So, Captain Gault (RIP) mentions to Keamy that Regina jumped off the boat "while he was gone." Is that even correct?!?!

We're to assume that Keamy left in the chopper with Frank during episode 7 or 8, correct?!?!

If that's the case, how was Omar (on the island since episode 7 or 8) the one who responded to Faraday's morse code message (which was sent in episode 10 - the same episode that we saw Keamy and Omar tramping through the jungle in)?!?!

The timeline just doesn't make sense, and I'm pretty sure I don't think the whole "Doc Ray Thing" is interesting... it seems a little silly, and very contrived.

Someone, try to make some sense of this.

Obviously the time difference between the island and the freighter has become more than 31 minutes somehow...

I'm not even concerned with the whole "time difference" fiascal. (I think the entire idea is non-sense.) I'm more interested in the continuity of the show - how did Omar respond to a morse code that was sent in the "evening of episode nine" when Keamy and Omar didn't even get back to the ship until what looked like "late afternoon of episode 11"?!?! Especially considering that Omar was running through the jungle while Faraday sent the message.

my wife and i were questionioning the timeline tonight, as to do with the doctor and morris code.. if time is moving slower on the island than the boat/outer world, how did the doctor end up dead on the island before he was killed on the boat? seems like the writers are having a hard time keeping up with their own ideas?? anyone else feel this as a mistake? if time is moving slower, wouldnt it take a few weeks after his death on the boat for his body to wash ashore? thats not even counting the float time and the fact that he would require water currents to push his body along...

"The writers cannot keep up with their own ideas."

Absolutely. Dead on. It's actually very irritating.

"The writers cannot keep up with their own ideas."

Absolutely. Dead on. It's actually very irritating.


Or there's something we don't know yet...I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt until we know the ball has been dropped...for the most part, with few exceptions, the writers are good about continuity...I don't think they'd mess up as bad as you think...i may be wrong, but I'm at least going to wait for an explanation before I judge.

When Omar mentioned to to the Doc about the morse code and his throat being slit and then Keamy slits it, wouldn't Omar be like WTF!

Maybe the island time is in front? Thats what I was thinking when I saw the Dr and the Morse Code, you go back in time by a day or so when you go to the freighter?

I don't know, its brain frying, its why i don't always like people messing with time.

this wasnt a mistake in tha least bit and it will be explained. when Omar made his comment about the morse code message, it was to inform the viewer of the obvious time difference in tha Doctor's death. it was blatent people....you'll see

this wasnt a mistake in tha least bit and it will be explained. when Omar made his comment about the morse code message, it was to inform the viewer of the obvious time difference in tha Doctor's death. it was blatent people....you'll see

I totally agree with this. I can't believe the writers would make such a big goof in their own writing about a strange idea (time travel/difference) -- they will explain it.

Maybe the longer they are on or near the island the bigger the time gap becomes.

I took the presentation of the Doctor's death as a sure sign that the time travel we've seen is random, chaotic, or at least highly sensitive to the way you get to/from the island. Omar received the Morse code while the mercs were getting out of the helicopter. If the scenes on the beach last episode were concurrent with the barracks attack, those same mercs were on the island at the time that message was being sent!

If the mercs had used their radios to talk to the freighter, they could have had a nice little conversation with themselves. Paradox alert!

First post here...had to comment because I too was bothered by this. I was thinking that the discrepancies were because all of them were arriving at the island by different coordinates (this might not be the correct term but I think you catch my drift). Haven't had time to expand on this thought yet but at 11:30 (way past my bedtime) it seemed to satisfy my confusion.

First off, I believe the island is further in the future than the rest of the world. And I think the 31 minutes it took for Faraday's rocket either had to do with the coordinates he was experimenting with or the speed the rocket travels versus the speed of a boat or helicopter, or both. The amount of time it takes to reach the island could differ depending on the coordinates taken.

What's really interesting is the fact that we already see the helicopter flying over as if there was no difference at all in time. So, Keamy kills the doctor and then they immediately board the helicopter and take off. Meanwhile, on the island, the body of the doctor washed up at least a day before? Plus, who knows what route the body took riding in with the tide. It obviously would not have followed the right course which could have seriously jacked it's arrival.

cant be further in the future..the poeple on the boat confirmed touchdown of the rocket, or their radar confirmed touchdown of the rocket before it actually touchdown on the island..by that aspect alone, the island would be behind.. faradays experiment with the rocket, is what lead me to think the doctor thing was a mistake.

I agree it was intentional, and to tell us the island is about 12-48 hours IN THE FUTURE. The time difference could be determined based on the time for the doctor to wash ashore.

On the other hand, if travelling through the portal to the island takes one INTO THE PAST, then a second dead doctor could be washing up on the island while the first doctor is still alive on the boat (but not for long)

However, traveling into the past creates all kinds of paradox issues, which we know TPTB want to avoid, so I think it has to be the former explanation.

BUT, I think the latter is more consistent with the 2 days Jack et. al. waited for communication from Sayid upon reaching the freighter (assuming radio communication is near instantaneous, and that travelling back to the freighter takes one back to the future (hey that would be a good title for a movie :)).

Still confused I guess.

I think the writers are confused themselves. The helipocter takes off from the tanker, right after the mercs re-supply...so they are there maybe an hour? That's when Omar receives the message that Daniel sent inquiring about the Dr.

So when they fly over Jacks beach camp...2 hours after receiving Daniels morse code tops...it's been at least 2 days since Danilel sent the message pre-Jack's surgery. Presumably if the mercs had landed at the beach camp, they could have dug up the Dr.'s body that Keamy had just killed.

