The tombstone said that Jin died, 9/22/04, but maybe I read it wrong? Does anyone know what Jin 's tombstone said?

If I read correctly, the date of death was 2004. So either he dies in the next 5 days (since it's about December 25th, 2004 in present time) or Sun is forced to lie that he died in the plane crash.

I take it as, 5 days...in other words, by the end of the season. Unless of course he is the 6th O6 (Im still abit confused about that), but dies off the island.

I caught the 2004. So it really said Sept 22? They must be forced to lie and say he died in the crash. Which means the doctor thought the baby was coming early, but it really wasn't.

ETA: Yes, it definitely appears the date of death is 2004-9-22. The date of birth looks like 1974-11-27. On the far left, on the other side of the characters that run down the middle, it says 1980-3-20. Sun's birth date?

My guess:

Jin did not make it off the island. Sun presumes him dead along with everyone else left on the island ... and even if she doesn't presume Jin dead, she has to at least keep up that ruse because it is part of the bargain of the Oceanic 6 that they were the only survivors of the crash. Sun has to lie to herself and everyone around her and pretend that Jin died in the crash along with the other 316 victims (plus the two who initially survived but died before rescue). That means Jin's grave is really only a headstone.

That means that the O6 consists of: Jack, Kate, Hurley, Sayid, Sun, and one of (Aaron, Michael, Walt) depending on how they want to spin the last member. Or, conversely, there is one additional member of the O6 who ends up being the person in the box but we haven't gotten to that point in the story yet. (Though we were supposed to know the full (O6 by this episode, per D&C).

There are three dates on the headstone,

1980 3/20
1974 11/27
2004 9/22

Jin died in the plane crash

Screenshot:
http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/2475/image2xi3.jpg

I don't understand what the 1980 date is for. So sad that she is forced to lie that he died in the crash.

I'm glad people could read that.

So, at least we know that Sun is lying about how/ when he died.

Is it naive to hope that he is still alive and on the island, and Sun just doesn't know it?

We definitely need the Korean translation, especially for the 1980 date. And ack! We have no idea if Jin really makes it off the island or not. :confused: :frown:

i sure hope so!!! i swear there was almost a wink or a twinkle in sun's sad little, tearful eye as they closed in on it. jin cannot be dead!!! please please please please please!

But why three dates... birth, death and what else?

the left side of the stone had one date, presumably sun's birthday only, and the other was presumably jin's, with the date of death as 9-22-2004...

Another possibility is that they are counting Ji-Yeon as the sixth. Technically he would have been on the plane, in Sun's womb, given the story they are telling. Aaron, I think , is being passed off as Kate's child conceived on the island with Jack and not on the plane, although if some infant came back a miraculous survivor on a desert island, I'd think he would be counted.

So #6 of the O6 is still somewhat up in the air.

Cardie

I'm going to guess that 1980 is Sun's birthdate. The headstone is prepared for them to eventually be together.

I don't understand what the 1980 date is for. So sad that she is forced to lie that he died in the crash.

Lots of times when spouses share a headstone they put the birth and death dates of the spouse who has died, and just the birth date of the living spouse. They'll put on Sun's death date when she dies and is buried there.

I took the 1980 as being Sun's date of birth... since they are married they will be burried together.

My guess:

Jin did not make it off the island. Sun presumes him dead along with everyone else left on the island ... and even if she doesn't presume Jin dead, she has to at least keep up that ruse because it is part of the bargain of the Oceanic 6 that they were the only survivors of the crash. Sun has to lie to herself and everyone around her and pretend that Jin died in the crash along with the other 316 victims (plus the two who initially survived but died before rescue). That means Jin's grave is really only a headstone.

That means that the O6 consists of: Jack, Kate, Hurley, Sayid, Sun, and one of (Aaron, Michael, Walt) depending on how they want to spin the last member. Or, conversely, there is one additional member of the O6 who ends up being the person in the box but we haven't gotten to that point in the story yet. (Though we were supposed to know the full (O6 by this episode, per D&C).

That's my guess too, but I'm pretty sure that it's now established that the 06 are Jack, Kate, Hurley, Sayid, Aaron & Sun. I base this on the previews for Eggtown, where we were promised that another of the O6 would be revealed, and Ji Yeun, where we were promised that the last of the O6 would be revealed. Kate wasn't revealed in Eggtown; we already knew that she was one of the O6 from last season. Sun was the only new person that we saw off of the island after the "rescue" in this episode.

The admitting people at the hospital seem all a-titter about 'Oceanic'...maybe they're excited they are going to help give birth to #6?

Take a look at the date on the tombstone! It says date of death is 9-22-04, the date of the crash! To protect the ones who stayed they probably told the public they died which would explain that date being on the tombstone. Jin is still alive and on the island he did what it took to get her off the island.

Take a look at the date on the tombstone! It says date of death is 9-22-04, the date of the crash! To protect the ones who stayed they probably told the public they died which would explain that date being on the tombstone. Jin is still alive and on the island he did what it took to get her off the island.

ok cool I didn't see the date. So when Sun said I miss you she didn't mean miss him because he's dead. So there's still a chance he's alive. You may be right, hum? :cool:

I really hope Jin is not dead. I hated him at first, but I really like him now...I just worry about the death that is supposed to come. Maybe he really is dead, and now we'll have to find out how it happens! I am so glad I decided to quit reading spoilers. It really is more rewarding.

It's possible, it's also possible that everyone else is dead. We don't know what happens to those who aren't the Oceanic 6 in the future. The 6 might be the only survivors of whatever is to come, it's unlikely Kate would have Aaron, for example, if his mother decided to stay of her own free will.

Good catch. I'm thinking that he still died on the island though. The date on the tombstone is just part of the cover story.

Regardless, they aren't together and he hasn't seen his beautiful daughter. :(

Jin is defidentely still alive! That 9-22-04 date of death is huge, they needed to lie. He must have not been one of the "8" Jack said survived the crash on the island.

It would be great if we had an actual Korean translation.

Because I'm thinking Sun has got to be older than 24. Yunjim Kim is 35.

How in the world could Sun have been born in 1980? Are we to think that she is only 24 (island time = 2004)?? :confused: Yunjin is 35 in real life.

Edit: mrain that would have been a jinx moment, had it not taken 2 minutes for my post to go through!

But if Jin wasn't actually buried there, why would Hurley say we should "go see him"? And Sun seemed to really be talking to Jin as if he was truly buried there (despite the tombstone likely being a ruse).

There are three dates on the headstone,

1980 3/20
1974 11/27
2004 9/22

Jin died in the plane crash

Not sure how this all works, or if ther are any cultural issues, but if he died in the plane crash, why does he have a burial plot?

This is a very plausible idea. Jin could still have died on the island, and the date is is only in error to fit with the official Oceanic story. But...one can easily imagine a scenario where Jin does something incredibly brave and sacrifices either himself or his own rescue to get Sun & Ji Yeon off the Island. There is nothing explicite in Sun & Hurley's conversation that would confirm whether Jin was dead or...still Lost. Sun could even assume he's dead, while Jin lives on. Perhaps when Abbedon was asking Hurley if there were survivors on the island (Santa Rosa scene) Hurley wasn't sure himself...aaargh!

Sorry but that doesnt make sense with what we saw. Just watch it again and you'll see he dies.

He says he will do anything to protect her and get her off the Island(the very line that made me understand Jins was a flashback). He obviously gives his life

2nd
You dont say--"Let go see him" about a person who is Alive on the Island. It would be utterly obsurd to visit a grave in that situation --much less say the things they said

Your not seeing the theme of the episode. Jin dies. If Jin was not dead--it makes no sense at all and has absolutely no purpose as a flashfoward/flashback

I got to think he's dead and there were a number of clues to his death.

1. As the previews last week said, we will learn the final member(S) of the Oceanic 6. There were 2 spots leftg to be filled by Jin and Sun.

2. If he is still alive on island why oh why would she go to a fake tombstone and pay homage to him. I could understand her going if ANYONE was with her, but it was just her and Hurley who would be in on the lie. The question is, why would she go to his grave if no one was there to try and lie to. It would be the same as if at home, in his house alone, Jack started talking to himself saying "Only 8 of us survived the crash and only 6 made it off the island all together." What would be the purpose for them to lie to themselfs? That makes no sense at all. If anyone had been at the grave besides her and Hurley I would completly agree with this theory of him still being alive. Although no one else was there and because of that it makes no sense.

The soundtrack was the same as when Charlie died (if he's truely dead). So I'm banking on Jin really being dead. The lie about his date of death is... All of the O6 are telling the same story about 8 survivors and 6 make it off. Sun is being consistent with the story, the lie that there are no more survivors than those 6 who made it off the island.

What is with the tombstone dates? The left side had 1980. The right side had 1974 and 2004. I guess 1974 is a Jin's birthdate and 2004 is when he died, but what about 1980? Am I missing something?

My best hunch, after reading all of your comments, is that Jin is still alive, but that they want viewers to be somewhat uncertain. Many will presume that he died in something bad that happened after what we've seen and before the Six are rescued. Again, that just a strong hunch. But how they "get back" to the Island, if indeed they do, is all in the hands of God (TPTB).

When someone with a knowledge of Korean funeral practices weighs in on the inscription, I think we're left with something that feels like an answer, but just leads to more questions. Like Life, neh?

What is with the tombstone dates? The left side had 1980. The right side had 1974 and 2004. I guess 1974 is a Jin's birthdate and 2004 is when he died, but what about 1980? Am I missing something?

Sometimes more than one person's date of birth is already on the tombstone, creepy thing, but some families do that. So who would have been born in 80 in Jin or Sun's family?

