I don't think this has been posted yet. However, if it has, pardon the newbie :undecide:.

Last week I was convinced Ben is working for the greater good of everyone. Then tonight I'm thinking, maybe he IS the bad guy after all...maybe he DID stage the 815 plane in the trench....


...but what if the Captain/Widmore is lying about Ben's staging of the trench plane and Ben is telling the truth about Widmore's desire to exploit the island?

Who to believe? Someone help?
I keep going back and forth!

*gasp* or what if there is some Linus-Widmore alliance here?

eeeek!

help! :)

No doubt if you ask Ben - Widmore will be blamed for the staged crash.

Either may have had the resources to fake the crash.

That's the big question. Glad you started the thread. They are clearly enemies or something. Each will blame the other.

Personally, I see no reason to trust either of them or think that either of them is doing something "good." They probably both think they are doing the "right" thing, for whatever reason they think that is "right."

Only time will tell who is the lesser evil....

At this point I do believe that Ben wants to protect the island (whatever his belief of protection is) and that Widmore definitely wants to exploit it.

However, which of them is the good guy and telling the truth? NEITHER!

Neither. Both want control of the island. Everyone else is a pawn on a chess board....or a pebble on a backgammon board...

I was wrestling with this thought last week. Then I decided, they both are the bad guys. Ben wants the island for the power it gives him. He is the once and future (he hopes) leader of the Others. He has figured out the secrets of the island and how to use them to his own advantage. We know Widmore is aware of the power Ben holds, from what Miles said to Ben. Widmore wants that same power. He doesn't want to share it with Ben, nor does Ben want to share it.

I say, trust NO ONE, except the survivors of the Oceanic.

Neither. Both want control of the island. Everyone else is a pawn on a chess board....or a pebble on a backgammon board...


oooo good connection!

Not that Michael's the most trustworthy sorce, but his note (I'm assuming it was his) said don't trust the captain. Despite his past doings I trust Michael over the Captain. I still think Widmore is the bad guy in all of this.

I was wrestling with this thought last week. Then I decided, they both are the bad guys. Ben wants the island for the power it gives him. He is the once and future (he hopes) leader of the Others. He has figured out the secrets of the island and how to use them to his own advantage. We know Widmore is aware of the power Ben holds, from what Miles said to Ben. Widmore wants that same power. He doesn't want to share it with Ben, nor does Ben want to share it.


oooh i like this one

Yes it's definitely making more sense. They are enemies, but neither of them is necessarily "good, there's just someone who is the "lesser of two evils" I'm guessing.

Goodness!!!

But I have to admit (being a Ben fan) that when the Captain mentioned his name in connection with the trench plane, I was shocked, disturbed, but oh so excited because that is just SO evil...it adds so much more power to Ben than he already has! Magnificent! I love villains and Ben is definitely a great one!
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Not that Michael's the most trustworthy sorce, but his note (I'm assuming it was his) said don't trust the captain. Despite his past doings I trust Michael over the Captain. I still think Widmore is the bad guy in all of this.


that could've been Ben's brainwashing effects on Michael....

hmmmm

Where does one get 324 dead bodies?
Purge Pit anyone?

Where does one get 324 dead bodies?
Purge Pit anyone?

I thought that at first.....but that happened so long ago... I mean the bodies were much more decomposed than the ones in the fake plane....

I don't know I don't know!

:):):):)

Ben is wicked but Widmore isn't exactly a saint... I mean he treated Desmond like $#@& and that speaks to his character. Although you could say he was too honest...

If he wanted the island, he wouldn't care about doing away with everyone or whatever to get it, but he really seems to want Ben.

Why may be where the lies are. But I really think he doesn't want the island to exploit it. Just a feeling.

Yeah I don't really like Widmore...

I wouldn't believe a word either one of them said. :D

This is one theme that I really love on this show. Who to trust? I am sure that neither is quite telling the whole truth. One aspect that I thought was interesting was the fact that Charlotte and Dan knew about the purge. That happened some time ago. How did they find out about that? Maybe from one of Ben's spies, but Widmore certainly does seem to know a lot about the island.

Edit: Plus, the freighters certainly don't seem to be surprised that their are survivors of Flight 815. Either they found this out from one of Ben's spies or Widmore was the one to stage the crash.

Anything we learn from Michael is straight from the influence of Ben, not necessarily someone you think you can trust - like one of our Losties. It's Widmore and everyone vouching for his story, vs. Ben, and all the people he's convinced to follow his cause.

