Sun told her father she bought enough shares of Paik Industries to have a controlling interest. Your typical corporation is worth hundreds of millions of dollars right? How much could Sun have got from Oceanic to buy enough shares to control Paik Industries?!! A few million bucks ain't enough, to be sure. Hmm...?

perhaps she already had some shares in her name through her father or something.

I can only imagine she received an enormous settlement! She would, however, probably be compensated for Jin's death as well...

If you notice the guys talking before she shows up they are talking about multiple bank accounts. Are the other Oceanic 6 helping to buy out the company? Does that mean they know a lot more about what's going on now?

I was thinking it must have been a massive settlement if she was able to buy controlling shares in Paik Industries! Maybe somewhere in the neightborhood of $500,000,000 or something.

If you notice the guys talking before she shows up they are talking about multiple bank accounts. Are the other Oceanic 6 helping to buy out the company? Does that mean they know a lot more about what's going on now?

That's an interesting idea. Also, there's Hurley's fortune....

Ah Hurley - Think you may have hit it on the head. Also ties in to his visiting her when they visit Jin's memorial.

maybe this is how Ben is able to fund his band of island dwellers, obviously they would have done it before, probably several times.

That's an interesting idea. Also, there's Hurley's fortune....

Hurley's fortune is a good point (and one that my fiancee just made when discussing this question), but I like better the idea that the O6 (minus Aaron) all contributed towards getting control of Paik Industries. Perhaps that's what Jack is asking Hurley about in the mental institution when wondering if he's going to say anything?

I just think someone like Paik wouldn't be running an enterprise that could be taken over like that.

I think it is the 06 pooling their resources. It can't be Hurley's lottery winnings because he let his parents keep it and said he wants nothing to do with it.

I really hope this is a mystery and we're not suposed to believe that an airline could afford to pay out enough for Sun to buy a controlling share of Paik. Times that by six and it's six times as unlikely.

No, I think that there is much more to her getting the money from an Oceanic settlement. I think that someone funded her, and also convinced her that her father was responsible of Jin's death. Maybe it's Ben... he made Sayid into a assassin. The fact that there were many banks involved sounds like Ben, because he has interests in many countries.
Mr. Paik is somehow connected with Widmore.. and that would definitely make him Ben's enemy.

I was thinking it must have been a massive settlement if she was able to buy controlling shares in Paik Industries! Maybe somewhere in the neightborhood of $500,000,000 or something.

Exactly Guinevere, this is something I just don't get. Five hundred million for 5 survivors (not sure what they would have given Aaron) would put that figure at 2.5 billion!!! Not too mention if Oceanic paid some type of money to brereaved families. Would Oceanic even be worth that much? And would Oceanic as a company be worth as much as Paik Industries? I don't know it seems weird. Although the idea that the discussion before Sun arrived about the 5 Bank accounts could mean something is a nice idea........

so instead of getting all scrunchy faced why didn't Paik laugh it off as impossible? he definately knows how much she got from Oceanic:confused:

No, I think that there is much more to her getting the money from an Oceanic settlement. I think that someone funded her, and also convinced her that her father was responsible of Jin's death. Maybe it's Ben... he made Sayid into a assassin. The fact that there were many banks involved sounds like Ben, because he has interests in many countries.
Mr. Paik is somehow connected with Widmore.. and that would definitely make him Ben's enemy.

This is also a great idea, very believeable. If Ben could have gotten Miles the $3.2 million, perhaps he does have alot of money in several bank accounts.

There's no way the money she used to buy out Paik was derived only from an Oceanic settlement.

If Oceanic gave each of the O6 the amount of money required to do something like that for their settlements, they would be out of business immediately.

Then again, several prominent real airlines have gone bankrupt multiple times and still seem to be around... lol

Miles asked for 3.2 million....pennies as far as taking over Paik is concerned.

Even with Hurley's money I can't believe they would have anywhere near enough. Their settlements wouldn't have been larger than $10m each I believe. They'd still be short a couple hundred million at least.

Unless Paik Industries isn't worth as much as the impression I've gotten from the show.

people getting unreasonably high settlements, huge corporations being taken over by people who shouldn't be able to afford to, bizzare murder trials...humongous five week old babies....six month pregnant women looking like they just did about a bazillion stomach crunches.......Being home is too weird. I think I want to go back too!

Unless Paik Industries isn't worth as much as the impression I've gotten from the show.

Yeah, if Paik Industries is really the mega automobile manufacturer it's made out to be, it would take a billion plus.

I just did a random search of automobile company takeovers and they range in the billions. Ford bought Volvo operations in 1999 for $6.45 billion, and that was 9 years ago. Granted Sun didn't buy the whole company, but it would still be pretty up there.

Yeah, if Paik Industries is really the mega automobile manufacturer it's made out to be, it would take a billion plus.

I just did a random search of automobile company takeovers and they range in the billions. Ford bought Volvo operations in 1999 for $6.45 billion, and that was 9 years ago. Granted Sun didn't buy the whole company, but it would still be pretty up there.
Maybe she siphoned away money from her father or the company. If Ben was a part of this "takeover" then if anyone could figure out how to beat Paik,it's him!

Ok for some reason I thought Paik was just an automotive manufacturer. I just looked on lostpedia about Mr. Paik though and it's much more.
Paik Heavy Industries is a MEGA corporation that has several subsidiaries, only one of which is a car manufacturer. They also do industrial manufacturing and other big business.

So yeah...
definitley at the very least several billion would be needed to do what Sun did.
No way it was from an Oceanic settlement or even from a pool of settlement money from all the O6. Not enough, no way.