I believe he's still alive too. He may have died on the island but his chances of survival are as good as the ones that are left behind. The memorial is only a symbol - Sun, Hurley and the world know Jin isn't buried there.

I assumed the 1980 was Sun's birthday.

Sun is NOT 24.

80 cant be her B-day (because it is 2004)
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Sun is NOT 24!! 1980 cannot be her birthday!

lmao wow/.. two separate threads merged and my posts were merged LOL sorry not trying to sound prickish these were separate.

I believe he's still alive too. He may have died on the island but his chances of survival are as good as the ones that are left behind. The memorial is only a symbol - Sun, Hurley and the world knows Jin isn't buried there.


So why go there and lie about it to THEMSELFS? It makes no sense. They were not covering it up at the time to anyone else. Only those 2 were there at the time.

Please let him be alive.

Am I the only one who saw him back in Korea as a newly wed? Jin is alive but living in the past.

He can't be one of the O6 the outside world is talking about as his DOD is the date of the crash. Who is supposed to be the sixth?

Jin if number 6, he died post island. The six have already been all revealed. Also Jin had a FB and Sun had a FF

So why go there and lie about it to THEMSELFS? It makes no sense. They were not covering it up at the time to anyone else. Only those 2 were there at the time.

It's possible that Sun & Hurley went there for appearance sake. Maybe they know someone will be there, observing their memorial.

I guess we will be seeing more of Jin, just not in the outside world. Jin did what he said he would: Protect his wife and baby. He was able to get those two off the Island, but had to stay behind. As part of the bargain, Sun has to lie about the fate of her husband (along with the rest of the Losties on the Island). That will be her burden. She did what she set out to do (get off the Island with her baby). Karma? Anyway, SUn has her built in reason to return to the Island (as all the characters will).

Sun is NOT 24.

80 cant be her B-day (because it is 2004)
100%
Sun is NOT 24!! 1980 cannot be her birthday!

lmao wow/.. two separate threads merged and my posts were merged LOL sorry not trying to sound prickish these were separate.

That's what I was thinking...I mean, come on, Sun looks young...but not THAT young...she can't be 24...It must mean something else...or someone messed up ::confused:

It's possible that Sun & Hurley went there for appearance sake. Maybe they know someone will be there, observing their memorial.


Except no one was there. Are we now to believe there was a camera man behind the grassy nole? The theory holds no water because no one else was there. If there was even one person there then I can agree with this theory but there was only Sun and Hurley there.

11/27/1974? Hey... That's my birthday! Well, I'm 11/27/1964.

Jin shares my birthday! :cool:

So why go there and lie about it to THEMSELFS? It makes no sense. They were not covering it up at the time to anyone else. Only those 2 were there at the time.
They weren't lying to themselves :confused: Sun was truly sad that Jin wasn't there to see the baby and she truly misses him.

Jin really dead or not... that was an emply grave they were going to. It was just a symbol. (And a clever TV device to really making you believe Jin was dead. Remember Jack speaking about his father in TTLG?:rolleyes: ).

It's possible, it's also possible that everyone else is dead. We don't know what happens to those who aren't the Oceanic 6 in the future. The 6 might be the only survivors of whatever is to come, it's unlikely Kate would have Aaron, for example, if his mother decided to stay of her own free will.

Heh. That's a really good point ya know...

They weren't lying to themselves :confused: Sun was truly sad that Jin wasn't there to see the baby and she truly misses him.

Jin really dead or not... that was an emply grave they were going to. It was just a symbol. (And a clever TV device to really making you believe Jin was dead. Remember Jack speaking about his father in TTLG?:rolleyes: ).

Except we have reason to believe Christian is alive. Hurley saw him alive in the cabin.


Sun would not go to a fake grave for Jin if he was on island unless she was faking it to SOMEBODY. The problem was at the time, there is no one else there who she would be putting on the show for.

I'm not really sure what to believe. The writers pulled a nice trick of guessing games, they are getting almost to good. The fact that she was talking to the tombstone in such a way brings up a few points. If its the theory of "they are being watched" its only for appearance sake because maybe hurley knows that abbadon will be watching them and what they do. But if thats not the case then it would be very unnecessary for her to visit a grave if he was still on the island, so then he might really be dead.

The only reason I believe Jin could still be alive is because Juliet said all along to Ben that if she could just take a baby off the island after conception, that it would be possible to give birth. So Ben now knows that Jin has conceived on this island, of course he is going to let her leave...ahh but he needs a plan, and Mr Linus has one. Keep Jin on the island and Sun has to come back for him eventually, with the child. I love Lost :)

But as i go to hit quick reply, a thought creeps in that debunks this theory. Then why would Ben let Aaron off the island. Cause now they have a boy and a girl. Hmm. Any thoughts?

My guess:

Jin did not make it off the island. Sun presumes him dead along with everyone else left on the island ... and even if she doesn't presume Jin dead, she has to at least keep up that ruse because it is part of the bargain of the Oceanic 6 that they were the only survivors of the crash. Sun has to lie to herself and everyone around her and pretend that Jin died in the crash along with the other 316 victims (plus the two who initially survived but died before rescue). That means Jin's grave is really only a headstone.


Agreed. I think that the headstone was put up by the Paiks or Kwons after the crash, on the presumption that both Jin and Sun had died that day. In the scene at the cemetery, nothing Sun said was proof that Jin had actually died, just that she missed him.

I guess this was our first FF/FB episode...

By the way, how gorgeous is Ji Yeon?!

It's possible that Sun & Hurley went there for appearance sake. Maybe they know someone will be there, observing their memorial.


Here's what gets me...

If they are doing this for appearances sake...why is Hurley there? In his FF, he clearly lies to the cop that he did NOT know Ana-Lucia. Why would he have known Jin? And then to fly half-way across the world to mourn with Sun publically? That doesn't make sense to me.

I think it proves that no one is there watching them, that it's a private moment for two people to grieve a lost loved one/friend.

:( RIP Jin.

This reminds me of when Kate said to Jack that he's repeated the lie so many times they're starting to believe it. I think they are truly living the lie. They may fear Abaddon's people, they may fear they're being watched all the time, I believe they would lie to each other with a wink even in private.

There is no way Jin could be the 6th if the official lie is that he died September 22, 2004. The tombstone reflects the lie. So regardless of whether he is really alive or dead, he had to be left behind on that island. The question then becomes who is the 6th? It can't be Jin, since it said he died before they left. He can't be a survivor if he died the date of the crash.
100%
And Hurley was there to see the baby, not mourn for Jin. He just went with Sun to visit the grave while he was there. It wasn't a service, just a gravesite visit saying wish you were here which is just as true if Jin is on the island still.

This reminds me of when Kate said to Jack that he's repeated the lie so many times they're starting to believe it. I think they are truly living the lie. They may fear Abaddon's people, they may fear they're being watched all the time, I believe they would lie to each other with a wink even in private.

There is no way Jin could be the 6th if the official lie is that he died September 22, 2004. The tombstone reflects the lie. So regardless of whether he is really alive or dead, he had to be left behind on that island. The question then becomes who is the 6th? It can't be Jin, since it said he died before they left. He can't be a survivor if he died the date of the crash.
100%
And Hurley was there to see the baby, not mourn for Jin. He just went with Sun to visit the grave while he was there. It wasn't a service, just a gravesite visit saying wish you were here which is just as true if Jin is on the island still.


The tombstone also says something about 1980 which is after Jin's birth.


Also so we are now to believe Widmore's people are watching everyone even in there own apartments?

There was no one else there they would be lying too. Also there is no way Sun is believing a lie about her husband if she knows the truth. She is not brainwashed.

I hope we get a translation of the tombstone soon just to prove that there is no way in hell that Sun is 24 in 2004. I mean, Yun Jin looks great, but I'm sorry Sun is not 24. That would also mean that her previous flashbacks would have been in her late teens/early 20s. :wallbash: If that is supposed to be her birthdate, I sure hope they fix it for the dvds because that is a really stupid mistake.

Here's what gets me...

If they are doing this for appearances sake...why is Hurley there? In his FF, he clearly lies to the cop that he did NOT know Ana-Lucia. Why would he have known Jin? And then to fly half-way across the world to mourn with Sun publically? That doesn't make sense to me.

I think it proves that no one is there watching them, that it's a private moment for two people to grieve a lost loved one/friend.

:( RIP Jin.I agree with part of what you are saying. Hurley was there because he wanted to be but it would be expected for Sun to visit her husband's monument.

The tombstone also says something about 1980 which is after Jin's birth.


Also so we are now to believe Widmore's people are watching everyone even in there own apartments?

There was no one else there they would be lying too. Also there is no way Sun is believing a lie about her husband if she knows the truth. She is not brainwashed.

Ever hear of wiretapping?

And I'm not saying Sun believes it, just that the lie is so ingrained that they never speak the truth no matter what. We don't know the reason yet but it must be a pretty compelling one to command this conspiracy of silence.

Ever hear of wiretapping?

And I'm not saying Sun believes it, just that the lie is so ingrained that they never speak the truth no matter what. We don't know the reason yet but it must be a pretty compelling one to command this conspiracy of silence.


wiretapping? Are you serious? Sun has access to money equal to Widmore and Ben. Are we to believe Sun hasn't secured her place at all.


Also they do talk about it amoungst themselfs. Jack talked to Kate about it and Hurley talked to Jack about it. If someone is always watching then that does not explain what happened here. Can't have it both ways.

The tombstone on Jin's grave listed September 22nd, 2004 as the date of Jin's death, the day Oceanic 815 crashed. If there was a coverup, and Jin could not make it off of the island for whatever reason, this means they must continue the ruse that he is actually dead.

