So in this episode we had both Richard & Abbadon checking in on Locke at various points in his life, presumably to (eventually) get him to the Island. The question is are they working together? Or are they two separate forces, that can influence people to their side of the "war" but can't directly participate in the fight themselves?

I think they work for two different entities. Richard belongs to the group that recruited Ben to their side; Abbadon works for the group that wants to apprehend Ben.

Abbadon works for the group that wants to apprehend Ben.

That's what TPTB lead us to believe with the scenes when he was talking to Hurley and Naomi, but after seeing this episode I'm not so sure that Abbadon is strickly working for Widmore or (potentially) is even a bad guy.

1) Naomi: The scene seemingly showed that he was responsible for brining everyone onto the Freighter, but the only thing it decisively shows is that he wanted the Fan 4 to get to the Island and be protected. Hardly menacing, especially as with each passing episode it seems that these four were unaware of Keamy's full intent and mission. In fact it seems that these four unique individuals were chosen specifically because they would play a part in helping the Losties survive the coming battle.

2) Hurley: This scene seemingly showed Abbadon questioning Hurley because he wanted to find the Island (or the fate of the Freighter), but all Abbadon really asks is "Are they still alive?" What if this is Abbadon trying to motivate Hurley into returning to the Island much in the same way that Charlie is. "Are the still alive? Why aren't you helping them?"

The question remains, why was Abbadon trying to lead Locke onto the Island if he is destined to be on the same side as Richard (and in absentia Ben)?? Locke has been chosen to replace Ben, but were these 2 men working together to put him into this position or are they merely trying to influence his stewardship??

That's what TPTB lead us to believe with the scenes when he was talking to Hurley and Naomi, but after seeing this episode I'm not so sure that Abbadon is strickly working for Widmore or (potentially) is even a bad guy.

1) Naomi: The scene seemingly showed that he was responsible for brining everyone onto the Freighter, but the only thing it decisively shows is that he wanted the Fan 4 to get to the Island and be protected. Hardly menacing, especially as with each passing episode it seems that these four were unaware of Keamy's full intent and mission. In fact it seems that these four unique individuals were chosen specifically because they would play a part in helping the Losties survive the coming battle.

2) Hurley: This scene seemingly showed Abbadon questioning Hurley because he wanted to find the Island (or the fate of the Freighter), but all Abbadon really asks is "Are they still alive?" What if this is Abbadon trying to motivate Hurley into returning to the Island much in the same way that Charlie is. "Are the still alive? Why aren't you helping them?"

The question remains, why was Abbadon trying to lead Locke onto the Island if he is destined to be on the same side as Richard (and in absentia Ben)?? Locke has been chosen to replace Ben, but were these 2 men working together to put him into this position or are they merely trying to influence his stewardship??

I agree. He seems to be more like an agent of fate or something. Maybe Widmore doesn't know who he is when he hires him, and he only works for him in order to make sure the 4 get to the island.

I agree. He seems to be more like an agent of fate or something. Maybe Widmore doesn't know who he is when he hires him, and he only works for him in order to make sure the 4 get to the island.

Perhaps the two Island forces are at war with each other, they aren't able to act directly, but only through an Acolyte. Abbadon had control and it was through his acolyte Widmore that he "ruled" the Island, but then Richard and his acolyte Ben usurped control of the Island. Ben has fallen out of communion with the Island, Locke is the new "chosen" one, so both men will work to influence him in some way to their own purposes.

They are quite literally the light and dark players in the backgammon game... as it were, trying to control their "pieces".

Perhaps the two Island forces are at war with each other, they aren't able to act directly, but only through an Acolyte. Abbadon had control and it was through his acolyte Widmore that he "ruled" the Island, but then Richard and his acolyte Ben usurped control of the Island. Ben has fallen out of communion with the Island, Locke is the new "chosen" one, so both men will work to influence him in some way to their own purposes.

They are quite literally the light and dark players in the backgammon game... as it were, trying to control their "pieces".


you said it best.

:hesaid:
I think there are a whole mess of people working on behalf of this Island-- Abbadon, Richard, Mrs. Hawking, Brother Campbell, Malkin, Christian, Isaac of Uluru... all possibilities.

