I personally will always have a soft spot for season 1 - back when the show was about surviving on an island, the mysterious others, the smoke monster, etc. I'm a bit wary of the direction now - I really couldn't care that Widmore wants to get on the island, or that someone is blackmailing Ben for 3 million dollars. I've said it before, but it just seems so weird to me watching season 1, and then watching the other seasons. This season, save for this past week's and Eggtown, the episodes have been really good, but I just hope they don't spend much time on Widmore, and battling corporations, etc. My one complaint about this season is that there is no more 'surviving on an island' left, or any real mysticism left in the show. What do you guys think?

How do you like the overall direction of season 4 so far?

There's a direction?

north of course :cool:

It sort of feels like a whole different show. I'm not sure I'm that big a fan anymore.

I'm seriously considering switching off, I've always been a huge fan and couldnt wait for season 4 to arrive but its been a huge disappointment.

The time travel episode was awful, they are trying to make it too over the top sci-fi and its now a real turn off for anyone not into sci-fi as the explainations are now too way out.

But more importantly it is filled with incosistencies and they really do seem to making it all up as they go along. Are we really supposed to believe that Harper was originally in the season 3 episode when we saw the plane fall apart?!! Looks like another Paulo & Nicky to me!!

On the plus side - at least i wont have to wait months for the next series - cause i wont be watching it.

How do you like the overall direction of season 4 so far?

There's a direction?
That was going to be MY answer!

I'm voting for KittyThor in '08!

The first three episodes were absolutely awesome. Eggtown and The Other Woman weren't that great, but I have to say that they were still better than most episodes in most other shows.

What bothers me is the time-travelling. And the ghosts. I love Desmond and I think that the Constant was in many ways a truly great episode...if you just ignore the idiotic time travelling of the mind. I can't even be bothered to think if there was a paradox or not because the past "conscious" leaving the physical brain and travelling in time just doesn't make any sense. I want real explanations, not just ignoring all science and adding some magic and wishing we'll buy it because there's great romance and exiting twists.

Only thing that bugs me about Lost are the filler episodes, padding out the quantity of the seasons.
So far though season 4 has not had room for padding, it seems that TPTB have switched on to viewers switching off when they make entire episodes of nothingness.
I have been gripped with season 4 so far. Answers are coming thick and fast for me even Eggtown gave us something in the way off an answer to Arron's plight post island.
I admit that some sloppy writing has been introduced this season which i have not picked up on before but i suppose this happens when different writers work on different episodes.

I enjoyed season 1 and 2, and I loved Jack, Sawyer and Kate being captured in Season 3. But then after their release, and once we found out why they had been captured, the whole thing didn't seem to work, and since then it's just made less and less sense to me. Not in a mysterious way, just in a "uh that doesn't make sense" type of way. This has continued into season 4, I don't feel at all as interested as I was in season 1 or 2, there hasn't been a dramatic thing happen where I think "Wow I really need to see how this goes", like with the hatch in season 2, that was intense. And what's happening now in season 4 continues to make no sense in many ways. It may turn out that this is because the writers are surpremely intelligent and have written something that's gone totally over my stupid head, so I am sticking with the show until the end I think, before I write my book "Lost: It's just a load of rubbish" which will be 5,000 pages long. By then, I hope the show picks up, so that maybe I won't have to get it published

The time travel episode was awful, they are trying to make it too over the top sci-fi and its now a real turn off for anyone not into sci-fi as the explainations are now too way out.

Yes, because a flying smoke cloud was realistic. A hatch with a magic electormagnet thingy which can bring an airplane down was realistic. People seeing apparations of their dead loved ones was realistic. Desmond the sailor not being able to sail to Fiji was realistic. Locke walking again was realistic. Anyone surviving that plane crash was realistic.

Lost has always had huge heaping chunks of sci-fi / pseudoscience.

Frankly I am AMAZED that so many people can hate on the time travel for being too much when there were tons of ridiculous sci-fi issues in the areas of biology and physics already on the show. If you were fine with Lost at the end of Season 3, you should be fine with it now.

I love this season. Huge fan, of course I had no expectations of where they were taking this story, im just enjoying it for what it is. Expectations almost ruined "The wire" for me when season 2 started and it was totatlly different from season 1, but once I let go, I loved it and now I see how it all fit together and think its brillant. So with Lost I'm keeping an open mind and just enjoying the ride.

Frankly I am AMAZED that so many people can hate on the time travel for being too much when there were tons of ridiculous sci-fi issues in the areas of biology and physics already on the show. If you were fine with Lost at the end of Season 3, you should be fine with it now.

Well check out the Constant poll... in truth not many people didn't like the time-travel. :)

I think S4 is very good so far. No direction? Not sure what people are talking about.

On the whole, I like it, but I'm a bit nervous about where it's going. The Economist flashforward was a little too Alias-esque for me, but I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt for now. I do hope that they avoid sloppy non-sensical episodes like TOW in the future, however. With the exception of Hugo and Sawyer, most everyone in TOW seemed to be either braindead or acting completely out of character. Nonetheless, I wasn't expecting much following The Constant, which was, in my mind, one of the if not the best episode of the entire series.

I think it's the best season yet. I think as much as anything, the genius of Lost is in the characters. And the new characters introduced in season 4, particularly Daniel and Charlotte, are some of the best characters yet. By adding the new characters, who we don't really know yet, it keeps the same mystery of season 1. At the same time, they are finally, after 3 years, revealing some of the tangible details of physical properties of the island!

As if that weren't enough, the faster pace of the shorter seasons means a steady barrage of new revelations and moving the story forward. No more frustrating filler like Nikki and Paulo. It just doesn't get better than this.

Yes, because a flying smoke cloud was realistic. A hatch with a magic electormagnet thingy which can bring an airplane down was realistic. People seeing apparations of their dead loved ones was realistic. Desmond the sailor not being able to sail to Fiji was realistic. Locke walking again was realistic. Anyone surviving that plane crash was realistic.

Lost has always had huge heaping chunks of sci-fi / pseudoscience.

Frankly I am AMAZED that so many people can hate on the time travel for being too much when there were tons of ridiculous sci-fi issues in the areas of biology and physics already on the show. If you were fine with Lost at the end of Season 3, you should be fine with it now. I'm OK with sci-fi, as long as they give some sort of explanation. Sci-fi aims at explaining everything with science, even if it's pseudoscience, it must make sense as a scientific explanation in that fictional universe. I was hoping that the smoke monster and other weird stuff would be explained with something other than magic...but I'm not sure anymore.

I like the newbies, the freighter story is interesting, I've enjoyed seeing more of Sayid and the Jack/Juliet development is excellent. However, I'm not happy about the way Sawyer has been sidelined. To date, he's had significant scenes in exactly one episode, and that one was so badly written as to be offensive. I bloody well hope they've got more in store for him than being Kate's discarded boy toy because his absense is harshing my buzz for the show overall. The same with Hurley, though at least his character was given the importance of being given not only a centric, but the premiere at that.

The time travel episode was awful, they are trying to make it too over the top sci-fi and its now a real turn off for anyone not into sci-fi as the explainations are now too way out.

Lost has always had huge heaping chunks of sci-fi / pseudoscience. Frankly I am AMAZED that so many people can hate on the time travel for being too much when there were tons of ridiculous sci-fi issues in the areas of biology and physics already on the show. If you were fine with Lost at the end of Season 3, you should be fine with it now.

It is good, R-22, for you to bring this up, as it's been something I've been wanting for some time to address directly: the reason why time travel sucks in Lost.

There are two types of non-ordinary phenomena that we have seen in Lost:

1) Paranormal/Supernatural phenomena - this includes seeing ghosts (Jacob?, Emily Linus, Christian Shephard, Charlie, Jacob's moving/dissappearing cabin, etc), magical healing properties of the Island, divination and prophecy, etc.

2) Science Fiction phenomena - this includes travel in time, huge electromagnetic anomolies, psychological experimentation, etc.

There are some other non-ordinary phenomena that are still unclear as to which of these two categories they'll fall into, such as Smokey (is he a machine or an apparition), the Valenzetti Equation/The Numbers (again, are they due to some Sci-Fi cause, or is it like a Scientology/Supernatural thingy), etc.

Way back years ago we were told by Lindelof that they were not going to use time travel. This was taken literally by many Lost fans. Now, it is possible to take what Lindelof said and manipulate it and make it sound like he didn't really mean to say that, but if that was the case, then why didn't he clarify his statement? Why did he and Carlton and Abrams lead us on in believing that Lost was not going to incorporate time travel in its storyline?

There has been speculation by many fans over the years that there was indeed time travel going on in Lost. All the while we fans were debating this, there was no clarification coming from TPTB. Finally, during last week's episode (The Constant) it finally was revealed conclusively that time travel is indeed a part of Lost. This upset many people - why?

There are a couple of reasons for why people are upset about this. The first, perhaps the most important, is that we have discovered that we were being lied to by TPTB all these years. This comes across to many fans as that we have been used and not treated with respect. Why would Lindelof and TPTB say one thing and then keep quiet about it while doing another? It is because they wanted to keep their ratings up. They wanted to sucker us all in so that we'd keep watching and they'd keep making money off of our interest. They then turned around and let us know that all along they'd been lying to us just to make a buck. This completely sucks, and it is no way to treat dedicated fans.

The other things about time travel is that it does not exist. Nobody has really experieced time travel. However, the same cannot be said about the Paranormal/Supernatural phenomena. Let me explain:

There are people who are of sound mind and reason, who are educated and lucid, who claim to have had various and sundry supernatural or paranormal experiences in their lives. I won't go into specifics, because there are plenty of examples of such things all over the printed and online word for anyone to scrutinize with ease.

Because there are people who claim to have experienced supernatural and paranormal phenomena in real life, using such things in a plotline such as Lost is not something that is necessarily beyond the realm of possibility.

However, nobody has ever experienced time travel. Indeed, it is probably unlikely they will, due to certain laws of physics that will not permit it. Because of this, using something like time travel significantly changes the nature of Lost - turning it into a story that "Might Be Possible", given our understanding of the universe at the moment, into a story that "Cannot Be Possible".

Now, it is entirely likely that many people would say that seeing ghosts and miraculous healing is not possible, but there are people (as I've mentioned) who would disagree with them. There are people who claim to have experienced such things.

So, what happened with "The Constant" was that we fans saw Lost become a story based in real human experience to be turned into another dumb Sci-Fi Thriller such as Babylon Five, Star Trek Voyager/Deep Space Nine/Next Generation/Enterprise/Ad Nauseum, Stargate Atlantis/SG-1/Universe/Infinity, Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, the Power Rangers, etc etc etc etc etc..... There are SO MANY Sci-Fi Thrillers out there all basically telling the same stories over and over again that it has become completely tedious and dull to even try to watch one of these spewvision series.