I think the conversation Ben had with Locke about how if 5000 people went to see the virgin Mary's face in moss, how many would go to see Locke on the island, hints that he might be responsible for the fake crash scene. He wants to keep people away from the island at all cost. I don't think the bodies came from the purge pit, though. He would probably not be able to get his people off the island to set it up, so would need to get help from his contacts in the outside world. Also, I'm not completely sure but didn't he show the pit to Locke after the "crash site" was found?

find815 left us with the impression that Widmore had guided the intrepid, mourning Sam to the wreckage of 815, which leads me to think that he is the one who left it there.

Ben's motive for staging it (protecting the island), as well as the vast power he seems to possess, both on and off the island, make his motivation seem more compelling though.
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oh, one more thing, given that Widmore seems to have had some association with the
Dharma initiative, perhaps he is just interested in Ben for betraying the initiative and helping to murder a bunch of people. aaah, too obvious to be true, but who knows?

Ben or Widmore? When you start reasoning it out it ends up like the poison cup scene from Princess Bride. You clearly cannont choose the cup in front of Ben. Inconceivable!

I'm not sure why everyone just believes the captain. He seems totally shady to me.

I never thought that the natives hadn't staged the crash. They didn't want anyone looking for the Losties.

Actually, I think the fact that Sayid is working for Ben in the future tips things away from Ben being THE big baddie, since I can't imagine Sayid working for Ben unless it is against a greater evil, and I still do think that greater evil is Widmore.

"Don't trust the captain" bah, more of Ben's mind games. Michael is his man, and is still following orders. Just like Juliet being ordered to kill Faraday and Lewis. The captain only seems shady because of the music they play in his scene and the appearance that he is guarding his own position, and may not actually have any more information than he is sharing. Oh yeah that and the hypnotic suggestion to the viewer that he is untrustworthy. Probably a decent guy trying to keep his crew from dying.

Remember, before Ben, Widmore, and the DHARMA Intitiative, there were the original inhabitants of the island and Jacob was their leader.

At some point the HANSO Foundation learns of the island, possibly from Alvar's ancestor, Magnus Hanso, captain of the Black Rock. Hanso, understanding the properties of the island can help alter the Valenzetti equation, sends the DHARMA folks there to perform their experiments. Enter Benjamin Linus.

Ben helps the Others kill the Dharma folks, and becomes their second in command, under Jacob. Gradually, Ben (who is socially retarded and sociopathic IMHO) learns the secrets of the island and begins exploiting them for his own personal and financial gain. He even learns how to subdue Jacob and control him, using some strange ash circle that keeps him confined and powerless in his mystery cabin. Perhaps the only way Jacob can venture out and about is by manifesting his will or consciousness in the form of a cloud of mysterious black smoke, or dead people.

Anyway, Ben begins to believe he can create his own private Utopia, with himself as Lord God King. Only problem is, his society cannot grow if the women can't have babies. It's doomed. Enter Juliet, Ben's future queen (even if she doesn't know it yet).

So Widmore acquires the journal from the Black Rock, which has only been read by the Hanso family up until 1996. Why he seeks it in the first place, who knows? But he learns of the island, and possibly its secrets. He begins a quest to acquire and control the island.

So the point of all of this THEORY is that while Ben and Widmore might both be bad guys, seeking to own, control, and exploit the island, I think Jacob is the damsel in distress, and John Locke the knight in shining armor.

Staying tuned...

Ben!

I truley beleive everything Ben does is for the "greater good" of the island.

It would be very unlikely that a character on this show is one dimensional and is not what they seam to be. Ben was part of the purge, but we also don't know all about it, or all about these Dharma people and what they were up to. I'm in no way saying Ben is perfect and a good guy, but I do think his mind set is "for the greater good of the island" and he will do what he has to for the island, and for Jacob, even if that means killing people who do or will do the island harm and could expose it.

Ben's a smart man, very manipulative and cunning, but he's NOT the big bad, that would be too obvious to make Ben out to be the true bad guy in LOST. Trust me, there is someone worse (most likely Widmore or the people working for / with him) and when it comes down it it, by the end of the show the losties will be working with Ben and the Others to fight against the person / people in charge of the freighter, and we've already seen part of this with Sayid.

oh, if widmore eventually turned out to be a realy GOOD guy - oh it would be SOME TWIST:rolleyes:

oh, if widmore eventually turned out to be a realy GOOD guy - oh it would be SOME TWIST:rolleyes:

You know, that occurred to me, too. If there is one thing we've learned about Ben, it's that he lies. He manipulates people at every turn. Which is why I get so frustrated that John keeps listening to him.

Ben is evil. How could you kill all of those DHARMA folks, and your own father, and not be evil? Add to that his manipulation that brought Juliet to the island and then wouldn't let her leave, and taking Walt away from his father?

As for doing it all to protect the island, well it's kind of like going to war in the name of religion, isn't it? At some point, the ends no longer justify the means and you go over to the dark side. Ben is looking more like Colonel Kurtz (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apocalypse_Now) all the time. Widmore may just be the Benjamin Willard going in to terminate him before he does any more damage.

