I just gotta say that kind angered me a bit.

I mean there's sawyer, coming bk with the baby safe and sound, whcih is more than coulda happened. Tells them that the freighters tried to kill them all, and the second Jack hears that he tries to call him a coward for duck and covering? (if only he knew how many bullets he had to dodge!)

I hope we see some more interaction with Jack and Sawyer in the two parter. Hope Jack finds out what sawyer did to get arron back and I hope that they go and rescue hurley together.

That didn't surprise me. The ability to admit that he could be wrong about something is entirely missing from Jack's character's make up. My husband's entire family are all lacking in this ability as well. After more than a decade of marriage, I've given up on trying to change that aspect of my husband. Now I just smile quietly to myself when he screws up, and he knows that I know, and that's enough for me.

But back to Jack, even though he obviously is unable to admit to his own mistakes, even if he could do it, we all know that there is no way under the sun that he would own up to his errors to Sawyer--epsecially not right there in front of Kate. If we learned anything about Jack in SNBH, he still has some major insecurites on that front. But who could blame him? No matter how much he cIaims to love Kate, I seriously doubt that he will ever get that image of her lying naked in Sawyer's arms (from I Do) out of his head.

Well, I don't think a "My bad, guys" would cover it so best to just press on I'd say...

Well, I don't think a "My bad, guys" would cover it so best to just press on I'd say...

True. But getting in Sawyer's face and getting snarky wasn't the best call either.

I have to say, Jack didn't come off too well in this episode, to the exchange with Sun at the beginning and his response, this should be easy. I can understand Jack going after the helicopter before he met up with Sawyer he didn't know about the massacre at Otherville. But he came off as a real insensitive SOB when he met up with Sawyer, saying, "running didn't work out so well for you" seemed incredibly cold insensitive given that people died at Otherville. I'm glad Sawyer called him on his obsession with getting off the island, and it is an obsession going after a helicopter when it is filled with men who are better armed is an obsession. It seems a waste of time for him to go after the helicopter when there are more pressing matters like the men coming to kill them. Plus doesn't the Zodiac raft negate the need for the helicopter, it can only hold six people at a time but its better than nothing. Jack isn't one to own up to his mistakes, and he has been wrong about the freighties from the beginning of the season, I think that explains Sun's anger with him on the plane(I think he's the other person she blames for Jin's death). And it didn't make since to press on, because Jack isn't in the best of shape and the commandos are better armed. No, I don't have a better plan but rushing headlong into it while the rest of your people on the beach need to be protected makes no sense either. Sawyer seemed to think so to, but he went along.

Yes, it points to a flaw of Jack's. I was glad that the show addressed the point instead of just glossing over it. To play devil's advocate, Jack wasn't totally wrong about the freighties. Daniel and the others do not seem to have bad intentions. In fact Abaddon (spelling?), who pushed Locke to the island, sent that group. With meeting that group, it isn't hard to see why at first Jack thought they didn't have bad intentions.

As far as obsessing about getting off the island, it goes back to Jack's faults. He feels responsible for the people on the island. He wants to get them off and do anything he can to do that. I think that is why he had a bit of blind faith in the freighties.

This is exactly what I would expect from the character, Jack. Anything else would seem out of character at this point. He may have a hard time admitting it, but he knows it, and he is assuming responsibility for it, and he is going to try to rectify his mistakes, against all odds. He is, after all, the hero. A flawed hero, but the hero.

Well, personally I would have chosen Sayid, you know the ex-military man with presumably specialized training to be my on-island leader instead of the doc from the big city. But that's just me. ;)

This is exactly what I would expect from the character, Jack. Anything else would seem out of character at this point. He may have a hard time admitting it, but he knows it, and he is assuming responsibility for it, and he is going to try to rectify his mistakes, against all odds. He is, after all, the hero. A flawed hero, but the hero.
That what I like about the show, I can't think of another show in which the lead is continually wrong and still continued a hero. I don't know if "hero" is the correct term for Jack, certainly many of his actions are heroic, but I don't know if he could be called a hero, in the same way Ben could be called totally a villain.

This is exactly what I would expect from the character, Jack. Anything else would seem out of character at this point. He may have a hard time admitting it, but he knows it, and he is assuming responsibility for it, and he is going to try to rectify his mistakes, against all odds. He is, after all, the hero. A flawed hero, but the hero.

I would have to agree. Yes, Jack has difficulties admitting his mistakes, but twice in tonights epi, did he take responsibility for making the decisions he made and was attempting to rectify those mistakes. He didn't ask anyone else to go with him except Kate, so again, he was putting himself at risk by disregarding Juliet's plea about bleeding to death. He didn't even ask Sawyer to go with him after Sawyer handed Aaron over to Kate. He told them to head back to the beach.

I would have to agree. Yes, Jack has difficulties admitting his mistakes, but twice in tonights epi, did he take responsibility for making the decisions he made and was attempting to rectify those mistakes. He didn't ask anyone else to go with him except Kate, so again, he was putting himself at risk by disregarding Juliet's plea about bleeding to death. He didn't even ask Sawyer to go with him after Sawyer handed Aaron over to Kate. He told them to head back to the beach.
I will say that he took responsibility but sending Sayid and Desmond to the freighter was Sayid's idea, I know Jack feels responsibility. But I think his attempt to rectify those mistakes, as Sawyer pointed out what is with Jack and getting off the island,it's an obsession to a fault. Like I said, it really doesn't make sense to go after a helicopter, when keeping the people on the beach safe from the commandos trying to kill them and they have the zodiac raft, which holds six people at a time but they can only get 10 people away tops, so the zodiac raft is as good as the helicopter, it would take several trips but they could still get everyone off. And I can't understand treking through the jungle after major surgery in a makeshift operating room.

This is classic Jack, he is a toolbox. I would still like for there to be a scene before the end of the season when he meets back up with Locke and Locke has a chance to say, "Hey, how about that-- I was 100% right about everything I said, and you were 100% wrong and brought death upon us all. Toolbox."

As far as I'm concerned any killings the freighter mercs carry out-- Danielle, Karl, Alex, and the randos-- all that blood is on Jack's hands.

But he wasn't entirely wrong. The captain wasn't a bad guy. Lapidus isn't a bad guy. Some people on the freighter want to help. I don't necessarily think everything would have been hunky dory if Jack hadn't made that call.

But regardless of whether there are some decent folks on the freighter, it doesn't change the fact that the freighter arrived with people on board who had the intention of killing every single person on the Island, just like Ben said, and Locke intuited after his encounter with Walt.

And Jack called the freighter because he believed Naomi when she told them all that they would be rescued. Dan revealed three episodes ago that it was never their intention to take them off the Island. So yeah, Jack was completely wrong.

Ah, I was waiting for another Jack thread.

I just gotta say that kind angered me a bit.

I mean there's sawyer, coming bk with the baby safe and sound, whcih is more than coulda happened. Tells them that the freighters tried to kill them all, and the second Jack hears that he tries to call him a coward for duck and covering? (if only he knew how many bullets he had to dodge!)

Yeah because Sawyer has never put himself above the welfare of the other Losties before. Sawyer DOES have a reputation for putting himself first. Jack has no idea what happened with Sawyer except for the fact that he left everyone to go with Locke's camp because he wanted to "survive."

I hope we see some more interaction with Jack and Sawyer in the two parter. Hope Jack finds out what sawyer did to get arron back and I hope that they go and rescue hurley together.I would love for these two guys to work together. Forget the shipper crap.

This is exactly what I would expect from the character, Jack. Anything else would seem out of character at this point. He may have a hard time admitting it, but he knows it, and he is assuming responsibility for it, and he is going to try to rectify his mistakes, against all odds. He is, after all, the hero. A flawed hero, but the hero.

Agreed. Jack does assume responsibility when he feels he made a mistake. He doesn't sit around and twiddle his thumbs hoping that things get better. He takes action, and he will put his life in danger to do it.

Jack is certainly a flawed hero, but he is a hero. A man who consistently puts his life in danger to protect other people makes him a hero. The fact that he makes mistakes along the way makes him human.

I would have to agree. Yes, Jack has difficulties admitting his mistakes, but twice in tonights epi, did he take responsibility for making the decisions he made and was attempting to rectify those mistakes. He didn't ask anyone else to go with him except Kate, so again, he was putting himself at risk by disregarding Juliet's plea about bleeding to death. He didn't even ask Sawyer to go with him after Sawyer handed Aaron over to Kate. He told them to head back to the beach.

Jack will never get credit for those moments.

This is classic Jack, he is a toolbox. I would still like for there to be a scene before the end of the season when he meets back up with Locke and Locke has a chance to say, "Hey, how about that-- I was 100% right about everything I said, and you were 100% wrong and brought death upon us all. Toolbox."

Oh I would LOVE that scene. That way Jack can tell Locke: "Did you notice, John, that Naomi was on the island long before I made the call to the freighter? How did she get to this island, John, if the island couldn't be found? I guess someone signaled the boat. Why did you push that button, number 77, into the computer, John?"

Also, didn't John tell the Losties to go with him if they wanted to live. How did that work out for them?

As far as I'm concerned any killings the freighter mercs carry out-- Danielle, Karl, Alex, and the randos-- all that blood is on Jack's hands.Locke separated the camps. I don't blame Locke, actually, I blame Ben. He knew exactly who was coming. He already had Michael on the freighter so he KNEW the freighter was coming. Jack's call meant nothing. He knew that Widmore was involved, and he knew how dangerous they were, but did he tell Jack or Sayid or anyone? No. All he did was say "Don't make the call." Do you really think anyone trusts a word out of Ben's mouth?

If anyone is to blame for the mess that has resulted, it is Ben Linus. Period. Full Stop.

But regardless of whether there are some decent folks on the freighter, it doesn't change the fact that the freighter arrived with people on board who had the intention of killing every single person on the Island, just like Ben said, and Locke intuited after his encounter with Walt.

Which Locke and Ben shared with no one. Again, John and Ben have not shared a single iota of their knowledge of the island with anyone except with each other, and that's only when one of them has the other up against the wall. It's amusing to me that their actions are not condemned and yet they (mostly Ben) are the reasons for all the deaths on the island. With the exception of Boone and Naomi, all the deaths on the island (Shannon, Libby, Ana Lucia, Charlie) were a result of Ben's manipulations and driving fear into the Losties.

And Jack called the freighter because he believed Naomi when she told them all that they would be rescued. Isn't Naomi the same woman that Sayid, Charlie, Desmond, Kate, and Hurley believed the minute she landed on the island? Once again, it can't be said enough that Naomi was ALREADY on the island before they trekked up to the tower.

So, Jack is being faulted for trusting Naomi even though Sayid and Company believed every word she said first? Wasn't Sayid desperate to get the SAT phone working so that they could call the freighter? Didn't Sayid get upset with Jack in TTLG because Jack was more concerned about ambushing the Others rather than trying to make contact with the freighter? Remember that?

I love how this stuff gets spun, and how the facts are either twisted or conveniently left out. I need popcorn.