Lost was supposed to be something new and different. Instead, it's just turned out to be yet another Sci Fi Thriller.

There is another thing that is bothersome about time travel: it has to do with creating a plotline. We fans of Lost who have spent so much time sifting through clues and scrutinizing every screenshot for Easter Eggs have been doing so under the mistaken belief that Lost would be based on something that could be within the realm of real human experience. This doesn't preclude the Paranormal (as outlined above), which is part of the human experience that real people have had. But it does preclude time travel.

To use time travel in a plotline is an irresponsible, stupid, and lazy shortcut to address plot gaps. It's like when after reading or watching a story that has some inconsistencies in it, we are told at the end that it was all a dream and the subject wakes up. Such plot devices treat the audience with disrespect. They are hallmarks not of inspired writing, but of people who don't want to take the time to try to make the story really believable.

So, for all these reasons (and perhaps more), many people were very very dissappointed with discovering that we've been lied to all along, and that Lost is just another dumb sci fi tv series.

For those who absolutely adored The Constant, I'm happy you are able to feel that way. However, there are some of us fans who for very solid reasons do not feel the same way. If you dismiss us and tell us that our feelings are not valid or justified, then you have basically overlooked some significant points that we are raising. I am not saying you have to agree with those of us who feel this way, but I do insist that you at least give us the respect to have legitimate complaints about why we feel the way we do about the direction Lost has taken. If you want us to take your opinions seriously in liking the time travel element in Lost, then you should reciprocate by allowing us the same privilege in disliking this element.

I was just thinking how it's nice that they're moving the plot along, and the new characters of the Freighties are a welcome addition. The forward motion is stalling a little what with the expectation (as voiced by Jack) that "in a few hours" they'd all be safe on the freighter, but it's turning into days and days, and time travel and subplots etc etc....but way better than the disjointedness and ridiculous plot of the beginning of Season 3.
The character development, however, has been a disappointment. Lost is a character drama, and I feel the main characters are stuck in idle on the same issues and not moving significantly forward (or backward):

Locke, as in Season 2, is struggling in a mind game with Ben, who mindfraks him at every turn, and is no closer to the secrets of the island than he was back in the hatch. He's finding out that having to take leadership is no picnic.
Jack's burden seems a little lighter what with everyone scattered, and seems able to leave things that are not in his control to others - like the time travel business with Daniel and Des, or the Tempest incident, accepting what's done is done. But he's still got people telling him half-truths and is unable to work out what the real story is with the freighter.
Juliet is still a flustered mess under the thumb of a powerful man, doing Ben's bidding halfway even though he's in captivity miles away. She seems the same powerless person she was in Not in Portland, where she was unable to act for herself because "Edmund would never let me."
Kate is still bouncing back and forth between Sawyer and Jack, unable to open up emotionally to either one. Jack gave her the perfect opening to tell him where he stood in relation to Sawyer with her in TOW, and she ducked the issue. Sawyer in Eggtown had to be the one to call her on her back and forth, and she ran from him too. I'm tired of the teenager in a woman's body and she needs to grow up. (BTW, making her insta-mommy in the FF does not count as growing up. We need to see a character change from the inside.)
Sawyer has been reduced to a boytoy, whipped by both Kate and Hurley it seems. Here he is with Locke who manipulated him into the biggest confrontation of his life in The Brig, and there are no repurcussions - no further exploration of whether killing Cooper has expunged his inner demons or made them louder. He's just eye candy and comic relief.
Ben is still the creepy manipulator, although it's been interesting to see how far his reach is in the outside world. But we really didn't need to know how creepily obsessed with Juliet he was, kthks. ME's acting carries off his scenes and makes them fascinating to watch, but so far we haven't seen this elusive "good guy" he kept claiming to be.

The saving grace of characters to watch has been Sayid, Daniel Faraday and Desmond, where with the unlikely help of Daniel, Desmond seemed to overcome his feeling of peril, and reconnected with Penny. Sayid is back in the saddle in the island action, and in his FF was so transformed into what he never wanted to be, that you wonder if he will find redemption or stay caught in his deal with the devil.

I agree with smilingshade - I'm nervous, but I've come this far so I'm not about to give up on it yet! I've invested too much time!

Though I must admit I have had to come to terms with the fact that it doesn't excite me anywhere near as much as it used to, things like the 4 toed statue (which has still not been explained!), finding out Ben was lying about who he was, the Others costumes....nothing grips me as much anymore. The Constant was an absolutely brilliant episode however, really great.

I suppose ultimately I think Lost feels a bit bogged down by all the questions, unexplained happenings, mythology etc. Which is a shame, but I'm not going anywhere, no matter how much I moan about it!

I'm OK with sci-fi, as long as they give some sort of explanation. Sci-fi aims at explaining everything with science, even if it's pseudoscience, it must make sense as a scientific explanation in that fictional universe. I was hoping that the smoke monster and other weird stuff would be explained with something other than magic...but I'm not sure anymore.

I am a life-long fan of science fiction. However, I am one of those sticklers about science fiction being based on HARD SCIENCE. There's science fiction that is based on real science, and there's science fiction that is based on made-up science. Here's some examples:

Real Science Fiction: Traveling in a space ship to some other solar system. Setting up a colony in space. Creating a society that is controlled by some computer/robot machine. Contact with a sentient alien race from another planet. Cloning an army of androids. These are all within the realm of possibility.

Made-Up Science Fiction: Time travel. Jumping through wormholes (and surviving). These are things that are - as of now - scientifically impossible.

This is not to say that we just haven't figured out how to travel through time, but it means that the entire concept is against the rules that govern how physics (as we understand it) works.

The same applies with magic. However, there's a big difference between magic and supernatural/paranormal experiences. Magic is something that is used like technology - the magician does his magic trick and it causes something to happen. Supernatural events, though, are things that come unbidden to the observer. The events we've seen on The Island are not based on magic (at least I hope not), but on either science fiction or paranormal/supernatural things. I hope that makes sense what I'm trying to say...

I like it, theres been a couple of duff episodes but 4 excellent ones.

Yes, because a flying smoke cloud was realistic. A hatch with a magic electormagnet thingy which can bring an airplane down was realistic. People seeing apparations of their dead loved ones was realistic. Desmond the sailor not being able to sail to Fiji was realistic. Locke walking again was realistic. Anyone surviving that plane crash was realistic.

Lost has always had huge heaping chunks of sci-fi / pseudoscience.

Frankly I am AMAZED that so many people can hate on the time travel for being too much when there were tons of ridiculous sci-fi issues in the areas of biology and physics already on the show. If you were fine with Lost at the end of Season 3, you should be fine with it now.

Thank you. Perfect post. I mean, really people, what did you think you were getting? I didn't quite care for the dustbusting ghostbuster but, heh, it's freaking Lost. I can hardly complain it's over the top because it's been over the top since Smokey took his first trapse through the jungle way back when.

I am a life-long fan of science fiction. However, I am one of those sticklers about science fiction being based on HARD SCIENCE. There's science fiction that is based on real science, and there's science fiction that is based on made-up science. Here's some examples:

Real Science Fiction: Traveling in a space ship to some other solar system. Setting up a colony in space. Creating a society that is controlled by some computer/robot machine. Contact with a sentient alien race from another planet. Cloning an army of androids. These are all within the realm of possibility.

Made-Up Science Fiction: Time travel. Jumping through wormholes (and surviving). These are things that are - as of now - scientifically impossible.

This is not to say that we just haven't figured out how to travel through time, but it means that the entire concept is against the rules that govern how physics (as we understand it) works.

The same applies with magic. However, there's a big difference between magic and supernatural/paranormal experiences. Magic is something that is used like technology - the magician does his magic trick and it causes something to happen. Supernatural events, though, are things that come unbidden to the observer. The events we've seen on The Island are not based on magic (at least I hope not), but on either science fiction or paranormal/supernatural things. I hope that makes sense what I'm trying to say... Good explanation, Saukkomies (and I love your name, too!). I guess I'm more of a hard sci-fi fan, but I could tolerate some made-up sci-fi elements it they served the story. It's the paranormal/supernatural stuff that annoys me. I'd be really happy if we found out that Miles can't really talk to ghosts, because they just don't exist.

Good explanation, Saukkomies (and I love your name, too!).

Kiitoksia, Kaïsa! :)
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Originally Posted by Room 22 - The Bathroom http://thefuselage.com/Threaded/images/FuselageGreen/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?p=1812758#post1812758)
Yes, because a flying smoke cloud was realistic. A hatch with a magic electormagnet thingy which can bring an airplane down was realistic. People seeing apparations of their dead loved ones was realistic. Desmond the sailor not being able to sail to Fiji was realistic. Locke walking again was realistic. Anyone surviving that plane crash was realistic.

Lost has always had huge heaping chunks of sci-fi / pseudoscience.

Frankly I am AMAZED that so many people can hate on the time travel for being too much when there were tons of ridiculous sci-fi issues in the areas of biology and physics already on the show. If you were fine with Lost at the end of Season 3, you should be fine with it now.

Thank you. Perfect post. I mean, really people, what did you think you were getting? I didn't quite care for the dustbusting ghostbuster but, heh, it's freaking Lost. I can hardly complain it's over the top because it's been over the top since Smokey took his first trapse through the jungle way back when.

I think that you ought to read the post I sent (http://thefuselage.com/Threaded/showpost.php?p=1812819&postcount=17)to this thread for an explanation as to why people are upset about time travel. It may come as a surprise, but many of the people who object to the use of time travel in Lost have some very solid reasons for doing so.
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I guess I'm more of a hard sci-fi fan, but I could tolerate some made-up sci-fi elements it they served the story.

I agree, Kaïsa. Good writing is a tricky business. When someone is writing fiction it is imperative that the creator of the work maintains the "suspended disbelief" of the audience in order to maintain the "magic" of the story - to keep the audience from being forced out of the storyline.

So, when using different types of fiction, it is important to maintain strict discipline in insuring that the audience is still there. The audience needs to know what to expect when encountering a particular genre of fiction. If a writer is creating a hard-core Sam Spade suspense novel, it would be wrong to suddenly have Sam Spade encounter a bunch of aliens at the end of the plot - unless this had somehow been hinted at earlier. People reading this kind of a novel would be suddenly thrown out of the plotline, destroying their suspended disbelief, and they'd be angry at being mistreated like this.

There are two general types of science fiction: the kind that relies on hard "real" science, and the kind that doesn't.

So anyway, so far we were led to believe by Lindelof that Lost was based on hard science. But now it has been shown that it is not. What "The Constant" did was to force many fans of the show out of their suspended disbelief. Suddenly we were shown that time travel is indeed part of the show, even though we'd been told it wasn't going to be. So what this did was to destroy the bond of trust between the creators and the audience. In other words: it is BAD WRITING.

