Wonder what bearing the doctors body took to the island as that seems to have caused the time difference between him still being alive on the boat but washed up dead on the shore...(<>..<>)

If the doc's body washed up on the beach before he died, wouldn't the helicopter actually still be on the freighter when it landed on the island?

So, when Faraday called his boat after he landed, they really should have been asking how he was on the island when he was really still on the freighter.:undecide:

Maybe the corpse was a bad twin.

It seems like a paradox.

If Faraday called the freighter and was able to prevent the doctor's death, the doctor would never have washed up on shore to cause Faraday to call the freighter. he wouldn't have called, the doctor would die, loop.

I guess it's a good thing no one took him seriously when he morse coded about the doctor. It'd be too hard to explain.

It's one thing to have a paradox that you can unravel.

It's another thing to have a paradox that doesn't unravel.

Chalk it up to all this being fiction. Bad fiction really.

It's like untying a knot on a rope only to have it appear somewhere else on the rope. Hmmm?

This is why I hate time travel. It never makes sense. Ever. There are always consequences that change the future which could have changed the fact that time travel would never have occurred in the first place which would mean that the future would not have been changed which means that time travel would occur...and then you have an endless loop of impossibilities. I really hope that Lost uses minimal time travel in explaining everything. (I would say no time travel, but I think it's kind of proven that there is indeed some type of time travel involved)

I think the island is a few days in the future of the freighter. And Dan's message about the doctor seems to have had no affect on the doctor's fate - Keamy just grabbed a guy that was standing near him to make his point.

I think it had something to do with the bearing the body floated in on. The Sat phone doesn't get distorted by the time for some reason.

What if there is a difference in heading towards the island on the proper bearing and simply drifting in randomly?

Maybe since the body is simply floating towards the island it was caught in different time delay than the chopper which flew along the designated safe bearing. Remember when the heli deviated from the course, Desmond was messed up, and it was morning. Along the "safe route" the helicopter leaves near dusk(?) and arrives on the island after dark which would make sense.

Also, if the heli left shortly after Sayid, and they were following the same course, wouldn't they have seen him in the boat? I know it was night, and they might not have been looking, but they beat him to the island so they must have crossed paths at some point.
100%
I think it had something to do with the bearing the body floated in on. The Sat phone doesn't get distorted by the time for some reason.


Argh! You beat me to it. Great minds think alike I guess!:biggrin:

I guess we have to assume that the direct route via the bearing is the only way to travel to and from the island without suffering "side affects" which must be time related. The currents that brought the body to the island obviously weren't on the correct line so the body was able to arrive before he the doctor was killed. Think wormholes etc.

If the doc's body washed up on the beach before he died, wouldn't the helicopter actually still be on the freighter when it landed on the island?

So, when Faraday called his boat after he landed, they really should have been asking how he was on the island when he was really still on the freighter.:undecide:

Different places implies different times. "Before" and "after" are relative, when there is a spacial separation. This is true even for "flat" space-time (aka "Minkowski Space":biggrin:). So imagine how much more true it must be considering the temporal and spacial fluctuations that are obviously going on around the island.

As for paradox, yes it would be a paradox if his call prevented the doctor from getting killed. Therefore his call couldn't have prevented the doctor from getting killed. And it didn't. There's no paradox.

I didn't get the feeling, when Omar mentioned to Doc that his corpse had washed up on the beach, that Doc was all that distressed by this. I'm thinking this isn't simply bad writing but is actually pointing to something more sinister than time discrepancies. What if the Doc's body really did wash up on shore, but, Doc got replaced on the boat somehow? I mean, he just goes, "but I'm the doctor." I would be a little freaked out. Plus, we should probably assume that the doctor knows about the time discrepancy, so don't you think that he'd get that he was about to die, if he knew about it?

Maybe the island is manifesting itself in mysterious ways again?

Just thinking out loud.

"The universe, unfortunately, has a way of course correcting."