But regardless of whether there are some decent folks on the freighter, it doesn't change the fact that the freighter arrived with people on board who had the intention of killing every single person on the Island, just like Ben said, and Locke intuited after his encounter with Walt.

And Jack called the freighter because he believed Naomi when she told them all that they would be rescued. Dan revealed three episodes ago that it was never their intention to take them off the Island. So yeah, Jack was completely wrong.

Again, you are taking for granted what we, the audience knows. He had no knowledge of that at that time. He wasn't privy to Desmond's flashes and what Charlie's fate was going to be. Even Sayid told Jack to keep going no matter what. There's blame to go around, but I guess with Jack, it's much easier to blame him, since he is the leader. This just makes Jack's journey to redemption all the more compelling for me, because I don't think he will get there until the final season and the final scene. He will suffer the most and I like the way TPTB have constructed it that way.

The truth is, however, is that those who went with Locke died, and those who went with Jack are still okay. Jack wasn't entirely wrong.

And it didn't make since to press on, because Jack isn't in the best of shape and the commandos are better armed. No, I don't have a better plan but rushing headlong into it while the rest of your people on the beach need to be protected makes no sense either. Sawyer seemed to think so to, but he went along.

Well, Jack's one really admirable trait is that when someone is in trouble, he will -- perhaps compulsively -- put aside all thought of himself to rescue them. Even if he's overcome with desperation and seconds away from a dramatic suicide!!! So when he heard that Hurley was with Ben, there was only one thing he was capable of doing, and that's trying to save him.

The truth is, however, is that those who went with Locke died, and those who went with Jack are still okay. Jack wasn't entirely wrong.

No offence, but I think that fact is down to dumb luck rather than to anything that can be credited to Jack. Whichever team had had Ben with them was bound to get decimated because he was Keamy's target, but neither Jack nor Locke knew anything about all that.

For the record, I say that as someone who does not think Jack did anything wrong in contacting the freighter. That's what everybody wanted to do, except for Ben and Locke. And nobody wanted to listen to either of those two at the time.

"Hey, how about that-- I was 100% right about everything I said, and you were 100% wrong


I don't think this will ever be the case as neither man was right or wrong, but were doing what they believed to be the right thing and there will no doubt be a lot of guilt to be felt by both John and Jack over the decisions they made, but the blood is ultimately on Ben and Widmore's hands, those two men have certainly murdered quite a few innocent people while playing their "game".

Jack wants to get his people off of screwball island, and Locke wants to stop them. The others want to stop them. I think if Jack had been at "New Otherton" his opinions about Locke and Ben would not have changed. Locke doesn't care if everyone dies as a giant sacrifice to the island, or if everyone lives on the beach until they die of starvation.

Jack is concerned with the safety and well being of the people who look to him as a leader.

Jack is after RESCUE, and he knew that even if those people were dangerous they were the single chance for people to leave the island. Jack's been prepared to fight for rescue from day one. He knew a fight was coming, be it with the others, or the frieghter people, whoever. It doesn't matter.

And when you are desperate for rescue and people show up in a chopper saying they are there to rescue you, and this short bug eyed guy who's been lying to you says some thing else, who would you believe?

Like I said though, Jack didn't duck out of admitting he was wrong, he simple focused on getting the job done as best he could bleeding out of a stomach wound and all.

This is a recurring theme with Jack, he screws up and he is unable to admit it and in the end he makes himself appear as the hero. This goes back to the pilot when he recounts his fear story to Kate. This is being reenacted over and over again. The objective is to finally get him learn to live with the idea that it is ok to fail, everybody does one time or another.

Well, personally I would have chosen Sayid, you know the ex-military man with presumably specialized training to be my on-island leader instead of the doc from the big city. But that's just me. ;)



lol no offence meaning but we saw wat happned last time iraqi military went after US marines... the fight didnt last long... no matter who you send. the only way to over power them is to out think them... there ex marine spec ops i believe... and even if there not there still marines and id take USMC over any one any where any day

This season especially Sawyer seems to have changed for the better and Jack for the worse, I'm glad that Sawyer went with Jack pursue the helicopter even though he thought it was a mistake, somebody has to be thinking rationally.

Sawyer only went to the helicopter because of Jack, otherwise he would have just gone back with Kate. Sawyer knows Jack is their leader, however irrational he may act, and realizes Jack's importance to those that want rescue.

Sawyer only went to the helicopter because of Jack, otherwise he would have just gone back with Kate. Sawyer knows Jack is their leader, however irrational he may act, and realizes Jack's importance to those that want rescue.
I didn't readi it like that all, I saw it as Sawyer seeing Jack was in bad shape physically and not thinking clearly(something he hasn't been doing to much of lately) and feeling a need to protect him, from the commandos and himself. And I think that Jack's importance to rescue is in his own mind.

Twice in this episode, maybe more, Jack said things that could be taken as cold and unfeeling, like it totally went over his head what was going on with the other person/persons. In the scene with Sawyer, he mad that statement to an obviously torn-up, exhausted, frantic man who had been through something really bad. Did Jack see that at all? No, it seems like he could only pick up on what he took to be criticism of himself. And in the scene on the plane he rambles on about pretending to be in shock when everyone else is totally and obviously devastated and in shock, When Sun calls his attention to this, he replies, "Well, then, it should be easy." I could not believe he said either of those two things. Talk about "bad bedside manner."

Granted, Jack is trying really hard to get everyone rescued and is being obsessively driven to this end to the point of harming his own self. And I don't think Jack's calling the freighter in TTLG was his fault or whatever. He did what everyone wanted at that point. But I think we are being shown the flaws in Jack's character quite clearly for a reason and in the end, Jack will finally do some growing and redeem himself--probably by dying in a dramtic and heroic way as befitting his larger-than-life character.

Jack wants to get his people off of screwball island, and Locke wants to stop them. The others want to stop them. I think if Jack had been at "New Otherton" his opinions about Locke and Ben would not have changed. Locke doesn't care if everyone dies as a giant sacrifice to the island, or if everyone lives on the beach until they die of starvation.

Jack is concerned with the safety and well being of the people who look to him as a leader.

Jack is after RESCUE, and he knew that even if those people were dangerous they were the single chance for people to leave the island. Jack's been prepared to fight for rescue from day one. He knew a fight was coming, be it with the others, or the frieghter people, whoever. It doesn't matter.

And when you are desperate for rescue and people show up in a chopper saying they are there to rescue you, and this short bug eyed guy who's been lying to you says some thing else, who would you believe?

Like I said though, Jack didn't duck out of admitting he was wrong, he simple focused on getting the job done as best he could bleeding out of a stomach wound and all. Excellent post.
As to the title of the thread, he's admitted to the beach group a couple times that he knows the freighties are lying and they're not to be trusted, BUT they are still the best chance of rescue they have. I think the logic is that if they don't try to get what they can from this freighter because they're not altruistic rescuers, and wait for just the perfect rescue opportunity, it might never come along.

Jack's instincts were right, it turns out, to follow the helicopter because Frank was waiting and he told them that's exactly why he tossed out the sat phone. (Love Frank.)

Of course we shouldn't give anyone full credit for being right for the wrong reasons. Jack thought Sayid and Des were on the helicopter, at least at first, and that was a good enough reason to follow it. On the other hand we shouldn't condemn the actions characters take that turn out to be wrong because we know more information than the characters do - making the original call in TTLG, for example, or setting out on the raft in Exodus.

Twice in this episode, maybe more, Jack said things that could be taken as cold and unfeeling, like it totally went over his head what was going on with the other person/persons. In the scene with Sawyer, he mad that statement to an obviously torn-up, exhausted, frantic man who had been through something really bad. Did Jack see that at all? No, it seems like he could only pick up on what he took to be criticism of himself. And in the scene on the plane he rambles on about pretending to be in shock when everyone else is totally and obviously devastated and in shock, When Sun calls his attention to this, he replies, "Well, then, it should be easy." I could not believe he said either of those two things. Talk about "bad bedside manner."

I so wish that TPTB had chosen to explore and develop the relationship/potential friendship b/w Jack and Sawyer rather than having them square off over some ridiculously indecisive female. That whole triangle is just nonsense. I think developing a strong bond with another male would have been very beneficial to both these characters who have histories of troubled male interactions. Instead we get snarky comments at each other. What a waste.

I agree though that Jack's "it should be easy" comment to Sun, a woman who has just lost her husband (either through death or separation), was very insensitive to say the least.

I agree too that it is unfair to rag on a character for making decisions when he/she is not privy to all the information that might cause him/her to choose differently.

Twice in this episode, maybe more, Jack said things that could be taken as cold and unfeeling, like it totally went over his head what was going on with the other person/persons. In the scene with Sawyer, he mad that statement to an obviously torn-up, exhausted, frantic man who had been through something really bad. Did Jack see that at all?

Unlike Jack? Jack hasn't been exhausted, torn up and frantic either? You mean while Jack is standing there bleeding from torn stitches after being operated on hours earlier but is determined to see if Sayid and Desmond need rescue? Sawyer's not the only person on craphole island to go through hell. I don't think Jack was being hard on Sawyer at all, and I don't think Sawyer even took it that way. These are guys and they aren't touchy feely. I loved the snark between Jack and Sawyer; it was like old times.

It's amusing to me that Jack always has to coddle everyone's feelings, but when it comes to him and anything he's been through, it gets swept under the rug. I think both Jack and Sawyer respect each other.

No, it seems like he could only pick up on what he took to be criticism of himself.

And Sawyer didn't bristle when Jack shot a line right back at him? :rolleyes:

And in the scene on the plane he rambles on about pretending to be in shock when everyone else is totally and obviously devastated and in shock, When Sun calls his attention to this, he replies, "Well, then, it should be easy." I could not believe he said either of those two things. Talk about "bad bedside manner."

I think Sun has become more and more of a byotch to everyone lately. All she does is whine and complain about everyone else. It's not like Jack is sitting on the plane twisting everyone's arm to do anything. Clearly Jack said that "they" had agreed to the whatever lie they were about to tell. If Sun had an issue with it, then she should have spoken up earlier. It was amusing that she's blaming her father for Jin's death when she's the one who sent Jin into the crime world while sleeping with another man.

I have no sympathy for her.

Jack is not making perfect decisions by any means, and I don't consider him the best leader that ever lived either. He's simply a man who is trying to do his best with the knowledge and information he has at that moment. He's going to screw up and he's going to make bad choices. Why don't I have a problem with that? Because at least Jack goes headfirst into the chaos when things turn bad so that IF it blows up in his face, he's the first one taking the hit. He does it because he's heroic, but I also know he does it because he can't handle failure. He'd rather die trying than live and fail, and that's what is driving him into that downward spiral in the future, imo.


As to the title of the thread, he's admitted to the beach group a couple times that he knows the freighties are lying and they're not to be trusted, BUT they are still the best chance of rescue they have. I think the logic is that if they don't try to get what they can from this freighter because they're not altruistic rescuers, and wait for just the perfect rescue opportunity, it might never come along.