I was just thinking how it's nice that they're moving the plot along, and the new characters of the Freighties are a welcome addition. The forward motion is stalling a little what with the expectation (as voiced by Jack) that "in a few hours" they'd all be safe on the freighter, but it's turning into days and days, and time travel and subplots etc etc....but way better than the disjointedness and ridiculous plot of the beginning of Season 3.
The character development, however, has been a disappointment. Lost is a character drama, and I feel the main characters are stuck in idle on the same issues and not moving significantly forward (or backward):

Locke, as in Season 2, is struggling in a mind game with Ben, who mindfraks him at every turn, and is no closer to the secrets of the island than he was back in the hatch. He's finding out that having to take leadership is no picnic.
Jack's burden seems a little lighter what with everyone scattered, and seems able to leave things that are not in his control to others - like the time travel business with Daniel and Des, or the Tempest incident, accepting what's done is done. But he's still got people telling him half-truths and is unable to work out what the real story is with the freighter.
Juliet is still a flustered mess under the thumb of a powerful man, doing Ben's bidding halfway even though he's in captivity miles away. She seems the same powerless person she was in Not in Portland, where she was unable to act for herself because "Edmund would never let me."
Kate is still bouncing back and forth between Sawyer and Jack, unable to open up emotionally to either one. Jack gave her the perfect opening to tell him where he stood in relation to Sawyer with her in TOW, and she ducked the issue. Sawyer in Eggtown had to be the one to call her on her back and forth, and she ran from him too. I'm tired of the teenager in a woman's body and she needs to grow up. (BTW, making her insta-mommy in the FF does not count as growing up. We need to see a character change from the inside.)
Sawyer has been reduced to a boytoy, whipped by both Kate and Hurley it seems. Here he is with Locke who manipulated him into the biggest confrontation of his life in The Brig, and there are no repurcussions - no further exploration of whether killing Cooper has expunged his inner demons or made them louder. He's just eye candy and comic relief.
Ben is still the creepy manipulator, although it's been interesting to see how far his reach is in the outside world. But we really didn't need to know how creepily obsessed with Juliet he was, kthks. ME's acting carries off his scenes and makes them fascinating to watch, but so far we haven't seen this elusive "good guy" he kept claiming to be.

The saving grace of characters to watch has been Sayid, Daniel Faraday and Desmond, where with the unlikely help of Daniel, Desmond seemed to overcome his feeling of peril, and reconnected with Penny. Sayid is back in the saddle in the island action, and in his FF was so transformed into what he never wanted to be, that you wonder if he will find redemption or stay caught in his deal with the devil.

Fantastic post! You’ve completely hit the nail on the head for me. So far I’ve enjoyed season 4 a lot more than season 3. The pace seems to have picked up and I feel like we are heading to an endpoint now. However, my only problem is character development. I feel like the characters are suffering in order to get the plots across. Sun and Jin have been almost completely sidelined while Claire hasn’t had much more screen time and she seems to have totally forgotten that her boyfriend Charlie just died. One of the things I loved about the earlier seasons was all the character interactions. I’m sure it’s a very fine line trying to keep a balance between furthering the plot and maintaining character development. The overall thing that keeps me watching is the human aspect and after 4 seasons I really root for all the characters involved. One of the best parts of the new season has been the seamless introduction of the new characters.

..... However, there are some of us fans who for very solid reasons do not feel the same way. If you dismiss us and tell us that our feelings are not valid or justified, then you have basically overlooked some significant points that we are raising.... If you want us to take your opinions seriously in liking the time travel element in Lost, then you should reciprocate by allowing us the same privilege in disliking this element.

***Mod edited*** I take your opinion seriously, I just think ***Mod edited***. You are probably a wonderful person, and I am not insulting you, I am critically analyzing your argument, your reason for disliking time travel yet accepting other equally (or more) ridiculous things.

Because there are people who claim to have experienced supernatural and paranormal phenomena in real life, using such things in a plotline such as Lost is not something that is necessarily beyond the realm of possibility.

However, nobody has ever experienced time travel. Indeed, it is probably unlikely they will, due to certain laws of physics that will not permit it. Because of this, using something like time travel significantly changes the nature of Lost - turning it into a story that "Might Be Possible", given our understanding of the universe at the moment, into a story that "Cannot Be Possible".

***Mod edited*** There is nothing even close to sufficient evidence to believe in the "paranormal" phenomena in real life that is shown on Lost. Nothing. Close. In addition, time travel, according to physicists, is actually possible (albeit unlikely). So the foundation of your whole argument is terrible.

To use time travel in a plotline is an irresponsible, stupid, and lazy shortcut to address plot gaps.

***Mod edited*** There are no rules with the paranormal, it can be used to explain away anything you want. Time travel at least has to fit into some kind of logic.

So in conclusion, ***Mod edited***

I'm OK with sci-fi, as long as they give some sort of explanation. Sci-fi aims at explaining everything with science, even if it's pseudoscience, it must make sense as a scientific explanation in that fictional universe. I was hoping that the smoke monster and other weird stuff would be explained with something other than magic...but I'm not sure anymore.

There is a very fine line between sci-fi explanations and paranormal ones. Take the Stargate TV series. In that universe there are ascended beings on other planes that act like gods. Sure, the show uses gobblegook explanations to make it seem sciency, but that element of the show is clearly paranormal - those ascended beings are indistinguishable from gods (and are in fact more powerful than the Greek Gods for example).

Also, I have to butcher the great Arthur C. Clarke quote.
Sufficiently advanced technology will be indistinguishable from magic.

There is NO WAY that most of the mysteries on Lost can be plausibly explained by Science. The smoke monster is impossible (unless it is technology from the year 3000 which, to us, would seem like magic anyway).

I am a life-long fan of science fiction. However, I am one of those sticklers about science fiction being based on HARD SCIENCE. There's science fiction that is based on real science, and there's science fiction that is based on made-up science.

If you are a stickler for hard science, ***Mod edited***. The smoke monster is impossible with today's technology. ***Mod edited***

The direction of the show is following a strict plot line.

Think about it. Season 1. plane crashes, everyone wonders why and then they must find a way to survive. Season 2, they find a way to survive and in the meantime they find themselves dealing with other issues in the Others, while developing the characters further and introducing new ones. Season 3, they continue to struggle witht he Others plus learn about their new surroundings, and eventually try to take a stand against their new enemies, and eventually, find a way to help them get off the island. Season 4, they are now showing us exactly how they get off the island. Season 5 will be why they need to get back and Season 6 will be how they get back.

The progression of the show is simple and has a lucid plot. What they have done is throw in elements of the show that make it complex and INTERESTING, hence why every one of us is here.

And for those who think TPTB have lied to us. That simply is not the case. Do you actually think they would have told us that certain things would actually be used to tell the story way back in season 1. NO. They would have given their secret away and no one would be drawn to the mystery and intrigue of the show.

They did not lie to us, what they were saying is that TIME TRAVEL has not been relevant thus far...back in season 1. If they told us, yes there will be time travel in the future, then we would have all said that is the answer and they would have lost TONS OF VIEWERS.

If you do not like time travel as part of this show, fine, but please dont spin TPTB words and tell us they were never going to use timetravel as way of explaining all of this. And one last thing, TIME TRAVEL ISNT EXPLAINING ALL OF THIS, IT WAS USED IN ONE CHARACTERS PLOT AND IT DID NOT AFFECT THE DYNAMIC OF ANY OTHER CHARACTER IN THE SHOW. They all got lost, they are all still on the island, and they are all in the same exact boat as before the revelation of time traveling.

***Mod edited*** I take your opinion seriously, I just think ***Mod edited***. You are probably a wonderful person, and I am not insulting you, I am critically analyzing your argument, your reason for disliking time travel yet accepting other equally (or more) ridiculous things.



***Mod edited*** There is nothing even close to sufficient evidence to believe in the "paranormal" phenomena in real life that is shown on Lost. Nothing. Close. In addition, time travel, according to physicists, is actually possible (albeit unlikely). So the foundation of your whole argument is terrible.



***Mod edited*** There are no rules with the paranormal, it can be used to explain away anything you want. Time travel at least has to fit into some kind of logic.

So in conclusion, ***Mod edited***..

If you are a stickler for hard science, ***Mod edited***. The smoke monster is impossible with today's technology. ***Mod edited***


Are you **edited** KIDDING ME? Since when is it considered baiting to critically analyze another person's argument? I went out of my way to say that I am talking about the argument, not the person behind it. And I gave clear and logical reasons for why I thought the argument was ridiculous.

This is blatant overly sensitive and over zealous moderation, and I suspect it is because the moderator does not share the same opinion of the paranormal that I do.

Truly a sad state of affairs here.

Are you **edited** KIDDING ME? Since when is it considered baiting to critically analyze another person's argument? I went out of my way to say that I am talking about the argument, not the person behind it. And I gave clear and logical reasons for why I thought the argument was ridiculous.

This is blatant overly sensitive and over zealous moderation, and I suspect it is because the moderator does not share the same opinion of the paranormal that I do.

Truly a sad state of affairs here.

let's set things straight, YOU are the problem here. you continue to harass other members of this thread with your rudeness and attacks. your post was edited to remove the overly zealous insults to the posters. your logic was to belittle and abuse not to clearly state your position without such insulting behaviour.

i have not read your theory, so i can say without a doubt that it has had nothing to do with how your post was edited...i did not edit your post. i did, however, give you points for your abusive post. this is not the first time that you seem rather confused over being edited or warned. perhaps you should consider how you would feel had someone else "spoken" to you in such a rude condescending manner.

before you continue down this path, you should note that the moderators do not take sides in any way when performing the moderation duty. we remove the rude parts of a post and try to salvage what can be saved. if what you claimed, about the moderators, was true, then we would have simply removed your entire post as that is much easier than taking the time to edit out bits and pieces.

As I already informed you, I started a post in the moderation forum once I found it. Shouldn't we discuss this there? This is my last off topic post on moderation in this thread....

So, if you wish to argue that I am harassing members (instead of critically analyzing their arguments) please do so in the thread I started as that is the proper place for all this isn't it? I welcome a discussion there, so that Starrox can point out what in fact was wrong with my post. As of now, there is no record of my original post, and I fear Starrox will wave their hands around and say I was "baiting" and I will have no recourse. But we shall see in that moderation thread.

The direction of the show is following a strict plot line.

Think about it. Season 1. plane crashes, everyone wonders why and then they must find a way to survive. Season 2, they find a way to survive and in the meantime they find themselves dealing with other issues in the Others, while developing the characters further and introducing new ones. Season 3, they continue to struggle witht he Others plus learn about their new surroundings, and eventually try to take a stand against their new enemies, and eventually, find a way to help them get off the island. Season 4, they are now showing us exactly how they get off the island. Season 5 will be why they need to get back and Season 6 will be how they get back.

