On the computer screen in the Tempest station is a list of chemicals, one of which is O-Ethyl O-(2-diisopropylaminoethyl) methylphosphonite which is the immediate precursor for VX nerve gas http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VX_(nerve_agent). VX is the most potent nerve gas ever invented. Thus, it appears that Ben used VX to kill the members of the Dharma Initiative.

This raises the question of why Dharma has a VX plant on the island.

Screen cap: http://bp0.blogger.com/_Hxnvg45zlCw/R9DSENCKxfI/AAAAAAAAATY/GKhiSXcGDac/s1600-h/pict+2008-03-06+10-53-2310.jpg

Nice catch. Thionyl chloride is also shown, and is used to make G series nerve gas.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thionyl_chloride

Which has the shortest duration? That is ... after the purge, it seemed like less than an hour before they could take off their masks, meaning whatever killed everyone, dissipated quickly in the air, to a point where it was no longer deadly.

Very nice catch. My guess...the hostiles?

I'd like to get screen caps of all the monitor shots.. In one shot he was clearly using "telnet" to get somewhere else.

There are some up on Dark's ^

Maybe Alvar Hanso didn't give up his day job (developing weapons systems) after funding Dharma.

Maybe Alvar Hanso didn't give up his day job (developing weapons systems) after funding Dharma.

I think that is the implication. I guess it is possible that Ben converted the facility to a VX factory after the Purge, but I think that is unlikely because he obviously had access to a VX-like toxic agent during the Purge.

Were there any Dharma logos visible in the station? I didn't catch any, but I am bad
about noticing little things like that.

Were there any Dharma logos visible in the station? I didn't catch any, but I am bad
about noticing little things like that.

The Tempest stations seems to have a logo:
http://bp2.blogger.com/_n3eH1jI8AZ8/R9C5654p8OI/AAAAAAAACgY/f6QsEcTBbWc/s1600-h/tempest.gif

Maybe the gases are Ben's moneymakers. He has been able to fund all sorts of cool things without an apparent source of income.

The Tempest stations seems to have a logo:
http://bp2.blogger.com/_n3eH1jI8AZ8/R9C5654p8OI/AAAAAAAACgY/f6QsEcTBbWc/s1600-h/tempest.gif

There's a little tear drop shape in the wave that look like half a ying-yang symbol. If this station is half of something, maybe there's another chemical plant on the island mixing a different type of gas? Maybe one that mixes with this?

More important question, for all those chem majors on the board, how would you render that gas inert?

There's a little tear drop shape in the wave that look like half a ying-yang symbol. If this station is half of something, maybe there's another chemical plant on the island mixing a different type of gas? Maybe one that mixes with this?

More important question, for all those chem majors on the board, how would you render that gas inert?


I'm a math guy, but from Wikipedia:


"Like other organophosphorus nerve agents, VX may be destroyed by reaction with strong nucleophiles such as pralidoxime. The reaction of VX with concentrated aqueous sodium hydroxide results in competing cleavage of the P-O and P-S esters, with P-S cleavage dominating. This is somewhat problematic, since the product of P-O bond cleavage (named EA 2192) remains toxic. In contrast, reaction with the anion of hydrogen peroxide (hydroperoxidolysis) leads to exclusive cleavage of the P-S bond.[2]"

My question is why would you pick a theoretical physicist and not a chemical engineer to send to shut down an automated chemical production plant? It doesn't seem like the skillsets overlap very much.

well, Dan did say he didn't like to be "pigeon-holed". so maybe he is brilliant enough to understand both theoretical physics and advanced chemistry. or maybe he knows so much because he's been time-shifting a la Desmond, and has been through this all before. (personally, i like the second option much better)

My question is why would you pick a theoretical physicist and not a chemical engineer to send to shut down an automated chemical production plant? It doesn't seem like the skillsets overlap very much.


I don't think that shutting down the plant was Faraday's primary role in recruiting him.
I think it has more to do with the time variations and his experiment and notebook. I mean,
Charlotte is an anthropologist and Miles is a whatever he is and they went, too. The
show also take some liberties as we've seen with Sayid's character. I guess Faraday is
like MacGuyver.

Which has the shortest duration? That is ... after the purge, it seemed like less than an hour before they could take off their masks, meaning whatever killed everyone, dissipated quickly in the air, to a point where it was no longer deadly.

g series would have a shorter durration, vx is more of an "area denial" weapon, it was designed to degrade slowly. You drop it in an area where you don't want people to go for a while.