I'm betting as his daughter, she probably had a size able amount of shares already, and potentially got help from her mother, who also owned shares. She wouldn't have had to buy 100% of outstanding shares, or even 51%, she would just have to have more than any other person right? I'm not a business major, so maybe my understanding is off. Anybody with some actual background know the definition of "controlling interest"? I'm betting this isn't going to be resolved on the show, seems like it's just another plot device, but it's fun to speculate.

Alright, at first glance it seems ridiculous. You figure she gets $5 to $10 million for her own personal injuries. As you'd expect Jack, Sayid, and Hurley would get. Kate would get less because she's a convict but she'd also get some on behalf of Aaron. So, at even $10 mill, Sun's recovery can't come close to covering the cost of the purchase.

However, we can't forget that she has a wrongful death claim. Given the fact that Jin probably earned a lot of money annually (killing people for Sun's dad), and she was deprived of all his future lost income, she's probably due a far larger sum than I figured when I initially saw the scene.

When you start talking a max insurance policy of about $30 million with the airline exposed to additional funding, it becomes more believable. With the loss of a, presumably, high income husband, Sun gets paid far more than the rest of the Oceanic Six.

Alright, at first glance it seems ridiculous. You figure she gets $5 to $10 million for her own personal injuries. As you'd expect Jack, Sayid, and Hurley would get. Kate would get less because she's a convict but she'd also get some on behalf of Aaron. So, at even $10 mill, Sun's recovery can't come close to covering the cost of the purchase.

However, we can't forget that she has a wrongful death claim. Given the fact that Jin probably earned a lot of money annually (killing people for Sun's dad), and she was deprived of all his future lost income, she's probably due a far larger sum than I figured when I initially saw the scene.

When you start talking a max insurance policy of about $30 million with the airline exposed to additional funding, it becomes more believable. With the loss of a, presumably, high income husband, Sun gets paid far more than the rest of the Oceanic Six.

Even if true I don't think it would be enough. Like I said, Paik Heavy Industries is more than likely a multi-billion dollar corporation.

I'm also not so sure that Sun would've already owned too many shares in Paik since her father was always furious with her and very untrustworthy of her. Not to mention she was legally dead for several months and any shares she owned would've been dispersed elsewhere by then (I think?).

Alright, at first glance it seems ridiculous. You figure she gets $5 to $10 million for her own personal injuries. As you'd expect Jack, Sayid, and Hurley would get. Kate would get less because she's a convict but she'd also get some on behalf of Aaron. So, at even $10 mill, Sun's recovery can't come close to covering the cost of the purchase.

However, we can't forget that she has a wrongful death claim. Given the fact that Jin probably earned a lot of money annually (killing people for Sun's dad), and she was deprived of all his future lost income, she's probably due a far larger sum than I figured when I initially saw the scene.

When you start talking a max insurance policy of about $30 million with the airline exposed to additional funding, it becomes more believable. With the loss of a, presumably, high income husband, Sun gets paid far more than the rest of the Oceanic Six.

There were over 300 hundred passengers on that flight weren't there? Only 6 survived so that means there could potentially be 300 wrongful death suits? Plus, someone may have had 3 or 4 family members die on the flight, so they would theoretically get more than Sun. That many wrongful death suits at even 10 million each would put Oceanic's settlement at $3 billion. Seems unlikely.......Plus Sun would need in the mid to upper $100 millions to make the "takeover" purchase somewhat believable. She must have had financing from some other, or several other backers.

I'm betting as his daughter, she probably had a size able amount of shares already, and potentially got help from her mother, who also owned shares. She wouldn't have had to buy 100% of outstanding shares, or even 51%, she would just have to have more than any other person right? I'm not a business major, so maybe my understanding is off. Anybody with some actual background know the definition of "controlling interest"? I'm betting this isn't going to be resolved on the show, seems like it's just another plot device, but it's fun to speculate.
I agree with you that she probably had a generous amount of shares herself and maybe got help from her mother and/or Ben.
"Controlling interest" usually means 50% plus at least one share but I think can be something less depending on the shareholder agreement.

I'm betting as his daughter, she probably had a size able amount of shares already, and potentially got help from her mother, who also owned shares. She wouldn't have had to buy 100% of outstanding shares, or even 51%, she would just have to have more than any other person right? I'm not a business major, so maybe my understanding is off. Anybody with some actual background know the definition of "controlling interest"? I'm betting this isn't going to be resolved on the show, seems like it's just another plot device, but it's fun to speculate.

According to Wikipedia:

Controlling interest in a corporation means to have control of a large enough block of voting stock (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stock) shares in a company such that no one stock holder or coalition of stock holders can successfully oppose a motion. In theory this normally means that controlling interest would be 50% of the voting shares plus one.
In practice, though, controlling interest can be far less than that, as it is rare that 100% of a company's voting shareholders actively vote.
In addition, a company that requires a 2/3 super-majority of shares to vote in favor of a motion, can grant, in effect, veto power to a minority shareholder or block of shareholders that own essentially 1/3 of the shares. Thus in some cases, a single entity can essentially maintain control, with only 33.4% of the outstanding shares. Ford Motor Company (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Motor_Company)'s ownership of 33.4% of Mazda (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mazda) is an example of a controlling interest with minority shareholding.

I'm sure also had a trust fund that likely consisted of shares and/or stock options in the company. Even if she has a trust fund and Mr. Paik had slid her 5 percent of the company when she turned 21 via a trust fund, $50 million would be a nice addition to that base.

It's not implausible when you consider the additional suit she has. Obviously there are holes, namely that it would probably take her three years to get a hold of the settlement money, but it is more likely when you look at various angles.