The progression of the show is simple and has a lucid plot. What they have done is throw in elements of the show that make it complex and INTERESTING, hence why every one of us is here.

And for those who think TPTB have lied to us. That simply is not the case. Do you actually think they would have told us that certain things would actually be used to tell the story way back in season 1. NO. They would have given their secret away and no one would be drawn to the mystery and intrigue of the show.

They did not lie to us, what they were saying is that TIME TRAVEL has not been relevant thus far...back in season 1. If they told us, yes there will be time travel in the future, then we would have all said that is the answer and they would have lost TONS OF VIEWERS.

If you do not like time travel as part of this show, fine, but please dont spin TPTB words and tell us they were never going to use timetravel as way of explaining all of this. And one last thing, TIME TRAVEL ISNT EXPLAINING ALL OF THIS, IT WAS USED IN ONE CHARACTERS PLOT AND IT DID NOT AFFECT THE DYNAMIC OF ANY OTHER CHARACTER IN THE SHOW. They all got lost, they are all still on the island, and they are all in the same exact boat as before the revelation of time traveling.

My main problem is that each Season is so totally different, that the show keeps appealing to different groups of people. Back in season 1 it pretty much seemed like the smoke monster was almost going to be 'magical', the others really were as they were portrayed, etc. I went through the first half of season 1 thinking there was more or less a dinosaur running through the jungle!

That was the feeling that season 1 left me. Then season 2 arrived, and it seemed more likely that there would be some more scientific explanation than that. The season 2 finale also kind of ruined the idea that everyone was on the plane for a reason other than coincidence, because it came out that Desmond just happened to crash it at that moment. Also now we first realize that the psychic from season 1 must have been perfectly legit (can anyone see any way out of this?)

Season 3 comes along and it comes out that the Others are just regular dudes, performing experiments on kids or whatever. It's clear that if the smoke monster isn't nanobots or whatever, then it's still gunna be some sort of scientifically explained phenomenon. Then, just as it seems as though everything is going to have a real scientific explanation, Desmond can see the future.

So we basically went from mysterious and mystical, maybe almost magical, to hardcore science fiction (the show is now listed in the TV Guide not under drama, but Sci-Fi), and then season 4 comes along, and we get all the magnetism stuff, which I personally get bored listening to, and some creepy guy who can talk to dead people. The Constant was one of my favorite episodes, but the idea of having a 'constant' in itself is kind of dumb. Also, if they get too far into the blackmailing/huge rich corporations/secret societies back in the US, it's going to be another show entirely. I first feared this after The Lost Experience 2 years ago, and now it's finally coming to light. Rewatch season 1 of LOST, and tell me there's room for corporations in this show.

I don't mean to be overly negative - LOST has been my favorite show for the past 3+ years, and unless the rest of the season is like TOW, will continue to be so until it ends. However, I wish the seasons ran a little more closely together. I feel like I would have enjoyed season 2 a lot more had there been even the SLIGHTEST hint of 'dharma' or 'hanso' somewhere in season 1. I guess my main problem is the fact that the transition between new concepts on the show are done so horribly. Season 1 did not at all predict seasons 2, 3, or 4. Season 2 kind of sets up season 3, but now Season 4 is all over the place again.

I understand that a show about 'people surviving on an island' could not last more than a few seasons without a few new elements thrown in. But what happened to the mythology of the show? What about Adam and Eve, the black and white stones, the dark territory? I mean even season 2, when there were hidden things and maps and flashes that we could go on and dissect milliseconds of video. That all seems to be gone now. And again, if season 5 is going to be something totally different, at least foreshadow it, better than just throwing hanso and dharma on us from left field. Did I expect them to post huge DHARMA signs everywhere? Of course not, but at the very least, do something like making an obvious showing of stop signs or something, to at least foreshadow the octagonal shape of the logo, just to show us that actually do have a plan...

On a side note, the only reason that I believe them when they say that time travel won't explain everything, is because I'm fairly certain I remember one of the writers/producers being quoted as saying that they were going to kill of Desmond, except the fans really loved him. In that case, he probably isn't all that significant to the mythology of the show as a whole, so the timetraveling isn't that important to the storyline.

I applaud your post :clapping: , metallidevils, and it was summed up for me with this:


Rewatch season 1 of LOST, and tell me there's room for corporations in this show.



Exactly.

It changed theme several times and still doesn't know if it's mystical, sci-fi, conspiracy, or god forbid (and what I fear) a hodgepodge of all three. Please don't give us another dark cabal of chain-smoking men around the world bent on world domination, a la Alias or the X-Files. Heroes lifted that so recently it would be embarrassing.
I'd prefer the forces behind the weirdness to turn out to be fate and maybe unique properties of extreme magnetism. With Widmore involved, that's getting less likely.

I applaud your post :clapping: , metallidevils, and it was summed up for me with this:



Exactly.

It changed theme several times and still doesn't know if it's mystical, sci-fi, conspiracy, or god forbid (and what I fear) a hodgepodge of all three. Please don't give us another dark cabal of chain-smoking men around the world bent on world domination, a la Alias or the X-Files. Heroes lifted that so recently it would be embarrassing.
I'd prefer the forces behind the weirdness to turn out to be fate and maybe unique properties of extreme magnetism. With Widmore involved, that's getting less likely.

Thanks! I think your post sums up my thoughts as well and I completely agree with you. I can't tell you how much I cringed when that angry Asian guy was like "I want 3.2 million dollars!" That was the turning point for me I think. Obviously its JJ and Carlton and Damon and whomever's show, but I think what they're missing is that when season 1 aired, they attracted a very specific audience. Throwing curveballs like this is not the best idea. If they knew it was going to turn out like this all along, they should have tried attracting a different demographic from the start.

They really need to avoid disaster like Heroes season 2, which was essentially unwatchable after the amazing season 1.

I really like how S4 is going so far. It started off really superb but it's after TOW, I hope it gets back on track. I would like them to just get back to on the island, trekking about in the woods. I don't have a problem with flashbacks, but I don't see what TOW had anything really to do with the plot line instead of it being a filler.

Season 1 was outstanding, nothing can compare to that season. I hope they can slowly bring it back to that type of show where that was a lot more suspense and mystery overall in everything.

I really like how S4 is going so far. It started off really superb but it's after TOW, I hope it gets back on track. I would like them to just get back to on the island, trekking about in the woods. I don't have a problem with flashbacks, but I don't see what TOW had anything really to do with the plot line instead of it being a filler.

Season 1 was outstanding, nothing can compare to that season. I hope they can slowly bring it back to that type of show where that was a lot more suspense and mystery overall in everything.

Season 4 is just...weird. I REALLY liked 4 out of the 6 episodes so far, 4 of the best IMO. However the whole just seems so much less than its parts.

Maybe I just have a sour taste in my mouth because of the two that I didn't like. I try thinking about season 4 as a whole and the things that come to my mind are Kate demanding to know if the people on the boat knew she was wanted for murder, Locke going down and being manipulated by Ben countless times, and Charlotte and Faraday inexplicably refusing to tell anyone about their operation. The highpoints have been very high, but the low points have been extremely low, and somewhat alarming.

I have to agree with the poster(s) saying they don't know what direction this show is following anymore.

I had huge expectations for the fourth season, with the new structure promised by the producers and the way the cast and crew kept praising the importance to have an end date set to really move the story forward.

But although I've enjoyed some of the episodes so far, and I like the way they've handled characters like Sayid and Desmond, I feel let down on almost all the fronts.

The plot: they keep introducing new questions and complicate things without answering/resolving the old ones, and for old ones I mean something like the main theme of the previous season - Juliet's episode was a great opportunity to tell us something more about the Others world, but the only new bit of info the FB gave us is that Ben is romantically obsessed with Juliet.

Recycled storylines: Locke is once again being pwned by Ben like in S2 (talk about not leaning a lesson) experiencing doubts and frustration and not getting the right "instructions" he's looking for; we have new characters introduced and after the Tailies, you never know if you should invest in those or not (although I like the 4 "Boaties"); the Losties separated in small groups for one reason or the other like at the beginning of S3 (and this time the division is so dramatic that people move from one place to the other like nothing); Hurley and Sawyer play games and are used as comic relief as in the central part of S3; the love triangle/square being in the exact same situation (a mess) it was last season; Claire being there just to look pretty and hold Aaron.

The characters: I don't keep it a secret that I'm a huge Sawyer fan, and I'm beyond disappointed by what I've seen so far. I was waiting for a proper resolution of the Cooper thing, to see him dealing with the anger I saw him carry around in the S3 finale, but I could understand the character having to wait his "turn" to get proper screentime, if I hadn't to see him used as comic relief or considered nothing more than Kate's love interest. He also seems to get how lost Locke is, and knows Ben will play them all in the end, and it's ridiculous that after showing those convinctions, he's playing games with Hurley without a care in the world! He is the only strong figure in Team Locke besides John himself, and he only cares about "playing house"?! And with the emotional baggage he has? That's ridiculous. I got it, he won't receive good material until the second part of the season, once the whole Oceanic Six theme has been completely addressed (that's why they're spending so much time on Team Jack), but is there the need to insult the nature/feelings/intelligence of the character in the meanwhile?
The only consolation (?) is that Jack, Kate, the already mentioned Locke.. all the big characters who are getting enough screentime, haven't been written properly anyway, and keep being sacrificed in name of the plot.

Which is my main reason to complain: I can take anything - time travel, ghosts, hardcore sci-fi... magic - as long as the characters are respected.

The characters: I don't keep it a secret that I'm a huge Sawyer fan, and I'm beyond disappointed by what I've seen so far. I was waiting for a proper resolution of the Cooper thing, to see him dealing with the anger I saw him carry around in the S3 finale, but I could understand the character having to wait his "turn" to get proper screentime, if I hadn't to see him used as comic relief or considered nothing more than Kate's love interest. He also seems to get how lost Locke is, and knows Ben will play them all in the end, and it's ridiculous that after showing those convinctions, he's playing games with Hurley without a care in the world! He is the only strong figure in Team Locke besides John himself, and he only cares about "playing house"?! And with the emotional baggage he has? That's ridiculous. I got it, he won't receive good material until the second part of the season, once the whole Oceanic Six theme has been completely addressed (that's why they're spending so much time on Team Jack), but is there the need to insult the nature/feelings/intelligence of the character in the meanwhile?
The only consolation (?) is that Jack, Kate, the already mentioned Locke.. all the big characters who are getting enough screentime, haven't been written properly anyway, and keep being sacrificed in name of the plot.

Which is my main reason to complain: I can take anything - time travel, ghosts, hardcore sci-fi... magic - as long as the characters are respected.

I share your same thoughts Hawthorn. For me, I am more interested in the character developments and want them to grow as the show grows. But I do agree with you that I think that are leaving out some great characters that should be shown more screen time. Claire, Jin, and Sun right off the back definitely. I must admit, I'm not the biggest fan of Sawyer but I surely can't disagree with what you are saying. Sawyer is a huge point of the series and so far this season he hasn't been used to the best of his abilities besides playing house.