Sun never once said Jin was dead, only that she missed him. She seemed so insistant while medicated to talk to him and that he was there, it is possible then, that Jin and Sun were seperated on the island.

Imagine a scenario - A helicopter recovery at night, it's raining and stormy, and the helicopter is full. Jin and Sun rush up, and Frank says, "We only have room for one more!" The teary-eyed goodbye between Jin and Sun seems so strikingly LOST in fashion.

Now imagine this, Sun is off of the island, and believes she will never return. Her husband is effectively dead to her, but with the most painful part knowing that he is still alive out there somewhere, but she can never see him again.

Until Jack starts trying to convince people to go back.

Now won't that be an awesome reunion? If, of course, he didn't die on the island.

Jin saving Sun from the monster? That would be a good sendoff.

But Jin didn't die off the island, the tombstone says such. Thus, Jin is not one of the Oceanic 6.

They didn't talk about it too comfortably. Jack shut Hurley down immediately when he tried to talk about it and his conversation with Kate was abrupt as well. I sense fear when they dare speak the truth and we've seen that Sun is an accomplished liar. I think she'd be the best of all, especially knowing what money and power can do, at keeping quiet.

It says date of death is 9-22-04, the date of the crash! .
Do you read Korean, or has someone who does read Korean, verified that it says "date of death" by 9-22-04??

edit: Nevermind, I just realized that Sun - and probably the other O6 - told the press that Jin died in the crash.
So we'll have weeks, or maybe months, to speculate about how and when he actually died.

The tombstone also says something about 1980 which is after Jin's birth.


Also so we are now to believe Widmore's people are watching everyone even in there own apartments?

There was no one else there they would be lying too. Also there is no way Sun is believing a lie about her husband if she knows the truth. She is not brainwashed.

The reference to 1980 would be Sun's birth date. She would be buried there upon her death. The other dates on the tombstone represent Jin's birth date and date he died.

The other dates on the tombstone represent Jin's birth date and date he died. If 9-22-04 is shown as his date of death, that means the O6 have told the world Jin died in the crash...

If everyone that supposedly died on 815 had a grave marker somewhere in their family plots, then Sun could have been using the tombstone as a way to mourn not having Jin there... but I felt it was sader than just missing him as if he were alive but on the island. I think he's dead.

They didn't talk about it too comfortably. Jack shut Hurley down immediately when he tried to talk about it and his conversation with Kate was abrupt as well. I sense fear when they dare speak the truth and we've seen that Sun is an accomplished liar. I think she'd be the best of all, especially knowing what money and power can do, at keeping quiet.

Jack and Hurley both said there sick of the lies. That they won't tell the truth. So if someone is always listening they know Jack and Hurley are lying about the crash and yet they don't go capture them and torture the info out of them? Makes no sense at all. Only possibly explination is they are not listening 24-7 365.
100%
The reference to 1980 would be Sun's birth date. She would be buried there upon her death. The other dates on the tombstone represent Jin's birth date and date he died.

Where has this been confirmed? This would mean Sun is barley 24 years old while Jin is 30. I have not seen a thing saying Sun is only 24, which would mean when she met Jin she was what 22/21/20? I don;t think Jin met her and hooked up with her when she was barley an adult.

Now imagine this, Sun is off of the island, and believes she will never return. Her husband is effectively dead to her, but with the most painful part knowing that he is still alive out there somewhere, but she can never see him again.

As much as I hate to admit it, this is possible.

Sorry but that doesnt make sense with what we saw. Just watch it again and you'll see he dies.

He says he will do anything to protect her and get her off the Island(the very line that made me understand Jins was a flashback). He obviously gives his life

2nd
You dont say--"Let go see him" about a person who is Alive on the Island. It would be utterly obsurd to visit a grave in that situation --much less say the things they said

Your not seeing the theme of the episode. Jin dies. If Jin was not dead--it makes no sense at all and has absolutely no purpose as a flashfoward/flashback

First of all, your assumption that Jin "obviously" gives his life is a guess with zero evidence to back it up. No one SAW anyone die. Secondly,the only purpose for the Jin flashback was for the cheap shock at the end of the episode - which seems to be the M.O. for this season.

I got to think he's dead and there were a number of clues to his death.

1. As the previews last week said, we will learn the final member(S) of the Oceanic 6. There were 2 spots leftg to be filled by Jin and Sun.


Those who dies on 9/22/04 cannot be included in the 6. That would be a lame 6. I'm guessing it's Walt. Tall, but not so ghostly.

Except no one was there. Are we now to believe there was a camera man behind the grassy nole? The theory holds no water because no one else was there. If there was even one person there then I can agree with this theory but there was only Sun and Hurley there.
I've been under the impression that there's ALWAYS someone watching our Losties. Remember what Cindy told Jack early in season 3?
They weren't lying to themselves :confused: Sun was truly sad that Jin wasn't there to see the baby and she truly misses him.

Jin really dead or not... that was an emply grave they were going to. It was just a symbol. (And a clever TV device to really making you believe Jin was dead. Remember Jack speaking about his father in TTLG?:rolleyes: ).
Exactly. People use these symbols to represent their loved ones all of the time. It offers a deluted tangability for the unknown.
Except we have reason to believe Christian is alive. Hurley saw him alive in the cabin.

The cabin that disappeared and then reappeared and then disappeared again? Oh yeah, that was Christian. He lives in a mobile home on the island. He couldn't afford a plane ticket so he faked his death and hid in a casket. Quietly.
This reminds me of when Kate said to Jack that he's repeated the lie so many times they're starting to believe it. I think they are truly living the lie. They may fear Abaddon's people, they may fear they're being watched all the time, I believe they would lie to each other with a wink even in private.

There is no way Jin could be the 6th if the official lie is that he died September 22, 2004. The tombstone reflects the lie. So regardless of whether he is really alive or dead, he had to be left behind on that island. The question then becomes who is the 6th? It can't be Jin, since it said he died before they left. He can't be a survivor if he died the date of the crash.
100%
And Hurley was there to see the baby, not mourn for Jin. He just went with Sun to visit the grave while he was there. It wasn't a service, just a gravesite visit saying wish you were here which is just as true if Jin is on the island still.
Right on.

Jin if number 6, he died post island. The six have already been all revealed. Also Jin had a FB and Sun had a FF
Michael can be the sixth. It was revealed he got back, but returned on the freighter as Kevin Johnson. Now he's free to go back (yet again) as a 815 survivor.
If 9-22-04 is shown as his date of death, that means the O6 have told the world Jin died in the crash...
I think they did. Remember Jack's trial story..eight survived, six made it back.

First of all, your assumption that Jin "obviously" gives his life is a guess with zero evidence to back it up. No one SAW anyone die. Secondly,the only purpose for the Jin flashback was for the cheap shock at the end of the episode - which seems to be the M.O. for this season.



Those who dies on 9/22/04 cannot be included in the 6. That would be a lame 6. I'm guessing it's Walt. Tall, but not so ghostly.


I've been under the impression that there's ALWAYS someone watching our Losties. Remember what Cindy told Jack early in season 3?

Exactly. People use these symbols to represent their loved ones all of the time. It offers a deluted tangability for the unknown.

The cabin that disappeared and then reappeared and then disappeared again? Oh yeah, that was Christian. He lives in a mobile home on the island. He couldn't afford a plane ticket so he faked his death and hid in a casket. Quietly.

Right on.


No matter what you say, its 100% positive it was Christian in the cabin.


Also if there always watching then they know its all a lie as both Hurley and Jack have said. hurley once and Jack twice. Can't have it both ways. Either there always watching and know its a lie and are doing NOTHING about it or they don;t know everything and don't know its a lie. Pick one, both don't work.

Also if there always watching then they know its all a lie as both Hurley and Jack have said. hurley once and Jack twice. Can't have it both ways. Either there always watching and know its a lie and are doing NOTHING about it or they don;t know everything and don't know its a lie. Pick one, both don't work.

Of course both can work because they're different time periods and we don't know everything that happened in between. In one they could have been more lax about it, then something could have happened to scare them all to stop talking about it, so then later they're more careful. And again, they're different people and some are better liars than others. Everything Hurley said to Sun may make sense in the context of Jin being somewhere else but not with them. No one actually said he was dead. It was like when Kate said "he's going to be wondering where I am." They write these things just to manufacture a mystery and then you learn later what they were talking about. Aaron as "he" was an awkward fit but they did it so you would wonder who "he" was.

Also if there always watching then they know its all a lie as both Hurley and Jack have said. hurley once and Jack twice. Can't have it both ways. Either there always watching and know its a lie and are doing NOTHING about it or they don;t know everything and don't know its a lie. Pick one, both don't work.

Perhaps whoever might be watching them is who told them/got them to lie in the first place? It's not like they're going and telling everyone they're lying. They're just talking about it amongst themselves. There's no harm in that. I expect if they started telling other people about the lie then the hypothetical watcher would do something about it.

I don't think it's totally beyond the realm of possibility that Sun is 24. The year of the dragon was 2000 and Jin had been married a couple of months, Sun was right out of school when she met Jae, then Jin. The date would work if she had been through a two year college program then married at 20.

Perhaps whoever might be watching them is who told them/got them to lie in the first place? It's not like they're going and telling everyone they're lying. They're just talking about it amongst themselves. There's no harm in that. I expect if they started telling other people about the lie then the hypothetical watcher would do something about it.

Thats my point, why lie about it amoungst themselfs. Cause there was NO ONE else at the grave.

Thats my point, why lie about it amoungst themselfs. Cause there was NO ONE else at the grave.

No one that we saw anyway. It's possible to have someone around who simply wasn't within the range of the camera. Or, as I think someone else alluded to, they're so used to living this lie that it's just a part of their behavior now. Or they're paranoid.