While the scene was incredulous, and I was starting to believe the "jump-the-shark" talk about the show for a minute, upon further examination it doesn't look that absurd. The greater issue was that it was presented as something that had happened shortly after the Oceanic Six's return to the island. I understand that they pushed that through to change the dynamics of the post-island landscape, but it was certainly a bit of a forced scene.

I've written off such disjointed and rushed aspects of the last few episodes as inequities caused by the fact that there was a strike and three hours of the season were lost, excuse the pun.

According to my friend, you don't need to have 51% of shares to have controlling interest. You could have as little as 15%. Also, there are different stock levels, with some (voting stock) being more valuable in terms of controlling the company.

From wikipedia: Controlling interest in a corporation means to have control of a large enough block of voting stock shares in a company such that no one stock holder or coalition of stock holders can successfully oppose a motion. In theory this normally means that controlling interest would be 50% of the voting shares plus one.

In practice, though, controlling interest can be far less than that, as it is rare that 100% of a company's voting shareholders actively vote.

In addition, a company that requires a 2/3 super-majority of shares to vote in favor of a motion, can grant, in effect, veto power to a minority shareholder or block of shareholders that own essentially 1/3 of the shares. Thus in some cases, a single entity can essentially maintain control, with only 33.4% of the outstanding shares. Ford Motor Company's ownership of 33.4% of Mazda is an example of a controlling interest with minority shareholding.

The converstation between Sun and her father made it sound like the settlement was huge.

I doubt their money came from the airline. At least not the 6 survivers. Their money probably came from who ever has been funding Ben and the crew who were living on the island. I doubt they know that is where their money came from.

I also doubt Sun had any shares of the company. Her father is old fashion and in that culture it was all about the men. Which was why who she married was so important. Because in the end Jin would have ended up with the company not Sun.

I really don't think anyone had to convince Sun that it was her fathers fault Jin was on that plane. She was powerless to do nothing but watch the gental man she loved almost turn in to a complete monster because of her father.

To me the important questions is who is the 2nd person she blames ?

Hurley's money

Kate would get less because she's a convictKate would get the same as everyone else. She was legally on the plane as a passenger. Its not like she hijacked it for her ride or anything... :rolleyes:

It's ridiculous to think that a company that size could be taken over for less than multi billion dollars. It's even more ridiculous to think that Paik wouldn't be aware of a takeover bid.

Sun's dad said the money was routed threw 4 diffrent banks,my thought Ben

perhaps she took the settlement money, as well as any other money she had, stock, shares, etc and used it all as collateral for a loan, from '5 banks' as Paik's men were speaking of when she came up the stairs-
banks lend money al the time-
i thought she did say '51%' of your company....

It's ridiculous to think that a company that size could be taken over for less than multi billion dollars. It's even more ridiculous to think that Paik wouldn't be aware of a takeover bid.

He could have been aware, but hostial take overs do happen.
Sometimes you can be aware, but you can't do anything to stop it.

Like I said in my other post. I do not think the 06s money came from the airline. That is just the cover story.

Sun told her father she bought enough shares of Paik Industries to have a controlling interest. Your typical corporation is worth hundreds of millions of dollars right? How much could Sun have got from Oceanic to buy enough shares to control Paik Industries?!! A few million bucks ain't enough, to be sure. Hmm...?
Great post, that is exactly what I was wondering last night! I mean, Peik's company is worth hundreds of millions of dollars or, more likely, billions, from everything we've been led to believe. He is an extremely powerful and rich man. I even theorized early on that he was part of some vast international "Off-Island Other" cartel-type thaaaang with Hanso/Widmore/Mittelos BioScience et al., before we learned that Widmore and Mittelos are on opposite sides (Widmore is behind Dharma, Mittelos is the "Hostiles", a.k.a., our wacky Others). So how much did Oceanic pay each of the 6, because unless it was, like, at LEAST fifty million dollars EACH, I don't see how Sun could have bought controlling interest in Peik's company. So, I do have another theory brewing now:

What if Ben (whom we know is worth millions, at least) somehow instructed Sun to buy controlling interest in Peik's company and FUNDED that? We know Sayid is following Ben's orders, what if Sun is, too? What if Peik is, afterall, in there with the Widmore side of the epic battle between the Others and the Dharma side of things, and this just one front of Ben's ongoing attack?

I think there is more to Sun's takeover of Daddy's biz than avenging the way he treated Jin and drove Sun and Jin to be on Oceanic 815 that fateful day. No...something more is going on here, this fan theorizes!
100%
No, I think that there is much more to her getting the money from an Oceanic settlement. I think that someone funded her, and also convinced her that her father was responsible of Jin's death. Maybe it's Ben... he made Sayid into a assassin. The fact that there were many banks involved sounds like Ben, because he has interests in many countries.
Mr. Paik is somehow connected with Widmore.. and that would definitely make him Ben's enemy.
Ah, now that I read further into the thread, I see that I am not alone in my theory! Great LOST fan minds think alike!

..D*mn, we're good!

I think it is the 06 pooling their resources. It can't be Hurley's lottery winnings because he let his parents keep it and said he wants nothing to do with it.

But Hurley would have gotten the same massive settlement as everyone else. Perhaps he doesn't like being rich and would give Sun most of that money?

What I think is interesting is how this gives the O6 direct access to the kind of corporate resources they might need to get back to the island eventually.

But Hurley would have gotten the same massive settlement as everyone else. Perhaps he doesn't like being rich and would give Sun most of that money?

What I think is interesting is how this gives the O6 direct access to the kind of corporate resources they might need to get back to the island eventually.

Don't forget Hurley being the only that shows up to go to Jins grave.
Maybe he is helping her with the take over.
That makes me wonder if the second person isn't someone Hurley is also out of get. Either, Jack, Syaid or Kate

"Here's the plan. We get the warhead and we hold the world ransom for... ONE MILLION DOLLARS!"