Like a previous writer stated, Omar can't be on the freighter sending replies to Daniel and be runnng from the smoke monster at the same time. The writers need to get a grasp on this before they turn this into Star Trek.

That's a good point. And like you said, the thing with the doctor would seem to contradict that. I got to thinking about the whole time differential thing when Christian told Locke that he wanted him to move the island. I wondered then if he actually meant move the island in time rather than physically. Of course, if you only moved time then the island would still be there when the people from the freighter arrived, only the people may not be there, or the situation would be different. That is, unless the island only exists in one point in time. Faraday stressed that time on the island is relative. I take that to mean it's not stagnant, but more situational. If I remember right it was only after Faraday did the experiment with the rocket that he stressed to the pilot to stay on that heading. When they came in that first time they nearly crashed which tells me they probably didn't use the exact right heading. No one seemed to have the same symptoms as Desmond, but then again I don't think anyone of them have been exposed to the same electromagnetic pulse or whatever it was that Desmond has. It seems to be a work in progress for Faraday to nail down the physics of the island. After all, I think if he knew there was a set time difference he wouldn't have had any problem telling Jack, "There's a 31 minute difference." Instead, he said it's "relative". If he were attempting to hide the island's properties then there would be no reason to say there was any difference in time at all.

i took the whole following the correct cordinates, as if they did not, then they would not get to the island, they would "pass it". just like when desmond tried to sail away from the island so many times, he did not have the right cordinates, therefore, never found the 'hole' to get out of the island.

also, as far as time goes, sayid left the frieghter when it was still light out. keamy and team left after the sun was down and it was completely dark. still no sign of sayid? if anyone watched the previews, you can see what it looks like when sayid arrives. i would not think that the helicopter would arrive that much sooner then sayid, so as someone else mentioned, maybe traveling by air and traveling by water (or the manner to which someone arrives to the island) has a lot to do with the time difference.

It's not that hard to figure people,

Anyone think that maybe the doctor's body didn't approach the Island at the right bearing?

I suppose the Doctor could have gone it at a bearing other than 305 degrees, and been sent a little into the past.

We could also say the island has no time, and exists in all times at once. Time differentials all depend on the bearing, and so different bearings give different results. Rocket, 31 minutes. Doctor, about 20 hours. Walt and Michael - 0 minutes? Sayid and Desmond, 2 days.

Maybe the morse code message didnt make it to the freighter until right before the doctor was killed, and Omar answered it and then told the doctor, and then he was killed right after. So the message they got back on the island saying the doctor was fine was actually from two days in the future when Omar and Keamy were back on the boat already.

The coded message went through a time difference is what I'm trying to say.

Maybe the Morse code message didnt make it to the freighter until right before the doctor was killed, and Omar answered it and then told the doctor, and then he was killed right after. So the message they got back on the island saying the doctor was fine was actually from two days in the future when Omar and Keamy were back on the boat already.

The coded message went through a time difference is what I'm trying to say.

I don't think the messages via phone are being affected by the time dilation. If they were, wouldn't there be a lag between replies? The radio waves are going out in all directions including the correct direction of bearing 305. Its the items like the rocket and Doc's body that get time dilated by traveling via the wrong bearing.

Notice these events when you re watch. It is daytime when these events start. Captain Gault goes to help Sayid and Des by sending Omar down to the armory. As Omar walks away leaving Gault in charge of Sayid and Des, he takes out his phone and hears the Morse code message from Faraday. The message was sent a couple of days earlier before Jack had his surgery. Now, if I am right about the radio messages being in real time, then this whole freighter scene actually takes place two days earlier. It just distorts our (the viewer) perception because these events should have occurred two episodes ago. The Captain tells Sayid he will meet him in 10 minutes to give him the dinghy. When he meets Sayid, it is still daylight. Its still daytime as Sayid drives off. A short time later, the Mercs meet up on deck and kill Gault and Doc. They leave via helicopter at night time. Doc's body beats them to the island by two days. This we know because when Lapidus drops the new phone on camp Lostie, the Doc had done been washed ashore one or two days ago during the morning of the surgery day with Vincent barking and all. This shows us that while on the freighter, you can talk real time to the island, but the travel to and from the island is where time dilation actually occurs. This also makes me think that one or two days elapsed from when the helicopter launched this last time and when they actually arrived over the Losties.

Since we have no correlation of time between the events surrounding Locke, Ben, and Hugo, we don't know if they have already begun moving the island in time yet or not. This would change the departure/arrival time of travelers back and forth from the island. It might also change the approach bearing.

What do you think?

I sorta agree (more hope) that the writers have all eyes on the ball regarding time travel, but...

Keamy was on the boat when Regina tipped herself overboard into the drink...why would he mention it as happening whilst Keamy was gone?

I'm not really sure if this is the place to bring this up, but it has to do with some kind of time difference that I noticed. When the helicopter came back to the ship it was night time (Desmond was awakened by Sayid). We see the doctor looking at one of the injured guys and Keamy talking about a pillar of smoke. Later we see someone talking to Keamy about the injured guy dying and the doc couldn't save him. Later, we see Desmond and Sayid on the deck watching an injured guy being removed from the helicopter (this is right before Omar gets the morse code message.) This guy is not dead, one of the mercs is holding and IV bag. AND it is now daylight!!! This just doesn't make sense to me. Wouldn't they have off loaded any injured during the night and not wait. And besides that, I could be totally wrong, but it seemed like there was only one guy injured when they came upon Lapidus in the jungle.

Like I said... maybe totally off topic. But just seems like the scenes are out of sequence. If someone could she some light on this I would totally appreciate it. I specifically watched for this the second time I watched the episode.

I'm not even concerned with the whole "time difference" fiascal. (I think the entire idea is non-sense.) I'm more interested in the continuity of the show - how did Omar respond to a morse code that was sent in the "evening of episode nine" when Keamy and Omar didn't even get back to the ship until what looked like "late afternoon of episode 11"?!?! Especially considering that Omar was running through the jungle while Faraday sent the message.
How do you know events in different places in one episode were taking place at the same time? The show is telling a story; it doesn't have to tell it chronologically.

Also, how do you know the message that was received on the ship was from the same transmission Faraday sent at the time we saw? Why couldn't the radio communication have taken place twice at different times, just to make it appear the sequence of events was screwy?

I sorta agree (more hope) that the writers have all eyes on the ball regarding time travel, but...

Keamy was on the boat when Regina tipped herself overboard into the drink...why would he mention it as happening whilst Keamy was gone?
I forgot...was that part of MiKevin's story being told to Sayid, or was it after Desmond & Sayid were aboard? If it was part of his story, then easy...MiKevin's story is simply not to be trusted.

Robert

The coded message went through a time difference is what I'm trying to say.
Exactly. Except for anything following the exact 305 degree corridor, there are unpredictable, and sometimes sizable time fluctuations. The radio channel between Faraday and Omar seemingly went through a good-sized offset. The doctor's body went through an even larger one. The fact, assuming it's true, that Omar was on the island "at the same time" that Faraday was sending the message doesn't mean anything. In relativistic physics, the idea of simultaneity is meaningless.

Exactly. Except for anything following the exact 305 degree corridor, there are unpredictable, and sometimes sizable time fluctuations. The radio channel between Faraday and Omar seemingly went through a good-sized offset. The doctor's body went through an even larger one. The fact, assuming it's true, that Omar was on the island "at the same time" that Faraday was sending the message doesn't mean anything. In relativistic physics, the idea of simultaneity is meaningless.

Wow! Are you suggesting that the lack of a delay when they communicate is similar to the effect in the movie Frequency where he talks to his dad in the past? That would be a cool concept indeed. I have been thinking along different lines from that, but, that does make sense to me if that is what you are saying here.

Except for anything following the exact 305 degree corridor, there are unpredictable, and sometimes sizable time fluctuations.
That's exactly what is bothering me about the whole thing. I do believe the writers keep track of all the time travel aspects of the show, but on the other hand it feels like the time differences always seems to be changing in exactly the way the writers need them to be.

If the explanation for this "phenomenon" turns out to be that time differences fluctuate always differently and unpredictably when going from and to the island, then that would effectively mean that there is no system to the whole thing whatsoever. No clear set of rules means, that the writers are just jerkin' us off because they can. And that's just not right.

But I hope I'm wrong about that.

I don't think the messages via phone are being affected by the time dilation. If they were, wouldn't there be a lag between replies? The radio waves are going out in all directions including the correct direction of bearing 305. Its the items like the rocket and Doc's body that get time dilated by traveling via the wrong bearing.

Notice these events when you re watch. It is daytime when these events start. Captain Gault goes to help Sayid and Des by sending Omar down to the armory. As Omar walks away leaving Gault in charge of Sayid and Des, he takes out his phone and hears the Morse code message from Faraday. The message was sent a couple of days earlier before Jack had his surgery. Now, if I am right about the radio messages being in real time, then this whole freighter scene actually takes place two days earlier. It just distorts our (the viewer) perception because these events should have occurred two episodes ago. The Captain tells Sayid he will meet him in 10 minutes to give him the dinghy. When he meets Sayid, it is still daylight. Its still daytime as Sayid drives off. A short time later, the Mercs meet up on deck and kill Gault and Doc. They leave via helicopter at night time. Doc's body beats them to the island by two days. This we know because when Lapidus drops the new phone on camp Lostie, the Doc had done been washed ashore one or two days ago during the morning of the surgery day with Vincent barking and all. This shows us that while on the freighter, you can talk real time to the island, but the travel to and from the island is where time dilation actually occurs. This also makes me think that one or two days elapsed from when the helicopter launched this last time and when they actually arrived over the Losties.

Since we have no correlation of time between the events surrounding Locke, Ben, and Hugo, we don't know if they have already begun moving the island in time yet or not. This would change the departure/arrival time of travelers back and forth from the island. It might also change the approach bearing.

What do you think?

Agreed about radio messages. We have seen communications repeatedly going in real time (Daniel talking to Des as he goes through conscious jumping, Daniel's rocket experiment, Naomi's sister message, etc).

But we do have 1 correlation surrounding Locke and co - Sawyer's hiking group. Sawyer's group leaves Locke one night, hikes throughout the next day, and presumably arrives at the beach the next day. As such, Locke presumably finds Jacob's cabin the same night Claire wanders off.

But I still can't make sense of the chronology on island, let alone off island. :huh:

I checked the transcript for Ji Yeon, Lapidus and Keamy left in the chopper before Regina jumped.

(Ray leads Desmond and Sayid on deck)
SAYID: Where's the helicopter?
RAY: Lapidus is running an errand.
SAYID: What kind of errand?
RAY: I'm a doctor. I don't know where he's going.
SAYID: Did he go to the island?
RAY: You know anywhere else he could land?
(Desmond notices Regina, as she walks covered in chains)


Regarding the sat phone, DL/CC have said that the Sat phones work in real-time with no delay. I don't know why, but they do. Radio frequencies and telegraphs they said would be affected by the time difference but not the Sat phones.

So was this portion a FB (?) of the return of the heli from Lapidus' "errand"? This isn't the same injured man that was....erm.....gutted by the "black pillar of smoke". (Same sequence that Omar received the morse code message which happens moments later.)

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h220/seaque/FT2011Day.jpg

So was this portion a FB (?) of the return of the heli from Lapidus' "errand"? This isn't the same injured man that was....erm.....gutted by the "black pillar of smoke". (Same sequence that Omar received the morse code message which happens moments later.)

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h220/seaque/FT2011Day.jpg


I had the same thought here. It seemed like they brought the first injured man off the helicopter at night. The he died. And then they bring another guy off the helicopter during the day. I really need to watch SNBH to see if there was more than one guy seriously injured because it seems like there was only one.

Wow! Are you suggesting that the lack of a delay when they communicate is similar to the effect in the movie Frequency where he talks to his dad in the past? That would be a cool concept indeed. I have been thinking along different lines from that, but, that does make sense to me if that is what you are saying here.
Yes. That is what I'm saying. In fact, any sort of wave refraction or space-time bending, would have to work that way. If light waves, sound waves, gravity waves, or (if they were to exist) time waves, are refracted, or bent, so that they travel from you to whatever unexpected destination X, any waves traveling back from X in the opposite direction, in the same conditions, would have to bend back along the same path to you. It's a familiar concept in regards to space, but it should have to apply to time as well.
100%
That's exactly what is bothering me about the whole thing. I do believe the writers keep track of all the time travel aspects of the show, but on the other hand it feels like the time differences always seems to be changing in exactly the way the writers need them to be.

If the explanation for this "phenomenon" turns out to be that time differences fluctuate always differently and unpredictably when going from and to the island, then that would effectively mean that there is no system to the whole thing whatsoever. No clear set of rules means, that the writers are just jerkin' us off because they can. And that's just not right.

But I hope I'm wrong about that.

I don't quite get where you're coming from on that. The earth's atmosphere, for example, is continuously fluctuating, and for the most part unpredictable, and yet it operates by a set of reasonably well-understood rules. I anticipate the island's "space-time weather patterns" to be something similar. It would seem more realistic to me, especially if it's a natural phenomenon, for it to be at least as complex and unpredictable as something like the weather system.

But at this point it's a little bit of inference and a whole lot of speculation. What we DO know about it are the specific rules: bearing 305 (and possibly 325) are free from any effects; most other outbound headings lead you in a circle; Headings close to 305 but not exact take you out, but with time effects and other side-effects;
100%
Agreed about radio messages. We have seen communications repeatedly going in real time (Daniel talking to Des as he goes through conscious jumping, Daniel's rocket experiment, Naomi's sister message, etc).

Again, just because people are talking in real time, doesn't imply that they're not talking across a "refraction" in time, and there is actually an offset between them. Now if Darlton said the sat phones are unaffected, which I didn't remember them saying, then that's good enough for me. But it seemed clear that Daniel's "tone squelch" and the immediate reply from Omar was going on "in real time" across such a time refraction, as Omar was in daytime, and Daniel was in nighttime.
100%
I had the same thought here. It seemed like they brought the first injured man off the helicopter at night. The he died. And then they bring another guy off the helicopter during the day. I really need to watch SNBH to see if there was more than one guy seriously injured because it seems like there was only one.
It is very confusing, the way they did it. I watched the two scenes a couple more times. What it looks like to me is there is only one injured man. They get him out of the helicopter and onto the liter, and put him down next to the helicopter at night, and the doctor gets to work on him right there. He works on him right there next to the chopper until morning, with Sayid and Desmond looking on. In the morning, Frank tells Gault and Keamy that he has died, and then what we see is his body being taken inside on the liter past Desmond and Sayid, with the doctor still next to the chopper. So, even though Desmond calls him "that injured man", I think he is the dead man that frank referred to, and the only one who got seriously injured.

Anyone who thinks the writers have made a mistake because we saw the doctors body wash ashore prior to when we saw his throat slit...well, thats nuts! These writers are obviously smarter than that....I believe the time line is an important part of the plot and will be revealed accordingly...I, for one, am enjoying trying to figure it out, and have yet to, and will be more than willing to wait for the writers to reveal it in their good time....

What's wrong with this picture?

This is how Lostpedia depicts the timeline. [ http://lostpedia.com/wiki/Timeline:December_2004 ]

Note: I edited out the info not relating to our discussion.

Something is out of wack. Let's look at it together and see if we can figure it all out.

I realize this is a long post but, sometimes it helps to see everything laid out.

Day 94 - Friday, December 24, 2004 (Christmas Eve)

"The Constant"

* Frank, Desmond and Sayid arrive on the freighter at mid-day.
* Daniel, against Charlotte's warning, tells Jack and Juliet that their perception of time may not be entirely accurate.
* Sayid contacts Jack on the Island, using Frank's satellite phone.
* Daniel speaks to Desmond on the satellite phone and gives him directions for how to deal with the "side-effects" of the island he is experiencing.

* Minkowski is unable to cope with the side-effects of the Island, dying as a result.

* After Sayid repairs the freighter's communications equipment, Desmond makes contact with Penelope.

Day 95 - Saturday, December 25, 2004 (Christmas Day)

"The Other Woman"

* (off-camera) The people at the Barracks share a rabbit dinner for Christmas.

Day 96 - Sunday, December 26, 2004

"Ji Yeon"

* (off-camera) Frank transports Keamy and his mercenaries to the island.

* Desmond and Sayid awaken on the Freighter to a note saying "Don't Trust the Captain".

* Sayid and Desmond witness Regina's suicide and confront the captain, who expresses his need to find Ben.

* Desmond and Sayid meet Kevin Johnson (Michael Dawson).

"Meet Kevin Johnson"

* Locke holds a meeting at the Barracks. Locke, Ben and Miles share a variety of information with the rest of the group.
* Ben tells Alex, Karl and Rousseau to find safety at The Temple.
* Captain Gault stops crew members attempting to leave the Freighter.

Day 97 - Monday, December 27, 2004

"Meet Kevin Johnson"

* Sayid and Desmond confront Michael, who tells them the story of how he came to be Kevin Johnson.
* Sayid reveals Michael's identity to Captain Gault.
* On the way to the Temple, Danielle, Alex and Karl are ambushed by Keamy and his mercenaries. Rousseau and Karl are shot before Alex surrenders.

"The Shape of Things to Come"

* Ray's body washes ashore.
* Keamy forces Alex to disable the sonic fence, but doing so issues a panic code that alerts the Barracks.
* The Barracks comes under assault by the mercenaries. Four members of Locke's camp are killed. Claire's house is destroyed with an RPG, but Sawyer rescues her from the wreckage.

* Daniel transmits a Morse Code message to the freighter and he lies about the message. Bernard catches him in the lie.

Day 98 - Tuesday, December 28, 2004

"Something Nice Back Home"

* Sawyer, Claire, and Miles encounter Frank, and hide from Keamy.

"Cabin Fever"

* Keamy, Frank, and the mercenaries return to the freighter at night. Keamy learns that Michael is the spy and tries to kill him, in vain.

Day 99 - Wednesday, December 29, 2004

"Something Nice Back Home"

* Sawyer finds Aaron alone in the jungle.

"Cabin Fever"

* Gault allows Sayid and Desmond to return to the island on a zodiac raft. Desmond refuses to go, but Sayid sails to the beach.
* Keamy kills Ray and Gault in an effort to make Frank pilot the helicopter back to the island; Frank finally complies.
* Frank throws the satellite phone for survivors to find at the beach. Jack finds it.

Like I said - What's wrong with this picture?

As Omar walks away leaving Gault in charge of Sayid and Des, he takes out his phone and hears the Morse code message from Faraday. The message was sent a couple of days earlier before Jack had his surgery. Now, if I am right about the radio messages being in real time, then this whole freighter scene actually takes place two days earlier.Except the mercenaries were on the island two days earlier. The wouldn't have been on the freighter to answer the message.

But there is another possibility: Daniel sent a second message, two days later, with details about the doctor's death. When he sends his first message, he simply asks "What happened to the Doctor?" (according to him).

According to the calendars, at the same time Desmond is talking to Daniel on the phone it is 12.24.04 for Desmond on the frieghter and 12.26.04 for Daniel on the island... which means the island is about 2 days ahead of the frieghter in time... also traveling between is 20 minutes from island to freighter but time dilation makes it seem a day or more (can't remember what Jack said) but there is also specualtion that one day on the island is only equal to 23 hours because of various things...

you guys have got to read the general theories section more often,,, :).

If you go back to the day 94 and make the days match up two days off, does it work I wonder...

The explaination is, if they don't follow 305, they will time travel. It could be fowards or backwards. It doesn't make much sense.

Exactly. Except for anything following the exact 305 degree corridor, there are unpredictable, and sometimes sizable time fluctuations. The radio channel between Faraday and Omar seemingly went through a good-sized offset. The doctor's body went through an even larger one. The fact, assuming it's true, that Omar was on the island "at the same time" that Faraday was sending the message doesn't mean anything. In relativistic physics, the idea of simultaneity is meaningless.
The point is, Omar presumably had the radio on him while he was running through the jungle. If Daniel send the message right then, Omar would have received it right then since Daniel and Omar were both in the same spacetime frame (the Island). It makes no sense for Omar to not receive it until he gets back to the ship.

And you're mistaken: relativity doesn't make simultaneity "meaningless", just a lot more complicated.

They've already explained this. Different bearings toward the island produce different results in terms of "when" you get there. It's not that the body of the doctor got there before he died, it's that it went back in time. The specific bearing the rocket/helicopter took was about a thirty minutes delay.

Of course, this is only how I understand it. It's the kind of show where something like this can't bother you. It shouldn't, anyway. Time travel, teleportation, and now even reincarnation are apart of its universe, so give them some leeway. It'll come back and explain itself. They're smart, clever guys.

The point is, Omar presumably had the radio on him while he was running through the jungle. If Daniel send the message right then, Omar would have received it right then since Daniel and Omar were both in the same spacetime frame (the Island). It makes no sense for Omar to not receive it until he gets back to the ship.

And you're mistaken: relativity doesn't make simultaneity "meaningless", just a lot more complicated.


Yeah, this time travel stuff is becoming a real problem. It's easy to dismiss the errors by just saying, "the effects are different."I didn't even realize that Omar was already in the jungle when Daniel sent the message. The two phones would communicate directly with each other, so there is no reason as to why Omar should have recieved it when he got back to the Freighter.

My own take on it was that when Sayid and Desmond left for the Island, it was December 22. They get to the Freighter on December 24th. This implies that the Island is in the past, otherwise, they would have arrived before they even left. Sayid and Desmond did not follow the correct heading, so they physically time traveled.

The Doc washes up on the Island on December 27th, but he's killed on December 29th. This would imply that the Island is several days in the future. The Doc's body washes ashore coming in on a random heading, so it physically time travels as well.

Saying that the effects are random is the only way to explain something like this. Unfortunately, it's a weak explanation. If that were the case, why didn't the 815, which I doubt was coming in on the appropriate heading, time travel some days into the past or the future? Same goes for anything else that's come to the Island on the wrong heading.

My problem with this time traveling is that they aren't even sticking to one time difference. The time difference is just jumping around and is making the story extremely sticky.

The point is, Omar presumably had the radio on him while he was running through the jungle. If Daniel send the message right then, Omar would have received it right then since Daniel and Omar were both in the same spacetime frame (the Island). It makes no sense for Omar to not receive it until he gets back to the ship.
Yes, in that scenario he should have picked it up twice, effectively "passing" the signal by taking the 305 corridor. That assumes that the island constitutes a single reference frame, which I'm not sure is true. But assuming it is, I don't think Omar would have heard the signal over the smoke monster that was attacking him at the time.

And you're mistaken: relativity doesn't make simultaneity "meaningless", just a lot more complicated.
Events A and B can only be said to be simultaneous from a given reference frame. In another reference from A happens before B, and in a third B happens before A. Therefore the concept of simultaneity as an absolute doesn't exist.

Yes, in that scenario he should have picked it up twice, effectively "passing" the signal by taking the 305 corridor. That assumes that the island constitutes a single reference frame, which I'm not sure is true. But assuming it is, I don't think Omar would have heard the signal over the smoke monster that was attacking him at the time.


You're saying that Omar got Daniel's message just as the smoke monster was attacking him? That's pretty convenient.

I get what you are saying, but what about the response that Daniel recieves? It had to have been either Omar or the Freighter. It'd make sense if it was Omar because the response was recieved almost immediately. If it was the Freighter, that would indicate that the morse code message was not effected by the time distortion.

I guess Omar could have responded to the Morse code message off-screen, but since they didn't show it, I'd say that it didn't happen. If that were the case though, it was awful convenient that the time distortion worked in a way that allowed Faraday to get a response almost immediately.

From what I've deduced, it seems that the radio signals ARE affected by the time shift. Daniel sends a message about the doctor. The waves travel into the future and there is, effectively, a conversation between Past Daniel and Future Omar, though to each of them, it seems to be occurring at the same time.

Likewise, with the rocket experiment, Past Daniel talks to Future Regina (perhaps 31 minutes into the future). Future Regina sends the rocket, landing at the right time to her, but because Daniel's in the past, it would take the rocket longer (having been sent a lot later than he thought).

I guess Omar could have responded to the Morse code message off-screen, but since they didn't show it, I'd say that it didn't happen.Haha! That's right, nothing happens off-screen on Lost. I mean, expecting us to deduce something like that would be unthinkable!

Anyway, I think the simplest explanation would be it was a different message. Omar knew more about the Doctor (throat cut) than Daniel originally sent thru his message in "The Shape of Things to Come."

Either way, I bet we never hear of it again...

The explaination is, if they don't follow 305, they will time travel. It could be fowards or backwards. It doesn't make much sense.
Think of it as an area of temporal turbulence. 305 is like the eye of the storm.
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You're saying that Omar got Daniel's message just as the smoke monster was attacking him? That's pretty convenient.
Convenient or not, that's when the message was sent. Ben walks over to say goodbye to Alex as the monster is still attacking, and then they cut to him sending the message.

I get what you are saying, but what about the response that Daniel recieves? It had to have been either Omar or the Freighter. It'd make sense if it was Omar because the response was recieved almost immediately. If it was the Freighter, that would indicate that the morse code message was not effected by the time distortion.

I guess Omar could have responded to the Morse code message off-screen, but since they didn't show it, I'd say that it didn't happen. If that were the case though, it was awful convenient that the time distortion worked in a way that allowed Faraday to get a response almost immediately.

I don't think I'm really following what you're saying. We saw Omar taking out the radio and listening to the message as he walked, when he was on the freighter. I think the clear implication is that he's the one who tapped back a response.

It's not that something unusual happened for Faraday to get an immediate response. It would always be that way. I think the time shift is best though of like temporal refraction, similar to the way that light waves or sound waves refract -- always symmetrical in both directions. If a message from the island to the boat is shifting forward x hours at a given moment, then a signal from the boat to the island along the same path would be shifting backwards x hours at the same time. So the responses would be in real time.
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According to the calendars, at the same time Desmond is talking to Daniel on the phone it is 12.24.04 for Desmond on the frieghter and 12.26.04 for Daniel on the island...
What calendars? The only calendar was on the boat. My impression is that the radios, when working properly, somehow get around any time shift. So I think that Desmond and Daniel were both talking on the 24th. And I think that coincides with the date they told us it was in the enhanced episode of eggtown.

But if they HAD been talking over a time offset, like with Daniel's telegraph, it really changes the meaning of the phrase at the same time. Experientially, they would be wont to say, they were talking at the same time, however, you can't say that at the same time that it was 12/24 on the boat, it was 12/26 on the island, because by definition, at the same time it was 12/24 on the boat, it was 12/24 on the island. That's what at the same time means.

also traveling between is 20 minutes from island to freighter but time dilation makes it seem a day or more (can't remember what Jack said) but there is also specualtion that one day on the island is only equal to 23 hours because of various things...
That was only the one trip, where the helicopter got knocked off course and Desmond has his little episode. My impression is definitely that in the subsequent trips, they were getting to their destination in roughly the time that would be expected from the length of the trip.

Haha! That's right, nothing happens off-screen on Lost. I mean, expecting us to deduce something like that would be unthinkable!



Showing Omar replying, even if it is for a few seconds, would go a long way. That seems more important than mundane things like Kate and Jack walking back to the beach that they don't show us.

Think of it as an area of temporal turbulence. 305 is like the eye of the storm.
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I don't think I'm really following what you're saying. We saw Omar taking out the radio and listening to the message as he walked, when he was on the freighter. I think the clear implication is that he's the one who tapped back a response.

It's not that something unusual happened for Faraday to get an immediate response. It would always be that way. I think the time shift is best though of like temporal refraction, similar to the way that light waves or sound waves refract -- always symmetrical in both directions. If a message from the island to the boat is shifting forward x hours at a given moment, then a signal from the boat to the island along the same path would be shifting backwards x hours at the same time. So the responses would be in real time.

That could be, but to me, it seems like it is negating the random nature of the time distortion. If Faraday's message was effected by the distortion like traveling to and from the Island is, I'd expect that it would also be random. There wouldn't be a standard 24 delay for all messages. Omar's response would have probably arrived either before or sometime after Faraday sent his message. If it is a standard effect then it would mean that all messages sent from the Island are jumping into the future, while all messages sent from the boat are jumping into the past.

I was also wondering this. How does Ben's conversation with Michael fit into all of this? They clearly weren't using the SAT phones which are supposed to be uneffected by the temporal distortion, yet there didn't seem to be a delay. Lostpedia has their conversation taking place sometime between Day 77 to Day 81, so I guess it could be possible that Ben was talking with Michael on Day 77 on the Island but Day 78 on the Freighter.

I found this interview with Damon and Carlton:

http://www.popularmechanics.com/blogs/science_news/4260693.html

DL: Here's the scoop for Popular Mechanics: According to the rules of our show, a communication between sat phones is not affected by temporal distortion, but if you were to send a radio broadcast and/or a telegraph message, it would be affected by temporal distortion. That's the scoop for Popular Mechanics and Popular Mechanics only, and it will make a lot more sense after you've seen the first episode back.

The point is, Omar presumably had the radio on him while he was running through the jungle. If Daniel send the message right then, Omar would have received it right then since Daniel and Omar were both in the same spacetime frame (the Island). It makes no sense for Omar to not receive it until he gets back to the ship.

And you're mistaken: relativity doesn't make simultaneity "meaningless", just a lot more complicated.

Thats assuming that the 2 scenes on the island are happening at the same time.

I wish Faraday had had two missiles fired at two different bearings.

Maybe the island time is in front? Thats what I was thinking when I saw the Dr and the Morse Code, you go back in time by a day or so when you go to the freighter?

I don't know, its brain frying, its why i don't always like people messing with time.

This is what I initially thought... the island must be two days in the future from the time that the freighter is experiencing...

Daniel calls a day after Doc's throat was slit and it arrives at the freighter the day before...

Chopper leaves with Des and Sayid and it arrives "two days earlier" to the freighter... but instead of actually arriving two days earlier, it still arrives the same day but is two days later on the island.



Also, how do you know the message that was received on the ship was from the same transmission Faraday sent at the time we saw? Why couldn't the radio communication have taken place twice at different times, just to make it appear the sequence of events was screwy?

Robert

Well, because Omar had received the transmission asking about the Doc before his throat was slit even though he would never have had a reason to ask about the Doc unless he had already washed up on shore dead...

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Saying that the effects are random is the only way to explain something like this. Unfortunately, it's a weak explanation. If that were the case, why didn't the 815, which I doubt was coming in on the appropriate heading, time travel some days into the past or the future? Same goes for anything else that's come to the Island on the wrong heading.
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Maybe 815 did jump a few days forward or backward when arriving... how are we to know? I mean, if Des and Sayid left the island on what they thought was the "22nd" and arrived on what was really the "24th", maybe it was really the 24th when they left to begin with... and for that matter, maybe it was then the 26th on the island.

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On a different note...
To me, it seems as if going to the island makes you jump a few days into the future (a la the Doc arriving there before he was killed). However, traveling from the island keeps time the same from your own perspective (a la Sayid leaving on the chopper) while it would advance on the island by two days. I just think that while things happen on the freighter (and presumably elsewhere in the world), the island is always two days in the future.

What does that mean? Well, I can see why anyone and everyone would want control of the island... imagine knowing what's going to happen throughout the rest of the world two days before it does...

This is what I initially thought... the island must be two days in the future from the time that the freighter is experiencing...

Daniel calls a day after Doc's throat was slit and it arrives at the freighter the day before...

Chopper leaves with Des and Sayid and it arrives "two days earlier" to the freighter... but instead of actually arriving two days earlier, it still arrives the same day but is two days later on the island.

That's not exactly correct. The chopper arrives on the Freighter on the same day that Sayid makes contact with Jack, December 24th. This would imply that they time traveled 2 days into the future. The Doc time traveled 2 days into the past.

Maybe 815 did jump a few days forward or backward when arriving... how are we to know? I mean, if Des and Sayid left the island on what they thought was the "22nd" and arrived on what was really the "24th", maybe it was really the 24th when they left to begin with... and for that matter, maybe it was then the 26th on the island.

I don't think that it did. The printout from the Pearl read "922044:16 SYSTEM FAILURE SYSTEM FAILURE." This means that the plane crash happened on the Island on the same day as it did in the real world. So why were they exempt from the time distortion? The Hatch detonation is the only thing I can think of.

There is a time difference because apparently the plane took off at 2:15 pm Sydney time, yet the printout says it happened at 4:16. This can't be because they were flying East for 6 hours then they spent 2 hours turning back. That would place the crash at around 10pm Sydney time. This has to be a mistake by the production team because if they flew for 8 hours before they crash, we wouldn't have seen daylight coming in the plane's windows prior to the crash.

That's not exactly correct. The chopper arrives on the Freighter on the same day that Sayid makes contact with Jack, December 24th. This would imply that they time traveled 2 days into the future. The Doc time traveled 2 days into the past.


I don't agree with the Doc's body traveling into the past... "Past" is relative to who you're speaking to, though. From the freighter's perspective, Daniel was two days (or whatever period of time) into the future. From the island's perspective, the only one that would have been in the "past" was the freighter and its events...

That could be, but to me, it seems like it is negating the random nature of the time distortion. If Faraday's message was effected by the distortion like traveling to and from the Island is, I'd expect that it would also be random. There wouldn't be a standard 24 delay for all messages. Omar's response would have probably arrived either before or sometime after Faraday sent his message. If it is a standard effect then it would mean that all messages sent from the Island are jumping into the future, while all messages sent from the boat are jumping into the past.
No, I don't think it's any standard fixed delay. But my point is, if it follows the laws of refraction, then if the time offset in a transmission from from point A at time t arrives at point B at time t+X, then a transmission from point B at time t+X should be arrive at point A at time t, even though X is subject to continuous change. In other words, regardless of the time shift at that time, it should be an equal and opposite time shift. So they should always be able to give instant replies.

I was also wondering this. How does Ben's conversation with Michael fit into all of this? They clearly weren't using the SAT phones which are supposed to be uneffected by the temporal distortion, yet there didn't seem to be a delay. Lostpedia has their conversation taking place sometime between Day 77 to Day 81, so I guess it could be possible that Ben was talking with Michael on Day 77 on the Island but Day 78 on the Freighter.
Yes, by my thinking, that conversation was probably shifted by some amount across time, though I don't think that has any significance for the story. But again, the shift would never cause a perceptible delay, since it's equal and opposite.

I'm still trying to think of a really clear analogy, and this isn't it, but.... Say you're under water, and you have a mirror, and I'm on a dock above you trying to shine a laser on you. At the surface of the water, the laser will bend at an angle. And since there are waves, the angle at which it bends is going to be changing. But at any time that I manage to hit you with the laser, if you use your mirror to reflect it directly back in the direction it came from, it will travel back to the surface, and then bend back in the exact opposite direction and come back and hit me. And that will always be true no matter how much or little, or even in which direction the refraction is making it bend.

(Of course, with the "time refraction" it can't be changing as fast as waves on the surface of water, or they couldn't sustain the communication -- so I figure it fluctuates more like the tides or the weather.)

No, I don't think it's any standard fixed delay. But my point is, if it follows the laws of refraction, then if the time offset in a transmission from from point A at time t arrives at point B at time t+X, then a transmission from point B at time t+X should be arrive at point A at time t, even though X is subject to continuous change. In other words, regardless of the time shift at that time, it should be an equal and opposite time shift. So they should always be able to give instant replies.

I don't quite follow you here. If Faraday (point A) sent a message to the Freighter (Point B)at 8:00 pm December 27th (Time t) it gets there there 48 hours later (X). For the Freighter's message to arrive at Time t, that message would have the equation T+X-X. That would make me think that there is a standard time distortion (X) has a constant value, albeit positive from point A and negative from point B.

But if X is always changing, which seems to be the case when people or bodies travel to and from the Island, there can't be an equal and opposite time shift. X could be anything in the second equation. Could be -48 hours, +3 hours, or whatever, depending on how much it changes, That would mean that the message from the Freigther could have arrived anytime. For communication to be possible, the change in X would always have to have the equal and opposite value and be so minute that people wouldn't register it. In addition, there could be no delay in responding to the message like Omar did, otherwise point A could theoretically get a response even before they sent their message.


Yes, by my thinking, that conversation was probably shifted by some amount across time, though I don't think that has any significance for the story. But again, the shift would never cause a perceptible delay, since it's equal and opposite.

I'm still trying to think of a really clear analogy, and this isn't it, but.... Say you're under water, and you have a mirror, and I'm on a dock above you trying to shine a laser on you. At the surface of the water, the laser will bend at an angle. And since there are waves, the angle at which it bends is going to be changing. But at any time that I manage to hit you with the laser, if you use your mirror to reflect it directly back in the direction it came from, it will travel back to the surface, and then bend back in the exact opposite direction and come back and hit me. And that will always be true no matter how much or little, or even in which direction the refraction is making it bend.

That's a good analogy. The only thing I can see that doesn't apply is that the reflected laser beam is still the same beam of light that you hit me with on the dock. With radio communication, there are always two signals. I could get a message from you and respond hours later. In the meantime X's value would have changed.


(Of course, with the "time refraction" it can't be changing as fast as waves on the surface of water, or they couldn't sustain the communication -- so I figure it fluctuates more like the tides or the weather.)

I don't know if I agree with you on this part given what we've seen with actual objects traveling to and from the Island. The rocket was transported into the future by a 30 minutes. The same day Sayid and Desmond leave the Island and jump two days into the future. Later on, the doc's body washes ashore, meaning that it jumped more than two days into the past. This seems to be a random effect. It'll be interesting to see when Sayid arrives at the Island. Too bad I won't be able to see that episode some days after it airs.