Not that it matters that I believe he is the good guy, but I am absolutely sure that Ben was saying half a truth when speaking to Locke. Then again, Widmore wants to "exploit the island" just does not seem credible enough...What do you guys think??? I'm positive Ben is hiding Widmore's real purpose from Locke...STILL, more importantly, I do believe that Daniel and Charlotte were told they were doing the right thing, the right thing being them stopping Ben...


...But I can swear that Ben does not want to kill people, he's trying to save them...My opinion is that Widmore lied to them when he sent them there, so that they would all kill one another...I mean Ben knows him, and he probably screwed him over big time, and now Widmore wants him and is lying to everyone...He could NOT have found the island in a million years without someone telling him EXACTLY where the island was...And, y'know it's either Ben or Michael, working for Ben

There is scientific ability to channel and control the natural properties of the island. We know some of those properties, healing being a large one. This alone would make the person who controlled that island immensely powerful. Men of means seldom stop seeking to enhance their power, and Widmore is DEFINITELY a man of means. Wanting the island for himself seems a pretty likely thing for him to do.

Not that it matters that I believe he is the good guy, but I am absolutely sure that Ben was saying half a truth when speaking to Locke. Then again, Widmore wants to "exploit the island" just does not seem credible enough...What do you guys think??? I'm positive Ben is hiding Widmore's real purpose from Locke...STILL, more importantly, I do believe that Daniel and Charlotte were told they were doing the right thing, the right thing being them stopping Ben...


...But I can swear that Ben does not want to kill people, he's trying to save them...My opinion is that Widmore lied to them when he sent them there, so that they would all kill one another...I mean Ben knows him, and he probably screwed him over big time, and now Widmore wants him and is lying to everyone...He could NOT have found the island in a million years without someone telling him EXACTLY where the island was...And, y'know it's either Ben or Michael, working for Ben

How can you say Ben doesn't want to kill people? He killed all the Dharma folk including his own father. He has ordered many people to commit murder.

Ben may know who Widmore is but I doubt he screwed him over personally. He said that a lot of what he knew about Widmore was speculation and guesswork.

How can you say Ben doesn't want to kill people? He killed all the Dharma folk including his own father. He has ordered many people to commit murder.

Ben may know who Widmore is but I doubt he screwed him over personally. He said that a lot of what he knew about Widmore was speculation and guesswork.

And that's exactly where I think he was lying...Okay, here are some facts...

We KNOW that Island is IMPOSSIBLE to find from the outside, even with some good physicists...If Widmore has been trying to find the Island for 10 or more years , he still wouldn't be able to do it without and insider telling him all that he needed to know...Again, the coordinates MIGHT be in the journal he bought from Hanso, but why didn't they go to the Island some seven or eight years earlier???

And, yes, I know Ben killed his father. His terrible, abusive father who hated him. Just like Kate killed her stepfather? Does that make her a bad person???

As for the Dharma people, we have NO IDEA what happened there. We know Darlton and co. are great writers, and after this episode it is bloody transparent that they WANT us to "hate" Ben and think he is "bad"...Not gonna happen with me...He did not pull the switch with Dharma people, Richard and the rest did, Ben was with his father then...And we know there was something going on between Widmore and Hanso, so it's a safe bet to assume Ben was protecting the Island from the beginning...Or maybe something even bigger...

Oh, and as for Widmore exploiting the Island not seeming credible...I just think there is much, much more to it than just "go digging, mining, exploring the powers"...And Ben is lying about that.

I used to believe that Ben would turn out to be a "good guy" in a gray world--taking ruthless steps for the greater good. After seeing Ben get Goodwin killed for selfish reasons, I no longer see Ben as being good. I believe he is as much a threat to the island as Widmore. In fact, I think there is a greater chance that Widmore is a good guy than Ben at this point.

I think Ben might have very well been telling the truth. Perhaps not the complete whole truth. I kind of got the feeling from Ben's speech that Widmore wants to exploit the properties for his own profit (he is a businessman). A popular entrepreneurial enterprise in the late 1800's was to set up spas around hot mineral springs and charge a lot of money for their supposed healing properties in curing every ailment. Perhaps Widmore is waiting to do something similar charging people to come to the island to slow their aging and heal their ailments. Ben made it seem that not only would Widmore like to find the island...but many many people would want to find the island and would do anything to find it.
I think we were giving some clues in "The Constant" as to how Widmore might have been able to find the location of the island as he was buying up artifacts from the Black Rock. As Penny once said, with enough money and determination you can find anyone.