That's why there will never be a time-travel paradox on Lost. If the doctor washes up on the island with his throat cut, no amount of trying to prevent it from happening will prevent it from happening. The universe will make certain that the doctor's throat is somehow cut, and that he washes up on the island.

yes...
island: "past"
boat: "future"

SAT phones: facilitate communication across time frames

doc: killed in "future", body drifted into "past" on wrong bearing.

"Past" losties, with body, communicated in morse code with boaties who were at a "future" time point just before the doc got killed. "Future" boaties said he's ok, then doc was killed and ended up dead in the "past".

If you try to think too deeply about it, you'll just get a headache.. It's not the doc's "past" and "future". It's about that weird time warp around the island. Having the doc show up with his stitches is the bizarre part, isn't it? Imo, that was a plot point to foreshadow the nature of the weird time warp.
100%
Different places implies different times. "Before" and "after" are relative, when there is a spacial separation. This is true even for "flat" space-time (aka "Minkowski Space":biggrin:). So imagine how much more true it must be considering the temporal and spacial fluctuations that are obviously going on around the island..
Yes... that's the gist of it.

"The universe, unfortunately, has a way of course correcting."

That's why there will never be a time-travel paradox on Lost. If the doctor washes up on the island with his throat cut, no amount of trying to prevent it from happening will prevent it from happening. The universe will make certain that the doctor's throat is somehow cut, and that he washes up on the island.


Excellent point. I was going round and round with this in my brain, and you've explained what I couldn't put in words.

I guess Ezra J Sharkinton wasn't around to feast off the good ol' Doc... though I assume, as a sea creature, she must be having loads of fun in the waters around the island.


Speaking of that, i guess there must be some 'ring' of this time/space crap around the island, but like a halo. Because well, Mike, Saywer, Jin... they werent affected by it, and hell, Des just kept bumpin around like he was in a snowglobe...

Does that mean there's many ways IN (tho not all will get you there same time/place) but only ONE way OUT?

This is why I hate time travel. It never makes sense. Ever. There are always consequences that change the future which could have changed the fact that time travel would never have occurred in the first place which would mean that the future would not have been changed which means that time travel would occur...and then you have an endless loop of impossibilities. I really hope that Lost uses minimal time travel in explaining everything. (I would say no time travel, but I think it's kind of proven that there is indeed some type of time travel involved)
High five. I don't understand how the doctor thing can be explained. Silly thing is that you can contact people using the phones, and you get a reply (from the past / future) there and then, makes no sense in my head.

What happened to Dead Doc, is the same thing that happened to the 15 rabbit in the Orchid Orientation Video.

"The universe, unfortunately, has a way of course correcting."

That's why there will never be a time-travel paradox on Lost. If the doctor washes up on the island with his throat cut, no amount of trying to prevent it from happening will prevent it from happening. The universe will make certain that the doctor's throat is somehow cut, and that he washes up on the island.


I think course correction has something to do with Michael not dying.
Just like Charlie was going to die, not matter what, because it was his time - Michael's not going to die yet, no matter what, until it's time.

High five. I don't understand how the doctor thing can be explained. Silly thing is that you can contact people using the phones, and you get a reply (from the past / future) there and then, makes no sense in my head.
I think most of us have been assuming that the sat phones have been unaffected by any time warping, but I think we learned in this ep that this is not the case. Daniel tapped out his morse code message at least a day ago, at night, and Omar was picking it up now, in the daytime. I think the message was unquestionably time shifted.

That of course adds an big additional wrinkle to the rocket experiment, as we don't know the time offset between Daniel and Regina during the radio conversation.

It seems to me like what's going on is analogous to atmospheric refraction when looking through a telescope. There's nothing to block the light signal from coming through, but the turbulence of the atmosphere is going to shift it now to the left, now to the right, unpredictably. The 305 degree corridor may be something like the eye of the storm.

I thought the body had washed in on the wrong bearing, while the chopper was coming in on the course dictated by Faraday. The doctor thing has been really bothering me what with the stiches coming after the scar. CC/DL said something about the doctor and the wrong bearing and side effects. DL said pay close attention to what Faraday says there, even the throwaway lines.