I believe Ben all the way. He may be hiding stuff and distorting the truth, but he is, not only THE main character of Lost now, but also the one who gets to tell everything we need to know through his own story. He's doing it for all of them, not for himself. And whoever thinks otherwise, you can **** ****self, I'm over these petty discussions. Wait another 48 days, and you will see. Trust me (or don't , whatever).:cool:
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Ben!

I truley beleive everything Ben does is for the "greater good" of the island.

It would be very unlikely that a character on this show is one dimensional and is not what they seam to be. Ben was part of the purge, but we also don't know all about it, or all about these Dharma people and what they were up to. I'm in no way saying Ben is perfect and a good guy, but I do think his mind set is "for the greater good of the island" and he will do what he has to for the island, and for Jacob, even if that means killing people who do or will do the island harm and could expose it.

Ben's a smart man, very manipulative and cunning, but he's NOT the big bad, that would be too obvious to make Ben out to be the true bad guy in LOST. Trust me, there is someone worse (most likely Widmore or the people working for / with him) and when it comes down it it, by the end of the show the losties will be working with Ben and the Others to fight against the person / people in charge of the freighter, and we've already seen part of this with Sayid.

Very good, my friend, eXcellent post!
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Remember, before Ben, Widmore, and the DHARMA Intitiative, there were the original inhabitants of the island and Jacob was their leader.

At some point the HANSO Foundation learns of the island, possibly from Alvar's ancestor, Magnus Hanso, captain of the Black Rock. Hanso, understanding the properties of the island can help alter the Valenzetti equation, sends the DHARMA folks there to perform their experiments. Enter Benjamin Linus.

Ben helps the Others kill the Dharma folks, and becomes their second in command, under Jacob. Gradually, Ben (who is socially retarded and sociopathic IMHO) learns the secrets of the island and begins exploiting them for his own personal and financial gain. He even learns how to subdue Jacob and control him, using some strange ash circle that keeps him confined and powerless in his mystery cabin. Perhaps the only way Jacob can venture out and about is by manifesting his will or consciousness in the form of a cloud of mysterious black smoke, or dead people.

Anyway, Ben begins to believe he can create his own private Utopia, with himself as Lord God King. Only problem is, his society cannot grow if the women can't have babies. It's doomed. Enter Juliet, Ben's future queen (even if she doesn't know it yet).

So Widmore acquires the journal from the Black Rock, which has only been read by the Hanso family up until 1996. Why he seeks it in the first place, who knows? But he learns of the island, and possibly its secrets. He begins a quest to acquire and control the island.

So the point of all of this THEORY is that while Ben and Widmore might both be bad guys, seeking to own, control, and exploit the island, I think Jacob is the damsel in distress, and John Locke the knight in shining armor.

Staying tuned...

Ahahaha, a sweet assumption, but Lost is not a corporate bollocks show, nor are the writers stupid. Hopefully you figured that out :)

Very good, my friend, eXcellent post!
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Why, thank you :biggrin:

I'm going with the person whose side Sayid ends up taking... even though Sayid did say to Ben "the day I trust you is the day I sell my soul".

I absolutely trust Ben over the cap'n. Staging the flight 815 crash seems like something Widmore would be more capable of.

But I've been wrong before...

I'm going with the person whose side Sayid ends up taking...
Sayid could make a wrong choice....

Sayid could make a wrong choice....

True, but do you really think Sayid would go around killing people if he wasn't sure it was for a good reason?

True, but do you really think Sayid would go around killing people if he wasn't sure it was for a good reason?
The Good reason for killing bad guys does not mean that Ben Is a GOOD ONE

True, but do you really think Sayid would go around killing people if he wasn't sure it was for a good reason?
Uh...unfortunately... yes. As we have seen from his time in the Republican Guard, he will do many things to protect those he loves. He tortures a man in order to get information from Kelvin about Nadia.

In The Economist, Ben mentions that Sayid has previously made mistakes because of his heart. After seeing the way that Sayid reacted to the Captain talking about "someone put 324 families through a grieving process," I'm betting that he's thinking about Nadia all over again, and any opportunity to (a) make sure she's safe and (b) reconnect with her...Sayid is a man willing to do just about anything for that.

In terms of the OP, I'm still a little on the fence. It's easy to get sucked into the theories about the 3 big players -- Widmore, Jacob/Ben, and Paik -- because there must be some reason that so much time was spent on their character development. I think that all 3 entities are ruthlessly ambitious, more than a bit amoral, and uber-Machiavellian in their intentions. There are no real Kants on this show.