I used to believe that Ben would turn out to be a "good guy" in a gray world--taking ruthless steps for the greater good. After seeing Ben get Goodwin killed for selfish reasons, I no longer see Ben as being good. I believe he is as much a threat to the island as Widmore. In fact, I think there is a greater chance that Widmore is a good guy than Ben at this point.

As selfish as his act might've been (I certainly do not support that), I don't hate him for that, or think he is "evil"...Goodwin was cheating on his wife, and screwing a woman he knew Ben was attached to. While we know Ben wanted Goodwin to be killed, Ben did not kill him, and he could never be sure that it would happen...And I honestly don't think Ben would've killed him himself if he came back...what we saw before is that Ben is somewhat emotionally immature, and that is the only thing he knows, eliminating his fears...Again, while I don't his reaction to Goodwin's death was anything less than abhorring, I don't think it proves anything...On the contrary, I think this was not-so-carefully implanted in the show so we would continue thinking that Ben is bad until a great twist occurs in season 5 or 6 and we go craZy about him *kinda like Snape in Harry Potter, haaha, only much, much, much better*...I just think Darlton screwed this one up...

As selfish as his act might've been (I certainly do not support that), I don't hate him for that, or think he is "evil"...Goodwin was cheating on his wife, and screwing a woman he knew Ben was attached to. While we know Ben wanted Goodwin to be killed, Ben did not kill him, and he could never be sure that it would happen...And I honestly don't think Ben would've killed him himself if he came back...what we saw before is that Ben is somewhat emotionally immature, and that is the only thing he knows, eliminating his fears...Again, while I don't his reaction to Goodwin's death was anything less than abhorring, I don't think it proves anything...On the contrary, I think this was not-so-carefully implanted in the show so we would continue thinking that Ben is bad until a great twist occurs in season 5 or 6 and we go craZy about him *kinda like Snape in Harry Potter, haaha, only much, much, much better*...I just think Darlton screwed this one up...

I just don't see how you can defend a man that ordered Mikhail to kill the 2 women in the Looking Glass station because they knew too much. He also ordered his men to kill anyone who got in their way when they went to take the women off the beach. He ordered Locke to kill his own father.

Additionally, whether he pulled the trigger himself or not, he was entirely complicit in the mass murder of the Dharma people.

I think that the only the thing Ben is being completely honest about is the freighter, they will kill everyone on the island. I'm not saying that makes Ben a good guy, I like that the writers are keeping him a complex character. I find myself sympathizing with him and hating him all at the same time. In the scene were he was preparing dinner for Juliet he seemed like the nerdy school boy trying to impress the prettiest girl in school. And then he goes evil dictator in the same scene. Just because the freighties are there to ostensibly stop Ben doesn't mean that they are they're to help the losties. And what's the point in overthrowing Ben if who willl replace him is just as bad. The only reason the freighties wanted Charlotte and Daniel to disable the gas delivery system was so that Ben couldn't use it as a last resort option in the case of a large scale invasion.

Not that it matters that I believe he is the good guy, but I am absolutely sure that Ben was saying half a truth when speaking to Locke. Then again, Widmore wants to "exploit the island" just does not seem credible enough...What do you guys think??? I'm positive Ben is hiding Widmore's real purpose from Locke...STILL, more importantly, I do believe that Daniel and Charlotte were told they were doing the right thing, the right thing being them stopping Ben...


...But I can swear that Ben does not want to kill people, he's trying to save them...My opinion is that Widmore lied to them when he sent them there, so that they would all kill one another...I mean Ben knows him, and he probably screwed him over big time, and now Widmore wants him and is lying to everyone...He could NOT have found the island in a million years without someone telling him EXACTLY where the island was...And, y'know it's either Ben or Michael, working for Ben

How can you swear Ben does not want to kill people.

He killed his father with his own hands. He betrayed and killed the Dharma group. His people killed members of the tail section. Ethan killed someone from the fuselage and he almost killed Charlie. He ordered Locke to kill his father. He shot Locke and left him for dead. He set up a situation where Sawyer would have been killed by Danny. He moves heaven and earth to bring someone he's fallen in love with to the island. She just happens to be a fertility doctor and all the women who have gotten pregnant on that island die. Either they should be allowed to leave, or they should have been provided with birth control. To bring Juliet in to "save" them was cruel to both Juliet and all the families involved. He has the person Juliet falls in love with killed. Then he takes her out to see the dead person's body and tells her she's his possession? Ben is responsible for so many deaths, I can't keep track of them all.