But no need to worry just yet, we still have a whole other half of the season left and you just know that he, along with everyone else, are going to be huge players.

Whenever people mention this;


Way back years ago we were told by Lindelof that they were not going to use time travel. This was taken literally by many Lost fans. Now, it is possible to take what Lindelof said and manipulate it and make it sound like he didn't really mean to say that, but if that was the case, then why didn't he clarify his statement? Why did he and Carlton and Abrams lead us on in believing that Lost was not going to incorporate time travel in its storyline?


I always remember back to the first podcast;


Carlton Cuse: You're not going to tell them about the time travel, are you?
Damon Lindelof: No, no, I'm not going to, in fact, I'm gonna go back in time and prevent you from having said that.

When was it said that time travel was not a part of the story?

When was it said that time travel was not a part of the story?

In this article from the middle of season 1: http://www.scifi.com/scifiwire/handheld/30246.html

Damon is quoted as saying:
"We're still trying to be ... firmly ensconced in the world of science fact," he said in an interview. "I don't think we've shown anything on the show yet ... that has no rational explanation in the real world that we all function within. We certainly hint at psychic phenomena, happenstance and ... things being in a place where they probably shouldn't be. But nothing is flat-out impossible. There are no spaceships. There isn't any time travel."

This is open to interpretation. People put a lot of stock in those last 5 words, assuming that would apply for the entire series. But, because he used the word "yet", my take is that his entire quote was only in reference to what had been already shown in season 1.

I don't mean to be overly negative - LOST has been my favorite show for the past 3+ years, and unless the rest of the season is like TOW, will continue to be so until it ends. However, I wish the seasons ran a little more closely together. I feel like I would have enjoyed season 2 a lot more had there been even the SLIGHTEST hint of 'dharma' or 'hanso' somewhere in season 1. I guess my main problem is the fact that the transition between new concepts on the show are done so horribly. Season 1 did not at all predict seasons 2, 3, or 4. Season 2 kind of sets up season 3, but now Season 4 is all over the place again.
I see it completely differently. It was the absolute unexpectedness of the whole DHARMA thing when we first saw the film in season two that made it so absolutely amazing. As much as I loved the pilot and the whole first season, it was that moment that may have solidified me as a permanent fan. It showed that there was a tremendous depth of story here, that we had only scarcely started to learn about.

I came to Lost late, and I saw the first 2 1/2 seasons on video, one or two episodes a night. (And let me tell you, THAT is the way to watch lost. None of this waiting days or months between episodes. I'm trying to gather the will-power to wait and watch season 5 all at once like that.) And at least from that perspective, the seasons and themes not only flowed together, but evolved in a brilliant way. If the show had been as static as you seem to prefer it, I doubt I would find it nearly as interesting.
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It changed theme several times and still doesn't know if it's mystical, sci-fi, conspiracy, or god forbid (and what I fear) a hodgepodge of all three.
Not exactly the word I would choose, but of course it's a "hodgepodge" of all three. They established that theme in season 1.

John: "You see, I think that's why you and I don't always see eye to eye, Jack. Because you're a man of science."
Jack: "And what does that make you."
John: "Me -- I'm a man of faith."

The Island's mysteries can be explained in mystical terms or in scientific terms. Neither is wrong, and neither is complete. I think in the end viewers will tend to similarly divide into different camps regarding which terms to think of the island in. If they do indeed accomplish that, it will been a work of genius. I think we're in the scientific part of the arc now, and I think in the final two seasons we'll arc back more into the mystical realm.

I see it completely differently. It was the absolute unexpectedness of the whole DHARMA thing when we first saw the film in season two that made it so absolutely amazing. As much as I loved the pilot and the whole first season, it was that moment that may have solidified me as a permanent fan. It showed that there was a tremendous depth of story here, that we had only scarcely started to learn about.

I came to Lost late, and I saw the first 2 1/2 seasons on video, one or two episodes a night. (And let me tell you, THAT is the way to watch lost. None of this waiting days or months between episodes. I'm trying to gather the will-power to wait and watch season 5 all at once like that.) And at least from that perspective, the seasons and themes not only flowed together, but evolved in a brilliant way. If the show had been as static as you seem to prefer it, I doubt I would find it nearly as interesting.

Youre right on the money there, Pythagoras. I came to LOST late as well, and watched it on DVD (at my leisure, but pretty damn fast). It's so much better when you don't have to wait...it's almost as if that's how the show is meant to be viewed. On DVD, as a package... one sweet, long-*** movie.

Youre right on the money there, Pythagoras. I came to LOST late as well, and watched it on DVD (at my leisure, but pretty damn fast). It's so much better when you don't have to wait...it's almost as if that's how the show is meant to be viewed. On DVD, as a package... one sweet, long-*** movie.
Indeed! Maybe I should try bathing myself in electromagnetic radiation at 11 Hz for 2.341 seconds, to see if I can mentally travel to the future and watch the whole thing at once without the wait.

A lot of works that we now think of as whole works were published serially, including most of Dickens' novels. "Our Mutual Friend" was published in monthly installments over 19 months. Like another story I could mention, it is complex, with many twists and turns. And guess what Dickens was accused of by his critics? Yup, "making it up as he goes along."

I have really enjoyed season 4 so far, though I didn't think The Other Woman was up to par with the previous five episodes. I like how each season has a slightly different feel from the others. It gives each season it's own arc which expands the overall story.

I love how there were mysteries introduced so early and that we still get some answers to them now that we've reached a certain point in the plot. For example, I loved how the Looking Glass was introduced and solved the mystery of the cable introduced in episode 7 (I think). There was no way to explain the mystery of the cable at the time without knowing about the hatch, the Others, DHARMA, and the electromagnetic properties surrounding the island. I think this is how a lot of the mysteries of the show work. For me, that is one of the reasons I love the show. It is a mystery show. When we think we have it figured out, something drastically changes our perception. I was blown away by the finale last year and love the way the story has changed. I could not have imagined season 4 would be about a freighter and imminent rescue and having flash forwards.

As far as the direction this season, I agree there could be a little more character development and/or interaction. It was strange not having Claire comment on Charlie after the premiere. However, I like the new characters and the corporation angle doesn't bother me because for one it doesn't seem like that is what the whole show is about but also it has been hinted at for some time. Way back in season one, there was a sense of some sort of conspiracy. I got the impression that Jack's dad, Claire's psychic, Mr Paik all seemed to have some sort of connection with leading the characters to the Island (directly or indirectly).

I really don't think the show would work if every season was just like season 1. That season was setting up all the characters and some of the island mysteries. But more importantly, it was setting up how the characters would survive on this island, due to it's natural survival problems and the "super"natural survival problems. Characters would sit around and talk about home, or food they missed. As the plot has thickened, I don't think that would be a great show 4 seasons in.

TPTB have said they have the main story points already figured out. Everyone has demanded and questioned this from the beginning. Maybe the main story isn't for everyone, but it's not like they can change it too much to please everyone. Otherwise, everyone would still call foul and say they are making it up as they go. They have made changes here and there but I think the blueprint for the show has always and continued to be in place from the beginning. That includes rescue and possible conspiracy elements.

Just my opinion of course :)

I'm loving it. Eggtown and The Other Woman are the only less than great episodes this season so far, for me. Eggtown's on island stuff was good, but as usual the Kate-centric stuff bored me. The Other Woman had some good parts but seemed to need more polish or maybe one more rewrite. Overall, I'm very pleased with the season and its direction.

I see it completely differently. It was the absolute unexpectedness of the whole DHARMA thing when we first saw the film in season two that made it so absolutely amazing. As much as I loved the pilot and the whole first season, it was that moment that may have solidified me as a permanent fan. It showed that there was a tremendous depth of story here, that we had only scarcely started to learn about.

I didn't love the first season the first time I watched it. I was really bored at the end of the season, thinking that if this is all there is, I can't be bothered to watch. It was the first scene of Man Of Science, Man Of Faith that changed everything. It proved that Lost can change radically, to show things from totally different perspectives, to develop constantly. This is pretty rare in TV, proof of "tremendous depth of story", like Pythagoras99 put it.

But of course there are problems with this kind of storytelling, we never know what to expect. I'll have to see if the other elements of the story (I have nothing against global conspiracies, cool!) can make up for the crappy supernatural stuff.

I think things are going a little to fast it feels rushed, plus in earlier seasons pretty much every angle got some sort of movement in each episode, but in this season episodes are very one person centric. For example we've had zero interaction between Alex and her mother, or Sawyer is just used as a device to move on Ben's arc etc etc...

Kiitoksia, Kaïsa! :)
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I think that you ought to read the post I sent (http://thefuselage.com/Threaded/showpost.php?p=1812819&postcount=17)to this thread for an explanation as to why people are upset about time travel. It may come as a surprise, but many of the people who object to the use of time travel in Lost have some very solid reasons for doing so.
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I agree, Kaïsa. Good writing is a tricky business. When someone is writing fiction it is imperative that the creator of the work maintains the "suspended disbelief" of the audience in order to maintain the "magic" of the story - to keep the audience from being forced out of the storyline.

So, when using different types of fiction, it is important to maintain strict discipline in insuring that the audience is still there. The audience needs to know what to expect when encountering a particular genre of fiction. If a writer is creating a hard-core Sam Spade suspense novel, it would be wrong to suddenly have Sam Spade encounter a bunch of aliens at the end of the plot - unless this had somehow been hinted at earlier. People reading this kind of a novel would be suddenly thrown out of the plotline, destroying their suspended disbelief, and they'd be angry at being mistreated like this.

There are two general types of science fiction: the kind that relies on hard "real" science, and the kind that doesn't.

So anyway, so far we were led to believe by Lindelof that Lost was based on hard science. But now it has been shown that it is not. What "The Constant" did was to force many fans of the show out of their suspended disbelief. Suddenly we were shown that time travel is indeed part of the show, even though we'd been told it wasn't going to be. So what this did was to destroy the bond of trust between the creators and the audience. In other words: it is BAD WRITING.
Metallidevils, MOS6, Hawthorne, Pythag, Saukkomies, Kaisa, Workingmom, DocLover1, I think we are all in agreement that character development and great writing forms the charisma of this show. Alas, it is a show, and I think that the brilliant fans contribute an infinite array of probabilities to bring all the elements together. It has been a joy reading your entries,The Watchmen, and other works of art the audience has introduced.

I still love the show, but I find that I'm really only fascinated by the on-island stuff and the continued flashbacks, when they still happen. I like the freighter team a lot, especially Daniel and Frank. The only problem is that I'm having a little trouble getting into the flash-forwards. The future scenes feel too "big" to me, while the first few seasons felt "smaller" when it was just the survivors, the Others, and the island.

