The captain implied Ben had more resources than Widmore to be able and stage the crash. How could he possibly have done that? But remember, "Don't trust the captain". Maybe he is lying and it really is a time anomaly crash and they are just covering up that phenomena? How could they know to stage the crash is 3 sections, just like the island crash?

The captain implied Ben had more resources than Widmore to be able and stage the crash. How could he possibly have done that? But remember, "Don't trust the captain". Maybe he is lying and it really is a time anomaly crash and they are just covering up that phenomena?

It was implied that Ben has access to a lot of money, but I believe Michael warned them not to trust the captain, so I assume he was lying...:confused:

Good Grief! Why would Ben stage the fake crash? I can see him offing the Widmore and Hanso folks but stage a 324 people plane crash? I don't think so. What I think is Widmore, if it is Widmore???Staged the crash to throw off the scent of other looking for the island. This is one massive cover up. Something on that island is worth more than human lives and I want to know what it is.

Why would Ben stage a crash? To protect the island. To end the searching for the plane and passengers. I'd think he had more reason to fake it than anyone else.

Why would Ben stage a crash? To protect the island. To end the searching for the plane and passengers. I'd think he had more reason to fake it than anyone else.
I agree with you 100% on that one. Whoever staged the fake crash was obviously doing it to keep people from accidentally finding the island. And I think that Ben has more motivation to "protect" the hidden whereabouts of the island than Widmore, even if Widmore is more able to pull off something like this more easily than Ben.

Let's not forget Ben's urgent demand of Patchy for a list of passengers and crew on the day of the crash. This was very improtant to find out about the new arrivals on the island, but absolutelty necessary if he were to fake the crash.

Why would Ben stage a crash? To protect the island. To end the searching for the plane and passengers. I'd think he had more reason to fake it than anyone else.

Yes, and now we know that he has the resources and the money to do something so outrageous. Obviously, the captain cannot be trusted at his word, but there is such a thing as unreliable narrators who may mix fiction with fact. I got the impression that the captain might have been truthful about Ben being the instigator of the fake 815 cover up- just as ultimately Daniel and Charlotte ultimately were telling the truth about what they were doing at the Tempest last week- but that doesn't mean we have to take everything they say at face value. We know that Ben is a bad guy. He lies. He's not above mass murder. But we also know that the freighter people have evidently been told different things and each seem to have their own agenda with being on that ship/that island.
Besides, we believe both Ben and the captain when they said it was Charles Widmore's ship and mission. Hey, neither may be trustworthy, but we've heard them both disclose that truth.

If Ben really did this, what would Widmoore had to have done to make Sayid become Ben's roaming killer???

If Ben really did this, what would Widmoore had to have done to make Sayid become Ben's roaming killer???

That was my point exactly in another post--I mean, I don't trust Ben, and I certainly don't trust Widmore, but I DO trust Sayid. So, I'm leaning towards the big baddie being Widmore, and that he planted the fake crash scene (and either the captain is lying, or the captain was simply mis-informed by Widmore).

Until they explain the Orchid video, I'm not necessarily convinced there is a "fake crash".

If there can be two rabbits, why can't there be two 815s?

Until they explain the Orchid video, I'm not necessarily convinced there is a "fake crash".

If there can be two rabbits, why can't there be two 815s?

+1 for this theory.

Not to hijack the thread, but if you watch every frame of the orchid video (in HD), several things appear to be: 1) In no frame are both rabbits visible. 2) the #'s on both rabbits are quite different, esp the "5's".

TPTB have said before that they know/expect every frame of every episode will be inspected by the critical eyes of their viewers - since in no frame are both rabbits visible, then to film the orchid video all TPTB needed was 1 rabbit (ie: TPTB expected us to conclude the video was a Dharma-hoax, a magic trick - pulling a rabbit out of a hat). If they'd used 1 rabbit, the 15s would be identical, & while it still could be a sham, we couldn't 'know' it to be one. I could be all wrong, but to me the 15's are clearly different, for whatever reason.

Although it goes against my first instinct that the captain was lying, it is possible that Ben staged the crash, if only for the quote which goes something like "Where would he get 350 dead bodies."

Ben actually had access to 350 dead bodies, the remnants of the Dharma initiative - maybe they weren't all in the pit?

Until they explain the Orchid video, I'm not necessarily convinced there is a "fake crash".

If there can be two rabbits, why can't there be two 815s?

Please keep in mind Lapidus' discovery that the "pilot" was not wearing a wedding ring.