So, I checked:

(On the beach, the living doctor examines the dead one.)
JACK: His throat was slit.
(No one speaks.)
JACK: Know anything about that?
(Charlotte stays silent.)
DANIEL: No. Uh, he was fine when I last saw him.
JACK: Which was when?
DANIEL: When? "When" is kind of a relative term.
CHARLOTTE: We don't know anything about this.
JULIET: Any luck fixing the sat phone?
DANIEL: Uh, yeah. Sorry, no. The, uh, the mic was... smashed up pretty good. Best-case scenario, we'd only be able to broadcast tone squelch. Beeps and boops.
BERNARD: Well, yeah, but you could still use it as sort of a telegraph, right?
DANIEL: If I had some strips of ferrous metal, uh, a 9-volt battery clip and some... wiring.
KATE: We got a bunch of stuff that we salvaged from the plane.
DANIEL: Great.
KATE: I'll show you where it is.
(They go away, leaving Jack, Charlotte, and Bernard.)
JACK: Bernard, you got a second?



I guess the "when" is supposed to explain it all.

As for paradox, yes it would be a paradox if his call prevented the doctor from getting killed. Therefore his call couldn't have prevented the doctor from getting killed. And it didn't. There's no paradox.
Thats true, before the doc is killed they say he they got a call from Dan sying he's dead and the doc replies
'well i'm the doctor!'

"The universe, unfortunately, has a way of course correcting."

That's why there will never be a time-travel paradox on Lost. If the doctor washes up on the island with his throat cut, no amount of trying to prevent it from happening will prevent it from happening. The universe will make certain that the doctor's throat is somehow cut, and that he washes up on the island.


That's such a great point. Just needed to say that. Somehow it makes sense if you see it that way.

If the doc's body washed up on the beach before he died, wouldn't the helicopter actually still be on the freighter when it landed on the island?

So, when Faraday called his boat after he landed, they really should have been asking how he was on the island when he was really still on the freighter.:undecide:


The only reason I can come up with is that the body drifted from that boat and crossed that barrier around the island thus sending it forward in time to land on the beach before it happened. I guess for something to arrive on the island or leave the island in the same time it must be on that correct heading that Daniel has instructed everyone to use. I believe when Desmond and Sayid flew back with Lapidus they were unable to keep that heading that is why their flight seemed a bit off in time.

The only reason I can come up with is that the body drifted from that boat and crossed that barrier around the island thus sending it forward in time to land on the beach before it happened. I guess for something to arrive on the island or leave the island in the same time it must be on that correct heading that Daniel has instructed everyone to use. I believe when Desmond and Sayid flew back with Lapidus they were unable to keep that heading that is why their flight seemed a bit off in time.


I think you can be alive in your past, but dead in your future, but not the other way around. So that that the island was the doctor's future from the point where he resided on the boat timewise. Ha! Does that make sense?

I think this is the real reason why Michael can't die yet. Because the course dictates that Michael exists at some point in the future beyond where he resides now.

I thought this scene was very telling and intriguing. I like how they wrapped this loose end up because I was figuring he was already dead.

Ok, so to clear things up, this episode overlaps with last week's episode "Something nice back home." We see Faraday send Morse code and then we just heard Keamy's guy receive the code. This was shown so we know these episodes were mostly happening at the same time. (I hope Lostpedia's timeline gets this right)

Anyway, what are we to make of the Doctor ends up washing ashore....Faraday asks the freighter....freighter says Doctor is fine....Keamy's guy tells Doc his throat will be cut....Doc's throat gets cut...Doc get thrown overboard....Doctor washes ashore....repeat.

I'm pretty good at figuring things out and expanding on ideas, but please explain this to me. Is it simply the time it takes the Doc to travel through the barrier or is it something else entirely. I'm having trouble with this one.

Please help, thanks.

