Did a time traveller tell him? Is he a time traveller from the island who got "stuck" off the island and now is trying to get back? Maybe that is how he got rich? He was on the island and traveled back in time and then never time traveled back. He had knowledge of the future and made a fortune like Biff in BTTF2. Now he wants to find the island in hopes he can use it to control the world???

maybe from the blackrock diary he purchased at the auction?
coupled with the anomaly Penny's people traced? Widmore was maybe tracking Penny's progress

It seems that we know now where Naomi obtained the picture of Penny & Desmond.

I think that from the constant he maybe of found out about it from the black rock book he bought in the auction.

ben was probably telling the truth in that he wants to exploit the island powers to "cure people" and get richer.

But not only does he know about the Island but he obviously knows about Ben and what he did. He wouldn't have gotten that info from the Black Rock journal. Unless Frank, Naomi, Charlotte and Miles are getting their information elsewhere...

I don't think Naomi got the picture from Widmore himself. I think Naomi and others on the boat, including Minkowski, actually defied orders and talked to Penny. I think Naomi was truthful when she said she was looking for Desmond. The other freighties found out, and tore out all the comm gear.

I think it's pretty obvious that the implication is that Widmore found out about the island via the diary. It's a pretty uncoincidental location for Desmond seeking Widmore out at the place and time that he was buying the Black Rock journal, only to be revealed as the man behind the freighter this week.

I don't think Naomi got the picture from Widmore himself. I think Naomi and others on the boat, including Minkowski, actually defied orders and talked to Penny. I think Naomi was truthful when she said she was looking for Desmond. The other freighties found out, and tore out all the comm gear.

Well, we only know for sure that Minkowski spoke to Penny and only one time. I really doubt Naomi was looking for Des. I think Widmore gave her that picture and told her what she would need to know so she would have a way to get close to Des and then , through him, Ben. Obviously Widmore doesn't know exactly what has been happening on the Island so Naomi would have been given various bits of information so she would be prepared for unexpected situations. It seems that the rest of our freighties were not given all the information that she had though.

I think that back in the 1980s when Alvar Hanso was building the Dharma crew and putting constructs on the island, he contracted some of the work out to Widmore Industries. When one of Widmore's men told him about the mysic powers of the island, he wanted to control it for himself.

At this point, Widmore knew about the island but not how to get there. In 1996 Charles Widmore bought the diary of Magnus Hanso, and it contained the secrets to get to the island. Widmore has used several methods to try to find the island in the past, like a fake boat race and a man named Henry Gale in a Widmore manufactured hot air balloon. Now, he may have gotten a little closer wiht his crew on the freighter.

In the Lost Experience, it was stated, at least in the LOST novel "Bad Twin" that Widmore and Hanso were on the boards of each other's companies/foundations, so they definitely knew each other. But Alvar kept the location of the Island to himself and DHARMA. I'm assuming Widmore heard about this Island through their business relationship but didn't know where to find it which is why he went after the diary.

He bought the log book 8 years ago,so it couldn't have been very specific.

His daughter however,found it more recently,via her guys in the Arctic.It's possible that he got this info from her(either directly or indirectly)

What I want to know is who told Widmore about the Black Rock diary? It might be Alvar Hanso but wouldn't he want to keep it for himself to keep the Dharma incident a secret? Perhaps Widmore found out about Hanso's plan and went for the diary for himself, for his own reasons.

I wondered too theredtoad. Not too sure I like the Hanso theory - it's probably the right one but not as interesting as one of a dozen others. I wonder if Desmond didn't tell Penny himself in one of his time travels - that the answer to his location would be in the journal. That might be how Penny knew where to look for him. I think more and more that Penny and Desmond are the key to the whole island mystery - the "constant" in a sea of shifting realities.

I'd love to see what's in that journal!

Could it be Hanso though? How do you think Dharma found out about the island in the first place? Perhaps he at one time had possession of the diary then lost it? I could see how he would want to get back at Ben for what he did to the Dharma folk, perhaps that's why Ben might be lying to Locke about Widmore's intentions to exploit the island for its properties.

All the video proves is that Charles Widmore once beat up some guy in a deserted location. We have no idea who caught the moment on tape, or why Ben has the tape now.

We don't know that Widmore knows about the island.