Jack's instincts were right, it turns out, to follow the helicopter because Frank was waiting and he told them that's exactly why he tossed out the sat phone. (Love Frank.)

Of course we shouldn't give anyone full credit for being right for the wrong reasons. Jack thought Sayid and Des were on the helicopter, at least at first, and that was a good enough reason to follow it. On the other hand we shouldn't condemn the actions characters take that turn out to be wrong because we know more information than the characters do - making the original call in TTLG, for example, or setting out on the raft in Exodus.

Nice post.

I so wish that TPTB had chosen to explore and develop the relationship/potential friendship b/w Jack and Sawyer rather than having them square off over some ridiculously indecisive female. That whole triangle is just nonsense.

From your lips to God's ears. It was fun to talk about Jack and Sawyer before these shipper wars exploded. Now it seems like everyone has split into character camps to declare war. I still like Sawyer, and Sawyer's certainly not my favorite character, but I appreciate exactly what he brings to the drama. I like when he's heroic, but I still like when he's got his edge and his darkness. I don't want him all sweet and light. I feel the same way about Jack. I like his heroism, but I love his flaws too, and I think Matthew Fox is fantastic with this role just as Josh Holloway owns Sawyer brilliantly.

It was wonderful seeing these two characters interact WITHOUT KATE. They clearly love ribbing each other, but when push came to shove, they worked together. Sawyer went with Jack when he saw he was injured, which was great. Sawyer also knew that Jack would go with him when he found out Hurley was with Ben, and Jack did. Both guys with one mission - and it wasn't Kate!

I think developing a strong bond with another male would have been very beneficial to both these characters who have histories of troubled male interactions. Instead we get snarky comments at each other. What a waste.

I loved the snark. It's so Jack and Sawyer. It's the shipper stuff that doomed any bonding between these guys since season one.

I agree though that Jack's "it should be easy" comment to Sun, a woman who has just lost her husband (either through death or separation), was very insensitive to say the least.

Sun is no shrinking violet. She IS accustomed to lying, and she's very good at it. The fact that she loves to challenge people but never takes action herself was a very annoying quality about her. She has finally taken action against her father, but he's not entirely to blame for what happened to Jin. She needs to take a good long look in a mirror.

I agree too that it is unfair to rag on a character for making decisions when he/she is not privy to all the information that might cause him/her to choose differently.

Very true.

Oh I would LOVE that scene. That way Jack can tell Locke: "Did you notice, John, that Naomi was on the island long before I made the call to the freighter? How did she get to this island, John, if the island couldn't be found? I guess someone signaled the boat. Why did you push that button, number 77, into the computer, John?" No one signaled the boat to get Naomi onto the Island. The Island's natural defenses (the barrier) had kept Naomi out, destroying the first helicopter in the process. If the survivors (led by Jack and his obsession with getting rescued, which was pointed out by Sawyer yet again this episode) hadn't been so gullible and quick to believe anyone with an offer of rescue, they wouldn't have then bought into her story.

Also, didn't John tell the Losties to go with him if they wanted to live. How did that work out for them?To have a chance for survival, the best thing to do would have been to retreat to the barracks. Imagine if there had been no second team and everyone followed Jack back to the beach camp like sheep. They would have been completely oblivious to the merc's extraction mission until they showed up at the beach camp and killed everyone with no warning.

Again, you are taking for granted what we, the audience knows. He had no knowledge of that at that time. He wasn't privy to Desmond's flashes and what Charlie's fate was going to be. Even Sayid told Jack to keep going no matter what. There's blame to go around, but I guess with Jack, it's much easier to blame him, since he is the leader. This just makes Jack's journey to redemption all the more compelling for me, because I don't think he will get there until the final season and the final scene. He will suffer the most and I like the way TPTB have constructed it that way.It's true that Jack didn't know about "Not Penny's Boat" yet. However, I was screaming at the TV all through the latter part of the last season because after all the efforts to deceive the survivors, I couldn't believe they were all believing Naomi so readily! Especially with the whole story about them all supposedly being dead!

You're right that we can't call Jack a complete idiot for making the choices he did, and that's not what bothered me about his behavior. It was the stubbornness, the abject refusal to even entertain another point of view (Locke's). Yes, Locke and Ben were being vague, but couldn't Jack had stopped to take five minutes to talk to Locke and find out WHY he knifed Naomi and WHY he believed that calling the freighter would bring doom? Not to mention his murder attempt on Locke in 4x01.

All these are ancillary, anyway, to the fact that the freighter did NOT bring rescue and that Jack failed in his promise to get everyone off the Island.

You're right that we can't call Jack a complete idiot for making the choices he did, and that's not what bothered me about his behavior. It was the stubbornness, the abject refusal to even entertain another point of view (Locke's). Yes, Locke and Ben were being vague, but couldn't Jack had stopped to take five minutes to talk to Locke and find out WHY he knifed Naomi and WHY he believed that calling the freighter would bring doom? Not to mention his murder attempt on Locke in 4x01.

All these are ancillary, anyway, to the fact that the freighter did NOT bring rescue and that Jack failed in his promise to get everyone off the Island.
I agree, the thing many people on the show and on the board forget is that yes, Locke has made many mistakes, and his ego is just as inflated as Jack's, but Jack couldn't even consider the possibility that the freighties weren't there to rescue them. Jack coldly cut Sun's very legitimate concerns about the freighties off by saying, "Locke doesn't know what he's doing," which seems a bad way of trying to assuage a woman, who is 1. pregnant on an island where pregnant women die, and 2. has been terrorized by Others for several months. The scene on the airplane where Sun said, "we are in shock Jack," was keeping in her character development this season over the course of the season she has been increasingly doubtful of Jack's decisions and Jack did come off as a bit of an insensitive *** in the plane, it was obvious everyone was in shock. I could understand why Jack wouldn't believe Ben when he said the freighties were there to kill them all, Ben had tortured, lied to, and manipulated them for close to three months. But after hearing the words straight from one of the freighties that they were never there to rescue them, a little caution might be necessary. I could even understand going after the helicopter when the phone was thrown off, he didn't know about the bloodbath at Otherville yet. But I cannot fathom continuing to press on after finding out about the slaughter at Otherville, saying that helicopter is our only way off this island doesn't seem to be a good enough reason, they have the zodiac raft. I think all of this is one of the contributing factors to Jack's breakdown in the future, worse than not rescuing your people is realizing the decisions you made contributed to their not being rescued.

Yeah because Sawyer has never put himself above the welfare of the other Losties before. Sawyer DOES have a reputation for putting himself first. Jack has no idea what happened with Sawyer except for the fact that he left everyone to go with Locke's camp because he wanted to "survive."

Sawyer has put himself in danger's way for several of the Losties, notably Walt and Michael in Seasons 1 and 2, Kate, Jin, Bernard and Sayid in Season 3 and Claire and now Hurley this season. He has an heroic soul.

The funny thing here is regardless if Jack assessed the freighties correctly, his approach would have worked regardless.

You need to work with the information you have. Locke often works with cryptic partial information laced with mystical content, thus nobody believe him and he's not very good at communicating even in the best of cases.

That's what Jack meant in his very tired snarky way. Hiding can't work because danger will find you. Also, Locke's goals and actions are totally opposed to his, so riight away, there is a conflict of interest between what he's saying and Jack's actions.

And, THEY DO NEED TO GET OFF THE ISLAND (Daniel reiterates this once again).

Its probable the Orchid would have entered into play regardless or Jack or Locke's actions and thus, getting off the island, using the freighter is the only viable option.

I had to pay $4.00 a gallon for gas today. :mad: Damn Jack!! (as long as we're blaming him for everything.......)

Maxum, your posts are dead on and very much appreciated. :)

Sawyer has put himself in danger's way for several of the Losties, notably Walt and Michael in Seasons 1 and 2, Kate, Jin, Bernard and Sayid in Season 3 and Claire and now Hurley this season. He has an heroic soul.

And so has Jack. Character wise they BOTH have shades of grey. I'd argue that this is why we love them as characters, for their flaws as well as their positive traits.

I love the Sawyer/Jack banter. It reminds me of Superman/Batman. Both opposite ends of the spectrum in their "heroic" status but they both have an unspoken respect for each other.

Which one is Superman and which one is Batman? I don't know anything about those characters... LOL.

I had a weird dream last night where it was the second-to-last episode of the entire series and Jack and Sawyer merged into one character because of some time travel thing... which I know makes no sense, but anyway. And then a bunch of people showed up on the island out of nowhere dressed in camoflauge like the mercenaries, but more normal people... and tried to rip Jawyer apart

I would say Batman would be Sawyer. Orphaned at an early age, revenge in his heart and a cynical outlook on life.

Jack is the more idealistic out of the two I think, so that would make him Superman lol.

I had a weird dream last night where it was the second-to-last episode of the entire series and Jack and Sawyer merged into one character because of some time travel thing... which I know makes no sense, but anyway. And then a bunch of people showed up on the island out of nowhere dressed in camoflauge like the mercenaries, but more normal people... and tried to rip Jawyer apart

I believe Sawyer and Jack will work as one at the end of the series. :biggrin:

From your lips to God's ears. It was fun to talk about Jack and Sawyer before these shipper wars exploded. Now it seems like everyone has split into character camps to declare war. I still like Sawyer, and Sawyer's certainly not my favorite character, but I appreciate exactly what he brings to the drama. I like when he's heroic, but I still like when he's got his edge and his darkness. I don't want him all sweet and light. I feel the same way about Jack. I like his heroism, but I love his flaws too, and I think Matthew Fox is fantastic with this role just as Josh Holloway owns Sawyer brilliantly.

It was wonderful seeing these two characters interact WITHOUT KATE. They clearly love ribbing each other, but when push came to shove, they worked together. Sawyer went with Jack when he saw he was injured, which was great. Sawyer also knew that Jack would go with him when he found out Hurley was with Ben, and Jack did. Both guys with one mission - and it wasn't Kate!

It's too bad more people don't share our views on this. These debates always seem to turn into "I hate Jack/Sawyer because he's a threat to my ship" arguments. Sad. Maybe someone should have shoved Kate off of that rescue plane. ;)

It's the shipper stuff that doomed any bonding between these guys since season one.

Again, what a waste!

I think all of this is one of the contributing factors to Jack's breakdown in the future, worse than not rescuing your people is realizing the decisions you made contributed to their not being rescued.

This could be very true. And I actually think now that this is what Christian really meant when he told Jack that he didn't have what it takes to be a hero. At the time we all took it at face value and thought it was a terrible thing for a father to say to his son. In hindsight and given what we now know about Jack's personality, I think what Christian actually meant was that Jack can not be a "hero" in the comic book sense b/c Jack is human, and humans fail. Jack doesn't "have what it takes" to handle failure.

No one signaled the boat to get Naomi onto the Island. The Island's natural defenses (the barrier) had kept Naomi out, destroying the first helicopter in the process.