... if only for the quote which goes something like "Where would he get 350 dead bodies."


I may not be helping much, but I'm pretty sure the quantity expressed was 324. What struck me as I heard that was that 324 was divisible by 108.
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Please keep in mind Lapidus' discovery that the "pilot" was not wearing a wedding ring.

I went back looking at the pilot episode where Jack, Kate & Charlie found the cockpit & going frame by frame, it was clear the guy had no wedding band on, clear as a bell (however, in a deleted scene from the boxed set w/Claire he did) (apologies if that qualifies as a spoiler & I shouldn't have discussed it)

I'm still completely baffled as to who the actual party behind the 'fake' crash is. Ben would seem to have the most reason. IF it was actually Widmore, I think his people are definitely not in the know. I'm assuming that Abaddon (sp?) works for Widmore as well, since he's the one who put the 4 chopper people together to be on the freighter. He seemed very convincing when telling Naomi that there were no survivors of that flight.

On the other hand, he could have been stressing that point to her in order to remind her that they went to a lot of trouble to make sure that there appeared to be no survivors, and that would be the story she should adhere to.

Oh I dunno! Could a 3rd party be responsible, because I'm really needing an option 3 right now LOL

When would Ben have had the opportunity to make the kind of money it would take to stage a fake crash? It's been implied that Ben is very, very wealthy - Miles asked him for a lot of money and Ben didn't deny having access to it.

Yet Ben has been, as far as we know, mostly living on the island since he was a boy. His father was a manual laborer. Where did all the money come from?

I may not be helping much, but I'm pretty sure the quantity expressed was 324. What struck me as I heard that was that 324 was divisible by 108.
100%


I went back looking at the pilot episode where Jack, Kate & Charlie found the cockpit & going frame by frame, it was clear the guy had no wedding band on, clear as a bell (however, in a deleted scene from the boxed set w/Claire he did) (apologies if that qualifies as a spoiler & I shouldn't have discussed it)

Check when he is holding the transceiver; he clearly has a wedding ring on.

I am thinking Widmore staged the crash to keep anyone else who is searching for Oceanic 815 to stop looking. He wants the island all to himself without any interference. Widmore could have simply told the crew that it was Ben who staged the crash

I am thinking Widmore staged the crash to keep anyone else who is searching for Oceanic 815 to stop looking. He wants the island all to himself without any interference. Widmore could have simply told the crew that it was Ben who staged the crash

I thought that too, we cant rule out that or the theory that Ben created the wreckage or even the fact that there was some split in the time line and the wreckage is real, and so was the wreckage on the island.

I thought that too, we cant rule out that or the theory that Ben created the wreckage or even the fact that there was some split in the time line and the wreckage is real, and so was the wreckage on the island.

I agree. Ben has as much if not more resources than Widmore and also could have staged that fake plane to keep anyone else from looking for the island. also, since the wreckage was found so far away from the location of the island it implies that whoever put it there wanted to keep anyone looking far far away

Check when he is holding the transceiver; he clearly has a wedding ring on.

Yep, & thanks ThesQuid, you are correct, he indeed has a wedding band on, I messed that one all up

Both Widmore and Ben have incentive to staging a fake crash.

Widmore's incentive is to not have people looking for a plane crash and finding the island. With the fake crash, no one looks and he can continue his own pursuit of finding the island.

Ben's incentive is to keep the island a secret. With a fake crash, no one comes looking for the island and he can keep the secret to himself. I can hear him saying "The island's mine!"

My guess is it all boils down to who has the stronger incentive. Which of the two it is I have yet to determine. Thoughts?

When would Ben have had the opportunity to make the kind of money it would take to stage a fake crash? It's been implied that Ben is very, very wealthy - Miles asked him for a lot of money and Ben didn't deny having access to it.

Yet Ben has been, as far as we know, mostly living on the island since he was a boy. His father was a manual laborer. Where did all the money come from?

I'm thinking that if Jacob could cure the cancer in Juliet's friend, he could help Ben come up with a couple billion dollars.

My theory is this: The Flight 815 at the bottom of the sea is, indeed, an "alternate" timeline one (similar to the two rabbits), as others have suggested, but the lack of a wedding ring may be due to *Frank* himself (his "alternate" self) having piloted it. (He is unmarried, I think).

I don't think faking such a thing, with all those bodies, is realistic, even to someone like Widmore or his like. I think the time line explanation is actually *more* plausible, and less fanciful, believe it or not.