Of course both can work because they're different time periods and we don't know everything that happened in between. In one they could have been more lax about it, then something could have happened to scare them all to stop talking about it, so then later they're more careful. And again, they're different people and some are better liars than others. Everything Hurley said to Sun may make sense in the context of Jin being somewhere else but not with them. No one actually said he was dead. It was like when Kate said "he's going to be wondering where I am." They write these things just to manufacture a mystery and then you learn later what they were talking about. Aaron as "he" was an awkward fit but they did it so you would wonder who "he" was.


We know both Hurley and Jack and Jack and Kate talk about the lie. Then at a later date Jack mentions lying again. If someone is always lsitening then why would they hear Jack lie and do nothing about it? Cause if something happened why would Jack be still talking about it at a later date? Again doesn't make sense. It can't be both ways. Either someone is always lsitening and did nothing to stop Jack from talking about it or and this is most likely it, are not always listening. They are keeping an eye on them but do not have camera's and wiretaps in there showers and bathrooms.

No matter what you say, its 100% positive it was Christian in the cabin.


Also if there always watching then they know its all a lie as both Hurley and Jack have said. hurley once and Jack twice. Can't have it both ways. Either there always watching and know its a lie and are doing NOTHING about it or they don;t know everything and don't know its a lie. Pick one, both don't work.
Christian is dead. That was Kurt Cobain in the cabin. But I will agree that Hurley's invisible friend, Dave, is alive because he saw him too.

Also...

I'll pick option (C)... They are almost always watching. They know almost everything. They are probably in the process of doing something about it.

That work for you?

No one that we saw anyway. It's possible to have someone around who simply wasn't within the range of the camera. Or, as I think someone else alluded to, they're so used to living this lie that it's just a part of their behavior now. Or they're paranoid.


Then why does Jack talk about the lie at 3, yes 3 different times since leaving the island and at least 2 of them with some distance in between. Here's the thing, if there always listening and they hear Jack and Kate and Hurley talk about it all being a lie, then why did they do nothing to make Jack stop talking about the lie? Jack just openly talks about it at a later date with Kate. If someone is always listening then they are doing nothing to Jack after they heard he said it was all a lie, then again said it at a later date and once again said it a 3rd time.

I'll pick option (C)... They are almost always watching. They know almost everything. They are probably in the process of doing something about it.

That work for you?

I like option C. I agree that they aren't wiretapping or hiding cameras in these peoples' houses, but I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility that they might be watching the survivors in a public area like a cemetery. When Hurley said to Sun that he guessed they should go see him, it didn't seem mournful or even sad to me. It seemed like they were doing it for some other purpose - like they had to do it to keep up appearances or something.

Christian is dead. That was Kurt Cobain in the cabin. But I will agree that Hurley's invisible friend, Dave, is alive because he saw him too.

Also...

I'll pick option (C)... They are almost always watching. They know almost everything. They are probably in the process of doing something about it.

That work for you?

I din;t say its 100% Christian is alive, I just said that was him in the chair. By the way, it was not in Hurley's mind since Hurley has never seen him before.


Ok then answer this, if they are always listening then why have they done nothing to Jack when 3 times he talked about lying? If they did something then why does he keep talking about the lie?
100%
I like option C. I agree that they aren't wiretapping or hiding cameras in these peoples' houses, but I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility that they might be watching the survivors in a public area like a cemetery. When Hurley said to Sun that he guessed they should go see him, it didn't seem mournful or even sad to me. It seemed like they were doing it for some other purpose - like they had to do it to keep up appearances or something.


Although what can really be read off how Hurley said something because he also seemed excited that no one else was coming? Does that mean he hates the other 6?

I'm starting to believe that Jin is alive on the island too. He said he would do anything for Sun and the baby and that might include being left behind. The reason for Sun and Hurley's behavior is simple: In order to live the lie, you have to believe it. Kate believed Jack was doing this and we know that the lies are eating him alive. And I think it is definitely possible that the O6 are being watched when they get off the island. We already know they are being watched to a degree in Sayid's flashforward (Elsa) and Hurley's flashforward (Abbadon).

Trust no one. :biggrin:

There is no way Jin could be the 6th if the official lie is that he died September 22, 2004. The tombstone reflects the lie. So regardless of whether he is really alive or dead, he had to be left behind on that island. The question then becomes who is the 6th? It can't be Jin, since it said he died before they left. He can't be a survivor if he died the date of the crash.

Aaron the 6th? I was expecting the answer from you, Pace.

I missed the date on the tombstone. Can you imagine how many Lost viewers did the same?

Well, the most interesting thing about the Sun\Hurley scenes is Hurley's "good" when he finds out nobody else (of the O6) is coming. Is Jin alive on the island, and is Hurley there to talk Sun (who would have the motivation) into returning to the island? Perhaps this scene takes place while Jack is still against returning to the island, and his absence is good for Hurley's attempt to follow Charlie's plea and return to the island.

I din;t say its 100% Christian is alive, I just said that was him in the chair. By the way, it was not in Hurley's mind since Hurley has never seen him before.


Ok then answer this, if they are always listening then why have they done nothing to Jack when 3 times he talked about lying? If they did something then why does he keep talking about the lie?
100%

Ok, Havok. I thought you had said Christian was alive. I'll confess it was Christian and not Cobain that Hurley saw in the cabin. However, I'm just not counting this as evidence of Christian being alive body, spirit, and mind after his death in 2004.

And to answer your question: Jack has never openly admitted to anything except for lying about something. Everything he has ever said was vague. Same with Hurley and Kate. We know Abbadon has suspiscion about survivors on the island so like I said, they're probably in the process of doing something about it. Like, visiting the six and trying to bribe them or threaten them into talking.

Ok then answer this, if they are always listening then why have they done nothing to Jack when 3 times he talked about lying? If they did something then why does he keep talking about the lie?


If there is someone watching, and they know about the lie, then my guess is they wouldn't care about Jack talking about the lie with other people telling that same lie. He keeps talking about it because it's tough to live your life as a complete lie; it's bound to get to you sometime.

Anytime they've discussed this lie amongst each other, it's been in a remote but public place (aside from Kate leaving from her trial - but there was no one in that parking garage either). We don't see other people around, but it doesn't mean they can't be there. Whatever reason they're telling this lie for, talking about it by a dark runway or in an empty gym isn't all that threatening, I guess. I think that's why whoever is listening doesn't do anything about it.

Anywho, I thought it was possible that Jin might still be alive and that they're faking grief over him, but then as I thought more, I wondered why he would go back to work for Paik if he was supposedly "dead" instead of assuming an alias and living another life somewhere else.

Ok, Havok. I thought you had said Christian was alive. I'll confess it was Christian and not Cobain that Hurley saw in the cabin. However, I'm just not counting this as evidence of Christian being alive body, spirit, and mind after his death in 2004.

And to answer your question: Jack has never openly admitted to anything except for lying about something. Everything he has ever said was vague. Same with Hurley and Kate. We know Abbadon has suspiscion about survivors on the island so like I said, they're probably in the process of doing something about it. Like, visiting the six and trying to bribe them or threaten them into talking.


Here the thing, if he has confirmation that Jack says they are lying to 2 of the 6 people and Abbadon had no qualms about killing the 365 survivors as was the case when he told Namoi and is involved with hiring someone to kill Sayid, why would he just "talk to Jack" and not torture the info out of him since he can easily infer Jack is lying as he said it three different times to Kate and Hurley, other survivors. Its reasonable to think that they do not have camera's all over the world and in every store, shop, bathroom, eatery, club, bar and corner of the world.

@ Havok: I thought of something. I'm working with the assumption that whomever is theoretically watching Jack and others is the same person/group who is their reason for lying - as if to ensure that they continued to uphold the fake story. If the survivors invented the story on their own, however, that completely changes things, and I have no idea why anyone who might possibly overhear them talking amongst themselves about lying would just stay passive.

Hmm...

If there is someone watching, and they know about the lie, then my guess is they wouldn't care about Jack talking about the lie with other people telling that same lie. He keeps talking about it because it's tough to live your life as a complete lie; it's bound to get to you sometime.

Anytime they've discussed this lie amongst each other, it's been in a remote but public place (aside from Kate leaving from her trial - but there was no one in that parking garage either). We don't see other people around, but it doesn't mean they can't be there. Whatever reason they're telling this lie for, talking about it by a dark runway or in an empty gym isn't all that threatening, I guess. I think that's why whoever is listening doesn't do anything about it.

Anywho, I thought it was possible that Jin might still be alive and that they're faking grief over him, but then as I thought more, I wondered why he would go back to work for Paik if he was supposedly "dead" instead of assuming an alias and living another life somewhere else.

So then you believe the people watching them are the ones who told them to lie? Then why would they have to go to a fake grave if the people watching know its fake? Makes no sense. Having a funeral would make sense as there would be lots of people there but not visiting it if the only people they are lying to are the general public because no one else was around. That is if you believe the people telling them to lie are the same ones watching them which you implied.

I can only assume that Jin is alive. Why would they (the writers) all of the sudden have Jin speak English? Umm...maybe cause Sun will leave the island and Jin will be left behind and he won't have anyone translating for him when she's gone! I don't think his improvement in English would have been brought up if he was to die.

I'm jumping on the 'He's still alive' bandwagon!!!

This reminds me of when Kate said to Jack that he's repeated the lie so many times they're starting to believe it. I think they are truly living the lie. They may fear Abaddon's people, they may fear they're being watched all the time, I believe they would lie to each other with a wink even in private.