I get that just about everyone is miserable now because they left the island, and Locke was right that they weren't supposed to leave. But now I just want their future selves to get back to the island as quickly as possible, because it really DOES feel like this future wasn't "supposed" to happen.

I think I remember reading an interview from some one at Bad Robot, who said that Season 4 would answer many of the questions we've had from other Seasons. Well, some of them have already been answer. But, what they didn't tell us was that each of these mysteries would be replaced with about a dozen more.

I understand that the writer's must move the story along, but I would like some serious Island history explained before this season is over. The Orchid. The Four-Toed Statue. The Black Rock crew. Dharma. The Original Inhabitants. Smokey. The Temple. The Whispers. Spooky Dead People/manifestations. Any three of these and I'll be happy. But the season's half over. I don't think it is going to happen.

Well, I did hear that they had to wait until they could get Nestor Carbonell back from CBS after Cane was canceled. Fortunately I've been reading he's available now, so we'll probably be seeing the Temple by the end of the season.

The season started off with some strong episodes, but the past two episodes have been very weak. And with a shortened season, there is really not much room for chaff.

I also have to say that I have been pretty disappointed that the season is half over and in a very real sense, nothing has changed since the end of season 3. If someone somehow was in a coma between the end of last season and right now, and started watching again, they could pick up with very little problem. People are still on the island waiting for the boat to do something, or are against the notion. Jason is no more revealed. Ben is unchanged from the end of last season.

If you think about it, most of what has actually happened on the island has been people marking time or wasting time. The "action," so to speak, has largely occurred in the flashforwards.

I honestly have been tremendously surprised they have dragged out this whole freighter thing for so long. I thought it would take about two episodes, but it seems likely to take the entire season.

The season started off with some strong episodes, but the past two episodes have been very weak. And with a shortened season, there is really not much room for chaff.

I also have to say that I have been pretty disappointed that the season is half over and in a very real sense, nothing has changed since the end of season 3. If someone somehow was in a coma between the end of last season and right now, and started watching again, they could pick up with very little problem. People are still on the island waiting for the boat to do something, or are against the notion. Jason is no more revealed. Ben is unchanged from the end of last season.

If you think about it, most of what has actually happened on the island has been people marking time or wasting time. The "action," so to speak, has largely occurred in the flashforwards.

I honestly have been tremendously surprised they have dragged out this whole freighter thing for so long. I thought it would take about two episodes, but it seems likely to take the entire season.

It's true the freighter story line hasn't moved that much so far, but please don't forget the Oceanic 6 story line. We have been given a ton of information through the flash forwards and this is in fact the arc of the season. People seem to forget that the story of Lost does not only mean what is happening on the Island (or the freighter in this case). Plus, this is no different than previous seasons. By episode 7 of last year, Eko had died, and Kate and Sawyer had just left Hydra island. By episode 7 of the 2nd season, the had just seen the Other 48 Days. In essence, not much plot progression, but in the overall story lines of the season, important nonetheless.

The flashforwards have carried the entire season, whereas the island happenings are dull at best. It's different saying that the plots didn't start up til after episode 7 in previous seasons, because that's only a 1/3rd of the season.

I think S4 is brilliant, whats there not to like:
- No pointless flashbacks.
- Jaw dropping flash-forwards
- The new characters, especially Faraday (Jeremy Davies is a brilliant addition to the cast)
- Eventually getting some answers!
- The 'unstuck in time' storyline is brilliant
- Michael returning
- The Oceanic 6

So far S4 has had a consistent high standard ('The Other Woman' not so much, but it was still good!) which I pray continues througout the remainder of the season, now that its been cut down to 5 epi's I'm sure it will be tight!

There have, in my mind, only been two episodes worth writing home about (Confirmed Dead and The Constant), and one of them -- or both, depending on how you look at it -- is a great big slap in the face to a lot of fans, as Saukkomies has explained quite well.

Overall, I'm just really disappointed with the way things are going.

- The love triangle nonsense wore out its welcome a long time ago.
- Jack and Kate, the "anchor characters," are now nothing more than bumbling morons -- and Sawyer's not much better.
- The Oceanic 6 business is all well and good, but not as a whole season's central question. The question should have been answered within the span of the first two or three episodes -- as in, introduce the six right up front then go about showing how they each managed to get off the island.
- Continuity. What happened to it?

I could go on and on. I will say this, though: Davies/Faraday's been a revelation.

Well check out the Constant poll... in truth not many people didn't like the time-travel. :)

I think S4 is very good so far. No direction? Not sure what people are talking about.

Seriously! It seems to me that the vast majority of people are really loving S4, and feel like it's redeemed itself for the disaster that was the first half of S3 (the second half of S3 was much better).

I'm LOVING S4... I think it's vintage LOST, but the stakes are being raised every episode.

ETA: Love the additions of Faraday and Gault. Awesomeness.

I think S4 has been the best one yet. They have reinvented the style of the way the story is told. There have also been a lot of good slaps (Dead Charlie slapping Hurley, Kate giving Sawyer a crack and Juliet gettin' bopped by Sun) Any others?

I have a feeling that this season's cliff hanger will be a biggie, in the who shot J.R. Caliber

I thought they were going to strictly focus on the characters we know and love. Where are Locke and Sawyer and Ben and Hurley???? Please don't waste our time with Juliet having an affair, or snobby Redhead flashbacks, not unless they have our main characters around. Did I hear there is another Kate centric episode? Blah. Personally I am sick of her manipulation and self serving attitude. I thought Locke was bad...

I see it completely differently. It was the absolute unexpectedness of the whole DHARMA thing when we first saw the film in season two that made it so absolutely amazing. As much as I loved the pilot and the whole first season, it was that moment that may have solidified me as a permanent fan. It showed that there was a tremendous depth of story here, that we had only scarcely started to learn about.

This continues my streak of agreeing with you. One thing I love about the show is that we uncover mysteries as the survivors so, with just a little extra. We've gotten to see flashbacks that they all don't know about, but that just makes it more interesting to me. And now we are seeing some of them in the future, which just makes my mind race even more. Now I we can compare the past to the present to the future, and also theorize about everything in between. I love that the show has this depth.

I came to Lost late, and I saw the first 2 1/2 seasons on video, one or two episodes a night. (And let me tell you, THAT is the way to watch lost. None of this waiting days or months between episodes. I'm trying to gather the will-power to wait and watch season 5 all at once like that.) And at least from that perspective, the seasons and themes not only flowed together, but evolved in a brilliant way. If the show had been as static as you seem to prefer it, I doubt I would find it nearly as interesting.I too came into Lost late. I'd heard of it when it premiered because at the time I watched Alias. Well, a few episodes into the second season of Lost I ended up catching the last few minutes because I turned on ABC early as not to miss Alias. I was pretty much instantly hooked. I had a whole season to catch up on, but I continued watching Season 2. Then I went back and watched Season 1, It was a weird way to watch, I know, but since then I've gone through the first three seasons all consecutively, twice. Not counting Season 4, I've seen each episode of this show at least four times. I can't get enough of this show.

I honestly don't see how the show could be just about people surviving on the island anymore. It seems to me that the idea behind the show was who these people are and where they are. We are slowly finding out both. Sure I have complaints, but I have faith that where certain characters are lacking, those stories will be accounted for. Maybe the fact that Sawyer doesn't seem affected by killing Cooper anymore will come into play. Maybe it's all an act right now and we will see him meltdown. Now that Kate is gone back to the beach I think we will see Sawyer take a turn for the worse. We shall see.

Did I hear there is another Kate centric episode? Blah. Personally I am sick of her manipulation and self serving attitude. I thought Locke was bad...

Crap, seriously? I'm pretty sick of Kate as well. Initially I liked her, but that started to go downhill and then in Season 3 when she betrays the trust of Sayid and them to try and get back in good with Jack was where I lost all faith in her character. Tabula Rasa, hah. I'd rather not see another Kate episode for a while.

I like it! The show is moving at a faster clip, and like we're getting a lot of answes. It also sets up the direction of next season really well -- this season is about getting off the island, and next season will be about getting back, and those left behind. It also plays well with the pattern the season have developed - each season pulls the focus of the story back a little, giving us a broader and broader picture of events.

I like it! The show is moving at a faster clip, and like we're getting a lot of answes. It also sets up the direction of next season really well -- this season is about getting off the island, and next season will be about getting back, and those left behind. It also plays well with the pattern the season have developed - each season pulls the focus of the story back a little, giving us a broader and broader picture of events.

Yup. I've gotta say that I'm consistently being surprised by how quickly things are progressing this season. We're actually being given answers, and even though more questions are arising, it really feels like we're moving toward something.

I love the way this season has played out. Other than two dull episodes (The Other Woman and Ji Yeon, both of which STILL provided great information about the island and what's going on with our characters, even if they were boring), this season has been running on a plane just as high (if not higher) than season 1. Whereas in seasons 2 and 3, I felt like I was simply running on autopilot watching the show play out, in this season, I'm EXCITED about Lost again. Most of the TV talk among my friends centers around Lost. My week pretty much revolves around the show as well (though, admittedly, the strike helped to facilitate that some).

As far as the pace is concerned, I don't bother worrying about it. I've entrusted Darlton with my viewership, and I believe that they will continue to deliver for me in a way that will ultimately be satisfying and gratifying.

If you take into account that the Lost higher ups have said that they are
influenced by King's Dark Tower series and the Watchmen graphic novel,
you can see those elements in Lost. Scifi, fantasy and horror were always going to
be in play. Suspending disbelief is something I've had to do since the depiction of the
crash of 815. No one could survive the breakup of a jumbo jet at 2000 + feet in the air.
Most aviation people will tell you that's a given. Also I believe we've been given a lot of
facts and a lot of misdirection! We're basically halfway through the series so the big
reveal is a ways off. I believe we're getting small reveals like building blocks
surrounding by noise to keep us busy looking at things that don't matter. The fact
that so many people are investing time on the show and the forums is a testament
to their success. Hey it's TV, enjoy! Sorry for rambling,back to work...

I think, overall, S4 has been dreadful. It started off very promising. I really liked the emotional impact of the opener, The Beginning of the End- I know a lot of people thought it didn’t hit the mark like other openers, but I disagree. The worst part of it was the ridiculous resurrection of Naomi (Jack doesn’t at least try to treat her??), followed by her being able to set up a dummy trail, pull that big knife out of her back, climb a tree and jump Kate. If they got rid of that whole gigantic mess (along with the Hurley car chase), I thought the rest of it set us up nicely for a darker, more evil side of LOST. Sawyer’s character seemed to be evolving (instead of non-stop overdone nicknames, etc. he actually seemed more dimensional); along with Hurley- and I liked Hurley and Claire’s reaction to Charlie’s death. I also liked the division of the two camps- taking Jack by surprise; etc.- seemed kind of biblical (Moses loosing some of his longtime followers). I remember thinking; this season could be really good if they take this thing into a darker arc. For example, who are these people on the freighter going to be? If we thought the Others were bad…, etc.

