***Mod edited*** When Ben tells Locke about 5000 people going to see the Virgin Mary mold, and then he drew a parallel to "what happens when people find out you were in a wheelchair and can walk," he's NOT referring to "people are going to come shell out 100 bucks a head to look at the formerly wheelchair-bound man," he's talking about when word of the island's properties get out, FAR more people will be seeking that island then a mold that could or could not be construed as an image of the virgin mary.

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I thought this was completely straight forward... maybe posts are being made faster than I can keep up with, but I haven't seen anyone analyzing this line....

You and I are on the same page.

Keep going . . .

Yeah lol..there's always a lot of posts right after air time. I've seen it in a few threads already and it's making my head hurt ><

Well there's another layer to what he was saying. The island doesn't heal everyone, but Locke has a special communion with the island, so people seeking a cure would want to be near him. Ben was healed because he was around Locke.

***Mod edited*** When Ben tells Locke about 5000 people going to see the Virgin Mary mold, and then he drew a parallel to "what happens when people find out you were in a wheelchair and can walk," he's NOT referring to "DERP people are going to come shell out 100 bucks a head to look at the formerly wheelchair-bound man DERP," he's talking about when word of the island's properties get out, FAR more people will be seeking that island then a mold that could or could not be construed as an image of the virgin mary.

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All that you said was really quite obvious from the episode.

All that you said was really quite obvious from the episode.


You would definitely think so.

***Mod edited*** When Ben tells Locke about 5000 people going to see the Virgin Mary mold, and then he drew a parallel to "what happens when people find out you were in a wheelchair and can walk," he's NOT referring to "people are going to come shell out 100 bucks a head to look at the formerly wheelchair-bound man," he's talking about when word of the island's properties get out, FAR more people will be seeking that island then a mold that could or could not be construed as an image of the virgin mary.

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I took it to mean there would be quite a few folks seeking a miracle cure to their ailments. Those faith healers on TV make a few bucks. I'd imagine a faith healing island might cause more than few people to unload their life saving to give it a whirl as well.

***Mod edited*** That being said, I know that everyone has the right to their opinions (may be the numerous red cards talking) but I would hope that people put a little bit of effort and logic into their posts so that we have something legitimate to discuss.

It's understandable. I at first thought that Ben was saying Locke would be some sought-after guru, trying to appeal to his ego. Then, I realized that he was talking like you say. I laughed because it was such a flimsy lie by Ben.

***Mod edited*** When Ben tells Locke about 5000 people going to see the Virgin Mary mold, and then he drew a parallel to "what happens when people find out you were in a wheelchair and can walk," he's NOT referring to "people are going to come shell out 100 bucks a head to look at the formerly wheelchair-bound man," he's talking about when word of the island's properties get out, FAR more people will be seeking that island then a mold that could or could not be construed as an image of the virgin mary.

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I didn't necessarily get that on te first watch, but you got it right on. I certainly wasn't imagining Jurassic Park though.

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I think there is yet another layer to the analogy. Locke has been described by his mother as an "immaculate conception." He is a messaih himself. So it ties into the relgious themes as well.

I think there is yet another layer to the analogy. Locke has been described by his mother as an "immaculate conception." He is a messaih himself. So it ties into the relgious themes as well.

I had forgotten about that interesting little quirk in the story line, but seeing how the rest of Locke's life played out up until then, I think she was just playing a headtrip on him. Can't have an immaculate conception and a father that's genetically matched for your kidney, right?

Well there's another layer to what he was saying. The island doesn't heal everyone, but Locke has a special communion with the island, so people seeking a cure would want to be near him. Ben was healed because he was around Locke.

I would generally agree with this statement. Locke could potentially be viewed by some as a guru of sorts, due to his quick healing and spiritual communion with the Island... But I really do think that what Ben was referring to people paying to come to the Island to be healed.

This happens all the time, I read posts & I think, were they watching the same episode as me or they don't rememeber the last seasons stuff, etc....People come up with crazy far fetched stuff that isn't there sometime...but chill let people think what they want to because you could be wrong too (not necessarily on this matter but just in general), they (the writers) make half of it up as they go along in my opinion, so people's theories are just that theories, not something that is concrete all the time...

With the The Constant and now this episode, there does seem to be a percentage of those who feel more privileged about having a say as to what should or shouldn't be posted on these boards.

People are having fun with the show and with their theories (no matter how ludicrous you may think -- and I emphasize "think" -- they are.

And like "ER", you have the choice of not enjoying them if you so please. Just change the channel. For if you feel a need to read every single post in this forum, my friend, you have to find something else to do during your days...

A side note...I'm still upset at the writer's for misusing the term 'immaculate conception'. That referes to Mary who had a father! The 'immaculate' means the Catholic belief that she didn't posses original sin.

But back on topic..Locke was healed but also remember Rose was also healed but apaprently Ben doesn't know about that. I don't know what that does for Locke's 'messiah' like claims.

Again with the Virgin Mary....she keeps turning up in this show.

A side note...I'm still upset at the writer's for misusing the term 'immaculate conception'. That referes to Mary who had a father! The 'immaculate' means the Catholic belief that she didn't posses original sin.


Thanks for posting this. It is a very common misinterpretation.

And like "ER", you have the choice of not enjoying them if you so please. Just change the channel. For if you feel a need to read every single post in this forum, my friend, you have to find something else to do during your days...

Hehe, thanks for the awe inspring words ben. I did not start this thread, but I did make the ER comment, so I am confused by your post. Are you telling me how to be, or are you generally telling those in this thread who have expressed frustration with idiocy how to be? You didn't direct your comments to anyone in particular, so it is hard to tell what you mean...

As for changing the channel, my TV has not been tuned to ER since season 1. Nonetheless, shows like that demonstrate what the viewing public wants - mindless blabber. TGF LOST!

BTW, as for my reading every post here, I have not the time nor desire to do that. Further, it does not bother me that people do not seem to be able to connect a lot of the dots. In fact, I also forget many of the connections. But, if I don't know something, I don't claim that I do.

But, thanks again for the advice, it is stored away for future use ;)

HELLO EVERYBODY--it's a TV show, remember? Get a grip

Hehe, thanks for the awe inspring words ben. I did not start this thread, but I did make the ER comment, so I am confused by your post. Are you telling me how to be, or are you generally telling those in this thread who have expressed frustration with idiocy how to be? You didn't direct your comments to anyone in particular, so it is hard to tell what you mean...

As for changing the channel, my TV has not been tuned to ER since season 1. Nonetheless, shows like that demonstrate what the viewing public wants - mindless blabber. TGF LOST!

BTW, as for my reading every post here, I have not the time nor desire to do that. Further, it does not bother me that people do not seem to be able to connect a lot of the dots. In fact, I also forget many of the connections. But, if I don't know something, I don't claim that I do.

But, thanks again for the advice, it is stored away for future use ;)


No, the ER comment was not directed at you, at all. I figured I'd use ER since it was already in the thread. And I watch it as well. Although I hate myself after every episode. :redface: I agree, it is mindless blabber and TGF LOST!

My comment was directed more at those people who, for the most part, have become distraught at last week's episode because they insist that it has definitively taken a turn for the worse and that TPTB are only making it up as it goes along and that everything will be answered with time travel. Their cries have become ho-hum.

But that's fine. They have their opinions. And who knows, they may be right in the end and then aren't I the sucker. However, it seems they would like to now dictate what gets posted and what doesn't. Original thought or deviations are not welcome in their eyes, especially if it includes any reference to time travel.

The attitude comes through like gangbusters and I find it quite discouraging. Personally, I hate the threads like "Best lines..." and "Didn't you just hate Charlotte!" But I don't read those. Just like I don't read every single comment in the threads I actually post in. Who's got the time, really?

Get a grip, I say!

A side note...I'm still upset at the writer's for misusing the term 'immaculate conception'. That referes to Mary who had a father! The 'immaculate' means the Catholic belief that she didn't posses original sin.

But back on topic..Locke was healed but also remember Rose was also healed but apaprently Ben doesn't know about that. I don't know what that does for Locke's 'messiah' like claims.
No.. according to the Catholic Church, Mary immaculately conceived Jesus..(not that she was immaculately conceived) .. meaning.. Mary did not have sex with anyone when she became pregnant with Jesus. She was impregnated by God. Joseph was chosen as her guardian. Joseph was not Jesus's biological father.. God was.. therefore, the Son of God. Mary had a mother and father, but was born without original sin.
But, back to Lost, Locke's mother Emily was admitted several times to a Mental Hospital for a treatable type of schizophrenia. (see Lostpedia.com). She told Locke that he was immaculately conceived (ie that he had no biological father).. but he, and we, know that was just her story.

No.. according to the Catholic Church, Mary immaculately conceived Jesus..(not that she was immaculately conceived) .. meaning.. Mary did not have sex with anyone when she became pregnant with Jesus. She was impregnated by God. Joseph was chosen as her guardian. Joseph was not Jesus's biological father.. God was.. therefore, the Son of God. Mary had a mother and father, but was born without original sin.
But, back to Lost, Locke's mother Emily was admitted several times to a Mental Hospital for a treatable type of schizophrenia. (see Lostpedia.com). She told Locke that he was immaculately conceived (ie that he had no biological father).. but he, and we, know that was just her story.

Actually, according to wikipedia, Mary was born without the stain of original sin as everyone else but Christ is. She was, in essence, like God. So if Locke was "immacuately conceived" - doesn't that mean he was God-like and anything he does is right? Tying all the pieces together, I think the point was that Locke was like Virgin Mary - people would flock to see his miraculous recovery - and would treat HIM like a miracle.

Actually, according to wikipedia, Mary was born without the stain of original sin as everyone else but Christ is. She was, in essence, like God. So if Locke was "immacuately conceived" - doesn't that mean he was God-like and anything he does is right? Tying all the pieces together, I think the point was that Locke was like Virgin Mary - people would flock to see his miraculous recovery - and would treat HIM like a miracle.
I was correcting the term "immaculate conception" in the previous post. When a woman conceives a child, she does so by having sex with a man. The 'immaculate' part of that term replaces the 'man' with 'God'. She conceived immaculately..= cleanly (the Catholic Church, around 300AD, decided that sex was a bad thing ..ie dirty).
When Emily said that Locke was immaculately conceived, she was saying that she did not have sex with her husband.. that God created the baby Locke inside her.
That would imply that Locke was like Jesus (not Mary)... but, yes, a miracle.

When Ben compared Locke's cure to Mary, he wasn't comparing Mary's immaculate conception, he was comparing her apparent 'appearance' that made people flock to the spot where she was seen.

There was an additional point made before that was very true.. that makes Locke's miraculous cure not so unique on the island. Rose had cancer, Jin was impotent, Mihael died a few times, Richard never ages, Naiomi's pierced lung wound healed in a day.

Actually, according to wikipedia

One should never rely on wikipedia as the source of information and worse to cite that as your only example.

'In the Constitution Ineffabilis Deus of 8 December, 1854, Pius IX pronounced and defined that the Blessed Virgin Mary "in the first instance of her conception, by a singular privilege and grace granted by God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Saviour of the human race, was preserved exempt from all stain of original sin."'

From the Catholic encyclopedia: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07674d.htm

Beyond the issue of how much people would play to come to a Lourdes healing place, consider the value of the mention of the Virgin Mary "appearance" as a time reference which could help set what Ben knows about in real world news. He wasn't telling an allogoric story but was referencing something in the news.... so this is one small thing that connects his life on "island time" with "real" life on real time.

Beyond the issue of how much people would play to come to a Lourdes healing place, consider the value of the mention of the Virgin Mary "appearance" as a time reference which could help set what Ben knows about in real world news. He wasn't telling an allogoric story but was referencing something in the news.... so this is one small thing that connects his life on "island time" with "real" life on real time.
Very good observation. He never misses a beat.. so where is his radio? and why didn't Danielle's message intercept his reception?

Maybe you could hang around and instruct us on how to tie our shoes and pour our milk by ourselves. Good thing posters like you are here to set the record straight according to your perspective.

One should never rely on wikipedia as the source of information and worse to cite that as your only example.

If one were writing a dissertation, that would certainly be the case. If one is writing on an internet board, which is not exactly the be all end of all of publishing on research data, wikipedia will do nicely. Did you have something new to contribute, btw, are were you just complaining about my contribution? :rolleye1:

Thought it was interesting that Ben mentioned the mold thing as having taken place in Gainesville, while Anthony Cooper is from Tallahassee....probably doesn't mean anything but as a college football fan I noticed that, could be some sort of clue.

Maybe you could hang around and instruct us on how to tie our shoes and pour our milk by ourselves. Good thing posters like you are here to set the record straight according to your perspective.

Tying Shoes:

Step 1:
Cross the two shoestring ends over each other once and then loop one end under the other to make the first basic knot of a bow.
Step 2:
In your right hand hold the right shoelace, with palm down, in your pinky, ring and middle fingers.
Step 3:
In your left hand hold the left shoelace, with palms down, in your pinky, ring and middle fingers.
Step 4:
Position your index fingers and thumbs in gun position.
Step 5:
With your right hand place your index finger over the right shoelace and your thumb under the right shoelace. Your hand will be spinning towards you and the string will rest on top of your index finger and thumb.
Step 6:
With your left hand spin your thumb away from you over the shoelace and your index finger under the shoelace. Your hand will spin away from you and the string will rest on top of your index finger and thumb.
Step 7:
With your right index finger on the bottom and right thumb on top grab the left shoestring between your left finger and thumb.
Step 8:
Hook the right string with your left index finger between the right index finger and thumb.
Step 9:
Pull strings in opposite directions.


Sorry, but I can't help you with the milk thing. I still haven't mastered that yet...

If one were writing a dissertation, that would certainly be the case. If one is writing on an internet board, which is not exactly the be all end of all of publishing on research data, wikipedia will do nicely. Did you have something new to contribute, btw, are were you just complaining about my contribution? :rolleye1:


No not complaining about your contribution at all, and yes the immaculate conception refers to Mary not Jesus. I was just saying that using wikipedia as the source will get a lot of scrutiny because anyone can post there so there probably is never false information.

Further, about the Immaculate Conception, well that was never in the Bible, that is something that is invented (as most things are with religion) later to justify what they felt was a contradiction. So really none of it matters...the whole pretense is made up in the first place and the Bible is just a great book to push across the churches agenda of the time.

actually I think the mold thing took place in Clearwater FL

I think Ben is lying about why Widmore wants to find the island. Widmore may be looking for Ben, but I don't think Widmore wants to exploit the island.

You called him "sideshow Locke".

Hilarious.

Maybe in the next episode Locke will try to kill . . . . . Bart Simpson.

Meh - I figured Ben was playing off of John's fears for the Island... where does this notion of John believing himself messianic come from? I saw serious speculation given to his disappointment - on discovery of her wearing a vest - at not having resurrected a dead Charlotte.

But I'm guilty myself: I thought the mould mention was to do with Juliet - the exploration of her relationship with Ben in the same episode leading be to believe...

Ben wanted a Madonna - a miracle baby maker - and got him instead someone who ought to be taken to the city walls and stoned.

So... who'd like to chuck the first rock? (better make sure you're not in a glass house first)

No.. according to the Catholic Church, Mary immaculately conceived Jesus..(not that she was immaculately conceived) .. meaning.. Mary did not have sex with anyone when she became pregnant with Jesus. She was impregnated by God. Joseph was chosen as her guardian. Joseph was not Jesus's biological father.. God was.. therefore, the Son of God. Mary had a mother and father, but was born without original sin.
This is a common misconception of the meaning of the phrase "immaculate conception." It does not relate to the virgin birth, or the conception of Jesus. It refers to the doctrine, created by Pope Pius IX in 1854, that Mary was conceived without original sin:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07674d.htm

Actually, according to wikipedia, Mary was born without the stain of original sin as everyone else but Christ is. She was, in essence, like God.

Just to be pedantic, wikipedia says that that is the Roman Catholic belief, not that it is necessarily actually true.

This is a common misconception of the meaning of the phrase "immaculate conception." It does not relate to the virgin birth, or the conception of Jesus. It refers to the doctrine, created by Pope Pius IX in 1854, that Mary was conceived without original sin

And it was invented because the question came about, if Jesus is supposed to be the representation of god as man and be without sin and all that groovy stuff how can they justify him being carried in a vessel that was sinful, so they concocted the Immaculate Conception. So maybe Mary's iconic role on the show is that of showing the person without sin. Too bad Charlie disposed of her.

It's not about the money....its about the people...swarms of people seeking healing, and curiosities, inundating the island...that's where Ben was playing Locke, who has already stated that he is responsible for the island's well-being, like a Stratovarious.

Widmore's motives...certainly power/money based, are still not made clear at this time. Only to say that he, Widmore, is a threat to the island.

When I first saw this thread title, I thought that someone was going to say they had spotted on the island a mold for the virgin mary statues from nigeria. Now THAT woulda been cool.

If it's true that Widmore constructed buildings for Dharma, I don't think he is out to exploit the island for money.

Also the main purpose of the freighties is to collect Ben. Whatever Widmore wants it involves Ben first and foremost. He may have tried before with Henry Gale and the hot air balloon to nab Ben, a plot which failed. Widmore seems to know Ben well enough to know how best to catch him...enter the Fantastic Four. If Widmore wanted to kill Ben, Dan and Charlotte had the opportunity at the Tempest to kill everyone, but they didn't, and Widmore would have sent some Rambos in if killing Ben were the goal.

The question is, what does Ben have that Widmore wants?

The question is, what does Ben have that Widmore wants?

I'm assuming that it is the undocumented working knowledge of the island and the ways to exploit its unique properties.

He is hoping the island will help with his world domination plans and starting his new chain, WidMart. Like Ben said if 5,000 people go to see mold, how many will come to those spectacular sales prices that only can be found at WidMart

I was correcting the term "immaculate conception" in the previous post. When a woman conceives a child, she does so by having sex with a man. The 'immaculate' part of that term replaces the 'man' with 'God'. She conceived immaculately..= cleanly (the Catholic Church, around 300AD, decided that sex was a bad thing ..ie dirty).

What you're explaining in this paragraph is "virginal birth" not immaculate conception. As others have stated here, the immaculate conception is that Mary was conceived with the 'predestiny' for lack of a better term, to never commit sin.

What elfdream was pointing out, is that if the writers were using it in the sense that you've posted above, it was a misinterpretation on their part. Anyone know what religion TPTB are? It would be interesting if they threw that line in there, with the intention of Emily Locke not understanding the term, but it giving a clue to us about Locke's destiny according to the right definition. However, I think it is unlikely.

I think Ben was just illustrating to Locke what kind of mess it would make of the island if the world knew of it's powers. It would be swarmed with people from all over the world and I'm sure that Locke would like to keep his special place a little more secluded than that. It would make Sawyer's beach resort a possibility :)

PS. (4.8.15.16.23.42) you caused me to get my shoelace in one heck of a knot, shame on you.

I think there is more to Widmore than greed. The reason I say this is if he wanted the island, he could obviously have it.. hire Ben wannabes to figure out the island or better let Daniel and Charlotte and Miles.

But he doesn't want the island, he wants Ben. The greater picture is still unclear, but what do we already know about Ben that makes him important?

When I first saw this thread title, I thought that someone was going to say they had spotted on the island a mold for the virgin mary statues from nigeria. Now THAT woulda been cool.

He is hoping the island will help with his world domination plans and starting his new chain, WidMart. Like Ben said if 5,000 people go to see mold, how many will come to those spectacular sales prices that only can be found at WidMart

I get it! Widdie wants to make Virgin Mary's with the mold on the Island so he can corner the 'drug hiding' market from those pesky Nigerians. Use the Others as a free source of labor, send them to stores via the (technical term) 'Wormhole Thingie'. He can market them as 'constants' for the masses. "Keep Your Head in the NOW!"

Now we know why the Others were building an airstrip. So Fed-EX can make pick-ups. It's all making so much more sense now that I have read this informative thread.

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Ben lies, manipulates, and double-crosses. He tells the truth maybe one in four times he's asked. Whatever is in the folder he gave Locke, he knows much more.

Someone once asked me why I made my bed every day and why my house was clean. I answered "because I'm an adult." The same premise determines what threads I read or post to and those I don't. I realize there are posters of all ages here except perhaps the very young. ***Mod edited*** It just seems pointless to argue or get upset over some stranger's perception of a tv show. We're all free to post or not, read a thread or not. The Fuse is a great place and I would hate to see a sticky about the OP's original topic.

And since Mary was brought up:
When I find myself in times of trouble, mother Mary comes to me,
speaking words of wisdom, let it be.
And in my hour of darkness she is standing right in front of me,
speaking words of wisdom, let it be.

Let it be, let it be, let it be, let it be.
Whisper words of wisdom, let it be.

***Mod edited to remove rest of lyrics***