So in this episode we had both Richard & Abbadon checking in on Locke at various points in his life, presumably to (eventually) get him to the Island. The question is are they working together? Or are they two separate forces, that can influence people to their side of the "war" but can't directly participate in the fight themselves?

No pun intended but they could be the black and white references we often see associated with this show. They seem to revolve around Locke as well The Backgammon story he tells Walt, His eyes being white and black in Claires dream maybe they signify Richard and Abbadon battle for him.

His eyes being white and black in Claires dream

I don't remember that...what episode was that from? :confused: I gotta check that out! :biggrin:

I think they work for two different entities. Richard belongs to the group that recruited Ben to their side; Abbadon works for the group that wants to apprehend Ben.

I'm not so sure those are mutually exclusive groups.

I don't remember that...what episode was that from? :confused: I gotta check that out! :biggrin:

It is in episode 1x10 Raised by Another

That's what TPTB lead us to believe with the scenes when he was talking to Hurley and Naomi, but after seeing this episode I'm not so sure that Abbadon is strickly working for Widmore or (potentially) is even a bad guy.

1) Naomi: The scene seemingly showed that he was responsible for brining everyone onto the Freighter, but the only thing it decisively shows is that he wanted the Fan 4 to get to the Island and be protected. Hardly menacing, especially as with each passing episode it seems that these four were unaware of Keamy's full intent and mission. In fact it seems that these four unique individuals were chosen specifically because they would play a part in helping the Losties survive the coming battle.

2) Hurley: This scene seemingly showed Abbadon questioning Hurley because he wanted to find the Island (or the fate of the Freighter), but all Abbadon really asks is "Are they still alive?" What if this is Abbadon trying to motivate Hurley into returning to the Island much in the same way that Charlie is. "Are the still alive? Why aren't you helping them?"

The question remains, why was Abbadon trying to lead Locke onto the Island if he is destined to be on the same side as Richard (and in absentia Ben)?? Locke has been chosen to replace Ben, but were these 2 men working together to put him into this position or are they merely trying to influence his stewardship??

I see what you mean now. I do agree that Abbadon may not be someone intent on decimating the losties. But I'm pretty sure he was interested in apprehending Ben. When he spoke with Naomi, he seemed to understand what the mission was (to get Ben.) Naomi kept questioning the possibility of Flight 815 survivors, but he assured her that there were none. I interpreted this to mean that the mission may include eliminating the remaining members of Ben's group, the inhabitants of the island. So given this, I tend to believe that Abbadon is or at least was working for Widmore. As for him being a bad guy, I'm not sure yet. To what extent he is working for Widmore is something we haven't seen much of.

And something else. When Richard came to see Locke at his foster home, Locke was shown a variety of objects. When Locke chose a knife among other things, Richard was disappointed. In contrast, Abbadon suggested a walkabout, which requires that he possess the skills to handle the use of knives. Well, this is something to think about, at least.



Perhaps the two Island forces are at war with each other, they aren't able to act directly, but only through an Acolyte. Abbadon had control and it was through his acolyte Widmore that he "ruled" the Island, but then Richard and his acolyte Ben usurped control of the Island. Ben has fallen out of communion with the Island, Locke is the new "chosen" one, so both men will work to influence him in some way to their own purposes.

They are quite literally the light and dark players in the backgammon game... as it were, trying to control their "pieces".

Your last comment is very interesting.

:hesaid:
I think there are a whole mess of people working on behalf of this Island-- Abbadon, Richard, Mrs. Hawking, Brother Campbell, Malkin, Christian, Isaac of Uluru... all possibilities.
:hesaid:

Agreed, except I don't think Christian was involved... so much as I think Christian's body is... now being used by Smokey.

But... also add Penny and Charles. I think Penny was at the monestary to see Brother Campbell as well as to pick up wine... I think he called her to come.

And something else. When Richard came to see Locke at his foster home, Locke was shown a variety of objects. When Locke chose a knife among other things, Richard was disappointed. In contrast, Abbadon suggested a walkabout, which requires that he possess the skills to handle the use of knives. Well, this is something to think about, at least.

Those two scenes really drove home for me that we are dealing with two opposing forces in Abbadon and Richard.

I see what you mean now. I do agree that Abbadon may not be someone intent on decimating the losties. But I'm pretty sure he was interested in apprehending Ben. When he spoke with Naomi, he seemed to understand what the mission was (to get Ben.) Naomi kept questioning the possibility of Flight 815 survivors, but he assured her that there were none. I interpreted this to mean that the mission may include eliminating the remaining members of Ben's group, the inhabitants of the island. So given this, I tend to believe that Abbadon is or at least was working for Widmore. As for him being a bad guy, I'm not sure yet. To what extent he is working for Widmore is something we haven't seen much of.

See that was one of the things that bothered me at first too, but I think it might just be TPTB trying to make us think that Abbadon was evil. I don't really want to apply the terms "good" and "evil" to Abbadon and Richard because I think it's far more complicated than that, but it'll have to do for the moment.

If we go back and examine the scene where he's talking to Naomi, his only concern was that Naomi get the team in and out safely. We are supposed to assume that he had a hand in picking the rest of the crew for Widmore, but we only are actually shown that he wanted those four people on that Island. The question is why? Perhaps they are Abbadon's "special children" and he is delivering them to the Island to help Locke, more so than them being useful in capturing Benjamin Linus.

And something else. When Richard came to see Locke at his foster home, Locke was shown a variety of objects. When Locke chose a knife among other things, Richard was disappointed. In contrast, Abbadon suggested a walkabout, which requires that he possess the skills to handle the use of knives. Well, this is something to think about, at least.

Absolutely correct, I think this may play into the larger possibility that these "special children" are in fact the reincarnations of the original inhabitants/combatants on the Island. The choosing of the knife by Locke could have simply been an indication that he was not yet ready for his "destiny".
100%
:hesaid:
I think there are a whole mess of people working on behalf of this Island-- Abbadon, Richard, Mrs. Hawking, Brother Campbell, Malkin, Christian, Isaac of Uluru... all possibilities.

I think it's certainly possible that many of these people have had a hand in shaping the destinies, directing many of the Losties to the Island. Through their Acolytes I think the forces would have touched many souls and influenced many people.

it honestly seems like richard plays a bigger role in lost than we think.. hmm.. he's that hostile that led ben to kill all of the DI... right??

That's what TPTB lead us to believe with the scenes when he was talking to Hurley and Naomi, but after seeing this episode I'm not so sure that Abbadon is strickly working for Widmore or (potentially) is even a bad guy.

1) Naomi: The scene seemingly showed that he was responsible for brining everyone onto the Freighter, but the only thing it decisively shows is that he wanted the Fan 4 to get to the Island and be protected. Hardly menacing, especially as with each passing episode it seems that these four were unaware of Keamy's full intent and mission. In fact it seems that these four unique individuals were chosen specifically because they would play a part in helping the Losties survive the coming battle.

2) Hurley: This scene seemingly showed Abbadon questioning Hurley because he wanted to find the Island (or the fate of the Freighter), but all Abbadon really asks is "Are they still alive?" What if this is Abbadon trying to motivate Hurley into returning to the Island much in the same way that Charlie is. "Are the still alive? Why aren't you helping them?"

The question remains, why was Abbadon trying to lead Locke onto the Island if he is destined to be on the same side as Richard (and in absentia Ben)?? Locke has been chosen to replace Ben, but were these 2 men working together to put him into this position or are they merely trying to influence his stewardship??

I agree. He seems to be more like an agent of fate or something. Maybe Widmore doesn't know who he is when he hires him, and he only works for him in order to make sure the 4 get to the island.

Exile236, your points are brilliant. There seem to be strong arguments for Richard/Abbadon being opposing forces, as well as strong arguments they are on the same side. That's the conundrum of Lost. Who's on the light side, and who's on the dark side. I have a feeling it won't be clear until the end of the show.

it honestly seems like richard plays a bigger role in lost than we think.. hmm.. he's that hostile that led ben to kill all of the DI... right??

Well I think Richard was ultimately the one pulling the strings, but was he the leader of the Hostiles before Ben... IDK... it's possible Ben had to prove himself worthy (by killing his father) before he was made the new "leader".

ETA: I do believe Ben when he said he wasn't the one that ordered the Purge, he merely participated in it.