Richard Didn't seem happy about Locke picking the Knife, and Later the principal/Guidance counselor told him he''s not an althlete or prom king.


Interesting.

Yes, I thought it was odd that his teacher was basically telling him he was a man of science, which doesn't seem like the Locke we know.

I felt sorry for him, it was like Hagrid turning up to take Harry Potter to Hogwarts for the first time then deciding he wasn't good enough.

Yea its weird.

Ad whats up with abaddon telling him to do the walkabout

People tried to push Locke in a specific direction, so he went as far in the opposite direction as he could.

People tried to push Locke in a specific direction, so he went as far in the opposite direction as he could.
I don't think they pushed Locke in the opposite direction, I think they projected their needs and wishes onto thim, and didn't pay attention to who he really was.
There certainly was a parallel between the geeky science teacher and Alpert.
Both recognize that Locke is special (in different ways) but neither truly "saw" him.
It's a universal experience for adolescents... to be singled out for the wrong reasons. Locke's storyline takes that to the max.
Good writing.

But had Locke chosen science he would not be the man of faith who could listen to the island. He would have followed Jack like a lemming. He would not be the man to question Jack's authority. (Boone might have been better off :rolleyes:) It's funny how he followed the words (that seemed crazy) of Abbadon but disdained his teachers when he was told he had a natural aptitude for science. He followed the faith of his "gut".

So Locke thinks he is a hunter, but that is not what Richard is looking for.

The science teacher thinks he is meant to be a man of science. Locke resists, being more interested in boxing, fishing, sports and cars. The teacher tells him he can't be a superhero. He says, "don't tell me what I can't do!", clearly showing that this kid can't be pushed into doing something against his will.

New plan.

Abbadon suggests the walkabout. Something a hunter/outdoorsman/superhero would enjoy. But also something that will open his mind up to his true purpose. Abbadon also mentions that when he went on a walkabout he thought he was one thing, but came back another.

The "walkabout" is Locke's life on the island. He started out hunting boar and whatever he could find, trying to be the big hero. But as time passed, he became a man of faith, and less of a hunter. Now the island/Jacob wants him. And he proved himself by asking the right question, "How do I save the island?" Not, "How do we destroy the invaders?" as a true hunter would ask.

Walkabout successful...Hunter eradicated - Man of faith firmly established.

Abbadon knew Locke would find his true purpose by going to the island. He knew he couldn't tell him what to do. So he suggested the walkabout so Locke would discover his purpose on his own, and choose this path because it was his OWN idea. Much like how Ben manipulates people into doing what he wants and thinking it was their own idea.

Whether or not Ben and Abbadon are on the same side, they both know the art of manipulation.

So Locke thinks he is a hunter, but that is not what Richard is looking for.

The science teacher thinks he is meant to be a man of science. Locke resists, being more interested in boxing, fishing, sports and cars. The teacher tells him he can't be a superhero. He says, "don't tell me what I can't do!", clearly showing that this kid can't be pushed into doing something against his will.

New plan.

Abbadon suggests the walkabout. Something a hunter/outdoorsman/superhero would enjoy. But also something that will open his mind up to his true purpose. Abbadon also mentions that when he went on a walkabout he thought he was one thing, but came back another.

The "walkabout" is Locke's life on the island. He started out hunting boar and whatever he could find, trying to be the big hero. But as time passed, he became a man of faith, and less of a hunter. Now the island/Jacob wants him. And he proved himself by asking the right question, "How do I save the island?" Not, "How do we destroy the invaders?" as a true hunter would ask.

Walkabout successful...Hunter eradicated - Man of faith firmly established.

Abbadon knew Locke would find his true purpose by going to the island. He knew he couldn't tell him what to do. So he suggested the walkabout so Locke would discover his purpose on his own, and choose this path because it was his OWN idea. Much like how Ben manipulates people into doing what he wants and thinking it was their own idea.