Oh shoot, that is next week. Anyway, I think the writer of this episode has been watching too many state lottery commercials, wherein some sad sack wins the lottery and then suddenly they are the owner of some incredibly large entity. Sorry, folks, that doesn't really happen.

I know we have to allow the writers some dramatic license, but the whole scene seemed so ridiculous, and that is aside from the fact that a settlement check, or even five of them, from Oceanic Air would be a mere pitance compared to what it would take money-wise (billions with a b) to take control of a company the size of Paik Industries.

Now, imagine someone buying up large blocks of shares of a mega-large company's stock and no one in the financial community cueing in the company CEO on who is doing the buying. This stretches the boundaries of incredulity. I'm not a financial geek (far from it) and even I know that much.

The implausibility of this scene wreaked with that "only in Hollywood" flavor, which Lost usually is usually adept at avoiding, I suppose that is the reason why it bothers me so much.

Hurley's money

You mean Hurley's cursed money. It her money came from Hurley, I wonder if Sun is worried about the curse????

Just to echo some similar thoughts, but I believe we're supposed to understand:

* Each member of the O6 received a huge settlement from Oceanic Airlines. The concept, rather than the number is what's important.

* Sun's ability to gain a controlling interest in Paik Industries was a multifaceted effort pooled from five differant bank accounts. She had help.

* Oceanic Airlines has much deeper pockets than a normal airline would have (even with "insurance"). It is but one cog of many in much larger and much wealthier endeavor. My guess is The Hanso Foundation.

why would she be worried about the curse. the only one ever worried about it is hurley. nobody ever believes the poor guy.....just the french woman.

She was very pregnant in that seen, so this wasn't something that happened a week or so after they got back. I doubt that Oceanic gave them enough for her to make that kind of a purchase with, but I don't doubt that a substantial offer was made (to avoid the lawsuit if possible) and I'm sure if it was accepted, it was signed off on immediately so that noone could change their mind. Hurley's dad confirmed that Hurley gave his parents the lottery money. There's alot we haven't seen yet, and although I have a hard time thinking Sun would work with Ben, I never thought Sayid would either. Ben is the master manipulator.

But Hurley would have gotten the same massive settlement as everyone else. Perhaps he doesn't like being rich and would give Sun most of that money?

What I think is interesting is how this gives the O6 direct access to the kind of corporate resources they might need to get back to the island eventually.

Oh I don't think Hurley has any problem spending the Oceanic settlement money, but he very clearly said he doesn't want anything to do with the Lottery money.

"Whoever did it Sir, used five different banks."

Who those other four accounts belonged to and WHY they needed to take over Paik is going to be more interesting than Sun getting revenge.

I like your thinking rr.

Sun's dad said the money was routed threw 4 diffrent banks,my thought Ben

That's exactly what went through my mind as well. I also thought maybe Hugo pooled his money with Sun too.

It IS a stretch, but

(1) Sun and her co-conspirators could have financial backing from a private equity firm or a consortium of private equity groups . . . they don't have to put up all the money themselves. In fact, that's how it's usually done.

(2) If Paik Heavy Industries is already in financial trouble and heavily in debt, it might be possible to pick it up at a fire-sale price.

(3) Paik might know that a hostile group (or several, for that matter) is maneuvering for takeover, yet be surprised by the endgame.

Whatever the case, this is setting up an interesting dynamic for the future. If Sun takes her father's place in the mythology cabal on the show (Widmore, Paik, Hanso, Linus), and demonstrates enough resolve to seek revenge for her suffering, head's could roll!

Whatever the case, this is setting up an interesting dynamic for the future.

What it does is set up the scenario for Sun to head back to the island. Paik doesn't seem like a kind of person who would give up his power too easily. Certainly not to his daughter.

Whatever the case, this is setting up an interesting dynamic for the future. If Sun takes her father's place in the mythology cabal on the show (Widmore, Paik, Hanso, Linus), and demonstrates enough resolve to seek revenge for her suffering, head's could roll!

I can't wait until Sun meets Penelope. Two of the most formidable women in LOST history, united!

I found this singularly implausible, to be honest. I got the impression Paik was in the Widmore stakes, i.e. unimaginably wealthy. I don't think there's any way Sun could afford a controlling interest even if all the 06 received massive settlements, added it to Hurley's fortune, staked it on a winning horse at 100-1 and then used it as security for a loan.

Apparently we have been overestimating Paik's power and fortune. But I do think Hurley gave her a good share of his megabudget, as a hidden partner. They clearly become closer friends later, as Hurley went to Jin's "memorial".

You can easilly take a loan from the bank to acquire shares of another company - its called a "leveraged buyout". This is what Private Equity funds do all the time. Paik's men said that the person used five banks to finance the deal.

To clarify: Lets say Paik's firm was worth $1 billion. Sun would NOT need to have $500 million in cash to buy a controlling stake. She would only need a portion of that amount (say $50M or $100M) and the banks would simply lend her the rest. It happens every day in the business world.

So the transaction is definition believable, assuming Sun and Jin received fair compensation packages from Oceanic.

Apparently we have been overestimating Paik's power and fortune. But I do think Hurley gave her a good share of his megabudget, as a hidden partner. They clearly become closer friends later, as Hurley went to Jin's "memorial".

I take the opposite view. Perhaps we don't quite understand how deep the pockets are of Sun and her "partners." Paik is very wealthy and very powerful. Sun has somehow trumped that.

I found this singularly implausible, to be honest.. To be honest, I believe we were all supposed to find it singularly implausible. We're supposed to be looking further.

I take the opposite view. Perhaps we don't quite understand how deep the pockets are of Sun and her "partners." Paik is very wealthy and very powerful. Sun has somehow trumped that.
Exactly. The somehow should be very interesting.

Guys, she BORROWED money from FIVE different banks. Paiks cronies say as much. She probably used a big portion of her own settlement as collateral (say $50M or $100M) and the banks financed the rest of the deal.

Think about it: If the bank will give you a mortgage of $500K to buy a house when you only put down $50K as a down payment (10%), how much do you think they will lend you if you have $50M or $100M?

Here is Wikpedias explanation of a "leveraged buyout" - the term for buying a controlling stake in a company using loans from banks:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leveraged_buyout

A leveraged buyout (or LBO, or highly-leveraged transaction (HLT) occurs, when a financial sponsor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financial_sponsor) acquires a controlling interest in a company's equity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ownership_equity) and where a significant percentage of the purchase price is financed through leverage (borrowed money)....Typically the debt portion of a LBO ranges from 50%-85% of the purchase price, but in some very rare cases debt may represent up to 95% of purchase price.

Who is "Yoon"?
Mr. Paik calls for him after he chews out his men for letting something like this happen.

He could be the guy right under Mr. Paik who cleared Sun's purchase of controlling interest in the company.

I thought that in addition to the significant settlement she might have had a large trust fund which helped her buy interest in her father's company.

I've been suggesting for more than a year now that Paik and Widmore were on opposing sides in a struggle that's been going on in the background of the story.

I've also been suggesting that Paik has been looking for the island and that the watch Jin was supposed to deliver contained a transponder that would have been used to locate the island. Sun wasn't supposed to be on F815 -- she was supposed to dessert Jin in Sydney, but changed her mind at the last minute. Sun has found out how Jin was to be used, and is royally steamed at her father.

We also know that...

Sun's actess travelled to London with Michael Emerson when he went to do his filming with Widmore.


...so I'm suspecting that Sun has perhaps confronted Widmore in a scene similar to what we saw last night with her father, and from him has learned more of what I suspect will be her father's complicity in the situation. With Widmore's help, she has conspired to ruin her father, and this is the first step.

The money she used was Widmore's, and he's now really the one in control of Paik's company.

I'm wondering if Hurley gave her his $150 million. We know he doesn't want it, and it seems a bit over-the-top for her settlement, even factoring in Jin's death, to be large enough to buy a controlling interest in Paik Industries.

We also have to remember the settlement could be a lot bigger than we are imagining because it simply isn't a crash settlement, but they've been bought into silence. So Ben's backer or Widmore likely paid them to keep their mouth shut - otherwise why not simply tell the story of the island?

That being said, I like the idea of either Hurley's money or Ben's money more than the Oceanic settlement bankrolling the take over.

I was thinking it must have been a massive settlement if she was able to buy controlling shares in Paik Industries! Maybe somewhere in the neightborhood of $500,000,000 or something.

It all depends on which meaning of controlling interest they mean. It can mean ownership of 51% or more of the voting stock, or ownership of the single largest block of voting stock, especially where owners of most of the eligible voting stock do not vote. All Sun would need would be enough stock to outvote the second single largest stock owner. A practical example would be the current Yahoo/Microsoft debacle, where a consortium of pro-Microsoft buyout owners of Yahoo stock control a total of 29% of the voting stock. As a group, they have controlling interest, while as individuals (as fund managers usually) they own anywhere from 3-8% of the voting stock.

The issue with using the second definition is that it's very flimsy, and is the one thing that really bugged me about last night's episode.

Guys, she BORROWED money from FIVE different banks. Paiks cronies say as much. She probably used a big portion of her own settlement as collateral (say $50M or $100M) and the banks financed the rest of the deal.

Think about it: If the bank will give you a mortgage of $500K to buy a house when you only put down $50K as a down payment (10%), how much do you think they will lend you if you have $50M or $100M?

Here is Wikpedias explanation of a "leveraged buyout" - the term for buying a controlling stake in a company using loans from banks:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leveraged_buyout

A leveraged buyout (or LBO, or highly-leveraged transaction (HLT) occurs, when a financial sponsor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financial_sponsor) acquires a controlling interest in a company's equity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ownership_equity) and where a significant percentage of the purchase price is financed through leverage (borrowed money)....Typically the debt portion of a LBO ranges from 50%-85% of the purchase price, but in some very rare cases debt may represent up to 95% of purchase price.

I really like your explanation, it makes the whole scenario believable, my question is though, how would have Paik's cronies known that she borrowed from 5 different banks? The banks wouldn't have known Sun was borrowing to purchase Paik stock, so it wouldn't have been public knowledge that was what she was doing. How would they have known that the purchaser had borrowed from 5 banks? Like I said though, I like your explanation.

I'm wondering if Hurley gave her his $150 million. We know he doesn't want it, and it seems a bit over-the-top for her settlement, even factoring in Jin's death, to be large enough to buy a controlling interest in Paik Industries.

Hurley also thinks the money is cursed, so why would he give it to a friend?

Sun told her father she bought enough shares of Paik Industries to have a controlling interest. Your typical corporation is worth hundreds of millions of dollars right? How much could Sun have got from Oceanic to buy enough shares to control Paik Industries?!! A few million bucks ain't enough, to be sure. Hmm...?

Precisely, an airline would not the cash flow to give hundreds of millions to each "survivor". For Sun to have bought a controlling interest in Paik inc/co... thats a lot of mula.. hmm
But who know's, maybe Oceanic have billions of dollars??
Ben has a lot of money right?? ; )








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Guys, she BORROWED money from FIVE different banks. Paiks cronies say as much. She probably used a big portion of her own settlement as collateral (say $50M or $100M) and the banks financed the rest of the deal.

That is not what was said though. The text read "They used five different banks to buy a controlling interest in our stock." That's a pretty cumbersome way to word an LBO, as a person or group may borrow money for an LBO from one or many banks, but they are essentially loans to the group and the group doing the LBO pays the money they borrowed from the banks, not the banks themselves. The only reason to go through multiple banks/brokers is to hide the identity of the person or group responsible for doing it.

Think about it: If the bank will give you a mortgage of $500K to buy a house when you only put down $50K as a down payment (10%), how much do you think they will lend you if you have $50M or $100M?

A commercial or residential mortgage is apples when compared to the oranges of financing an LBO. Businesses have assets and debts which affect their valuation independently of their market capitilzation, which is what the stock price represents.

The only problem with the LBO theory is that it's not done by people with little to no business experience, which is exactly what Sun is. She's not a business person, nor has she ever been portrayed as anything but the pampered daughter of an industrialist with no job until last night's episode. Even if she had money, an inexperienced person conducting an LBO would be a very high risk and a poor candidate for funding.

I really like your explanation, it makes the whole scenario believable, my question is though, how would have Paik's cronies known that she borrowed from 5 different banks? The banks wouldn't have known Sun was borrowing to purchase Paik stock, so it wouldn't have been public knowledge that was what she was doing. How would they have known that the purchaser had borrowed from 5 banks? Like I said though, I like your explanation.

The laws of finance state that once a stakeholder purchases more than a certain percentage of a company's stock (depends on the state), he/she must clearly indicate their intentions so the best possible price can be realized by the remaning shareholders. Since its the bank thats putting out the money for Sun, the entire transaction would be transparent. Thats how Paik would know how many banks were involved in the stock purchase.
100%
That is not what was said though. The text read "They used five different banks to buy a controlling interest in our stock." That's a pretty cumbersome way to word an LBO, as a person or group may borrow money for an LBO from one or many banks, but they are essentially loans to the group and the group doing the LBO pays the money they borrowed from the banks, not the banks themselves. The only reason to go through multiple banks/brokers is to hide the identity of the person or group responsible for doing it.



A commercial or residential mortgage is apples when compared to the oranges of financing an LBO. Businesses have assets and debts which affect their valuation independently of their market capitilzation, which is what the stock price represents.

The only problem with the LBO theory is that it's not done by people with little to no business experience, which is exactly what Sun is. She's not a business person, nor has she ever been portrayed as anything but the pampered daughter of an industrialist with no job until last night's episode. Even if she had money, an inexperienced person conducting an LBO would be a very high risk and a poor candidate for funding.


Hey man - Im just giving a watered down version of how loans and leverage work so that the largest possible denomintor can understand how a deal like this could transpire. :)

Youre right that an individual wouldnt likely pursue this course of action on their own in real life. Whats important to point out is that a deal like this could easilly happen. There are a million scenarios where Sun could have partnered with a conglomerate of investors (banks, private equity firms, etc) given her significant settlement stake to make a run at buying Paik's company.

The point of my example was simply to show that you dont need $500M in cash to acquire control of a $1B company. And you dont need to do it alone (thats where the banks come in).

Edited to add: I like your point about using multiple banks to hide the identity of the acquirer. :)

I've been suggesting for more than a year now that Paik and Widmore were on opposing sides in a struggle that's been going on in the background of the story.

I've also been suggesting that Paik has been looking for the island and that the watch Jin was supposed to deliver contained a transponder that would have been used to locate the island. Sun wasn't supposed to be on F815 -- she was supposed to dessert Jin in Sydney, but changed her mind at the last minute. Sun has found out how Jin was to be used, and is royally steamed at her father.


...so I'm suspecting that Sun has perhaps confronted Widmore in a scene similar to what we saw last night with her father, and from him has learned more of what I suspect will be her father's complicity in the situation. With Widmore's help, she has conspired to ruin her father, and this is the first step.

The money she used was Widmore's, and he's now really the one in control of Paik's company.

I think you may be on the right track, but could Widmore/Paik actually be allies, and Ben be the one who is "helping" Sun to take over Paik industries?

In any case, I'm glad to read everyone else's suggestions that there's more to this scene, because at face value I wasn't very sympathetic to Sun's motivation.

rjst...I am with you, but ...the possible conspiracy of all of them (the "six") going in on it is interesting...would mean there's more that they know than meets the eye...
plus Hurley coming over to visit Jin's grave all dressed up and looking smug, if I may say so, fits.

I really can't imagine the settlement being big enough to buy a major corporation, although I am sure it was quite genereous- maybe she got Jin's share too. Perhaps her father's company is not worth as much as people might have presumed. I am sure that it was worth quite a bit just not Microsoft etc... I also wondered if Ben might not have been supplying her with money as well as some sort of pr-emeptive strike against Widmore.

Sorry to interrupt the interesting thread, but after 8 pages many people are just repeating each others ideas.

Can everyone please read at least a few pages before posting.

Several ideas are already out there to agree or disagree with, or add something new to.

Summary of plausible points:

1. Agreed with several above that Sun could easily have had substantial assets prior to the plane crash. Her Oceanic settlement money was added to this pre-existing base.

2. Oceanic didn't pay the settlement itself. Businesses carry insurance for this sort of thing, so the insurance company would the bulk if not all of the damanges. That's what insurance is for. Oceanic's cost is limited to a rise in insurance premiums and the collateral PR damage of having a plane crash (which is actually offset somewhat by their positive public approach to greeting the surprise survivors).

3. Someone else had an interest in creating and maintaining a hush story: Charles Widmore. He is the one who planted the hoax plane and told the world how Oceanic 815 crashed. He has a vested interest in maintaining that fiction...even if it requires some funds diverted into O6 bank accounts.

4. Finance is complicated. But with a lot of money, you can wheel and deal yourself into even more money.

I'm actually going to buck some of the posters above and suggest that Sun is not involved with Ben; she is involved with Widmore. I don't have any evidence for that, but from a writer's perspective, it would be interesting if we had Sayid and Ben collaborating on one side, while Sun and Widmore are on the other. Penny and Desmond are trapped in the middle; Jack and Kate will have to choose sides or negotiate between both sides (always keeping Aaron's interests at the forefront); and Hurley plays the role of audience surrogate and conscience. That's a nice dramatic set-up for Season 5, because all of O6 represent a microcosm of the major issues at play.

I truly believe that Oceanic is just a front company for some other grander scheme; perhaps Widmore, perhaps Hanso, etc. Whatever the settlement amount is, it is probably coming from a source that has far greater assets than Oceanic Airlines.

If Sun got Jin's portion of the settlement, does that mean all the dead passenger's families got money? And I can't imagine that Jin's portion would be as large as the survivors.

I could see the survivors getting a larger settlement for the physical and emotional strain as well as the fact that there were out there for 100+ days and Oceanic didn't "bother" to find them (so to speak).

If a company is valued at (for example) 1 million dollars, you don't necessarily have to pay 500,001 to own a controlling interest. The stock isn't literally going to cost what the company's value is. Correct me if I am wrong?

Historically, wrongful death suits against airlines and won by the families of the deceased, award them each about $10M. As horrible as it sounds, this seems to be the most common reward amount. I'm not sure how that reward would measure against that of a survivors since in real life there usually aren't any.

Anyhow IMO $10M is a fair amount to use in the guesswork here.

since hurley no longer wanted his 'jinxed' $, im quite sure that he gave a substantial amount to sun. combine that with the "5" people who helped buy the controlling interest (and that would be the 5 survivors) and suddenly sun has enough $ to buy out dad.

I still don't see any numbers that add up to enough money for Sun to get a controlling interest of a company like that, even with all five's money (and we know they all didn't give her all their money - Kate had a nice house and a nanny for example) and Hurley giving them his whole $150m (which we know he didn't as he gave his parents money).

I assume it will be explained one way or the other though. I hope.

Maybe Penny's her new business partner.

Maybe Penny's her new business partner.

That's certainly possible.

Who knows where her loyalties are at that point in the story timeline; she might hate her father for coming between her and Desmond, she might know Ben is trying to kill her and so be working to defend against that, and how does trying to put Paik down fit into those scenarios?

Maybe Sun contacts Penny, after she gets back, to tell her that both Jin and Desmond were left behind alive... or something. :shrug:

I just think someone like Paik wouldn't be running an enterprise that could be taken over like that.

I think that's what Paik is shouting about, his advisers say that they used 5 banks, A company would protect itself from hostile takeover by controlling how many shares they sell to an individual or company, if it was done by 5 individuals or companies using 5 different banks then the buyout could be secret. only when the shares are signed over and they announce that they have all been bought by the same party does the company release, That's how I read it anyway.

Hurley probably is her "silent" partner.

$$$

A question to the more financially astute contributors to this thread is this: If you were to take a stab in the dark as to the overall stock value of Paik Heavy Industries then what would it be? The closest I could find for a real life South Korean company similar to Paik Heavy Industires is the Hyundai Group, but they spun off their automotive and shipbuilding operations (among others) as separate companies starting in 1997.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyundai_Group

I don't know how much they got from those settlements, but I just wanted to say how happy I was when Sun walked in there and talked to her father like that! That was brilliant.

I thought Sun's mom helped her out. It seems like the wife of a CEO type-personlike Mr. Paik usually can be used a tax shelter for holdings . All she'd have to do is give Sun her share in the company and perhaps Sun bought some as well.

Sun's mom was sooo happy to see her daughter. Perhaps she also blames Paik for the loss of her daughter.

Hurley probably is her "silent" partner.

$$$
He said he gave his money to his parents and even if he gave Sun everything it wouldn't be enough to take over a multi-billion dollar company.

I just think someone like Paik wouldn't be running an enterprise that could be taken over like that.

If it's a public company, anyone could buy shares. Of course Mr. Paik wouldn't be adverse to sending a Jin....err message, to anyone he didn't want buying shares.

If it's a public company, anyone could buy shares. Of course Mr. Paik wouldn't be adverse to sending a Jin....err message, to anyone he didn't want buying shares.
Yeah, hence the use of multiple accounts to hide the fact that someone was buying out all the shares. By the time they even realised what was going on it was over, and that was the moment Sun walked in on them.

48, 151, 623 dollars and 42 cents
i think that would be awesome to tie in hurleys numbers with the settlement amounts,
it would probably throw hurley for his whole psych ward stay
:)

Has anyone been following the Microsoft effort to take over Yahoo? Just because a company is public doesn't mean you can suddenly take it over.

The notion that Sun could take over Paik -- or that anyone could take over his company without him getting wind off it -- is utterly laughable. It was one of the naive and silly pieces of writing imaginable.

Anyone with a rudimentary knowledge of the law realizes that the settlement per survivor would be likely be less an million.

Even if it were $10 million per survivor, that woudn't allow Sun to instantaneously take over Paik.

Nor could a bunch of a dorks like these guys pool their settlements and become takeover artists. Give me a break.

This has been a great season. Ironically, it has contained the two single dumbest pieces of writing -- this and the notion of Kate's trial and aquital -- in the history of the series.

Alex

I've gotta weigh in with those who find this plotline a bit over the top, even in the context of a routinely over-the-top show. Paik Heavy Industries is presented as a multi-billion dollar international corporation. To buy up a controlling interest would have to take a few billion, at least. Even if it were relatively smaller than I might guess, say a market capitalization of only one billion, then it would take over 500 million to buy a controlling interest. Even Hurley doesn't have that kind of money.

Now, if somehow Ben is involved, then that would make it interesting...

Sun told her father she bought enough shares of Paik Industries to have a controlling interest. Your typical corporation is worth hundreds of millions of dollars right? How much could Sun have got from Oceanic to buy enough shares to control Paik Industries?!! A few million bucks ain't enough, to be sure. Hmm...?

Shouldn't you be asking how much did all of them receive from Oceanic?

Shouldn't you be asking how much did all of them receive from Oceanic?

I wasn't assuming that they'd all chip in their money together. It's a possibility, but I didn't assume it to be the case. :huh:
Also, as someone in this thread mentioned, even combined, its probably not enough to get enough shares to control Paik Industries.
I'm guessing now that Sun is in cohorts with Ben, who has got a lot of money and tricks up his sleeve.

Originally Posted by J_Cuz
Kate would get less because she's a convict
Kate would get the same as everyone else. She was legally on the plane as a passenger. Its not like she hijacked it for her ride or anything... :rolleyes:
In addition to getting the same amount, Kate was not a convict (although Sawyer was). Kate was a fugitive. However even if she had been a convict, that would not have been a reason for Oceanic being allowed to reduce her settlement.

I agree that Sun did not receive enough money to accomplish this, even if the other 5 loaned her their settlements and Hurley kicked in his lottery fortune. However as a dramatic moment her confrontation with her father was fun.

Sun buying out Paik industries was just plain ridiculous. It would take hundreds of millions of dollars to do that, given from what we've seen of the company. I couldn't believe what I was watching.

If what you think you saw seems absurd, maybe the absurdity is in your interpretation. This is Lost, and Sun may well be getting money from other unexpected sources...

Sun's actress flew to London with Michael Emerson when he did his secret scene with Alan Dale (Charles Widmore.) It was done because Dale couldn't fly to the US due to his commitments in the UK. If it was important enough to fly someone there to do a scene with him, we should be expecting an important scene between Sun and Widmore, too.

Hint: Widmore seems to have lots and lots of money...

If what you think you saw seems absurd, maybe the absurdity is in your interpretation. This is Lost, and Sun may well be getting money from other unexpected sources...

Sun's actress flew to London with Michael Emerson when he did his secret scene with Alan Dale (Charles Widmore.) It was done because Dale couldn't fly to the US due to his commitments in the UK. If it was important enough to fly someone there to do a scene with him, we should be expecting an important scene between Sun and Widmore, too.

Hint: Widmore seems to have lots and lots of money...

That very well might be true, but that doesn't change how silly it was.

Why would Widmore even need Sun?

Summary of plausible points:

1. Agreed with several above that Sun could easily have had substantial assets prior to the plane crash. Her Oceanic settlement money was added to this pre-existing base.

If that were the case, she would not have had to borrow money from her father to pay off Jin's mom when she blackmailed them, which is why Sun's father made Jin his new enforcer.

2. Oceanic didn't pay the settlement itself. Businesses carry insurance for this sort of thing, so the insurance company would the bulk if not all of the damanges. That's what insurance is for. Oceanic's cost is limited to a rise in insurance premiums and the collateral PR damage of having a plane crash (which is actually offset somewhat by their positive public approach to greeting the surprise survivors).

Who pays is irrelevant. In airplane crashes with fatalities, the average person's life is worth between $2-5 million dollars, whether by settlement or lawsuit. Of course, that's injected reality into Lost, but it's the general rule for the value of a person's life after a plane crash.

3. Someone else had an interest in creating and maintaining a hush story: Charles Widmore. He is the one who planted the hoax plane and told the world how Oceanic 815 crashed. He has a vested interest in maintaining that fiction...even if it requires some funds diverted into O6 bank accounts.

Now that is a very plausible and much more interesting answer than #s 1-2.


I'm actually going to buck some of the posters above and suggest that Sun is not involved with Ben; she is involved with Widmore. I don't have any evidence for that, but from a writer's perspective, it would be interesting if we had Sayid and Ben collaborating on one side, while Sun and Widmore are on the other. Penny and Desmond are trapped in the middle; Jack and Kate will have to choose sides or negotiate between both sides (always keeping Aaron's interests at the forefront); and Hurley plays the role of audience surrogate and conscience. That's a nice dramatic set-up for Season 5, because all of O6 represent a microcosm of the major issues at play.

That is also very interesting; pitting survivors against each other to further the story based upon the side they choose off-island.

That very well might be true, but that doesn't change how silly it was.

Why would Widmore even need Sun?

Once again, I'd suggest that if what you thought you saw seems silly, then there's a chance that the silliness is in your interpretation. Without seeing the entire story surrounding the event, we really can't judge its level of "silliness." But it should be easy enough to set up a set of circumstances where Sun and Widmore form a mutually beneficial alliance. I'll just suggest a few possibilities. A Good Writer could spin out a dozen better ones...

For Sun, the motivations could range from the obvious to the complex. It could be as simple as wanting revenge on her father to as complex as wanting answers to her father's complicity in the matter, which I'm suspecting are deeper than we've seen.

For Widmore, the alliance could also have a range of possibilities, from something as simple as needing an insider to help accomplish a hostile takeover, to something more Widmore-like, such as wanting the psychological dominance of using Paik's own child (and a woman, no less...) in accomplishing his defeat of Paik. (It's just my impression, but I don't expect that Paik would feel degraded if Widmore simply left a faucet running in his presence. It would require something more personal. This could be it...)

And depending on how parts of the story we haven't yet seen could be set up, there are many other ways to accomplish such an alliance...