All of the V-agents are persistent agents, meaning that these agents do not degrade or wash away easily, and can therefore remain on clothes and other surfaces for long periods. In use, this allows the V-agents to be used to blanket terrain to guide or curtail the movement of enemy ground forces. The consistency of these agents is similar to oil; as a result, the contact hazard for V-agents is primarily - but not exclusively - dermal. VX was the only V-series agent that was fielded by the USA as a munition, consisting of rockets, airplane spray tanks, and landmines.

my guess would be the gas is some type of hybrid v series, it is interesting to note, vx was discovered/created in england. it is also considered a WMD

I think this is how Dharma was planning on getting rid of the Hostiles, by fumigating the island with a lethal gas. Now, judging by the quarantine signs, it seems that they really did it!!!! I wonder HOW they survived though? Hiding underground? The Temple?
Anyways, I wonder if any of the side effects could have anything to do with the others's fertility issues????
100%
There's a little tear drop shape in the wave that look like half a ying-yang symbol. If this station is half of something, maybe there's another chemical plant on the island mixing a different type of gas? Maybe one that mixes with this?

More important question, for all those chem majors on the board, how would you render that gas inert?
WTH? wasn't that the logo for the Orchid station?

g series would have a shorter durration, vx is more of an "area denial" weapon, it was designed to degrade slowly. You drop it in an area where you don't want people to go for a while.

All of the V-agents are persistent agents, meaning that these agents do not degrade or wash away easily, and can therefore remain on clothes and other surfaces for long periods. In use, this allows the V-agents to be used to blanket terrain to guide or curtail the movement of enemy ground forces. The consistency of these agents is similar to oil; as a result, the contact hazard for V-agents is primarily - but not exclusively - dermal. VX was the only V-series agent that was fielded by the USA as a munition, consisting of rockets, airplane spray tanks, and landmines.

my guess would be the gas is some type of hybrid v series, it is interesting to note, vx was discovered/created in england. it is also considered a WMD

I agree that all the description they gave of the toxic agent doesn't totally fit with VX. VX isn't a gas (although it can be dispersed as fine particles). However, I think the discrepancy is just a case of the writers taking some creative license.

This is all very interesting. I agree that The Tempest was built (at least the nerve gas releasing part) to eliminate the Island natives. The problem is a remnant escaped death and became the Hostiles. The Hostiles (with Ben) later turned the tables and used the same facility to eliminate the DI. Ben was also planning to use The Tempest to eliminate the Freighties, and quite possibly the Losties. No wonder Ben was right where he wanted to be (according to Harper)! He was in his own house in the basement, which probably was sealed against the incursion of the poison gas!

Good thinking (re: Ben in his basement), I like that, rabid.

But uh, what about the cannister? Do you think that, in the interest of keeping it conspicuous (the ol' going for beers on the Flats with Dad ruse), he went out there and needed the cannister because the spot was so remote? As in, the entire island was not being fumigated (only necessary parts)? Without that, I cant see a need for the cannister.

I was thinking the tempest was somehow connected to every building on the island. Sort of like a "plan B" self destruction of all the equipment and personnel on the island. If something went horribly wrong, the tempest would be activated and the gas was pumped through all the buildings to eliminate all involved and due to the nature of v-series gases, it would prevent anyone from going back for a while. The canisters were needed for areas of the island that were not connected to the tempest.

I also noticed the "Thionyl Chloride"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thionyl_chloride

One interesting point is that it's NFPA 704 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NFPA_704) forms "42"

http://www.buddhanet.net/wheel2.htm
I love this site, Dharma symbols, wheel of life, everything you always wanted to know about the Six Stations, the real Dharma etc....
http://www.buddhanet.net/index.html
I can't find that exact symbol, but anyway

The nerve gas was a great find :)

Back during the height of the cold war, I was in the USAF. One of my duties, in case of deployment, was to man a CBR (Chemical/Biological/Radiological) Shelter. As part of our training for this job, we had given some general knowledge about the different types of agents that we might possibly encounter.

One misnomer about nerve gas, is just that, it's not really a gas. It's normally a liquid that has to be dispersed, such that it becomes atomized, for it to be an effective weapon, used over an area. Mostly, it's absorbed through the skin from those droplets (like raid on a roach, has to touch them). It's persistance, in that area, after dispersal, relates to the quanity of the dispersal, the overall weather (cold/hot, dry/wet, sunny/cloudy) and the terrain features (are there areas that the sun won't shine as well compared to others). A very Wet, jungle would mostly have the "gas" washed away, in a very short period of time (given the downpours that we have previously seen). But no matter what, it will finally all evaporate away and the affected area will be "safe".

