Hurley asks Why Ben killed all the DI people and He says he didnt. The Hostiles did but it wsnt his decision.

Thoughts?

Well, we know for sure Ben killed his dad. But, he did come back to the camp and find Richard alive. Hummmmmm.

Ben will probably say he was just acting on Jacob's orders, since Ben used to be the chosen one...

We know that the whole thing wasn't Ben's initiative, it was shown in that episode where the Dharma people were gassed. Ben killed his Dad but the whole thing seems to have been the initiative of the pre-Ben Others who needed/wanted to wipe them out.

Ben will probably say he was just acting on Jacob's orders, since Ben used to be the chosen one...

That's exactly what I thought to.

Ben will probably say he was just acting on Jacob's orders, since Ben used to be the chosen one...
He might say that but at the time he wasn't a leader, he probably didn't know who Jacob was. He chose to side with the 'Hostiles' in the purge but it would have happened with or without him from what I remember about that episode.

Yeah, that's interesting. He told Widmore "you killed my daughter" and Widmore said, "no, YOU killed your daughter".

Wonder if this is a bit more of the same. "I didn't kill them - but I didn't stop the people who DID kill them."

I happen to believe Ben is saying this truth.

This is one of the most mind-blogging things of this show: first they make us distrust Ben completely. Then all of a sudden he chooses truth over lies, as that would save his life and everybody else's. Except when he's trying to manipulate people, that is - for example, when he said Alex wasn't his "real daughter" and he didn't love her.

Sometimes I feel like flipping a coin to know whether Ben is lying or not.

Ben will probably say he was just acting on Jacob's orders, since Ben used to be the chosen one...

That's exactly what I was thinking too!

He might say that but at the time he wasn't a leader, he probably didn't know who Jacob was. He chose to side with the 'Hostiles' in the purge but it would have happened with or without him from what I remember about that episode.

Yeah, I think he helped in some way, maybe left the sonic fence "unlocked." He also said something to the effect that he wasn't always the leader. I've thought Richard was the leader up until the purge, then once Ben murdered his father he became the new leader.

Yeah, I think he helped in some way, maybe left the sonic fence "unlocked." He also said something to the effect that he wasn't always the leader. I've thought Richard was the leader up until the purge, then once Ben murdered his father he became the new leader.

He definitely helped, he betrayed the Dharma people and killed his own father. Perhaps that act of sacrifice, being able to shed his entire past like that, was what allowed him to become the leader, to be chosen.

He definitely helped, he betrayed the Dharma people and killed his own father. Perhaps that act of sacrifice, being able to shed his entire past like that, was what allowed him to become the leader, to be chosen.

That makes sense, and follows the pattern that Locke was supposed to follow. Hmmm...

That makes sense, and follows the pattern that Locke was supposed to follow. Hmmm...

ooh, true true.

I think Ben was told by Jacob to destroy them. I believe, much like Locke, he visited the cabin and asked the very same "How do I save the island?" question.

He definitely helped, he betrayed the Dharma people and killed his own father. Perhaps that act of sacrifice, being able to shed his entire past like that, was what allowed him to become the leader, to be chosen.

Yes, he proved that he would do anything for the island. Then Locke was asked to do the same. Only he didn't - Sawyer did his dirty work. I wonder how that will play out if Richard or whoever is really in charge finds out the truth. I'd love it if Sawyer ended up the island leader. Yeah, there's a new sheriff in town! :police:

I think Richard orchestrated it, but Ben made it happen. So he's just as guilty.

Yeah, I think he helped in some way, maybe left the sonic fence "unlocked." He also said something to the effect that he wasn't always the leader. I've thought Richard was the leader up until the purge, then once Ben murdered his father he became the new leader.

Weren't the Hostiles able to get by the sonic fence before? When Ben had just come to the island they were under attack at the school? I don't think they needed Ben to do that for them. I think we are going to find out that those in Dharma deserved to die but there was probably a list of people not to kill.

I think Ben became the leader when he killed his father. I think his tumor signaled the end of his reign and they all knew it. Even Juliet realized that when she told Amelia they were in trouble (A Lost Moment) and was going to show her Ben's x-ray. Ben was supposedly looking for his replacement when he said to the hostiles when Locke couldn't kill his father -"he's not who we thought he was".

So is Locke suppose to take over Ben's off island activities or does he join Richard in being Locke's lieutenant?

Who did Ben replace? Richard seemed to be on the lookout for special people but I don't think he is the leader.

Destiny is a fickle bitch! Love it.

He might say that but at the time he wasn't a leader, he probably didn't know who Jacob was. He chose to side with the 'Hostiles' in the purge but it would have happened with or without him from what I remember about that episode.
Well, at the time of the purge, it certainly seemed like Ben was the leader. Richard was taking orders from him then. Whether Jacob ordered the purge, I guess we don't know. I'm hoping that Jacob is better than that.

Could Keamy and crew get shifted back to....let's say prior to the Purge (http://lostpedia.com/wiki/The_Purge) and Keamy and crew are really the Hostilies? Just a thought.

Hm.

Event #1: The Purge. As I recall from "the Man Behind The Curtain", Ben was (or at least appeared to be) fully complicit in the events of the Purge. We know for sure that he killed his father, and he is at least partially responsible for the deaths of the other DI people. I wonder... would the Purge have happened if Ben hadn't been playing double agent? I have a feeling that it wouldn't have.

Event #2: Keamy shooting Alex. Again, Ben is (at least partially) responsible for this. The supposed master manipulator miscalculated - he knew Keamy's history, and "what kind of person he was", he should have considered that when talking to him. Also, saying that "any of my people would be prepared to die for the island" was a stupid thing to say - obviously he hadn't even considered the fact that Alex might be the hostage. Alex being shot is on Keamy's conscience (if he has one). But the fact that she was in that situation? That is on Ben's conscience (if he hadn't sent her, Danielle and Karl away, they wouldn't have been ambushed and they'd all be alive).

I think Ben was told by Jacob to destroy them. I believe, much like Locke, he visited the cabin and asked the very same "How do I save the island?" question.

Which means Dharma were the true evil, and Ben was simply trying to do good.

Yes, I expect someone to fire at me, but please do it, there's no arguing about this. I was saying that he didn't kill them from day one, and that if he did help kill them, he did that because the Island told him to do it in self-defense.

I think it was Richard, among other Hostiles we don't yet know (if there are any alive)...

I also believe that Benjamin had to kill his father, just like Locke had to kill his...

He chose to side with the 'Hostiles' in the purge but it would have happened with or without him from what I remember about that episode.

I've thought Richard was the leader up until the purge, then once Ben murdered his father he became the new leader.

Yes, he proved that he would do anything for the island. Then Locke was asked to do the same. Only he didn't - Sawyer did his dirty work.

Which means Dharma were the true evil, and Ben was simply trying to do good.
... the Island told him to do it in self-defense.
I also believe that Benjamin had to kill his father, just like Locke had to kill his...

You all make excellent points. I agree w/ those who say the Leader must "prove" himself somehow. I also liked what someone said about why Ben might have said "He's not who we thought he was," although much of that was ALSO because Ben was trying to manipulate his followers, because he felt his leadership role slipping away.

I too hope that Jacob--whoever he may be--is one of the "good" ones, but it wouldn't surprise me if it turned out to be a supernatural entity that enjoyed playing with people for its own amusement. (And no, I'm not saying it's a demon or giving it any kind of name...just sharing some meandering thoughts.)

Yeah, with all the twists and turns I wouldn't be surprised if Jacob was "only" an entity who...

Well, let me simplify it and put it this way- The Island has powers. Powers of nature, above all else. Some other supernatural phenomena too... Dharma came there because of that phenomena, however- Dharma was playing with the destiny of mankind. I mean that- As in the WHOLE world...

Now, I am absolutely sure that the Island has very little regard to the outside world... It exists in and with itself and tries to protect ITSELF, and possibly, though I am not sure, the humans who reside there (the ones Island likes)...

To me it seems that Benjamin (maybe someone else too, we don't know yet) was the one chosen to protect the Island... But with him saying all the things he said in this episode (yes, his daughter was murdered merely hours before the walk through the jungle happened, I am aware of that), it is very possible that he was just SAID so, like Locke, that maybe all that leadership stuff was a part of the Dharma psychological eXperiment... Or maybe time-travel, or even something else...

Anyways, back from this digression, I am pretty sure that Benjamin, as a very smart human, is not protecting only the Island, but humanity as well... And somehow I have this feeling that Island doesn't care about humanity that much... Ever since CS and everything else appeared, it was only the Island's buffer, not the protection for the Losties...

What is up with Ben? He seems so passive now, is it a ploy? In his flashforward with Widmore and Sayid he still seems very much in control and invested in the island.