There is no way Jin could be the 6th if the official lie is that he died September 22, 2004. The tombstone reflects the lie. So regardless of whether he is really alive or dead, he had to be left behind on that island. The question then becomes who is the 6th? It can't be Jin, since it said he died before they left. He can't be a survivor if he died the date of the crash.
100%
And Hurley was there to see the baby, not mourn for Jin. He just went with Sun to visit the grave while he was there. It wasn't a service, just a gravesite visit saying wish you were here which is just as true if Jin is on the island still.

If the rest of the world thinks that Jin died on 9-22-04 then how could Sun have a baby 8 months later?
who would they say is the father? OR when would they say JiYeon was conceived?

the writers totally threw me for a loop on this epi.

Thats my point, why lie about it amoungst themselfs. Cause there was NO ONE else at the grave.

Maybe we just didn't see everyone that was around? Ben got video of Juliet's sister and her child, and it didn't seem that they knew they were being taped. Look at the massive amounts of info that they have on everyone, someone sure seems to be keeping an eye out, and have the means to do so.

Geesh, this thread is moving fast.

I'm pretty sure it's Sun's birthday because her name is etched by the date, 3/20/1980. Her full name reads, Paik Sun Hwa. Gosh, I thought she was much older, lol.
100%
I don't think it's totally beyond the realm of possibility that Sun is 24. The year of the dragon was 2000 and Jin had been married a couple of months, Sun was right out of school when she met Jae, then Jin. The date would work if she had been through a two year college program then married at 20.

Hm, I thought her mom said in a previous FB that she had graduated from Seoul National University, which is a four year college, and that it had been some time before she agreed to "date" men for a potential marriage. She almost implied that Sun was already a spinster at that point.

This reminds me of when Kate said to Jack that he's repeated the lie so many times they're starting to believe it. I think they are truly living the lie. They may fear Abaddon's people, they may fear they're being watched all the time, I believe they would lie to each other with a wink even in private.

100%
And Hurley was there to see the baby, not mourn for Jin. He just went with Sun to visit the grave while he was there. It wasn't a service, just a gravesite visit saying wish you were here which is just as true if Jin is on the island still.

I agree with that. Jin may be alive on the island or he may have died while trying to protect Sun in her attempt to get off the island. But either way, the lie they need to live is that "Jin is dead, he died in the crash" and for Sun to start living that way, she needs to visit Jin's grave and mourn not necessarily the loss of Jin's life, but at least his absence. Same with Hurley: he wanted to see the baby foremost, but also to remember Jin.

Either possibility really works, but it's clear he didn't make it off the island. Which really puts a nail in the coffin of him being one of the Oceanic 6. Now currently we have Jack, Hurley, Sayid, Kate and Sun.

Now unless they're counting Aaron (hotly debated, last I recall), it means there's still one more to go. Did they actually mean Michael as we found out in this episode?

Curious!

I can only assume that Jin is alive. Why would they (the writers) all of the sudden have Jin speak English? Umm...maybe cause Sun will leave the island and Jin will be left behind and he won't have anyone translating for him when she's gone! I don't think his improvement in English would have been brought up if he was to die.

I'm jumping on the 'He's still alive' bandwagon!!!

Jin is speaking English to symbolize his complete transformation. It's a story device. It's just another way to show that he is completely devoted to Sun and Ji Yeon and the lengths he is willing to go for them.

I'm pretty sure it's Sun's birthday because her name is etched by the date, 3/20/1980. Her full name reads, Paik Sun Hwa. Gosh, I thought she was much older, lol.
100%


Hm, I thought her mom said in a previous FB that she had graduated from Seoul National University, which is a four year college, and that it had been some time before she agreed to "date" men for a potential marriage. She almost implied that Sun was already a spinster at that point.

I agree. Argh, this really bugs me. Why can't they just have Sun be the same age as Yun Jin? Why is that so difficult? 24 years old is just riduculous. That would mean that she is younger than Kate and close in age to Claire! What?!

From Wikipedia:.

Nov 27, 1974: Zsófia Polgár (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zs%C3%B3fia_Polg%C3%A1r), Hungarian-born chess player
March 20, 1980 The pirate radio (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pirate_radio) station Radio Caroline (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_Caroline) sinks.


Zsófia Polgár ([ˈʒoːfiɒ ˈpolgaːr], born November 2 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/November_2), 1974 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1974)) is a Hungarian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungary)-born chess (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chess) player (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_notable_chess_players) who now lives in Canada (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada).
...
She and her two sisters, Grandmasters Susan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Susan_Polgar) and Judit (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judit_Polgar), were part of an educational experiment carried out by their father László Polgár (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%C3%A1szl%C3%B3_Polg%C3%A1r), in an attempt to prove that children could make exceptional achievements if trained in a specialist subject from a very early age. "Geniuses are made, not born," was László's thesis. He and his wife Klara educated their three daughters at home, with chess as the specialist subject



Radio Caroline is a European radio station (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_station) that started transmissions on Easter Sunday (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Easter_Sunday) 1964 from a ship anchored in international waters (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_waters) off the coast of Felixstowe, Suffolk England (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/England).[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_Caroline#_note-0)

I don't see why Sun being 24 is a big deal. A lot of actors play younger than whatt hey really are. For example the Hurley character is much younger than Jorge is in real life.

I think that however the O6 managed to get off the island, it is clear they agreed on a lie that they all must tell. If Jin is alive back on the island, then his death must be part of the lie along with everyone else's.

As for why lie to themselves, Sun and Hurley never said Jin was dead. All of the O6 are lying in order to protect (presumably) the rest of the people on the island. We know that Abaddon has at least been after Hurley to get information. So why is it such a stretch to believe that they at least have reason to fear that someone is always watching them? There might not be anyone watching, but they may have been warned by Jack, or whoever else convinced them all they needed to maintain this lie, to always maintain appearances when they are in public.

Jack and Hurley spoke openly, but in a room where they had reason to believe they were alone -- and Jack still did not want to discuss it.

As for Jack and Kate, well we know they took steps to keep from being heard and seen.

The things Sun said at his grave she could easily have been saying to him, knowing he is alive back on the island.

When Charlie appears to Hurley, its to tell him that "they need your help," and Hurley takes this to mean that they must return to the island. Sayid tells Ben that he has agreed to work for him to help protect his friends. That may have been the others in the O6, or the people they left behind on the island.


All of this leads me to believe that the majority of survivors are still alive and back on the island. I have not seen anything to convince me that Jin is any more dead than the rest of them.

His date of death 09/22/2004 did throw me though... That would mean that Sun would have to claim that the baby was conceived before the flight. To make it arrive on time, she would have to induce labor a few weeks early... hmmmm...

2nd
You dont say--"Let go see him" about a person who is Alive on the Island. It would be utterly obsurd to visit a grave in that situation --much less say the things they said

Your not seeing the theme of the episode. Jin dies. If Jin was not dead--it makes no sense at all and has absolutely no purpose as a flashfoward/flashback

I concur. There is absolutely no reason to go to a gravesite and say those words -

- UNLESS . . .

You're part of the entire cover up or keeping the facade alive?

I hope we get a translation of the tombstone soon just to prove that there is no way in hell that Sun is 24 in 2004. I mean, Yun Jin looks great, but I'm sorry Sun is not 24. That would also mean that her previous flashbacks would have been in her late teens/early 20s. :wallbash: If that is supposed to be her birthdate, I sure hope they fix it for the dvds because that is a really stupid mistake.

I agree. Argh, this really bugs me. Why can't they just have Sun be the same age as Yun Jin? Why is that so difficult? 24 years old is just riduculous. That would mean that she is younger than Kate and close in age to Claire! What?!

I'm with lostfan...

I don't see why Sun being 24 is a big deal. A lot of actors play younger than whatt hey really are. For example the Hurley character is much younger than Jorge is in real life.

I don't see it as too far a stretch for a 31 year old to play a 24 year old. The fact that 4 years pass for us while it's still 2004 on-island means that Every actor from the original cast is getting much older than their character. I don't see what makes Sun's situation so terrible.

re: the tombstone... I hope that Jin is still alive. If the O6 is lying about all of these other people dying, it's possible they could be lying about Jin also. I hope that's the case. The way that Jin told the doc to bring Jin to her makes me think that he may still be alive.

Who are the six, im confused? I think it would be stupid if the fetus was #6 or arron but at least he was born already.

There are probably tombstones for everyone from 815 except the 6 since they are presumed dead. Sun went to his grave for the same reason anyone goes to a grave - it's a symbol of the person who is missing. He might turn out to be dead, but as of this time his status is still in question. Given that his date of death is falsely listed as the plane crash date, it definitely seems that even if he is dead, he is not buried under his tombstone.

I'm with lostfan...



I don't see it as too far a stretch for a 31 year old to play a 24 year old. The fact that 4 years pass for us while it's still 2004 on-island means that Every actor from the original cast is getting much older than their character. I don't see what makes Sun's situation so terrible.

re: the tombstone... I hope that Jin is still alive. If the O6 is lying about all of these other people dying, it's possible they could be lying about Jin also. I hope that's the case. The way that Jin told the doc to bring Jin to her makes me think that he may still be alive.

I just don't see the point in making her so much younger than her actual age. Why can't Sun be 31 years old? Maybe I'm just nitpicking, but I've always had an issue of actors playing parts that are way younger than their actual age.

The name next to 1980 is "Baek Sun Hwa".

I just don't see the point in making her so much younger than her actual age.

IIRC they tailored the role for her after she tried out for the role of Kate. So, they Could have made the character older... maybe there IS a reason that the character has to be young. Only time will tell.

I've always had an issue of actors playing parts that are way younger than their actual age.

I've never had that issue... it's too common on television, so I guess I've just gotten used to it.