Now, I do remember that the soviets had been working on an epoxy based VX, such that it would create a semi-hard shell around a still liquid center, that could persist for a very, very long time. A virtual nightmare to cleanup.

Anyways, maybe more posted later, have to go now.

E_T

Good thinking (re: Ben in his basement), I like that, rabid.

But uh, what about the cannister? Do you think that, in the interest of keeping it conspicuous (the ol' going for beers on the Flats with Dad ruse), he went out there and needed the cannister because the spot was so remote? As in, the entire island was not being fumigated (only necessary parts)? Without that, I cant see a need for the cannister.

If you listened to the commentary for "The Man Behind the Curtain," you'll hear the producers say that they originally wrote and shot the scene without Ben's canister. (He still had his own gas mask.) So in the original concept, an island-wide gas attack did in fact take Roger Linus.

The canister was added as an insert shot during post-production so Ben would have a more active role in his father's death.

So that's your 'need' for a canister -- it's entirely a storytelling need, not a scientific one. The writers wanted Ben to be seen not as merely associated with a mass murder, but actively perpetrating at least one of the deaths.

this new storyline certainly has me worrying and wondering.


I however don't believe it was designed to hurt the hostiles at all, that is giving a little too much credit to the hostiles. A few ak-47s could of solved that problem

Nice catch. Thionyl chloride is also shown, and is used to make G series nerve gas.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thionyl_chloride

On the computer screen in the Tempest station is a list of chemicals, one of which is O-Ethyl O-(2-diisopropylaminoethyl) methylphosphonite which is the immediate precursor for VX nerve gas http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VX_(nerve_agent).
I'm not familiar with the rxn, but the latter article says elemental S or "sulfur compounds" can be used to do the last step. However, I would think it would have to be a reduced form of S, not such an oxidized form as thionyl chloride. Conceivably, however, thionyl chloride could be used to prepare an alkylating agent to produce an earlier intermediate in the synthesis. If not, then what are the odds you would have 2 different nerve agents in prod'n at the facility? Which would further my belief that the "poison gas" is BS.

The VX article's mention of methylation of PCl3 I don't think could be done by methyl chloride (the making of which could be the excuse for using SOCl2), and anyway even if it could, methyl chloride is a bulk chemical that would be purchased rather than made on site. And I don't think you even could produce an isopropyl-donating compound to make the substituted amine using SOCl2. So the BS explanation tends to be confirmed.

Closest I ever came to working with compounds with this type of bioaffecting action was some phenylmethylsulfonyl fluoride (PMSF). I did it under a hood and wore disposable gloves, double. (Others would single glove, but I didn't trust that.) PMSF was the new and relatively safe alternative to DIFP, diisopropylfluorophosphate. The Sigma catalog under DIFP basically said, "Don't be an idiot and order this, get PMSF instead."

Robert

I'm not familiar with the rxn, but the latter article says elemental S or "sulfur compounds" can be used to do the last step. However, I would think it would have to be a reduced form of S, not such an oxidized form as thionyl chloride. Conceivably, however, thionyl chloride could be used to prepare an alkylating agent to produce an earlier intermediate in the synthesis. If not, then what are the odds you would have 2 different nerve agents in prod'n at the facility? Which would further my belief that the "poison gas" is BS.

Two of the compounds listed on the screen (O-ethyl 2-diisopropylaminoethyl methylphosphonite and N,N-diisopropyl-2-aminoethane thiol) are immediate precursors to VX via two different synthetic routes. I think this rules out anything but VX being the intended product.

Thionyl chloride can be used to prepare VX precursors.

On the computer screen in the Tempest station is a list of chemicals, one of which is the immediate precursor for VX nerve gas. Thus, it appears that Ben used VX to kill the members of the Dharma Initiative.

This raises the question of why Dharma has a VX plant on the island.

This is the THIRD thread in which I have consecutively found one quote from "The Other Woman" to potentially be quite revealing:

+GOODWIN (to Juliette): "A little less than a kilometer from here, [Ben] has me working +with chemicals that could kill every man, woman and child on this island if I flip the +wrong switch."

Since Ben had Goodie "working with" the chems in the Tempest station, it's possible that he, not Dharma, was responsible for the VX gas...

- mnw

I also noticed the "Thionyl Chloride"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thionyl_chloride

One interesting point is that it's NFPA 704 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NFPA_704) forms "42"

Remember that notation on the blast door map, which read: "Final Destination in case of Code 42"? Maybe Code 42 is deployment of the gas, and the final destination was a safety location for them to gather.