What show are you watching? I really need for you to tell me the scene and the dialogue where we learned that the island's natural defenses a/k/a the barrier kept Naomi out. I also need to know when it was confirmed that a helicopter was destroyed because that's news to me too.

From what we know, there is only one helicopter on the freighter and one pilot and that would be Frank Lapidus. I'm pretty sure the helicopter didn't go down, and then the freighter went all the way back to a main island to get another helicopter piloted by Frank. If I recall correctly, Naomi was told by Abaddon to bring the Freaky Four to the island, including Frank Lapidus.

This is Imaginary Lost.

If the survivors (led by Jack and his obsession with getting rescued, which was pointed out by Sawyer yet again this episode) hadn't been so gullible and quick to believe anyone with an offer of rescue, they wouldn't have then bought into her story. Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Naomi sell the "rescue" story to Sayid, Kate, Charlie Desmond, Sawyer, and Hurley long before Jack ever heard about it? Didn't Sayid work frantically to repair the SAT phone in order to call the Freighter for help because Naomi told him the Freighter was offshore? Didn't the Losties ask Jack to lead them to the tower in order to effect rescue?

Yeah, how stupid of Jack to want to do the will of the rest of the survivors, the idiot.

To have a chance for survival, the best thing to do would have been to retreat to the barracks. Imagine if there had been no second team and everyone followed Jack back to the beach camp like sheep. They would have been completely oblivious to the merc's extraction mission until they showed up at the beach camp and killed everyone with no warning. Really? I think the gas situation at the last Dharma station, coupled with the guns, the message from Dan, and other various scenarios alerted Jack and company to the fact that they were dealing with dangerous people.

I would still take a chance at survival than sitting on my butt in Othersville waiting for . . . what exactly were they waiting for again? I like Jack and Sayid's thinking on the entire situation. Rather than sit around and do nothing, they opted to either BE rescue or FORCE rescue, which is what they are doing now. In Locke's camp, everyone is either dead, missing, or being held at gunpoint. I'd still stay with Team Jack. Even Hurley seemed to think so.

It's true that Jack didn't know about "Not Penny's Boat" yet. However, I was screaming at the TV all through the latter part of the last season because after all the efforts to deceive the survivors, I couldn't believe they were all believing Naomi so readily! Especially with the whole story about them all supposedly being dead! That was Sayid, Kate, Desmond, Charlie, and the rest of the gang who believed Naomi immediately. THAT was a dumb moment, I agree. I was really hoping that Sayid would "persuade" Naomi to tell the truth or at least provide more information, instead they all bought her story hook, line, and sinker.

You're right that we can't call Jack a complete idiot for making the choices he did, and that's not what bothered me about his behavior. It was the stubbornness, the abject refusal to even entertain another point of view (Locke's). Actually that's not true. Jack and Locke have had previous conversations about Locke's feelings about the island. Just because it happened in an earlier season OUR time, doesn't mean that it didn't happen mere weeks in Lost time. Jack questioned Locke extensively after returning from the Black Rock about Locke's beliefs. Locke believed that the island had chosen them, they had a purpose, and that Boone's death was a sacrifice the island demanded. Thereafter, Locke went crazy with the button pushing, which Jack DID even though he never believed in that damn button. Interesting that Locke was the person who stopped believing and ended up blowing up the Hatch. Even after that, Jack kept working with Locke until Jack was kidnapped. It wasn't until Locke came, with no intention of finding Jack, but to blow up the sub to keep Jack from leaving. Factor in the knifing of Naomi and Locke STILL not explaining anything to Jack. How does "You're not suppose to do this Jack," and then walking away into the jungle help Jack understand? Then you add in Locke splitting up the Losties in the season four premiere, which ended disastrously for Camp Locke, and I think Jack had every reason not to listen to Locke.

Yes, Locke and Ben were being vague, but couldn't Jack had stopped to take five minutes to talk to Locke and find out WHY he knifed Naomi and WHY he believed that calling the freighter would bring doom? Not to mention his murder attempt on Locke in 4x01. Maybe it's because Locke WOULDN'T give the information. Did Locke explain anything after knifing Naomi? No. He had a gun on Jack. Why didn't he start explaining in that moment? He had the advantage because he had the gun. Jack was stopped cold with the gun pointed at him, and Locke had his moment. He didn't take it. Factor in that Ben ALSO never tells the truth, which Locke confirmed in last night's episode that he NEVER tells the whole truth (or even part of the truth), and you have no reason for Jack to trust or believe either man. I find it amusing that Jack is the one that doesn't understand when neither Locke or Ben have ever been up front with Jack about anything. Jack, a spinal surgeon, STILL doesn't know about Locke's paralysis or his miraculous recovery!

All these are ancillary, anyway, to the fact that the freighter did NOT bring rescue and that Jack failed in his promise to get everyone off the Island.It's true that Jack failed in getting them rescued, although I still have to wait to see why that never happened. However, the fact that Jack spent every waking moment of his 100 days on that island TRYING to get everyone rescued and risking his life and his freedom to ensure that fact is something that should be admired. How does he become the villain? Because he failed? At least he tried. Even last night, he told Kate that he was going to risk his life AGAIN because he promised to get his fellow survivors off the island.

(continued)

I agree, the thing many people on the show and on the board forget is that yes, Locke has made many mistakes, and his ego is just as inflated as Jack's, but Jack couldn't even consider the possibility that the freighties weren't there to rescue them.

Jack was already suspicious of the freighters the minute Daniel set foot on the island. The issue is that Jack didn't care if they were going to rescue them. He and Sayid were going to use whatever means necessary to effect rescue. That much was obvious to me.

Jack coldly cut Sun's very legitimate concerns about the freighties off by saying, "Locke doesn't know what he's doing," which seems a bad way of trying to assuage a woman, who is 1. pregnant on an island where pregnant women die, and 2. has been terrorized by Others for several months. The scene on the airplane where Sun said, "we are in shock Jack," was keeping in her character development this season over the course of the season she has been increasingly doubtful of Jack's decisions and Jack did come off as a bit of an insensitive *** in the plane, it was obvious everyone was in shock. Then why doesn't Sun just do whatever the hell she wants? They are not on the island anymore. They don't have to do what Jack says. It's funny how Sun loves to whine and complain, but she never does anything for herself. Sun is one of those people who points out problems with everyone: Jin, Jack, Juliet, the freighters, etc., but she never has a solution. She's a complainer. Are her points not valid? Sure, they are valid, but either she should take action herself or STFU.

I could understand why Jack wouldn't believe Ben when he said the freighties were there to kill them all, Ben had tortured, lied to, and manipulated them for close to three months. But after hearing the words straight from one of the freighties that they were never there to rescue them, a little caution might be necessary. And when didn't Jack take caution after hearing Dan's statement? If I recall, Jack collapsed moments later from an inflamed appendix. The minute he was back on his feet, Lapidus dropped a SAT phone to which Jack felt that Lapidus wanted them to follow him. Guess what? He did want Jack to follow him. Did Jack take the whole camp with him? No. He went with Kate, and he ASKED her if she wanted to come.

I could even understand going after the helicopter when the phone was thrown off, he didn't know about the bloodbath at Otherville yet. But I cannot fathom continuing to press on after finding out about the slaughter at Otherville, saying that helicopter is our only way off this island doesn't seem to be a good enough reason, they have the zodiac raft.

Jack pressed on because he thought Sayid and Desmond were with Lapidus, and he didn't want to leave them behind. Yeah, he could have chosen to save himself after hearing the news, hopped onto the chopper, headed back to the beach, and then on to the freighter, but he felt that Sayid and Desmond were worth saving. Jack asked Kate to return to the beach with Aaron, and Sawyer went with Jack. Both men opted to risk their lives further after finding out about Hurley. I consider that heroic on their part.

I think all of this is one of the contributing factors to Jack's breakdown in the future, worse than not rescuing your people is realizing the decisions you made contributed to their not being rescued.I do think that Jack's not being able to rescue the survivors certainly contributes to this downward spiral but it certainly wasn't for a lack of trying. Also, we have no idea what happened yet, so I'll wait to pass judgement. From last night's episode it appears that the survivors are taken to the freighter laden with explosives. Daniel, Charlotte, and the rest of the freighter crew have no idea about it, so how is Jack suppose to know? I'm sure that's his fault too.

Sawyer has put himself in danger's way for several of the Losties, notably Walt and Michael in Seasons 1 and 2, Kate, Jin, Bernard and Sayid in Season 3 and Claire and now Hurley this season. He has an heroic soul.

I know that Sawyer has put his life on the line before. My issue with Sawyer prior to the last few episodes is that Sawyer will do something heroic followed by something selfish and loathsome. For instance, yes, he tried to save Walt and Michael, but a few episodes later, he planned and executed the assault of Sun. This is the wife of the man who carried a wounded and unconscious Sawyer through the jungle to get him medical help. Sawyer never even attempted to go back for Jack after Jack saved his life. Sayid went without question.

For the record, I am thrilled at this new side of Sawyer, but I've only just seen him start saving lives with no other hidden agenda.

Maxum can I ask you to marry me? LOL!


Apparently Jack is satan for ever trying to help anyone on the island and as Doc said some people would blame him for world hunger if they could :rolleyes:


People do not seem to put themselves in Jack's shoes. We as an audience get to see the the entire storyline and perspective but put yourself in Jack's shoes.

Has Jack been a flawed leader and made some mistakes? hell ya. It makes him a human being and a flawed one. He is though one of the very few people on the island to even his own risk is out to help,save,rescue and defend the people on the island when very few others are. He bleeds his own blood into Boone o try and sa ve him and almost kills himself, his stitches are ready to pop out but he rather rescue them then worry about himself, and their is about a million more examples of this over the last four seasons but all some people here focus on is what he has done wrong instead of right. For character or shipper prefrences or just b/c they choose only to see the bad.

I love the good and bad about. I love the good b/c well its good lol and the bad b/c it makes him human and complex and relatable to me.

Jack rocked this episode! Kudo's to Matthew Fox!

Maxum can I ask you to marry me? LOL!


Apparently Jack is satan for ever trying to help anyone on the island and as Doc said some people would blame him for world hunger if they could :rolleyes:


People do not seem to put themselves in Jack's shoes. We as an audience get to see the the entire storyline and perspective but put yourself in Jack's shoes.

Has Jack been a flawed leader and made some mistakes? hell ya. It makes him a human being and a flawed one. He is though one of the very few people on the island to even his own risk is out to help,save,rescue and defend the people on the island when very few others are. He bleeds his own blood into Boone o try and sa ve him and almost kills himself, his stitches are ready to pop out but he rather rescue them then worry about himself, and their is about a million more examples of this over the last four seasons but all some people here focus on is what he has done wrong instead of right. For character or shipper prefrences or just b/c they choose only to see the bad.

I love the good and bad about. I love the good b/c well its good lol and the bad b/c it makes him human and complex and relatable to me.