Jeez! Do you think all those American actors playing teens are actually teens?!!

I'm gonna pressume that Jin IS dead. Not because that is what I want to believe, but because that Charlie's death has taught me not to hope for such things.

Sadly this death doesn't seem to matter that much. Jin will still be alive on the island for a while so we can look forward to plenty more episodes which feature Jin...err...standing in the background looking confused? Saying one line in stumbling english? Not appearing at all?! Gee, I can't wait...

Here's what gets me...

If they are doing this for appearances sake...why is Hurley there? In his FF, he clearly lies to the cop that he did NOT know Ana-Lucia. Why would he have known Jin? And then to fly half-way across the world to mourn with Sun publically? That doesn't make sense to me.

I think it proves that no one is there watching them, that it's a private moment for two people to grieve a lost loved one/friend.

:( RIP Jin.

He didn't "know" Ana Lucia because she "died" in the crash. Sun was a survivor with him giving them that bond. He went with her to the "grave" because of his bond with her, not with Jin who "died" in the crash. Wink wink. ;)
And let's see...an airliner full of dead bodies can be placed at the bottom of the ocean...I'm thinking they could be watched from anywhere, anytime. They have to keep up the ruse.
The grave is empty, of course. (That's not unusual. Lots of empty graves out there, folks.) Whether he's dead or alive remains to be seen, but I'm hoping he's alive.

He's a goner...... :(

Also, that was interesting comment from Hurley about if anyone else was showing up.

The date on Jin's tombstone is the date of the plane crash. Therefore, if they are saying publically that Jin is one of the two that didn't make it back, then his tombstone would have had the date that he died sometime in December or early January. But it doesn't. So the public story that Sun must have had to say is that Jin died in the plane crash, hence the date on his tombstone. If Sun is having to say that Jin died in the crash, then Jin isn't counted as one of the Oceanic Six or the two that didn't make it. I'm thinking that Jin is still on the island, not just because I think that would make a romantic story for Sun and Jin, but because that is just the logical conclusion to come to. And it would be just as heartbreaking for Sun knowing he was somewhere she could never go and that he can't get back.

No one that we saw anyway. It's possible to have someone around who simply wasn't within the range of the camera. Or, as I think someone else alluded to, they're so used to living this lie that it's just a part of their behavior now. Or they're paranoid.

I like option C. I agree that they aren't wiretapping or hiding cameras in these peoples' houses, but I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility that they might be watching the survivors in a public area like a cemetery. When Hurley said to Sun that he guessed they should go see him, it didn't seem mournful or even sad to me. It seemed like they were doing it for some other purpose - like they had to do it to keep up appearances or something.


Or they might do a 'Harper'. Have another flashback to the same point in the story only the next time they have the camera pull back to find someone hiding in the bushes.:rolleyes:

1. Clearly the O6 told the world Jin died in the crash and he most definitely is NOT one of the O6.

2. Some suggested that Ji Yeon is one of the O6. But, remember, Ji Yeon was conceived ON the island... NOT one of the O6. Thus the last member of the O6 is one of (Michael, Walt, or Aaron).

3. Clearly Jin is not actually buried in that grave. The entire world would know that grave is just a symbol.

4. I do not believe the idea that Hurley and Jin were "just putting on a show". However, even if Jin is still alive on the island and both Hurley and Sun know it... their expressed grief does still make sense! They are heart broken over the fact that he is not there to see his baby daughter and likely they will never see him again (that's as good as dead!).

5. Because their grief makes sense either way, I don't think we can possibly have any confidence about whether or not Jin died trying to get Sun off the island or is still alive on the island.

6. We have the same problem with Claire that we do with Jin... Did she die and that is why Kate took Aaron off the island? Or did Claire have to make a bargain to stay, but Aaron could go? It doesn't make sense that Kate would just kidnap Aaron. And I don't think it makes sense that Claire would care that much about getting Aaron off the island just for the sake of him being off the island if it meant being away from her - no way that is true. So, personally, I think Claire dies and so Kate decides to take the baby with her.

7. As for why would Hurley go see Jin's grave (who he is supposed to not know since he "died in the crash") and yet deny he knows Ana Lucia... He is going to Jin's grave because Sun is his friend and he wants to be there for her when her baby is born and help her grieve the fact that her husband can't be there.

The tombstone translation

Wife: Paek Seon-hwa
born 1980/3/20
South Sea Kwon Jin-su's grave (south sea reference since Jin is from Busan, on the south coast of Korea)
born 1974/11/12
died 2004/9/22

1. Sun can easily be 24. In countries where women remain chaste; they get married a lot younger. Sun could have finished her secondary schooling at 16 and completed University by 20.
2. Also, I think the sixth person is Aaron.

Not sure how this all works, or if ther are any cultural issues, but if he died in the plane crash, why does he have a burial plot?

Because it makes mourning easier for some people to actually have a place to go to and realize that someone is dead. I think it makes sense to say that if Jin wasn't dead, it would totally not make sense to go to the cemetery and play all that in fron tof Hurley, who probably would know the truth. Otherwise I would be quite disappointed by the writers, not to mention my disappointment about seeing Jin die! Now why that "Good!" statement from Hurley?

If Jin died in the plane crash, then he cannot be Ji Yeon's father, no? Or maybe I am over analyzing it.

I believe Jin will die before the rescue. The date of his death is part of some, yet to be disclosed conspiracy/cover up. And why wouldn't the last O6 member be the one in the box. Oh sixers are clearly public figures, which would explain the newspaper article Jack saw on the plane during the first fast forward.

Some loose ends??? The guy in the box. Plain casket, no mourners (morners??) Hurley's statement at graveside, no one else shows up. Jack and Hurley meet at the hospital, Hurley and Sun at the grave. Jack and Kate at the airport and she mentions that "he" will wonder where I am. Public figures but no public acknowledgments.

Gotta thing about this some more...

b.b.

4. I do not believe the idea that Hurley and Jin were "just putting on a show". However, even if Jin is still alive on the island and both Hurley and Sun know it... their expressed grief does still make sense! They are heart broken over the fact that he is not there to see his baby daughter and likely they will never see him again (that's as good as dead!).

I was going to post this very thing! I strongly believe Jin is alive. The grave is just to "prove" he died in the crash. She is there because she does miss him just as anyone would go to a grave, they miss the person, it doesn't mean they are really there. It is also a tool for the writers to make us wonder.

Why I think he is alive:

The date of the crash on the tombstone, he obviously did not die in the crash.
When Sun was drugged at the hospital she wanted her husband, somebody get my husband. She slipped due to the drugs, but I do think he is on the island & not there.There may have not been enough room on the helicopter for both of them, so he sends her to save her life.

I also wonder if what we saw for Jin was not a flashback but perhaps the present. Maybe he is in a time loop. Unless the writers just wanted to trick us into thinking he was a survivor, then saying nope, we fooled you. Which is kinda mean. If he is in a time loop at least he is still with her.

This episode had me all over the place. When Jin said he was only married for 2 months, I thought.. "That bastard left her when they got off the island."

don't believe he made it off the island alive, but I do believe he was one of the surviving 8.



just my $0.02:hypocrit:

I also wonder if what we saw for Jin was not a flashback but perhaps the present. Maybe he is in a time loop. Unless the writers just wanted to trick us into thinking he was a survivor, then saying nope, we fooled you. Which is kinda mean. If he is in a time loop at least he is still with her.

But at the end of his FB he says to the nurse he has only been married for 2 months. And the shopkeeper said it was the year of the dragon. 2000 was the year of the dragon.

I believe that there is a good possibility that Jin is still alive on the island.

What we don't know is if there was some kind of deal struck between the passangers and the freighter that only 6 could return with the boat. I can't imagine why, but it seems strange that of all the survivors only 6 returned. I keep thinking that there must have been some kind of deal made, hense the lie that the Oceanic 6 are forced to keep up.

Can anyone read Korean? I want to know what the grave says.

It has been translated already in this thread. If you look back you will see them. They are accurate. There really isn't anything surprising in there. Pretty much just their names and the birthdate for Sun, and the birth and death date for Jin.

I think hes alive on the island too, surely the date of death would be later than the crash date if he was really dead?

I think he probably did something heroic to get Sun off the island knowing she would be dead if she stayed there.

As for the tombstone, in reality, Jin might as well be dead to Sun because they cant get back to the island as proved by Jack taking flights hoping they would crash. That would be his only way back.

Sun just uses the Tombstone as an output for her feelings.

Christian is dead. That was Kurt Cobain in the cabin. But I will agree that Hurley's invisible friend, Dave, is alive because he saw him too.

The difference is that Hurley KNEW Dave pre-island. I doubt he's ever met Christian before, so how would he know what the guy looks like to "imagine" him?

-- J

I think hes alive on the island too, surely the date of death would be later than the crash date if he was really dead?

No it wouldn't because the official lie is that no one but the six survived more than a few days after the crash. They are saying there was no one alive but them as late as December 2004 so the real death date couldn't be given.

So sad that she is forced to lie that he died in the crash.


This doesn't make any sense. If she is being forced to lie that he died, then why go to the headstone all upset and say she misses him etc... etc.....

Even if he is alive - and she knows it - why would you go to the cemetary? I understood the episode as that he is one of the O6 and died (or was murdered???) since being off the island. Perhaps Sun's lovers powerful father had Jin killed??

The Panda scenes were a flash BACK not a flash forward, so that makes perfect sense to me.

J

No it wouldn't because the official lie is that no one but the six survived more than a few days after the crash. They are saying there was no one alive but them as late as December 2004 so the real death date couldn't be given.

When did they say that? I must have totally forgotten.

