Speechless...

He sent him on the Walk-About...

"When we meet again, you'll owe me one..."

Yeah I'm really scared to see what Locke owes him. Creepy.

Points to me that I instantly knew it was Abaddon! w00t!

I was really surprised that he turns out to be an Island/Jacob/Ben guy instead of a Widmore/Dharma guy. Why then would he appear to Hurley in the institution asking if they were still alive on the island when Ben knows perfectly well that they are?

I think Abbadon and Alpert are on opposite sides of the Ben/Widmore war, and we just saw both of them trying to get their hands on Locke. I'm thinking that if they were on the same side, ie Ben's/the island's, then Abbadon wouldn't have to ask Hurley in the future if anyone was still left on the island; he would be able to get there and find out himself (unless the whole island moving thing screws that up, but I can't go there right now). Alpert for some reason didn't take his opportunity with Locke, so Abbadon tried to get his hands on him later, after his miracle.

So is Abbadon bad? Is Locke bad? Was choosing the knife Locke accepting his destiny as the bad guy?

I was really surprised that he turns out to be an Island/Jacob/Ben guy instead of a Widmore/Dharma guy. Why then would he appear to Hurley in the institution asking if they were still alive on the island when Ben knows perfectly well that they are?

I'm confused about Abaddon too......we see him with Naomi and recruiting the Fantastic Four, so technically working for Widmore, yet he gets John to go on the Walkabout which gets him to the Island. So was Abaddon working for Widmore or did he infiltrate the operation and has another agenda? So confusing.....:34853_huh:

I'm thinking Abaddon isn't with Widmore or Ben. Thinking he's a third party involved in this. The islands orignal people (the hostiles)

So where do you all think Locke and Abbadon will meet again?
We haven't been given any indication that Abbadon is on the island, or that Locke ever leaves.
Maybe it wasn't loaded with meaning, maybe just something he said in passing "till we meet again..." type thing.

I think Abbadon and Alpert are on opposite sides of the Ben/Widmore war, and we just saw both of them trying to get their hands on Locke. I'm thinking that if they were on the same side, ie Ben's/the island's, then Abbadon wouldn't have to ask Hurley in the future if anyone was still left on the island; he would be able to get there and find out himself (unless the whole island moving thing screws that up, but I can't go there right now). Alpert for some reason didn't take his opportunity with Locke, so Abbadon tried to get his hands on him later, after his miracle.

I agree totally. Locke's teacher and presumably Richard wanted Locke to be a Man of Science. But Locke wanted to be the Hunter, and that's what Abaddon wanted from him too.

Makes Desmond's saying about "see you in another life" take on a whole new meaning, doesn't it?

jennylee27, I think you are right now that I have thought a little more about it. Abbadon must have been there just as Richard was to try to pull Locke into their respective camps.

Thinking more about what I said above: I think that if John can learn to see who he truly is, and stop being manipulated and lead by other people, he will finally make the right choice. Whatever that right choice is.

I agree totally. Locke's teacher and presumably Richard wanted Locke to be a Man of Science. But Locke wanted to be the Hunter, and that's what Abaddon wanted from him too.
That's a good point. And yet, Locke the hunter has been accepted by the island.
So where do you all think Locke and Abbadon will meet again?
We haven't been given any indication that Abbadon is on the island, or that Locke ever leaves.
Maybe it wasn't loaded with meaning, maybe just something he said in passing "till we meet again..." type thing.
I wouldn't be surprised if they met again in the last 3 hours of the season. It seems awfully anticipatory to have him and Alpert in this episode. And if Abbadon is on Widmore's side, as I personally suspect, Locke is going to have one major conflict of interest going on.

I think Abbadon and Alpert are on opposite sides of the Ben/Widmore war, and we just saw both of them trying to get their hands on Locke. I'm thinking that if they were on the same side, ie Ben's/the island's, then Abbadon wouldn't have to ask Hurley in the future if anyone was still left on the island; he would be able to get there and find out himself (unless the whole island moving thing screws that up, but I can't go there right now). Alpert for some reason didn't take his opportunity with Locke, so Abbadon tried to get his hands on him later, after his miracle.

I agree totally. Locke's teacher and presumably Richard wanted Locke to be a Man of Science. But Locke wanted to be the Hunter, and that's what Abaddon wanted from him too.

LostLaura, I like that idea!! Good thinking, it makes alot of sense. When Locke's teacher was telling him about science, I was like WTF?!?! Jack's the Man of Science, Locke's the Man of Faith. What should Locke have chosen instead of the knife if Richard wanted him to be a "Man of Science'? What was left that would have worked? The Book of Law?

I'm thinking from this that the island has its own agenda that is basically amoral. The island clearly chose Locke from birth--his surviving his premature birth and then surviving the fall from Cooper's apartment window. It sent him visions of Smokey.

But there are two forces who want to control what the island can do, and they are a lot bigger than Ben and Widmore; they are probably Heaven and Hell. It will only be when Locke makes a definitive choice (which seems to be to embrace his loser/nerd destiny rather than want to be the hunter and sports star) that the island can become a heaven and not a hell, which Ben was sure unable to pull off.

Cardie

Well, I was interested in the miracle that Abbadon was telling John about. Then, I remembered he's the one who sent the Naomi and the scientists to the Island so that makes me unsure that he's a man of faith. But, it sure looks like he was being pushed as a young man to be a man of science. That's for sure.
As far as the objects go, I think that Locke chose Richard's knife and that's why Richard got so upset and left.

the whole Locke Abbadon connection in the past blew my mind. I will not be surprised if they had a relationship in the future maybe around Season 6.
This episode with the appearances of Alpert/Abbadon in locke's flashback makes it feel like there are super characters on Lost who are one step above Jack, Kate, Sawyer. (Locke is quickly becoming one of these super people.)

There are two types of super characters Richard and Abbadon falling on opposing types. And guess who the two heads of these groups are Ben and Widmore. Everyone else is a pace in the game and guess who was very important to have,
our own Mr. John Locke

I think if nothing else, Abbadon knows that Locke was on flight 815. And when the O6 return and Locke isn't one of them, he knows that something's up, considering he believes Locke to be quite miraculous. And all things being equal, if anyone survived the crash, Locke would have been one of them. That's why he's asking Hurley if they are still alive. Not quite sure what his agenda is or where his allegiance lies yet, but I think it's possible Abbadon is motivated by collecting on whatever it is that Locke owes him...

I think Abbadon is with a 3rd group as well... I also think Alpert and co had the island before DI (Mittelos and them too, where they wanted John to enroll), then came the DI, then they got Ben to help take it back..

Weird how creepily he operates thoug
100%
I think Abbadon is with a 3rd group as well... I also think Alpert and co had the island before DI (Mittelos and them too, where they wanted John to enroll), then came the DI, then they got Ben to help take it back..

Weird how creepily he operates though

This is going to get very interesting...

The characters of Alpert and Abaddon remind me of something that Locke told Walt in season 1. In the scene where he teaches him Backgammon he mentions two sides, one light and one dark, notice he doesn't say good or bad. There is no judgement of right or wrong, sort of like the concept of Yin and Yang. There can't be one without the other, and there is a little of each one in the other.

My question is: When Locke said that to Walt, did he recall these weird encounters with these two throughout his life, and did he think then that they somehow influenced his life to bring him here? Are these two men responsible for his "Destiny" that he keeps mentioning in Season 1?

Also, does he remember Alpert from his younger life when he talks to him at the Other's camp at the end of season 3?

I think Richard and Abbadon have the same motive for getting Locke to the island: they both want the one man who can see into the eye of the island and talk to it. The miracle man. But after that, it's anyone's guess as to why both men want to use Locke.

But I feel like just like the Messiah, Locke won't understand his fate, his calling...until he dies and is raised from the dead. Then, both the man of science and the man of faith will come together and save the day. Could Locke be the man in the coffin? Who knows.....
100%
And by the way, I see so many Messiah connections to John...such as in TMFT, after Locke blows up the submarine, we see his hands bound and tied up to the ceiling, he is leaning his head down on his arms and it is so much like the scene before the crucifixion. Also, in season two, after Desmond comes back to shore from sailing on the Elizabeth, Charlie goes to tell Locke about his arrival. We see a Garden of Gesthame scene, where locke is crying against a tree trunk and sort of praying. why would there be so much emphasis on Locke being the chosen one, if he wasn't?? Why have Cabin Fever center around that, if he wasn't?

I think Richard and Abbadon have the same motive for getting Locke to the island: they both want the one man who can see into the eye of the island and talk to it. The miracle man. But after that, it's anyone's guess as to why both men want to use Locke.

But I feel like just like the Messiah, Locke won't understand his fate, his calling...until he dies and is raised from the dead. Then, both the man of science and the man of faith will come together and save the day. Could Locke be the man in the coffin? Who knows.....
100%
And by the way, I see so many Messiah connections to John...such as in TMFT, after Locke blows up the submarine, we see his hands bound and tied up to the ceiling, he is leaning his head down on his arms and it is so much like the scene before the crucifixion. Also, in season two, after Desmond comes back to shore from sailing on the Elizabeth, Charlie goes to tell Locke about his arrival. We see a Garden of Gesthame scene, where locke is crying against a tree trunk and sort of praying. why would there be so much emphasis on Locke being the chosen one, if he wasn't?? Why have Cabin Fever center around that, if he wasn't?

i like what you said above. if you look back over the series of lost, one of the things that stands out to me is the journey that locke's been on, and the battle with his faith (in the hatch, the computer, in jacob). abbadon says he needs to go on a walkabout to find out who he really is, and i think the island is locke's walkabout,and he will eventually find out who he really is. whether that is who richard and ben want him to be, who knows?

I'm thinking from this that the island has its own agenda that is basically amoral. The island clearly chose Locke from birth--his surviving his premature birth and then surviving the fall from Cooper's apartment window. It sent him visions of Smokey.

But there are two forces who want to control what the island can do, and they are a lot bigger than Ben and Widmore; they are probably Heaven and Hell. It will only be when Locke makes a definitive choice (which seems to be to embrace his loser/nerd destiny rather than want to be the hunter and sports star) that the island can become a heaven and not a hell, which Ben was sure unable to pull off.

Cardie

Do you mean that the island is presently Hell under Ben's leadership?

So, wait...if John embraces his loser/nerd destiny he will create a heaven which Ben failed to do? Or did Ben fail to create Hell? I'm a bit unclear here...
I agree there is a Heaven/Hell clashing going on... and I get the sense too that just like the stuff that was said about Aaron... could be said about the island.... if someone good is in control, it will be a good island (heaven) and the reverse...
100%
Aaron is the key to the future.

if you look back over the series of lost, one of the things that stands out to me is the journey that locke's been on, and the battle with his faith (in the hatch, the computer, in jacob). abbadon says he needs to go on a walkabout to find out who he really is, and i think the island is locke's walkabout,and he will eventually find out who he really is. whether that is who richard and ben want him to be, who knows?

Locke seems like a typical "adoptee" trying to figure out where he came from, where he is headed, and most of all, who he is. He's been TOLD who he is pretty bluntly by his science teacher... the whole "you may not want to be the geek in the lab surrounded by test tubes, but you are that guy" and Richard apparently trying to will Locke to pick certain items that will indicate that he is who Richard wants him to be. Johnny seems pretty sure that knife is his, and I believe it is. I think Richard wanted it NOT to be, and so told the child he'd chosen wrong.

This may have been intended to deter John from acquiring such a knife later in life (he's been TOLD he is not meant to have such a knife), but John's faith... that he IS meant to own the knife, that he IS NOT the "science guy" and when he declares to Abbadon that he is a cripple, Abbadon's reply, "Is that what you are?" seems intended to get Locke's attention before he tells Locke that he went on a Walkabout that changed his life, and insists that Locke do likewise.

Through the island, John Locke is learning that his FAITH in who he was has always been justified. He's become what he always wanted to be, a hunter, a warrior, a leader.

Despite the strenuous denials of tptb, the island is currently, I think, Purgatory, where souls with uncertain afterlife destinations linger. But I think they could be released from their limbo and have the island turn into a heaven, but that's only if the island is not constantly threatened by people who want it for its material, earthly properties. And if the island should be fully taken over by those forces or destroyed by them, then all the souls in limbo go straight to hell.

Cardie

Locke seems like a typical "adoptee" trying to figure out where he came from, where he is headed, and most of all, who he is.

I don't think that's the action of a typical adopted child, as I was adopted and never went through this phase. I never sought out my biological parents and never had the desire too. People who are adopted basically from birth don't really have this "lost" feeling because they're only ever known one life with their adopted family. It was for me anyway and I was always part of the family, never treated any differently, and I had a sister who was also adopted and a sister who was a biological daughter of my parents.

Locke wasn't an adoptee, according to him he was a foster child and they have a much different life, typically shunted from family to family and once they turn 18, I believe they aren't part of the Foster system anymore and are cut loose. That seems to be the life Locke led. He never had a stable home, a stable family, no one who called him "son", no one to call mommy or daddy, and in essence no one to love him. He probably never heard "I love you" while he was a child.That's why he looked for his family I believe so he could see if his "true" parents would give him what he desired and never received while he was a child, and that was to be loved. Cooper obviously knew this and took advantage of it.

I think abbadon and alpert aren't working with ben and widmore as much as they happen to be aligned with them, respectively. Abbadon and Alpert have agenda's that involve john locke and the island. Ben and Widmore have a fight over the island between them, for as yet to be revealed reason's.

Ben and Alpert work together the same way Abbadon works for Widmore. They're aligned, but from different groups all the same. IMO. Ben knows Locke is important. Alpert and Abbadon too. Until Widmore is shown in connection with Locke or knowledge of him and his importance, I would have to say there's atleast three distinct parties interested in the island.

Or what the island is suppose mean/do, whatever has to be played out there.

And Abbadon was shown with Naomi, talking about faraday, miles, charlotte and lapidus. While it's not unreasonable to assume that he also hired Keamy and the mercs, I'm leaning against it. I think they're widmore's personal hire. Keamy did mention widmore in CF when he strong-armed the secondary protocol.

The point: as malevelont as Matthew Abbadon has come across thus far, is he really the bad guy? Cowboy had a nice post about backgammon, Locke and Walt in season one. Something to think about anyway...

I really think Abaddon has his own agenda, or works for someone other than Widmore. Abaddon will align himself with anyone whenever it will aid in acheiving his goals, which at this point I'm not sure what that is, other than getting Locke to the Island.

My guess is that Abaddon is indeed working for Widmore. Widmore set up Flight 815 to be sucked into the island. And Locke was the bait.

Something about Locke was special. Maybe it was the fact that he was born in a way that would have been survivable on the island (3 months premature). Maybe he is the reincarnated soul of someone who died on the island in the last 1950's.

Either way, Locke is special (or potentially special). It took Alpert a few weeks to figure out Locke was special and he kept an eye on him for a few years, before his "test" confirmed to him that Locke wasn't ready to take up the mantle of his specialness. (And Locke rejected them again with the offer of science camp).

Locke's specialness doesn't come to Widmore's attention until he survives the fall. Then Widmore looks into Locke and sees whatever it is that Jacob likes about him. So he sends Abaddon to lure Locke into making a trans-Pacific flight. Why? Because they know that if they can get Locke close enough to the island, the island will drag him to it, and then Widmore can use whatever devices they planted on the plane to find the island in its current location.

That part of the plan worked. Locke got on the plane. The Island sucked him in. Heck, to some extent, it worked better than they hoped. When the island realized Locke was coming, it abandoned Ben (letting him get a tumor). So now Widmore gets to fight the Others with their leader having a proverbial arm tied behind his back. Problem for Widmore is, Ben is more than up to the challenge of fighting Widmore even without being connected to Jacob.

I don't think Abaddon is some rogue agent playing both sides. I think he works for Widmore, plain and simple. I don't think he's Walt. I don't think he's Henry Gale. I don't think he's the ghost-boy to whom Miles spoke.

I'm thinking from this that the island has its own agenda that is basically amoral. The island clearly chose Locke from birth--his surviving his premature birth and then surviving the fall from Cooper's apartment window. It sent him visions of Smokey.

But there are two forces who want to control what the island can do, and they are a lot bigger than Ben and Widmore; they are probably Heaven and Hell. It will only be when Locke makes a definitive choice (which seems to be to embrace his loser/nerd destiny rather than want to be the hunter and sports star) that the island can become a heaven and not a hell, which Ben was sure unable to pull off.

Cardie

i like this

Locke's specialness doesn't come to Widmore's attention until he survives the fall. Then Widmore looks into Locke and sees whatever it is that Jacob likes about him. So he sends Abaddon to lure Locke into making a trans-Pacific flight. Why? Because they know that if they can get Locke close enough to the island, the island will drag him to it, and then Widmore can use whatever devices they planted on the plane to find the island in its current location.

That part of the plan worked. Locke got on the plane. The Island sucked him in. Heck, to some extent, it worked better than they hoped. When the island realized Locke was coming, it abandoned Ben (letting him get a tumor). So now Widmore gets to fight the Others with their leader having a proverbial arm tied behind his back. Problem for Widmore is, Ben is more than up to the challenge of fighting Widmore even without being connected to Jacob.
I like this line of thinking, especially because it helps explain why flight 815 was so far off course in the first place. Yes, Desmond crashed it when he didn't push the button, but why was the plane even there in the first place? I'd buy it being because of Locke. Although Widmore can't/couldn't find the island, he might have been able to get it in the correct vicinity. (So random, but wouldn't it be great to see Kelvin pop up in a flashback again, say as part of this conspiracy?)

And I agree that Abbadon is himself, and no other character caught in a time warp.

Although Widmore can't/couldn't find the island, he might have been able to get it in the correct vicinity
I suspect that Widmore used this scenario to exile Desmond to the island as well (and out of Penny's life). It may be that Widmore even used his own tenuous connection to the island to push events in that direction.

So is Abbadon bad? Is Locke bad? Was choosing the knife Locke accepting his destiny as the bad guy?

Sorry guys, first post.

I would think that anyone who was trying to save the Island would be on the 'good' side.

I thought this was interesting and I'm sure that it was brought up in many other threads.
Abaddon
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abaddon
If there is a good vs evil conflict, or a black and white theme. It would explain Abaddon interest in Locke, and what he would owe him... a soul perhaps....

I don't think concepts like "good" or "bad" are ultimately helpful in this story. Ben isn't trying to "save the island". Widmore's made it clear he isn't going to destroy the island, though he might kill everyone on it in his quest to control it. But then again, Ben is now leading a group that deliberately killed everyone in the Dharma Initiative (whether or not it was Ben's idea).

Ben is simply trying to preserve whatever status he has left on the island in the wake of Locke's selection (and possibly Hurley as a backup) and seeking revenge against Widmore for killing Alex.

Is Keamy any more sinister or cold-blooded than Mikhail was? I don't think so. Was Ethan's murder of Steve/Scott worse than Keamy's murder of the doctor? Does the Hostile's mass murder of Dharma justify Widmore's mass murder of the Others?

I think trying to designate "good guys" and "bad guys" in this show is counterproductive. Just enjoy the ride! :)

Is Locke bad? Was choosing the knife Locke accepting his destiny as the bad guy?
No.
:biggrin:
100%
I think trying to designate "good guys" and "bad guys" in this show is counterproductive. Just enjoy the ride! :)

In a sense, that's absolutely right, as it would be in any good story. There is good and bad in everyone, and to different degrees. But in another sense, there IS good, and there IS bad. "There are two sides, one light and one dark." You're not going to sort all the characters into good guys and bad guys, but I think there is a force of good and a force of evil at work, which is the real story. And that good and evil may very well have direct personifications. And with a name like Abbadon, I think he's a good candidate for one, and I think Jacob is a good candidate for the other.

Despite the strenuous denials of tptb, the island is currently, I think, Purgatory, where souls with uncertain afterlife destinations linger. But I think they could be released from their limbo and have the island turn into a heaven, but that's only if the island is not constantly threatened by people who want it for its material, earthly properties. And if the island should be fully taken over by those forces or destroyed by them, then all the souls in limbo go straight to hell.

I think it's Purgatory-ish...a combination of a literal Christian (Catholic) view of Purgatory, Heaven and Hell, and a Buddhist (and other non-Christian) representation of spiritual evolution and enlightenment, and reincarnation.

I wonder if that's what Jacob meant by moving The Island--to move it from Purgatory to Heaven or Hell?

These types of discussions can get confusing because some think these concepts to be purely metaphorical (on LOST), while others prefer to see a literal presentation.

I think it's metaphorical but hewing so closely to the concepts that it might as well be literal.

Cardie

Abbadon's last name, while sinister in almost any definition you come across, directly contradicts his first name; Matthew.

Matthew: hebrew: Gift of God/Gift of the Lord

Abbadon's last name, while sinister in almost any definition you come across, directly contradicts his first name; Matthew.

Matthew: hebrew: Gift of God/Gift of the Lord

That's an interesting point. Could this suggest that Abbadon is on neither side (Ben vs. Widmore), or is this just s coincidence?

But there are two forces who want to control what the island can do, and they are a lot bigger than Ben and Widmore; they are probably Heaven and Hell. It will only be when Locke makes a definitive choice (which seems to be to embrace his loser/nerd destiny rather than want to be the hunter and sports star) that the island can become a heaven and not a hell, which Ben was sure unable to pull off.
I agree that it's a struggle between heaven and hell. That's an excellent way of putting it.

But Locke wasn't meant to be a scientist. He is becoming and has become what he was always meant to be. He's a scholar/adventurer/philosopher/hunter. He's a Henry David Thoreau / Teddy Roosevelt.

Also, there are a huge number of parallels, which I listed in a previous post, between him and John the Baptist. The one to "prepare the way", to "make straight in the wilderness." It gave me chills when Emily called out, like John the Baptist's father, "His name is John!"

Abbadon's name implies he is the agent of hell -- he is death and destruction, the king of the locusts, Revelation. Is Jacob the agent of heaven? It would seem that way. Is he the original Jacob, who is still serving as the link between mankind and God? Is Abbadon looking to supplant him? Is Abbadon going to tempt John in the wilderness the way that the devil tempted Jesus? I think something along those lines would be epic.

I like Abbadon being on neither side of the Ben/Widmore conflict. On his own side or a side as yet to be revealed

I think that Locke survived the fall from the building because the ISLAND wouldn't let him die. Abbadon realized this and went to see John to push him in the right direction. All he needed was a small push to give John something to believe in. Imagine having someone come visit you like that at your lowest point, then realize a few days later that no one has even heard of him. I think when John sees Abbadon he will immediately recognize him, because it is because of this man that John even began his journey.

I think it is clear that Richard knew about John from birth just by word of mouth that a baby could survive being born so premature (6 months). I'm sure back in those days premie's didn't have near the success rate they have now, so he indeed was a miracle baby.

I like some of the posts ive read so far that Richard didn't like that John chose the knife because he wanted him to be a man of science. It's definitely interesting to me that they push the science/faith thing alot, and that they were trying to push him down the science path, when clearly now he is a man of faith. It's also interesting that it seems like Abbadon is the one who restored his faith. So how can we look at him as the bad guy? Ahh but its for a purpose. I think Abbadon wanted him to get on that island to be the ultimate sabotage. Richard has been waiting for him for a long time(he thinks), and they think its to help save everyone but I feel like John is the ultimate BAD guy WEAPON. Ben fully trusts John because he too thinks that John is the savior they have been waiting for. They dont know that Abbadon is the one that pushed him to the island. He has broken every station so far on this island, including the submarine, he has been the destructor. And if Ben buys into all this as well, it could be the ultimate way for Widmore to get back at Ben, and blindside him really, and also regain control.

Maybe Abbadon IS one of the good guys and he inserted Naomi,Daniel and Charlotte into the team to deactivate the poison gas plant and prevent Keamy from using it.

Maybe the first protocal was to poison everyone on the island,