We can speculate that he MIGHT be looking for it based on the diary he purchased at the auction. We know that Penny knows how to contact the boat off shore, but we don't know for certain that Widmore sent the boat out there.

Ben did say "I recorded over it", maybe implying he really did have someone spy on Widmore. Maybe the same culprit that was behind "Juliet's sister" video.

I suspect that after the purge occured, Alvar Hanso had very little money left to go back to the island and eliminate Ben and continue the research to change the Valenzetti equation. This might be why he had to auction off something as valuable as the diary of his long lost ancestor, Magnus Hanso.

Windmore probably caught wind of the islands secrets when he worked with Hanso to form the DHARMA group. Since that time, he had been searching for its location. When he purchased the diary in 1996, he got his first clue as to its location. He sent Henry Gail to the island in a hot aired balloon and he sent Desmond there in the boat race. Knowing that both of them diappeared close to a specific location, he knew where to bring the freighter.

Penny has been probing Widmore's men all along, passing out Desmond's picture and asking questions, and that is how she managed to find the frequency needed to talk to Charlie, but she hasn't gotten enough information to actually find the island. Since everyone on the freighter seems to know so much about Ben and the purge, it seems logical that some of Hanso's men ended up going to work for Widmore after it. This is why Widmore knows so much about the island and it could be his source to key information used to locate the island.

Widmore just tells his men to ignore his daughters calls on that specific frequency. After the looking glass station was shut off and Charlie talked to Penny, Widmore had all he needed to find the island, since it was no longer "cloaked" by the signal coming from the looking glass. The fact that Naomi got to the island before any of this tells me that she was not actually working for Widmore, but perhaps for the island itself.

I still wonder if Widmore doesn't have some previous connection with the island. I keep thinking he has already been there and is now trying to figure out how to get back.

I honestly have absolutely nothing to add to this thread, other than that I have gathered a wealth of information from it.

Thanks so much guys... I am always astounded by the distinct and diverse theories on this site.

He found out from Michael and Walt. I bet we'll find some strange coindences brought them all together when Michael and Walt returned.

I'm going with the idea that Widmore was connected with Dharma somehow.

He found out from Michael and Walt. I bet we'll find some strange coindences brought them all together when Michael and Walt returned.
He was onto the Island long before Michael and Walt were in the picture. He bought the Black Rock Diary 8 years ago so he was already looking way back then.

"with enough money, you can find anyone!"...or anything I suppose.

Well, we only know for sure that Minkowski spoke to Penny and only one time. I really doubt Naomi was looking for Des. I think Widmore gave her that picture and told her what she would need to know so she would have a way to get close to Des and then , through him, Ben. Obviously Widmore doesn't know exactly what has been happening on the Island so Naomi would have been given various bits of information so she would be prepared for unexpected situations. It seems that the rest of our freighties were not given all the information that she had though.

I believe Widmore got Libby to con Des into taking the boat. Libby works for Widmore. Widmore put a homing beacon on the boat and sent Desmond toward the Island or Vortex in hopes of Desmond landing there. Once there Widmore hoped to find the Island and I believe Penny found out about her father's plan. Penny sent a team of her own to find Des. OR Penny is in on it with her Dad. All this tells me that Widmore lost track of the Island by 1996 and was trying to find it. How can we lose an Island?
Daniel knew how to get on and off the Island. Is it because of Desmond's boat or Jin's watches?

What I am wondering is if we will ever see a Paik connection to Widmore that I had anticipated last season. If somehow Paik is involved with this island expedition.

I believe Widmore got Libby to con Des into taking the boat. Libby works for Widmore. Widmore put a homing beacon on the boat and sent Desmond toward the Island or Vortex in hopes of Desmond landing there. Once there Widmore hoped to find the Island and I believe Penny found out about her father's plan. Penny sent a team of her own to find Des. OR Penny is in on it with her Dad. All this tells me that Widmore lost track of the Island by 1996 and was trying to find it. How can we lose an Island?
Daniel knew how to get on and off the Island. Is it because of Desmond's boat or Jin's watches?
But how did Widmore get on track about the island in the first place?

But how did Widmore get on track about the island in the first place?

Widmore, I believe, is part of Dharma. Who got Dharma started? Hanso Foundation. How did Hanso Foundation first find the Island? According to another post, Hanso has known for several years. Lostpedia is a good place to research.