I'm pretty sure Widmore did the stage... Gault's a liar.

I'd think he had more reason to fake it than anyone else

That's true. We all think he is a virgin. Oh wait!! you mean fake the crash!! I thought we were talking about something else. :blshing1:

Ben is trying to keep Widmore from finding the island. Maybe he staged the fake crash after the plane crashed to help keep him from finding the island.
OR, he planned to bring the plane down (as mentioned in other posts) and planned all along to stage the crash.

What if Ben and Widmore were partners in the beginning.. Like Ben got off the island and told Widmore about how cool the island is, got the funding from Widmore and then double crossed him... This would explain the money and means to come and go. AND why EVERYONE is lying. Start shoot holes in this, please.... : ) >

Ben is trying to keep Widmore from finding the island. Maybe he staged the fake crash after the plane crashed to help keep him from finding the island.
OR, he planned to bring the plane down (as mentioned in other posts) and planned all along to stage the crash.

The WHEN of the mid-ocean wreckage is definitely something that's piqued my interest. There's another thread concerning the bodies on the plane, and that's got me thinking that those in the drink seemed to be decomposed as expected for the time of the actual crash -- or close enough so that the world at large is falling for it.

However, a week or two in either direction probably wouldn't be all that apparent, except perhaps to the well-trained eye. A shame, because if we knew whether the alternate 815 was dunked before or after the real one went kablooie it would give us some clues to work with. And, of course, if the two crashed simultaneously we'd KNOW that they were both the same plane!

When do the rest of you think the fake went down, and why?

- mnw

The captain implied Ben had more resources than Widmore to be able and stage the crash. How could he possibly have done that? But remember, "Don't trust the captain". Maybe he is lying and it really is a time anomaly crash and they are just covering up that phenomena? How could they know to stage the crash is 3 sections, just like the island crash?

We know we can't trust Ben. It's been referred to many times that he is a liar plus proven that he doesn't alway's tell the truth. Now we are greeted with a new group of people that are sopposed to rescue our losties. But they are acting very strange and suspiscious themselves. We then recieve a note telling us that they are not (or at least the captian isn't) to be trusted. THEN add on top of that, micheal (who is a murderer and a liar himself) is the one who we presume delivered that little note. One side say's Windmore is the bad guy and one say's that Ben's the bad one. With all of this distrust being slung all over the place, Don't you just feel a little lost in who we should trust?:confused:

Right now I just want to go find a hatch and Bury myself.:rolleyes:

Why would Ben stage a crash? To protect the island. To end the searching for the plane and passengers. I'd think he had more reason to fake it than anyone else.It would also explain these line from TTLG:

ALEX: Why do you have to stop them? Why won't you just let them leave. BEN: Because I can't, Alex. If he had already staged the crash, he obviously couldn't then let them get rescued.

I'm pretty sure Widmore did the stage... Gault's a liar.That's true. I mean, when has Ben ever lied?

I suppose it is possible that Ben could have staged the wreck using the time manipulating properties of the island to actually crash the plane again, in a different time domain.

It seems that both Ben and Widmore seem to have their own agendas for staging the crash:

Ben would want to set up the fake wreckage so as to deceive search and rescue operations from accidentally stumbling upon the whereabouts of the island. And given the revelation that Ben has access to a lot of money and seemingly free access on and off the island, the implication here is that he just might have the resources to perpetrate such a feat.

Widmore would be equally motivated in staging a fake crash for the same reasons as Ben does - to throw other search and rescue operations off the trail - thus enabling him to have an unencumbered path towards his real objective: finding the island for himself.

So who do I think is the true mastermind of the faked wreckage?
I'm going to go with Ben on this one - and I'm basing it on the rationale that incorporates the fact that there eventually would be six Oceanic 815 survivors that ultimately emerge from the crash alive.

To begin with what we've seen and known of Ben thus far, there seems to be a bit of an "omniscient" air about him. That is, he always seems to know who's who amongst the Losties and moreover, he always seems to be one step ahead of everyone. On the other hand, the Widmore/Dharma faction appears to be at a disadvantage - in particular not knowing if anybody survived the crash, never mind knowing specifically who of those that did. We can infer this because even Abaddon is snooping around still trying to determine if there are more survivors (notably in his confrontation with Hurley in the mental ward). In this regard, Ben definitely has the upper hand.