Jack rocked this episode! Kudo's to Matthew Fox!

I agree. I wouldn't have such issues with the character of Jack except that he is held to a ridiculously high standard compared to all the other characters. If Locke, Sawyer, or Sayid screw up, it's completely fine and understandable. If Jack screws up, he's an idiot. If Locke, Sawyer or anyone else acts selfishly, it's hunky dory, but if Jack does it, he's swine. My favorite is if Jack yells or raises his voice to anyone, he's abusive.

I get that Jack messes up. Yes, he can be a stubborn SOB, and he can be single minded, and he certainly can make dumb mistakes, and he does yell, but all these things are done by everyone else too. For a character that supposedly isn't the leader or a hero, he is certainly held to a standard that is almost impossible to attain. I sure couldn't. Where's my orange juice and vodka? ;)

I agree. I wouldn't have such issues with the character of Jack except that he is held to a ridiculously high standard compared to all the other characters. If Locke, Sawyer, or Sayid screw up, it's completely fine and understandable. If Jack screws up, he's an idiot. If Locke, Sawyer or anyone else acts selfishly, it's hunky dory, but if Jack does it, he's swine. My favorite is if Jack yells or raises his voice to anyone, he's abusive.

I get that Jack messes up. Yes, he can be a stubborn SOB, and he can be single minded, and he certainly can make dumb mistakes, and he does yell, but all these things are done by everyone else too. For a character that supposedly isn't the leader or a hero, he is certainly held to a standard that is almost impossible to attain. I sure couldn't. Where's my orange juice and vodka? ;)

That is exactly how I feel. Since Jack was the hero from the begining, anything less than that he gets flamed for. Then when he was all good in season one people said he was boring and not complex or relateable like the others. So just b/c Jack did not start off on the island as a womenizing, con man, racist, sexist, murderous pig and and move up from pond scum to just scum anything less than perfect makes him the devil and then when he is perfect he is boring. :rolleyes:

God forbid we have a character who naturally tries to do the best thing for others and at his core is good but is flawed and messed up and complex. :rolleyes: ;)

I loved the snark. It's so Jack and Sawyer. It's the shipper stuff that doomed any bonding between these guys since season one.


First off, loved your posts - I agree with the poster above who said "I wished more posters saw it the way you do." Jack's heroic qualities are undeniable, and I think we love him for that, faults and all. It's crazy the amount of hatred he whips up around here.

But as for Jack and Sawyer, I doubt TPTB have dropped the ball on that completely. While they clearly hated each other early on, I've always enjoyed how the writers have written their relationship, from rivalry and near-hatred to the grudging respect/friendship that we see now. I'm not one for shipper-talk, nor am I big fan of the love-triangle stuff, but as a man who thinks Kate is damn hot, I always kinda liked how they squared off over a girl. It made sense. Obviously it went beyond that, as they are such polar opposites in so many ways, but I always found it quite realistic that, even in such a circumstance as crash-landing on an island, relationships will develop. That two men should vie for Kate's attention is not surprising, and I always enjoyed the verbal shots Jack and Sawyer would take at one another in front of Kate because of that rivalry (Sawyer, of course, more so than Jack).

Anyways, I'm getting off topic here. I like how they've given us these scenes between the two guys, who really dont much enjoy the others company, and yet we see this slow evolution from early on in the series; Sawyer unselfishly telling Jack about Christian in Australia in S1; their ping-pong match on the beach in S2; and practically all of the banter between them, throughout the series, once they got past the hatred and realized they were basically in this together. In the end, despite their differences, they are not so different. Two sides of the same coin. They will both fight for what they believe in, both will fight to survive, and I'm loving that in the finale it looks like they'll be "survivin'" together. I think this trend will continue...at least until Sawyer dies, of course. ;)

I will say this, all of Jack's negative qualities his ego, stubbornness, self righteousness and conviction that he is right even when he isn't are important, when Jack told Kate, "we have to go back," he meant it and all of these qualities that annoy us are going to help him go back.

First off, loved your posts - I agree with the poster above who said "I wished more posters saw it the way you do." Jack's heroic qualities are undeniable, and I think we love him for that, faults and all. It's crazy the amount of hatred he whips up around here.

Hey, I love your sig! He really doesn't whip up that much hatred. It's the same individuals over and over who create threads about him regarding the same stuff, but that's okay. It keeps Jack the topic of discussion constantly, and that's a good thing in my book. :biggrin:

But as for Jack and Sawyer, I doubt TPTB have dropped the ball on that completely. While they clearly hated each other early on, I've always enjoyed how the writers have written their relationship, from rivalry and near-hatred to the grudging respect/friendship that we see now. I'm not one for shipper-talk, nor am I big fan of the love-triangle stuff, but as a man who thinks Kate is damn hot, I always kinda liked how they squared off over a girl. It made sense. Obviously it went beyond that, as they are such polar opposites in so many ways, but I always found it quite realistic that, even in such a circumstance as crash-landing on an island, relationships will develop. That two men should vie for Kate's attention is not surprising, and I always enjoyed the verbal shots Jack and Sawyer would take at one another in front of Kate because of that rivalry (Sawyer, of course, more so than Jack). Very true. Jack and Sawyer are naturally competitive, but they also have a respect for each other, I think. I love how that relationship is starting to develop now, and I'm kind of bummed that Jack will be leaving and Sawyer will be staying. I've been waiting for this friendship to grow since season one when Sawyer told Jack about his father, but then the shipper crap happened. :mad:

Anyways, I'm getting off topic here. I like how they've given us these scenes between the two guys, who really dont much enjoy the others company, and yet we see this slow evolution from early on in the series; Sawyer unselfishly telling Jack about Christian in Australia in S1; their ping-pong match on the beach in S2; and practically all of the banter between them, throughout the series, once they got past the hatred and realized they were basically in this together. In the end, despite their differences, they are not so different. Two sides of the same coin. They will both fight for what they believe in, both will fight to survive, and I'm loving that in the finale it looks like they'll be "survivin'" together. I've always felt that Jack and Sawyer were kind of similar. I think both men are heroic, smart, stubborn, fighters, lovers, and pretty good at thinking on their feet. They came at those attributes in different ways and in different directions, but it's nice to see how they are teaming up now. I really hope the writers give us some great Jack/Sawyer stuff in rescuing Hurley, with both of them doing some wonderful things.

I think this trend will continue...at least until Sawyer dies, of course. ;)It's possible, but Jack could be joining him. This is Lost, after all. They don't seem to favor happy endings, especially not for Jack. :frown:

I will say this, all of Jack's negative qualities his ego, stubbornness, self righteousness and conviction that he is right even when he isn't are important, when Jack told Kate, "we have to go back," he meant it and all of these qualities that annoy us are going to help him go back.

And many of these qualities helped keep people alive on the 100+ days on the island. Just ask Charlie after he revived him. Well, you can't anymore, but still.

I think Matthew Fox said in an interview before Season 4, "If Jack Shephard says he's going back to the island, he is f*ing going back."

Sawyer never even attempted to go back for Jack after Jack saved his life.

He was respecting Jack's wishes in this case. Considering Jack's response to Kate going back for him, I think Sawyer made the right decision.

Hey, I love your sig! Thanks...yeah, I've always liked their rivalry, their relationship. Their differences, and similarities as, arguably, the two male leads. Like I said earlier, "Two sides of the same coin." I guess Sawyer said it best.

I've always felt that Jack and Sawyer were kind of similar. I think both men are heroic, smart, stubborn, fighters, lovers, and pretty good at thinking on their feet. They came at those attributes in different ways and in different directions, but it's nice to see how they are teaming up now. I really hope the writers give us some great Jack/Sawyer stuff in rescuing Hurley, with both of them doing some wonderful things.

It's possible, but Jack could be joining him. This is Lost, after all. They don't seem to favor happy endings, especially not for Jack. :frown:


Nice, that's how I see it too. That was a great little synopsis of their similarities. I think we'll definitely get those rescue scenes you mentioned. I can't wait for this finale.

As for Jack dying too, totally possible, if not likely - but I hope not. Guess we'll see. :)

I really need for you to tell me the scene and the dialogue where we learned that the island's natural defenses a/k/a the barrier kept Naomi out. I also need to know when it was confirmed that a helicopter was destroyed because that's news to me too.In 3x17, Desmond's party hears helicopter noises, then a helicopter engine sputtering out. Off the coast of the Island there is a huge splash in the water, then Naomi in parachute coasts over the Island to land in the jungle.

Yeah, how stupid of Jack to want to do the will of the rest of the survivors, the idiot.True leadership isn't about doing what everyone else wants you to do. It's about doing what's best and what's right. You get input and information from all perspectives and then you make a decision. Yes, Naomi fooled almost everyone, which is why I said that we can't entirely blame Jack for all this. But he let his own bias toward rescue and his hatred of Locke cloud his judgment and his ability to objectively assess, thus making him a poor leader.

But don't get me wrong, John is a poor leader too.

Even after that, Jack kept working with Locke until Jack was kidnapped. It wasn't until Locke came, with no intention of finding Jack, but to blow up the sub to keep Jack from leaving. Factor in the knifing of Naomi and Locke STILL not explaining anything to Jack. How does "You're not suppose to do this Jack," and then walking away into the jungle help Jack understand? Then you add in Locke splitting up the Losties in the season four premiere, which ended disastrously for Camp Locke, and I think Jack had every reason not to listen to Locke.Rather than extend this debate into other arenas, I'll reiterate my original point, which was simply that Locke was correct about the people on the freighter, and Jack was wrong. I never asserted that Ben and Locke have been the best communicators in the world; conversely, I think it's hard to argue that Jack is the best listener in the world. His obsessive stubbornness is one of the cornerstones of his character, as shown in nearly every centric episode he's had.

It's true that Jack failed in getting them rescued, although I still have to wait to see why that never happened. However, the fact that Jack spent every waking moment of his 100 days on that island TRYING to get everyone rescued and risking his life and his freedom to ensure that fact is something that should be admired. How does he become the villain? Because he failed? At least he tried. Even last night, he told Kate that he was going to risk his life AGAIN because he promised to get his fellow survivors off the island.I guess this is my other big problem with Jack-- the assumption that rescue is what's in everyone's best interests. Earlier you talked about how Locke's group retreated to the barracks with no real plan, and Locke himself admits that he took a long time to figure out what to do next in 4x08. I would argue, though, that taking too long to make a decision is no greater a sin than blindly rushing in chest-first into a bad one.

More to the point, the show has made it quite clear by now that rescue is NOT in the best interests of the survivors, at least not until certain things have been accomplished on the Island. They are there for a purpose, as Locke stated in 1x24, and even Jack has come around to admit that by the time of the flash-forward in 3x22. But while Locke believes too blindly, Jack denies too coldly. LOST is about the duality between these two men and their representative worldviews.

It's also about Jack's spiritual journey, so I know that these pitfalls and catharses must take place as he goes along. But I maintain that some of the blame for the deaths caused by the mercenaries falls upon Jack for stumbling into their trap. And I maintain that Jack is a tool, but not a tool without hope for redemption.