Ok, so to clear things up, this episode overlaps with last week's episode "Something nice back home." We see Faraday send Morse code and then we just heard Keamy's guy receive the code. This was shown so we know these episodes were mostly happening at the same time. (I hope Lostpedia's timeline gets this right)

Anyway, what are we to make of the Doctor ends up washing ashore....Faraday asks the freighter....freighter says Doctor is fine....Keamy's guy tells Doc his throat will be cut....Doc's throat gets cut...Doc get thrown overboard....Doctor washes ashore....repeat.

I'm pretty good at figuring things out and expanding on ideas, but please explain this to me. Is it simply the time it takes the Doc to travel through the barrier or is it something else entirely. I'm having trouble with this one.

Please help, thanks.
"To clear things up"....LOL.

Hey, no charge for this reply. ;) I say this with love...your post made me smile. :)

I think most of us have been assuming that the sat phones have been unaffected by any time warping, but I think we learned in this ep that this is not the case. Daniel tapped out his morse code message at least a day ago, at night, and Omar was picking it up now, in the daytime. I think the message was unquestionably time shifted.

That of course adds an big additional wrinkle to the rocket experiment, as we don't know the time offset between Daniel and Regina during the radio conversation.

It seems to me like what's going on is analogous to atmospheric refraction when looking through a telescope. There's nothing to block the light signal from coming through, but the turbulence of the atmosphere is going to shift it now to the left, now to the right, unpredictably. The 305 degree corridor may be something like the eye of the storm.

Obviously, people on the island send a message -> it goes out towards the boat, it gets sent back in time -> they get the message before the doc is dead -> they reply -> it gets sent towards the island -> it goes... forwards in time... -> they end up getting the message straight after they sent their own message.

But that doesn't actually work out in terms of "time" because it suggests that there are two "times" happening at once, which doesn't make any sense.

High five. I don't understand how the doctor thing can be explained. Silly thing is that you can contact people using the phones, and you get a reply (from the past / future) there and then, makes no sense in my head.

It's been pretty well spelled out by now - You physically warp through time when you move through the strange field surrounding the Island. Depending on the path you take through the field, you can move differing amounts forwards or backwards through time.


We saw this with the rocket probe and the Des/Sayid chopper flight to the freighter.


There is a 'safe' bearing through the field which Faraday calculated. This is the bearing that the chopper sticks to when flying in/out. (The same concept was referenced in respect to the sub with the sonar beacon on the Island to guide it in.) The chopper deviated a little from the bearing and ended up landing about a day 'late' on the freighter.

The sat phones seem unaffected by the distortion. So Daniel sent his morse code to the freighter before the doc got killed, later the doc is killed and his body floats towards the Island getting warped backwards in time as it goes, turning up before the message.

It's been pretty well spelled out by now - You physically warp through time when you move through the strange field surrounding the Island. Depending on the path you take through the field, you can move differing amounts forwards or backwards through time.


We saw this with the rocket probe and the Des/Sayid chopper flight to the freighter.


There is a 'safe' bearing through the field which Faraday calculated. This is the bearing that the chopper sticks to when flying in/out. (The same concept was referenced in respect to the sub with the sonar beacon on the Island to guide it in.) The chopper deviated a little from the bearing and ended up landing about a day 'late' on the freighter.

The sat phones seem unaffected by the distortion. So Daniel sent his morse code to the freighter before the doc got killed, later the doc is killed and his body floats towards the Island getting warped backwards in time as it goes, turning up before the message.

Yeah, I understand that, as I went through in the post above. What doesn't make sense is having 2 "times" happening at once, with interaction between them. Especially when it involves going backwards in time to the past / present. I can see that it works sending a signal out from the island, and there is a delay which causes it to arrive late. But for a signal to be sent to the island, and end up getting there before it was actually sent makes no sense. You send a message from the boat at time X, it arrives on the island at time X-10 or whatever the distortion is. And you can leave the boat, and arrive on the island, and you'd be on the boat and on the island at the same time then, since you'd be in the past. Okay,maybe it takes longer to get to the island than the difference in time distortion - either way, you'd be on the island, and out in the ocean at once.

Yeah, I understand that, as I went through in the post above. What doesn't make sense is having 2 "times" happening at once, with interaction between them.