First, the person who filmed Juliet's sister (Rachel) was Richard Alpert, and RIchard has been on the island since then, so I doubt it was Richard who filmed Widmore.

Second, this is my speculation on Widmore's island involvement:
Dharma Initiative was founded in 1970. Charles Widmore, who is in his 60's in 2004, was in his late 20's then. Hanso placed him in charge of his pharmaceutical research. Hanso would give him new substances (say, medusa spider venom), which Widmore's team would turn into new drugs. This made Widmore fantastically wealthy, but Hanso would never tell Widmore where he got the materials.

After Ben destroyed Dharma in 1987, Hanso Foundation began to fall apart. Widmore spun off Widmore Pharmaceuticals but he continued to investigate the source of Hanso's pharmacopeia. In 1996, he got a hold of the Black Rock first mate's journal and realizes the island is the source of those drugs (and so much more). Later, through corporate espionage, he learns about Ben's betrayal of Dharma.

Widmore embarks on a series of schemes to discover the island. He knows that ships are sucked into the island if they venture too close. He sponsors a round-the-world race that requires the racers to 1) place GPS trackers in the boat and 2) will take them in the vicinity of where the island is supposed to be. (I don't think Libby is employed by Widmore -- it's unnecessary for the plot -- but it's not out of the question.)

In 2001, Desmond is sucked into the vortex, and Widmore sends ships into the last known coordinates of Desmond's ship. Widmore sends the Christiane I to find the Black Rock and ends up finding the faked Oceanic 815. He sends out hot air balloons (including Henry Gale). He keeps a freighter searching the area. Naomi manages to land and re-open communications. Now he has a chance to take and exploit the island. But he'll have to take out Ben and the Others... and probably eliminate any and all witnesses.

I think Widmore's known about the island for a looong time since he's been in contact (somewhat at least) with the Monk that was in the picture with Ms. Hawking like 10+ years ago. I think he may have heard whispering about the island through someone in the Hanso family or maybe even Paik and was determined to research it. So eventually he found generally where it was, sent her daughters boyfriend whom he hates on a "boat race" and that was a win-win for Widmore.

Juliet made contact with Widmore after Goodwin was killed. She's been passing along information to him, thus the map and the information. This was in exchange for freedom once he found the Island.

If the Island is behind off-island time, maybe Juliet mentioned Desmond and somehow Widmore took advantage of the fact that Desmond was going to end up on the Island eventually...or something like that. ;)

I think this has to do with what she told Jack about knowing too much could be dangerous.

If she was with Widmore, why did she have a fist fight with Widmore's agents -- Daniel and Charlotte?

Because, when you are dealing with Ben you never know whether you are doing what he wants. She even kind of said that in the episode.

If she was with Widmore, why did she have a fist fight with Widmore's agents -- Daniel and Charlotte?

But if she's working for Widmore then, regardless of what Ben wants, she should be working towards what Widmore wants.

I think that back in the 1980s when Alvar Hanso was building the Dharma crew and putting constructs on the island, he contracted some of the work out to Widmore Industries. When one of Widmore's men told him about the mysic powers of the island, he wanted to control it for himself.

At this point, Widmore knew about the island but not how to get there. In 1996 Charles Widmore bought the diary of Magnus Hanso, and it contained the secrets to get to the island. Widmore has used several methods to try to find the island in the past, like a fake boat race and a man named Henry Gale in a Widmore manufactured hot air balloon. Now, he may have gotten a little closer wiht his crew on the freighter.

Yes, I think thatis how it will eventually play out..or something very similiar. I also think he had a tracking device of some kind on Desmond's boat. Anybody recall how Desmond got his boat? Same for the balloon.

Des got the boat from Libby, which has led people to suspect that Libby works for Widmore. She might, but I think it wouldn't be unusual for the race to require every boat to be equipped with a GPS locator, which would be the easier explanation.

Des got the boat from Libby, which has led people to suspect that Libby works for Widmore. She might, but I think it wouldn't be unusual for the race to require every boat to be equipped with a GPS locator, which would be the easier explanation.

The boat was two fold: 1) Get Des away from Penny 2) Put the navigational equipment off by such and such degrees so Des will get LOST. I'm guessing at the locator beacon Widmore put on just in case Des drifted onto the Island.

Because, when you are dealing with Ben you never know whether you are doing what he wants. She even kind of said that in the episode.

I personally do not find that response compelling, Your theory in my opinion is unsupported by the evidence.*


*Disclaimer - In no way am I insulting anything, certainly not you as a person, or baiting or goading you into attacking me. I stated my opinion on your argument.

Juliet made contact with Widmore after Goodwin was killed. She's been passing along information to him, thus the map and the information. This was in exchange for freedom once he found the Island.

If the Island is behind off-island time, maybe Juliet mentioned Desmond and somehow Widmore took advantage of the fact that Desmond was going to end up on the Island eventually...or something like that. ;)

I think this has to do with what she told Jack about knowing too much could be dangerous.

Juliet is smart. Making friends with Widmore is not something she would do. Nor Kate, as some have suggested. Juliet had no opportunity to make contact, Ben kept tapes of everyone... remember the cameras? I totally agree that Juliet is trying to get off the Island. She was planning on leaving with Jack in the sub, until Locke blew it up.

The boat was two fold: 1) Get Des away from Penny 2) Put the navigational equipment off by such and such degrees so Des will get LOST.
Except I think the entire race around the world was an attempt to find the island, simply by having the race route go into the vicinity where Widmore believed the island to be. No reason to manipulate GPS at all.

In fact, since Widmore didn't know where the island was when Des entered the race, Widmore couldn't recalibrate the GPS to get Des onto the island.

I'm guessing at the locator beacon Widmore put on just in case Des drifted onto the Island.
Agreed. I'm also guessing he had one installed on every boat in the race.

All I know is that is the vibe I got when she told Jack that it would be dangerous to know about the things she knows. That would be the ultimate revenge on the man who killed her lover too.

I realize it doesnt make sense as to why she seemed confused about Charlotte...but perhaps after the implosion of the hatch, she lost touch and didnt know who the three people from the freighter were...and considering Ben is a master manipulator....

Juliet is smart. Making friends with Widmore is not something she would do. Nor Kate, as some have suggested. Juliet had no opportunity to make contact, Ben kept tapes of everyone... remember the cameras? I totally agree that Juliet is trying to get off the Island. She was planning on leaving with Jack in the sub, until Locke blew it up.

When the blast door in the original hatch came down and pinned Locke, he saw that map on the ceiling which stated the Black Rock was the final resting place for "Magus Hanso".

If you watched the replay last week of episode 4.04 where they have pop-ups, during the auction scene the pop-up stated that the log book of the Black Rock was owned by "Tovard Hanso", and that he was grandson of Magnus Hanso, the Captain of the Black Rock.

The log book itself was written by the Black Rock's first mate, and was among Black Rock "artifacts" taken by pirates, and the Black Rock itself disappeared 7 years later (ended up on the island).

The auctioneer stated that the contents of the book were never shown to the public, and Widmore paid a whopping $380,000 for it.

I'm guessing the Black Rock crew had been to the island before, so it had been known to the Hanso family for generations. Once Widmore got ahold of the book, he too knew about it.

Perhaps the original Others are the descendents of the crew. Or, maybe they are the original crew. Remember Richard Alpert hasn't aged a day since he first met Ben in the early 70's.

crimson rabbit... i like your response... as my signature says. we covet what we see most often...

I think it's pretty obvious that the implication is that Widmore found out about the island via the diary. It's a pretty uncoincidental location for Desmond seeking Widmore out at the place and time that he was buying the Black Rock journal, only to be revealed as the man behind the freighter this week.
The island is covered with stuff bearing the "Widmore Industries" logo (for example, all the medicines have "Widmore Laboratories" on them). So Widmore has a long-term connection with Hanso and the island.

Abaddon hired Naomi. This implies Abaddon is working for Widmore. Abaddon told Naomi that there are no survivors from flight 815...implying that should she encounter any survivors, she needs to ignore them or kill them or just not worry about it right now. We now know that the Fantastic Four are there for Ben. So Abaddon's orders to Naomi must have been to retrieve Benjamin Linus from the island. At this point the freighter must know where the island is otherwise why send out a specialized team who are supposed to get in and out quickly?

Remember the other Widmore ship, the Christiane 1 which found the "wreckage of flight 815"? The crew was supposedly looking for the Black Rock...presumably to find the location of the island. Widmore has either been to the island and saw the Black Rock, or he has been told about the island. I think the Christiane 1 was meant to discover the faked wreckage of flight 815.

I wonder if Widmore has been financing Ben's quest (whatever it is).

I believe Penny was trying to track Desmond using the transponder on the Elizabeth or its GPS system and that was the signal that the listening outpost received when the button wasn't pushed and the island was made visible to the outside world.

Using Desmond's sailing path, last known signal from the Elizabeth and the signal recceived by the outpost coupled with the Black Rock's journal, I think Widmore was able to use the Fantastic Four to more precisely pinpoint the island's location.

I'm guessing the Black Rock crew had been to the island before, so it had been known to the Hanso family for generations. Once Widmore got ahold of the book, he too knew about it.

Perhaps the original Others are the descendents of the crew. Or, maybe they are the original crew. Remember Richard Alpert hasn't aged a day since he first met Ben in the early 70's.

I think Widmore already knew about the island before he bought the Black Rock Log. He bought the book to help him locate it.

I also am suspicous that Alpert is a crew member of the Black Rock.

I think Richard is even older than that.

Except I think the entire race around the world was an attempt to find the island, simply by having the race route go into the vicinity where Widmore believed the island to be. No reason to manipulate GPS at all.

In fact, since Widmore didn't know where the island was when Des entered the race, Widmore couldn't recalibrate the GPS to get Des onto the island.


Agreed. I'm also guessing he had one installed on every boat in the race.

I don't think Widmore would take such a chance on MAYBE one boat getting close. That would be like playing the lottery. He needed to get ONE boat at least as close as possible and if Desmond didn't find it, no loss to Widmore if Desmond died at sea. He went to alot of trouble to get Desmond into the race, ie: Libby's story (which I'm sure was a ship Widmore supplied), the ship in his office, etc. Remember, by this time he would have the Black Rock book. He would have a general idea where to send the boat. The only reason he didn't have EXACT coordinance was because Ben was jamming transmissions. Somehow, someone had to get pass the jamming transmissions to send out a clear signal. Why do you think Ben wanted Desmonds boat so bad? How long was Desmond in the hatch before he found out that his boat was still afloat? Would the transmissions from the GPS have gotten through the jamming? If the GPS couldn't get through, it would have least have had a last signal for Widmore to have a general idea of where to look. Because Penny had set up a listening station I'm guessing she found out what her father was up to and was waiting for a signal. Since Islands don't normally give off signals, what SIGNAl did the crew see for a few seconds? I'm guessing it was Desmonds signal off his boat, which happened BEFORE Ben captured his boat. OR there was one on the plane. Or BOTH.
What do you think?
100%
When the blast door in the original hatch came down and pinned Locke, he saw that map on the ceiling which stated the Black Rock was the final resting place for "Magus Hanso".

If you watched the replay last week of episode 4.04 where they have pop-ups, during the auction scene the pop-up stated that the log book of the Black Rock was owned by "Tovard Hanso", and that he was grandson of Magnus Hanso, the Captain of the Black Rock.

The log book itself was written by the Black Rock's first mate, and was among Black Rock "artifacts" taken by pirates, and the Black Rock itself disappeared 7 years later (ended up on the island).

The auctioneer stated that the contents of the book were never shown to the public, and Widmore paid a whopping $380,000 for it.

I'm guessing the Black Rock crew had been to the island before, so it had been known to the Hanso family for generations. Once Widmore got ahold of the book, he too knew about it.

Perhaps the original Others are the descendents of the crew. Or, maybe they are the original crew. Remember Richard Alpert hasn't aged a day since he first met Ben in the early 70's.

We could really use a timeline thread for each event. Timeline for Hanso and the Blackrock, Desmond landing on the Island, etc. Than we could accuretly compair and ask questions. Thanks for posting!:)
100%
The island is covered with stuff bearing the "Widmore Industries" logo (for example, all the medicines have "Widmore Laboratories" on them). So Widmore has a long-term connection with Hanso and the island.

Could you give me an example, which machines? Which station? If Widmore knew where the Island was once, how did he lose it? How do you lose an Island?
I believe Widmore has known of the station for a while, but maybe those who knew of its location are either dead or refuse to talk to Widmore. Maybe that is why Widmore hires Miles... to talk to the dead so he could find the Island?
Why does Widmore want only Ben? Ben is not the only person who helped murder the Dharma people. I really thought Daniel and Charlotte were going to try and kill everyone. Nice suprise.