With that said, back to my point: knowing which 6 passengers are going to make it off that island, who is in better control of that outcome - particularly if they initially perpetrated the faked crash? Ben. If there is to be a specific number of people to have died in a mock plane crash yet still have a small group of survivors, Ben is in a better position than Widmore to "pre-ordain" who the lucky 6 passengers will walk off the island. Widmore has no inside knowledge as to who is still alive.

Hence in this case, Widmore would not have been in any position to stage a wreck for just that reason: he doesn't truly know if there are any survivors. If he were to have staged the wreck he more likely would have had the approach where ALL the passengers perished in the crash - but of course his little deception would be greatly compromised if survivors appeared and raise even more red flags and scrutiny regarding this "find". If Widmore's objective of staging the crash was merely to throw other rescue operations off the trail, then the presence of these survivors would call into question the validity of the wreckage site and presumably a whole cattle call of agencies would start poring through the questionable crash site and other parts of the Pacific looking for answers. This is not what Widmore/Dharma would want. It would open up the possibility of the island inadvertently being discovered by somebody else if this were to happen. Knowing the unique properties of the island and the remote chance that people have survived, I would think that Widmore would be more hesitant to pull the "fake wreckage" card because that plan could backfire on him.

Hence, I find the theory that Ben staging the wreckage to throw Widmore off the Island's "trail" as being the more plausible theory. Seeing how Ben is always one step ahead, it seems almost expected that he would have a hand in staging the fake wreckage and moreover be two steps ahead by having advanced knowledge of who would become survivors (and thus tailor-making the wreckage to accommodate the possibility of survivors - a major detail that Widmore could not knowingly conjure up).
If the intended deception of the fake wreckage wasn't successful in throwing Widmore off his trail, then Ben would still have the "survivors card" up his sleeve to throw at him. And by making it so that these survivors make it off "the island" to give a BS story to the public that they were the only survivors and that there seemingly wasn't anything special about "the island", he might have another means of trumping Widmore once again.

But for this to work, Ben still has to set other wheels in motion to take care of that pesky problem that is the "freighter". They are the only ones that has any real knowledge of what's going on with the island and the one link that can blow the whole deal for Ben if they are able to get word back to Widmore. But as we all know, the freighter threat seemingly is neutralized at the moment - with no communications, now a busted engine, and nowhere to go. My presumption is that by season's end, something bad overall is going to happen to the entire freighter where they cannot properly report back to Widmore with specifics of what they've found.

And as for the Oceanic 6? Ben might arrange it so that they are rescued by some other helicopter rescue party (not Lapidus and his helicopter) that finds just these 6 people - and by design, these 6 are meant to perpetuate the cover story for Ben so that Widmore still cannot figure out whether the island they got off of was "the island" that he thinks it is.

It's not a fake crash. It's a real crash. It's the same plane in 2 places at once.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qpQABLRCU_0

TWO places at once. Superposition

It's not a fake crash. It's a real crash. It's the same plane in 2 places at once.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qpQABLRCU_0

TWO places at once. Superposition

I Think it is the same plane and i think Ben masterminded it using the powers of the island / time travel to get it there - I also think that the black box flight recorder of the plane in the trench is how Widmore has been able to find the island - as in even if its the same plane twice in two different places the data on the flight recorder couldnt be changed showing the last position of flight 815 before it went down , or at least being in one place (over the island ) and then in the next instant (after Ben created two planes) in a completeley different place thousands of miles away this is part of the reason Ben crashed it in the trench, hoping that the black box wouldnt be recovered)

When would Ben have had the opportunity to make the kind of money it would take to stage a fake crash? It's been implied that Ben is very, very wealthy - Miles asked him for a lot of money and Ben didn't deny having access to it.

Yet Ben has been, as far as we know, mostly living on the island since he was a boy. His father was a manual laborer. Where did all the money come from?
Time travel is a very powerful ability.. and one that can make anyone who cares to exploit it, very very rich. Any speculative endeavour.. be it a lottery ticket, or the stock market, or casino games, can create a wealth for someone instantly. Of course, this person would have to have more than one identity, or he would be caught.. but we already know that Ben has exactly that... as we saw all his passports in his secret room.
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It's not a fake crash. It's a real crash. It's the same plane in 2 places at once.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qpQABLRCU_0

TWO places at once. Superposition
What a fascinating post/link. Thank you for that. Pardon my lack of knowledge about photons, but are they not light particles? and isn't the illustration addressing reflection? Reflection not actually creating matter, but visual image?
If you could explain this a little, I'd be fascinated to learn more.