Sawyer & Kate Are Meant To Raise Aaron [Archive] - { Flicks N Shows | Fringe Division

Sawyers Mojito

05-09-2008, 12:50 AM

I dont ever get the whole Aaron is meant to be raised by blah blah so that Means Skate YAY we win They lose.

:rolleyes:

can we please please please take a tiny break from shippery stuff?

Last week was bad enough.

Aaron is SUPPOSED to be raised By Claire. Thats Just a Fact.

Maybe Sawyer too ' He's Where He's supposed to Be' Idk but I'm not gonna be so bold to say that automatically = Skate. I think the main point is Claire was meant to be with Christian at the moment and Aaron wouldn't be safe there.

I figure Sawyer gives Aaron to Kate for safe guarding and she gets shuffled onto the freighter with him. In upcoming Episodes, or Miles Steals him and gives him to Kate.

I do not believe she <kate> was meant to raise Aaron.

I think speculating on who is raising Aaron and the affects are great but to proclaim it means Skate is seriously annoying to me. We don't know anything and I think it would be awesome if we could step back and try to view it objectively.

Aaron is not meant to be raised by Jack and Possible Kate

Hurley's 'You're' could be plural. So I wont make any conclusions until I see more show.
100%
So Sawyer is the pharoah's daughter's nursemaid? :rolleyes:
:roflmao::roflmao::lol2::lol2::clapping::clapping: :clapping::biglaugh::biglaugh::rotflmao2::105::ntw orthy::ntworthy:

Genius.

gantos69

05-09-2008, 12:54 AM

I completly agree with the first post- that Aaron is supposed to be with Sawyer and Kate.
That he leaves the island with Kate, and Sawyer gets left behind, undoubtably put a monkey wrench in the island's/Jacob's plans. Things to have a tendency to course correct though- so I think we will see these three back together before all is said and done.

Who knows, Sawyer+Kate= Adam+Eve, and the son they raised together becomes our spiritual leader Jacob? Just a thought.

The Kat

05-09-2008, 12:54 AM

Maybe Sawyer & Kate are not meant to raise Aaron, but you can't ignore the irony of the situation. Sawyer & Kate having a pregnancy scare earlier this season and Sawyer asking "What would we do with a baby?" Now Sawyer finds himself protecting Aaron and being the one who gives him to Kate, who will then take him off the island and raise him as her own.

shyguy

05-09-2008, 12:55 AM

Hopefully Claire will be able to get her baby back from the baby stealer by the end of the show.

ked

05-09-2008, 12:56 AM

I don't think that Kate steals Aaron...

But I also really hope that Claire and Aaron are re-united. Remember that scene from "Maternity Leave" where she says "You're mine, and I love you"? It's just... sad...

Sawyers Mojito

05-09-2008, 12:57 AM

Hopefully Claire will be able to get her baby back from the baby stealer by the end of the show.
:glomp:

Best.Post.Of.The.Night.

lulinha_k

05-09-2008, 12:57 AM

Just like the Last season´s irony of Kate having a pregnancy scare in "I Do" and Sawyer having a child in "Every Man For Himself" because OMG Kate is so pregnant with Sawyer´s baby? :rolleyes:

Islandtracker

05-09-2008, 01:01 AM

Lovey

05-09-2008, 01:02 AM

Oh goodness... :rolleyes: Transparent, I tell you.

So Sawyer isnt meant to raise his actual daughter, but the child of someone else who is of NO relation, even though in S1 we were told he must be raised by his mother.

Last I recalled, Jack was the child's uncle, so if a blood relative isn't supposed to raise him, I doubt a couple of criminals are. Just sayin'.

I'm sure Aaron is where he is supposed to be because he is important and needs to be kept safe. Sometimes things don't have double meanings. Surprising, I know.

Sawyers Mojito

05-09-2008, 01:04 AM

lol, okiee

Sunday School Lesson.

Adam & Eve :

Have Cain and Able (and Seth)

Cain Murdered Able out of Jealousy (the First Murder) He is cursed by God and chased into the desert.

JACOB was the son of Issac (the Son of Abaraham who he longed for so very long and was aksed to sacrifice upon having him.)

Jacob had 12 sons. (13 w/ Benjamin)

But before He had his Sons God sent an angel to wrestle with him, and Changed his Name from Jacob ' The Deceiver ' to Israel. The Founder if you will of the nation. His 12 Sons, the 12 Tribes.

There For I really don't think we should Read too much into Lost's Jacob Biblically because he wasn't a spiritual leader, he was a nation.

He moved to Egypt in the land of Goshen where his Son Joseph ruled Second only to Pharaoh. Years passed and The Egyptians needed laborers and made Slaves of the Hebrews (Israelites) Which eventually Led to Moses and the emancipation of the Israelites from Egypt.

mdfostachild

05-09-2008, 01:06 AM

I recall the Australian Psychic in season 1 being scared from whatever he saw in Claire's and/or Aaron's future. He was adament that Claire must not give Aaron up for adoption and stressed that Claire must raise Aaron. Didn't the Psychic also give her some of the information on the Oceanic flight 815?

Nevertheless, I think that it fair to say that the Psychic and Christian Shepard disagree as to who should raise Aaron? Otherwise, Christian would not have lured Claire away and abandon Aaron.

The two points I am struggling to explain is why is Christian and the Psychic have differing opinions and what's the significance of it?:eek2:

Bella

05-09-2008, 01:06 AM

Why does everyone always assume that Kate stole Aaron?

This consistently boggles the mind.

Lovey

05-09-2008, 01:10 AM

Why does everyone always assume that Kate stole Aaron?

This consistently boggles the mind.

^^ITA. I think its fitting she ends up with him as she is the one who helped bring him into the world. What else was she supposed to do, run with him head first into danger? Like any of the '06 would just let her steal him.

The Kat

05-09-2008, 01:12 AM

I have no words only faces--------> :lol: :confused: :lol::confused: :lol: :confused:

Sometimes I wonder if everyone watches the same show I do. :rolleyes:

How can you ignore the symbolism of Sawyer giving a child to Kate?

Bella

05-09-2008, 01:13 AM

Like any of the '06 would just let her steal him.

Exactly, Lovey.

This is one of the most absurd theories I've heard in this fandom -- which is saying a lot.

rove3

05-09-2008, 01:20 AM

I want to know why there seems to be a discrepancy b/t what the psychic said and what Christian is saying. If Aaron is where he is supposed to be and we assume that means he is in a position to be rescued then that does not make sense. Claire, who is supposed to be the only one who can raise him, was already on her way to the beach.

Cardielost

05-09-2008, 01:20 AM

Claire essentially tells Locke that she's cool being separated from her baby--whom she left alone in the jungle. So whether she knows that it's the will of a benevolent power that he leave and she stay behind, or whether she's dead and can't leave the island, or whatever explanation there is for the Claire we saw, she is relinquishing custody of Aaron in hopes of him getting off the island, knowing that she is safe and he is not, and whomever takes over for her is not "stealing" him.

Cardie

Foxylover

05-09-2008, 01:29 AM

So Sawyer is the pharoah's daughter's nursemaid? :rolleyes:

:105: :rotflmao: :biglaugh: :rotflmao2:

Brilliant! :biggrin:

archangel1772

05-09-2008, 01:36 AM

IDK, it's a long stretch from "Aaron is where he needs to be" to "Kate and Sawyer are meant to raise Aaron". I agree with the people who believe no one but Claire is supposed to raise Aaron. I feel that, ultimately, Claire and Aaron have to be reunited.

gantos69

05-09-2008, 01:41 AM

If Clair IS dead- which is a distinct possibility at this point, someone is going to have to raise the baby. The fact that Sawyer is discovering his fatherly instincts and Jack and Kate are doomed to be apart leads me to speculate that Sawyer and Kate are meant to be together when the O6 eventually return to the island. I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility that little turnup-head ends up being of mythical signifigance seeing as how he is the first child born on the island in quite some time. And with the introduction of time travel it is a possibillity that the Adam and Eve skeletons are current losties that ended up wondering to the past and starting that group of misfits we call the hostiles. As I said- it's just a theory involving Sawyer and Kate being together.

rabidranger

05-09-2008, 01:41 AM

I doubt Aaron was ever supposed to leave the Island. It's pretty apparent that the O6 aren't meant to return to the outside world. All hell breaks loose.

ZoeWashburne

05-09-2008, 01:47 AM

Islandtracker

05-09-2008, 01:49 AM

Sawyers Mojito

05-09-2008, 01:51 AM

shyguy

05-09-2008, 01:56 AM

The guy later admitted that he wasn't psychic. I still think Claire is the one that needs to raise Aaron, and I'm really disappointed that Kate now has Aaron.

rove3

05-09-2008, 01:59 AM

Just for reference:

MALKIN: It is crucial that you, yourself, raise this child.
CLAIRE: You mean with Thomas? Is he..
MALKIN: The father of this child will play no part in it's life, nor yours.
CLAIRE: So what exactly are you saying?
MALKIN: This child parented by anyone else, anyone other than you -- danger surrounds this baby. . .
CLAIRE: Danger?
MALKIN: Your nature, your spirit, your goodness, must be an influence in the development of this child.
CLAIRE: If Thomas and I don't get back together I'm putting this baby up for adoption. I just wanted to find out what would give the baby the happiest life.
MALKIN: There is no happy life -- not for this child, not without you.
CLAIRE: I don't. . .
MALKIN: It can't be another. You mustn't allow another to raise your baby.
CLAIRE: Okay, great. Thanks for taking my 200.
MALKIN: Oh, no look, take it. Ms. Littleton; I am begging you just to consider...
CLAIRE: I can't raise this child by myself.
MALKIN: You have to listen to me.
CLAIRE: Thanks for your time, and my money back.
MALKIN: Ms. Littleton, please. The baby needs your protection. Ms. Littleton, please.

I think it's gotta be Claire.

Thanks for the transcript Zoe. So Kate does not have the right nature, spirit, and not enough goodness in her to raise Aaron? What does this say about Kate? I know she is a murderess but it's not like she is a serial killer. I don't think she poses a danger to Aaron so what danger could the psychic have been referring to? Did the psychic perhaps see this very future? Did he foresee Kate raising him (but miss the part about Kate also being on the same plane he tricked Claire into getting on)?

gantos69

05-09-2008, 02:09 AM

Who say's Claire is dead and who say's if she is that Aaron is not dead as well?;)

The baby wasn't with Claire when her shack got hit by a rocket propelled grenade- that would be my frame of reference. Although I admit she may not be dead, she certainly did look changed in this epi. Which is why I don't think she is going to end up raising the baby.:rolleyes:

IMHO everything Malkin told Claire was designed to get her on that plane to LA, and I would say he did his job . :kiss:

Zoriah

05-09-2008, 02:19 AM

The Island says Jack must not raise him.
Malkin says Claire must raise him.
But there is a good chance Claire is dead. Perhaps it doesn't matter as long as she stays on the island?

My guess is that Kate definitely needs to bring Aaron back to the island to be raised, and most likely to Claire. That may be her dramatic journey, and sacrifice/atonement, learning how to love and care for Aaron only to have to give him back to his real mother. Heartbreaking but perhaps this is her road to redemption?

However, it is interesting that both Claire and Jacob/Christian seem to think Aaron is destined to be protected by Sawyer and then presumably handed to Kate who leaves.

As others have pointed out, maybe Aaron needs to be taken away for a while until things are safer and then returned?

Renault

05-09-2008, 02:19 AM

The guy later admitted that he wasn't psychic.

I'm not buying that though. If he was a scam artist, he would have taken her money.

Semi-related thought to this thread: In last week's episode, didn't it seem when Hurley told Jack that he wasn't supposed to raise Aaron, that Jack had heard that before? He didn't react with "Huh? What the hell are you talking about Hurley?" He winced and recoiled, like he was hearing something he had already heard before and didn't want to again.

Guinevere

05-09-2008, 02:20 AM

Or, must he not be raised by AN OTHER? :eek2:

More and more, Bella, I've been thinking that this is the case. When we first heard the prophecy, we assumed another but as time has gone on, it's seemed that he was meaning An Other and, after tonight's show, I'm leaning towards the "An Other" phrase. However, I also think that Christian meant that Aaron was being taken to safety not necessarily that Sawyer and Kate are supposed to raise him. I thought it looked like Claire was in a hypnotic state or something tonight so I'm not going with the Claire is dead boat yet. But, if it turns out that she did die, then someone will have to raise Aaron and that's why I keep coming to the "An Other" phrasing. I'm repeating myself, aren't I??

Theologian

05-09-2008, 02:36 AM

Cardielost

05-09-2008, 02:52 AM

bakerboys

05-09-2008, 03:12 AM

sk8rpro

05-09-2008, 05:37 AM

I think it's highly likely that someone paid the psychic to tell Claire to keep the baby, because it was necessary to their plans to have the baby born on the island. He wouldn't have taken Claire's money, because he was being well compensated by others. He did after all later change his tune and say that the couple in LA were A-OK to raise the baby, as long as she got on that plane. It's rather like Abbadon telling Locke to go on walkabout.

Cardie

Thank you. You beat me to the rebuttal, but that's okay. I'm confused why this fear of 'raised by another' is bought into when season 2's Mr. Malkin shows his true colors. Is it because older fans who watched Season 1 more than me remember S1 better?

I agree. It seems that most of our main Lostaways have been manipulated into getting on that flight one way or another. I wonder if any of the others have been visited by Richard or Abbadon?
Perhaps this will be a new theme coming up in S5.

tiarna

05-09-2008, 06:58 AM

How can you ignore the symbolism of Sawyer giving a child to Kate?

Am I nuts, but is there actually "symbolism" in the fact that Sawyer gives Aaron to Kate..Claire's gone, so he brings the baby back to the beach, where he'll be safe..seems he's just a tool to get Aaron to "where he needs to be"..i.e the beach, where he can be rescued & come back at a later date?

Zoriah

05-09-2008, 07:15 AM

No, you're not nuts. Some people are talking about Moses imagery, but I'm not all that up on the details to tell you why it's brought up here.

But for me, I just love the fact that Sawyer asked Kate in Eggtown: What would you and I do with a baby? And then we got an answer through Aaron's situation: They'd both protect it with their lives and keep it safe. On island and off island.

Eventually though, I suspect Aaron does indeed need to be returned to Claire or else the bad effects of the prophecy will take place. Maybe they aleady are taking place.

LostPack

05-09-2008, 07:16 AM

I can't even imagine where it could be postulated that either Sawyer or Kate are meant to raise Aaron - there's not even a teeny weeny itsy bitsy shred of information leading to that idea. The only information we've seen to date was that of Malkin telling Claire about who must raise the kid. (The dialog is posted above in this thread). Whether or not Malkin is a psychic or a fraud is (IMO) irrelevant. What he told Claire was pre-crash, pre-island, pre-all of this - so the mere fact that he could speak of the perils of the future regarding Aaron gives him the credibility that he knew something was amiss. While it is unclear how he had that information or foresight or whatever it was is not known.. but that doesn't make it untrue. So... there's nothing to show that either Sawyer or Kate are meant to raise anyone.
One other little detail... regarding Sawyer being the one who hands over Aaron to Kate... I can't see how this could be interpreted as symbolic or anything. He simply was the one to pick the kid up.. and she was the one that happened to be there to take the baby. It could have been a red shirt.. or Rose.. or Jack, or anyone. I just don't think that meant anything. Not at this point anyway.

Just as a general observation.. I often wonder if there are different versions of this show airing that people are watching because some of the conclusions I see are certainly not relevant to the show that I've been watching!

RodimusBen

05-09-2008, 07:18 AM

Count me in the camp that Malkin was a genuine psychic and that Claire is meant to raise Aaron. I think Christian just meant that things are unfolding as they should.

1DocLover

05-09-2008, 07:20 AM

Sawyer and Kate are meant to raise Aaron just about as much as Jack and Kate are!

tiarna

05-09-2008, 07:25 AM

[quote=LostPack;1881667]. So... there's nothing to show that either Sawyer or Kate are meant to raise anyone.
One other little detail... regarding Sawyer being the one who hands over Aaron to Kate... I can't see how this could be interpreted as symbolic or anything. He simply was the one to pick the kid up.. and she was the one that happened to be there to take the baby. It could have been a red shirt.. or Rose.. or Jack, or anyone. I just don't think that meant anything. Not at this point anyway.
quote]

:hesaid:

shamrock

05-09-2008, 07:25 AM

I don't think Malkin was genuine. I think he wasa con artist who just tried to extract money from people UNTIL the day he met Claire. I like to think that the only time in his life that he gave a true reading was when he met her. That's why he was so freaked out, because he actually had a real vision and it frightened him.

That's my train of thought anyway.

Zoriah

05-09-2008, 07:25 AM

You're probably right there 1DocLover, but it's open to interpretation because !DeadCharlie only said Jack was not supposed to raise him. And some people believe Malkin is a real soothsayer and other's don't. We don't know Aaron's true destiny yet. Christian/Jacob and Claire seemed fine with Aaron being left with Sawyer, and have said it's meant to be that way. So there is indeed room for speculation.

But count me in the camp that believes the prophecy is real and Aaron is meant to grow up on the island with Claire close to look over him.

ETA: Of course it could have been any random person nearby who found Aaron and handed it off to anyone except the writers chose for it to be Sawyer who was already protecting Claire and Aaron after they fled from the massacre at the barracks (he was therefore right there when Claire disappeared), and he is most likely going to hand off the baby to his lover Kate whom he trusts, and who we know is going to do her very best to take care of him for the next 3 years. The writers chose those two specific characters because it made sense for whatever plotlines they have going, it feeds into the whole parental issues/fears both Sawyer and Kate have, and it's a nice moment of connection/closure for them after their pregnancy row in Eggtown. Everything happens for a reason.

lemers718

05-09-2008, 07:35 AM

If Sawyer in not meant to be a very important figure in Aaron life why leave Aaron for Sawyer to find? The baby could have been left anywhere even at the beach. And if Claire is suppose to raise him why abandon him at all? So many questions-Oh that right this is LOST.

yas_m

05-09-2008, 07:38 AM

shoegirl

05-09-2008, 07:43 AM

Sawyer isn't taking care of his own kid, why would the island expect him to take care of Aaron? I think the OP is reading too much into the story. Ultimately Aaron is of Shephard blood. And in a Shephard's hands he will likely end up. Hopefully, Claire's. Aaron: He IS Jack's nephew. He IS Claire's son. He IS Christian's grandson.

Franci

05-09-2008, 07:45 AM

I can't even imagine where it could be postulated that either Sawyer or Kate are meant to raise Aaron - there's not even a teeny weeny itsy bitsy shred of information leading to that idea.

LOL,Thanks. I just don't understand what part of "He must not be raised by another" people don't get.

If Sawyer in not meant to be a very important figure in Aaron life why leave Aaron for Sawyer to find?

Because Hugo is with Locke&Ben in Jacobville, Jack Kate Juliet and the others are on the beach,Sayid&Des on the boat,and Sawyer was the only one there,with Claire.
I think it's been also a good thing for his character to see him so protective and responsable of a kid(even if just for a little while) because you know,I'd say that if Sawyer is supposed to raise a child, it should be HIS OWN daughter. :rolleyes:

tiarna

05-09-2008, 07:46 AM

If Sawyer in not meant to be a very important figure in Aaron life why leave Aaron for Sawyer to find? The baby could have been left anywhere even at the beach.

Who else was going to find him? Claire was traveling back to the beach with Sawyer, Christian wanted the baby back with Kate & crew so he'd be rescued & since Sawyer was with her, leaving him near by was probably the best way for that to happen.I don't think it has anything to do with Sawyer been an "important figure" in his life..
I doubt they'd let the baby hang out in the jungle/beach until someone happened to come across him..

uhohlisa

05-09-2008, 08:02 AM

you guys you guys... Excuse my typing but from those who remember the epi where malkin says he's a fraud... I remember something extremely creepy happening that made me doubt him. I think it was that he told Eko he'd see his brother or saw him too... It happened in the airport. Well, here's my theory: between that knowledge &wanting claire on 815 I'm thinking he is either a dharma/ben/widmore? Or otherwise island person of some kind, and thus his "abilities" (visions via the island) we'll have to wait and see if or why he was conning her. Did the island tell him something that he believed and because he's not a true psychic be couldn't see how horriby things would go awry (kate having to raise Aaron instead)? This might explain any discrepencies between christian saying aaron is where he should be vs malkins original warning.

Now, I still think this has nothing to do with sawyer, sorry. I think he's an important character definitely, but I don't see him having great metaphorical consequence to the show in the end. But that won't make him any less beloved or heroic (think Charlie)

Islandtracker

05-09-2008, 08:49 AM

lizziefitz

05-09-2008, 08:55 AM

For me, this is the most interesting line in the Claire-Malkin discussion:

MALKIN: Your nature, your spirit, your goodness, must be an influence in the development of this child.

I think Claire is dead; she died when the RPG hit her house. Miles realized something was very strange but couldn't figure out why everyone else could still see Claire. On the island the beloved (or needed) dead are still alive to some extent. Claire is dead, but as long as she's on the island, her nature, her spirit, her goodness will be able to influence the development of Aaron. Claire had to get to the island so that she'd live long enough to bond with Aaron, to feel real love for him, but not necessarily long enough to raise Aaron herself.

We already know that Kate is Aaron's protector off-island; we also know that Kate seems to be coping far better than other O6 survivors. Perhaps that's because she's doing what she's supposed to do--raise Aaron, and try to keep some trace of Claire alive for him in the Australian animals in his room. We know that Jack isn't supposed to raise Aaron. We know that Sawyer had an odd connection with Aaron early on, when his voice was the only thing that could soothe Aaron. It doesn't seem such a tremendous or unwarranted leap to think that, if Claire doesn't survive, Aaron is meant to be raised on the island once it is again safe, and Kate and Sawyer will be the appropriate surrogates, willing to raise Aaron where he can experience the spirit and goodness of Claire, in whatever form.

yas_m

05-09-2008, 09:05 AM

Can you imagine a Ford and an Austen raising a Shephard?!?! Surely that would upset the gods, Jacob, the island, and all the mighty and holy powers. Their wrath will be unleashed upon us all :eek2:

lizziefitz

05-09-2008, 10:11 AM

Can you imagine a Ford and an Austen raising a Shephard?!?! Surely that would upset the gods, Jacob, the island, and all the mighty and holy powers. Their wrath will be unleashed upon us all :eek2:

Yes, because Christian Shephard was the greatest parent ever. And who would teach little Aaron to drink like a Shephard?

sarakat

05-09-2008, 10:42 AM

I didn't realize this was a discussion about who's better suited to raise a child, lol.

I think that Sawyer and Kate raising Aaron on the island could happen, if Claire dies. Just because some may not like the idea or don't want it to happen, doesn't mean that it's outside the realm of possibility. Personally, I would prefer that in the end, Kate returns Aaron to Claire, I think that's the best case scenario. But after this episode, I'm not certain that Claire is even alive. What mother would calmly smile like that and not be desperate to be with her child (by the way, I thought Emilie played that scene really great, it was so creepy)? I wouldn't be surprised if Claire is dead already, and her 'ghost' will continue to play a major role in this story and the overall mythology.

Either way, I didn't take Christian's comment that Aaron is "where he's supposed to be" to mean that Sawyer is meant to raise him, or that Aaron is meant to leave the island (I don't think Aaron is supposed to be raised off the island at all). I think it just meant that he is being protected. That said, these writers are very adept at weaving storylines together, and it is interesting to see the change in Sawyer, not long after having the argument with Kate about having a child together.

As I said, I'm hopeful that Claire will be reunited with Aaron and raise him on the island, but if she dies or is already dead, what happens then? We know for sure that Jack is not supposed to raise Aaron. I think that Aaron is meant to be raised on the island, and if Claire is dead, I think it's quite possible that Kate and Sawyer end up raising him there, with Claire's "presence" surrounding them.

cleofusmcd3

05-09-2008, 10:57 AM

I think Malkin's just full of crap.

For me what really stood out about the episode is that of the two losties in the cabin, Locke and Claire...up till know these are the only two people we have seen how they were manipulated in some way to get on the plane.

Abbadon had to know the walkabout people wouldn't let John go with them in a wheelchair or at least could easily pay them off to do so. We know Malkin was paid off to work with Claire. I think he felt some guilt about it but got over it and did what he was paid to do and insist that Claire get on that plane.

LadybirdKate

05-09-2008, 11:35 AM

I have no words only faces--------> :lol: :confused: :lol::confused: :lol: :confused:

Sometimes I wonder if everyone watches the same show I do. :rolleyes:

:41:

lol, okiee
Sunday School Lesson.
Adam & Eve :
Have Cain and Able (and Seth)

Cain Murdered Able out of Jealousy (the First Murder) He is cursed by God and chased into the desert.