Confusing, isn't it? But that's not what happened. Dan sent the message to the freighter, and they received it and replied - all in the same timeframe. No time travel involved.

You send a message from the boat at time X, it arrives on the island at time X-10 or whatever the distortion is.Nope, you send it at time X, it arrives at time X.

And you can leave the boat, and arrive on the island, and you'd be on the boat and on the island at the same time then, since you'd be in the past. Okay,maybe it takes longer to get to the island than the difference in time distortion - either way, you'd be on the island, and out in the ocean at once.Yes! While the doctor's dead body was on the beach, he was alive on the freighter. His body traveled back in time. If he'd still been alive, he could have potentially phoned himself on the boat.

But the universe has a way of course correcting. So, something will prevent that. (The phone won't work, or only send Morse; the doctor will be unavailable; the gun will jam).

So, The Doctor traveled back in time - just like rabbit 15.

But what are these scars and stitches referenced above? I must have missed that?

But that doesn't actually work out in terms of "time" because it suggests that there are two "times" happening at once, which doesn't make any sense.

Makes sense to me.

Imagine the Indy 500. One car laps the field. It is on loop 200, while all the other vehicles are on loop 199. They occupy the same point in the circle, but the iterations are not synchronized, not yet.

Yeah, I understand that, as I went through in the post above. What doesn't make sense is having 2 "times" happening at once, with interaction between them. Especially when it involves going backwards in time to the past / present. I can see that it works sending a signal out from the island, and there is a delay which causes it to arrive late. But for a signal to be sent to the island, and end up getting there before it was actually sent makes no sense. You send a message from the boat at time X, it arrives on the island at time X-10 or whatever the distortion is. And you can leave the boat, and arrive on the island, and you'd be on the boat and on the island at the same time then, since you'd be in the past. Okay,maybe it takes longer to get to the island than the difference in time distortion - either way, you'd be on the island, and out in the ocean at once.

Time is running the same on either side of the barrier/anomaly/field around the Island - the warping only happens as you pass through the field around the island at anything other than the 'safe' bearing.

The signals as used by the special 'sat phone' things that they have there seem to have a way of circumventing the time distortion. Ever wondered why they are using these hi-tech bespoke bits of kit instead of standard radios to communicate with the ship?

In the case of the Doc, his body went back in time as it drifted to the Island hence when Dan gets in touch with the boat using the unaffected satphone signal, the Doc is still alive on the boat having not yet been killed by Keamy because it hasn't happened yet in the current time frame.

Time is running the same on either side of the barrier/anomaly/field around the Island - the warping only happens as you pass through the field around the island at anything other than the 'safe' bearing.

The signals as used by the special 'sat phone' things that they have there seem to have a way of circumventing the time distortion. Ever wondered why they are using these hi-tech bespoke bits of kit instead of standard radios to communicate with the ship?

In the case of the Doc, his body went back in time as it drifted to the Island hence when Dan gets in touch with the boat using the unaffected satphone signal, the Doc is still alive on the boat having not yet been killed by Keamy because it hasn't happened yet in the current time frame.

I have to wonder if sometime in this story line if we see the theme in other stories where 2 different time lines intersect and what will happen with that. Like freckle Kate and no freckle Kate crossing paths. Perhaps this has something to do with the Orchid video.

HALLIWAX: ... the hell?!*
Don't let them near each other! When did you set the shift?

If the 2 15's touch, what would happen?

Obviously, people on the island send a message -> it goes out towards the boat, it gets sent back in time -> they get the message before the doc is dead -> they reply -> it gets sent towards the island -> it goes... forwards in time... -> they end up getting the message straight after they sent their own message.

But that doesn't actually work out in terms of "time" because it suggests that there are two "times" happening at once, which doesn't make any sense.
Why would that imply there are "two times"? It just implies that messages are going through a time offset while travelling through space.

Anyway, since the helicopter travels (usually) along a space corridor that is unaffected by time shift, I think it's the other way around: The message from the island to the boat shifts forward. The message fromt he boat to the island shifts backwards. The floating doctor body, when it crosses the barrier, shifts (even more) backwards.

I think people have a fundamentally different way of understanding what is even happening on the show, especially when it comes to this time thing. What other people are talking about isn't what I'm seeing at all, and vice versa, makes it pretty difficult to communicate with one another

The sat phones seem unaffected by the distortion. So Daniel sent his morse code to the freighter before the doc got killed, later the doc is killed and his body floats towards the Island getting warped backwards in time as it goes, turning up before the message.

Again, the sat phones are not unaffected. Daniel sent his message at night, and Omar received it the next day.

Here is what Damon had to say about the Sat Phones

"According to the rules of our show, a communication between sat phones is not affected by temporal distortion, but if you were to send a radio broadcast and/or a telegraph message, it would be affected by temporal distortion."

What doesn't make sense is having 2 "times" happening at once, with interaction between them. Especially when it involves going backwards in time to the past / present. I can see that it works sending a signal out from the island, and there is a delay which causes it to arrive late. But for a signal to be sent to the island, and end up getting there before it was actually sent makes no sense. You send a message from the boat at time X, it arrives on the island at time X-10 or whatever the distortion is. And you can leave the boat, and arrive on the island, and you'd be on the boat and on the island at the same time then, since you'd be in the past. Okay,maybe it takes longer to get to the island than the difference in time distortion - either way, you'd be on the island, and out in the ocean at once.
Yeah, that's exactly what I think is happening. You can think of someone being able to be on the boat and on the island "at the same time", but again, when dealing with relativistic physics, "at the same time' between two different places, is a meaningless concept.

An spatial analogy for talking to someone "in real time" across a time offset, is this: If someone puts on some goggles and jumps in a swimming pool, and sinks to the bottom, and looks back up at you, and you look at him, and you communicate back and forth in sign language. However, because of the refractive index of the water, he is not in the place where you think you see him. The only thing actually in the direction you are looking is water and the bottom of the pool. And the only think in the direction he is looking is the sky. But you can both see each other and communicate, just as if you were actually looking directly at each other. Only neither one of you is spatially where you seem to the other to be. You both seem to be in the "spatial present", meaning directly in front of your eyes, but one of you is in the "spatial future" (above where you are looking) and the other is in the "spatial past" (below where you are looking).
100%
Here is what Damon had to say about the Sat Phones

"According to the rules of our show, a communication between sat phones is not affected by temporal distortion, but if you were to send a radio broadcast and/or a telegraph message, it would be affected by temporal distortion."

Okay, so maybe in their normal function, the sat phones are unaffected, but Daniel's hacked version was affected.

Pythagoras99, I agree... I took Damon's statement to mean the same thing....

Here is what Damon had to say about the Sat Phones

"According to the rules of our show, a communication between sat phones is not affected by temporal distortion, but if you were to send a radio broadcast and/or a telegraph message, it would be affected by temporal distortion."
Obviously what they meant is that their Sat Phones were designed ESPECIFICALLY for this mission. That is why Sayid couldn't identify them.

As far as the doctor's paradox.... The whole situation is a mind bender. That is the cool factor of it. No matter how you look at it, you are gonna keep finding holes and paradoxes. It happens in every time travel story.
As far as my own interpretation, and I have posted this many many times at the fuselage, the island is capable of creating 'CLOSED TIMELIKE CURVES'. That is the answer, guys.

Fierro,

I could not agree with you more that if I climbed up to the top of my house and started screaming

WORMHOLE WORMHOLE WORMHOLE WORMHOLE!!!!!!

ps.. tried to find a cool avi like yours to symbolize the timespacecurve, but yours is the best description in an image I could find!! But I will keep trying...

Fierro,

I could not agree with you more that if I climbed up to the top of my house and started screaming

WORMHOLE WORMHOLE WORMHOLE WORMHOLE!!!!!!

ps.. tried to find a cool avi like yours to symbolize the timespacecurve, but yours is the best description in an image I could find!! But I will keep trying...