The popups for the last episode shed absolutely NO light on the matter for me in terms of Widmore v Ben. So at this point, I'm only signing up for theories about the time travel, and letting the trust issue fall by the wayside until we get...ahem...further instructions. ;)

What I'm saying is, do you really think Sayid would spend his time working for/with Ben, killing random people without having proof of what he was working to achieve? Especially when this info is coming from BEN of all people.

He was falling for that girl (Elsa was it...?), and his heart got involved, but when it came down to it he killed her before she could expose him or Ben to her boss, and as Ben said, it was to save his friends. I honestly think Sayid is working with Ben to rid of Widmore and his people working with / for him in order to save the remaining people on the island. Sayid knows what he's doing....

What I'm saying is, do you really think Sayid would spend his time working for/with Ben, killing random people without having proof of what he was working to achieve? Especially when this info is coming from BEN of all people.
And I'm saying that I don't think the reason/proof matters if Ben is holding something more precious over Sayid's head, be it Nadia, be it the other O6, be it the Losties left on the island.

And I'm saying that I don't think the reason/proof matters if Ben is holding something more precious over Sayid's head, be it Nadia, be it the other O6, be it the Losties left on the island.

I just find it very unlikely that a character on this show is one dimensional and is not what they seam to be. Ben was part of the purge, but we also don't know all about it, or all about these Dharma people and what they were up to. I'm in no way saying Ben is perfect and a good guy, but I do think his mind set is "for the greater good of the island" and he will do what he has to for the island, and for Jacob, even if that means killing people who do or will do the island harm and could expose it.

Ben's a smart man, very manipulative and cunning, but I do NOT believe he's the big bad, that would be too obvious to make Ben out to be the true bad guy in LOST. Trust me, there is someone worse (most likely Widmore or the people working for / with him) and when it comes down it it, by the end of the show the losties will be working with Ben and the Others to fight against the person / people in charge of the freighter, and we've already seen part of this with Sayid.

I just find it very unlikely that a character on this show is one dimensional and is not what they seam to be. Ben was part of the purge, but we also don't know all about it, or all about these Dharma people and what they were up to. I'm in no way saying Ben is perfect and a good guy, but I do think his mind set is "for the greater good of the island" and he will do what he has to for the island, and for Jacob, even if that means killing people who do or will do the island harm and could expose it.

Ben's a smart man, very manipulative and cunning, but I do NOT believe he's the big bad, that would be too obvious to make Ben out to be the true bad guy in LOST. Trust me, there is someone worse (most likely Widmore or the people working for / with him) and when it comes down it it, by the end of the show the losties will be working with Ben and the Others to fight against the person / people in charge of the freighter, and we've already seen part of this with Sayid.
I made no judgments about Ben's level of "badness." I know that they're not one-dimensional. And I accept the possibility that Ben is the better of the baddies.

The question was about Sayid's behavior, not Ben's. Therefore, I offered my opinion about what SAYID would do, regardless of whether Ben's plan was in anyone's interests other than Ben's. I apologize if you thought I was commenting on Ben/Widmore/anyone else's intentions or whether the plans themselves are for the greater good. I'm not sure who to trust. I just know that Sayid has shown himself willing to do just about anything for those he cares for. Ben has shown himself to care more about ends than means, and even if his plan is for the best, there is no guarantee of his methods (which it's clear you've been saying.)

This show certainly makes for interesting conversations about personal ethics. Love it.

That's the big question. Glad you started the thread. They are clearly enemies or something. Each will blame the other.

Personally, I see no reason to trust either of them or think that either of them is doing something "good." They probably both think they are doing the "right" thing, for whatever reason they think that is "right."

Only time will tell who is the lesser evil....

I agree. imo they both have the resources to pull of this kind of stunt and they both have similar objectives...to take control of the island

Where does one get 324 dead bodies?
Purge Pit anyone?

How about a medical school? City morgue? Large city hospital?

Wouldn't be that hard to procure them.

In terms of the OP, I'm still a little on the fence. It's easy to get sucked into the theories about the 3 big players -- Widmore, Jacob/Ben, and Paik -- because there must be some reason that so much time was spent on their character development. I think that all 3 entities are ruthlessly ambitious, more than a bit amoral, and uber-Machiavellian in their intentions. There are no real Kants on this show.


This is a fine point, but don't forget that there's yet another player that's been developed -- Dharma/Hanso. I can't imagine that they've just rolled over and played dead since being thrown off the island in the purge. I suspect that Ben either is or has once been alligned with one of the other three, considering his apparent travel and the fact that he's negotiating in sums of millions of dollars.

Also, a side note... when we consider that the people who once freely admitted to working for Penny Widmore are now freely admitting to working for Charles Widmore, I'm suspecting that no Widmores whatsoever are involved with the freighter...

This is a fine point, but don't forget that there's yet another player that's been developed -- Dharma/Hanso. I can't imagine that they've just rolled over and played dead since being thrown off the island in the purge. I suspect that Ben either is or has once been alligned with one of the other three, considering his apparent travel and the fact that he's negotiating in sums of millions of dollars.
Ack, you're absolutely right...I had a momentary brain fart. Thanks for the reminder.

Also, a side note... when we consider that the people who once freely admitted to working for Penny Widmore are now freely admitting to working for Charles Widmore, I'm suspecting that no Widmores whatsoever are involved with the freighter...
One of those "all roads seem to lead to A, therefore they must go to B" scenarios?

One of those "all roads seem to lead to A, therefore they must go to B" scenarios?

It's more like the writers are trying to guide us in one particular direction, but with "evidence" that can easily be taken back, as it's from people with a history of lying.

The idea that I don't believe Ben shouldn't be too hard to accept on its own. This goes especially well with the fact that Ben showed Locke a video with no connection at all to the freighter, made his claim, and Locke completely swallowed it. That was just classic Locke and classic Ben.

As to Gault's claim, remember that these are people who were already caught in a lie about who's financing them. After that, would they just "come clean" and decide to tell all? That's neither likely on TV nor in real life. We'd expect another cover story, hopefully one done a little better than Gault simply spilling out a lot of unasked-for information, followed by the "doc" trying to assure Sayid that the Captain is just a really straightforward guy, who tells it like it is. That was just sloppy covering-of-their-backsides. IMHO, whoever they'd fall back on as their second cover story can be almost 100% ruled out...

Then consider that Darlton have had more than one opportunity to simply say, "Yes, Widmore is the one behind the boat," and they haven't done it. In the podcast, they talked about what Ben said, and then went into some distracting side banter. After coming out of the banter, they subtly changed the direction of the question and pointed to a different matter altogether. That looks like a subtle effort to make it look like they're backing up the Widmore/boat connection without actually committing to anything. In a subsequent interview, when the connection was brought up, they couldn't try that distraction twice in a row, so they simply said they had no comment. If they had been trying to establish the Widmore/boat connection in the show, and it was actually true, I'd expect them to just end it and say "yes" to it all. If it was true, it would have at least given an answer to the question. But they didn't.

So it's not like all roads are leading to A; it's more like, "people who've misled or misdirected us in the past are saying that the road leads to A."

How about a medical school? City morgue? Large city hospital?

Wouldn't be that hard to procure them.

or pull off a Jonestown!

I can't help but feeling that Ben will end up being redeemed by the end of the series. When we finally get the whole puicture.

I do not trust Widmore yet. I still kind of trust Ben.

This is one theme that I really love on this show. Who to trust? I am sure that neither is quite telling the whole truth. One aspect that I thought was interesting was the fact that Charlotte and Dan knew about the purge. That happened some time ago. How did they find out about that? Maybe from one of Ben's spies, but Widmore certainly does seem to know a lot about the island.

Edit: Plus, the freighters certainly don't seem to be surprised that their are survivors of Flight 815. Either they found this out from one of Ben's spies or Widmore was the one to stage the crash.


Who to trust? EXACTLY! Someone on this thread said they ONLY trust the original survivors -but we know ALL of them are flawed in some way - were "lost" in real life and didn't always make the best choices - morally or otherwise. Yet, for the most part, I think most of ous only trust them!

I was wrestling with this thought last week. Then I decided, they both are the bad guys. Ben wants the island for the power it gives him. He is the once and future (he hopes) leader of the Others. He has figured out the secrets of the island and how to use them to his own advantage. We know Widmore is aware of the power Ben holds, from what Miles said to Ben. Widmore wants that same power. He doesn't want to share it with Ben, nor does Ben want to share it.

I say, trust NO ONE, except the survivors of the Oceanic.

I agree that they both are bad guys.

Ben is, IMHO, quite a bit like Locke when it comes to the island. He sees it somewhat as a diety and is willing to kill to protect it. However, this is not for some 'greater good' though he'd tell others that to manipulate them. He wants to protect the island because he has felt the island talk to him, embrace him, and give him control that his schmuck of a father had left lacking in his life. In both Locke and Ben's case, the island has taken two lost and wounded (and perhaps in Ben's case, hopelessly scarred) souls and gave them a sense of meaning and purpose. It's that sense of meaning and purpose that forces them to protect the island from outside forces. Hence the Losties, if they try and get off the island and back to the mainland are a threat, and Widmore, trying to get to the island is a threat.

Widmore, I think, wants some sort of gain off the island. My guess is his overall intent is to exploit it for some purpose. How long exactly he knew about it, I don't know, but my guess is that in 1996 he was already looking, hence he bought the journal from the Black Rock at that auction. In order to control the island and whatever use he'll be able to make of it, he's going to need to get rid of Ben and his others, who are in his way, and anyone else on the island that could possibly cause trouble, especially if he intends to keep his discovery and exploitation of the island secret.

I do NOT Trust Ben
I have an idea that He could be the one who sent a freighter

This is a fine point, but don't forget that there's yet another player that's been developed -- Dharma/Hanso. I can't imagine that they've just rolled over and played dead since being thrown off the island in the purge.

Dharma is apparently still making food drops onto the island.

Why is this still happening, when their people were purged several years ago?


Just one example of how things aren't as cut and dried as we sometimes wish.

I find myself wondering whether someone else has taken over Dharma and
that's why the drops continue... or is Hanso an alias for Widmore.... or ??

Where does one get 324 dead bodies?
Purge Pit anyone?
Those were more like skeletons.
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Last week I was convinced Ben is working for the greater good of everyone. Then tonight I'm thinking, maybe he IS the bad guy after all...maybe he DID stage the 815 plane in the trench....


...but what if the Captain/Widmore is lying about Ben's staging of the trench plane and Ben is telling the truth about Widmore's desire to exploit the island?
Ben working for the greater good of everyone? Please -- then why would he shoot Locke when he learned that Locke could communicate with Jacob. Ben wants to control the island for the sake of his own power. I've always believed that he staged the crash off Bali. He's the one primarily interested in hiding the island from others, because he is now (or at least was then) the one in control of it. I think Widmore also wants to exploit the island for his own power. They are both bad people. The only hope for the island (and thus for humanity) is John Locke.

I can't help but feeling that Ben will end up being redeemed by the end of the series. When we finally get the whole puicture.

I get a Snape vibe with Ben. We are lead to believe through the series that Ben is the Big Bad, then when we start feeling sorry for him, and actually wondering if he is good, we see him take part in the purge, reassuring us that he is the bad bad man, but there are still a lot of things we don't know......

What was Dharma doing? Were Dharma in some way harming the island, the natives and Jacob? I mean...really, we know there is a connection between Widmore and Dharma / Hanso, and we know that the natives and Ben don't want them on the island.

While it looks bad for Ben, in the end I think we'll get a view of Dharma and Widmore and the goings on to show us that he was doing what he was doing for the island's greater good.

Yes, Ben has killed people, but so has almost ALL of the losties because they felt they were doing it for THEIR good.

I can't help but feeling that Ben will end up being redeemed by the end of the series. When we finally get the whole puicture.

Ben is a fabulous villain with interesting motivations and it would be a waste if the writers were simply to send him 'down in flames' at the end of the story. Yet it might not work well if they simply made him 'good' and suggested that we emotionally walk away from all his atrocities.

Still, they could do interesting things that both dealt justly with him and suggested some sort of redemption. For example, they might end the story wih his choosing to perform an act that would kill him, but saved both Our Heroes and the island.

That would be believable, but hive him a heroic exit. As long as he doesn't write "not pennys boat" on his hand or anything else too similar to Charlie's ending, it could be touching and fitting...

Dharma is apparently still making food drops onto the island.

Why is this still happening, when their people were purged several years ago?


Just one example of how things aren't as cut and dried as we sometimes wish.

I find myself wondering whether someone else has taken over Dharma and
that's why the drops continue... or is Hanso an alias for Widmore.... or ??

One of the Dharma videos with Alvar Hanso has him saying that whatever happens, the food drops "will continue in perpetuity"... which means forever (or a very long time). I thought it was a strange statement when I heard it...why would they need resupplying for a very long time? What was the Dharma plan?

I haven't forgotten Hanso/Dharma, and I think they still have a big role yet to play. Remember Tom mentioned Hanso to the Losties once, yet we know Ben sided against Dharma in the war with the Hostiles.

I think Hanso even owns Oceanic Air.

One of the Dharma videos with Alvar Hanso has him saying that whatever happens, the food drops "will continue in perpetuity"... which means forever (or a very long time). I thought it was a strange statement when I heard it...why would they need resupplying for a very long time? What was the Dharma plan?

I haven't forgotten Hanso/Dharma, and I think they still have a big role yet to play. Remember Tom mentioned Hanso to the Losties once, yet we know Ben sided against Dharma in the war with the Hostiles.

I think Hanso even owns Oceanic Air.

The Hanso "perpetuity" comment may have assumed that Dharma would stay on the island in perpetuity. I'd suspect that ol' Alvar might not feel obligated to drop any more food if his people were all gone.

I don't have the reference, but I'm pretty sure that Darlton once said that just because the food packages have a parachute, don't assume they're being dropped. I've thought for a long time that they're actually appearing as a manifestation of the "magic box" that Ben described to Locke.

The box/the island provides what you want really badly. People get hungry and think of food. The island knows what kind of food had been dropped in the island in the past and provides more of the same...

Now that I think about the food drops...I wonder if they are coming from underground versus by air...maybe it's safter to approach the island under the water ... i.e. the submarine seems to have brought the Dharma employees and Juliet to the island. Coming by air might be riskier (leads to more side effects).

Do you think Frank Lapidus is in on all of the freighties' secrets?

It was attached to a parachute though

i don't know after this episode i started thinking maybe Ben and Widmore were in the same team... i mean how michael ended on this boat without Walt who appears to be on the island??? Michael was following Ben's coordonates...and it leads him right to Widmore's boat... that's a possiblity.

It was attached to a parachute though

By my suggestion, I would expect it to. Consider...

Throughout the halcyon Dharma days, food packages are dropped onto the island in palettes, with a parachute, a blinker, and Dharma packaging. The people who see them think "food." The island notices this. Years later, when Dharma is gone and people on the island think "food," it produces palettes with a blinker, a parachute, and Dharma packaging, just like it's learned in the years past.

And when Kate longed for a gun case containing a toy plane that was so dear to her she was willing to kill for it, the case just happened to appear, and in a place where it couldn't have been.
When young Ben longed for his mother, she appeared.
When Jack thought about his dead father, he appeared.
When Eko missed his dead brother, he appeared.
When the bottle of messages washed ashore and Sun and Shannon found it, Shannon apparently thought sadly of the drowned little boy on the raft, and a WetWalt appeared.
While less certain, Charlie wanted his guitar more than anything else, and it appeared.
Perhaps even the drug plane appeared, due to Eko's reminiscences of the day when his dear brother died...The magic box is working and working well...

Both of them are evil, lets hope Christian Shepherd has some say in this still.........be the good recovered immortal alcoholic!

Team Ben!

i don't know after this episode i started thinking maybe Ben and Widmore were in the same team... i mean how michael ended on this boat without Walt who appears to be on the island??? Michael was following Ben's coordonates...and it leads him right to Widmore's boat... that's a possiblity.

I've been suggesting for some time that they were on the same team -- or at least had at one time been on the same team. This would also explain all of Ben's apparent travelling and how he could actually negotiate with Miles for sums in the millions of dollars...

Also, it would have taken more than 3.2 million dollars just to keep that submarine running for all the years since the purge...

usually lurk here, but a quick thought: two possibilities I can think of w/ the food drops... 1) They are still coming from Dharma/Hanso for some reason, 2) If the island/Ben/Jacob really do have some sort of power over time, it could be the previous food drops being manifested over and over, "pulled out of time" so to speak. Maybe that's crazy, I dunno. But I do think that there's a lot more "sci-fi" stuff that will end up being part of the show, even though I know a lot of people had hoped that wouldn't be the case...

wesb, your post on the island manifesting what people really want.... I had not considered that, but all of your examples make a compelling case. Very interesting. thanks

Ben and the Others are mass murderers. There is no way around that.

Even if it turns out the DHARMA folks were somehow harming or threatening the island, they were killed because "they couldn't even get along with the island's original inhabitants." Harsh. Sure, we may find out why this was really necessary, but this is all we know so far.

Also, if we are to believe Dan and Charlotte, Ben and the Others were plotting to kill everyone on the island AGAIN, including the Oceanic survivors, using the poison gas in the Tempest.

I don't care how special this island is, I can't see how anyone can defend Ben and his actions. The Others (including Ben) keep referring to themselves as the good guys, and I have thought for some time that this will eventually be revealed to be true. But there will have to be justification for these events that is way beyond GOOD.

As for Widmore, all we know is:
- he was mean to Desmond,
- he beat up some guy on Ben's video,
- he's rich,
- Ben says he's the enemy, and
- Ben lies

Ben and the Others are mass murderers. There is no way around that.

Even if it turns out the DHARMA folks were somehow harming or threatening the island, they were killed because "they couldn't even get along with the island's original inhabitants." Harsh. Sure, we may find out why this was really necessary, but this is all we know so far.

Also, if we are to believe Dan and Charlotte, Ben and the Others were plotting to kill everyone on the island AGAIN, including the Oceanic survivors, using the poison gas in the Tempest.

I don't care how special this island is, I can't see how anyone can defend Ben and his actions. The Others (including Ben) keep referring to themselves as the good guys, and I have thought for some time that this will eventually be revealed to be true. But there will have to be justification for these events that is way beyond GOOD.

As for Widmore, all we know is:
- he was mean to Desmond,
- he beat up some guy on Ben's video,
- he's rich,
- Ben says he's the enemy, and
- Ben lies

You do realize almost every single losties has killed or murdered someone, yet it's ok to trust them but not Ben? We have no idea what went down with Dharma and the natives and what Dharma were really up to. How do we know if maybe Dharma were there dong experiments That would lead to global disaster and the natives / Jacob /Ben had to stop them? We don't know, but anything is possible. Why are people so quick to believe and trust Widmore, a man who has connections to Dharma and Hanso and someone who we know is a rich, powerful and mean man?

Really thought, murder is murder, yes I know, but why is it ok to follow and trust Sawyer, Sayid, Eko, Kate, Michael, Ana Lucia, Sun, Jin, Hurley, etc etc...who have all killed, and even murdered people but not Ben, when we don't even know his whole story?

You do realize almost every single losties has killed or murdered someone, yet it's ok to trust them but not Ben?
Ben killed a lot of people, including his own father...

Team Ben!

That sounds good to me! *snort* Until we learn another horrible thing about his past. Widmore just....I love Des. So Widmore= bad. That's all I'll say at this point.

a) Ben slaughtered innocent women and their unborn children by keeping them hostage on the island.

b) Widmore? There's no relationship, inverse or direct, between arrogance and trustworthiness.

c) The captain? He's not *yet* been shown to be directly responsible for his crew's or anyone's death.

Ben's been voted off Trust Island.
Widmore and the captain are up for election.

Ben killed a lot of people, including his own father...

No, we saw Ben kill his father and attempt to kill Locke, but we never saw him kill the other Dharma. I'm not saying he didn't take part in it, but it seems to me the rest of the Dharma were being killed by the natives when Ben was killing his father. And we don't know if all Dharma, women and children were killed. I doubt they killed children seeing as they are desperate to continue their people. So we know for sure he personally killed his father and attempted to kill Locke.

Yet we know Michael has killed at least 2 people, who knows how many people Eko has killed or has order to be killed, same goes with Sayid. We know Ana Lucia has killed 2, Hurley accidentally killed a bunch on the deck, and purposely ran over an Other. Sun killed an Other, who knows how many people Sawyer and Jin has killed. Kate's killed at least 2, Charley killed Ethan, etc etc etc....

Actually, I think the fact that Sayid is working for Ben in the future tips things away from Ben being THE big baddie, since I can't imagine Sayid working for Ben unless it is against a greater evil

Exactly what I was thinking - I trust Saiyd's judgment over just about anyone on this show, and if he is working for Ben in the future then there has to be a good reason for it. This makes me think that Ben's intentions are at least better than Widmore's though I wouldn't go so far as to say Ben is the "good guy."

Exactly what I was thinking - I trust Saiyd's judgment over just about anyone on this show, and if he is working for Ben in the future then there has to be a good reason for it. This makes me think that Ben's intentions are at least better than Widmore's though I wouldn't go so far as to say Ben is the "good guy."

Completely agree. Sayid has always been the one I said If I were on the island I would want to stick close to. He knows what he's doing.

I haven't seen it mentioned so I thought I would bring it up here...I keep coming back to the thought that Locke entered 77 in the flame prior to the big bang there. This code was meant as a distress signal from the Dharma Islanders to Dharma Corporate, if you will.

There's been just about enough time for Dharma to assemble and transport a rescue team since then, in the show's chronology. It was made clear to Naomi that this was a military-type operation. They led her to believe she'd be going into a war zone.

So think about this. It is highly likely that in the original purge, Dharma was made aware of the incursion via this same code. I don't remember the dates, but this is possibly the time when Hurley's friend (from whom he heard the numbers) or Rousseau's team arrived in the vicinity of the island. The investigation team was lost, Dharma cut their losses.

But then, years and years later, another distress signal is received by Dharma. Maybe they thought there had been survivors who had escaped a long captivity, whatever. All they could know was another distress code had been sent.

I've been thinking for a while that the freighties are just a response to the code having been entered.

I haven't seen it mentioned so I thought I would bring it up here...I keep coming back to the thought that Locke entered 77 in the flame prior to the big bang there. This code was meant as a distress signal from the Dharma Islanders to Dharma Corporate, if you will.

There's been just about enough time for Dharma to assemble and transport a rescue team since then, in the show's chronology. It was made clear to Naomi that this was a military-type operation. They led her to believe she'd be going into a war zone.

So think about this. It is highly likely that in the original purge, Dharma was made aware of the incursion via this same code. I don't remember the dates, but this is possibly the time when Hurley's friend (from whom he heard the numbers) or Rousseau's team arrived in the vicinity of the island. The investigation team was lost, Dharma cut their losses.

But then, years and years later, another distress signal is received by Dharma. Maybe they thought there had been survivors who had escaped a long captivity, whatever. All they could know was another distress code had been sent.

I've been thinking for a while that the freighties are just a response to the code having been entered.


Interesting!