodwin's interest on Juliet was just motivated by the fact that Ben has a crush on her?

maybe she is a mine of knowledge, that they harvest from

I'm not sure Harper has a thing for Ben...but i also think there's a possiblity that her and Goodwin are not as great as they seem to be ...oops...they don't seem that good:
-what if harper never saw/received order from Ben and was just trying to use Juliet's fear of him to make her do what she wanted? kill everyone on this island (including Ben!) except the others who were at the temple in security i suppose...
-We saw Goodwin with a chemical burn...we saw him seduce Anna lucia when he was supposed to be in love with Juliet, and finaly we saw him killing Nathan.

What if Goodwin and Harper are just manipulating Juliet against ben because is the leader and they don't want him to be anymore...

What if Goodwin's interest on Juliet was just motivated by the fact that Ben has a crush on her?
:o Interesting theory.. we know that Harper is another survivor of the Dharma Initiative (someone did a screencapture of her diploma issued by Dharma for Experimental Psychology, hanging on her wall behind where Juliette was sitting).. maybe Goodwin was also.. we don't know that yet.
Harper also asked Juliette, first question actually, what she thought of Ben. Then she got into the affair with her husband bit.
There are clearly a few powerful women among the 'others'.. Harper is one of them, the other one we only saw for a short shot when Juliette was being tried for helping Sawyer and Kate escape. She was a creepy one too.. still remember her face and it was a flash almost.:o

Can we say for certainty from Juliettes memory & flashbacks that Ben did indeed have this thing for Juliette that would drive him to arrange Goodwins death? Remember this is Juliette's memory, she could be wrong in her reasoning! I'm inclined to think it was more that Ben thought of her as his because he will never allow her to leave the Island.So Ben not allowing Juliet to leave the island (despite their explicit agreement promising otherwise) is supposed to be a defense of Ben's actions?

And where did you get the idea that the events of this (or any) flashback are "memories" and are somehow malleable depending on the "point-of-view"? They are as set in stone as any of the events on the island.

To test my opinion that Ben is not evil, give me any action he's done that you believe is evil & I will attemp an explanation. fair enough?Here are a few off the top of my head:


A plane crashes on the island. Ben knows this was a passenger plane, and the people on board are not from some corporation bent on "exploiting" the island. He does not approach the survivors to offer help (he does have a way of getting them rescued, after all). Instead, he orders his people to dress up like hillbillies and start terrorizing them, dragging many off into the jungle against their will. The two men he ordered to infiltrate the survivor groups each kill a man (Nathan, Scott (Steve?), and almost Charlie).
Ben orders his people to forcibly take a boy from his father and then blow up the kid's raft. Ben's people then leave the three men from the raft (one who is seriously wounded and bleeding) to die in shark-infested waters, far from shore.
Ben locks the aforementioned kidnapping victim in a brainwashing chamber for long periods of time.
Ben does the same thing to the boyfriend of his daughter (who herself is a victim of kidnapping), for no other reason than he's the boyfriend of his daughter.
Ben uses a father's desperation to free his kidnapped son in order to capture three more of the plane crash survivors. He keeps them locked in cages and orders them to do hard labor. He tries to coerce one into performing surgery on him by threatening to kill one of the others. He never offers any explanation to any of his captives, despite having plenty of time to do so.
Ben orders Locke to stab his bound (and defenseless) father to death in front of a group of strangers, including several kidnapped children.
Ben orders his people to forcibly kidnap the remaining women from the survivors' camp. Any man who tries to keep their women from being dragged off into the jungle is to be shot and killed.I'm sure I could come up with many more. It's been awhile since I've seen the earlier seasons.


Now here is my challenge: defend these actions using only what we have seen on the show. If your defense has to rely on weak, unsupported conjecture like "Maybe Ben can see the future!!!" I'll be seriously underwhelmed...

So Ben not allowing Juliet to leave the island (despite their explicit agreement promising otherwise) is supposed to be a defense of Ben's actions?

And where did you get the idea that the events of this (or any) flashback are "memories" and are somehow malleable depending on the "point-of-view"? They are as set in stone as any of the events on the island.

who says so? You? I don't buy it & neither do many more Lost fans. There is plenty of debate going on about the flashbacks & flashforwards. This episode I believe shows that the persons memory & pov can play a role in the flashback depiction. Has Ben ever acted as a giddy school boy before? this is the way Juliette perceived him. & people will often witness the same event, yet will remember & interpret those events in their own way, from their singular pov. If Ben were to tell the story of this time with Juliette, he would interpret it very differently than Juliette. Set in stone?? maybe to the close minded.

your other points are well taken, but I won't get into a debate with you over each one. But I will say not all of your points are true, some actions are assumptions & as you insist are not actual scenes from the show. look carefully at your charges concerning Michael & Walt. Ben was a prisoner of the Losties when Michael makes his deal. You say he knows the Losties are innocent survivors of a random plane accident. That is an assumption you have made.
The bottom line answer that will justify Ben's actions to all of your accusations is this. Ben is at war. He knows there are very powerful forces after him & his group, the Others. He must assume that anyone who comes to the Island is there to kill them all! He is protecting the Island, doing it's bidding & protecting his people. Very noble & heroic!! Go Ben!!

one last note. He considers Alex his daughter. To protect her from a pregnancy he knows could kill her would drive him to any means to protect her. I'd do the same for my daughter.

This was the scariest voice I have heard on this show. If Jacob, The Monster, the Man On The Boat, Ethan Rom and Charlie's Vision of Aaron Needing To Be Baptized all showed up together on Halloween night, it still would not have been scarier than that moment.

It made me think of the scene in fellowship of the rings when bilbo goes all crazy eyed and pointy toothed!! You're mine (precious!)

Grace

who says so? You? I don't buy it & neither do many more Lost fans. There is plenty of debate going on about the flashbacks & flashforwards. This episode I believe shows that the persons memory & pov can play a role in the flashback depiction. Has Ben ever acted as a giddy school boy before? this is the way Juliette perceived him. & people will often witness the same event, yet will remember & interpret those events in their own way, from their singular pov. If Ben were to tell the story of this time with Juliette, he would interpret it very differently than Juliette. Set in stone?? maybe to the close minded.

your other points are well taken, but I won't get into a debate with you over each one. But I will say not all of your points are true, some actions are assumptions & as you insist are not actual scenes from the show. look carefully at your charges concerning Michael & Walt. Ben was a prisoner of the Losties when Michael makes his deal. You say he knows the Losties are innocent survivors of a random plane accident. That is an assumption you have made.
The bottom line answer that will justify Ben's actions to all of your accusations is this. Ben is at war. He knows there are very powerful forces after him & his group, the Others. He must assume that anyone who comes to the Island is there to kill them all! He is protecting the Island, doing it's bidding & protecting his people. Very noble & heroic!! Go Ben!!

one last note. He considers Alex his daughter. To protect her from a pregnancy he knows could kill her would drive him to any means to protect her. I'd do the same for my daughter.

A very, very good post! Way to go!!!!! We only see things from Alex's point of view there, for eXample. She's an angry teenage girl who wants to have lots of seX with her sweetheart. OF COURSE she's not aware of the consequences...Many people in real lives do it as well, duuuh, it's a perfect depiction. And, yup, she was stolen from her mother...Her sick in the head mother whose whole crew died because of this mysterious sickness...She gave birth to the baby a week after she crashed on a dangerous Island...How in the name of heaven and hell would that baby survive with her??? HOW??? Now, a good question would maybe be why not take both of them, but that remains to be seen...I'm pretty sure Ben had a good reason to leave Rousseau on her own...Or maybe he didn't leave her at all??? She said she avoided them for 16 years, yet when Ben introduced Alex to her in that awkward scene, he looked pretty familiar with her mother...That remains to be answered, but, seriously, duuuuudes, spare me the story where Ben chasing Karl away is so evil.

Now, a good question would maybe be why not take both of them, but that remains to be seen...

Interesting, i think you"re right!
Maybe Ben kidnapped Alex because she was on the list like Zack and the other little girl and left Rousseau just because she wasn't! We see in the last episode that he doesn't seem to question the orders at this point...(at least that's what he said to JUliet)


JULIET: They're really sweet kids.(Chuckles) Ben, they've been asking me about their mother in Los Angeles. I'm not really sure what to say.
BEN: They'll stop asking in time.
JULIET: They're children. Do they really belong here?
BEN: They're on the list, Juliet. Who are we to question who's on the list and who's not?


But i think he changed at some point...because of Juliet...it was her idea to get jack and he did it...but we know from Pickett that jack wasn't on the list...:rolleyes: maybe that's why jacob was pissed at him in The man behind the curtain...he started questioning orders??? he was about to gave back Alex to his mother...i'm not sure that's what jacob wanted????

We don't know enough to judge Ben that's my opinion!

who says so? You? I don't buy it & neither do many more Lost fans. There is plenty of debate going on about the flashbacks & flashforwards. This episode I believe shows that the persons memory & pov can play a role in the flashback depiction. Has Ben ever acted as a giddy school boy before? this is the way Juliette perceived him. & people will often witness the same event, yet will remember & interpret those events in their own way, from their singular pov. If Ben were to tell the story of this time with Juliette, he would interpret it very differently than Juliette. Set in stone?? maybe to the close minded.

your other points are well taken, but I won't get into a debate with you over each one. But I will say not all of your points are true, some actions are assumptions & as you insist are not actual scenes from the show. look carefully at your charges concerning Michael & Walt. Ben was a prisoner of the Losties when Michael makes his deal. You say he knows the Losties are innocent survivors of a random plane accident. That is an assumption you have made.
The bottom line answer that will justify Ben's actions to all of your accusations is this. Ben is at war. He knows there are very powerful forces after him & his group, the Others. He must assume that anyone who comes to the Island is there to kill them all! He is protecting the Island, doing it's bidding & protecting his people. Very noble & heroic!! Go Ben!!

one last note. He considers Alex his daughter. To protect her from a pregnancy he knows could kill her would drive him to any means to protect her. I'd do the same for my daughter.
You make some good points as far as interpreting the happenings, however, the things that we see happen, do happen. They are not just Juliette's version of what happened, because she is not narrating the storyline... they happened. Now, if you like, it would be fare to question whether Ben was acting like a giddy school boy because he was 'pretending' to be smitten with Juliette, or because he really is.. but the fact is there.. that's how he behaved. We are looking at things through a camera lens.. not someone's imagination.
As far as Ben's protecting Alex: You said..
" He considers Alex his daughter. To protect her from a pregnancy he knows could kill her would drive him to any means to protect her. I'd do the same for my daughter."
I doubt that you would imprison your daughter's boyfriend and lock him in a room and attempt to brainwash him.. Clockwork Orange style. At least I hope you wouldn't.

We have seen almost all characters in the show have good and bad in them, Ben being no exception. The question that arises, is what are his main motives..

Also, I am curious what people think.. what have we seen Charles Widmore do that is terrible, other than being a real AH to Desmond. Really.. what else?

If Ben were to tell the story of this time with Juliette, he would interpret it very differently than Juliette.If the flashbacks were presented as someone "telling their story" then I would agree with you. But when have ever seen a flashback negated by someone else's "point of view"? And why don't the flashbacks of, say, Jack or Locke show them in the same unvarnished light you seem to imply is behind the presentation of Juliet's flashback? It sounds like you just don't like Ben being presented as a creepy loser, so you explain it away by saying it's untrue, despite actually having seen it on screen.

Which is exactly my point: the Ben apologists pin their hopes on things we haven't seen or have no real reason to believe in order to insist he's good and "noble." And of course, when confronted by a list of his deeds, they promptly ignore it.

But I will say not all of your points are true, some actions are assumptions & as you insist are not actual scenes from the show. look carefully at your charges concerning Michael & Walt. Ben was a prisoner of the Losties when Michael makes his deal.In Expose, we see a scene of Ben and Juliet in the Pearl Station. Ben tells her he will use Michael to bring Sawyer, Kate and Jack to him. Using Michael to free Ben was an afterthought brought on by necessity.

You say he knows the Losties are innocent survivors of a random plane accident.Indeed he does. Right after the crash, Ben brings Juliet to the Flame Station. He sees the footage from various news stations about the missing plane, and he requests files on the passengers from Mikhail. Those files undoubtedly show it was a plane full of people flying to L.A. (and we certainly have no reason to believe otherwise!).

The bottom line answer that will justify Ben's actions to all of your accusations is this. Ben is at war. Accusations? These aren't "alleged" acts, these are things we've actually seen happen!

But okay, so I didn't really expect you to be able to explain any of the awful things he's done. "He's at war!!!!1" doesn't even begin to provide an answer for the things I listed. But feel free to hold on to that notion if you'd like, clutching it close like a ragged childhood blanket, but just don't look at it too closely. You may not like what you find!

one last note. He considers Alex his daughter. To protect her from a pregnancy he knows could kill her would drive him to any means to protect her. I'd do the same for my daughter.Yeah, I suppose imprisoning some teenage boy and mentally torturing him is the only thing a man can do to keep his daughter from getting pregnant these days, right?

She gave birth to the baby a week after she crashed on a dangerous Island...How in the name of heaven and hell would that baby survive with her??? HOW??? Now, a good question would maybe be why not take both of them, but that remains to be seen...I'm pretty sure Ben had a good reason to leave Rousseau on her own...Rouseau managed to survive just fine on her own. She may have even maintained some sanity if she'd still had her daughter. But look at Aaron. His survival wasn't in question, yet the Others wanted him as well. Suggesting Alex being kidnapped was for her own good just isn't going to cut it. But then, that's beside the point, anyway... It simply wasn't Ben's decision to make.

But either way, your last line epitomizes how those with an infatuation for either the actor or the character try to justify his horrible actions. He must have had a good reason. And if that's what you wish to believe, that's cool.

But the difference between you and me is this: present me with actual evidence, and I'll change my mind. If we see (in some phantom future episode) Ben actually having a good reason to explain away anything from my previous list, I'll happily alter my opinion of him.

Though, somehow, I get the feeling I'll be waiting for Godot.

Just a silly idea that came in my mind...what if JUliet was Ben's daughter ...the "you're mine" would have a completly different sense...
It could explain why she looks like Ben's mother... (or she can be Annie's daughter and it could explain the "she looks like her")

I know i know ...the age doesn't work...too bad!

If the flashbacks were presented as someone "telling their story" then I would agree with you. But when have ever seen a flashback negated by someone else's "point of view"?

Back in Season 1, the shared flashback between Jin and Sun in front of the bathroom mirror has some interesting differences. Four in total, to be precise. Each FB is shot from the POV of the character "having" the flashback. POV in this case means "known by the character". Thus, Jin's FB does not include Sun asleep on the couch before he gets home (it's only in hers because she knows this, not Jin) and Sun's FB does not include Jin crying in front of the mirror - which only Jin knows.

All three FBs from the Pilot episodes have discrepancies in the dialogue.

What I want to know is if Harper intervened on her own initiative, or perhaps from Richard Alpert... not to get Juliet to kill Daniel and Charlotte, but to get her to realize the lengths to which Ben would go to suit his own needs... and if, in fact, she arranged the affair between Goodwin and Juliet precisely to bring that understanding home.

Just a silly idea that came in my mind...what if JUliet was Ben's daughter ...the "you're mine" would have a completly different sense...
It could explain why she looks like Ben's mother... (or she can be Annie's daughter and it could explain the "she looks like her")

I know i know ...the age doesn't work...too bad!Weird! And interesting! With the time effects of the island, you never know.

But it would sure make the "dinner date" scene really creepy...

Back in Season 1, the shared flashback between Jin and Sun in front of the bathroom mirror has some interesting differences. Four in total, to be precise. Each FB is shot from the POV of the character "having" the flashback. POV in this case means "known by the character".But the events of Jin's flashback don't change what happened in Sun's. The previous poster was suggesting that Ben's behaviour would be completely different in a Ben flashback (like Juliet would be swooning over his rapier wit; also he'd look like Cary Grant).

Which is exactly my point: the Ben apologists pin their hopes on things we haven't seen or have no real reason to believe in order to insist he's good and "noble." And of course, when confronted by a list of his deeds, they promptly ignore it.

In Expose, we see a scene of Ben and Juliet in the Pearl Station. Ben tells her he will use Michael to bring Sawyer, Kate and Jack to him. Using Michael to free Ben was an afterthought brought on by necessity.

Indeed he does. Right after the crash, Ben brings Juliet to the Flame Station. He sees the footage from various news stations about the missing plane, and he requests files on the passengers from Mikhail. Those files undoubtedly show it was a plane full of people flying to L.A. (and we certainly have no reason to believe otherwise!).

Hey Dude, we're just debating a TV show here. chill. I have to say again. what evidence can you offer to support how you interpret these events you mention. Nothing shown on any episode proves your points I included in your quotes here. When the plane crashes Ben does go to Mikhael for any information on the plane & those on board. He wants to know as much about them as he can. Why do you make the assumption he knows they are innocent & not something he considers meanacing. If you think you know what is happening on all the levels of all the characters, then you must be watching a different show.
What you consider an afterthought on the Michael issue. Your afterthought? where is that presented on the show?
You asked that I play by your rules & deal with what we see on screen & on the show. You make huge asumptions, believing what you want to fit your view. I like to keep an open mind & theorize & not assume as you do. you know the old line about assuming.

Weird! And interesting! With the time effects of the island, you never know.

But it would sure make the "dinner date" scene really creepy...


And you know what...in lost i don't know but in real life there's 16 years between michael and elisabeth! lol :rolleyes:
The dinner date...i don't know...i think maybe Ben didn't like Goodwin for the same reason that he doesn't like karl...:rolleyes:
this is exactly the story of "Obsession" Brian De palma's movie...and who filmed Carrie...brian de palma so why not...

what evidence can you offer to support how you interpret these events you mention. Nothing shown on any episode proves your points I included in your quotes here. When the plane crashes Ben does go to Mikhael for any information on the plane & those on board. He wants to know as much about them as he can. Why do you make the assumption he knows they are innocent & not something he considers meanacing. If you think you know what is happening on all the levels of all the characters, then you must be watching a different show.
What you consider an afterthought on the Michael issue. Your afterthought? where is that presented on the show?Um...what?


Did you not see the scene in The Flame (One of Us) where Ben sees the news coverage of the passenger plane crash? You know, the Sydney to L.A. flight?

Did you not see the scene in The Pearl (Expose) where Ben outlines his plan to use Michael to bring Jack, Kate, and Sawyer to the Others?

Wait a second! You're just trying to change the subject, aren't you?

Um...what?


Did you not see the scene in The Flame (One of Us) where Ben sees the news coverage of the passenger plane crash? You know, the Sydney to L.A. flight?

Did you not see the scene in The Pearl (Expose) where Ben outlines his plan to use Michael to bring Jack, Kate, and Sawyer to the Others?