There are some interesting labels I made on that picture, that because of the size, I don't think they show pretty good.

In the throat of the wormhole, I placed the Island with its casimir force keeping it stabilized. Then I placed one mouth on the Pacific and the other one, on the Indian Ocean. By the way, that was when I came up with my 1-IN, 1-OUT Portal Theory.

Fierro, if you get a chance, read the wonderful scientific information AddHawk posted on my thread. I am amazed at the brilliant minds on this board!!!

http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=87265&page=2

Obviously what they meant is that their Sat Phones were designed ESPECIFICALLY for this mission. That is why Sayid couldn't identify them.

As far as the doctor's paradox.... The whole situation is a mind bender. That is the cool factor of it. No matter how you look at it, you are gonna keep finding holes and paradoxes. It happens in every time travel story.
As far as my own interpretation, and I have posted this many many times at the fuselage, the island is capable of creating 'CLOSED TIMELIKE CURVES'. That is the answer, guys.


There is absolutely no paradox regarding the doctor.

Nothing in the message that Dan sends causes the Doc to get killed, Keamy as far as we can see just decides to kill the nearest crewmember when forcing Frank to fly him back to the Island. Nothing to do with the message that came in on the 'satphone' thing.

It would only be a paradox if the message played a part in the Doc's death.

Whaddya call a dead doctor floating out in the ocean...? Bob...man that guy's body didn't just jetski straight to the island, he had to bob and drift and float and it probably took awhile for him to wash up because the boat is still out on the water at some distance. Meanwhile, his body is on this bearing, then the tide or current changes and he's over here now which creates the total unprdictability of the scene in the first place. I mean doesn't this somewhat explain this occurence...

DANIEL: Your perception of how long your friends have been gone, it's not necessarily how long they've actually been gone.
JACK: What does that mean?
CHARLOTTE: This is a mistake.
DANIEL: It'll be fine, it'll be fine. As long as Frank flew on the bearings I gave him. If he stayed on it, it'll be fine.
JACK: And what if he didn't?
DANIEL: Then there might be side-effects.

Well, that could be some hell of a side effect with that doctor...(<>..<>)

dead body is moving faster than chopper
chopper is moving faster than telegraph signal
sat signal is not affected by the island environment effect

Ben and others used submarine to move out the island
They also can go out and come back by small boat

I cannot draw a full picture!

I have so many question marks in my mind needs to be answered

Wonder what bearing the doctors body took to the island as that seems to have caused the time difference between him still being alive on the boat but washed up dead on the shore...(<>..<>)

it's all going to seem a little off. seeing as how we are watching the episodes with a week in between. we notice when omar is walking off with the sat phone the morse code. just because it hadn't happened yet on the frieghter doesn't mean that faraday should be on the freighter still. both the island and the frieghter have their own timelines. you can't really put them up against eachother until the end of the season, where you can really compare the two.

There is absolutely no paradox regarding the doctor.

Nothing in the message that Dan sends causes the Doc to get killed, Keamy as far as we can see just decides to kill the nearest crewmember when forcing Frank to fly him back to the Island. Nothing to do with the message that came in on the 'satphone' thing.

It would only be a paradox if the message played a part in the Doc's death.
Perhaps not the best choice of words. But I wasn't talking about a temporal paradox, because there was no time travel involved in that story. I was talking about it in a more generic popular way, referenicng the impossibility in the doctor's situation of being alive and dead at the same time. His situation is a perfect example of a breakdown in the cause and effect laws, caused by a CTC.

Why would that imply there are "two times"? It just implies that messages are going through a time offset while travelling through space.

Anyway, since the helicopter travels (usually) along a space corridor that is unaffected by time shift, I think it's the other way around: The message from the island to the boat shifts forward. The message fromt he boat to the island shifts backwards. The floating doctor body, when it crosses the barrier, shifts (even more) backwards.

I follow all this and it makes sense.... until I remember the payload. No matter what theory I use in terms of time differences or time distortions I cannot match the helicopters, doc and payload. :frown: