The cover page on the red protocol folder that Keamy was holding had a Dharma Logo cover sheet, and since Mr. Widmore is such a smart man according to Keamy, apparently he was able to get his hands on some Dharma protocol documentation during his researching how to find the island...(<>..<>)

Yea I noticed that. What I thought when i saw it was that it hinted to the fact that Widmore was and is a major play in th DI. All the info he has on the island and the fact that he told Ben the island was his, is making me think that he was one of the original bakers of the DI and that he has been on the island.

Did anyone else catch that the symbol on the front of the second protocol Keamy took out was the same symbol that was on Bens dharka when he appeared in the desert? interesting huh. i'll def need to rewatch that scene
100%
anyone?

It looked like the symbol for the Orchid Station to me.

I agree that Widmore is a big wig in the DI. I do wonder however about Alpert and Mittelos... and how perhaps maybe THEY had the island first, then DI took it, then Ben took it back..

Either way.. i think Keamy's protocol has to do with finding the temple where the Others went to. Hmm. Gonna be a murderrific finale I suppose..

so.. um... here here! *toasts with a great uneasiness for the fates of our beloved Losties*

OMG When I saw that Dharma Logo on Keamy't protocol, and Keamy said Widmore was a very smart man..... WOW

So now we know Widmore is most deffinately associated with Dharma Initiative

Yeah I too wonder what the second protocol is, considering that the first protocol was already kill everyone on the island. What's the second one -- kill everyone on the island AND spit on their graves?

It was definitely Darma.

All I saw was the outside of a Dharma symbol. I couldn't see what it was specifically. I am not sure they even showed any specific logo.

Here it is, and yes, it's the Orchid Logo:
Dharma Symbol (http://bp3.blogger.com/_Hxnvg45zlCw/SCPGocfd8cI/AAAAAAAABFQ/yqAW_5bz1zY/s1600-h/secondary+protocol.jpg)

and guess what else?

That's how they are gonna 'move' the island. Widmore knew it and that's why Keamy had that Dharma Manual with him. They will try to get to the Orchid before Ben and Locke.
Widmore knew that if Ben resorted to use the Orchid, Widmore wouldn't be able to find the island again.

I wonder why Ben didn't think about it before?

All I can think of is that he didnt know about this station or where it was.
It migjht have been a secret station!!!!

You raise a very good question Fierro. Why wouldn't Ben have thought of it on his own. I'm getting ready to go watch again, but do you recall if Ben seemed at all surprised when Locke said they were going to move the island? His reaction may be a good indicator of how in the know he actually was/is. It seems that if he knew that was a possiblity, he'd have done that as soon as he knew the freighter was in the vacinity.

and guess what else?

That's how they are gonna 'move' the island. Widmore knew it and that's why Keamy had that Dharma Manual with him. They will try to get to the Orchid before Ben and Locke.
Widmore knew that if Ben resorted to use the Orchid, Widmore wouldn't be able to find the island again.

I wonder why Ben didn't think about it before?

All I can think of is that he didnt know about this station or where it was.
It migjht have been a secret station!!!!

Then Locke/Ben must use the Orchid to move the station because in the flash forward Widmore is going to be searching for the island. And is it possible that Widmore is originally linked with Dharma, and the symbol is on the folder for that reason?

i dont think its the orchid that moves it, otherwise ben would have already.

A few lines of thought:

* Ben didn't know about The Orchid, whose presence and purpose is a revelation provided by CS to Locke to share with the rest.

* Ben knows about The Orchid, but didn't know where it is, until know.

* Ben knows about The Orchid, knows where it is, but would only use it as a last resort.

Whatever the case, Ben appears to be utilizing it, as he landed in Tunisia wearing Halliwax's parka and informed Widmore that he wouldn't be able to find the Island. Now we know why!

and guess what else?

That's how they are gonna 'move' the island. Widmore knew it and that's why Keamy had that Dharma Manual with him. They will try to get to the Orchid before Ben and Locke.
Widmore knew that if Ben resorted to use the Orchid, Widmore wouldn't be able to find the island again.
Cool! Do you have a theory on how? (not technically but more like location, time etc) The Orchid video didn't make it seem that the station was capable of such feats.
So far I've looked at the Orchid as a teleporter. Is that how you see it as well?

Hmm, I always figured that the temple was the Orchid. I wonder if they'll ever go back to the temple, because I remember on one of Ben's map there was an Dharma symbol right next to it.

Cool! Do you have a theory on how? (not technically but more like location, time etc) The Orchid video didn't make it seem that the station was capable of such feats.
So far I've looked at the Orchid as a teleporter. Is that how you see it as well?

My guess is The Orchid and what powers it is going to be more grandiose that the just a mechanism to send a few small mammals through the cosmos. Isn't there supposed to be three levels? I bet it's huge!

Gault: What is that?
Keamy: It's a secondary protocol.
[Keamy flips through the pages, the Orchid logo seems to be on one of the pages]
Gault: What does it say?
Keamy: It says where Linus is going.
Gault: How would Mr. Widmore know that?
Keamy: He's a very smart man. And if Linus knows we're gonna torch the island, there's only one place he can go.

I believe (as others seem to) that The Orchid is the place on the island from which Ben "teleports" when he wakes up in Tunisia. If the entire island will be engulfed in flames, what better place to go than there?

Good point that they're headed for the Orchid.
However, I don't expect to see the entire island engulfed in flames. Locke will try to move it to a different time/space point... probably via the Orchid.
Locke's not been successful at much in the past, but I think he might pull this off - mainly because we know future Jack (TTLG) is having a heck of a time finding it!

I'm thinking the Orchid probably has explosives, like Mikhial's station had, possibly set up all over the island...

Either the Orchid or the Temple, or perhaps they're one and the same. My guess was the Temple because Keamy seems hell bent on killing everyone on the island. So he could be headed to where he thinks they're going.

Yeah, I thought it was the map to the Temple that Ben mentioned in TTLG.

My guess was the Temple because Keamy seems hell bent on killing everyone on the island.
It appears so, but why???
And why would he want to know WHO they are, if he's going to kill them all anyway? I'm sooo confused.

Yeah, I thought it was the map to the Temple that Ben mentioned in TTLG.


It has to be, I think, because he mentioned something about only one place to hide on the island.

I thought he wanted to know where they were. If he knows this then he'll know where to go to kill them all.

It appears so, but why???
And why would he want to know WHO they are, if he's going to kill them all anyway? I'm sooo confused.
Here's my thinking, anybody that could shoot a bound sixteen year old girl in the head isn't exactly a textbook example of mental health. And if you know anything about recent events in Uganda he has committed some horrific atrocities. Plus the captain(whom I'm sorry to see go) might be right Keamy could be experiencing the phenomenon of the rest of the crew and that could be diluding his judgement. Keamy and his men took a severe loss from Ben and smokey, and judging from his reaction he isn't someone used to being beaten in battle so he is pissed off. He wants to kill everyone on the island. He wants to know who they are in order to know what he is up against in order to make tactical decisions.

I thought he wanted to know where they were. If he knows this then he'll know where to go to kill them all.
"Where" makes sense. "Who" doesn't. I thought he said both, I need to re-watch the scene.

You raise a very good question Fierro. Why wouldn't Ben have thought of it on his own. I'm getting ready to go watch again, but do you recall if Ben seemed at all surprised when Locke said they were going to move the island? His reaction may be a good indicator of how in the know he actually was/is. It seems that if he knew that was a possiblity, he'd have done that as soon as he knew the freighter was in the vacinity.

I don't think he reacted. Maybe Ben has never had to move the island. He was in to jamming signals. But it says that Widmore is Dharma.

A few lines of thought:

* Ben didn't know about The Orchid, whose presence and purpose is a revelation provided by CS to Locke to share with the rest.

* Ben knows about The Orchid, but didn't know where it is, until know.

* Ben knows about The Orchid, knows where it is, but would only use it as a last resort.

Whatever the case, Ben appears to be utilizing it, as he landed in Tunisia wearing Halliwax's parka and informed Widmore that he wouldn't be able to find the Island. Now we know why!

Doesn't Ben ask about the rabbit when Locke cooked it earlier this season? a clear sign 1 & 2 are out.

I think Locke ends up using the orchid and even Ben looses the island.

A few lines of thought:

* Ben didn't know about The Orchid, whose presence and purpose is a revelation provided by CS to Locke to share with the rest.

* Ben knows about The Orchid, but didn't know where it is, until know.

* Ben knows about The Orchid, knows where it is, but would only use it as a last resort.

Whatever the case, Ben appears to be utilizing it, as he landed in Tunisia wearing Halliwax's parka and informed Widmore that he wouldn't be able to find the Island. Now we know why!

I would add one more, that's sort of a variation of the last:

* Ben knows about the Orchid, knows where it is, but would only use it if ordered to (Island/Jacob)

This would make sense as in why the "portal" or whatever it is was first in the freezing cold aka Ben's Parka where he was prepared to land.....to the new place Tnusia? However Ben seemed to know his way around there and was prepared. So if you move the island maybe there are only a few places it can go?

I'm thinking the Orchid probably has explosives, like Mikhial's station had, possibly set up all over the island...

I'll interpret 'torch the island' as probably a little more than just planting some explosives. Maybe Keamy now knows a Dharma way to self destruct the whole thing at once. Maybe all you need are two bunny #15's, or maybe even a larger being Kasimired, and then have them do a high-five and you get whatever effect Dr. Halliwax feared would happen if the 2 bunnies touched. Which is probably some kind of big boom. But, would Widmore go as far as to destroy the whole rock outright, are does "torch" mean clear it of every living thing and leave the rock itself intact? Not sure...(<>..<>)

Wasn't the volcano supposed to be important at one time??? That'd be a way to torch the island....???

I'll interpret 'torch the island' as probably a little more than just planting some explosives. Maybe Keamy now knows a Dharma way to self destruct the whole thing at once. Maybe all you need are two bunny #15's, or maybe even a larger being Kasimired, and then have them do a high-five and you get whatever effect Dr. Halliwax feared would happen if the 2 bunnies touched. Which is probably some kind of big boom. But, would Widmore go as far as to destroy the whole rock outright, are does "torch" mean clear it of every living thing and leave the rock itself intact? Not sure...(<>..<>)

Well... two casimired (nice word, btw) entities could destroy the island... but it would take the rest of the universe with it. Which isn't good.

When I saw the DI logo... it confirmed what I've thought for a while now.

My theory can be summed up like this.

Hanso Foundation = Dharma Initiative = Widmore Corp.

I'm undecided on Mittelos... it might be a group that broke off from Dharma, or it might be simply a front. Seeing as Richard has identified himself as working for Mittelos more than once, and he seems to work for Ben... Mittelos might just be a cover story that allows Richard (and the rest of the Others) to operate freely off-Island.

I'm pretty sure Paik Heavy Industries (Sun's dad's company) comes into it somewhere too. It might be that Mr. Paik is something big in Dharma. (But not as big as Widmore, who seems to be the Boss).

I honestly cannot believe that no one is discussing the fact that Keamy knew where Ben was going to go in the future, and that Ben knew that Keamy was going to torch the Island in the future... I even made a thread on this, with no replies so far, and I honestly believe this is one of the most important details in this episode, more important that the CS ghost embodiment, or whatever else..

the protocol had the orchid logo on it, and the way i see it, the second protocol is how to move the island. widmore obviously knows everything about dharma, so it'll tell keamy how ben and locke are going to move the island through the orchid station.

I honestly cannot believe that no one is discussing the fact that Keamy knew where Ben was going to go in the future, and that Ben knew that Keamy was going to torch the Island in the future... I even made a thread on this, with no replies so far, and I honestly believe this is one of the most important details in this episode, more important that the CS ghost embodiment, or whatever else..

yeah that got me aswell, because this protocol was locked in a safe, I guess it hasn't been touched since they left, how can Widmore be so sure that what is in that protocol will be correct/know what Ben will be doing by the time they come to open it. Is Ben that predictable?

Widmore is Dharma

I honestly cannot believe that no one is discussing the fact that Keamy knew where Ben was going to go in the future, and that Ben knew that Keamy was going to torch the Island in the future... I even made a thread on this, with no replies so far, and I honestly believe this is one of the most important details in this episode, more important that the CS ghost embodiment, or whatever else.. While I certianly think Keamy's comments could imply that Widmore had some *knowledge of the future*, I think they could also just as easily just mean that Widmore has deduced Ben's only "worst case scenario" option based purely on existing knowledge, and the mention of ben knowing they were going to torch the island could just be Keamy's realisation that Ben knows their plan due to Michael's spying etc.

This is what I love about the show... simple things can so often have different meanings... so brilliant. :)

I agree that Widmore is a big wig in the DI. I do wonder however about Alpert and Mittelos... and how perhaps maybe THEY had the island first, then DI took it, then Ben took it back..

Either way.. i think Keamy's protocol has to do with finding the temple where the Others went to. Hmm. Gonna be a murderrific finale I suppose..

so.. um... here here! *toasts with a great uneasiness for the fates of our beloved Losties*


i think it will lead keamy and his goons to the orchid station. keamy said something about widmore knowing what ben's only option was or something like that.

Widmore is Dharma

Widmore is drama.

the protocol had the orchid logo on it, and the way i see it, the second protocol is how to move the island. widmore obviously knows everything about dharma, so it'll tell keamy how ben and locke are going to move the island through the orchid station.
BINGO!

http://img107.imageshack.us/img107/8987/lostorchidox6.jpg (http://img107.imageshack.us/my.php?image=lostorchidox6.jpg)
http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/9112/lostorchid2wi4.jpg

Orchid Logo: http://lost.cubit.net/assets_c/2008/04/s4ep9_newdharmalogo-thumb-470x499.jpg

The notebook he took out had a red cover. I might be wrong, but these pics look like they may have been Photoshopped.

It comes out in a red envelope, which he opens as he says "It's a secondary protocol" and can be seen lying on the desk in the first image.

I used photoshop to crop the second image, and juice up the contrast.

Gotcha.

So if this document is obviously a Dharma document, and it is Windmore's boat and Windmore's crew, then Dharma = Windmore. So the Dharma Iniative was Windmore's little project. That being said, who does Richard and Abbadon work for then and what significance do they play in this whole thing?

So many questions..........:confused:

Abbadon works for Widmore as he hired Naomi. Presumably every time we have seen him he has been working for Widmore. Widmore has ties to Hanso and thus ties to the Dharma Initiative.

Does anyone have a screencap of the pamphlet thing Keamy was reading? I'm quite sure it was the Orchid symbol.
100%
Okay yeah, he definitely is: Here's a screencap: http://img107.imageshack.us/my.php?image=lostorchidox6.jpg

That's the orchid logo, and it's the same one, I think, that was on Ben's parka after he "teleported" into the desert.

So the thing on his arm might be some kind of time travel device to help him? I mean, Ben could have one under his parka.
That would be interesting to know how much Keamy does know about the island.

I think that screenshot was a little bit photoshopped... But maybe someone who knows alot about photos could have made it sharpen up. So I cannot say it is NOT an Orchid Logo.

http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage-1403-152.html

Alpert tried to get teen John (who's a fan of Geronimo Jackson) into Mittelos (or Mittelwork? I forget which one exactly) but into their projects in Portland. Makes me think these guys had the island first, then the DI came and took over, driving them out as "hostiles," then of course Ben came and took it back for the hostiles.

Did the Others or Dharma build the hatches. I thought we were told Dharma built them. But now I am not so sure about anything.

we don't know for sure that Naomi was hired by CHARLES Widmore. We know that Naomi was hired by Abadon...who may be working to counter Charles people. Naomi's job description was to get scientists on and off the island. She had no communications with Keamy. Methinks that team scince is working independantly of team war.

Alpert tried to get teen John (who's a fan of Geronimo Jackson) into Mittelos (or Mittelwork? I forget which one exactly) but into their projects in Portland. Makes me think these guys had the island first, then the DI came and took over, driving them out as "hostiles," then of course Ben came and took it back for the hostiles.

A timeline would be useful, if someone obliged... :rolleyes:

We know when the DeGroots started their little project
we know (aproximately) when Alpert visited John first and then second time
we know when the purge occurred

So?

Did the Others or Dharma build the hatches. I thought we were told Dharma built them. But now I am not so sure about anything.

Yes, but the Others' project(s) might not involve hatches and such...

we don't know for sure that Naomi was hired by CHARLES Widmore. We know that Naomi was hired by Abadon...who may be working to counter Charles people. Naomi's job description was to get scientists on and off the island. She had no communications with Keamy. Methinks that team scince is working independantly of team war.

That makes sense. Especially because the scientists had no idea that Keamy was going to do anything more than guard Ben.

You guys should check out this thread, Widmore was a Chosen One (http://thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=95129).

Wasn't the volcano supposed to be important at one time??? That'd be a way to torch the island....???

It has always loomed in the background of the story, and I remember hearing of "seismic changes, literally" somewhere wayyyy back before the season, but then nothing ever happened with it, but I wouldn't rule it out one bit as it's role might be say, like the thing or character in a movie that you get introduced to early on, forget about and then at the end BAM!-it comes back around again in a huge way.

So I wouldn't rule it out as playing a role in the course of things that are happening, but does anybody think that there could be some link between Smokey and said volcano? Never really thought about that much...(<>..<>)

The photos linked have been "retouched", but I just watched it and IT IS the Orchid logo.
I just don't have a screen cap, but at 23:05 of the show, you can clearly see the cover sheet looks just like it.

Heres an untouched screen cap I just took...

http://i26.tinypic.com/23j6dc6.jpg

I hate to upset anybody, but that is an orchid logo.

Thank you Tommy.

While I certianly think Keamy's comments could imply that Widmore had some *knowledge of the future*, I think they could also just as easily just mean that Widmore has deduced Ben's only "worst case scenario" option based purely on existing knowledge, and the mention of ben knowing they were going to torch the island could just be Keamy's realisation that Ben knows their plan due to Michael's spying etc.

This is what I love about the show... simple things can so often have different meanings... so brilliant. :)

Could be, but it is (in a LOST sense) more far-fetched than a time-travel correlation, simply because, even if Widmore is Dharma and knows stuff about the Island, he apparently hasn't been there for a while, and it is fairly difficult to try and predict what Ben will do next... As well as that, Benjamin knew from minute one what Keamy's intentions were, and that is still a little symptomatic. "every single person on this Island will be killed" would be an overstatement in any circumstance... Unless he already saw that happen...

Ben and Widmore know each other very well, as shown in TSOTTC. So it's not surprising to me that Ben would know Widmore would go so far as to kill them all to get the island back. And it's not surprising that Widmore would guess Ben would try to use the Orchid to hide the island. After all, if Widmore is a founder of the DI, which seems very likely, he and his people would have had a hand in building the Orchid.

Now, based on Ben being off the island and telling Widmore he wouldn't be able to find the island, it seems like Ben and Locke have been successful. So what happens to Keamy? He is above the island in the chopper. Did the island's air get taken along during the move through time and space? Is Keamy still chasing Ben in the future? Will Ben have Sayid try to kill Keamy before Keamy kills Ben?

Yeah it's definitely The Orchid. I feel like we might see a confrontation between Keamy and co. and Locke and Ben (when the hell is Hurley getting back to the beach, by the way? He's kind of running out of time?). I feel like moving the island - whether it's through time or space - has to do with The Orchid, and presumably Ben already knows how to work it.

Keamy's not that powerful, he's just a soldier. I'm pretty sure Benjamin will split him in half in the finale for what he did.

Since the protocol book has the Orchid on it, one naturally assumes keamy is headed in that direction.

The XM satellite receiver under his arm? I think that's Smoke repellent. Just in case. I'm just sayin'.

LostEd, I also thought the radio on his arm is somehow going to protect him from smokie.

Abbadon works for Widmore as he hired Naomi. Presumably every time we have seen him he has been working for Widmore. Widmore has ties to Hanso and thus ties to the Dharma Initiative.


Do we really know that? Just suppose that Naomi was a 2d plant on the ship as a fail safe to Michael. After all why would Widmore need her if he had Keamy? It would also make more sense for the volume of info Ben had on the freighter folks. How the hell could inept michael gather all that intel?

I'm thinking the Orchid probably has explosives, like Mikhial's station had, possibly set up all over the island...

The Temple has got to be the 'safe place' mentioned since that's where all the Others went.
would 'torch' refer to the 'tempest station" and the doomsday device that Faraday dismantled (and Keamy does not know that yet.) If Fara knew about it, it follows that Keamy would also.

Are we ever going to see this Orchid station? i thought it was to be last night?

Now, is Keamy digging out his secondary protocol or is he digging out old archived Dharma protocol? Maybe he has that information from Widmore and assumes that Ben is going to follow it in emergencies - which his present situations qualifies as.

Think about this. What if Miles, Charlotte, Daniel, Frank and Naomi all thought, or had some type of proof that the plane crash was a fake? How Widmore knows about this, well I don't know. Frank did say Widmore was the only one who believed him, but that does not say he spoke to Widmore directly.

Widdy does not want them to spoil all his fun, so he puts them on the freighter knowing that Keamy would kill them all?? Or at least Widmore wanted the science team there with the "knowledge" to find the island so Keamy can do his thing.

the vile vortexes.....? haha (that is what theyre called right?) if you dont know what those are then type it in on google and feast your mind

wouldn't be going to the Tempest? he does not know it was shut down by faraday yet. he would know it is the 'doomsday station', if faraday did.
the orchid's logo was mentioned, isn't that a 'spoiler'?
100%
LostEd, I also thought the radio on his arm is somehow going to protect him from smokie.

no it's not, it's a self-destruct device that blows up the freighter keyed to his heart beat. why would he threaten the capt. with a smokie repellent?

"Don't shoot me or I'll scare away smokie!" doesn't make any sense does it?
"Don't shoot me or the whole ship blows up" does make sense.

The Temple has got to be the 'safe place' mentioned since that's where all the Others went.
would 'torch' refer to the 'tempest station" and the doomsday device that Faraday dismantled (and Keamy does not know that yet.) If Fara knew about it, it follows that Keamy would also.

Are we ever going to see this Orchid station? i thought it was to be last night?

Yup, Temple is safe.

As for the Orchid yes, we will, and how!!! Next episode, and the rest of the finale, they will start explaining time travel and teleportation there... Someone on the team LOST also said there were going to use the Orchid to move the Island

JPolarBear, Keamy did not say what it is on his arm. I think he just used it as a bluff to get the capt'n to loose his guard so Keamy could shot him.

Too funny "Don't shoot me or I'll scare away smokie"

Here it is, and yes, it's the Orchid Logo:
Dharma Symbol (http://bp3.blogger.com/_Hxnvg45zlCw/SCPGocfd8cI/AAAAAAAABFQ/yqAW_5bz1zY/s1600-h/secondary+protocol.jpg)

Nice, good job!

and guess what else?

That's how they are gonna 'move' the island. Widmore knew it and that's why Keamy had that Dharma Manual with him. They will try to get to the Orchid before Ben and Locke.
Widmore knew that if Ben resorted to use the Orchid, Widmore wouldn't be able to find the island again.

I wonder why Ben didn't think about it before?

All I can think of is that he didnt know about this station or where it was.
It migjht have been a secret station!!!!

I find it so hard to believe that Ben wouldn't know about a station. Maybe he knows about it but doesn't have the right "power" to use the Orchid properly?

Think about this. What if Miles, Charlotte, Daniel, Frank and Naomi all thought, or had some type of proof that the plane crash was a fake? How Widmore knows about this, well I don't know. Frank did say Widmore was the only one who believed him, but that does not say he spoke to Widmore directly.

Widdy does not want them to spoil all his fun, so he puts them on the freighter knowing that Keamy would kill them all?? Or at least Widmore wanted the science team there with the "knowledge" to find the island so Keamy can do his thing.

I brought this up back in confirmed dead... yeah i really think that they all have some belief that the crash was fake. Lapidus knew from the wedding ring thing, Charlotte well did not seem convinced, we just didnt see why yet (maybe the bear and other things helped), Daniel was crying but didnt know why when watching the crash, and Miles apparently has conversations and can hear/see dead people (he may have realized the crash was faked because he happened to hear the screams of the bodies they used for it)

All speculation but as i said in the previous one, it seems they were chosen for various reasons, but for the most part, because perhaps they just knew too much.

I think your statement "They just knew too much" is the best answer!!!!

Cool! Do you have a theory on how? (not technically but more like location, time etc) The Orchid video didn't make it seem that the station was capable of such feats.
So far I've looked at the Orchid as a teleporter. Is that how you see it as well?
Not really. But whatever it is, it will include quantum physics.
In other words, they might use an extra higher dimension to 'slide' the island to another point in our 3d world. Possibly the 5th one.

http://chronos.ws/teleportation.html

I wonder if we will see this????


Also, another question...

We know that Widmore seems to have had owned the island at some point in the past, therefore, he knew its location, right? So why did it take him so long to find it back? It seemed that, since he didn't know where it was, he used Penny's findings through those portuguese scientists to find the island's current geographical location.

So, someone had to have 'moved' the island AFTER Widmore lost control of it. But WHO?

If it was Ben, then he already knew about the Orchid. Then, why didn't he use it again??????
Is there something else stopping Ben from going to the Orchid?

Now, I wonder if shutting down the tempest was actually to prevent Ben from using it, but rather preventing Keamy from using it...

The 4 freighties seemed to be working at cross purpose with Widmore I think.
Wonder if Abadon is truly linked to Widmore or something else, maybe Abaddon's goal is also to "save the island".

I think your statement "They just knew too much" is the best answer!!!!

In which case; Recruiting them, putting them onto a boat and then sending them to the Island is a rather inefficient way of getting rid of them compared to just straight up killing them, wouldn't you say :rolleyes:

Now, I wonder if shutting down the tempest was actually to prevent Ben from using it, but rather preventing Keamy from using it...

The 4 freighties seemed to be working at cross purpose with Widmore I think.
Wonder if Abadon is truly linked to Widmore or something else, maybe Abaddon's goal is also to "save the island".

Thank you for bringing this up. Now that we know (or think we know) Captain and the scientists had no idea Keamy was sent to the island to kill everyong, Why did they shut down the tempest?? I think Charlotte and Daniel did honestly believe the were saving everyone from Ben, had no idea the Tempest would save everyone including Ben from Keamy.

I need someone to explain to me why Keamy/Widmore feel that they need to kill everyone on The Island. Could it be merely to support the fake-plane-in-the-trench hoax?

I have thought about that too TabbyRasa. I thought it was rather strange when Abaddon went to see Hurley at Santa Rosa and asked him if there were any survivors or if they were all dead... can't remember the line exactly. If we could just find out who is connected with who we would be able to see who exactly wants them all dead....

I need someone to explain to me why Keamy/Widmore feel that they need to kill everyone on The Island. Could it be merely to support the fake-plane-in-the-trench hoax?

Everything in this show is orchestrated to recreate events in the Losties lives. This time it is about Locke. Keamy is an anagram for My Khe which is a hamlet near My Lai where a massacre took place in the Vietnam war. Both Ben and Locke's mothers name is Emily which is an anagram for My Lai. Ben already had his recreation of a massacre in the purge and now it is Locke's turn. How it works out, we will see.

I have thought about that too TabbyRasa. I thought it was rather strange when Abaddon went to see Hurley at Santa Rosa and asked him if there were any survivors or if they were all dead... can't remember the line exactly. If we could just find out who is connected with who we would be able to see who exactly wants them all dead....
Abaddon asked Hurley "are they alive?".

He told Naomi "there are no survivors of 815".

So I think I have answered my own question...the reason that Keamy's mission is to kill everyone on The Island is to support the fake-plane-in-the-trench hoax.

But wait ;) ...if that's the reason, it would only be necessary to kill the Losties (the flight 815-ers), not everyone on The Island.

The reason must be that Widmore wants The Island for whatever his nefarious purpose is...and he doesn't want anyone to interfere with that...thus, they must all be killed.

Ugh...this show. ;)
Everything in this show is orchestrated to recreate events in the Losties lives. This time it is about Locke. Keamy is an anagram for My Khe which is a hamlet near My Lai where a massacre took place in the Vietnam war. Both Ben and Locke's mothers name is Emily which is an anagram for My Lai. Ben already had his recreation of a massacre in the purge and now it is Locke's turn. How it works out, we will see.
LS...as you know, I love your posts and theories.

Emily is a "sounds like" anagram for My Lai. The actual anagram is My Lie. ;)

Keamy is a "sounds like" anagram for My Khe. The actual anagram is My Kea.

I'm not criticizing...just trying to help with the group brainstorming mission. ;)

:hug: LS

Abaddon asked Hurley "are they alive?".

Emily is a "sounds like" anagram for My Lai. The actual anagram is My Lie. ;)

Keamy is a "sounds like" anagram for My Khe. The actual anagram is My Kea.

I'm not criticizing...just trying to help with the group brainstorming mission. ;)


Tabby, an anagram doesn't have to be exactly the same spelling. For example many people consider Nostradamus's Hister to be an anagram of Hitler. The names and the similarities in the events they depict is more than just a coincidence, I believe.

Tabby, an anagram doesn't have to be exactly the same spelling. For example many people consider Nostradamus's Hister to be an anagram of Hitler. The names and the similarities in the events they depict is more than just a coincidence, I believe.
LS...I didn't know that...I thought that anagrams had to be precise. Thus my former post about "sounds like" anagrams.

But you are alluding to an even more abstract level of anagrams.

Thank you for inspiring even more thought. ;)
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Oh, and that is exactly what TPTB have been "doing" with the character names on LOST. ;)

I found an interesting anagram for Martin Christopher Keamy

aah pyrotechnist krimmer

But I cannot find anything about anyone named Krimmer that would
make since..

Someone mentioned Keamy's background in Uganda...I am not even going to research that...

<shudders>

Kevin Durand should teach voice...he is a master at playing a character via voice (to say nothing of his physical presence and facial expressions).

LostEd, I also thought the radio on his arm is somehow going to protect him from smokie.

OK. if that's it's purpose then from here on out lets call it the sonic emitter--a high tech banshee howl to wolf Smokey back down...ot ir could be the detonaror for the freighter since it's evidence and the evidence is being destroyed. Maybe that's the whole problem here...apparently, youalleverybody knows too much, and everybody's gotta go, literally. Hence, I guess Keamy's protocol now is to try to capture the Orchid station and then "torch the island" to remove any other witnesses. That would make sense as it suggests that since they couldn't take the island per plan a, re: get control, kill anybody who gets in your way and grab Linus, we've now gone to plan b re: capture Orchid station and in the process kill 'em all and let God sort them out (or Smokey), or whoever's runnin' Hades there...

Maybe Keamy's protocol now hinges more on not leaving anybody around to tell the tale, and he had an exit strategy worked out for afterwards. I think the facilatators would have been happy if Naomi and Keamy were the only ones who did come back from something that has gone this far, because really, to me, they are the 2 most highly prized assets that the other side has, which is why they are in positions of authority. Naomi seems to be more spook and Keamy more soldier, but they're both highly trained, highly motivated operatives, not throw-away cut-outs. The formula states that they shouldn't be killed until they return,. The final witnesses, the "make sure there's not plastic spread out on the floor when you are reporting back to your boss scenario"...

But the Captain speculated that Keamy's losing it from whatever was affecting the crew, and since Keamy knows what happens with that, he could be going into his final kamikaze dive and taking the islanders and maybe the island with him. The Samson complex-pull it down on top of their heads...or maybe Keamy's not sick, he's pissed because they called their Pit-Bull down on his head, and now he's going back to finish this and some heads are gonna roll...

And one more thing-with talk of moving the island via the Orchid, maybe now my countless and probably tiring posts about how the island exists in another dimension (the 11th dimension, I figured), "through the looking glass" or on "the backside of the mirror" will not have you thinking anymore that UAC is wheezing on the Locke Jungle Paste waaaaay too much...(<>..<>)

P>S> Check out Keamy in Smokin' Aces...total psychopath...He and his brothers are like Deliverance meets the very heavily armed 3 Stooges...hilarious...and one of the actors that plays his brother in the movie, Chris Pine, is playing Kirk in J.J.'s Star Trek movie, so those boys are gettin some work via the J.J. train...

Kevin Durands performance is unbelievable good. I do love the actor as much as I hate the character; Keamy.

English is not my native language; what do you think: "Martin Christopher Keamy" = "their hypocrite marksman"?

Make that angram any sense?

yeah that got me aswell, because this protocol was locked in a safe, I guess it hasn't been touched since they left, how can Widmore be so sure that what is in that protocol will be correct/know what Ben will be doing by the time they come to open it. Is Ben that predictable?


It seemed pretty straight-forward. Keamy says, "If Linus knows that we're going to torch the island, there's only one place he can go." No foreknowledge is implied there. It sounds like what Ben was saying about the Temple, as being the last safe place on the island. Since the folder had the Orchid logo on it, maybe the Orchid=The Temple. So once they start torching the island, they know that's where he'll go, and they'll go there to find him. And when they get there, he'll escape by using whatever is there to teleport to Tunisia.

I found this over at lostpedia...

In Mayan Astrology, the sign CIMI, pronounced the same way as Martin's last name, means DEATH.

Kevin Durands performance is unbelievable good.
I'd just like to second that. Absolutely incredible.
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"Martin Christopher Keamy" = "their hypocrite marksman"?
Or maybe the island is going to give him cancer:
"Martin Risk Chemotherapy"
This one sounds pretty unpleasant as well:
"Karmic Misanthropy There"
This one is pretty good too, at least the "army misanthrope" part:
"Thicker Army Misanthrope"

I'm curious, why did Widmore (or whoever) make sure it took 2 different keys, held by 2 different people, to open the safe? Thats like nuclear bomb serious.

Keamy's not that powerful, he's just a soldier. I'm pretty sure Benjamin will split him in half in the finale for what he did.

Funny how introducing a character as sinister as Keamy suddenly makes Ben seem not so bad. Is it just me, or has his arc in the last couple of episodes cast him in a more sympathetic light? Could be there's a reason Keamy is so ruthlessly persuing his mission other than just following orders, which others here have mentioned. He's taken matters into his own hands rather violently. I'm not convinced it's the sickness though. People with the sickness don't seem to want to harm others, just themselves.

I'd just like to second that. Absolutely incredible.
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Or maybe the island is going to give him cancer:
"Martin Risk Chemotherapy"
This one sounds pretty unpleasant as well:
"Karmic Misanthropy There"
This one is pretty good too, at least the "army misanthrope" part:
"Thicker Army Misanthrope"

Martin keamy
karma time ny
karma tiny me
my nite karma

The Temple has got to be the 'safe place' mentioned since that's where all the Others went.
would 'torch' refer to the 'tempest station" and the doomsday device that Faraday dismantled (and Keamy does not know that yet.) If Fara knew about it, it follows that Keamy would also.

Are we ever going to see this Orchid station? i thought it was to be last night?

Widmore wants the island intact and habitable. It was his team as JPolarBear says that dismantled the one doomsday device on the island in the first place. That seems to show that he does not want to destroy everything on the island. He wants Ben, and we know even if he changes the rules, Widmore will not off Ben. I am questioning what Keamy means by "torch the island". He has enough firepower to do some serious damage, but he is still after Ben as his primary objective and he has not given any indication that he would go rogue against what Widmore wants, which is "his" island back. Doing too much damage would contradict that and Widmore knows the island's special qualities and wants that unchanged. Keamy is just a robo-mercenary thats willing do whatever. And since Frank (who flew Keamy back and forth) is still exhibiting no signs of Minkowsky fever I have to bet that Keamy is just plain mean.

I think it is a how to manual or report on the Orchid. Why else would the Orchid logo be on the cover. Widmore having access to DI information doesn't mean he ran the DI but is likely connected or was able to buy someone who was. Since the remote thing was strapped to him after Keamy read the second protocol they have to be related to operation of the Orchid. Is he going to use the Orchid against Ben or stop Ben from using it. Who knows. Maybe the Orchid is near the temple. Wormholes and places of power, makes sense.

Its interesting that Faraday's map had a lot of incomplete information. Just enough to get he and Charlotte to the poison gas station. It seems Widmore compartmentalizes information among all the team players so nobody has the complete picture. If he has the manual from the Orchid he could have filled in more blanks on that map. Only if he has to does Widmore reveal more, just like this show's writers.

It seemed pretty straight-forward. Keamy says, "If Linus knows that we're going to torch the island, there's only one place he can go." No foreknowledge is implied there. It sounds like what Ben was saying about the Temple, as being the last safe place on the island. Since the folder had the Orchid logo on it, maybe the Orchid=The Temple. So once they start torching the island, they know that's where he'll go, and they'll go there to find him. And when they get there, he'll escape by using whatever is there to teleport to Tunisia.
Unfortunately, they both have different logos. Ben is a very intelligent man, so I will assume that he anticipated Widmore to send his people to the Orchid. Is that why he sent everybody to The Temple, instead? If so, what is it and WHY is it the last safe place on the island? Apparently, Widmore does not know about it, also. Perhaps, it wasn't built during Dharma times....We have seen the others building their own stuff before...

Is there a connection between the Temple and The Orchid that we might not be seeing, yet?

As of yet, there is no link between the Temple and the Orchid. I would not be suprised if they are one and the same.

Tabby, an anagram doesn't have to be exactly the same spelling. Actually, an anagram does have to use the exact same letters. That's the whole point.

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When was the symbol confirmed to be The Orchid? Is that just speculation based on the parka?

Actually, an anagram does have to use the exact same letters. That's the whole point.
Agree, but I guess you could get cute with the phonetics of it...
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When was the symbol confirmed to be The Orchid? Is that just speculation based on the parka?


Agree on the anagramming, but still, I guess they could get cute with phonetics if they wanted to. The Orchid: I probably know this but can't think right now, but it's the Orchid...which of course was sacred to Apollo, and they name displays of Orchids after Apollo and Artemis in some pictures I found while researching Apollo and The Orchid...(<>..<>)

I would add one more, that's sort of a variation of the last:

* Ben knows about the Orchid, knows where it is, but would only use it if ordered to (Island/Jacob)

Exactly, great point! Benjamin certainly knows about the Orchid, since he knows Dharma, and Dharma didn't hide the location of the Orchid, merely its purpose!

As well as that, he didn't really had the time to go to the Orchid, did he??? He's probably heading there right now, but he needed to hear Jacob's/ Island's/ Nature's opinion first.
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Funny how introducing a character as sinister as Keamy suddenly makes Ben seem not so bad. Is it just me, or has his arc in the last couple of episodes cast him in a more sympathetic light? Could be there's a reason Keamy is so ruthlessly persuing his mission other than just following orders, which others here have mentioned. He's taken matters into his own hands rather violently. I'm not convinced it's the sickness though. People with the sickness don't seem to want to harm others, just themselves.

Oh, I didn't mean Keamy made Benjamin more sympathetic, I am absolutely positive Ben is the good guy, and the ultimate hero of the show, sacrificing everything and being hated just to protect the Island/ humanity... Thank god the show has finally started moving towards that directions, so that conservative puritans here don't attack me as much as they used to :biggrin:

How about the Orchid station is actually built next/close to an honest-to-gosh real ancient temple?

The toes THE TOES!!! THINK OF THE TOES.

I know what happens. Mulder and Scully find the island and it's really a spaceship that flies around in space. So the aliens in the Orchid station have to "fly" the "spaceship" to a new place in the time space continum. Then they create a time flux where Mulder and Scully make out, have terrific movie sex, and the fan boys yell, "HOORAH!"

LOL I've had coffee. No I think we are on to something here. This is the best theory yet on this episode. The Orchid Station that is.

The toes THE TOES!!! THINK OF THE TOES.

I know what happens. Mulder and Scully find the island and it's really a spaceship that flies around in space. So the aliens in the Orchid station have to "fly" the "spaceship" to a new place in the time space continum. Then they create a time flux where Mulder and Scully make out, have terrific movie sex, and the fan boys yell, "HOORAH!"

LOL I've had coffee. No I think we are on to something here. This is the best theory yet on this episode. The Orchid Station that is.
I wonder if the next top secret X-Files movie is gonna share something with LOST....:biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:

Actually, an anagram does have to use the exact same letters. That's the whole point.

I can not find the reference to it now but some time ago I read that single letter changes are permissible in anagrams. But regardless, we have had at least one name in Lost based on sound i.e. Miles Straume - maelstrom so that Keamy - My Khe with reversed words is not such a stretch nor is Emily - My Lai with the single letter change.

I honestly cannot believe that no one is discussing the fact that Keamy knew where Ben was going to go in the future, and that Ben knew that Keamy was going to torch the Island in the future... I even made a thread on this, with no replies so far, and I honestly believe this is one of the most important details in this episode, more important that the CS ghost embodiment, or whatever else..

While I certianly think Keamy's comments could imply that Widmore had some *knowledge of the future*, I think they could also just as easily just mean that Widmore has deduced Ben's only "worst case scenario" option based purely on existing knowledge, and the mention of ben knowing they were going to torch the island could just be Keamy's realisation that Ben knows their plan due to Michael's spying etc.

This is what I love about the show... simple things can so often have different meanings... so brilliant. :)

Can one of you remind me of exactly what was said in this conversation? I'm having trouble remembering... you're saying that Keamy knows where Ben is going and Ben knows Widmore's plan? I don't remember this point at all.

Yeah it's definitely The Orchid. I feel like we might see a confrontation between Keamy and co. and Locke and Ben (when the hell is Hurley getting back to the beach, by the way? He's kind of running out of time?). I feel like moving the island - whether it's through time or space - has to do with The Orchid, and presumably Ben already knows how to work it.

Yeah I am also wondering about how and when Hurley is going to get back. He's kind of a missing piece of the O6 at this point. Although we do have 3 more episodes....

Keamy's not that powerful, he's just a soldier. I'm pretty sure Benjamin will split him in half in the finale for what he did.

I sure hope so. And I agree.

Do we really know that? Just suppose that Naomi was a 2d plant on the ship as a fail safe to Michael. After all why would Widmore need her if he had Keamy? It would also make more sense for the volume of info Ben had on the freighter folks. How the hell could inept michael gather all that intel?

I think Naomi and Keamy had different roles, but were on the same side. She was the first one to go to the island, and to show an innocent face that could be trusted. Keamy was the one to go in later and "clean up."


If it was Ben, then he already knew about the Orchid. Then, why didn't he use it again??????
Is there something else stopping Ben from going to the Orchid?

I can't believe that Ben doesn't know about the Orchid, so maybe there is some protocol for that station to that two special people have to activate? Maybe Ben needs Locke.


The 4 freighties seemed to be working at cross purpose with Widmore I think.
Wonder if Abadon is truly linked to Widmore or something else, maybe Abaddon's goal is also to "save the island".

I think the freighties were there for very specific jobs, but when each of them find out more information about the mission of the freighter, they one-by-one start to back out and down. It's not that they were put on the boat to prevent the mission, but that they were not filled in on the entirety of the mission.

I have thought about that too TabbyRasa. I thought it was rather strange when Abaddon went to see Hurley at Santa Rosa and asked him if there were any survivors or if they were all dead... can't remember the line exactly. If we could just find out who is connected with who we would be able to see who exactly wants them all dead....

I don't understand why Widmore and/or Abaddon would want to torch the island. In order to torch the island to the degree that all inhabitants die, would that mean that the island has been rendered uninhabitable? The foliage and animals would all die too. Why would Widmore want to do that to the island? Would everything replenish quickly or something, because the island has special healing qualities?

If the island is being torched, can't the Losties survive in a Dharma bunker?

I would think that Ben has to know about the Orchid Station! At least according to what I think is going on, Ben and Richard and Tom , to name a few , have been using the Orchid Station to go to and from the island both in the past and future! To me, a perfect example of this was the episode from season 3 - The Man from Tallahassee!
Ben calls Richard into his bedroom when Locke is hiding in the closet and tells Richard to "get me the man from Tallahassee"! Which , to me , means the others did not have Cooper in their possession yet and Richard had to go off island to retrieve him!?

Also, another question...

We know that Widmore seems to have had owned the island at some point in the past, therefore, he knew its location, right? So why did it take him so long to find it back? It seemed that, since he didn't know where it was, he used Penny's findings through those portuguese scientists to find the island's current geographical location.

So, someone had to have 'moved' the island AFTER Widmore lost control of it. But WHO?

If it was Ben, then he already knew about the Orchid. Then, why didn't he use it again??????
Is there something else stopping Ben from going to the Orchid?

Finally, on post #80, I see the same thing I was wondering.......

I was thinking the same thing to Fierro, that since Widmore is Dharma (possibly related to a Hanso?) he must have lost control of the Island during the purge, so at one time he knew how to get there. After the Purge, Ben and "the Others" must have moved the Island so he couldn't find the Island again. So yeah, why did it take Locke going to see Jacob to determine they needed to "move" the Island? Unless of course it wasn't Ben who had moved the Island the first time but Ben is smart, so if he didn't know about "moving" the Island, he'd have to wonder why Dharma wasn't coming to the Island.

Also, if the Island was moved before, how did the Dharma drops know where to find the Island? This seems to suggest the Island wasn't moved before, but if that's the case how could Widmore not find it?

I'm definitely confused.....:cnfused1:

Can one of you remind me of exactly what was said in this conversation? I'm having trouble remembering... you're saying that Keamy knows where Ben is going and Ben knows Widmore's plan? I don't remember this point at all.

Hey, I was wondering where you were on this thread :biggrin:

Okay, so, what he said was:

Gault: "what is that?"
Keamy:" It's a secondary protocol."
Gault: "What does it say?"
Keamy: "It says where Linus is going."
Gault: "How would Mr. Widmore know about that?"
Keamy: "he's a very smart man. And if Linus knows we're gonna torch the Island, there is only one place he can go..."


I sure hope so and agree.

Seriously, good or no good, if someone killed my innocent daughter to achieve their vicious purpose, I would... I'm not even gonna say it, but people who think that someone else besides Ben should make the decision about ; fate are wrong :rolleyes:





I can't believe that Ben doesn't know about the Orchid, so maybe there is some protocol for that station to that two special people have to activate? Maybe Ben needs Locke.

I wouldn't say he needs Locke for the Orchid at all... Locke couldn't be familiar with the sophisticated technologies Dharma used )if he would be, that would be a nasty coincidence, and very sloppy writing thing, IMO), only Benjamin could... He needed Locke to send him to the cabin and see what CS or someone was gonna say... If you think that Ben really threw in the towel, please don't think so... I am sure he has everything under full control...:D He is currently in conflict with the Island, so he doesn't want to/cannot go into the cabin, but Locke has been the Island's favorite kid for the previous couple months, so he could do it... We'll see...



I don't understand why Widmore and/or Abaddon would want to torch the island. In order to torch the island to the degree that all inhabitants die, would that mean that the island has been rendered uninhabitable? The foliage and animals would all die too. Why would Widmore want to do that to the island? Would everything replenish quickly or something, because the island has special healing qualities?

I don't understand it either, but I think that Widmore merely wants to kill all the survivors and the Others and the Hostiles and the Four-toed people there... remember how Keamy asked Sayid where eXactly all the people were???

My best guess is he needed their whereabouts, so that he could just find them and kill them on spot... Now that he doesn't have them, he needs to "torch" the island just to make sure everybody there dies...

Also, if the Island was moved before, how did the Dharma drops know where to find the Island? This seems to suggest the Island wasn't moved before, but if that's the case how could Widmore not find it?

I'm definitely confused.....:cnfused1: Ooh, that a very good point about the Dharma Drops... that the drops kept coming definitely suggests that Dharma (or at least their supply companies!) knew where the island was during that time. I am trying to remember when the last drop was... did they stop after Locke blew up the Flame station... or after the Looking Glass was destroyed?

While it does make sense that the drops continued after The Purge - as The Others were posing as Dharma and maintaining operations of some of the stations etc, it certianly adds to the Big Question of exactly where Widmroe fits into all this... and could suggest that his interest and/or experience of the island is private/personal, rather than Dharma related. :undecide:

Further speculation on this is gonna take me even further off-topic, so I will leave it at that (and give my brain a rest).

I think Charlotte and Daniel did honestly believe the were saving everyone from Ben, had no idea the Tempest would save everyone including Ben from Keamy.

I don't think Keamy was going to use the Tempest. He's more of a conventional weapons type guy. (Well, conventional weapons + a metronome strapped to his arm.) When he says "torch the island", I don't think he's talking about destroying it with a bunny paradox -- I think he means napalm.

Ben would have gassed everyone on the island in a heartbeat if he had the chance. Don't let the depressed candy bar-sharing, reminiscing-about-dreaming, destiny-lamenting Ben fool you... a manic phase follows the depressed phase. I think C&D's mission was pretty straight-forward.
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I am absolutely positive Ben is the good guy, and the ultimate hero of the show, sacrificing everything and being hated just to protect the Island/ humanity...

Yeah, that sounds like Ben, sacrificing himself for the benefit of others:rolleyes:.

Thank god the show has finally started moving towards that directions, so that conservative puritans here don't attack me as much as they used to :biggrin:

Really, I hate those conservative puritans who give you a big guilt trip for a little genocide. It's like that Nuremberg which-hunt all over again. Get with the times people, genocide is modern and healthy! ;)
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Ooh, that a very good point about the Dharma Drops... that the drops kept coming definitely suggests that Dharma (or at least their supply companies!) knew where the island was during that time. I am trying to remember when the last drop was... did they stop after Locke blew up the Flame station... or after the Looking Glass was destroyed?
I think the only one we saw or heard about was way back in season two, in "Lockdown" where we first saw the Blast Door Map. I think one possibility is that they are still coming because they were rolled off the assembly line and into the time shifter, so there were a whole bunch in the "queue" ahead of time. But there's no one in the present actually sending them; they're from the past.
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Also, if the Island was moved before, how did the Dharma drops know where to find the Island? This seems to suggest the Island wasn't moved before, but if that's the case how could Widmore not find it?

Well, the above could be one solution to that. I'm assuming the physical island doesn't move, but it's spatial "interface" to the rest of the world changes. If the darma drops are being dropped from the past island to the present island, they would be unaffected by any changes in the spatial interface to the rest of the world.

Alpert tried to get teen John (who's a fan of Geronimo Jackson) into Mittelos (or Mittelwork? I forget which one exactly) but into their projects in Portland. Makes me think these guys had the island first, then the DI came and took over, driving them out as "hostiles," then of course Ben came and took it back for the hostiles.

Yeah, I'm very uncertain about the time frame. What does it mean that Richard is trying to recruit Locke as a child, before the DI arrived on the island? And again about the time the hatches were built, if I'm getting the Jeromino Jackson reference right? I'm really confused about what all this says about what the Hostiles were up to all that time.


So, someone had to have 'moved' the island AFTER Widmore lost control of it. But WHO?

If it was Ben, then he already knew about the Orchid. Then, why didn't he use it again??????
Is there something else stopping Ben from going to the Orchid?

I'm not convinced the island was moved before. Remember, it has properties that make it hard to find even if it is not "moved." I don't know if Ben knew about the Orchid or not. Seems he knows about most things on the island. Perhaps Ben hesitates to use the Orchid because he knows that there will be a steep price to pay for using it. OTOH, the situation does seem desperate enough to call for it, so I don't know...

I can not find the reference to it now but some time ago I read that single letter changes are permissible in anagrams. But regardless, we have had at least one name in Lost based on sound i.e. Miles Straume - maelstrom so that Keamy - My Khe with reversed words is not such a stretch nor is Emily - My Lai with the single letter change.

I think the whole point of an anagram is that the letters fit exactly.

Yeah, that sounds like Ben, sacrificing himself for the benefit of others:rolleyes:.



.

I really, really don't mean to be mean or to start up an argument, but you can't seriously think Ben is selfish? Like, that he is enjoying his life on that wretched rock, loving the fact that he's never known love or a normal social life, to put it that way... Even if he is the damn king of the Island, that still doesn't bring him happiness and/or peace at all... Whatever he does, he does for that Rock or maybe even the greater good we are yet to find out... Dharma was evil in the simplest sense of that word... Ben hated Dharma... That's not a clear implication that he is great, but, c'mon, cut him some slack... the character was designed to make you hate him at first, but the last four episodes were made pretty much to convince you that there is much more going on with him than you know, and while I do understand how some people have a hard time accepting him as a great guy because of the atrocious things he does to keep the Island/humanity safe, I really don't see how you can think of him as selfish...

Ben has failed. I'm not sure yet why or when he fell out favor, but clearly he has, and it happened before 815 crashed. So, if he was working for the good of all, the island or Jacob did not approve of his tactics or his lifestyle.

GGC I agree with the fact that Ben is not completely selfish, it is just hard to let go how he was portrayed origionally. As we find out more about him, we will understand why he has had to make some of the decisions that made him seem evil. Besides, the idea of someone being good or bad is sometimes just a matter of perspective..

Do we know for sure that it was Alpert that invited Locke to Mittleos, or is that what TPTB want us to think by showing Alpert in two previous flashbacks but not in this one? Could it be someone else, say Widmore, also want Locke?

I think Locke ends up using the orchid and even Ben looses the island.

I'm starting to think the same thing.

yeah that got me aswell, because this protocol was locked in a safe, I guess it hasn't been touched since they left, how can Widmore be so sure that what is in that protocol will be correct/know what Ben will be doing by the time they come to open it. Is Ben that predictable?

I don't think Ben is predictable. I think that his group follows certain rules, certain protocols and Widmore has some knowledge of what these "rules," laws, and "protocols" are.

Could be, but it is (in a LOST sense) more far-fetched than a time-travel correlation, simply because, even if Widmore is Dharma and knows stuff about the Island, he apparently hasn't been there for a while, and it is fairly difficult to try and predict what Ben will do next... As well as that, Benjamin knew from minute one what Keamy's intentions were, and that is still a little symptomatic. "every single person on this Island will be killed" would be an overstatement in any circumstance... Unless he already saw that happen...

Perhaps he did see it happen. It happened during the purge. All the Dharma people were killed back then. Perhaps Widmore realizes there are no more people loyal to Dharma there and has no problem killing everyone on the island because he believes they are all loyal to Ben's group.

Yeah it's definitely The Orchid. I feel like we might see a confrontation between Keamy and co. and Locke and Ben (when the hell is Hurley getting back to the beach, by the way? He's kind of running out of time?). I feel like moving the island - whether it's through time or space - has to do with The Orchid, and presumably Ben already knows how to work it.

Perhaps Ben does know how to work it to get individuals on and off the island, but maybe he has no idea how to use it to "move" the island.


Oh, I didn't mean Keamy made Benjamin more sympathetic, I am absolutely positive Ben is the good guy, and the ultimate hero of the show, sacrificing everything and being hated just to protect the Island/ humanity... Thank god the show has finally started moving towards that directions, so that conservative puritans here don't attack me as much as they used to :biggrin:

Ben is not just a murderer, he is also an insanely creepy individual. What part of that "you're mine" scene with Juliet did you find normal? TPTB put that there for a reason. They gave us another facet of Ben Linus. They have done nothing to redeem or remediate him of that portion of his personality. I have no idea what Ben's end will be, but don't make the mistake of thinking he is a good guy. His interests may coincide with the Losties for now but I have no doubt that when the two interests conflict, Ben will be 100% for himself and his interests. (Remember, he said he was smart enough to not end up in the Dharma pit.)


Really, I hate those conservative puritans who give you a big guilt trip for a little genocide. It's like that Nuremberg which-hunt all over again. Get with the times people, genocide is modern and healthy! ;)



I guess I too am one of those conservative puritans who believes that poisoning your father in cold blood without remorse is a really bad thing. I also think murdering your rivals and trying to possess other human beings is pretty insane too.

I really, really don't mean to be mean or to start up an argument, but you can't seriously think Ben is selfish? Like, that he is enjoying his life on that wretched rock, loving the fact that he's never known love or a normal social life, to put it that way... Even if he is the damn king of the Island, that still doesn't bring him happiness and/or peace at all... Whatever he does, he does for that Rock or maybe even the greater good we are yet to find out... Dharma was evil in the simplest sense of that word... Ben hated Dharma... That's not a clear implication that he is great, but, c'mon, cut him some slack... the character was designed to make you hate him at first, but the last four episodes were made pretty much to convince you that there is much more going on with him than you know, and while I do understand how some people have a hard time accepting him as a great guy because of the atrocious things he does to keep the Island/humanity safe, I really don't see how you can think of him as selfish...

Actually, I think you have hit on Ben's problem. As island protector his life was the "sacrifice the island demanded." Maybe he was not supposed to have friends or close relationships. Locke had a difficult time with that too. But Ben decided he had to have someone. Then instead of protecting the island, he started using the island for his own personal, selfish desires. (The same type of thing he accuses Widmore of wanting to do.) So he had Juliet brought in. He has work for her to do try to save the pregnant women. We don't know if that goal in anyway helps things on the island. It may be at cross purposes. He used to have dreams, and he used to be able to hear Jacob, but now he can't. Perhaps it is because he stopped listening and started to fulfill his own desires.

Ben has failed. I'm not sure yet why or when he fell out favor, but clearly he has, and it happened before 815 crashed. So, if he was working for the good of all, the island or Jacob did not approve of his tactics or his lifestyle.

I think Ben started putting his own needs above the island's needs. (See above.)

I think that everyone (please forgive me if the uyse of this word is incorrect, there is just no possible way for me to read every single post and thread, so I assume) may be thinking that by moving the island that they were refering to a physical move as oppsed to, say , a time move. Isn't it possible that the one station we have yet to see, actually has something to do with the ability to time travel and that it may have the power to not only jump people, but actually jump the whole island, and the only reason this has yet to be done is that it is such a powerful force that to do it takes up too much power or risk or whatever that it has only been done a few times...like it originally was wherever the four toed statue was, and then it was in the Atlantic and picked up a slave ship...I know this thought isn't complete, yet I believe it holds some weight....any thoughts?

Do we know for sure that it was Alpert that invited Locke to Mittleos, or is that what TPTB want us to think by showing Alpert in two previous flashbacks but not in this one? Could it be someone else, say Widmore, also want Locke?


The teacher said that Mr. Alpert called.

Thanks Avandelay, I just rewatched the epi and caught that.

Ben is not just a murderer, he is also an insanely creepy individual. What part of that "you're mine" scene with Juliet did you find normal? TPTB put that there for a reason. They gave us another facet of Ben Linus. They have done nothing to redeem or remediate him of that portion of his personality. I have no idea what Ben's end will be, but don't make the mistake of thinking he is a good guy. His interests may coincide with the Losties for now but I have no doubt that when the two interests conflict, Ben will be 100% for himself and his interests. (Remember, he said he was smart enough to not end up in the Dharma pit.)



I guess I too am one of those conservative puritans who believes that poisoning your father in cold blood without remorse is a really bad thing. I also think murdering your rivals and trying to possess other human beings is pretty insane too.



Actually, I think you have hit on Ben's problem. As island protector his life was the "sacrifice the island demanded." Maybe he was not supposed to have friends or close relationships. Locke had a difficult time with that too. But Ben decided he had to have someone. Then instead of protecting the island, he started using the island for his own personal, selfish desires. (The same type of thing he accuses Widmore of wanting to do.) So he had Juliet brought in. He has work for her to do try to save the pregnant women. We don't know if that goal in anyway helps things on the island. It may be at cross purposes. He used to have dreams, and he used to be able to hear Jacob, but now he can't. Perhaps it is because he stopped listening and started to fulfill his own desires.



I think Ben started putting his own needs above the island's needs. (See above.)

The first thing I disagree with because his interests ARE the interests of the Island... He did make a mistake in Island's eyes by choosing to do some things for himself, and I am sure he won't do it again, because he does things for the Island in the future as well (probably)...

About his selfish deeds, I do agree partially, but I definitely understand him. We don't know what Danielle's story is yet, but I believe Ben stole Alex for a reason that was not purely "I wanted a family"... Maybe I'm wrong, we'll see... But he did find this baby on the Island where it couldn't survive with her mother, and he provided her with what she needed... Sure enough, why he didn't bring her to the mainland and gave her up for adoption or why he didn't help Danielle out as well (or maybe he did?) remains to be seen, but even if he just wanted a kid, I still understand him... My guess is Annie died curing childbirth, and Ben realized he could not have his own children...And I guess it would be too risky going through the investigative process of adopting off Island for him... Or maybe he thought that the Island "owed him one" after all he did, and saw the birth of that baby as a sign to take her??? I don't know, could go either way, but he did love her, that's for sure.

His argument with Juliet is also pretty selfish and nasty, but that alone doesn't mean that he is bad, merely that he is childishly in love, and that his judgment got clouded for one brief moment... I know we could debate about this endlessly, and I don't think any of us will change our points of view, but you have to understand that the reason why you see "you are mine" as such an atrocious act is because of the whole context of Benjamin's character prior to that scene... He might've been possessive with Juliet, but she wasn't brought there because he wanted to (not ONLY because of that), but because they really needed her, and Alpert himself made sure she would get there, as world's leading doctor... Maybe he did make her stay longer than he should have, but that can also be interpreted in a few ways... And as for Goodwin... Darlton themselves confirmed Ben didn't know he would get killed, he merely wanted him away so he could hit on Juliet...

Yea I noticed that. What I thought when i saw it was that it hinted to the fact that Widmore was and is a major play in th DI. All the info he has on the island and the fact that he told Ben the island was his, is making me think that he was one of the original bakers of the DI and that he has been on the island.

"I too think Widmore is Dharma related. The definition of island is not geographical or geological but rather "island" as in control/command center. I think Widmore Industries was responsible for the conception of the core computer that runs the whole Dharma system where the Losties are located and he wants it back. I think that the real Henry Gale's balloon was a clue to Widmore's involvement with Dharma early on-that the Widmore Industries logo in it just wasn't entirely for decoration

You raise a very good question Fierro. Why wouldn't Ben have thought of it on his own. I'm getting ready to go watch again, but do you recall if Ben seemed at all surprised when Locke said they were going to move the island? His reaction may be a good indicator of how in the know he actually was/is. It seems that if he knew that was a possiblity, he'd have done that as soon as he knew the freighter was in the vacinity.


i'm 90% sure that they didn't cut back to ben+hurleys faces after locke said that, they just kinda slowly zoomed on him for a few seconds while the closing music rolled.

Yeah I too wonder what the second protocol is, considering that the first protocol was already kill everyone on the island. What's the second one -- kill everyone on the island AND spit on their graves?


I just get the feeling that the primary protocol was to eliminate the survivors (why else would he fake the 815 discovery?), and secondary protocol would be that if he is compromised in any way, eliminate the island as well (sort of a "if I can't have the island, no one can" idea). Again, I'm just speculating....

The first thing I disagree with because his interests ARE the interests of the Island... He did make a mistake in Island's eyes by choosing to do some things for himself, and I am sure he won't do it again, because he does things for the Island in the future as well (probably)...

About his selfish deeds, I do agree partially, but I definitely understand him. We don't know what Danielle's story is yet, but I believe Ben stole Alex for a reason that was not purely "I wanted a family"... Maybe I'm wrong, we'll see... But he did find this baby on the Island where it couldn't survive with her mother, and he provided her with what she needed... Sure enough, why he didn't bring her to the mainland and gave her up for adoption or why he didn't help Danielle out as well (or maybe he did?) remains to be seen, but even if he just wanted a kid, I still understand him... My guess is Annie died curing childbirth, and Ben realized he could not have his own children...And I guess it would be too risky going through the investigative process of adopting off Island for him... Or maybe he thought that the Island "owed him one" after all he did, and saw the birth of that baby as a sign to take her??? I don't know, could go either way, but he did love her, that's for sure.

His argument with Juliet is also pretty selfish and nasty, but that alone doesn't mean that he is bad, merely that he is childishly in love, and that his judgment got clouded for one brief moment... I know we could debate about this endlessly, and I don't think any of us will change our points of view, but you have to understand that the reason why you see "you are mine" as such an atrocious act is because of the whole context of Benjamin's character prior to that scene... He might've been possessive with Juliet, but she wasn't brought there because he wanted to (not ONLY because of that), but because they really needed her, and Alpert himself made sure she would get there, as world's leading doctor... Maybe he did make her stay longer than he should have, but that can also be interpreted in a few ways... And as for Goodwin... Darlton themselves confirmed Ben didn't know he would get killed, he merely wanted him away so he could hit on Juliet...

I know you like the character but this is a crafted story. We are shown bits and pieces of each character's life for a reason. First Ben was portrayed as a cold blooded killer, then later he was portrayed as jealous and vindictive to an insane degree. I have not heard that Darlton said they did not know Goodwin would die. But even so, that does not mean Ben had no idea he would be killed. He just did not know for certain. Just like when letting the smoke monster out he could not know for certain that the freighter mercenaries would be killed. But I'm sure Ben's anger at them gave the smoke monster reason to attack them and that he could expect something like that to happen when he let the smoke monster out.

TPTB have done a great deal to show that Ben is very far from being redeemed. To simply show him from now on as nothing but a good guy would be artifice and quite disingenuous. To get him where you want him to be, they will have to do a great deal more with the character. In the future, we see that he has promised to kill Penny and he is manipulating Sayid to do his bidding. Is this action protection for the island or is it merely part of Ben's selfish personal vendetta? Hint: If Locke moves the island, why do they have to kill anyone off island to protect it?

Hurley giving Ben half a candy bar shows they are now sharing something (the same situation -- Ben is no longer head honcho). He is in danger as the Losties are. But that does not mean he is in equal danger. It does not mean he hasn't got a plan. Ben is a manipulator. That was made very clear as a distinction between him and Locke. We haven't seen the last of the master of manipulation yet. He will find a way to gain an advantage for himself. But, until he learns that people choosing their own way works, he won't change and he won't be a good guy.

Again, there may be some master plan in which Ben Linus does lead to the final resolution of the Lost situation, but so far we have little indication it is because Ben becomes a good guy.

I know you like the character but this is a crafted story. We are shown bits and pieces of each character's life for a reason. First Ben was portrayed as a cold blooded killer, then later he was portrayed as jealous and vindictive to an insane degree. I have not heard that Darlton said they did not know Goodwin would die. But even so, that does not mean Ben had no idea he would be killed. He just did not know for certain. Just like when letting the smoke monster out he could not know for certain that the freighter mercenaries would be killed. But I'm sure Ben's anger at them gave the smoke monster reason to attack them and that he could expect something like that to happen when he let the smoke monster out.

TPTB have done a great deal to show that Ben is very far from being redeemed. To simply show him from now on as nothing but a good guy would be artifice and quite disingenuous. To get him where you want him to be, they will have to do a great deal more with the character. In the future, we see that he has promised to kill Penny and he is manipulating Sayid to do his bidding. Is this action protection for the island or is it merely part of Ben's selfish personal vendetta? Hint: If Locke moves the island, why do they have to kill anyone off island to protect it?

Hurley giving Ben half a candy bar shows they are now sharing something (the same situation -- Ben is no longer head honcho). He is in danger as the Losties are. But that does not mean he is in equal danger. It does not mean he hasn't got a plan. Ben is a manipulator. That was made very clear as a distinction between him and Locke. We haven't seen the last of the master of manipulation yet. He will find a way to gain an advantage for himself. But, until he learns that people choosing their own way works, he won't change and he won't be a good guy.

Again, there may be some master plan in which Ben Linus does lead to the final resolution of the Lost situation, but so far we have little indication it is because Ben becomes a good guy.

Fair enough, you could very well be right, like I said to someone else previously, it's either/or and a matter of perception. I agree that he killed, those factual things I can't deny, but I don't think he's a cold-blooded killer at all... We only saw him kill his abusive father, and from what we've learned he might've done that because Alpert asked that of him as a sacrifice for the Island... I honestly don't say all this because I love the character, but I love the character because he is like that... I am a normal gal :biggrin: . and I for sure wouldn't have sympathy or the hots for a selfish, evil manipulator and murderer... We did see him manipulate MANY times, but he doesn't really do that for himself, does he??? He does it for the Island... Like I said countless times, his life is NOT good. He has no reason whatsoever to do anything for himself on that rock, but he does that because he committed himself to it... NOthing in his life is pleasurable... And Locke manipulated Hurley just like Benjamin did, but he hypocritically refused to admit to that, which I think is disgusting, given that Locke knows what Ben sacrificed for that Island he loves so much for no reason... As far as killing goes, even in the future, we see Benjamin going on a very dangerous mission, and how??? Carrying a TOTSCHLAGER. Not a rifle. not a gun. Not even a knife. But a stick. A stick to use to HIT people only if necessary, and NOT kill them... Think about that for a second... He refrains from killing EVER unless it's to save his own life like in the desert... Even then he didn't kill the second beduin, did he??
I know LOST is all about redemption, but I don't think he has anything to be redeemed for... We perceive his actions as negative because that's how Darlton presented him to us, but it's becoming clearer he is doing everything for the Island and the greater good, and that those sacrifices are necessary... As in, people perceiving him as an evil and horrible person is necessary for him to successfully lead his mission... I don't think he could do it any other way... But I completely believe when he says that they are the good guys. Even in Cabin Fever Darlton found a way to tell us he wasn't responsible for the purge, and that we shouldn't blame him for that... Sure he's got other flaws, sure him showing Goodwin's body to Julliet was nice at all, but understand the pain he's going through seeing his most loyal servant recklessly lying to his wife, destroying the community, and screwing the woman he knew Ben liked... To me, that's far worse than what Ben did, honestly... His personality is flawed (because of the wretched Island), but he is not evil.

What I think is that all Darlton need to do is to show us the reasons behind Benjamin's actions to have him emerge as the show's ultimate good guy... The only reason I think they are keeping any ambiguity at all is because the viewers like it, and because we don't have many other antagonists on the show... Up until now... We'll see how it goes anyway!

Ben wasn't responsible for the purge, he was only a pawn.
Keamy protocol?? Destroy the Temple??

I really, really don't mean to be mean or to start up an argument, but you can't seriously think Ben is selfish? Like, that he is enjoying his life on that wretched rock, loving the fact that he's never known love or a normal social life, to put it that way... Even if he is the damn king of the Island, that still doesn't bring him happiness and/or peace at all... Whatever he does, he does for that Rock or maybe even the greater good we are yet to find out...
I think he does everything he can to bring himself happiness. He tried for love with Juliette. When it was clear that she loved someone else instead, he set that person up to die, and then gloated in front of his rotting corpse in front of her. And when it became clear that Locke had a stronger connection with the island than he did, and that the island needed his help, he shot him in the gut and left him for dead, because he cared more for his own position of power than he did for the island, or anything else.

Those are a couple of the reasons why I think that Ben is insanely selfish. Here's another one -- when he's grief-stricken by the murder of his daughter, he decides to make himself feel better by murdering the innocent daughter of the man responsible.

I think he does everything he can to bring himself happiness. He tried for love with Juliette. When it was clear that she loved someone else instead, he set that person up to die, and then gloated in front of his rotting corpse in front of her. And when it became clear that Locke had a stronger connection with the island than he did, and that the island needed his help, he shot him in the gut and left him for dead, because he cared more for his own position of power than he did for the island, or anything else.

Those are a couple of the reasons why I think that Ben is insanely selfish. Here's another one -- when he's grief-stricken by the murder of his daughter, he decides to make himself feel better by murdering the innocent daughter of the man responsible.

We'll see about Penelope, something's been telling me she's everything but innocent since day one, but that's just my gut feeling...:biggrin:

Again, great points about Ben, if you see things from that perspective... those two cases (Goodwin and Locke) I see as isolated and undergone as a projection of despair of a man who tried to find little happiness within his mission, but couldn't... I do agree that Ben has a flawed character, but I don't see it as an evil or a selfish one, mostly because it was created due to the Island-ic circumstances around him... All of the two (three) examples were brought to us in scenes where Ben was incredibly grief-stricken because of many things (you know the narrative, so I won't write them down), and, like he admitted, his judgment wasn't clear...And I truly understand that, it can happen to any of us... Similar things occurred to Kate and Jack, respectively, and they are not bad people at al... If these things occur again (him doing something openly to satisfy himself), I will probably consider him selfish at times, but still not evil... Again, we'll see, out of all characters' stories, his has by far the loongest way to go, flashback, flashforward and sideways...:cool:

i think at some point widmore worked for or backed dharma and then fell in with the island and became a leader of the others and was the one who ordered the purge then ben filled his spot now he wants it all back