When did they say that? I must have totally forgotten.Jack said that during Kate's trial.

I don't know what to make of the whole Jin thing. I hope he's alive, but I'm leaning more towards him dying to save Sun.

Wow, that is very interesting!
However, maybe he died on the island, and they just SAID he died in the crash. To keep up their lie, you know?

I think there's obvious foreshadowing in Jin's on island conversation with Sun
that he'll die getting her rescued. He's devoted to her now, not a lackey
of her father. The tombstone thing would be stupid if she knew
he's on the island. Its obvious she knows he's dead.

Haven't been able to search the thread so I don't know if it's been mentioned, but Hurley said "let's go see him." I know it might just have been a device to prolong the ambiguity a bit further, but if he knew Jin wasn't in the coffin and was still on the island he'd be less likely to phrase it like that.

This doesn't make any sense. If she is being forced to lie that he died, then why go to the headstone all upset and say she misses him etc... etc.....

Even if he is alive - and she knows it - why would you go to the cemetary? I understood the episode as that he is one of the O6 and died (or was murdered???) since being off the island. Perhaps Sun's lovers powerful father had Jin killed??

The Panda scenes were a flash BACK not a flash forward, so that makes perfect sense to me.

J

Even if Jin is alive on the island, Sun has to keep that a secret so it seems logical that she would go to visit his grave for the sake of appearance. Besides, the tombstone now represents Jin so this is the only way she can visit him.

I may have missed something...why did Hurley show up in Korea? Is it for the baby's christening?

Here's my take. I think when the O6 get off the island, for some reason, they think evryone else on the island dies. Maybe a volcano, tsunami or other disater strikes the island as they are getting away. Think of the helicoptor flying away and the losties looking down and seeing a giant wave rushing towards the island. That would be really cool. :eek: Then, once Charlie visits Hurley and tells him to go back and help the others, Hurley finds out that they are still alive. This is why Abaddon asks Hurley if "they" are still alive. Then Hurley tells Jack. I suspect Jack will get a visitor later on, too. Probably Christian. That's when Jack goes bonkers and big time guilt steps in. Once they all find out that the islanders are still alive, the quest to return will begin. That's how I would write it, anyway.

Here's my take. I think when the O6 get off the island, for some reason, they think evryone else on the island dies. Maybe a volcano, tsunami or other disater strikes the island as they are getting away. Think of the helicoptor flying away and the losties looking down and seeing a giant wave rushing towards the island. That would be really cool. :eek: Then, once Charlie visits Hurley and tells him to go back and help the others, Hurley finds out that they are still alive. This is why Abaddon asks Hurley if "they" are still alive. Then Hurley tells Jack. I suspect Jack will get a visitor later on, too. Probably Christian. That's when Jack goes bonkers and big time guilt steps in. Once they all find out that the islanders are still alive, the quest to return will begin. That's how I would write it, anyway.

Yeah, I can see where you're coming from with this concept. It's possible those off-island don't know whether or not the remaining folks (including the Others, maybe) are alive or dead.

I want Jin to be alive... but I don't think so. I agree with those who said the "let's go see him" comment on Hurley's part indicates that he's in that grave. Because Hurley's not that great of a liar - he looked really genuine and caring in that scene. I suppose people can go to empty graves to grieve, but you only really say you're going to "see" someone who's dead when they're in there.

Then again... I'm absolutely terrified than everyone BUT the 6 is going to die, and I'd feel really cheated if that happened. I've invested a lot in these characters, and there are some that I'll be downright pissed about dying.

The fact that Hurley tells Sun that the child looks just like Jin, leads me to believe that Jin is alive. It would seem out of character for Hurley to make such a statement, so early in the visit if Jin was in fact dead. The way he said it implies that Jin is still with them.

First-time poster, long-time lurker.

I, too, think -- or at least want -- for Jin to still be alive.

But I got to thinking about the statement he made to Sun after Juliette (God, does she ever annoy me) blabbed and narked Sun out for her affair (sheesh, talk about the pot calling the kettle black!!!). He said in broken English, "I forgive you."

Now I pose the question to you, who else talked about being forgiven, or at least not having anything to be forgiven for?

Mr. Eko did, right before smoky pummelled him to a pulp, that's who.

So maybe Jin is dead, unfortunately, and it has something to do with finding your way, or not being "lost" anymore. Or something along those lines.

Wow, that is very interesting!
However, maybe he died on the island, and they just SAID he died in the crash. To keep up their lie, you know?

But then why wouldn't they way he was one of the two who died on the island, and the tombstone would reflect a later date?

Edit: my post got moved here and no longer makes sense in this position, ah well.

I think he is a live. I think the date on the tombstone is of the crash because it would have been put up by his family or by Suns father. I'm sure everyone who was on the plane had famiy who had memorials, possibly put a tomb stone on a grave so they had some place to go mourn.

I think Sun knows he is a live which is why she never bothered to have the date on the tombstone changed. Because it's not important to her. I think she was crying at the grave because she truly misses him. Not because she was mourning him

Sorry for the long multi-quote, catching up here.I just don't see the point in making her so much younger than her actual age. Why can't Sun be 31 years old? Maybe I'm just nitpicking, but I've always had an issue of actors playing parts that are way younger than their actual age.
Yunjin is actually 35 (born in 1973), so she's playing a character 11 years younger than her (7-8 when the show started). I get that actors are cast for characters younger than them all the time, but I agree with the person who asked why do this when the role was specifically created for the actress?
The tombstone translation

Wife: Paek Seon-hwa
born 1980/3/20
South Sea Kwon Jin-su's grave (south sea reference since Jin is from Busan, on the south coast of Korea)
born 1974/11/12
died 2004/9/22
Thank you for the full translation!!
But then why wouldn't they way he was one of the two who died on the island, and the tombstone would reflect a later date?
You're right. There must be some reason integral to the cover up story that he can't be part of the 8. About the 8, Damon and Carlton have said in a recent podcast that the identities of the other 2 aren't really important in the story. They are just more detail for Jack et al's lie. So, I don't think we should look to this as the explanation.
If Jin died in the plane crash, then he cannot be Ji Yeon's father, no? Or maybe I am over analyzing it.
I don't think you are overanalyzing it actually because of when Sun gave birth. In D.O.C., Juliet says Sun is 8 weeks pregnant. According to Lostpedia, that occured on day 87. So, 8 weeks or 56 days before that would have been around day 31. Now, forgetting all the talk of why Jin and Sun would have had sex when they were fighting at that time, it's a good month after the crash. If Sun carried on the explanation of Jin being the father (and with her sense of shame over the affair and wanting to honor Jin, I can't see her doing otherwise), that's an extra month of time when she was supposedly pregnant but really not. So, the doctor might have thought she was going into labor a month late! :eek2: Wouldn't this raise questions about the story she is telling?

i sure hope so!!! i swear there was almost a wink or a twinkle in sun's sad little, tearful eye as they closed in on it. jin cannot be dead!!! please please please please please!

Upon watching the episode again, I saw that too. I'm now thinking he might not be dead after all.

I think Sun wasn't expecting to deliver at that time. She probably had the baby at 8 months, and it looked like a small, but full-term baby to the doctor, who would believe her to be in her ninth month. If you spend your first trimester all stressed out and barely having enough food to survive, you might well deliver a low-birthweight baby.

36 to 40 weeks is thought a normal duration of a first pregnancy.

Cardie

Jeez! Do you think all those American actors playing teens are actually teens?!!

NO! That's one of many reasons why I think those shows are so stupid. :rolleyes:


Yunjin is actually 35 (born in 1973), so she's playing a character 11 years younger than her (7-8 when the show started). I get that actors are cast for characters younger than them all the time, but I agree with the person who asked why do this when the role was specifically created for the actress?


Thank you jennylee! I just think it is dumb that Sun is now 11 years younger that Yunjin, when they made the role specifically for Yunjin, so there is no reason for her not to playing at least closer to her actual age. Grrrr.... Ok, I'm done now.

I think arguments for Jin being dead or still alive on the island are perfectly plausible. Either one works.

If Jin is dead, there's no question that Sun would go to his tombstone, whether or not there's a body in it, especially if it's after some ritual event (a christening?) or the anniversary of something, like a death or a birthday.

If Jin is still alive but back on the island, it also makes sense that Sun would go to keep up the pretense of Jin being dead -- especially if she knows she will never see him again. Why Hurley is there is more of a question -- probably to see the baby. Why he is glad no one else showed up may simply be because it's not long enough after the rescue for the notoriety of the Oceanic 6 for the furor to have died down. The more who show up, the more news and disruption it causes.

We didn't see Jin die -- and that's an important point. It means that TPTB can go either way with it. If it suits their ultimate purpose for him to still be alive, he can be. It's not like Charlie or Boone or Ana Lucia. We saw them die, so the only way they can come back is flashbacks, visions or as evil twins.

It may end up just being a twist of fate as to who gets to leave the island and who doesn't. Frankly, I can't see Jack leaving anyone behind unless they really don't want to leave, he is knocked out and dragged off, or for some physical reason, they can't leave. I think there may be people who simply cannot physically leave -- although I'm not sure why that would be true.

I think he's dead. If he wasnt wouldnt Sun be all about getting back to the island ASAP after she had her baby? Why waste time with Hurley at a fake grave?

We didn't see Jin die -- and that's an important point. It means that TPTB can go either way with it. If it suits their ultimate purpose for him to still be alive, he can be. It's not like Charlie or Boone or Ana Lucia. We saw them die, so the only way they can come back is flashbacks, visions or as evil twins.

We didn't see Charlie die. We saw Charlie in the process of drowning which takes a long time. We never saw a post drowning corpse like we've seen corpses of Boone, Shannon and Ana. Really, they left that very open too and with all of the signs of time travel now, anything is possible.