You excuse him by saying he's really trying to save . . .whatever. I understand that you are fascinated with the character. You like him -- I get it. But to say you swear he doesn't want to kill anyone is beyond reason. If Ben did not want anyone to die, the people would be walking around alive not lying in a Dharma pit, dead.

I don't excuse Widmore. I don't like his attitude toward people who are not wealthy. I don't like the way he treats Desmond at all. I do think what's going on here is more than someone trying to protect the island from developers. Just like you feel Ben was justified in taking his father's life, though we have no proof of any physical abuse by Ben's father, we have no proof that what Widmore is doing to Desmond is worse than what Christian Shephard did with Jack. Maybe there is good and bad in both characters -- just like there is good and bad in most people.

I wouldn't put it past Widmore to have people killed. We've already seen Ben kill.

How can you swear Ben does not want to kill people.

He killed his father with his own hands. He betrayed and killed the Dharma group. His people killed members of the tail section. Ethan killed someone from the fuselage and he almost killed Charlie. He ordered Locke to kill his father. He shot Locke and left him for dead. He set up a situation where Sawyer would have been killed by Danny. He moves heaven and earth to bring someone he's fallen in love with to the island. She just happens to be a fertility doctor and all the women who have gotten pregnant on that island die. Either they should be allowed to leave, or they should have been provided with birth control. To bring Juliet in to "save" them was cruel to both Juliet and all the families involved. He has the person Juliet falls in love with killed. Then he takes her out to see the dead person's body and tells her she's his possession? Ben is responsible for so many deaths, I can't keep track of them all.

You excuse him by saying he's really trying to save . . .whatever. I understand that you are fascinated with the character. You like him -- I get it. But to say you swear he doesn't want to kill anyone is beyond reason. If Ben did not want anyone to die, the people would be walking around alive not lying in a Dharma pit, dead.

I don't excuse Widmore. I don't like his attitude toward people who are not wealthy. I don't like the way he treats Desmond at all. I do think what's going on here is more than someone trying to protect the island from developers. Just like you feel Ben was justified in taking his father's life, though we have no proof of any physical abuse by Ben's father, we have no proof that what Widmore is doing to Desmond is worse than what Christian Shephard did with Jack. Maybe there is good and bad in both characters -- just like there is good and bad in most people.

I wouldn't put it past Widmore to have people killed. We've already seen Ben kill.

Whoa, great post! I honestly mean it, and I DO admit that I should have rephrased what I said :biggrin: Yes, it is true, Ben is VERY capable of committing a murder, and I understand if you and everyone and anyone think it's not okay to justify it anyhow, but I do believe he is doing it for the "grater good"...He did order some people to be killed and he was involved in the purge of Dharma people, but we are yet to find out the reason for it...No war is ever won without huge sacrifices...To say that Ben ordered for those two girls in the station to be killed because he is evil, because he enjoyed it or for his own personal benefit would be just out of reason as well...I mean, we are not naive, we all like this show because of it's incredible, unique, phenomenal narrative, and Ben being this creepy evil mommy-obsessed psycho does not work...He is apparently not on the Island because he enjoys it so much...,he wouldn't risk his own life (YES, I know everyone says he knows what he's doing, but whatever) every single bloody day because he LIKES it...He would not go through emotional or any other torture every day because he LIKED it...We are yet to find out why, but I think every "evil" deed he ever did had a purpose...And we are yet to find out about it...Now, what do we think about Widmore's and Ben's connection???

I agree with Itsalldark. Ben is bad.. I think Widmore has been shown as someone who could kill to achieve his own goals too. I also think he's used Desmond as some kind of guinea pig to help find the island, don't ask me how.

But Ben is bad in a different way than Widmore. I do believe Widmore wants the properties of the island. Ben is perhaps just protecting it, but there could be a "greater good" involved in his protection - saving the world perhaps. My question is, what the heck is all his manoevering supposed to accomplish? What's his ultimate goal? Until we know that, it's hard to make a definitive judgement.

Based on Widmore's fear of public faucet taps in The Constant, I'll go out on a limb here and say he probably believes The Island to be some kind of fountain of youth.