JACOB was the son of Issac (the Son of Abaraham who he longed for so very long and was aksed to sacrifice upon having him.)

Jacob had 12 sons. (13 w/ Benjamin)

But before He had his Sons God sent an angel to wrestle with him, and Changed his Name from Jacob ' The Deceiver ' to Israel. The Founder if you will of the nation. His 12 Sons, the 12 Tribes.

There For I really don't think we should Read too much into Lost's Jacob Biblically because he wasn't a spiritual leader, he was a nation.

He moved to Egypt in the land of Goshen where his Son Joseph ruled Second only to Pharaoh. Years passed and The Egyptians needed laborers and made Slaves of the Hebrews (Israelites) Which eventually Led to Moses and the emancipation of the Israelites from Egypt.

Preach on Sista.

Esau...Jacob's brother...Who's heel he grasped during childbirth.Which is also another meaning for Jacob..." He who grasps the heel".

Esau...Who was Jacob's twin brother...Was the HUNTER....Also the one that sold * to his brother* his birthright...which he also despised.....( Locke to Ben..." I'm not you.")

Could that be a symbolism for Locke? Clearly they aren't brothers...but none the less...

Genesis: 27:34...When Esau heard his father's words, he burst out with a loud and bitter cry and said to his father, " Bless me--me too, my father!"

But he said, " Your brother came deceitfully and took your blessing." ;) (Don't know if this really belongs here...but since it came up...)

For me, this is the most interesting line in the Claire-Malkin discussion:

I think Claire is dead; she died when the RPG hit her house. Miles realized something was very strange but couldn't figure out why everyone else could still see Claire. On the island the beloved (or needed) dead are still alive to some extent. Claire is dead, but as long as she's on the island, her nature, her spirit, her goodness will be able to influence the development of Aaron. Claire had to get to the island so that she'd live long enough to bond with Aaron, to feel real love for him, but not necessarily long enough to raise Aaron herself.

We already know that Kate is Aaron's protector off-island; we also know that Kate seems to be coping far better than other O6 survivors. Perhaps that's because she's doing what she's supposed to do--raise Aaron, and try to keep some trace of Claire alive for him in the Australian animals in his room.

OMG. This is so well said...I thought exactly the same thing. She dosen't look stressed out at all...That her Father is sitting there on the island in a cabin with her in the middle of nowhere..nor...knowing that the freighter people are insane and dangerous...No...She's sitting there smiling, as if all will be taken care of. I say she's dead too...and she knows exactly who took care of her and Aaron * that is still living anyway...poor Charlie R.I.P....*...Including the first face that Aaron himself saw...

KATE. It wouldn't shock me if Claire shows herself to her before they leave the island!

But after this episode, I'm not certain that Claire is even alive. What mother would calmly smile like that and not be desperate to be with her child (by the way, I thought Emilie played that scene really great, it was so creepy)? I wouldn't be surprised if Claire is dead already, and her 'ghost' will continue to play a major role in this story and the overall mythology.

:coolgleamA: :buttrock9pq:

I think Malkin's just full of crap.

For me what really stood out about the episode is that of the two losties in the cabin, Locke and Claire...up till know these are the only two people we have seen how they were manipulated in some way to get on the plane.

Abbadon had to know the walkabout people wouldn't let John go with them in a wheelchair or at least could easily pay them off to do so. We know Malkin was paid off to work with Claire. I think he felt some guilt about it but got over it and did what he was paid to do and insist that Claire get on that plane.

THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Laurie P

05-09-2008, 11:45 AM

The psychic said no one other than Claire was supposed to raise Aaron. Claire may or may not be dead - TPTB deliberately left that ambiguous, with arguments having merit on both sides.

Perhaps Christian meant that Aaron is supposed to get off the island - for now - to avoid the Freighties, but that it is his greater destiny to then return to the island when that danger has passed.

In the future, just because Kate has not yet had visits from dead people doesn't mean she won't be getting them. Face it, something has to happen to change her mind about going back to the island. It could very well be that she comes to see that she isn't meant to raise Aaron either.

losttvfan

05-09-2008, 11:48 AM

I think that Kate and Sawyer as parents would be amazing. It's their second chance, the opportunity to do it right, to do what their parents so failed to do, make a safe and happy home for Aaron, a child Kate delivered when he was born and Sawyer delivered to her when he lost Claire. Aaron is right where he belongs and Kate and Sawyer are finding out ‘what they would do with a baby’. Protect it, love it; keep it safe.

The Island is all about second chances and redemption. Karma, not repeating past mistakes and Kate and Sawyer have made plenty of them in their former lives. So what?. Are we going to refuse to look past that and recognize that they are both changing? They cannot erase the past, only learn from it and not make the same mistakes, again and again. It IS possible that is what we are seeing unfold with this storyline.

Kate was disappointed in Eggtown that she wasn’t pregnant, asking Sawyer ‘if it would have been the worst thing in the world’. His answer led to their argument and yet here he is ‘giving’ Kate a baby. Kudos to TPTB for once again taking the story full circle, turning a moment several episodes back into a moment we are going to see in the finale. Kate and Sawyer with the child the Island has given them and they have both stepped up to the plate. Sawyer putting Aaron’s welfare (and Claire’s) above his own and Kate, in the future, becoming the mother her mother could not, would not be. Putting Aaron before herself, before Jack; and before even her freedom. Kate will leave the Island because she has Aaron in her arms. Sawyer will stay because Aaron’s mother is missing. They will give up their chance to be together to do the right thing, for Aaron and for Claire. For love, because they have learned some valuable lessons there on Craphole Island, lessons they were there to learn.

I love the parallels and the symmetry. The Island has given them a task, whether the task is a permanent one and they will actually become Aaron’s forever family or if they are, instead, the temporary guardians of this child the Island wants protected, Kate and Sawyer have accepted the responsibility of caring for something, someone, outside themselves or each other. This is huge for these two flawed and damaged characters!

maxaholic

05-09-2008, 11:58 AM

Aaron must not be RISED BY ANOTHER.
He is supposed to be rised by Claire.
I agree with you, but do you remember Ecko's flashback when he had to go to Australia to see if there had been a miracle and the psychic's daughter was the "miracle". The psychic told Ecko he was a fraud. Now, I don't know if the man was trying to push the attention away, but he was insistant. In the end of that flashback, the girl did convince Ecko that she was a miracle; therefore, making Ecko a man of faith. Maybe that was all to insure that the psychic was just lying. I was just thinking that maybe he told Claire all this stuff just so that she'd be on the plane for Aaron to be delivered there because that is where he is to be for whomever to raise him.

I'm totally hoping that Claire is being mystified by the island into letting Aaron go for now so he's safe and then return to her alive and well (both of them) for her to raise. That would be awesome, but we cannot forget what the psychic said.

kansasgal71

05-09-2008, 12:01 PM

Can Claire still have an influence in Aaron's life, and technically raise him? Jack sees Christian, could Claire pop up to give Kate advice???

LadybirdKate

05-09-2008, 12:05 PM

Sawyer putting Aaron’s welfare (and Claire’s) above his own and Kate, in the future, becoming the mother her mother could not, would not be. Putting Aaron before herself, before Jack; and before even her freedom. Kate will leave the Island because she has Aaron in her arms. Sawyer will stay because Aaron’s mother is missing. They will give up their chance to be together to do the right thing, for Aaron and for Claire. For love, because they have learned some valuable lessons there on Craphole Island, lessons they were there to learn.
This is huge for these two flawed and damaged characters!

I'm not really a SKater anymore * although I still think Sawyer is pretty darn hysterical at times*...But damn ...I have to admit...That is GOOD.

:biggrin:

lulinha_k

05-09-2008, 12:12 PM

giulia_ricci

05-09-2008, 12:16 PM

workingmom

05-09-2008, 12:36 PM

gantos69

05-09-2008, 12:42 PM

For me, this is the most interesting line in the Claire-Malkin discussion:

I think Claire is dead; she died when the RPG hit her house. Miles realized something was very strange but couldn't figure out why everyone else could still see Claire. On the island the beloved (or needed) dead are still alive to some extent. Claire is dead, but as long as she's on the island, her nature, her spirit, her goodness will be able to influence the development of Aaron. Claire had to get to the island so that she'd live long enough to bond with Aaron, to feel real love for him, but not necessarily long enough to raise Aaron herself.