But back to Jin, I agree they left it open ended so they can choose to do what they want to later and either outcome will make sense. But they've now set up a possible Claire death and a Jin death and the finale will likely deal with one or the other. We already had a Jin fakeout death last finale along with Sayid and Bernard. This time I think Claire's will be the fakeout and Jin the real one.

I think he's dead. If he wasnt wouldnt Sun be all about getting back to the island ASAP after she had her baby? Why waste time with Hurley at a fake grave?

Hurley seemed rather well adjusted in this episode. Different from the Hurley of a few years from now in Santa Rosa. I wonder if perhaps he didn't initially know that they left unwilling survivors (if they do) and once he finds out that truth it leads to his breakdown.

I know its far-out there, but what is the rescue occurs in two groups? We know the helicopter can't take all 6 at once.

What if group 1 has Sun & Hurley and goes off without a hitch but the second rescue attempt has issues and a story is created that Jin dies when really he didn't but had to remain behind in some agreement for his pregnant wife's continued safety. We've seen the Losties regularly lie to each other.

I know this is a way, way out there theory (and I'm spoiler-free so this only out of my own wacky head) but the question above sparked the idea. How could Jin be alive and yet Sun not go back for him.

I HIGHLY doubt the above idea is what will happen but I do wonder what happens to Hurley that causes the break. Perhaps its a simple as time.. the longer the secret and lying has to go on the more difficult it becomes.

I think Sun wasn't expecting to deliver at that time. She probably had the baby at 8 months, and it looked like a small, but full-term baby to the doctor, who would believe her to be in her ninth month. If you spend your first trimester all stressed out and barely having enough food to survive, you might well deliver a low-birthweight baby.

36 to 40 weeks is thought a normal duration of a first pregnancy.

Cardie
I thought full term was considered 38-42 weeks? At least, that's what the docs have been telling me on my current pregnancy! :eek2: 36 is pressing it for full term, due to the lack of full lung development, I believe.

I suppose it is convenient that Sun may have delivered a month early. It would awfully suspicious to have a 10 month pregnancy!

I think Sun wasn't expecting to deliver at that time. She probably had the baby at 8 months, and it looked like a small, but full-term baby to the doctor, who would believe her to be in her ninth month. If you spend your first trimester all stressed out and barely having enough food to survive, you might well deliver a low-birthweight baby.

36 to 40 weeks is thought a normal duration of a first pregnancy.

Cardie


Are yhou joking, that baby was perfectly full term. It looked nothing like it was underwieght. Have seen enough newborns to know what looks normal and what doesn't.

Doesn't explain when the baby was born, but the baby looked good in size, not undersized.

Also food was never an issue after she got preg. The food problems happened before her preg.
100%
We didn't see Charlie die. We saw Charlie in the process of drowning which takes a long time. We never saw a post drowning corpse like we've seen corpses of Boone, Shannon and Ana. Really, they left that very open too and with all of the signs of time travel now, anything is possible.

But back to Jin, I agree they left it open ended so they can choose to do what they want to later and either outcome will make sense. But they've now set up a possible Claire death and a Jin death and the finale will likely deal with one or the other. We already had a Jin fakeout death last finale along with Sayid and Bernard. This time I think Claire's will be the fakeout and Jin the real one.

Drowning does not take a long time. 4-6 minutes of no o2 and the brain dies. So at most he could have survived 6 minutes without having brain damage. The only way Charlie would survive is if Desmond saved him and for some reason he is hiding down in the Looking Glass. He would not be able to survive Desmond leaving the station and then Charlie getting out or swimming up top.

Drowning does not take a long time. 4-6 minutes of no o2 and the brain dies. So at most he could have survived 6 minutes without having brain damage. The only way Charlie would survive is if Desmond saved him and for some reason he is hiding down in the Looking Glass. He would not be able to survive Desmond leaving the station and then Charlie getting out or swimming up top.

Depends on how cold the water is. If the water is 70 degrees Fahrenheit or less, then the body slows down and one can survive a little longer.

From medhunters:

"Mammalian diving reflex (MDR) is a physiological reflex that helps our bodies save energy whenever we're under water. The body does this in three stages: first, by dropping our heart rate (bradycardia response); second, by constricting the flow of blood to our extremities (peripheral vasoconstriction); and third, by making sure that blood only flows to our brains and vital organs. The effects of MDR are more pronounced in cold water than in warm water (hence our sudden, shocked reaction to the surprise cold shower). And MDR is responsible for the strange circumstance which often allows a person to survive longer without oxygen underwater – whether they are conscious or not – than someone in a similar situation on dry land."

Other articles speak of people not suffering brain-damage even 1/2 - 1 hr after drowning and being resuscitated.

Drowning does not take a long time. 4-6 minutes of no o2 and the brain dies. So at most he could have survived 6 minutes without having brain damage. The only way Charlie would survive is if Desmond saved him and for some reason he is hiding down in the Looking Glass. He would not be able to survive Desmond leaving the station and then Charlie getting out or swimming up top.

I didn't mean to get into the issue of whether Charlie really died down there, the only point I was making was that we did not see a dead Charlie onscreen like we did with the others. We saw him dying, that's it, and he was even still moving until a second before it cut away. In classic television fashion, that is an open window.

Are yhou joking, that baby was perfectly full term. It looked nothing like it was underwieght. Have seen enough newborns to know what looks normal and what doesn't.

Doesn't explain when the baby was born, but the baby looked good in size, not undersized.

Also food was never an issue after she got preg. The food problems happened before her preg.
100%




Of course they couldn't very well be using an undersized preemie, but those babies who play Aaron have got to be four to six months old, even though he's only two months. I was speaking within the logic of the story, that if she had the child at eight months of her real pregnancy any small size of the supposedly nine month in utero child could be explained by the supposed starvation on the island. Jack's story is that the O6 were in dire straits, always threatened with starvation. Obviously no one who knows the O6 cover story can know that they were feasting on Dharma food drops.

jennylee, I come from an older generation when 36 weeks was considered full term, but I guess they've been revising that figure upward in recent years.

Cardie

I have to say, Sun calling out so adamantly for Jin during her labor really says to me that he's still alive. Yes, we've seen this kind of thing before in Jack (in his FF) saying "they" should go get his father who is, at that time (as far as we know), dead. It can certainly be interpreted both ways. Just pointing it out.

My gut tells me he's still alive on the island, but why would they bring the baby to a gravestone if he weren't dead? Seems kinda weird/morbid.

ok. I 'm sorry but i just have to the time to go through the 15 pages of theories that are posted about this so forgive me if this is smoewhere else BUT! the commericlas said we were going to find out tonight who the o6 were. so they are:
Jack
Kate
Hurley
Sun
Sayid
MICHAEL

Why?

My guess:

Jin did not make it off the island. Sun presumes him dead along with everyone else left on the island ... and even if she doesn't presume Jin dead, she has to at least keep up that ruse because it is part of the bargain of the Oceanic 6 that they were the only survivors of the crash. Sun has to lie to herself and everyone around her and pretend that Jin died in the crash along with the other 316 victims (plus the two who initially survived but died before rescue). That means Jin's grave is really only a headstone.

That means that the O6 consists of: Jack, Kate, Hurley, Sayid, Sun, and one of (Aaron, Michael, Walt) depending on how they want to spin the last member. Or, conversely, there is one additional member of the O6 who ends up being the person in the box but we haven't gotten to that point in the story yet. (Though we were supposed to know the full (O6 by this episode, per D&C).

But Jin did make it off the island. Remember he bought the panda bear and everything.

ok. I 'm sorry but i just have to the time to go through the 15 pages of theories that are posted about this so forgive me if this is smoewhere else BUT! the commericlas said we were going to find out tonight who the o6 were. so they are:
Jack
Kate
Hurley
Sun
Sayid
MICHAEL

Why?

Michael is not one of the O6. They are Jack, Kate, Hurley, Sun, Sayid, and Aaron.

But Jin did make it off the island. Remember he bought the panda bear and everything.

Um, that was a flashback.

Depends on how cold the water is. If the water is 70 degrees Fahrenheit or less, then the body slows down and one can survive a little longer.

From medhunters:

"Mammalian diving reflex (MDR) is a physiological reflex that helps our bodies save energy whenever we're under water. The body does this in three stages: first, by dropping our heart rate (bradycardia response); second, by constricting the flow of blood to our extremities (peripheral vasoconstriction); and third, by making sure that blood only flows to our brains and vital organs. The effects of MDR are more pronounced in cold water than in warm water (hence our sudden, shocked reaction to the surprise cold shower). And MDR is responsible for the strange circumstance which often allows a person to survive longer without oxygen underwater – whether they are conscious or not – than someone in a similar situation on dry land."

Other articles speak of people not suffering brain-damage even 1/2 - 1 hr after drowning and being resuscitated.


Don't know what articles your reading unless it is some of the new theories out there but not proven yet. Although according to the American Heart Association, Advanced Care Life Support, Basic Care Life Support, Pre Hospital Trauma Life Support, Basic Care Life Support, Pediactric Advanced Life Support, the National Guidelines for Pre Hospital Care, the Natioanl Board of EMT/Paramedic's, the D.O.T, the National Nursing Board just to name a few all stand by the statement the brain dies when deprived of O2 in 4-6mins. Its basic knowledge for anyone entering the medical field. Hypoxia due to not enough 02 kills the body and brain quickly due to anerobic metabolism being the only source for ATP in your body which does not produce enough ATP to keep vital organs alive. You need aroebic metabolism for that. Which can not happen without O2.

The only instances that can effect this differently is if the water is extremly cold