Whether or not Ben and Abbadon are on the same side, they both know the art of manipulation.

No no

I dont think your understanding the nature of Alperts test. Its similiar to the test given for the Dalai Lama

"They spoke to him and to his parents and performed a test. The monks had brought several items with them from their home monastery. Some of the items had belonged to the thirteenth Dalai Lama and others were imitations or just common objects. Lhamo correctly identified the objects that had belonged to the thirteenth Dalai Lama. "

They are using Budda ideas of destiny, foreknowlege, and God forbid, reincarnation. Hopefully they will be just using some type of foreknowlege

Now was that really Eko who said "After all you are a hunter John" or the Island?

What did Eko tell him early on in season 3. He said that John either "was" or "was not" a hunter...

No no

I dont think your understanding the nature of Alperts test. Its similiar to the test given for the Dalai Lama

"They spoke to him and to his parents and performed a test. The monks had brought several items with them from their home monastery. Some of the items had belonged to the thirteenth Dalai Lama and others were imitations or just common objects. Lhamo correctly identified the objects that had belonged to the thirteenth Dalai Lama. "

They are using Budda ideas of destiny, foreknowlege, and God forbid, reincarnation. Hopefully they will be just using some type of foreknowlege

Yes, I have read and understand the whole Dalai Lama thing, and it is an interesting analogy. But it doesn't fully make sense in the context of what we were shown tonight.

Locke was meant to pick what was his in a former life, and he didn't. He chose the wrong item. Yet he was later given another chance, when prompted to go to Mittelos Science Camp. Do the Dalai Lama candidates get a second chance?

And what about Abbadon's remark about his own walkabout, and how he thought he was one thing, but came back another? That suggest that he is being prompted to either change, or realize his true destiny, not foreknowledge.

Actually John, I am still trying to unscramble my brain after this episode. Trying to make sense of everything. I don't know what I think right now. Really, both ideas make a lot of sense, and I suppose that somehow it all ties together into something that combines both ideas into something entirely different. YOu know how these writers are.

Maybe you are right and John, even as a kid, was just super stubborn and refused to be lead around. He chose the knife just so Richard wouldn't tell him what to do.

Interestingly, it was when Locke didn't use a knife to kill his father that Alpert helped him out and got Sawyer to do it. Maybe before then, Alpert wouldn't have said things like "we're all excited you're here" (if i recall correctly), until Locke passed up the knife.

The first thing I thought of when Alpert put the items out was the long running theme over whether Locke is a "hunter" or gatherer."

Locke's attempts to being a "Hunter:"
- playing war games with a friend at work
- choosing to do the "walkabout"
- hunting boar for the Losties
- knowing how to track animals/people
- being a hunter for the commune he lives in
- telling the FBI kid that he is a hunter
- teaching Walt how to throw knives
- killing Naomi
- rejecting the science camp because he likes sports, etc

Evidence that Locke is a "Gatherer:"
- Supervisor who scoffs at Locke (This always seemed a bit weird to me on rewatching... In this day and age who makes fun of someone wheelchair bound unless you're trying to flirt with a law suit?)
- He is easily conned by "hunter types"
- FBI kid telling, no you are a Gatherer, John
- inability to kill the FBI kid
- Alpert's reaction to his choice of Knife
- getting beat up by other kids at school
- inability to kill his father
- inability to "clean up his messes in the manner in which others tell him to.... ie, kill someone"
- Teacher telling him to go to the science camp

The Items and their Meaning:
Gloves: Sports/physical activity/competition - a hunter ability
Book of Laws: Cerebral/Justice/order - a leader ability
Sand in Tube: The Island/Spiritual
Compass: Cerebral/Search/Tracking - leadership/seeker/shamanistic ability (I need to rewatch, but was this an old time compass? IE. Hanso's?)
Comic Book: Fantasy/Cerebral/Role Playing - a way for non-hunters to pretend they are hunters (ie. superheros)
the Knife: Physical/Attack/Death/Protection/Competition/Darwin Survival - a hunter ability

Alpert: Which of these things already belongs to you?
Possible Interpretations:
A- Which of these items are symbolically owned by you?
B- Which of these items is actually yours in a future timeline?

A- Who are you, John?
B- Do you accept who you are, John?

The order in which Locke chooses:
1- Sand (the Island) without much hesitation
2- Compass without much hesitation. Plays with compass a bit.
3- The Knife. Alpert asks if John is sure, and then becomes angry. Alpert abruptly leaves the house saying that Locke isn't what he thought.

What item(s) actually do belong to Locke?
- The sand (Island)
- The compass?
- or the Book of Laws?

Alpert vs. Abaddon:
It is interesting to note that the knife is brought out last, and with the handle away from Locke. When Locke chooses this item, Alpert ends the interview and leaves Locke (presumably) alone for about 10 years.

Abaddon, however, wants Locke to choose the knife. He is the one who plants the idea of going on a walkabout, which ultimately leads to Locke finding the Island. This seems like a Long Con - get Locke to think it's his idea.... That yes, he is a hunter. Note that Abaddon cleverly manipulates Locke by circumventing the entire "don't tell me what I can't do!" response, as well. He basically gets Locke to do something that Locke SERIOUSLY CANNOT DO. He is the serpent telling Eve, you should taste this fruit. Whereas God has told Eve something "she cannot do."

What the heck does this all mean?
Locke, ultimately, is not a hunter. He realizes this deep down, but has fought his entire life against it. He sees the immediately strength of the hunters who have shaped his life, and he rejects his own brand of strength in favor for the more open showmanship of these hunter types.
There are many forces at work in his life who either try to guide him towards realizing his strength of faith, try to manipulate him into thinking he's a hunter, or take advantage of the fact that he's not a hunter.
The Island has sought Locke as its new Protector. However, it does not ask Locke to protect it via hunting. Locke is not supposed to go commando and kill Keamy's team. Instead he is merely supposed to "move" it.
All of the zig zags we have seen with Locke and his Flash backs are leading up to Locke ultimately accepting who he really is, and he is not a hunter.

I hate to be shallow, but if John Locke really had pursued a talent for science, he would have ended up with a much better material life than he had working at Toys R Us, being a building inspector (though that one's actually not too bad), growing pot on a commune and being a regional collection manager for a box company. The Locke we saw in the phone-sex-Helen scene was living in poverty.

Awesome post. Really well thought out, I am still letting it sink in.

Wasn't it his knife? I thought it was... I wasn't so sure if Richard was dissaproving of his choice. I wondered if he was looking for confirmation, and he got it. But pulling John out of his tragic life and putting him in a place where he was special would have changed who he was. The present John who has been broken and made whole again by the island is a totally different person that a John who had found love from his parents or who had been validated as smart or special by teachers, etc. He was always expected to settle for what he got, but John refused to just settle. He wouldn't let anyone tell him what he can't do. He didn't choose to lay down and die, he chose to fight from day one of his life. Through his pain and heartache he found strength. This is what made him into a "hunter".

The mention of the walkabout was great--this seems to be confirmation that this was their way to bring him to the island.

The Items and their Meaning:
Gloves: Sports/physical activity/competition - a hunter ability
Book of Laws: Cerebral/Justice/order - a leader ability
Sand in Tube: The Island/Spiritual
Compass: Cerebral/Search/Tracking - leadership/seeker/shamanistic ability (I need to rewatch, but was this an old time compass? IE. Hanso's?)
Comic Book: Fantasy/Cerebral/Role Playing - a way for non-hunters to pretend they are hunters (ie. superheros)
the Knife: Physical/Attack/Death/Protection/Competition/Darwin Survival - a hunter ability



Gloves - I'm ok with your interpretation. A baseball glove could also imply catching, trapping, snaring, which goes along with your "hunter" analysis. A tool for obtaining something elusive.

Book of Laws: What kind of laws? Societal laws or physical/scientific laws? A combination of the two? Someone who understands the laws has power - whether societal laws (lawyers/politicians/rulers) or scientific laws (technological power).

Sand in Tube: While the sand may or may not actually come from the island (it probably does), sand itself is a common symbol for sleep/dreams (Sandman), and/or the passage of time (sand in an hourglass).

Compass: I had the feeling I had seen this compass before. Symbolically, compasses relate to travel, finding one's way (i.e. John's walkabout), and navigation. Also, of course, compasses are magnetic.

Comic Book: Walt had a (different) comic book as well. Comics are a juxtaposition of text and pictures, and therefore symbolic of a combination of left- and right-brained thinking. Ordered and logical combined with artistic. A unified, balanced personality. Mental activity over physical, as you stated.

Knife - Knives are more than just weapons. Knives are symbolic of divisiveness - they cut things apart. Perhaps Alpert was looking for a unifying personality and was disappointed when John chose the symbol of cutting things into pieces. Knives are also phallic symbols.

-AJF

the knives that locke brought were a brand new, top-of-the-line.

the knife that Richard brought out was very old.... worn, and seems to have been made quite a long time ago. it was obviously *somebody's* knife, and i wouldn't be surprised if we didn't see more of that in future episodes.

Richard is somehow able to travel back into time since he appears to have not aged at all from the 50/60's to date. Maybe buy going back in time, the future can be altered. Had Locke not choose the knife, which I think is the same knife he is carrying about the island, perhaps he would have never used it to kill Naomi.... which in turn made him a bad person?
100%
the knives that locke brought were a brand new, top-of-the-line.

the knife that Richard brought out was very old.... worn, and seems to have been made quite a long time ago. it was obviously *somebody's* knife, and i wouldn't be surprised if we didn't see more of that in future episodes.

he could have brought the knife from the future?

Knife - Knives are more than just weapons. Knives are symbolic of divisiveness - they cut things apart. Perhaps Alpert was looking for a unifying personality and was disappointed when John chose the symbol of cutting things into pieces. Knives are also phallic symbols.

-AJF

Knives in the context of Locke's overarcing story have been shown to be tools of the hunter. I think Alpert's test ties into Christian's question "what is the one important question now?" The Locke they didn't want was the one who would ask "How can I kill Keamy?" the Locke they want is the one who says "How can I save the Island?"

"The Island asks for sacrifices." - Locke

I like what you are saying here, and I can't help but think that socially and developmentally the deck was stacked against John right from the start being the premature, illigitimate child of a teen mother who abbandoned him, and then he ended up in a foster family that didn't seem to love him. I think it's significant that his foster sister was being a real b*tch to him at the backgammon board and then he picked the knife. If Locke had a loving family maybe he could have had the clarity of vision to pick a different object. I think what Patchy was saying to the Sayid, Kate and Locke about them being broken, angry and hurt and not being able to understand what the island is about illustrates this.

Just thinking aloud though, this episode really had a lot of food for thought and there's a lot of awesome stuff being written here that I hadn't thought about!



Wasn't it his knife? I thought it was... I wasn't so sure if Richard was dissaproving of his choice. I wondered if he was looking for confirmation, and he got it. But pulling John out of his tragic life and putting him in a place where he was special would have changed who he was. The present John who has been broken and made whole again by the island is a totally different person that a John who had found love from his parents or who had been validated as smart or special by teachers, etc. He was always expected to settle for what he got, but John refused to just settle. He wouldn't let anyone tell him what he can't do. He didn't choose to lay down and die, he chose to fight from day one of his life. Through his pain and heartache he found strength. This is what made him into a "hunter".

The mention of the walkabout was great--this seems to be confirmation that this was their way to bring him to the island.