I actually just had to look up the 2nd episode, Confirmed Dead- didn’t remember it all, at first (I guess that says something). The Economist was okay- but it left me very leery of the whole cliché of an espionage angle (ala Alias). Then, what I firmly believe to be the worst episode of LOST to date, Eggtown (knocking off my previous nomination, Expose). They then bounced back big with The Constant (less the time travel nonsense), but then back-to-back terrible episodes (The Other Woman and Ji Yeon), followed by another very weak episode, Meet Kevin Johnson.

What really baffles me, this season, is we know these guys (PAWs) are EXTREMELY talented and smart when they put their minds to it, so why has there been such a disconnect- beginning last season through the present? LOST was one of the most unique and compelling shows I can ever remember. This season, for the most part, has been more like a terrible afternoon soap than what pulled me into the show like a tractor beam (and I’m not even a sci-fi fan).

I simply don’t get how people think this season is moving along at a fast clip (not a bait or a bash- just my honest reaction). I don’t think we’re really any further along then we were at the end of S3. Yes, some things have been answered, but nothing really big has been answered (not to mention, we have about a million more new questions)- and “questions not being answered” is not my main gripe about this season, at all.

I’m sure there are those who will simply say we don’t have the entire blueprint of the whole series (TPTB have it entirely mapped out and have had it mapped out since the beginning), especially how the series will end, so how can we question the creative team on individual episodes? Also, they might add things like there is a difference between reality and story telling, etc. I think those arguments (not the people who make them) are ridiculous. If, by some miracle (at this point) they actually save this series, and they make me say “Oh, I guess it all makes sense, now” that will not change how I feel right now. Making sense of it all at the end of the series isn’t going to make up for all of the stupid and lazy writing we’re suffering through right now- like awful character “development” of characters like Locke, for example. Not getting answers to big things I am interested in (The Black Rock, Adam & Eve from S1, the four-toed statue, etc.) isn’t even what is bothering me- stupid and lazy writing is.

And I’m really tired of the truly pathetic argument (again, the argument, not the people who make it) of “reality is different than story telling,” when talking to people about the show. This is a total cop out and this cuts the creators way too much slack. To be clear, I’m not saying reality and story telling should be exactly the same. “Reality” is often too boring to be on a show. What I’m talking about is blatant laziness and tortured logic with regard to reality- having characters conveniently shutting their brains off simply for the sake of side-stepping an unwanted outcome, because TPTB aren’t ready to reveal something to the audience quite yet. Due to the continued overuse of FBs and now FFs, they box the characters (and themselves) into a corner, so the dialogue and action don’t flow naturally. To simply excuse this by saying something like, “reality is different than story telling,” is just absurd. The two do not have to be mutually exclusive.

Lastly, I’ve noticed on various threads people have stated the ratings have dramatically declined this season (from TBotE to MKJ), as well as season-over-season. If true, those would definitely be indicators that the fans (overall) are not happy with the direction this season. Does anyone have hard/reliable numbers on this season and possibly previous seasons- for comparison purposes?

Yes, because a flying smoke cloud was realistic. A hatch with a magic electormagnet thingy which can bring an airplane down was realistic. People seeing apparations of their dead loved ones was realistic. Desmond the sailor not being able to sail to Fiji was realistic. Locke walking again was realistic. Anyone surviving that plane crash was realistic.

Lost has always had huge heaping chunks of sci-fi / pseudoscience.

Frankly I am AMAZED that so many people can hate on the time travel for being too much when there were tons of ridiculous sci-fi issues in the areas of biology and physics already on the show. If you were fine with Lost at the end of Season 3, you should be fine with it now.

I am amazed by that too. Just for the simple fact that "The Constant" was one of the most fascinating and well acted pieces of drama I have seen on a television show. The writers at Lost don't speak down or condescend to the fans. They ask for your intelligence and open mindedness to go up another level. I find that far more entertaining than sticking to safe ordinary fare.

I think, overall, S4 has been dreadful. It started off very promising...

Lastly, I’ve noticed on various threads people have stated the ratings have dramatically declined this season (from TBotE to MKJ), as well as season-over-season. If true, those would definitely be indicators that the fans (overall) are not happy with the direction this season. Does anyone have hard/reliable numbers on this season and possibly previous seasons- for comparison purposes?

I answered my own question. According to Wikipedia, season-over-season overall ratings and rankings are as follows:
S1 = 16.1 million; Rank = 14
S2 = 15.5 million; Rank = 14
S3 = 14.6 million; Rank = 17
S4 = 13.3 million; Rank = 19

Also, from Wikipedia, here are the ratings for just this season- from TBotE to MKJ:
TbotE = 16.1 million
MKJ = 11.5 million

So, from S1 to S4, there has been a 17.4% drop-off; and from only S3 to S4 an 8.9% drop-off. For just this season, from TBotE to MKJ there has been a 28.6% drop-off. Not only are all of these indicators that the fans (overall) are not happy with the direction this season, it is actually a very disturbing trend- especially when you consider the writer’s strike was basically only affecting the competition of LOST (since LOST began on 1/31/08 this season). One could argue, if anything, LOST’s ratings should be much stronger this season due to the writer’s strike (competition was probably running reruns, etc.).

I’m not one that follows ratings- I’ll watch a show if it is good, no matter what the ratings are like. But after seeing several posts about a big decline in ratings, I had to check it out. The numbers don’t lie- a 28.6% drop-off this season alone is more than 1 in 4 people throwing in the towel. If that doesn’t tell you people are not happy with this season’s direction, I don’t know what will. I hope they can still turn this thing around.

Nice and steady describes this season.

I've liked Season 1, 2 and 3 in different ways and it's the same with Season 4. I wasn't that keen on flashforwards or the increasingly difficult to believe supernatural elements like Jacob and ghostbusting, but I still find most of the episodes intriguing and enjoyable. The good thing about "Lost" is that by switching things up all the time (like the focus on the freighties this season, with a couple of great new additions to the cast), I still find the show fresh in its fourth season, which is a difficult feat for a series. I don't find the idea of Widmore vs. Ben and the plane survivors being controlled by Ben off the island too enticing, but I'm optimistic since the show always draws me in.

I’ve been re-watching the first 3 seasons on DVD since before this season began (an episode here and there) and I’m now near the end of S3. I’ve been trying to see how the show is different in S4, since I don’t like the direction. One thing stands out in a major way: as the number of characters increases, the show has struggled more and more to stay on target and remain focused. In Seasons 3 and 4, we keep getting more and more characters for basically no reason (e.g. The Other Woman) and the core characters, including the Island (aside from the ridiculous notion of controlling people on the other side of the globe), are basically being ignored- after all, there’s only so much screen time to go around.

On other “discussion” threads, I was basically mocked by someone who “used to be in the business” for referencing a book by Syd Field on screenwriting (Screenplay- read it for a class in college about 100 years ago), so I’ll reference the only other screenwriting book I could easily find on my bookshelf, Michael Hauge’s Writing Screenplays That Sell. In this book, he writes, “But employ them (secondary characters) only as needed in terms of your hero’s outer motivations so you won’t overload your screenplay with an abundance of walk-on characters who diffuse and complicate the plot.” Boy, does that hit the bull’s-eye, or what?

I certainly don’t think the authors of instructional screenwriting books are the final authority on screenwriting or anything, and I appreciate the old saying, “Those that can’t do, teach,” etc. I even appreciate the obvious point of sometimes it’s a good thing to think outside of the box and go against the grain. I also don’t claim to be a writer or profess to be an expert myself on the subject matter, but I’ve always tried to learn from things as I’ve gone through life and many of the points authors (like those above) make in their books turn out to be very true. I can’t help but notice that much more often than not, when writers ignore many of the points/rules in “instructional books,” it weakens the movie or TV show. The use of FBs (and FFs, for that matter) being weaknesses, knowing your character, knowing your ending, not having too many secondary characters, remaining focused so that your pacing doesn’t suffer, etc. I believe all of these points are now being ignored on LOST and surprise, surprise- the show is suffering.

Is this fate, or coincidence? What do you think, Locke? Oh, that’s right, you’ve become a moron this season. Sorry.

I’ve been re-watching the first 3 seasons on DVD since before this season began (an episode here and there) and I’m now near the end of S3. I’ve been trying to see how the show is different in S4, since I don’t like the direction. One thing stands out in a major way: as the number of characters increases, the show has struggled more and more to stay on target and remain focused. In Seasons 3 and 4, we keep getting more and more characters for basically no reason (e.g. The Other Woman) and the core characters, including the Island (aside from the ridiculous notion of controlling people on the other side of the globe), are basically being ignored- after all, there’s only so much screen time to go around.

Each season of Lost has had a different focus than the rest, and in my opinion it hasn't lost that focus. The first season was about surviving and trying to find rescue, with surprises like an underground station. The second involved learning more about the island, including said underground station, with a few surprises here and there, like the introduction of the Others. Season three was about the conflict between the Survivors and the Others, with yet more surprises like the idea of people finding the island. Now we get to the fourth season and it's about outsiders coming to the island, and each episode has continued that focus. The beauty of Lost is that there we as viewers get so many perspectives on what is going on. Focusing on a select few all the time would get boring and monotonous. The way I see it, in the fourth season, the island as a character is more important in an indirect way. We have three groups of people who all have different intentions in regards to the island. We are being show how these groups interact with each other in order to accomplish what they have in mind.

On other “discussion” threads, I was basically mocked by someone who “used to be in the business” for referencing a book by Syd Field on screenwriting (Screenplay- read it for a class in college about 100 years ago), so I’ll reference the only other screenwriting book I could easily find on my bookshelf, Michael Hauge’s Writing Screenplays That Sell. In this book, he writes, “But employ them (secondary characters) only as needed in terms of your hero’s outer motivations so you won’t overload your screenplay with an abundance of walk-on characters who diffuse and complicate the plot.” Boy, does that hit the bull’s-eye, or what?I feel that if Lost were to focus on just a few main characters, it would become too much like any other serial drama and get boring. One of the most attractive and interesting aspects of Lost is that the story is told from so many points of view. The show is written by a big team of people, and you get new writers from one episode to the next. Obviously you are going to like some more than others, whether it's due to the focus characters of that episode or the writers of the episode, or one of many other factors. My point is that if you are going to assess the show based on conventional writing styles, you are looking in the wrong direction. Since the beginning the show has been anything but conventional in my opinion.

I can’t help but notice that much more often than not, when writers ignore many of the points/rules in “instructional books,” it weakens the movie or TV show. The use of FBs (and FFs, for that matter) being weaknesses, knowing your character, knowing your ending, not having too many secondary characters, remaining focused so that your pacing doesn’t suffer, etc. I believe all of these points are now being ignored on LOST and surprise, surprise- the show is suffering.This goes with what I just said, what your books consider weaknesses are what makes this show unique. The flashback device has been part of the main concept of the show since its inception. It allows us to see the contrast between different points in the characters lives. If you consider that a weakness in the show, then I don't know how you made it this far. Matt Roush put it nicely when he said, "Lost may not be what it was in terms of overall ratings, but it's still a hit, albeit more of a cult hit — which I've said before is really what it probably should have been all along, given its ambition and its determination not to be the same show every week. Lost isn't for everyone." I don't think the show is suffering at all as I've loved nearly every episode we've seen from Season 4.

Is this fate, or coincidence? What do you think, Locke? Oh, that’s right, you’ve become a moron this season. Sorry.I maintain that Locke is the same person we've known since Season 1. As with nearly everyone else on the show, there is more than one side to them. As we've seen in Locke's flashbacks, he has always been held back by people who assert authority over him. What we are seeing is that even though he sees the island as a chance to start over, he hasn't actually done so yet. I have faith that we will see a drastic turning point with him, but apparently you do not.

Each season of Lost has had a different focus than the rest, and in my opinion it hasn't lost that focus. The first season was about surviving and trying to find rescue, with surprises like an underground station. The second involved learning more about the island, including said underground station, with a few surprises here and there, like the introduction of the Others. Season three was about the conflict between the Survivors and the Others, with yet more surprises like the idea of people finding the island. Now we get to the fourth season and it's about outsiders coming to the island, and each episode has continued that focus. The beauty of Lost is that there we as viewers get so many perspectives on what is going on. Focusing on a select few all the time would get boring and monotonous. The way I see it, in the fourth season, the island as a character is more important in an indirect way. We have three groups of people who all have different intentions in regards to the island. We are being show how these groups interact with each other in order to accomplish what they have in mind.

I feel that if Lost were to focus on just a few main characters, it would become too much like any other serial drama and get boring. One of the most attractive and interesting aspects of Lost is that the story is told from so many points of view. The show is written by a big team of people, and you get new writers from one episode to the next. Obviously you are going to like some more than others, whether it's due to the focus characters of that episode or the writers of the episode, or one of many other factors. My point is that if you are going to assess the show based on conventional writing styles, you are looking in the wrong direction. Since the beginning the show has been anything but conventional in my opinion

I see where you’re coming from on some on this. I agree that each season has had a different theme/arc and that if they just kept having them fighting with each other on the beach, etc. no one would be watching the show. What I was referring to was the “core” themes, such as: man of science vs. man of faith- I feel this has been abandoned almost entirely this season as both of these men (Jack and Locke) have hardly been on the show.

With regard to the characters, obviously you need some new characters/blood each season. What I’m talking about are characters who have contributed nothing to the show (e.g. Harper/Goodwin’s wife in TOW- she was introduced solely to touch upon one of the many, overdone and ridiculous love triangles (Ben-Juliet-Goodwin). Totally worthless, IMO. Also, with every minute they spend on the new characters, the natural opportunity cost is we won’t see as much of the original characters. For example, if (that’s if) they kill off Claire so Kate can end up with Aaron, who will care? I’ve actually always liked her character (as a tertiary character) and I think EdR is one of the two best actresses on the show (along with YK), but she’s been on the show this season for about 12 minutes (doing things like getting Sawyer coffee and offering to play good cop/bad cop with Locke to get answers out of Miles). So if they kill her off at this point, it will have as much emotional impact as Karl getting killed off. I’ll say, “Who cares? Good for EdR- now maybe she can use her breakthrough on LOST and pick up another series.”

This goes with what I just said, what your books consider weaknesses are what makes this show unique. The flashback device has been part of the main concept of the show since its inception. It allows us to see the contrast between different points in the characters lives. If you consider that a weakness in the show, then I don't know how you made it this far. Matt Roush put it nicely when he said, "Lost may not be what it was in terms of overall ratings, but it's still a hit, albeit more of a cult hit — which I've said before is really what it probably should have been all along, given its ambition and its determination not to be the same show every week. Lost isn't for everyone." I don't think the show is suffering at all as I've loved nearly every episode we've seen from Season 4.

I’ve written about the FBs on various threads many times, but neglected to included the following usual “disclaimer” in my post this time: the FBs were essentially necessary in seasons 1 & 2, since the show began after the plane crash. We knew nothing about the characters so we had to find out about them so we would care what happens to them. What I’m talking about is now we are in S4 and the FBs are as old as seeing Ben manipulate everyone. We should have more than enough background on the characters. More importantly, if the audience pays close attention, notice how the episodes almost always drag during the FBs (especially Kate FBs)? MKJ was almost entirely a FB and what did we learn that we didn’t already know? Michael is working for Ben; he sabotaged the communications room and the engines; and Sayid thinks he is a traitor. Knew all of that. One thing that we didn’t know that might have been interesting to find out is how Michael and Waaaaaalt got to NYC- and so fast. That didn’t even get a mention.

Regarding the quote about LOST being different and a cult hit, etc.: my biggest complaint about LOST this season is it has basically become a soap, for the most part (Eggtown, The Other Woman and Ji Yeon). Terrible so-called drama like those episodes belongs on daytime “drama.”

I maintain that Locke is the same person we've known since Season 1. As with nearly everyone else on the show, there is more than one side to them. As we've seen in Locke's flashbacks, he has always been held back by people who assert authority over him. What we are seeing is that even though he sees the island as a chance to start over, he hasn't actually done so yet. I have faith that we will see a drastic turning point with him, but apparently you do not.

I agree and disagree with this last point.

The Disagreement (Locke Changes – A Good Thing)
In seasons 1-3, Locke had a powerful connection to the Island that grew stronger, he took his lumps when he was wrong about some things (like the hatch), but he seemed to be getting much wiser by the end of S3- even Jacob asked for his help. He certainly was evolving and becoming the “hunter” instead of the “farmer”: he got Sawyer to kill his dad and with Waaaaalt’s inspiration, he killed Naomi himself. This season, in TBotE, he challenged “Moses” (Jack) and successfully divided the camp.

The Agreement (Locke The Same – A Bad Thing)
Locke has regressed into the chump that used to work at a box company, taking crap from his twerp of a boss (like Ben, now). Two seasons ago, we saw Ben push his buttons, causing him to throw his tray and saw it again this season. That’s not character development, that’s character regression.

What I’m talking about are characters who have contributed nothing to the show (e.g. Harper/Goodwin’s wife in TOW- she was introduced solely to touch upon one of the many, overdone and ridiculous love triangles (Ben-Juliet-Goodwin).

What I’m talking about is now we are in S4 and the FBs are as old as seeing Ben manipulate everyone. We should have more than enough background on the characters.....MKJ was almost entirely a FB and what did we learn that we didn’t already know? Michael is working for Ben; he sabotaged the communications room and the engines; and Sayid thinks he is a traitor. Knew all of that. One thing that we didn’t know that might have been interesting to find out is how Michael and Waaaaaalt got to NYC- and so fast. That didn’t even get a mention.

I see what you're saying and will agree that adding another love triangle is unnecessary, but I don't see a problem in including someone in the flashback that is still on the island and we will see again. Now if Juliet is present when they inevitably show us how the Others are doing, any tensions will make a little more sense. Not just between her and Harper, but people in small communities learn everything about everyone and I'm sure they look down on Juliet. I know she's also been marked, but I see it as giving us a little more context, which is fine with me in this regard because Juliet has had fewer episodes than most characters.

As for flashbacks for most of the other characters, I will say that I mainly agree that we've seen a lot about their past, and before TTLG I was wondering what more they could show us about Jack, Kate, Sawyer, Hurley, whomever. After episodes like Stranger in a Strange Land and Tricia Tanaka is Dead, it had become obvious to me they were running out of past for these characters. This is why we now have flashforwards. You may not like seeing ahead, but I think they're nice and work much like the flashbacks did. Initially we got to see how the characters were and how they are. This left us to speculate on their pasts and slowly the pieces were filled in. Now we get to see how they will be, and again we get to speculate, but this time as to how they will end up like that.

As for Meet Kevin Johnson, yes WE knew nearly everything that was revealed in that episode, but not all Lost fans did. We knew because they publicly advertised that Harold was coming back at some point, and then announced it after Season 3. Once we knew he was coming back, it wasn't a leap to figure out when and how once Ben said he had a man on the freighter. In my opinion this situation was mishandled, but what are we going to do? The writers and station make their decisions and we have to live with that. However, if you look at it further down the line, what would have happened if they didn't have that flashback? They can't only cater to us rabid fans who are watching the show as it airs. There are people that are joining the show in it's 4th season and buy the DVDs to catch up. We can only assume this will continue to happen for two more seasons. What is someone to think if they watch Seasons 1-4 next year to catch up during 5 and they don't have an episode to explain Michael's return? Just because we post on a forum about the show and read interviews and listen to podcasts doesn't mean they can skip over this information, since not everyone does.

Regarding the quote about LOST being different and a cult hit, etc.: my biggest complaint about LOST this season is it has basically become a soap, for the most part (Eggtown, The Other Woman and Ji Yeon). Terrible so-called drama like those episodes belongs on daytime “drama.”

Well, this goes back to what I was saying, that different episodes have different themes. Some of them focus on love, some of them focus on conflict. I've never liked the Sun/Jin episodes all that much because they seem like a soap opera, but in my opinion they've been this way since the first season. There are still parts of these episodes that I like, but I can't hold it against the show when this isn't the majority of the episodes.

The Disagreement (Locke Changes – A Good Thing)
In seasons 1-3, Locke had a powerful connection to the Island that grew stronger, he took his lumps when he was wrong about some things (like the hatch), but he seemed to be getting much wiser by the end of S3- even Jacob asked for his help. He certainly was evolving and becoming the “hunter” instead of the “farmer”: he got Sawyer to kill his dad and with Waaaaalt’s inspiration, he killed Naomi himself. This season, in TBotE, he challenged “Moses” (Jack) and successfully divided the camp.

The Agreement (Locke The Same – A Bad Thing)
Locke has regressed into the chump that used to work at a box company, taking crap from his twerp of a boss (like Ben, now). Two seasons ago, we saw Ben push his buttons, causing him to throw his tray and saw it again this season. That’s not character development, that’s character regression.

I can't argue that he's acting the same as we saw before, but I think that is the point. I have to believe that they showed us that scene where he threw the plate against the wall to emphasize the fact that Locke isn't as strong as we were lead to believe. At least not yet. It may have to do with the fact that he himself didn't kill his father. He still has to be told what to do. I still don't think he has found his path. I think there is still a long way to go for these characters, and I'm sure we will see Locke turn out to be the hunter we thought he was.

As for the Man of Science vs. Man of Faith, it's ha