We already know that Kate is Aaron's protector off-island; we also know that Kate seems to be coping far better than other O6 survivors. Perhaps that's because she's doing what she's supposed to do--raise Aaron, and try to keep some trace of Claire alive for him in the Australian animals in his room. We know that Jack isn't supposed to raise Aaron. We know that Sawyer had an odd connection with Aaron early on, when his voice was the only thing that could soothe Aaron. It doesn't seem such a tremendous or unwarranted leap to think that, if Claire doesn't survive, Aaron is meant to be raised on the island once it is again safe, and Kate and Sawyer will be the appropriate surrogates, willing to raise Aaron where he can experience the spirit and goodness of Claire, in whatever form.

Thank you. My point exactly.

maxaholic

05-09-2008, 12:42 PM

Can Claire still have an influence in Aaron's life, and technically raise him? Jack sees Christian, could Claire pop up to give Kate advice???
Totally! Great thought!

sarakat

05-09-2008, 12:43 PM

Let's say that Claire is dead, as many are speculating after last night's episode. For those of you who do not think there is a chance that Kate and Sawyer will raise Aaron on the island, what do you feel is more likely to happen? Kate bringing up Aaron alone on or off the island?

ZoeWashburne

05-09-2008, 12:53 PM

In the future, just because Kate has not yet had visits from dead people doesn't mean she won't be getting them. Face it, something has to happen to change her mind about going back to the island. It could very well be that she comes to see that she isn't meant to raise Aaron either.

That's what I keep thinking is going to happen in the finale. There has to be some reason for Kate (and Sun for that matter) to go back!

Let's say that Claire is dead, as many are speculating after last night's episode. For those of you who do not think there is a chance that Kate and Sawyer will raise Aaron on the island, what do you feel is more likely to happen? Kate bringing up Aaron alone on or off the island?

I think if Claire is dead, Aaron grows up to be the anti-Christ ;)

But really, if she's dead, I don't really know what would happen. I would assume Aaron would end up back on the island with Kate, who would raise him, with or without the help of any of the gentlemen on the island.

I'm not trying to say that Kate and/or Sawyer couldn't raise Aaron if they had to - and indeed, Kate has to for a time at least - I just don't think they were meant to by fate/destiny which is what seems to be the original intent of this topic. I think Claire is the one who is supposed to raise Aaron and Kate ends up with him in a flukey twist. He could just have easily been raised by Sun or Rose or Hurley or anyone. We haven't been presented with any reason why fate/destiny said it had to be Kate. And I think there is even less that says Sawyer is supposed to have anything to do with his upbringing.

ked

05-09-2008, 01:01 PM

IceKat55

05-09-2008, 01:02 PM

And I think there is even less that says Sawyer is supposed to have anything to do with his upbringing.

Except that it was Sawyer who found Aaron alone under that tree, and will seemingly deliver the baby into Kate's arms. ;)

eyris

05-09-2008, 01:13 PM

I think Claire is as dead a doornail or as a Christian Shepherd. So the question becomes, is she even capable of raising Aaron now?

Who knows? Richard Alpert might be dead also, and he seems somewhat capable of mentoring children.

People seem to forget that Malkin "changed" his prophecy and told Claire that there was a couple, "good people," who would adopt her child... but she must be on that particular flight, blah, blah, blah. So the argument could go a number of ways. Was he right the first time or the second time? Was he just completely incompetent? I'm sure tptb will explain it some day, but for now you can't really use his prophecies to predict what Aaron's ultimate destiny is.

popstalindesign

05-09-2008, 01:15 PM

Just for reference:

MALKIN: It is crucial that you, yourself, raise this child.
CLAIRE: You mean with Thomas? Is he..
MALKIN: The father of this child will play no part in it's life, nor yours.
CLAIRE: So what exactly are you saying?
MALKIN: This child parented by anyone else, anyone other than you -- danger surrounds this baby. . .
CLAIRE: Danger?
MALKIN: Your nature, your spirit, your goodness, must be an influence in the development of this child.
CLAIRE: If Thomas and I don't get back together I'm putting this baby up for adoption. I just wanted to find out what would give the baby the happiest life.
MALKIN: There is no happy life -- not for this child, not without you.
CLAIRE: I don't. . .
MALKIN: It can't be another. You mustn't allow another to raise your baby.
CLAIRE: Okay, great. Thanks for taking my 200.
MALKIN: Oh, no look, take it. Ms. Littleton; I am begging you just to consider...
CLAIRE: I can't raise this child by myself.
MALKIN: You have to listen to me.
CLAIRE: Thanks for your time, and my money back.
MALKIN: Ms. Littleton, please. The baby needs your protection. Ms. Littleton, please.

I think it's gotta be Claire.

I see your transcript and raise you one! This is what he tells her later in the episode. (The bold underlined text is my emphasis)

CLAIRE: You spent the last 4 months telling me I have to raise the baby myself. Now you're giving me money and saying I don't have to?
MALKIN: I found a couple in Los Angeles who are very eager to adopt. The baby will be safe in their care. Now, I've foreseen. . .
CLAIRE: Heh, Foreseen? I don't even know why I'm here. I'm sorry.
MALKIN: I know this sounds ridiculous, Claire. All this psychic business, and I appreciate that you must think I'm a raving madman. But this is what must happen.
CLAIRE: So you're giving me 6000 dollars to give my baby to a couple of strangers in Los Angeles?
MALKIN: 12,000. The other 6 when you arrive in Los Angeles. And they're not strangers, Claire. They're good people.

IceKat55

05-09-2008, 01:18 PM

I do think that maybe Sawyer being around Aaron will lead to some kinda epiphany regarding his baby daughter and maybe he will open up about it to Kate. So maybe that is part of the reason for having Sawyer protecting Aaron right now.

And Sawyer had a bit of a connection with Aaron in the past, too...it was Sawyer's voice, at one point, that was the most soothing sound to Aaron and kept him calm.

eyris

05-09-2008, 01:27 PM

I'm not really on board with Sawyer and Kate raising Aaron yet, but I did get a sense from the FB in this episode that Alpert and co. get prophecies from the island - hence his keeping tabs on John throughout childhood - but that maybe the prophecies aren't very clear and sometimes Alpert interprets them wrong. Like when boy John surprised Alpert by choosing the knife, and Alpert had second thoughts, yet still later tried to recruit him via Mittelos. And then young Ben showing up in the island's hostile territory seemed to take Alpert completely by surprise.

So if they sometimes misinterpret prophecies, maybe Ben/Richard and co. were told that a child raised by Sawyer and Kate is supposed to be important to the island, so they made the mistake of assuming that it would be their biological child, hence Ben's OBSESSION with getting Sawyer and Kate to hook up.

(I'm just having fun theorizing at this point, not that I really buy into this. )

MidnightSawyerfan

05-09-2008, 01:31 PM

Sawyer finding Aaron and delivering him to safe hands certainly brings up the question of his potential role in raising him. If Sawyer has always had a bond with Aaron, as we know he has had... e.g. his voice soothing the baby and Claire handing Aaron to him on occasions previously. She obviously felt him trustworthy enough to take care of him for her. Maybe that was a sign all along and we just didn't know it. Lizziefitz, I think your theory could well be correct and if it is, the result of it definitely explains more meaning behind the prophecy, if it was one.

THANK YOU!
Is almost amusing how sometimes, shippers look at everything in this show with colored shipper glasses.

Shipper goggles are so easily the thing preventing us from looking into what could really be going on. Which is why it is good to consider all possibilities, think outside of the box so to speak. Our facts as we know them now are that Jack is not supposed to raise Aaron, Kate actually is continuing to raise him and Sawyer is the reason that Kate ever had the opportunity to do so since he is ensuring Aaron gets back to safety. What can happen beyond that for Aaron, especially if the O6 all return to the island and if Claire is already dead?

I just don't see how Sawyer or Kate tie into the island mythology related to Claire, Aaron and the Shephard clan - now that we see that Christian is apparently tied into this island mythology.
If Sawyer and Kate were destined to be parents back on the island, wouldn't the Island have given Sawyer super-sperm to impregnate Kate when they had the chance? It seems they went out of the way to show that even on the isle of destiny, that was not their path.

Because their path may well be to take care of Aaron instead, perhaps. It does seem more that way now than I ever would have thought previously. Perhaps a reason for why Kate and potentially Sawyer (or indeed anyone else) should be the ones to raise Claire's baby is to prevent the faults of the Shephard family from being passed on to Aaron i.e. the issues befalling Christian and Jack. All I know right now is Aaron is where he's supposed to be - i.e. with Sawyer, on his way to Kate, his mother in the upcoming timeframe as we know it.

losttvfan

05-09-2008, 01:42 PM

I see your transcript and raise you one! This is what he tells her later in the episode. (The bold underlined text is my emphasis)

CLAIRE: You spent the last 4 months telling me I have to raise the baby myself. Now you're giving me money and saying I don't have to?
MALKIN: I found a couple in Los Angeles who are very eager to adopt. The baby will be safe in their care. Now, I've foreseen. . .
CLAIRE: Heh, Foreseen? I don't even know why I'm here. I'm sorry.
MALKIN: I know this sounds ridiculous, Claire. All this psychic business, and I appreciate that you must think I'm a raving madman. But this is what must happen.
CLAIRE: So you're giving me 6000 dollars to give my baby to a couple of strangers in Los Angeles?
MALKIN: 12,000. The other 6 when you arrive in Los Angeles. And they're not strangers, Claire. They're good people.

Nice find popstalindesign . The whole raise by another storyline has been kept deliberately vague. No surprise there! First there are two ways of looking at this important phrase:

Raised by another.

Raised by an Other.

Also the idea that Claire's goodness needs to surround the child. If Claire is truly dead, couldn't she do that in the same way Charlie is trying to influence Hurley from beyond the grave?

Considering Aaron's importance to the story; is it not possible that this child will be surrounded by his 'earthly' parents (perhaps Kate and Sawyer) and his spiritual parents (Claire and Charlie). One set of parents providing for his human needs, protection and sustaince and the other set providing the mystical connection to the Island and his eventual destiny. He is still a child, he has needs that cannot be provide by the spiritual; once grown, he can follow the path that Claire and Charlie may show him. This is not much different from the Biblical story of Moses who was born of one set of parents but raise by another or Jesus who was born of a human mother, raised by a man with no blood connection to him but had a spiritual father. He journey began once he was old enough not to have to rely on his human parents but could move toward his heavenly father and pick up the reins of his purpose on earth.

We have not begun to understand how the raise by another prophesy will unwind as the story progresses, but we can all agree it will, more than likely, not be exactly what any of us are expecting. Lost is never that easy. Twists and turns are coming, we can speculate and then sit back and enjoy the ride.

popstalindesign

05-09-2008, 01:50 PM

Nice find popstalindesign . The whole raise by another storyline has been kept deliberately vague. No surprise there! First there are two ways of looking at this important phrase:

Raised by another.

Raised by an Other.

I am really, really intrigued by the play of "Raised by an Other" and wouldn't be surprised if that is indeed the case here instead of the literal "Raised by Another." Especially after S1's harrowing Claire kidnapping by Ethan.

I really think the whole point is that Aaron needs to be OFF the Island and it doesn't really matter who raises him once he's not there. As far as Claire's goodness, well if we continue to see Creepy Cabin Claire, I get the impression she's not so good :eek2:

char

05-09-2008, 02:21 PM

To me it's definately "raised by another", not "an Other", to me that's just silly. Why would the writers bring up the fact that he can't be raised by an Other when we haven't been shown an Other who wants to raise him? If the Others had really wanted to actually raise the child I think they would have kidnapped him again, but they just let him be - why? And why would Malkin say Other when that's only what Danielle called them? If Malkin was somehow involved with the DI/Widmore then he'd say Hostile or something else, right? Unless he used to hang out with Danielle. Or maybe it's sloppy writing and they just wanted viewers to think "Others" because that's what all we knew to call them back then? But there's still the problem of no Other actually wanting to raise him, they just wanted to experiment on Mommy. I don't know for sure but I think "raised by another" works just fine.

At first I thought this theory was shipper nonsense, but hey, it's possible I guess. But anything is possible at this point, so I hope Skaters don't get their hopes up too high. It could go in so many directions at this point, but I understand some people wanting the story to go this way. And this is Lost after all so there probably won't be any super-happy-dandy shipper fantasy endings for any ship. I really think that Aaron belongs with Claire always, even ghost-Claire, but the writers know what they're doing :smile:

popstalindesign

05-09-2008, 02:40 PM

To me it's definately "raised by another", not "an Other", to me that's just silly. Why would the writers bring up the fact that he can't be raised by an Other when we haven't been shown an Other who wants to raise him?

Even though at that point we hadn't seen any Other's, they kidnapped all the kids. So, they have a definite interest in the children on the Island. Hell, they even took Walt. The Other's were, IMO, searching for something/one and I think that is Aaron—which is why Aaron is "where he's supposed to be," on his way off the Island. Let us not forget that Malkin was trying to get Aaron to LA to be "adopted" by a couple who aren't "strangers."

lizziefitz

05-09-2008, 02:40 PM

I never believed there was a nice couple in Los Angeles. If there were, why was it so important for Claire to be on that particular plane? Why not have the nice couple come to Sydney to meet the eight-months-pregnant mum? I think Malkin was just trying to get Claire on Oceanic 815.

I just don't see how Sawyer or Kate tie into the island mythology related to Claire, Aaron and the Shephard clan - now that we see that Christian is apparently tied into this island mythology.

Perhaps that's why they would be chosen as foster parents for Aaron--because they aren't tied into the island mythology. Neither seems interested in the island's odder qualities. Perhaps neither would be seduced by the island's potential powers the way Ben, Widmore, and perhaps Locke and Christian have been. They just refer to the island as "home."

If Sawyer and Kate were destined to be parents back on the island, wouldn't the Island have given Sawyer super-sperm to impregnate Kate when they had the chance? It seems they went out of the way to show that even on the isle of destiny, that was not their path.

Perhaps the island's control of destiny is the only good explanation for Kate's failure to conceive, given what we know, other than Kate's not-yet-revealed sterility. And perhaps it wasn't their destiny to conceive, but it seems that the possibility of conception has focused their minds on the possibilities and responsibilities of parenthood--at least it seems to have done so for Kate. So I can't comfortably agree that the storyline has done more than tell us that a biological child is not in the cards any time soon. It hasn't negated parenthood in some other form.

popstalindesign

05-09-2008, 02:54 PM

polusmaximus

05-09-2008, 03:00 PM

Aaron must not be RISED BY ANOTHER.
He is supposed to be rised by Claire.

He's not being raised by an other

He's being raised by Kate who we all know is not an other.

saska

05-09-2008, 03:03 PM

I'm not really on board with Sawyer and Kate raising Aaron yet, but I did get a sense from the FB in this episode that Alpert and co. get prophecies from the island - hence his keeping tabs on John throughout childhood - but that maybe the prophecies aren't very clear and sometimes Alpert interprets them wrong. Like when boy John surprised Alpert by choosing the knife, and Alpert had second thoughts, yet still later tried to recruit him via Mittelos. And then young Ben showing up in the island's hostile territory seemed to take Alpert completely by surprise.

So if they sometimes misinterpret prophecies, maybe Ben/Richard and co. were told that a child raised by Sawyer and Kate is supposed to be important to the island, so they made the mistake of assuming that it would be their biological child, hence Ben's OBSESSION with getting Sawyer and Kate to hook up.

That is a very interesting idea. Kate and Sawyer did not seem to be connected to the island's mythology, but they were on Ben's list. Maybe that's why. I love this show.

sk8rpro

05-09-2008, 03:05 PM

I see your transcript and raise you one! This is what he tells her later in the episode. (The bold underlined text is my emphasis)

CLAIRE: You spent the last 4 months telling me I have to raise the baby myself. Now you're giving me money and saying I don't have to?
MALKIN: I found a couple in Los Angeles who are very eager to adopt. The baby will be safe in their care. Now, I've foreseen. . .
CLAIRE: Heh, Foreseen? I don't even know why I'm here. I'm sorry.
MALKIN: I know this sounds ridiculous, Claire. All this psychic business, and I appreciate that you must think I'm a raving madman. But this is what must happen.
CLAIRE: So you're giving me 6000 dollars to give my baby to a couple of strangers in Los Angeles?
MALKIN: 12,000. The other 6 when you arrive in Los Angeles. And they're not strangers, Claire. They're good people.

Umm ... you're taking Mr. Malkin's words out of context - that is, you are picking and choosing what you want to emphasize your point. Contextually speaking, the psychic was telling Claire that she would successfully fly to Los Angeles, give them to a couple in Los Angeles and receive the other $6,000 totaling to $12,000.

This did not happen.

Instead, the plane she arrived on crashed somewhere in the Pacific Ocean and she has been involved in many obstacles regarding her and her baby. She was put into harm's way many times, and many argue whether or not she is dead now.

What you (and others) are implying is that the selected portions are true in a cryptic sense, highly incomprehensive to those who are told these things.

If what you say is true, that is, that only those portions underlined are cryptic, then he's either a liar or a fraud. If he's a true psychic (which is highly suspect because he told Eko he is a fraud) then he lied by falsely implying what I said earlier (e.g.: she did not arrive safely in Los Angeles to give the baby to a couple in Los Angeles).
Or, by using Occam's Razor, he is simply a fraud like he told Eko. He played his part to earn a high wage for working for Widmore/Abaddon/whoever to get her on that plane, or was given a high wage for a couple in L.A.

Now here is the rub of this whole response: Why then put trust in a liar or a fraud? Why then be concerned of Aaron being raised by another?

Darbi

05-09-2008, 03:17 PM

I just don't see how Sawyer or Kate tie into the island mythology related to Claire, Aaron and the Shephard clan - now that we see that Christian is apparently tied into this island mythology.
If Sawyer and Kate were destined to be parents back on the island, wouldn't the Island have given Sawyer super-sperm to impregnate Kate when they had the chance? It seems they went out of the way to show that even on the isle of destiny, that was not their path.

Not necessarily.

One of the most touching storylines the show has given us is Jin's father telling Sun that he wasn't sure that Jin was even his son, but he loved and raised him like his own, and more than anything, wanted Jin's happiness.

Having said that, it's possible that it was the island that kept James and Kate from getting pregnant because it wasn't the right time or circumstances for them to bring a child into the world.

At face value, it would seem James and Kate don't have a strong tie to the island mythology, if at all. But then again, other than through Christian, neither does Jack. However, the narrative has shown that these two have in several instances been protectors of both Aaron and Claire who are very much linked to the island mythology. As designated protectors, that may always be how they're brought directly into that aspect of the story.

On an individual level, protecting Claire and raising Aaron effects their own journeys of redemption. James took some financial responsibility for Clementine, but not the day to day care of that child. On-island, he's taken responsibility to look after Claire, best he could, and get Aaron to safety, which we know he does by handing him over to Kate who takes him off-island. Kate has been shown in the narrative through her fb's mainly to always want a normal family life, and in the future, we've been shown that she's taken her responsibility for Aaron very seriously. Both are getting their second chance; and whether this means they will remain caretakers figuratively and literally of Aaron and Claire, or whether Aaron will be handed back over to Claire one day, we'll have to wait, watch and see.

Bella

05-09-2008, 03:19 PM

Count me in the camp that Malkin was a genuine psychic and that Claire is meant to raise Aaron. I think Christian just meant that things are unfolding as they should.

Me, too. Exactly.
100%
I see your transcript and raise you one! This is what he tells her later in the episode. (The bold underlined text is my emphasis)

CLAIRE: You spent the last 4 months telling me I have to raise the baby myself. Now you're giving me money and saying I don't have to?
MALKIN: I found a couple in Los Angeles who are very eager to adopt. The baby will be safe in their care. Now, I've foreseen. . .
CLAIRE: Heh, Foreseen? I don't even know why I'm here. I'm sorry.
MALKIN: I know this sounds ridiculous, Claire. All this psychic business, and I appreciate that you must think I'm a raving madman. But this is what must happen.
CLAIRE: So you're giving me 6000 dollars to give my baby to a couple of strangers in Los Angeles?
MALKIN: 12,000. The other 6 when you arrive in Los Angeles. And they're not strangers, Claire. They're good people.

Wow... :eek2: Interesting. Perhaps he saw Jack and Kate, and sent Claire on the plane to crash knowing that this is how Jack and Kate would wind up with the baby.

Of course, I've always believed he wanted her to crash, knowing she'd survive, so that she would be forced to raise her own child -- but this certainly puts a new spin on things.

popstalindesign

05-09-2008, 03:24 PM

Umm ... you're taking Mr. Malkin's words out of context - that is, you are picking and choosing what you want to emphasize your point. Contextually speaking, the psychic was telling Claire that she would successfully fly to Los Angeles, give them to a couple in Los Angeles and receive the other $6,000 totaling to $12,000.

This did not happen.

Instead, the plane she arrived on crashed somewhere in the Pacific Ocean and she has been involved in many obstacles regarding her and her baby. She was put into harm's way many times, and many argue whether or not she is dead now.

What you (and others) are implying is that the selected portions are true in a cryptic sense, highly incomprehensive to those who are told these things.

If what you say is true, that is, that only those portions underlined are cryptic, then he's either a liar or a fraud. If he's a true psychic (which is highly suspect because he told Eko he is a fraud) then he lied by falsely implying what I said earlier (e.g.: she did not arrive safely in Los Angeles to give the baby to a couple in Los Angeles).
Or, by using Occam's Razor, he is simply a fraud like he told Eko. He played his part to earn a high wage for working for Widmore/Abaddon/whoever to get her on that plane, or was given a high wage for a couple in L.A.

Now here is the rub of this whole response: Why then put trust in a liar or a fraud? Why then be concerned of Aaron being raised by another?

Actually, what I'm implying is that whether or not Malkin knew about the plane crash, if you take his statements as "prophecy" then Jack and Kate aren't strangers. Aaron is in fact in LA being raised by people who aren't strangers. Another thing about his words is that he never said when she would get to LA (or Aaron for that matter), what's important in context to last week's episode and Malkin's words are twofold—Aaron is in LA (as Malkin stated) and he is being raised by a couple who aren't strangers and could be argued are good people (who have done bad things); again Malkin's words. I don't think it's a stretch that last week's flash forward and the script from "Raised by Another" have some type of link to what's going on.

I'll have to revisit the episode where Malkin talks about being a fraud but he could have said that for any number of reasons, one being that he is indeed a fraud but somehow got it right with Claire. This is Lost, anything is possible.

The Kat

05-09-2008, 03:26 PM

Sawyer & Kate are not tied in with the mythology of the show?

Kate was there with Sawyer when he was visited by the boar.

Sawyer was with Kate when she was visited by the black horse.

The island tells Locke through Christian that Aaron is where he is supposed to be, and at the moment it is in Sawyer's arms. The island tells Jack through Charlie that Aaron is not meant to be raised by him, but nothing is said of Kate.

Sawyer & Kate may not be meant to raise Aaron in the end, but the island is certainly working over-time to put these two together.

Darbi

05-09-2008, 03:29 PM

saska

05-09-2008, 03:30 PM

That's true, The Kat. And Sawyer did hear the whispers.

rove3

05-09-2008, 04:35 PM

What Malkin told Claire was what he needed to convince her to be on Oceanic flight 815. The broader details were not explained (for obvious reasons) and we're just now getting a clearer picture of what he may have seen in his vision.

At any rate, at the end of 'RBA', Claire specifically tells Charlie, "He knew. He knew there was no couple in L.A." In other words, it was important for Claire to be on that particular flight for whatever events needed to unfold.

I agree with this. The psychic knew Claire had resolved to give baby Aaron up for adoption so he concocted the story about a couple in LA for the express purpose of getting her on that plane. I think the psychic knew it was destined to crash thus forcing Claire to raise her own baby.

I don't buy that he foresaw Jack and Kate raising Aaron in LA because, well they're not. Jack messed that up, and I really don't see that a baby being raised by a pill-popping alcoholic is the next best option (to Claire). And that's not meant as a slam on Jack, just stating the condition of his character in the FFs.

lizziefitz

05-09-2008, 05:33 PM

If Malkin's a genuine psychic his flashes could be like Desmond's, jigsaw pieces without a picture that he has to assemble as best he can. So it could be possible that the nice couple in Los Angeles is somewhere in the far future.

But it doesn't sound that way. Malkin talks as if he's actually been in touch with this nice couple, and they've made a specific offer--$12K if Claire goes to Los Angeles and agrees to let them adopt her child. Unless there's some serious time wonkiness going on, it seems very doubtful that Malkin is both speaking of a genuine nice couple and that the couple is any combination of the Oceanic 815 folk.

Zoriah

05-09-2008, 06:25 PM

Pythagoras99

05-09-2008, 06:37 PM

Sunday School Lesson...
Jacob had 12 sons. (13 w/ Benjamin)...

er, that's 12 w/ Benjamin. He was the 12th.

quizzical

05-09-2008, 07:02 PM

He is where he was supposed to be - away from the cabin and about to get off, because the island is in danger.
He must go back after the danger is gone.

Agreed. Or Aaron has some destiny to play off-island, before he returns.

ked

05-09-2008, 09:50 PM

With all the talk on who should raise Aaron, I was thinking... I find it to be extremely sad that Aaron will not remember Charlie. He was so little when Charlie died. I wonder if he has a middle name... I know it sounds dumb but Charlie should be his middle name. And he should be told stories about Charlie, because Charlie truly adored him from the beginning. I know this is kind of off-topic but I just find it all to be really sad. Charlie, Claire and Aaron could have been a beautiful family... and now I hope that at least Claire will live to see her child again, even though Charlie won't.

stefanie_bean

05-09-2008, 09:54 PM

I doubt Aaron was ever supposed to leave the Island. It's pretty apparent that the O6 aren't meant to return to the outside world. All hell breaks loose.

That's how I see it, too. Nor do I think that Kate stole Aaron. It may be that Locke thinks Claire is dead (not unreasonable, seeing as she's hanging out with Christian.)

We already know that Sawyer stayed behind. What if Aaron was "destined" to stay behind, too?

Just because Claire is suppose to raise Aaron does *not* mean someone else (Sawyer? Kate?) can't foster him for awhile. After all, Claire has already left him with "Auntie Sun" and Charlie more than once. But IMO *both* Sawyer and Kate are meant to stay behind - and Kate's taking Aaron off the Island probably is one of the reasons everything's going haywire for the 06 back in "our" world. I don't suspect Kate here of bad motives in taking Aaron off the Island; my assumption is that she is doing what she thinks is best for him (I'm not sure Kate even knows about the prophecy anyway.)

sanfrannan

05-09-2008, 10:31 PM

I think it is really interesting that the theory about Sawyer and Kate raising Aaron is being dismissed by some, but what the psychic told Claire about going to LA meaning Jack and Kate are supposed to raise him is considered real. What's the difference? They are both theories that are a little out there, but I think the one about Sawyer and Kate raising the baby has more to back it up than the other one.

But, I don't believe either one, actually. Definitely the one about the couple in LA is more about grasping at straws than anything else. We have already been told that at least Jack is not supposed to raise Aaron. And we know the psychic said Claire had to raise him. So basically that takes care of that in my opinion. He just wanted her on the plane and there was no couple in LA.

As far as Sawyer and Kate, I think Sawyer is in temporary custody of the child now. I think that Christian meant it when he said Aaron was where he was supposed to be--for now. Not for good.

And if Claire is the only one who is supposed to raise him and the island is involved in this, how come the island seperated them? I just don't get that part.

sk8rpro

05-10-2008, 04:01 AM

Actually, what I'm implying is that whether or not Malkin knew about the plane crash, if you take his statements as "prophecy" then Jack and Kate aren't strangers. Aaron is in fact in LA being raised by people who aren't strangers. Another thing about his words is that he never said when she would get to LA (or Aaron for that matter), what's important in context to last week's episode and Malkin's words are twofold—Aaron is in LA (as Malkin stated) and he is being raised by a couple who aren't strangers and could be argued are good people (who have done bad things); again Malkin's words. I don't think it's a stretch that last week's flash forward and the script from "Raised by Another" have some type of link to what's going on.

I'll have to revisit the episode where Malkin talks about being a fraud but he could have said that for any number of reasons, one being that he is indeed a fraud but somehow got it right with Claire. This is Lost, anything is possible.

I'm not sure if you listen to the official lost podcast, but the question was raised a few podcast episodes ago (in episode 3/20/2008) whether or not it's bad Kate is raising Aaron since he is being raised by another.

Damon: So if you believe that he is a psychic, then yes, the baby is in danger for psychic reasons; and if you believe that he is a con man, then the baby is perfectly fine.

tose123

05-10-2008, 06:05 AM

giulia_ricci

05-11-2008, 05:42 AM

maxaholic

05-11-2008, 12:43 PM

If Sawyer is such a "good people" why is he not raising his own child?

I realize that he cared for Claire and he loves Kate so it would be righteous for him to help raise aaron as he has definitely changed his colors since crashing on the island, but I feel that he had somewhat of a relationship with Cassidy even tho he left her. why wouldn't he want to start over fresh when he returned to get to know her all over again and their daughter.

**I'm a psychic believer. I loved the episode about claire. its was one of my favorites and really gave lost the reasoning why they were there. I was so disappointed in Ecko's flashback when malkin said that he was a fraud. i thought, why would they do that. was everything malkin said to claire a con. but there's no way he would have pursued her like he did if he hadn't "seen" something. So I'm going to stick with Claire being the one to raise aaron.

I know, I know, everyone thinks Claire's dead. I suppose by the two-hour finale, we will know A LOT more!:rolleyes:

stefanie_bean

05-11-2008, 12:51 PM

Something just occurred to me - if Claire truly is gone, how is Sawyer going to *feed* Aaron? I doubt if they have Dharma Infant Formula...

losttvfan

05-12-2008, 10:18 PM

A section from this week's recap by Erika Olson posted at Dark UFO that is relevant to this discussion. She added a section to her review of "Cabin Fever" titled:

REVISITING "SOMETHING NICE BACK HOME"

For those of you who don't keep up with the comments for each post, I wanted to draw your attention to an especially interesting idea that came out of last week's write-up. I had pasted in the dialogue between the psychic and Claire, and after Claire questioned his insistence that she now give her baby to a "couple of strangers in L.A." instead of raise it herself, the psychic replied, "They're not strangers, Claire. They're good people."

What if the psychic not only foresaw the crash (he did insist she go on Flight 815 specifically, remember), but also knew that Aaron would/should end up living with Kate and Jack (or someone else) afterward? The whole "they're not strangers" thing is kind of suspicious in hindsight... because the people who have Aaron in the future ARE in L.A. and are NOT strangers to Claire.

I swear to you, I know that they've had the series planned out for a long time and all, but if they planted that line back in Season One for all of us to freak out over once everything is said and done, well... that is just incredible. I don't know what else to say.

One last thing on the topic of that poor little boy, Aaron... when Christian and Claire told Locke that he's "where he's supposed to be"... he was with Sawyer in the jungle.

Their words could be interpreted many ways:

1) He's supposed to remain with Sawyer on the Island.
2) He's supposed to remain with Sawyer OFF of the Island, and Sawyer was supposed to leave and end up raising him with Kate, but for some reason didn't.
3) He's supposed to be with Sawyer in order for Sawyer to go back to the beach and hand him over to Kate.

Since we know that Future Hurley and Dead Charlie told Jack that he was "not supposed to raise him," and since we know that Future Hurley and Future Jack will both try to get back to the Island, what are we to make of Aaron remaining with Kate? From what we've seen, Kate isn't feeling any guilt whatsoever for having Aaron, nor is she being haunted by visions urging her to return. I guess that's why "What's Up With Aaron?" is one of the biggest mysteries on the show.

rove3

05-12-2008, 11:15 PM

Hmmm, that's very interesting losttvfan, thanks for sharing that review. If #2 ends up being what was intended, that Aaron was meant to be with Sawyer off the island then that would also tie in nicely with the whole Alice in Wonderland, topsy turvy theme of the FF. Jack and Sawyer are not where they are supposed to be, i.e. Sawyer is supposed to be off the island (with Kate and Aaron?) and Jack is supposed to be on the island playing big brother to Claire.

Another review I read connected the scenes where (in the FF) Jack trips over the Millenium Falcon and utters Sawyer's signature line - the Millenium Falcon of course being Han Solo's ship and Sawyer often being compared to Han as the "scoundrel" gone good. The second scene was the one where Sawyer tells Miles to keep away from Claire and Miles responds by saying, "What are you, her brother?" The point being of course that he's not her brother but Jack is. Tie this in with Charlie's warning to Jack, via Hurley, that Jack is not supposed to be raising Aaron. Two men seemingly living each others lives? Could these two scenes just be a coincidence? I think the writers were very deliberate in the way they wrote those scenes. The FF is topsy turvy, nothing is as it should be and now the universe is trying to "course correct" hence the ghostly visits by Charlie and Christian. Anyway, just a theory.