The only thing I'm blaming Jack for was his attitude once he learned the truth about the Freighters and what happened to Locke's group. Instead of accepting that he may have been mistaken, he insulted Sawyer instead. I'm sorry, but I found such behavior rather infantile. If Sawyer, Kate or anyone else had done it, I would feel the same way.

Yes, Jack has a problem with admitting that he's wrong. But if I mus be honest, I can say the same for most of the Losties.

True leadership isn't about doing what everyone else wants you to do. It's about doing what's best and what's right. You get input and information from all perspectives and then you make a decision.

I don't think true leadership entails listening to everyone's perspectives about what to do, because everyone more than likely is going to have a different opinion about what should be done. True leadership imo is about taking in different angles of the situation and doing what is right and best, which may in fact anger and disappoint others in the process. You can't please everyone and with those survivors, Jack is going to please very few with his decisions. It comes with the territory. They just aren't a very smart group of people lol.

He was respecting Jack's wishes in this case. Considering Jack's response to Kate going back for him, I think Sawyer made the right decision.

If Sawyer felt no compunction to go back for Jack after Jack pretty much gave his life for Sawyer then that's pretty sad. Again, as I stated earlier, Sayid went back for him and he wasn't even the one that Jack rescued. Sayid did it because Jack is a friend, and Jack would have done the same for Sayid. Kate went back for him too. Sawyer not going tells me something about him. Heck, he didn't even try to go with Kate knowing that her life would be in danger. If he didn't give a darn about Jack, that's fine, but he just had sex with Kate and told her he loved her, yet he let her go back to Othersville knowing what he put all of them through.

In 3x17, Desmond's party hears helicopter noises, then a helicopter engine sputtering out. Off the coast of the Island there is a huge splash in the water, then Naomi in parachute coasts over the Island to land in the jungle.

There was never any confirmation of any of that stuff, Rodimus. Desmond told Sayid that she parachuted out of a helicopter. What other pilot was on the Freighter other than Frank Lapidus? It was very clearly and deliberately shown to the audience that Abaddon hired Naomi to bring Daniel, Frank, Charlotte, and Miles to the island. Frank was going as the pilot. It wasn't Frank and ANOTHER pilot.

True leadership isn't about doing what everyone else wants you to do. It's about doing what's best and what's right.

And how does any leader know what's best and what's right? That's a judgement call, isn't it? Weren't you just saying that Jack doesn't listen to anyone?

You get input and information from all perspectives and then you make a decision. Yes, Naomi fooled almost everyone, which is why I said that we can't entirely blame Jack for all this. But he let his own bias toward rescue and his hatred of Locke cloud his judgment and his ability to objectively assess, thus making him a poor leader.

So just that I understand you on this, you're saying that Jack should have gone against all the wishes of the Losties, including Desmond, Sayid, Kate, Sawyer, etc., who all wanted to contact the freighter and who risked their lives to get that accomplished? After hatching the plan for Charlie to go down to the Looking Glass Station and shut down the jamming device (with Desmond knowing it's a one way trip), and Sayid, Jin, and Bernard risking their lives to ambush the Others so Jack and company can make it to the tower, and with Sayid asking for Jack's word that he will not allow anything to stop him making the call, you're saying that Jack should have disregarded all of that in favor of not making the call because Locke, a man who hasn't been upfront about anything, told him not do it?

Rather than extend this debate into other arenas, I'll reiterate my original point, which was simply that Locke was correct about the people on the freighter, and Jack was wrong. I never asserted that Ben and Locke have been the best communicators in the world; conversely, I think it's hard to argue that Jack is the best listener in the world. His obsessive stubbornness is one of the cornerstones of his character, as shown in nearly every centric episode he's had.

You can state that Locke was right and Jack was wrong until the cows come home, but any normal, sane individual would have made that call. That's the real issue. Locke and Ben have been having a pissing contest with each other for weeks, and neither man has been upfront about anything, as you agreed. In order for Jack to make an informed decision, he needs information. Communication is essential on all sides, and Jack is certainly guilty of not communicating himself. However, in this specific situation, it was up to Locke to step up and give Jack crucial information if, indeed, the Freighters were bad news. He did nothing. He simply walked away.

I'm also going to say it again that Jack did not bring the Freighters to the island. They already knew where the island was, hence Michael being onboard as Ben's spy. You think that just happened in a day? Also, Naomi was already ON the island.

I guess this is my other big problem with Jack-- the assumption that rescue is what's in everyone's best interests.

If you are stranded on a deserted island for 100 days and you're people are being murdered, kidnapped, tortured, and dropping from illness, how is NOT being rescued in everyone's best interest? Everyone wants to get off the island. With the exception of Locke and Ben, everyone wants to go home. That was not a call made by Jack. It was common sense.

Earlier you talked about how Locke's group retreated to the barracks with no real plan, and Locke himself admits that he took a long time to figure out what to do next in 4x08. I would argue, though, that taking too long to make a decision is no greater a sin than blindly rushing in chest-first into a bad one.

My problem with Locke is creating a rift with the entire camp and dividing them when he had no plan of his own. Isn't that what you are blaming Jack for? Also, why didn't Locke take that opportunity to give Jack any crucial information? Heck, why didn't he give ANYONE crucial information? He had an opportunity to tell all the Losties what he knows, what he has seen, and what he has personally experienced, and he said absolutely nothing. Instead, he took a small group with him so that they would live, and they all died.

More to the point, the show has made it quite clear by now that rescue is NOT in the best interests of the survivors, at least not until certain things have been accomplished on the Island.

You cannot watch Lost from that vantage point, Rodimus. We, the audience, know much more than any of the characters so it's easy to point to them and say "What an idiot. Don't they know such-and-such?" The fact is they DON'T know, which is why we sit on the edge of our seat waiting for each revelation to unfurl on the screen like when Jack found out about Claire. WE knew she was his sister, but he didn't. Is he also to blame for that because he didn't have the intuitive knowledge to know that she was his sister?

They are there for a purpose, as Locke stated in 1x24, and even Jack has come around to admit that by the time of the flash-forward in 3x22. But while Locke believes too blindly, Jack denies too coldly. LOST is about the duality between these two men and their representative worldviews.

I completely agree with you on this point.

It's also about Jack's spiritual journey, so I know that these pitfalls and catharses must take place as he goes along. But I maintain that some of the blame for the deaths caused by the mercenaries falls upon Jack for stumbling into their trap. And I maintain that Jack is a tool, but not a tool without hope for redemption.

I don't put the blame on Jack. I put it on Locke because as I said earlier, he's had an opportunity to be open and honest with his fellow survivors about what he knows, and he has chosen to remain silent. That lack of information to Jack, Sayid, and everyone else leads all of them to make uninformed decisions and ultimately to tragedy.

Does Locke look even remotely upset about all the deaths in his camp?

The only thing I'm blaming Jack for was his attitude once he learned the truth about the Freighters and what happened to Locke's group. Instead of accepting that he may have been mistaken, he insulted Sawyer instead. I'm sorry, but I found such behavior rather infantile. If Sawyer, Kate or anyone else had done it, I would feel the same way.

Actually Jack HAD a reaction to their deaths, unlike Locke, and especially to Claire's disappearance, and he vented his anger and grief against Sawyer. Sawyer, to his credit, saw Jack's reaction for what it was in that moment. His feelings weren't hurt, and he and Jack had a nice snarky moment with both of them taking verbal swipes at each other. In the end, both men joined together to find Hurley.

Yes, Jack has a problem with admitting that he's wrong. But if I mus be honest, I can say the same for most of the Losties.

Absolutely.

If Sawyer felt no compunction to go back for Jack after Jack pretty much gave his life for Sawyer then that's pretty sad. Again, as I stated earlier, Sayid went back for him and he wasn't even the one that Jack rescued. Sayid did it because Jack is a friend, and Jack would have done the same for Sayid. Kate went back for him too. Sawyer not going tells me something about him. Heck, he didn't even try to go with Kate knowing that her life would be in danger. If he didn't give a darn about Jack, that's fine, but he just had sex with Kate and told her he loved her, yet he let her go back to Othersville knowing what he put all of them through.

Actually, Sawyer gave very good reasons not to go back straight away, or turn around the canoe like Kate was ordering. He was honouring Jack's insistence not to go back for him. But even more importantly, the guy had just risked himself to get them off the Hydra island (along with Juliet and Alex I might add). They have NO guns, no supplies, and they had a sick/injured Carl to get to safety. Sorry but it was a completely insane and foolish idea to try to go back and save Jack in the state they were in. The best course WAS to get back to camp first and tell everyone what had happened.

After that, Kate went gallivanting off by herself with her own plan, and didn't even inform Sawyer and didn't really even want Locke and Sayid along but they followed her. Sawyer had gone off to find Hurley. He had no idea she'd even taken off until he got back at dusk with the beers. What was he supposed to do? Go running off in the night when he has virtually no tracking skills? He had no idea where she was going. He would have found out Locke and Sayid had gone with her and assumed she'd be okay as well.

So, let's not blame Sawyer for A) trying to honour Jack's wishes and also be pragmatic about their chances (before they got backup and supplies and oh I don't know GUNS), and then B) Being totally shut out by Kate and missing the posse heading off to save Jack.

And lastly Kate is an independent woman, who makes her own choices and mistakes. I am surprised at the idea that a man should 'allow' her to do anything. What? She needed his permission? Kate can take care of herself, and she did have Sayid and Locke with her, remember? I love that Sawyer worried about her, but at the same time didn't go rushing off (to where? Since he didn't have a clue where she was headed) with the assumption that she'd be some helpless damsel who'd get herself killed without his manly protection as well.

Of course if he'd actually known she was heading out immediatley, I am sure he would have offered to come with. However, after their little lover's spat Kate was being all cold shouldery and didn't let him know what was going on.

How that's Sawyer's fault, I'll never know.


Rather than extend this debate into other arenas, I'll reiterate my original point, which was simply that Locke was correct about the people on the freighter, and Jack was wrong. I never asserted that Ben and Locke have been the best communicators in the world; conversely, I think it's hard to argue that Jack is the best listener in the world. His obsessive stubbornness is one of the cornerstones of his character, as shown in nearly every centric episode he's had.

I completely and utterly agree. Well said.

So, let's not blame Sawyer for A) trying to honour Jack's wishes and also be pragmatic about their chances (before they got backup and supplies and oh I don't know GUNS), and then B) Being totally shut out by Kate and missing the posse heading off to save Jack.

That's giving Sawyer too much undeserved credit. Sawyer had every opportunity once they got back to the beach to do what Kate did and gather supplies to go back for Jack. Sawyer did nothing of the sort. He was not interested in going back for Jack as it was clearly shown that he would rather play with his boys and drink beer then go save the one man that just saved his life. Sawyer didn't miss the posse heading off to save Jack, he clearly didn't stick around long enough once they arrived back to the beach to be included in the journey.

Actually, Sawyer gave very good reasons not to go back straight away, or turn around the canoe like Kate was ordering. He was honouring Jack's insistence not to go back for him. But even more importantly, the guy had just risked himself to get them off the Hydra island (along with Juliet and Alex I might add). They have NO guns, no supplies, and they had a sick/injured Carl to get to safety. Sorry but it was a completely insane and foolish idea to try to go back and save Jack in the state they were in. The best course WAS to get back to camp first and tell everyone what had happened.

I completely agree, Zoriah. I had absolutely no problem with Sawyer not going back for Jack when they were in the canoe and when they first go back to shore and were trekking through the jungle. Sawyer was 100% correct that even attempting to go back for Jack at that point would have been suicide.

After that, Kate went gallivanting off by herself with her own plan, and didn't even inform Sawyer and didn't really even want Locke and Sayid along but they followed her. Sawyer had gone off to find Hurley. He had no idea she'd even taken off until he got back at dusk with the beers. Here's where we disagree. Sawyer KNEW Kate was going back for Jack because Kate was saying it all along. "We have to go back." Are you saying that when they got back to the island together, Sawyer had no idea that Kate was going to go back for Jack? If that's the case, then it means that Sawyer immediately went to go ask about his stuff the minute he hit that beach. Are you saying he was more concerned about getting his stuff than about maybe attempting to rescue a friend who risked his life for him?

Heck, even Sayid and Locke knew that Kate was going to go back for Jack and they went after her. Sayid had not been a prisoner on Alcatraz and not been a witness to what happened to Kate, Jack, and Sawyer, but he was going to risk his life to go back for Jack anyway. How Sawyer doesn't feel even the slightest desire to do the same is beyond me. Also, why would Sawyer just sit around if he knows that Kate is on her way back to Othersville? He knows what happened to them in the hands of the Others, yet he's perfectly fine with her out there on her own?

What was he supposed to do? Go running off in the night when he has virtually no tracking skills? He had no idea where she was going. Neither does Jack, but he's done it (for Claire, Charlie, Walt, etc). You still try to do something. Sawyer did nothing. He got to the beach and wanted his stuff. There's no way that Sawyer could have believed that Kate would be fine just sitting on the beach drinking coconut milk knowing that Jack was still a prisoner. He's not an idiot.

He would have found out Locke and Sayid had gone with her and assumed she'd be okay as well. It doesn't matter if Sayid and Locke went with her because Kate is the woman he was just intimate with and a woman he loves. How does he just leave her? He was willing to go look for Walt and Michael, but not Kate? It's nuts.

So, let's not blame Sawyer for A) trying to honour Jack's wishes Com'on, honoring Jack's wishes? Jack is asking them not to come back for him because he doesn't want them to risk their lives. Do you really think it's because he wants to stay there? Kate ignored Jack's request because she knew he was still a prisoner, and Sawyer seemed to have no problem with it.

and also be pragmatic about their chances (before they got backup and supplies and oh I don't know GUNS), I already agreed about this part, but that was BEFORE they got back to the beach.

and then B) Being totally shut out by Kate and missing the posse heading off to save Jack. Why should Kate have any bearing on what Sawyer should or would do for Jack? Even if Kate wasn't even in the picture, I think Sawyer owed it to Jack to go back for him. At least ATTEMPT to go back for him. It made Sawyer look bad, even the guys I watched it with felt he was whipped. I mean, he was asking about his beer and porn and going joy riding with Jin, Hurley and Charlie with a huge smile on his face. It was just wrong.

And lastly Kate is an independent woman, who makes her own choices and mistakes. I am surprised at the idea that a man should 'allow' her to do anything. What? She needed his permission? Kate can take care of herself, and she did have Sayid and Locke with her, remember? You're right. Kate doesn't need any permission from Sawyer. My issue with Sawyer in that whole situation is 1) he might have gone with Kate to protect her; or 2) he might have gone back just for Jack because Jack is suppose to be his only friend on the island. He did neither.

I love that Sawyer worried about her, I don't recall Sawyer discussing Kate at all, but I don't doubt he was probably worried about her.

but at the same time didn't go rushing off (to where? Since he didn't have a clue where she was headed) with the assumption that she'd be some helpless damsel who'd get herself killed without his manly protection as well. A damsel in distress isn't the issue. It's about helping a friend and going with the woman you love because she's about to risk her neck. I don't know of any guy who would be okay with a girl they love risking her life in the middle of a jungle while he sits on a beach drinking beers and going for van rides. It's not normal behavior, but maybe that's just me.

Of course if he'd actually known she was heading out immediatley, I am sure he would have offered to come with. Sayid and Locke seemed to know. Heck, they wanted to know all the details about what happened. Where was Sawyer? I don't think Sayid and Locke know Kate better than Sawyer does. Do they know her better than Sawyer in that she would go after Jack, but Sawyer wouldn't know this fact? It was written all over her face and in her dialogue with Sawyer all the way back to the beach. How could he not know?

However, after their little lover's spat Kate was being all cold shouldery and didn't let him know what was going on. What is he twelve? Again, you can completely remove Kate from the picture regarding Sawyer not going for her. Sawyer still should have attempted to go back for Jack because of what Jack did for him and because Sawyer, himself, admitted that Jack was his only friend.

How that's Sawyer's fault, I'll never know. For all the above reasons I listed above, but it seems we are now off topic. This is a Jack bashing thread.

AAAAAGGGGHHHH!!! I wrote a big long response and then clicked back and it erased it all. :surprise::doh:

Well I'm not going through it all again. Maxum, you might like to read my article on the duality between Locke and Jack here (http://benlundy.blogspot.com/2008/04/most-important-scene-in-lost.html), and you may also like my Jack music video here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zidmWUiML4). LOST is Jack's journey, but he's made plenty of mistakes on the way and will make many more.

I maintain he is a tool and I like calling him that because I like yelling at my TV screen. And he was wrong about the freighter, but I'm willing to let the subject drop because he's already admitted he was wrong about leaving the Island in 3x22. :dgrin:

That's giving Sawyer too much undeserved credit. Sawyer had every opportunity once they got back to the beach to do what Kate did and gather supplies to go back for Jack. Sawyer did nothing of the sort. He was not interested in going back for Jack as it was clearly shown that he would rather play with his boys and drink beer then go save the one man that just saved his life. Sawyer didn't miss the posse heading off to save Jack, he clearly didn't stick around long enough once they arrived back to the beach to be included in the journey.

Sorry, but what does Sawyer's actions towards Jack over a season ago, have to do with this episode and topic? I know Jack and Sawyer are often compared, but that's not what's at hand here, is it? What we're talking about is Jack's inability to accept and admit to his own mistakes and what that means for his character: judging by his turn around about going back to the island in the future, I'd say it's a very important path that he is on too.

Sorry, but what does Sawyer's actions towards Jack over a season ago, have to do with this episode and topic? I know Jack and Sawyer are often compared, but that's not what's at hand here, is it? What we're talking about is Jack's inability to accept and admit to his own mistakes and what that means for his character: judging by his turn around about going back to the island in the future, I'd say it's a very important path that he is on too.

I was just responding to Zoriah. ;)

I don't think that Jack said "You're not even related to him!!!!" to Kate in order to hurt her intentionally. I think he said it because it has been building up inside of him about how wrong it is to be raising Aaron away from his real mother, and how it's not his OR Kate's place to be doing so. And that is really what a lot of that episode was about... the hauntings and Charlie's message and the "just like heaven" and "Just because I'm happy doesn't mean this isn't real" and everything. I don't think that Jack believes he has a "claim" on Aaron at all... he just heard Hurley telling him that he's not supposed to raise him.

I don't think Jack wants a do over... I think he wants to right his wrong, but it has changed him forever.

*sigh*

Why do these discussions always have to turn into this-character-is-better/worse-and-here-are-my-irrefutable-reasons-why arguments?

Jack is not good listener, he's controlling, he's stubborn, and he's made bad decisions

Locke is too wrapped up in the island to communicate well and doesn't do anything to rehab his image of being crazy (why he has never told Jack about his previous paralysis I'll never know)

Sawyer has been selfish in the past though that trend seems to be shifting

Kate acts impulsively first and thinks later, usually messing up someone else's plans to which she responds by crying and apologizing (very annoying btw)

And I could go on and on...

The point is that all these characters are exactly as the writers have written them and all their individual flaws exist for one purpose: to further the plot. If all the characters asked the right questions and those questions were always answered in a clear manner, if everyone always made the correct decisions then this would have been a very boring (and probably short) show.

Then again, if these "discussions" about the characters didn't happen this would be a very boring forum so...carry on! Not that you need my permission or anything.

*sigh*

Why do these discussions always have to turn into this-character-is-better/worse-and-here-are-my-irrefutable-reasons-why arguments?

Jack is not good listener, he's controlling, he's stubborn, and he's made bad decisions

Locke is too wrapped up in the island to communicate well and doesn't do anything to rehab his image of being crazy (why he has never told Jack about his previous paralysis I'll never know)

Sawyer has been selfish in the past though that trend seems to be shifting

Kate acts impulsively first and thinks later, usually messing up someone else's plans to which she responds by crying and apologizing (very annoying btw)

And I could go on and on...

The point is that all these characters are exactly as the writers have written them and all their individual flaws exist for one purpose: to further the plot. If all the characters asked the right questions and those questions were always answered in a clear manner, if everyone always made the correct decisions then this would have been a very boring (and probably short) show.

Then again, if these "discussions" about the characters didn't happen this would be a very boring forum so...carry on! Not that you need my permission or anything.You got it rove3; if I wanted cardboard-cutout, two dimensional characters whose fate I couldn't care about if I tried, I'd be reading Ayn Rand rather than watching LOST.

Discussing it is cool, though. I just think it's important to step-back sometime to appreciate the awesomeness it all. That people hate or love any of them is really, really good! That's the writers and the actors goal. I love it. I love hating the ones I hate. I love it when they confuse me in the same way real people confuse me....

Edited to add: I also think that a Jack thread will always inevitably come to a contrast and comparison of Jack and Sawyer. There is so much about each of those characters that surfaces when they interact, which is one of the reasons I think the writers saw fit to place Sawyer as Christian's confessor. Discussing Jack's ego, or his strengths and weaknesses requires examination of his relationship with others. I would argue that, literarily the Jack/Sawyer relationship is one of the most significant . All these characters are very damaged human beings, and we're led to believe that their being thrown together is not accidental, which makes it difficult to analyze any of them outside of the role they've taken within the context of the group.
So that's my two cents, and that's all it is. So don't go getting upset with me, guys. Two cents is two cents, I don't think mine is worth more than anyone else's. OK?

I was just responding to Zoriah. ;)

And I was just responding to Maxum, Krystal. ;)


I agree that it's getting off topic. Let's try to keep discussion to the OP which was more about whether Jack ducked acknowledging Locke was right about the freighters or not.

At least it looks like both Jack and Sawyer are in agreement that they need to go rescue Hurley, which is great.

This has been a very interesting thread. I wish I could add more to it, but the one thing that's been on my mind while reading the preceding posts is that Jack didn't know about the zodiac raft when he went rushing after the chopper. Sayid only showed up in the raft AFTER Jack and Kate had run off in the jungle with the SAT phone. So you can't say that Jack is wrong in thinking that the chopper was their (only) ticket off the island when there was a raft available, because there was no raft... as far as Jack was aware.

**Edited**

Jack not only made a mistake about the Freighters, he made a mistake about Ben, he didn't believe when Sayid told him he was one of The Others. he also made a mistake about Michael, and he didn't believe Sayid either this time, once again, and he risked Kate, Sawyer and Hurley with his super plan...
back in season one when he tried to give sleeping pills to Claire and she ran away from the caves and Charlie was the one who went after her and almost died that day...
Jack felt guilty for sure, because that was his mistakes...probably he doesn't have what it take after all.

Jack not only made a mistake about the Freighters, he made a mistake about Ben, he didn't believe when Sayid told him he was one of The Others. he also made a mistake about Michael, and he didn't believe Sayid either this time, once again, and he risked Kate, Sawyer and Hurley with his super plan...
back in season one when he tried to give sleeping pills to Claire and she ran away from the caves and Charlie was the one who went after her and almost died that day...
Jack felt guilty for sure, because that was his mistakes...probably he doesn't have what it take after all.


Has Jack made mistakes? Sure.

Can you name me one character on this show who has not?

At the very least Jack TRIES to do the right thing (even if sometimes they are wrong choices) he never purposely goes out to hurt others unlike some other characters on this show. Hes been wrong in the past, had an attitude and been human and flawed and complex but that is every character on this show.

And I was just responding to Maxum, Krystal. ;)


I agree that it's getting off topic. Let's try to keep discussion to the OP which was more about whether Jack ducked acknowledging Locke was right about the freighters or not.

At least it looks like both Jack and Sawyer are in agreement that they need to go rescue Hurley, which is great.

That was one of the best parts of the episode: Jack and Sawyer working together, being snarky, and pulling together to help a friend. And Kate went back to the beach. :biggrin:

Has Jack made mistakes? Sure.

Can you name me one character on this show who has not?

At the very least Jack TRIES to do the right thing (even if sometimes they are wrong choices) he never purposely goes out to hurt others unlike some other characters on this show. Hes been wrong in the past, had an attitude and been human and flawed and complex but that is every character on this show.

everybody made mistake, but they also admit they made one and say sorry for...
Jack only said sorry to Hurley when he dragged him Kate and Sawyer into their possible death in season 2 finale, he tried and failed but he didn't admitted.
no one is trying to be the hero or the leader they are just trying to do the right thing.

Jack's inability to admit he's wrong is one of the reasons I don't like him. It's not a crime to admit you've made mistakes. It's not a crime to admit you don't have all the answers. I'd like Jack if he got over his savior complex and admit that everyone brings something valuable to the mix. Just because the man is a doctor doesn't give him the edge on morality or being right. Apparently people are beginning to realize that this season. And Jack realized that in the S3 finale. Good.

**edited**

So because Jack tries to do what is good and his intentions are not malicious or evil or born out of hate but sometimes his good intentions back fire and he becomes human by making the wrong choice for the right reasons, your saying he deserves to be crucified more than the people that are jerks 99% of the time but the one time they surprise us and show they have a sliver of a soul need to have a ticker tape parade devoted to them?

Sorry to say guys but Jack makes mistakes and to me that makes him interesting. It makes it even more interesting to me that often when he tries to do the right thing it backfires. It makes him human and complex to me.

So basically the message we are sending here is its better to not try and do the right thing and only once in a while be good b/c its unexpected v.s trying all the time to do the right thing even though in life it might backfire and not be right?


hmmmm :confused:

Twice in this episode, maybe more, Jack said things that could be taken as cold and unfeeling, like it totally went over his head what was going on with the other person/persons. In the scene with Sawyer, he mad that statement to an obviously torn-up, exhausted, frantic man who had been through something really bad. Did Jack see that at all? No, it seems like he could only pick up on what he took to be criticism of himself. And in the scene on the plane he rambles on about pretending to be in shock when everyone else is totally and obviously devastated and in shock, When Sun calls his attention to this, he replies, "Well, then, it should be easy." I could not believe he said either of those two things. Talk about "bad bedside manner."

Granted, Jack is trying really hard to get everyone rescued and is being obsessively driven to this end to the point of harming his own self. And I don't think Jack's calling the freighter in TTLG was his fault or whatever. He did what everyone wanted at that point. But I think we are being shown the flaws in Jack's character quite clearly for a reason and in the end, Jack will finally do some growing and redeem himself--probably by dying in a dramtic and heroic way as befitting his larger-than-life character.

I noticed that as well sanfrannan and the comment he made to Juliet. “Because I promised those people that I would get them off this island,”

Those people, his promise, he will get them off the Island. Never willing to share the burden, ask for help, or include those people in his plans or his decisions. Those people, who have just as much a stake in what is going on and should have some say, but they are merely those people to Jack. He makes the decisions and unfortunatly for him, the mistakes are his and his alone, because he lets no one else have a voice.

It's not about those people, it is about Jack. He has to be right, has to speak for everyone and he does it again, on the plane. Sad that those people have allowed that but it's probably another good topic for another good discussion thread.

In the end Jack himself admits in TTLG that he was wrong but even then he says "We made a mistake". We. No Jack, you made a mistake, own it because you were so sure you were right and everyone else was wrong. Locke, Ben, Sayid, and Sawyer were wrong. Everyone who started to question you, Juliet, Sun, and Rose were wrong. Everyone was right Jack and you couldn't, wouldn't see it because you couldn't, wouldn't admit you could be wrong.

I noticed that as well sanfrannan and the comment he made to Juliet. “Because I promised those people that I would get them off this island,”

Those people, his promise, he will get them off the Island. Never willing to share the burden, ask for help, or include those people in his plans or his decisions. Those people, who have just as much a stake in what is going on and should have some say, but they are merely those people to Jack. He makes the decisions and unfortunatly for him, the mistakes are his and his alone, because he lets no one else have a voice.

It's not about those people, it is about Jack. He has to be right, has to speak for everyone and he does it again, on the plane. Sad that those people have allowed that but it's probably another good topic for another good discussion thread.

In the end Jack himself admits in TTLG that he was wrong but even then he says "We made a mistake". We. No Jack, you made a mistake, own it because you were so sure you were right and everyone else was wrong. Locke, Ben, Sayid, and Sawyer were wrong. Everyone who started to question you, Juliet, Sun, and Rose were wrong. Everyone was right Jack and you couldn't, wouldn't see it because you couldn't, wouldn't admit you could be wrong.


Are we watching the same show?

When Jack and Locke chose sides I never saw Jack have a gun to any of the survivors heads telling them they had to go with him or they would shoot. They CHOOSE to follow him and stand behind him as the others CHOOSE to stand behind Locke did as well.

And from the begining it was even Locke himself who appointed Jack leader in season one when he didn't even at first want the responsibility.

Also Jack doesn't have to speak for anyone. They don't have to follow them. Last time I checked they were not mutes and could stand up to Jack and not follow him, not listen to what he says, not take his orders. Since when was it's Jack's responsibility that others decide to listen to him?

When Jack speaks and someone disagree's its THEIR responsibility to voice disagreement or not follow him. It is not his.
And for someone who has saved practically everyone on that islands life more than once I would consider them his people and when he makes statements like that and others disagree its their responsibility to tell him.

**edited**
I think what makes Jack a little less than stellar in some people's eyes is **edited** HE has instead turned from typical hero into something that is less knight-in-shining armor, less likeable, less of what you believe someone supposedly noble should be. Why can't people comment on that?

So because Jack tries to do what is good and his intentions are not malicious or evil or born out of hate but sometimes his good intentions back fire and he becomes human by making the wrong choice for the right reasons, your saying he deserves to be crucified more than the people that are jerks 99% of the time... Was pulling the trigger on Locke not born out of hate? If not, then please inform me what good intentions were behind that. I think you would want us all to believe that Jack's choices come from his warm, fuzzy heart and gosh darn it all if they don't just work out sometimes. If you truly believe Jack is an interesting character and full of complexity then I think you should consider that sometimes his choices are not all about doing the right thing or "having the best of intentions." Sometimes they are about being human and petty and controlling.

You often ask people what show they are watching. We are all watching the same show you are--**edited**

Are we watching the same show?

When Jack and Locke chose sides I never saw Jack have a gun to any of the survivors heads telling them they had to go with him or they would shoot. They CHOOSE to follow him and stand behind him as the others CHOOSE to stand behind Locke did as well.

And from the begining it was even Locke himself who appointed Jack leader in season one when he didn't even at first want the responsibility.

Also Jack doesn't have to speak for anyone. They don't have to follow them. Last time I checked they were not mutes and could stand up to Jack and not follow him, not listen to what he says, not take his orders. Since when was it's Jack's responsibility that others decide to listen to him?

When Jack speaks and someone disagree's its THEIR responsibility to voice disagreement or not follow him. It is not his.
And for someone who has saved practically everyone on that islands life more than once I would consider them his people and when he makes statements like that and others disagree its their responsibility to tell him.
His people? Yes they should be thankful for him saving their lives. But shouldn't Jack be thankful for Juliet saving his? I don't recall him doing that.

His people? Yes they should be thankful for him saving their lives. But shouldn't Jack be thankful for Juliet saving his? I don't recall him doing that.

Just because we don't see every single conversation that takes place between everyone doesn't mean that they don't happen. I am sure that Jack appreciates what Juliet did, and has or will thank her, though we may not get to see that oh so interesting story line........ as I'm sure most of the Losties appreciate what Jack has done for them. Other Losties just have a funny way of showing their "appreciation".

You often ask people what show they are watching. We are all watching the same show you are--**Edited**


This is a good point to remember, for ALL of us. LOST is a show about redemption and perfect people probably don't need redemption. LOST is not about perfect people; there is no black and white; there is no 100% virtuous hero just as there is no 100% evil villain. To think so does a disservice to the efforts of the writers in giving us some wonderfully complex characters.

I don't see the point of hating Jack because he has sometimes stood in opposition to Locke or Sawyer or any other Lostie. Likewise, to hate Sawyer or Locke because they have at times opposed Jack is equally pointless. No single character on the show has been written as being static. They are ALL evolving, some for the better and some for the worse but until the screen fades to black for the last time no one's journey is over. So, to hate on a character based on how they were initially presented is to ignore the journey the writers have created for that character.

My favorite character on the show is Sawyer (just so everyone knows where I am coming from), but it does not blind me to his faults (I still mourn for the poor little tree frog). It also does not preclude me from appreciating Jack's journey, or that of any other character. They all bring something interesting to the show and w/o one of them the show would have been less than what it is. But I guess that's just me. :frown: