After Juliet asked, "What could Ben possibly do?" they cut to the plane splitting in half.

Everything that Ben wants happens. He wanted Juliet, so her husband is mysteriously hit by a bus. He needs a spinal surgeon, so he brings Jack through a series of 'coincidences.'

Does Ben know how to mess with the "course" of the universe? To make things happen the way he wants them to?

I think this is what made Harper so nervous. Its also probably what made the golf guy that sayid killed so nervous.

Although an interesting theory, I think TPTB said the "definitive answer" was that Desmond not pushing the button in time was the cause of the plane crash.

Yes, Desmond is the reason that the plane came down. But I firmly believe that Ben orchestrated all of the events leading up to that event. I have long believed that Ben made sure that Kelvin got Desmond away from the button at the right time.

Also note that Ben was not at all surprised when Juliet told him that a spinal surgeon was on the plane. He made Jack be on that plane.

They did, sorta, hint at it...but I figured we knew better, what with the whole Desmond factor. Then again, this episode seemed to elude to the "power" of Ben, as in Ben has powers. Who knows....

I think Ben just took the opportunity of the plane crashing to "innocently" get rid of goodwin, without looking like he did it. He is the ultimate opportunist.........

This is what I'm talking about. He can murder people without anyone knowing that he set the wheels in motion. He took all that abuse and let himself get enprisoned by Locke because it was all a part of a plan. He knows that a series of events must take place in order for him to get to where he wants to be...this was hinted at by Harper.

We know he has people on the outside. What if they act as sort of "bumpers" to push people in certain directions? Maybe the psychic is one of those people? Maybe Christian might have been one of those people (driving him to drink). Locke's "Mother" could have been another one of those people....

Yes, Desmond is the reason that the plane came down. But I firmly believe that Ben orchestrated all of the events leading up to that event. I have long believed that Ben made sure that Kelvin got Desmond away from the button at the right time.

Also note that Ben was not at all surprised when Juliet told him that a spinal surgeon was on the plane. He made Jack be on that plane.

That was actually my first thought upon seeing that whole bit, but about a minute later I was pretty certain the statement was more a reference to Ben sending Goodwin to die.

I think this is what made Harper so nervous. Its also probably what made the golf guy that sayid killed so nervous.

I got the impression that Harper was more concerned with Ben's feelings being hurt. She seemed almost entirely devoted to him, y'know?

I'm not sure that he brought down the plane but I think he
used it to his advantage and so it as an advantage.

Send him off! Get rid of him! If he returns, he returns. If he
dies, even better!

Right, but Ben knew none of those people when he sent Goodwyn to them...or did he? :) He obviously knew what was going to happen if he realized Goodwyn would die.

That was actually my first thought upon seeing that whole bit, but about a minute later I was pretty certain the statement was more a reference to Ben sending Goodwin to die.



I got the impression that Harper was more concerned with Ben's feelings being hurt. She seemed almost entirely devoted to him, y'know?

No way was Ben responsible for the plane crash. No way. It has been established that Desmond did it by accident. Also its near impossible to say Ben orchastrated the entire thing. It was fate that Desmond followed Kelvin out of the hatch this time and no other time. It was fate there fight took this long exaclty and he accidently killed Kelvin. It was fate he was able to push the code in at all considering the clock was past zero.

Here's the thing, if Ben did some how make it happen then it means Ben can control time, space, fate, eternity, destiny, the future and so on and so on. If that's the case Ben would be able to cure his own tumor, keep the island safe himself and would be more powerful than EVERY person combined on the face of the earth.

Fate made it happen so the plane would crash.

Ah ha! But he could have cured his own Tumor by bringing Jack. :) See, that is what Im saying. A person with this kind of power can make any fate happen at will and make it look like "it just happened that way." It's orchestrating chaos.

The one oversite is that he didnt realize Desmond was linked to Penny Widmore...and maybe that was his ultimate mistake.

No way was Ben responsible for the plane crash. No way. It has been established that Desmond did it by accident. Also its near impossible to say Ben orchastrated the entire thing. It was fate that Desmond followed Kelvin out of the hatch this time and no other time. It was fate there fight took this long exaclty and he accidently killed Kelvin. It was fate he was able to push the code in at all considering the clock was past zero.

Here's the thing, if Ben did some how make it happen then it means Ben can control time, space, fate, eternity, destiny, the future and so on and so on. If that's the case Ben would be able to cure his own tumor, keep the island safe himself and would be more powerful than EVERY person combined on the face of the earth.

Fate made it happen so the plane would crash.

Ah ha! But he could have cured his own Tumor by bringing Jack. :) See, that is what Im saying. A person with this kind of power can make any fate happen at will and make it look like "it just happened that way." It's orchestrating chaos.

The one oversite is that he didnt realize Desmond was linked to Penny Widmore...and maybe that was his ultimate mistake.


Now your using manipulation the same as God-like powers. If Ben has these incredible powers why would he fear anything or anyone. Why would he need a man on the boat. Why would he need Jack to cure him. According to what your saying Ben is nearly omnipitant.

He is manipulative but he is not a Godlike being.

Not god-like...but he knows how to use the island's powers to his advantage.

Anyways...when have we seen him fear anyone?


Now your using manipulation the same as God-like powers. If Ben has these incredible powers why would he fear anything or anyone. Why would he need a man on the boat. Why would he need Jack to cure him. According to what your saying Ben is nearly omnipitant.

He is manipulative but he is not a Godlike being.

After Juliet asked, "What could Ben possibly do?" they cut to the plane splitting in half.
No, I don't think Ben had anything to do with the plane coming down, the whole point of the cut to the plane crash scene was to show that Ben deliberately sent Goodwin to get him away from Juliet, knowing that he could keep him away for as long a she likes and that he might eventually be killed. The looks exchanged by the two women was meant as a reinforcement of that, a "see what you've done" moment.

So far Ben hasn't shown any unearthly powers, in fact he seems to thrive on the opposite, on amassing information and data about people so he knows how to play on their weaknesses.

No, he didn't bring down the plane. But that he so quickly and coldly began to use it for his own purposes, well... that says it all about Ben. To him, it was an opportunity, not a tragedy.

No, he didn't bring down the plane. But that he so quickly and coldly began to use it for his own purposes, well... that says it all about Ben. To him, it was an opportunity, not a tragedy.

Exactly. That's the difference between Ben and Locke, one of them is a scheming weasel the other is genuinely in touch with the island.

Not god-like...but he knows how to use the island's powers to his advantage.

Anyways...when have we seen him fear anyone?


When Locke was going to kill him right in front of everyone. He was freaked and saved his *** with giving off the information.

When Eko first walked into the gun room Ben almost pissed himself.

When Ben and Locke went and saw Jacob.

When Ben was told by Juliet he had to go into Room 22 with Walt.

When Sayid made it known he was going to torture Ben until he died.

Not to mention how upset he was when he wasn't healing as fast as he should have been.

Ben has been afraid numerous times.



Yes he uses the island powers to his own gain but how can you explain the plane crash and him being involved in it if he was miles away at the barricks when it happened? ALso how did he convince Desmond to leave just that day and not any other? HOw did he manage to get Desmond to get lucky enough to just enter the numbers before the world exploded?

Its funny...I bring this up every time we see a weird coincidence that has to do with Ben and people shoot it down. Yet, it keeps coming up again and again...Im not sure how many times we need to see this....

1. Juliet mentions that the only way they would be able to get her husband's stake in her work is if he was hit by a bus.

He's hit by a bus.

2. Ben learns he has a tumor on his spine.

Whoops..theres a spinal surgeon crash landing on the Island.

3. Harper warns Juliet to stay away from Goodwyn because she's afraid that Ben will do something to him.

Goodwyn is thrown on a stake and it's a apparent to Juliet that Ben knew this was going to happen despite the fact he should have not known anything about the people in the tail section at the time he sent Goodwyn to gather the list.

I wouldnt even doubt that Sayid's victim on the golf course was something totally arranged by Ben...and as soon as the guy realized Sayid worked for Ben, he KNEW that Ben had orchestrated this meeting. This is what makes Ben so dangerous and why people want him dead.

Then there is the question as to why Ben would leave such an important hatch to the hands of a bunch of strangers....Sorry, but Ben knows everything about this Island, that is apparent.

Its also the reason Ben is suffering through this whole ordeal with Locke...He knows all of this must happen if his desired outcome is to be achieved.

Even Locke kind of understands this when he shouted, "This isnt the way it's supposed to happen" to Jack at the end of Season 3. He just doesn't completely understand it....


No, I don't think Ben had anything to do with the plane coming down, the whole point of the cut to the plane crash scene was to show that Ben deliberately sent Goodwin to get him away from Juliet, knowing that he could keep him away for as long a she likes and that he might eventually be killed. The looks exchanged by the two women was meant as a reinforcement of that, a "see what you've done" moment.

So far Ben hasn't shown any unearthly powers, in fact he seems to thrive on the opposite, on amassing information and data about people so he knows how to play on their weaknesses.

After Juliet asked, "What could Ben possibly do?" they cut to the plane splitting in half.

Everything that Ben wants happens. He wanted Juliet, so her husband is mysteriously hit by a bus. He needs a spinal surgeon, so he brings Jack through a series of 'coincidences.'

Does Ben know how to mess with the "course" of the universe? To make things happen the way he wants them to?

I think this is what made Harper so nervous. Its also probably what made the golf guy that sayid killed so nervous.

It sure appears that way. This is why I believe Widmore disparately wants control of the island. He's got Penny searching, he was 'nice' to Desmond, the Black Rock book, plus he has tons of money for funding it. I opined earlier that perhaps Widmore is looking for his 'Fountain of Youth' and will turn it into an 'amusement' park for babyboomers. With the time traveling an all, he'd make a fortune if people could live longer than expected.

Its funny...I bring this up every time we see a weird coincidence that has to do with Ben and people shoot it down. Yet, it keeps coming up again and again...Im not sure how many times we need to see this....
I have no doubt that Ben understands everything about the island but I don't think he has any powers in the sense that you're ascribing him with. Jacob maybe, the island itself perhaps, but Ben... I've seen no evidence that he has any powers.

I see him more as an administrator of the island, not someone who is sincerely in touch with it in the same way that Locke, in an uncontrolled way, seems to be. I can imagine Locke harnessing the power of the island in some way, but Ben has been there almost his whole life and still relies of scheming and manipulation.

If there is more to the plane's crash than coincidence (which is a common theme in this show) I don't think Ben's responsible for it.

Just one question, how does Ben know all this? Just look at Jack. How did he get Jack, on the plane? How did Jack's father happen to die in Sydney? Claire, his unknown half sister..... How did Ben know all this before hand, unless, he time traveled like Des, and his constant was Juliet?

We have also seen that Ben is a very good actor when he needs it....


Good actor yes but he was scared in these instances. Simple as this, if he as control over all the island why would he fear death?
100%
Just one question, how does Ben know all this? Just look at Jack. How did he get Jack, on the plane? How did Jack's father happen to die in Sydney? Claire, his unknown half sister..... How did Ben know all this before hand, unless, he time traveled like Des, and his constant was Juliet?


Not going to work. Juliet is only his constant if he knows her in the past and in the present. He has only known her for 3 years. He would be dead.


Also if he can time jump, why does he fear anything?

I think Ben just took the opportunity of the plane crashing to "innocently" get rid of goodwin, without looking like he did it. He is the ultimate opportunist.........

I think you are right on target with this. Ben seems like the kind of person who can take just about ANY event and turn it to benefit him in some way. I think it speaks volumes about Ben's intelligence.

I think people forget that Desmond's past travelled to the future. If you travel backwards from your present, you'd always have your past events as your constant.

Good actor yes but he was scared in these instances. Simple as this, if he as control over all the island why would he fear death?
100%



Not going to work. Juliet is only his constant if he knows her in the past and in the present. He has only known her for 3 years. He would be dead.


Also if he can time jump, why does he fear anything?

But I firmly believe that Ben orchestrated all of the events leading up to that event. I have long believed that Ben made sure that Kelvin got Desmond away from the button at the right time.


It was Desmond's own curiosity that forced him to extricate himself from the hatch though...I dont think Ben had anything to do with it.

Good actor yes but he was scared in these instances. Simple as this, if he as control over all the island why would he fear death?
100%



Not going to work. Juliet is only his constant if he knows her in the past and in the present. He has only known her for 3 years. He would be dead.


Also if he can time jump, why does he fear anything?

Maybe the Island itself is his constant, something he loves and can come back to. He's been there since he was a boy. Time travel, in the Desmond sense could be possible, if the Island is his constant. Maybe that's why he's so intent on keeping the island to his small group of people. And why he'd do anything to keep Widmore away. So many questions.....

Its funny...I bring this up every time we see a weird coincidence that has to do with Ben and people shoot it down. Yet, it keeps coming up again and again...Im not sure how many times we need to see this....

1. Juliet mentions that the only way they would be able to get her husband's stake in her work is if he was hit by a bus.

He's hit by a bus.

2. Ben learns he has a tumor on his spine.

Whoops..theres a spinal surgeon crash landing on the Island.

3. Harper warns Juliet to stay away from Goodwyn because she's afraid that Ben will do something to him.

Goodwyn is thrown on a stake and it's a apparent to Juliet that Ben knew this was going to happen despite the fact he should have not known anything about the people in the tail section at the time he sent Goodwyn to gather the list.

I wouldnt even doubt that Sayid's victim on the golf course was something totally arranged by Ben...and as soon as the guy realized Sayid worked for Ben, he KNEW that Ben had orchestrated this meeting. This is what makes Ben so dangerous and why people want him dead.

Then there is the question as to why Ben would leave such an important hatch to the hands of a bunch of strangers....Sorry, but Ben knows everything about this Island, that is apparent.

Its also the reason Ben is suffering through this whole ordeal with Locke...He knows all of this must happen if his desired outcome is to be achieved.

Even Locke kind of understands this when he shouted, "This isnt the way it's supposed to happen" to Jack at the end of Season 3. He just doesn't completely understand it....


When was it ever even hinted at that Ben knew anything about the numbers, the Swan and the turning of the key?

You have a hatch 30 minutes away from the medical station that his people were using. He knew all about that hatch...is reactions of, "Arent you guys even curious as to what this place is?" in his off-the-cuff manipulative fashion suggests he knew what that place was. Go watch "One of them" again and compare it to what we know now.

Ben isnt stupid. You dont think he wanted Sayid to figure out that he was a fake? Yeah, send of the most inquisitive man to a grave and not expect him to investigate.

He even got Locke to do what he does...kill someone indirectly...

I'll make a time/event line in regards to Ben between when he was captured by Danielle to present.

When was it ever even hinted at that Ben knew anything about the numbers, the Swan and the turning of the key?

You have a hatch 30 minutes away from the medical station that his people were using. He knew all about that hatch...is reactions of, "Arent you guys even curious as to what this place is?" in his off-the-cuff manipulative fashion suggests he knew what that place was. Go watch "One of them" again and compare it to what we know now.

Ben isnt stupid. You dont think he wanted Sayid to figure out that he was a fake? Yeah, send of the most inquisitive man to a grave and not expect him to investigate.

He even got Locke to do what he does...kill someone indirectly...

I don't think Ben knows anything about the Swan or Desmond. Here's the thing, if Ben is after Widmore and Desmond is a direct link why oh why did he not try to convcince Desmond to get him close to Widmore if he could get him of the island?


Also how would he get the Swan info unless he was down there which we have yet to see. The Swan's info was heavily guarded and Ben was a janitor before the purge. I think its more likely that the Swan was the one thing Ben knew nothing about. I mean if Ben knew if the numbers were not pushed the world would end why then would he try to convince Lokce not to push the buttons. Sure Locke wasn't going to stop but Ben could not be 100% sure Locke would not stop pushing the button thus ending the world.

Maybe the Island itself is his constant, something he loves and can come back to. He's been there since he was a boy. Time travel, in the Desmond sense could be possible, if the Island is his constant. Maybe that's why he's so intent on keeping the island to his small group of people. And why he'd do anything to keep Widmore away. So many questions.....Thats a good point. Daniel said "something you really care about." then Desmond asked if a person would work, so this is totaly feasable.

In Expose, We were shown a scene with him and Juliet looking at the Swan from the Pearl... and that was was prior to him being captured and locked up in the Swan.

THATS why he knew about the Swan.

Probably the most revealing thing about the Expose episode.

No doubt the original inhabitants have shown him everything.

I don't think Ben knows anything about the Swan or Desmond. Here's the thing, if Ben is after Widmore and Desmond is a direct link why oh why did he not try to convcince Desmond to get him close to Widmore if he could get him of the island?


Also how would he get the Swan info unless he was down there which we have yet to see. The Swan's info was heavily guarded and Ben was a janitor before the purge. I think its more likely that the Swan was the one thing Ben knew nothing about. I mean if Ben knew if the numbers were not pushed the world would end why then would he try to convince Lokce not to push the buttons. Sure Locke wasn't going to stop but Ben could not be 100% sure Locke would not stop pushing the button thus ending the world.

He knew about the pearl....which had a view of the Swan...which was prior to him being captured.

THATS why he knew about the Swan.

Probably the most revealing thing about the Expose episode.


He knew the swan was there but the question is did he know about the swan and what it was for and what would happen if the button was not pushed and if Desmond di not turn the key?

Im sure if he knew what The Tempest is used for, he'd know about the swan hatch.
Unless he thought it was just an experiment like Locke did. But wouldn't you think it was odd that he'd just let strangers sit in there and press a button? Or perhaps he wanted Kelvin dead....so that Desmond would get to the hatch late to bring down his plane that had his spinal surgeon on it.

I dunno, I just think that this whole idea that someone could "break the rules of the universe" using the Island as a tool seems to fit here. Im sure it will be explained further on.

He knew the swan was there but the question is did he know about the swan and what it was for and what would happen if the button was not pushed and if Desmond di not turn the key?

Ben didn't bring the plane down, he knew the plane would go down, because, like Desmond, he sees the future. That's how he manages to manipulate virtually everyone, that's why he doesn't feel any guilt to kill everyone (the course-correcting universe would have killed them anyway).

Yeah, but what if he kills people prematurely in order to set events in motion...how does the universe course-correct a death? It cant. That might be the only thing that could really change anything.

Look at our Losties...each one of them has had a death in their lives that set them on a course.

Michael: His Wife
Jack: His Father
Sun: Her Lover
Hurley: Tons of people
Kate: Her Father and her Childhood Sweeheart
Claire: Her mother
Juliet: Her Husband.


Locke is sort of the odd man out here...maybe thats why he's different. Maybe Ben attempted to and something stronger than himself prevented it.

If Ben could make it look like Juliet's husband died because it was his fate, why couldn't he do the same to other people in order to achieve certain results?

Ben didn't bring the plane down, he knew the plane would go down, because, like Desmond, he sees the future. That's how he manages to manipulate virtually everyone, that's why he doesn't feel any guilt to kill everyone (the course-correcting universe would have killed them anyway).

Claire: Her mother I could be wrong, but I don't think we know if Claire's mother died yet...

Here's the thing, if Ben did some how make it happen then it means Ben can control time, space, fate, eternity, destiny, the future and so on and so on. If that's the case Ben would be able to cure his own tumor, keep the island safe himself and would be more powerful than EVERY person combined on the face of the earth.

Fate made it happen so the plane would crash.

Well, yes. I think it's pretty evident that fate itself can be controlled through the island. After what seemed like an overt hint in the episode, I'm certainly holding out the possibility that Ben somehow manipulated fate to get a spinal surgeon to the island. It also seemed a bit convenient that Ben's safe held exactly the thing that Locke would want to see, and nothing else. Did Ben mentally time travel to put that there, or what?

You know..fate being controlled through science...now there's a Lost-like theme if I've ever heard one. :)

Well, yes. I think it's pretty evident that fate itself can be controlled through the island. After what seemed like an overt hint in the episode, I'm certainly holding out the possibility that Ben somehow manipulated fate to get a spinal surgeon to the island. It also seemed a bit convenient that Ben's safe held exactly the thing that Locke would want to see, and nothing else. Did Ben mentally time travel to put that there, or what?

Well, yes. I think it's pretty evident that fate itself can be controlled through the island. After what seemed like an overt hint in the episode, I'm certainly holding out the possibility that Ben somehow manipulated fate to get a spinal surgeon to the island. It also seemed a bit convenient that Ben's safe held exactly the thing that Locke would want to see, and nothing else. Did Ben mentally time travel to put that there, or what?


How can fate be controlled from the island.

Do you really think what was in the safe was the only thing Locke wanted to see? YOu don't think he would rather have known what the smoke monster was? Or where Jacob was? Or other secrets of the island? Out of all the info Ben gave Locke, he wanted this info the least. He wants more so to learn ALL the island secrets.


But here's the thing, if Ben can change the course of fate and manipulate it then why does he fear anyone, Widmore included. If he can control time travel then why not just let Widmore find the island and when he arrives confront him and then time travel to right before and kill him.

Ben has yet to do ONE single thing to demonstrate that he can control all aspects of the universe. He manipulates situations when they arise but he is way to vunerable to have the power of a God-like being.

Also if he can time jump, why does he fear anything?

Your CONSCIOUSNESS jumps, not your physical body. He can be killed.

It was Desmond's own curiosity that forced him to extricate himself from the hatch though...I dont think Ben had anything to do with it.

But I believe that Kelvin purposely created the tear in his outfit, made sure that Desmond would see it, and deliberately made it so that Desmond would be curious and follow him. He didn't purposely get killed, but I think Kelvin had instructions from Ben to leave the hatch at the moment and to make sure Desmond followed him, thus bringing down the plane.

He knew the swan was there but the question is did he know about the swan and what it was for and what would happen if the button was not pushed and if Desmond di not turn the key?

Yes. I firmly believe that he was lying lying lying when he was being tortured in the Swan hatch. He knew exaclty what he was doing all along. He lived with DHARMA for his whole early life. And has lived on the island ever since, doing whatever the hell he pleases, go to all the hatches, taking control. There is no WAY he didn't know what the Swan was for.

Ben didn't bring the plane down, he knew the plane would go down, because, like Desmond, he sees the future. That's how he manages to manipulate virtually everyone, that's why he doesn't feel any guilt to kill everyone (the course-correcting universe would have killed them anyway).

Oh, man, that is a FANTASTIC explanation! I can't believe I haven't read that anywhere else or thought of it. heh. Fate was bringing the plane down, he knew it would happen, so he manipulated events to make sure things went his way?...

I could be wrong, but I don't think we know if Claire's mother died yet...

You are correct.

..because Widmore has Abaddon on his side...and Ben knows that things have to happen in a certain order. So he gives Locke information when he is SUPPOSED TO.

Thats the thing that Locke understands about Ben...Ben always seems to know what he needs to do next. Locke would love to have that ability and Ben knows it.

How can fate be controlled from the island.

Do you really think what was in the safe was the only thing Locke wanted to see? YOu don't think he would rather have known what the smoke monster was? Or where Jacob was? Or other secrets of the island? Out of all the info Ben gave Locke, he wanted this info the least. He wants more so to learn ALL the island secrets.


But here's the thing, if Ben can change the course of fate and manipulate it then why does he fear anyone, Widmore included. If he can control time travel then why not just let Widmore find the island and when he arrives confront him and then time travel to right before and kill him.

Ben has yet to do ONE single thing to demonstrate that he can control all aspects of the universe. He manipulates situations when they arise but he is way to vunerable to have the power of a God-like being.

Im sure if he knew what The Tempest is used for, he'd know about the swan hatch.
Unless he thought it was just an experiment like Locke did. But wouldn't you think it was odd that he'd just let strangers sit in there and press a button? Or perhaps he wanted Kelvin dead....so that Desmond would get to the hatch late to bring down his plane that had his spinal surgeon on it.

I dunno, I just think that this whole idea that someone could "break the rules of the universe" using the Island as a tool seems to fit here. Im sure it will be explained further on.


I think you're onto something, man. I like how you've put that...some one who could "break the rules of the universe."

I sorta think people give Ben more power then he actually has.

No, but I do still believe that he was expecting the plane. He needed a spinal surgeon and Ben gets what he wants. Desmond caused the event that made the plane crash.

Ben did not look surprised to see the plane. But it has been hinted at that the island is not easy to find and that you may need to approach it at a certain heading. I think the pilot, who died in the first episode knew where to fly the plane. Ben is very well connected to money and power somehow (i.e. passports and foreign money). He made a comment that everyone works for someone. Who does he work for? Plane crashes happen but are not normally covered up with a second faked crash to divert attention from the real missing plane. Someone with power did not want anyone looking for the real flight 815.I think the real crash of 815 was an accident, that Ben just wanted it to go missing and the rest of the world would assume it had crashed.

Clearly, the writers are seeding the idea that there is a connection between Ben's tumor and Jack's arrival on the island. Yes, the plane was brought down by Desmond. But Ben has a spinal tumor, and two days after learning he has the tumor, the miracle surgeon, Jack Sheppard, happens to be on the plane that crashes on the island. As Ben would say, "Imagine that."

Of course, the writers might be planting a red herring, but I have no reason to believe they are. I have no explanation for the mechanism by which a spinal surgeon crashes on the island, but I do have expectations that we will be eventually shown who, or what, brought Jack to the island. I believe Locke was correct in announcing, "We were all brought here for a reason."

I'm not sure that he brought down the plane but I think he
used it to his advantage and so it as an advantage.

Send him off! Get rid of him! If he returns, he returns. If he
dies, even better!
It's the classic David and Bathsheeba story. Send the lover into battle, sure to die, and stay behind with the woman to woo.

Remember also Mile's conversation with Ben. He knows what Ben "can do". That implies that Ben does have access to some kind of resource (or power) that others don't have, and Miles knows it. Miles himself seems to have an eerie power, so it's not so out of the question that Ben would have one as well.

Maybe Miles meant gassing the island was the thing Ben "can do". Nah, it must be more than that, something that would allow Ben to access a lot of money. At any rate, it's related to the magic box metaphor, Ben is magic box boy.

..because Widmore has Abaddon on his side...and Ben knows that things have to happen in a certain order. So he gives Locke information when he is SUPPOSED TO.

Thats the thing that Locke understands about Ben...Ben always seems to know what he needs to do next. Locke would love to have that ability and Ben knows it.


Your not making sense. Your saying he can control fate and time and space, yet you come back and say he let's stuff happen because it needs to happen. Why would ANYTHING need to happen if he can control fate? It totally contradicts that he is in control of fate.

Either he has no control over fate and thing must happen for a reason or he can control fate and if that's the case nothing NEEDS to happen because Ben can alter whatever is supposed to happen.

If he can control fate and everything then why does he fear anything, why is he upset his people are doubting him, why does anything bad happen to him, why did he flip out when Jack saw the x-ray's if he can just change time and fate and time travel to before Jack saw the x-ray's? To say Ben is the most powerful person in the world, nah, the universe and yet so many things don;t turn out how he wants doesn't fit. Either he has Godlike powers and should fear nothing or anyone or ever be in trouble or he just manipulates EVERY situation presented in front of him to his own gain.

I was just thinking about what it's been like learning about Ben's character. When we were first introduced to him we were wondering, well he def seems sneaky but how powerful could he be. Then we learned how powerful he was among his group and we started wondering, yeah but how evil could he possibly be. Then we had TMBTC with the purge and now we're like, okay well could the party ben's opposing possibly be worse than Ben?

Widmore seems to possess less humanity than Ben even, and he's part of a bigger conglomerate I believe, so that lends even more evil making power to his character. Still, we don't know the extent of Widmore's badguyness yet, we've seen him kicking someone's head in though, I think that was telling.

Also note that Ben was not at all surprised when Juliet told him that a spinal surgeon was on the plane. He made Jack be on that plane.

Wait, I never thought of that! We KNOW Inman wasn't always in the hatch because of Sayid's flashback!

Wow...

Your not making sense. Your saying he can control fate and time and space, yet you come back and say he let's stuff happen because it needs to happen. Why would ANYTHING need to happen if he can control fate? It totally contradicts that he is in control of fate.

Either he has no control over fate and thing must happen for a reason or he can control fate and if that's the case nothing NEEDS to happen because Ben can alter whatever is supposed to happen.

If he can control fate and everything then why does he fear anything, why is he upset his people are doubting him, why does anything bad happen to him, why did he flip out when Jack saw the x-ray's if he can just change time and fate and time travel to before Jack saw the x-ray's? To say Ben is the most powerful person in the world, nah, the universe and yet so many things don;t turn out how he wants doesn't fit. Either he has Godlike powers and should fear nothing or anyone or ever be in trouble or he just manipulates EVERY situation presented in front of him to his own gain.

I don't think Ben can full-on control fate, but he does seem to be able to manipulate it somehow. There may be other fate manipulators that are working against ben, like Jacob for example. Maybe Jacob doesn't like being in the ash encircled shack, and he gave Ben the cancer, but Ben can steer things such that he can counteract Jacob's destiny fudging.

Your CONSCIOUSNESS jumps, not your physical body. He can be killed.



But I believe that Kelvin purposely created the tear in his outfit, made sure that Desmond would see it, and deliberately made it so that Desmond would be curious and follow him. He didn't purposely get killed, but I think Kelvin had instructions from Ben to leave the hatch at the moment and to make sure Desmond followed him, thus bringing down the plane.



Yes. I firmly believe that he was lying lying lying when he was being tortured in the Swan hatch. He knew exaclty what he was doing all along. He lived with DHARMA for his whole early life. And has lived on the island ever since, doing whatever the hell he pleases, go to all the hatches, taking control. There is no WAY he didn't know what the Swan was for.



Oh, man, that is a FANTASTIC explanation! I can't believe I haven't read that anywhere else or thought of it. heh. Fate was bringing the plane down, he knew it would happen, so he manipulated events to make sure things went his way?...



You are correct.


So according to you he knew what the Swan was. Then why would he try to convince Locke not to push the button. If he KNEW if the button wasn't pushed the world would end then why would he pressure Locke not to push it. YOu can say its a mind trick and all but here's the thing, Ben could not be 100% certain that Locke would always push the button. He may have been pretty sure but not 100% sure. So in that case why would he even put any doubt in Locke's head if he knew the world would end if the button wasn't pushed. I mean time travel is only through the mind and can't really do that if the world is destroyed can you?

Also if he knew what would happen if he turned the key why oh why would he just not send one of his men down there to kill Kelvin and Desmond and turn the key thus ending the greatest threat to his life and the island's life and his existance?

To further point to that Ben knew nothing about the Swan hatch why when he was on the dock in LTDA and the sky went purple did he look like he had no clue as to what was going on. Take into account he was not looking at anyone. He was looking more towards the camera. Unless you are saying Ben knows he is a tv charecter and he is lying to us. Seems like a bit of a stretch the guy would act like he knew nothing was going on when no one was looking at him.

Another point Ben could not be involved in the plane crash. As to Kelvin, if he was instructed by Ben to set everything up so the button would not be pushed and the plane was to crash, here is the question, why? I mean Desmond was literally seconds, like 10 seconds away from the world ending. Your going to tell me Ben put that much faith in Desmond and Kelvin that if they took even 10 seconds longer the earth would be destroyed? Again he can't travel back and fix his mistakes if the whole earth is gone. There are just to many variables in this equation for it to work out exactly like it did but also be seconds away from total annihilation. EVerything had to work perfectly, including Kelvin's death for the earth not to be destroyed. Also a final point about Kelvin, if Ben was in touch with him why not just kill Desmond and not push the button until the plane crash? Why go though all this when Kelvin could have shot Desmond and done it the easy way. Again no explination for that. Or why for 3 years he and Desmond stayed there together instead of killing him and making the plan work perfectly. Again they left to many variables of this plan to work out so perfectly.

Finally Ben did live with Dharma his whole life but he was a janitor. In what company have you ever know that the owners reveal their greatest secrets to a janitor? The Swan and Pearl and Kelvin show that the Swan was keep under tight security so that the info would not be known on the island. So much so that when food drops happened the Swan would lock down so no one could get in our out at that time.
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I don't think Ben can full-on control fate, but he does seem to be able to manipulate it somehow. There may be other fate manipulators that are working against ben, like Jacob for example. Maybe Jacob doesn't like being in the ash encircled shack, and he gave Ben the cancer, but Ben can steer things such that he can counteract Jacob's destiny fudging.


But Ben went and met him. If Jacob is after Ben, why not kill him there Also its evident Jacob can do what he wants because he made the cabin appear to Hurley in the middle of the jungle. SO if Jacob is against Ben why not kill him in the cabin when Locke was there?


Ok but what evidence is there at all to say that Ben can manipulate fate. People are saying this idea and all but has there every Ben anything that we can say shows this?

Ben is so powerful because he knows how to use the island's time-shifting properties to learn what happens in the FUTURE. Things move slower on the island than in the real world (20 minute helicopter trip takes a perceived day on the island). He then orchestrates things on and off the island to take advantage of the situations that present themselves on the island at a later date.

Think about it. Radio ransmissions to and from the island are instantaneous, yet people's reality on the island is delayed relative to the outside world. Ben radios one of his cronies on the outside and says: What's happening NOW. Crony answers that "A, B, and C" are approaching the island or happening elsewhere. Ben now has a signifiantly larger amount of time than "real time" to set things in motion to take full advantage of the situation. Being a master sociopath is what makes him exceptional at his work.

I agree he didn't crash the plane, but he sure as hell knew about it coming his way. He could have had a full day's notice or more of 815's crash.
Now how he knew that Goodwin would die on the island is a REALLY good question.

Maybe ben had that weird time jump power that desmond had but he has manaaged to control it, or he might even have flash forwards.

But Ben went and met him. If Jacob is after Ben, why not kill him there Also its evident Jacob can do what he wants because he made the cabin appear to Hurley in the middle of the jungle. SO if Jacob is against Ben why not kill him in the cabin when Locke was there?


Ok but what evidence is there at all to say that Ben can manipulate fate. People are saying this idea and all but has there every Ben anything that we can say shows this?

You're right Havoc, we don't have a definitive reason to believe that Ben can manipulate fate, just clues that might suggest so. In last night's episode Juliet tells Ben that she knows that he knew that Goodwin would be killed. Juliet seems to think he knew, not that he just hoped. Ben's talk of the magic box, and the fact that Jack appeared miraculously to fix him, Miles' revelation that Ben can do things, they are fair enough clues to build speculation on. Of course, that's all this is, delicious speculation.

As to why Jacob doesn't just destroy Ben completely, I don't know either. It does seem to be the obvious question. Maybe Jacob still needs Ben for something, dunno. There are so many variables, and because we don't know it all we can't say definitively what's going on, but it's all valid to guess about.

has anyone hard that theory that the Island is inside the earth, like another planet in the centre that only touches our world at certain points?
well Maybe the Swan station magnet was like the earths Magnetic core, its a bbit of a shaky thought but it nakes some sense.

I don't think Ben brought the plane down, but he did because of the time shift knew it was going to crash. I think that gave him enough time to get all the info he needed on the passengers. Time to get the lists together.
Remember all the money and passports that were found in that room? I think Ben spends plenty of time off the island, but can come and go with out ever being noticed because of the time differences.

I don't think he knew Goodwin was going to get killed. The longer he kept Goodwin with the tailies the longer he was away from Juliette. Goodwin getting killed was nothing more then an added perk for Ben in the end.

Juliette blamed him because he could have brought Goddwin back, but refused to.

:biggrin: has anyone hard that theory that the Island is inside the earth, like another planet in the centre that only touches our world at certain points?
well Maybe the Swan station magnet was like the earths Magnetic core, its a bbit of a shaky thought but it nakes some sense.


Isn't that what middle earth is?

Wait, Charlie was also a hobbit. O-M-G:biggrin:
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I don't think Ben brought the plane down, but he did because of the time shift knew it was going to crash. I think that gave him enough time to get all the info he needed on the passengers. Time to get the lists together.
Remember all the money and passports that were found in that room? I think Ben spends plenty of time off the island, but can come and go with out ever being noticed because of the time differences.

I don't think he knew Goodwin was going to get killed. The longer he kept Goodwin with the tailies the longer he was away from Juliette. Goodwin getting killed was nothing more then an added perk for Ben in the end.

Juliette blamed him because he could have brought Goddwin back, but refused to.

Totally agree about Goodwin. Alos add to the fact that days/a week earlier Juliet makes mention that they killed Ethan. So its resonable to determine that the longer Goodwin was with the Talies he would be found out and killed just like they did to Ethan in the fuselage part.

Here's the crux of the situation

This terrible episode did have some info for us

The point of Goodwin dying was this Idea of Ben INDIRECTLY accomplishing things

We have seen this many times. Locke blowing up the sub was the episode when it was really pushed---that Ben weaves events towards his purpose

But there was also a supernatural element. It has been hinted at---so much so that they used the audiences expectations in the dialog. Remember when Ben said I"ll have to show you---well, many people were waiting for Ben to disappear or something. Then after that Locke even says your "not gonna disappear".(another nod to audience expectations)

We also have Juliet saying that she believed Ben wanted her to kill them.---as if he was actually embodied within Harper. Remember, she used his exact words and emphasis when saying "everyone is going to die" and even Miles exact words that "he's exactly where he wants to be"

Miles knows Ben can do something really freaky. Knowing money is useless on the Island--he asks for it---which mean Ben can leaves and come right back or can make someone do it..

Now, when Harper appeared and disappeared there were obvious noises as if something supernatural was happening. So, transportation of some kind is happening here or manifestations of some kind

So saying Desmond brough the plane down is like saying Anna killed Goodwin---sure she did..but Ben was the puppet master. We know the Plane brought people on the list to the Island for a reason so we're looking at the forces of destiny and the Means destiny uses to accomplish things.

:biggrin:


Isn't that what middle earth is?

Wait, Charlie was also a hobbit. O-M-G:biggrin:
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Totally agree about Goodwin. Alos add to the fact that days/a week earlier Juliet makes mention that they killed Ethan. So its resonable to determine that the longer Goodwin was with the Talies he would be found out and killed just like they did to Ethan in the fuselage part.

True about Ethan having been killed, but Ben seems so sure that Goodwin's assignment will soon be over when he mentions it to Juliet at dinner. It's just a guess, but I think he knows that Goodwie is going down. I think Ben is synced into the whispers, and I remember that the whispers seemed to know that Ana was going to kill Shannon. Remember the whispers seemed to be concerned about Ben's situation when he was being had captive by the Losties in the hatch? They seemed to be instructing Ben, not to panic, etc. Why couldn't Ben be using those whispers to summon Harper, or get hipped to Goodwin's imminent death by Ana-Lucia.

Whispers transcripts from Ben's interrogation by Sayid:

{henry: what}
{sayid: this balloon that brought you here with your wife}

7. go ahead and do it (8.4 sec)

8. might have heard from him / my eyes hurt (9.6 sec)

{henry: what do you want to know}

9. is he gonna give it away (11.20 sec)

10. he is interrogating him(12.247 sec)

{sayid: everything}

11. calmly begin speaking and act completely... (13.6 sec) (13.85)

12. so it's okay... (15.50)

13. we can you get through this ordeal (http://www.doorway815.com/lostaudio/s2e14/13we-can-get-through-this-ordeal.mp3) (15.88)

14. we are minding the radio (17.833)

Perhaps these whispers let ben know what's going on in the outside world, or at others points on the island, maybe even back or forth through time.

No way was Ben responsible for the plane crash. No way. It has been established that Desmond did it by accident. Also its near impossible to say Ben orchastrated the entire thing. It was fate that Desmond followed Kelvin out of the hatch this time and no other time. It was fate there fight took this long exaclty and he accidently killed Kelvin. It was fate he was able to push the code in at all considering the clock was past zero.

Here's the thing, if Ben did some how make it happen then it means Ben can control time, space, fate, eternity, destiny, the future and so on and so on. If that's the case Ben would be able to cure his own tumor, keep the island safe himself and would be more powerful than EVERY person combined on the face of the earth.

Fate made it happen so the plane would crash.
It's too coincidental for all of this to just be fate.

It's too coincidental for all of this to just be fate.


So that couldn't be fate and its seems logical that Ben made a list and everyone on the list just happened to survive a mid air seperation of the plane and Ben knew they would all survive miles above the ground? Last I checked not many people can survive a plane crash some hundread miles in the air withouth fate jumping in. Although everyone here is saying Ben knew and could decide who would survive the crash and who wouldn't? How does that even register at all?

Here's the crux of the situation


Now, when Harper appeared and disappeared there were obvious noises as if something supernatural was happening. So, transportation of some kind is happening here or manifestations of some kind


When Echo and Charlie were looking for the plane that had eckos brother in, the black smoke floats in front of ecko, the camera goes through the smoke and you can see flashing images of people, later on in the series ecko meets his brother and is killed, by the Smoke?
Anyway maybe the smoke is controlled by ben, or even Jacob, and it can take the shape of people it has seen or killed, maybe thats how it embodied eckos brother and harper.

{quote} Everything that Ben wants happens{/quote]

this is so weird to me as Mike Emerson had exact that character in X Files!

...

all i can truely say is "think of it as a box"

It also seemed a bit convenient that Ben's safe held exactly the thing that Locke would want to see, and nothing else. Did Ben mentally time travel to put that there, or what?What, you think Ben only has one safe? Did you see how many pictures that man has hanging on his walls?

I don't think Ben can control anything. I think he can see into the future, just the same way as Desmond gets his flash-forwards (but maybe just more often).

Then, knowing what is going to happen, he will make the most of these events by manipulating everyone else.

We got a big clue in last week's episode when he pretty much acknowledged to Juliet that he knew Goodwin was going to die. I think the next Ben-Centric episode will show him experience these flash-forwards and explaining a lot more.

This would also explain how Harper knew what Ben wanted: He told her this in the past, having already known the events that would take place.

What about the concept of "course correction"? If someone cheated death because of knowledge of future events...maybe the the plane crash was several course corrections at once ??????

Ben sets a chain of events in motion knowing what the outcome will be. This still relies on cause and effect...like a giant rube goldberg machine.

Think of it this way...Ben has a tumor...

So someone out there did something to Desmond to put him on this course...maybe it was the monk? You think? The Monk is probably working for Ben. We already know the monk is friends with Mrs. Hawking.

So the Monk waits and waits and at just the right time, BOOM! Fires Desmond.

Now the pinball has been launched, the course of Desmond has been determined that firing Desmond at this exact moment will cause him to:

Meet Penny...wow, coincidence that her father is Mr Widmore...

Mr. Widmore tells Desmond NO...he cannot marry his daughter because he is not worthy...but at the same time suddenly has this race that Desmond can enter...

and guess what, WHAM! Here comes Libby who just happens to have a boat (I'm assuming her husband was Dave, the guy that Hurley killed...wow, isn't that cool. Libby suddenly has this boat she can no longer use because her husband was killed by one of the losties....) Go figure.

So Desmond sails off and wouldn't you know it...he's crash landed on this Island that his future father-in-law just happens to be looking for.

He's now in place to help Ben to snare his spinal surgeon...

YEARS go by now....waiting, just for that right moment when the plan will cross and Desmond will be far enough from the hatch so that the reactor will generate just enough electromagnatism to bring down a plane.

Ben is a very patient man...and this Island has a way to send someones consciousness back in time that could explain how some of this seems awfully engineered.

Remember the brainwashing video that seemed to say there is no chaos, everything happens for a reason, there is order...and Ben seems to have learned how to manipulate that to his benefit.

Your not making sense. Your saying he can control fate and time and space, yet you come back and say he let's stuff happen because it needs to happen. Why would ANYTHING need to happen if he can control fate? It totally contradicts that he is in control of fate.

Either he has no control over fate and thing must happen for a reason or he can control fate and if that's the case nothing NEEDS to happen because Ben can alter whatever is supposed to happen.

If he can control fate and everything then why does he fear anything, why is he upset his people are doubting him, why does anything bad happen to him, why did he flip out when Jack saw the x-ray's if he can just change time and fate and time travel to before Jack saw the x-ray's? To say Ben is the most powerful person in the world, nah, the universe and yet so many things don;t turn out how he wants doesn't fit. Either he has Godlike powers and should fear nothing or anyone or ever be in trouble or he just manipulates EVERY situation presented in front of him to his own gain.

Well, we know the whispers can tell the future from episode 16 of the first season, "Outlaws" through Sawyer's encounter with the wild boar....

[Shot of Sawyer waking up on the island. He hears boar sounds in his tent. He hits it with a metal pipe, and goes running after it. Then he hears the whispers. We can hear the last line of the whispers : It'll come back around.]

... and later...

[Shot of Sawyer in the jungle. He sees his tarp, grabs it, and starts walking back to camp when he hears the whispers again: It'll come back around. Then he hears the boar running toward him. The boar knocks Sawyer over.]


This, to me, explains a lot. If the whispers can tell what's going to happen, and Ben can hear the whispers, then he's getting all kinds of insider information.

The problem I have with the electro-magnet being the soul reason for the crash is the fact that the plane crashed minutes after the alarm sounded and the magnet kicked on. The log is what Desmond used to determine the approximate time of the crash cross-referenced with when the machine went off. But, before that, we know from when they found the cockpit that they were already WAY off course. It makes sense to me that the plane was deliberately flown to the island. Maybe having the electro-magnet kick on at a certain point would then pull the plane down and finish the job, but they would have had to have first flown near the island. If not, then the magnet probably would have pulled in more than just that one plane if it had been responsible for pulling them so far off course.

I think Ben orchestrated it somehow. What finally convinced me was the LOST: Past, Present, and Future recap episode. Ben narrated it, and he emphasized at least three times what a great coincidence it was that all of these things happened. Which suggests that all of the coincidences are really no such thing.

But I believe that Kelvin purposely created the tear in his outfit, made sure that Desmond would see it, and deliberately made it so that Desmond would be curious and follow him. He didn't purposely get killed, but I think Kelvin had instructions from Ben to leave the hatch at the moment and to make sure Desmond followed him, thus bringing down the plane.


THANK YOU! I'm like, did everyone forget that the whole reason Desmond followed Kelvin was because he saw a rip in the suit that he'd not seen before? The whole suit thing was a ruse to BEGIN with and I'm pretty sure that it was Ben's ruse. Maybe he only wanted Jack on that plane. Maybe he manipulated events (through purely NON paranormal means, in my opinion) so that some of the others were on there, too, like Sayid and Walt. And maybe he made Kelvin rip the suit to draw Desmond out so that he could get the plane on the island.

Juliet is only his constant if he knows her in the past and in the present. He has only known her for 3 years. He would be dead.

I think Ben's constant are the "Ben and Annie" models that Annie carved and gave to him. Similarly, Kate's constant is the model plane that she would break into a bank for.
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But here's the thing, if Ben can change the course of fate and manipulate it then why does he fear anyone, Widmore included. If he can control time travel then why not just let Widmore find the island and when he arrives confront him and then time travel to right before and kill him.

Ben has yet to do ONE single thing to demonstrate that he can control all aspects of the universe. He manipulates situations when they arise but he is way to vunerable to have the power of a God-like being.
It's not a question of controlling the universe: it's more a matter of being a able to see what's just around the corner in the future, and adjust his actions accordingly to make the most of what fate has to offer.

Kind of like "spider-sense".
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To further point to that Ben knew nothing about the Swan hatch why when he was on the dock in LTDA and the sky went purple did he look like he had no clue as to what was going on. Take into account he was not looking at anyone. He was looking more towards the camera. Unless you are saying Ben knows he is a tv charecter and he is lying to us. Seems like a bit of a stretch the guy would act like he knew nothing was going on when no one was looking at him.

I totally disagree. Everybody except Ben looked shocked when the loud sound occurred and the sky went purple.

Ben didn't seem the least bit surprised.

I wish people would stop saying Ben knew nothing about the swan hatch. He looked directly into it from the Pearl prior to getting captured by the Losties.

I think Ben's constant are the "Ben and Annie" models that Annie carved and gave to him. Similarly, Kate's constant is the model plane that she would break into a bank for.
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It's not a question of controlling the universe: it's more a matter of being a able to see what's just around the corner in the future, and adjust his actions accordingly to make the most of what fate has to offer.

Kind of like "spider-sense".
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I totally disagree. Everybody except Ben looked shocked when the loud sound occurred and the sky went purple.

Ben didn't seem the least bit surprised.

Yes he most certainly did (IMO)

How about the idea that Ben wasn't responsible for the plane crash but he knew it was going to happen.

Ben himself can be time shifting and knowing him, he is a master of it and has a good understanding of course correction. He probably has a million constants and He knows how things work better than we do.

He has probably lived this course of events many times and knows what he needs todo to cause events to happen. The climax of this show will be when this iteration changes and Ben is finally killed....And he will be the man in the coffin.

How can fate be controlled from the island.
Mentally. Remember how he described the island as a "magic box" to Locke. That whatever you imagine would become reality. Of course, you have to have a certain gift to be able to do it, and Locke and Ben both have that gift. Ben imagined himself up a spinal surgeon, and fate took care of the rest.

Do you really think what was in the safe was the only thing Locke wanted to see? YOu don't think he would rather have known what the smoke monster was? Or where Jacob was? Or other secrets of the island? Out of all the info Ben gave Locke, he wanted this info the least. He wants more so to learn ALL the island secrets.
Exactly. What was in the safe was exactly what was the most beneficial for BEN. A secret to pacify Locke, but not one that would be directly harmful to Ben, such as a any information on the others, or Jacob, or anything else that Locke could use to gain power over the island.

But here's the thing, if Ben can change the course of fate and manipulate it then why does he fear anyone, Widmore included. If he can control time travel then why not just let Widmore find the island and when he arrives confront him and then time travel to right before and kill him.

Ben has yet to do ONE single thing to demonstrate that he can control all aspects of the universe. He manipulates situations when they arise but he is way to vunerable to have the power of a God-like being
I don't think anyone is suggesting that Ben can control all aspects of the universe. I'm suggesting he can manipulate fate in certain ways, and that that is why control of the island is so important. The exact limits to the power of the island, we obviously don't know.

Just one question, how does Ben know all this? Just look at Jack. How did he get Jack, on the plane? How did Jack's father happen to die in Sydney? Claire, his unknown half sister..... How did Ben know all this before hand, unless, he time traveled like Des, and his constant was Juliet?


I've been saying this since The Constant!!!
He has tons of passports, yet no way to fly anywhere in the world, seemingly in a blink of an eye! The others seem to be able to know every little detail about everyone's past.......including the exact minute these events take place! I believe Ben uses this time travel thing to his advantage in a big big way!

Ben certainly didn't directly bring the plane down, I don't think he consciously brought it down. Perhaps in some sub-conscious way he *needed* a spinal surgeon, he needed a way to remove the tumour - and the fates/island brought the plane to him.

The island gives certain people what they want, whether they consciously want it or not.

This can also be attributed to Goodwins death. Ben wasn't directly involved, but it was something he wanted, whether consciously or not.

I know they gave a difinitive answer for the plane crash but I feel like on some level someone is trying to tell us there is something bigger behind it. Whether or not it is Ben, I am not sure of but it could be.

I hate always having this attitude when I don't have time to look things up but we will have to wait and see.

I have never believed that Ben himself has some kind of special 'powers'. He is jusst a very good manipulator. BUT, I do suspect he might have known a couple of things that were gonna happen in the future. But not because he mind time traveled or whatever, but because Jacob told him. I think Jacob is the one who, during the Incident, mind time traveled to the future. There he 'met' the losties and gathered a couple of important names, who ended up on his infamous list.
If this is true, that might explain HOW he might have been expecting Flight 815 to crash on the island. And, as far as the lists he needed Goodwin and Ethan to make, perhpas he was just comparing notes. He just wanted to make sure what Jacob told him was indeed accurate...

If we believe that Jacob is gonna interact with the losties sometime in the near future, perhaps that will happen AFTER the Oceanic 6 leaves the island. So perhaps that is why Jack, Kate and Sayid, according to Mikahil, were NOT on the list. Jacob never met them when he mind time traveled to the future.
Now, as far as Locke, well...Ben might have been lying when he told the others that Locke was not on the list. He might very well be on Jacob's list. After all, he seems to be the best candidate to 'help' him....