Wait a second! You're just trying to change the subject, aren't you?

duuhh whut??

what in those scenes prove your point? have you been watching this year & last. Ben is of the belief that someone is coming to kill him & everyone on the Island. Will you concede that is his belief? So, even after conferring with Mikhael, he believes any survivors could be there to do harm to him & his group. Is that open to debate? No!

Also, we don't know what happens to Michael after he takes off to find Walt. We do know that Ben was a captive of the Losties.

Here's another point about Ben. Are you blaming him for actions attributable to Jacob? I'll go with your rule of only going with what we've seen & heard on the show & we'll accept that as written in stone. OK? Ben tells us, he's one of the good guys. He tells Mikhail he's acting on Jacob's orders. More than one Other mentions Jacob as their true leader & it's Jacob's lists that are used for the abductions.Ben's afraid that if they're discovered everyone on the Island will be killed. You're the one who's picking & choosing what to believe what he see's on screen. Give a count of Ben's group who has been killed as opposed to the harm he has actually done to the plane survivors. You have to agree Ben's side is not doing very well. He is defending his people. Do you argue with that?

what subject am I trying to change? some of your points I'm not going to get into because I feel we will just have to agree to disagree & I don't want the mods to step in.

I'm always amazed how some people bend over backwards to insist how "good" Ben is. They always cite some vague future plot revelation which will show he had no choice but to do the things he's done. And they completely ignore every single vile thing the man has done in every scene since his introduction.
Well, I believe that Ben will turn out to be good, but it's not really based on anything concrete. I believe this because that will make him a better, more complex character. All the characters on the show are so wonderfully complex - you love them and want to strangle them at the same time (or is that just me being violent? :biggrin: ). I feel that Ben is no different. I think that maybe people were starting to believe him a little too much, so the writers decided to put us off with that line. As soon as we're totally convinced that he's evil we'll find something that makes us question that. 'Tis the writers' way. But that is totally just mho.

Just a silly idea that came in my mind...what if JUliet was Ben's daughter ...the "you're mine" would have a completly different sense...
It could explain why she looks like Ben's mother... (or she can be Annie's daughter and it could explain the "she looks like her")

I know i know ...the age doesn't work...too bad!
Oh, that would be awesome!

it is a safe bet to presume that Ben will die, maybe even in not so distant future...

Then you don't understand corporate greed. Corporate greed is about money, and the Ben character, so brilliantly portrayed by Michael Emerson, is money in the bank for the producers. His tete-a-tetes with Locke are the biggest draws for this show, and they are not likely to kill the golden goose anytime soon.

My bet? He dies in the very last episode of the very last season.

We'll see.

My bet? He dies in the very last episode of the very last season.

And then he becomes leader of the Losties in the zombie season. :)

Rouseau managed to survive just fine on her own. She may have even maintained some sanity if she'd still had her daughter. But look at Aaron. His survival wasn't in question, yet the Others wanted him as well. Suggesting Alex being kidnapped was for her own good just isn't going to cut it. But then, that's beside the point, anyway... It simply wasn't Ben's decision to make.

But either way, your last line epitomizes how those with an infatuation for either the actor or the character try to justify his horrible actions. He must have had a good reason. And if that's what you wish to believe, that's cool.

But the difference between you and me is this: present me with actual evidence, and I'll change my mind. If we see (in some phantom future episode) Ben actually having a good reason to explain away anything from my previous list, I'll happily alter my opinion of him.

Though, somehow, I get the feeling I'll be waiting for Godot.


I don't know that yet, I base my liking of Ben's character on my own belief that he is doing everything for the greater good. You are right when you talk about infatuation, but that is a little irrational, and I'm definitely not one of those people...If you believe he's bad, that's also okay, I'm just debating that it might very well get proved that he did everything for a reason, and I'm just keeping an open mind, instead a number of dip****s (some of them also present here) who hate Ben's character just for the sake of hating him, and go to the other side of extreme and irrational and say how every smirk he makes is pure evil...Ben is by far the most mysterious character with a lot going on, and I'm sure that, with the quality the show has, Darlton won't just let him slip and portray him as Grendel, or some savage monster...
100%
Then you don't understand corporate greed. Corporate greed is about money, and the Ben character, so brilliantly portrayed by Michael Emerson, is money in the bank for the producers. His tete-a-tetes with Locke are the biggest draws for this show, and they are not likely to kill the golden goose anytime soon.

My bet? He dies in the very last episode of the very last season.

We'll see.

Oh, yup, I know that, but people are still hating him, and what I said eXactly was that he will EVENTUALLY be killed off, because that's the way it works...Just like with Snape, I used that example (the kids don't like a character like that, so JK has to make him die, even though he was not bad)...We know that he's a golden goose, that's exactly why Darlton wanted him on the show in the first place, but villains have to be killed off, so that some people can be happy, which is silly...
My bet is also he dies in Season 6, some time before the end...So we do agree there, haha...Hopefully he doesn't die.

what in those scenes prove your point?Here's a quick recap!


ME: "Ben uses a father's desperation to free his kidnapped son in order to capture three more of the plane crash survivors."

YOU: "some actions are assumptions & as you insist are not actual scenes from the show...Ben was a prisoner of the Losties when Michael makes his deal."

ME: (cites Expose)


And this is where we came in!


So here is the relevant scene from Expose:JULIET: So, what? We just grab all three of them, Ford and Austen too? BEN: No they need to come to us. JULIET: And how do we make that happen? BEN: Michael, of course.


QED.

I'm thinking Ben's girlfriend really did a number on him.
Short of cheating on him while telling him his dad is the coolest person ever, phoning the Hostiles and telling them Ben loves Hanson, ate his last Apollo Bar and then killed his bunny, I'd say Ben has woman issues.

I'm thinking Ben's girlfriend really did a number on him.
Short of cheating on him while telling him his dad is the coolest person ever, phoning the Hostiles and telling them Ben loves Hanson, ate his last Apollo Bar and then killed his bunny, I'd say Ben has woman issues.
You're a riot.. hahaha :D :D :D
But, also don't forget... before she left him, she told him he looked really cute with that haircut, and gave him some friendly advice that the next time he falls for a girl, he should be a bit more assertive.. :hypocrit: LOL

Wow. I'm really enjoying all of the heated debate. A few of you might want to take it easy with the personal attacks. Not that I mind at all. Just be careful.

Anyway, I have an extensive background in the lawncare industry, so I know what I'm talking about here...

First of all, good and evil are not universal. Period.

Secondly, I have to disagree with anyone who thinks that Ben's statement, "you're mine" was soap-opera-ish. I've seen a few soaps in my day, and if anyone thinks that Frisco Jones or John Black could pull off that same level of intensity, well... I don't know. It's just not happening.

And finally, everyone is going to die eventually. And since time has little meaning on Lost, as we're witnessing the past, present, and future simultaneously, to say that someone will die in an upcoming episode is a moot point.

You are mine = A mine of information!

A plane crashes on the island. Ben knows this was a passenger plane, and the people on board are not from some corporation bent on "exploiting" the island. Ben knew that it was a passenger plane after Mikhail told him. But maybe they suspected that some of the passengers were connected to the Others' enemies. This might have been one of the reasons why the Others wanted to research the Losties' backgrounds.

Hey there,
Yeah, I'm not buying the obsessive Juliet longing that Ben's throwing. I mean, all he does is manipulate. That's it! And what did he mean "all I did to get you here"? What did he do, send Ethan and Richard with a powerpoint presentation and then, perhaps, have her ex-husband hit by a bus? (setting her free and doing her a favor) It seemed logical that Ben would shoot Locke out of jealousy, but fawning all over Juliet just seems too far fetched to be anything but a plant.

I'm down with the Judas Iscariot version of Ben. No matter what his deeds, he's playing part for a larger outcome. And as far as our losties go, I'm guessing that betting on Ben is the only way they'll end up okay in the end.

p.s. I really HATE Juliet anyway. Whiny HO! Smoochin' on Jack like it's her business! NO WAY!

Here's a quick recap!


ME: "Ben uses a father's desperation to free his kidnapped son in order to capture three more of the plane crash survivors."

YOU: "some actions are assumptions & as you insist are not actual scenes from the show...Ben was a prisoner of the Losties when Michael makes his deal."

ME: (cites Expose)


And this is where we came in!






So here is the relevant scene from Expose:JULIET: So, what? We just grab all three of them, Ford and Austen too? BEN: No they need to come to us. JULIET: And how do we make that happen? BEN: Michael, of course.QED.
great spisode. Michael is coming back soon. I wonder if we may see more of what happened during the time under debate. My point is we have never seen on screen the outcome of that conversation between Juliette & Ben. Until we do, we cannot say that it is set in stone what happened. Were any Others involved in Michaels decision? Why did he kill 2 Losties? Was Jacob involved? Is Michael who he seems to be?

What truley happened during the time Michael was with the Others??

To prove your point with your rules of having seen it on screen, show me the seen where Ben USES Michael, not discusses a furure plan with Juliette. which returns us to my original point. You're making an assumption over a scene that indicates something has happened that we have not actually seen on screen.
BTW friend, I do have questions as stated above over what happened when Michael was with the Others, & I think it's gonna be an eye opener, but I think you're on track with Ben's plan. I differ from you in that I don't see your conclusions as being set in stone & the action as the evil that you originally described it to be.

thanks, enjoy the show, this is getting to be overkill,

Go Ben!!!

I'm outtahere!!!

Oh, I'll definitely hold Jacob responsible for anything we see him do.

Right now, I completely blame him for shaking up his house.
100%You are right when you talk about infatuation, but that is a little irrational, and I'm definitely not one of those people.. I'm just keeping an open mind, instead a number of dip****s (some of them also present here) who hate Ben's character just for the sake of hating himHmm... Personally attacking people who disagree with you is exactly the kind of thing that'll make people believe you're infatuated! ;)

I base my liking of Ben's character on my own belief that he is doing everything for the greater good.Hey, out of curiosity, have you seen my list? Any ideas about how some of these things could be justified by the "greater good"?

A plane crashes on the island. Ben knows this was a passenger plane, and the people on board are not from some corporation bent on "exploiting" the island. He does not approach the survivors to offer help (he does have a way of getting them rescued, after all). Instead, he orders his people to dress up like hillbillies and start terrorizing them, dragging many off into the jungle against their will. The two men he ordered to infiltrate the survivor groups each kill a man (Nathan, Scott (Steve?), and almost Charlie).
Ben orders his people to forcibly take a boy from his father and then blow up the kid's raft. Ben's people then leave the three men from the raft (one who is seriously wounded and bleeding) to die in shark-infested waters, far from shore.
Ben locks the aforementioned kidnapping victim in a brainwashing chamber for long periods of time.
Ben uses a father's desperation to free his kidnapped son in order to capture three more of the plane crash survivors. He keeps them locked in cages and orders them to do hard labor. He tries to coerce one into performing surgery on him by threatening to kill one of the others. He never offers any explanation to any of his captives, despite having plenty of time to do so.
Ben orders Locke to stab his bound (and defenseless) father to death in front of a group of strangers, including several kidnapped children.
Ben orders his people to forcibly kidnap the remaining women from the survivors' camp. Any man who tries to keep their women from being dragged off into the jungle is to be shot and killed.

great spisode. Michael is coming back soon. I wonder if we may see more of what happened during the time under debate. My point is we have never seen on screen the outcome of that conversation between Juliette & Ben. Until we do, we cannot say that it is set in stone what happened. Were any Others involved in Michaels decision? Why did he kill 2 Losties? Was Jacob involved? Is Michael who he seems to be?

Yup, fair points, I just have to notice that in the Skyone podcast it was clearly said that Ben did not know that Goodwin was going to end up dead (he could've presumed, but he for sure didn't plan that), and that he just wanted him away for as long as possible, so he could try to get Juliet to like him instead.
100%
Oh, I'll definitely hold Jacob responsible for anything we see him do.

Right now, I completely blame him for shaking up his house.
100%Hmm... Personally attacking people who disagree with you is exactly the kind of thing that'll make people believe you're infatuated! ;)

Hey, out of curiosity, have you seen my list? Any ideas about how some of these things could be justified by the "greater good"?
A plane crashes on the island. Ben knows this was a passenger plane, and the people on board are not from some corporation bent on "exploiting" the island. He does not approach the survivors to offer help (he does have a way of getting them rescued, after all). Instead, he orders his people to dress up like hillbillies and start terrorizing them, dragging many off into the jungle against their will. The two men he ordered to infiltrate the survivor groups each kill a man (Nathan, Scott (Steve?), and almost Charlie).
Ben orders his people to forcibly take a boy from his father and then blow up the kid's raft. Ben's people then leave the three men from the raft (one who is seriously wounded and bleeding) to die in shark-infested waters, far from shore.
Ben locks the aforementioned kidnapping victim in a brainwashing chamber for long periods of time.
Ben uses a father's desperation to free his kidnapped son in order to capture three more of the plane crash survivors. He keeps them locked in cages and orders them to do hard labor. He tries to coerce one into performing surgery on him by threatening to kill one of the others. He never offers any explanation to any of his captives, despite having plenty of time to do so.
Ben orders Locke to stab his bound (and defenseless) father to death in front of a group of strangers, including several kidnapped children.
Ben orders his people to forcibly kidnap the remaining women from the survivors' camp. Any man who tries to keep their women from being dragged off into the jungle is to be shot and killed.

Oh, man, this could be a loooong discussion, and I have work to do.. :biggrin: Anyways, if I can say it fast, I do believe there are justifications for those things...I really, really can't write it all down, but, as far as Alex goes, he didn't want her to get pregnant and die...He knew Karl and her would disobey any conventional father-talk, so he had to apply extreme measures to make sure Karl wouldn't get her pregnant...We knew he wanted Karl as far away as possible for the time being...As for Locke's dad, that dude was an SOB like no other, and I believe that Ben's immaturity and the overall tribal sense that we got about the Others kicked in there...It is a fact (now, everything can be interpreted differently, but I do believe this is true) that they do act like a tribe, with somewhat primitive, yet very rational and balanced actions, like when they were supposed to kill Juliet because she killed that guy (forgot the name)...It's an eye for an eye system...They have a clear set of beliefs and values and show it on daily basis (I mean their lives as such, not kidnaps and the rest, so don't be confused), and Ben wanted Locke to retaliate for all of his father's malice in order to become one of them or something...It's nor very good, and Ben certainly has daddy issues, but I don't see it as disastrous, simply because Locke's father deserved to die for all he did to everyone.


And then, as far as Losties and kidnaps go...There is a good chance there will be no proper "I'm the good guy, guys" eXplanation for that, but we still don't know anything about that story, so I would just wait until it's eXplained, and then we can see if Ben is a haero, a flawed hero, or a straight-up villain...Okay, time's up, gotta run!!! Cheers! :)

My point is we have never seen on screen the outcome of that conversation between Juliette & Ben. Until we do, we cannot say that it is set in stone what happened.I see. So you think it's just coincidence that after Ben said he'd use Michael to bring Jack, Kate and Sawyer to the Others, Michael was used to bring Jack, Kate and Sawyer to the Others?


As for Locke's dad, that dude was an SOB like no other, and I believe that Ben's immaturity and the overall tribal sense that we got about the Others kicked in there...It is a fact (now, everything can be interpreted differently, but I do believe this is true) that they do act like a tribe, with somewhat primitive, yet very rational and balanced actions, like when they were supposed to kill Juliet because she killed that guy (forgot the name)...Sure, but primitive tribes don't have book clubs and submarines... Ben said most of his people were recruited from off the island (like Juliet, for instance--and Ben himself), so it'll be difficult to argue they're all just primitive savages following their ancient code of ethics. It'll be interesting to see if TPTB try to have it both ways.

I see. So you think it's just coincidence that after Ben said he'd use Michael to bring Jack, Kate and Sawyer to the Others, Michael was used to bring Jack, Kate and Sawyer to the Others?
what I asked for was a scene in the show that shows this happening, not being discussed. consider this, I told my friend I would meet him for dinner last night at McD's, Did I meet my friend at McD's last night? How would you know?
so, why are you ignoring my questions about that scene from a previous post? You're obviously the one trying to change the subject & the rules you set for this debate. Whether I see this as coincidence or not is immaterial , I still say you are entitled to your assumptions & conclusions, just stop insulting other peoples views that are different than your own.
Peace!

Ben could have kept his word and had Tom kill Bernard, Sayid, and Jin on the beach... but he didn't. If that says anything about Ben's good nature...

Ben could have kept his word and had Tom kill Bernard, Sayid, and Jin on the beach... but he didn't. If that says anything about Ben's good nature...He could have decided not to threaten them in the first place, like Gandhi or the Pillsbury Doughboy would have done...

I'll use a spoiler tag just to be safe. This is my opinion on future of Juliack:


I believe that Juliet will eventually make a sacrifice to save Jack. Either she will be left stranded on the island so Jack can get escape or she will put herself between Ben and Jack and pay with her life. I don't see a happy ending here at all.

I think the whole episode showed how unstable mentally Ben really is.

He is brilliant AND crazy...and I'm still wondering about the whisper that seemingly referred to little Ben when asking another whisper, "Did you hear about him?" and "Here is your hope."

What did they mean? Were they only referring to Ben's ability to hear the dead like his mother, and Jacob?

And where did you get the idea that the events of this (or any) flashback are "memories" and are somehow malleable depending on the "point-of-view"? They are as set in stone as any of the events on the island.
Did you happen to catch the pop up in tonights replay, episode 7, where they tell us the plane crash scene is shown from Juliette's & Goodwin's perspective?? Now, where have you heard that recently!!
Go Ben!!
100%
You make some good points as far as interpreting the happenings, however, the things that we see happen, do happen. They are not just Juliette's version of what happened, because she is not narrating the storyline... they happened. Now, if you like, it would be fare to question whether Ben was acting like a giddy school boy because he was 'pretending' to be smitten with Juliette, or because he really is.. but the fact is there.. that's how he behaved. We are looking at things through a camera lens.. not someone's imagination.
please see previous post!! why would the writers choose this episode to reveal this storytelling technique, I think to show that Juliette was fooled by Harper & Goodwin. It was their manipulation of Juliette to fear Ben, that is a coming key plot element. The story of the Hostiles, who become Others is still unexplored.
Save us all Ben!!

Did you happen to catch the pop up in tonights replay, episode 7, where they tell us the plane crash scene is shown from Juliette's & Goodwin's perspective??No kidding. And like I said, the events didn't change. Wake me when they have a pop-up showing how what we saw the first time didn't really happen.

No kidding. And like I said, the events didn't change. Wake me when they have a pop-up showing how what we saw the first time didn't really happen.
the 1st time you viewed that scene I'm sure you told yourself "Wow' Ben is sending Goodwin on a suicide mission because Ben digs Juliette & she digs Goodwin even though he has a wife who has problems with Juliette & warned her about Ben! I'm trying to wake you my man, but I just can't seem to get you to open your eyes!
all I can say my friend is "You're Lost" ; )
it's been fun. enjoy your version of Lost & keep an open mind.
I still wonder why the writers would make that statement in the pop up at that particular episode/moment??
time to move on..
Peace