On the blast door map there were a number of things marked CV-I, CV-II etc, possibly standing for Cerberus-Vent. Up until now i'd assumed these were for smokie to travel around. What if cerberus was another name for the dispersal system for the tempest, and these vents were for dispersing the nerve gas around the island?

On the computer screen in the Tempest station is a list of chemicals, one of which is O-Ethyl O-(2-diisopropylaminoethyl) methylphosphonite which is the immediate precursor for VX nerve gas http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VX_(nerve_agent). VX is the most potent nerve gas ever invented. Thus, it appears that Ben used VX to kill the members of the Dharma Initiative.

This raises the question of why Dharma has a VX plant on the island.

Screen cap: http://bp0.blogger.com/_Hxnvg45zlCw/R9DSENCKxfI/AAAAAAAAATY/GKhiSXcGDac/s1600-h/pict+2008-03-06+10-53-2310.jpg


... you are right but this makes no sense. VX is also extremely toxic when contacted dermally... meaning that the gas masks would not have been enough to save them. Even a few drops on the skin would cause symptoms and could be potentially fatal. Not to mention that the levels that would have produced inside a closed area, like the car Ben killed his Dad in, would have been too great for the sort of respirator Ben had. Man I hate it when the writers don't do their research.

This is the THIRD thread in which I have consecutively found one quote from "The Other Woman" to potentially be quite revealing:

+GOODWIN (to Juliette): "A little less than a kilometer from here, [Ben] has me working +with chemicals that could kill every man, woman and child on this island if I flip the +wrong switch."

Since Ben had Goodie "working with" the chems in the Tempest station, it's possible that he, not Dharma, was responsible for the VX gas...

- mnw

Good point. Maybe the Tempest station was created for something else, and was taken over by Ben/the Hostiles to produce a lethal gas as part of the Purge?

P.S. - Thx to the chemmies out there. I love that we all have our real-world expertise to use to explain different parts of the show to each other. I learn a lot from you guys and gals!

... you are right but this makes no sense. VX is also extremely toxic when contacted dermally... meaning that the gas masks would not have been enough to save them. Even a few drops on the skin would cause symptoms and could be potentially fatal.

Hmmm... I have good news & bad news for you. To repeat quotes I used before:

+GOODWIN: [Ben] has me working with chemicals that could kill every man, woman
+and child on this island if I flip the wrong switch.

+JULIET: I won't tell anyone that you lied about how you hurt your arm. I know a
+chemical burn when I see one.

The good news is that by pointing out that Goodwin burned himself while working with the gas, the writers are telling us that they do indeed know that VX is dangerous when contacted (as you say) dermally. If they know what they're doing, what they've revealed here is that Dan & Char are BSing everyone about how the gas works and, therefore, about their motives and actions in general.



The bad news is that, assuming who know your toxic gases, they were clearly off-plumb regarding the severity of Goodie burning himself with the stuff (unless he spilled a different, less dangerous chemical from the Dharsenal, of course).


-- mnw

this might interest y'all from wikipedia :The sulfur mustards, of which mustard gas is a member, are a class of related cytotoxic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cytotoxic), vesicant (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vesicant) chemical warfare agents (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemical_warfare_agent) with the ability to form large blisters (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blister) on exposed skin. In their pure form most sulfur mustards are colorless, odorless, viscous liquids at room temperature. When used as warfare agents they are usually yellow-brown in color and have an odor resembling mustard plants (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mustard_plant), garlic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garlic) or horseradish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horseradish), hence the trivial name. The name originally assigned by the German Empire was "Lost", referring to the individuals Lommel and Steinkopf, who first proposed the military use of Sulfur Mustard to the German Imperial General Staff.
Sulfur mustards are relatives of "mustard gas" ( bis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bis)(2-chloroethyl) sulfide).

and

"At very high concentrations, if inhaled, it causes bleeding and blistering within the respiratory system (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Respiratory_system), - sounds like Des

and

there have been experimental cases in humans where the patient has suffered miosis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miosis), or pinpointing of pupils - sounds like the eyes

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mustard_gas

Excellent find.

On the computer screen in the Tempest station is a list of chemicals, one of which is O-Ethyl O-(2-diisopropylaminoethyl) methylphosphonite which is the immediate precursor for VX nerve gas http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VX_(nerve_agent). VX is the most potent nerve gas ever invented. Thus, it appears that Ben used VX to kill the members of the Dharma Initiative.

This raises the question of why Dharma has a VX plant on the island.

just in case

I think Dharma was working on biological weapons and a delivery system for them. If so it backfired on them.